:00:36. > :00:39.Hello, and welcome to Spotlight Special. As ever, we have invited
:00:39. > :00:44.an impressive panel of movers and shakers to discuss the issues of
:00:44. > :00:48.the day with our studio audience. Arlene Foster is the Minister for
:00:48. > :00:58.enterprise, trade and investment at Stormont and a DUP MLA for
:00:58. > :00:59.
:00:59. > :01:04.Fermanagh and south Tyrone. Raymond McCartney is an MLA, Mike Nesbitt
:01:04. > :01:08.is his party's economy spokesman and a former Victims Commissioner.
:01:08. > :01:14.Conall McDevitt lost out to his fellow South Belfast MLA by a
:01:14. > :01:18.narrow head in last weekend's SDLP leadership race. Is his party's
:01:18. > :01:21.spokesman on policing and education and finally, David McWilliams is a
:01:21. > :01:25.Dublin-based economist, broadcaster and best-selling author whose views
:01:25. > :01:30.on the demise of the Celtic tiger and the crisis in the eurozone area
:01:31. > :01:38.are widely sought in Ireland and beyond. That's our line-up for
:01:38. > :01:45.tonight's Spotlight Special. APPLAUSE.
:01:45. > :01:49.Now, as always, tonight's questions have been chosen by members of our
:01:49. > :01:54.audience but you can also have your say at home. You can text your
:01:54. > :02:00.comments throughout the programme. You can also phone and e-mail us
:02:00. > :02:06.and you can tweet comments to us. The details are on the screen.
:02:06. > :02:11.Calls cost up to 5p per minute from most landlines, calls from mobiles
:02:11. > :02:16.may cost more. Our first question is from Karl, who is a student from
:02:16. > :02:23.Belfast. Given the situation in Europe and Ireland what's more
:02:23. > :02:28.likely, a united Ireland or united Europe? OK, off the back, of course,
:02:28. > :02:33.of financial turmoil in Europe and news this evening that the Italian
:02:33. > :02:39.Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, is to resign once he gets a package
:02:39. > :02:42.for tackling the Italian situation agreed in the parliament. Arlene
:02:42. > :02:48.Foster, that really has just happened very recently, within the
:02:48. > :02:52.last few hours. What about the wider situation, and implications
:02:52. > :02:55.for us on this island. United Ireland or Europe? I don't think
:02:55. > :03:01.either is going to happen any time soon, I don't think either are
:03:01. > :03:05.going to happen, because the united Europe ideal came about through the
:03:05. > :03:12.federalism issue and I am glad to say that the UK stayed out of the
:03:12. > :03:16.eurozone. There are many here who wanted the kufplt to go into the
:03:16. > :03:21.eurozone, we have the stability of sterling at present. What you are
:03:22. > :03:24.seeing across the eurozone are countries strugglingling with the
:03:24. > :03:27.Sovereign debt their countries have and we should be concerned about
:03:27. > :03:31.that here in in Northern Ireland because it will have an impact on
:03:31. > :03:36.us here whether Greece defaults, whether the Italians default,
:03:36. > :03:39.because there are a lot of companies who are - a lot of banks
:03:39. > :03:42.that have invested in those countries and that will have an
:03:42. > :03:46.impact on us here in Northern Ireland. A lot of our companies do
:03:46. > :03:50.business with those countries as well and that will have an impact
:03:50. > :03:54.in relation to our export strategy which I have been pushing very
:03:54. > :03:58.strongly, as well. Aren't we all being dragged into the middle, into
:03:58. > :04:01.the European centre, if not politically, certainly
:04:01. > :04:03.economically? Under the control, effectively of Germany? Well, I
:04:03. > :04:06.think it's very interesting to see what our Prime Minister was saying
:04:06. > :04:11.today about Germany and the fact that the Germans are standing back
:04:11. > :04:14.from the eurozone bail-out and very much a need for Germany to get
:04:14. > :04:19.involved in that eurozone bail-out, to take responsibility. Because
:04:19. > :04:24.Germany is the main player in all of those interests right across
:04:24. > :04:28.Europe, whether it's Greece or Italy. But you are right t will
:04:28. > :04:31.have an impact in Northern Ireland, but we should be glad we are not in
:04:31. > :04:35.the eurozone, we will be affected by everything going on there and
:04:35. > :04:37.that's to the second part of the question in relation to the chill
:04:37. > :04:41.wind we have been feeling in Northern Ireland, in respect of
:04:41. > :04:44.what's happened in the Republic of Ireland, be that from our small
:04:44. > :04:49.businesses feeling very sore about not being able to export and get,
:04:49. > :04:51.as you know, it's our closest export destination, and one that we
:04:51. > :04:55.have been feeling sore about because a lot of those small
:04:55. > :04:59.companies haven't been able to export or indeed haven't been paid
:04:59. > :05:02.by companies in the Republic of Ireland and it is a huge difficulty
:05:02. > :05:05.for us, never mind the access to finance and the banking
:05:05. > :05:11.difficulties as well which David will want to touch on, I am sure.
:05:11. > :05:14.want to hear from Conall McDevitt. United Ireland, Europe? We know how
:05:14. > :05:17.we will get a united Ireland, because there is going to be
:05:17. > :05:23.referendum and if the people vote they'll have it. The real issue
:05:23. > :05:26.around Europe is there's never been a greater need for Europe to unite,
:05:26. > :05:29.for Governments to unite in a common purpose, to lay down a new
:05:29. > :05:33.law across Europe, whether it's inside the eurozone or whether it's
:05:33. > :05:36.on the fringes of the eurozone like the British pound is and this is
:05:36. > :05:40.all it is, on the fringes and that new law needs to be this: It needs
:05:40. > :05:43.to be that never again will we allow governments, national
:05:43. > :05:47.governments or a union like the European Union to be run through
:05:47. > :05:50.the back door by corrupt bankers. Because that is what has us where
:05:50. > :05:56.we are. What has us where we are is not a failure for once of politics,
:05:56. > :06:00.it's a failure of desperately bad and greedy banking. A financial
:06:00. > :06:06.system that corrupted itself and brought, as of tonight, at least
:06:06. > :06:10.three governments down, possibly more. Surely it's a political
:06:10. > :06:12.failure, managed badly by politicians across Europe. We have
:06:12. > :06:17.lost two Prime Minister this is week alone in Greece and now Italy.
:06:17. > :06:20.You can't say it's not a political failure, it is. Let me be honest,
:06:20. > :06:23.the regulatory system failed, of course it did, and the UK
:06:23. > :06:27.Government had this light touch regulation in London to attract the
:06:27. > :06:32.world's biggest banks and it failed Europe. The UK Government's light
:06:32. > :06:35.touch regulation didn't just fail the UK, it failed the whole of the
:06:35. > :06:40.European Union but the real corruption at the heart of this is
:06:40. > :06:44.outside of Government, it's in the back offices of money trading and
:06:44. > :06:48.other types of trading and it isn't until governments unite and resolve
:06:48. > :06:51.to change the rules of the game so as we can unite Europe around its
:06:51. > :06:57.people, rather than around banks that we won't come out of this mess.
:06:57. > :07:00.David McWilliams? Three issues going on. There's an economic
:07:00. > :07:04.problem, a debt problem, and a leadership problem. The economic
:07:04. > :07:09.problem is there's no growth in Europe. Growth slowed down. Once
:07:09. > :07:12.growth slows down all bets are off. Because you can't pay your debt.
:07:12. > :07:17.Consequently then off growth problem, plus a debt problem and
:07:17. > :07:20.that's typically fixed by political leadership, but what you have with
:07:21. > :07:26.respect to Germany and France and the rest of Europe is no political
:07:26. > :07:29.leadership. So you take those together, you then have people like
:07:29. > :07:33.Papandreou saying if we have no leadership in Europe why don't we
:07:33. > :07:38.go to people in Greece and the elite in Europe, France and Germany,
:07:38. > :07:43.show their true colours last Thursday by saying no way will we
:07:43. > :07:46.go to the people most affected by these decisions. So, for many
:07:46. > :07:49.people, both let's say in the Republic of Ireland and other
:07:49. > :07:55.European members, who was an unusual move last Thursday because
:07:55. > :07:59.what it did do for the first time is Sarkozy and Merkel said if you
:07:59. > :08:04.want an opinion on this Greece, the opinion has to be are you going to
:08:05. > :08:08.be in the euro or not? Rather than defuse the situation, they actually
:08:08. > :08:14.amplified the situation. Now, what the politicians don't want people
:08:14. > :08:20.to know is that at every single phase of this European crisis,
:08:20. > :08:24.every rescue package is actually a bail-out of private, professional
:08:24. > :08:34.investors by taxpayers, the vast majority of whom never took out the
:08:34. > :08:34.
:08:34. > :08:38.loans in the first place. APPLAUSE. The minute you are afraid of
:08:39. > :08:43.democracy, the people, it freaks out others. For example, the
:08:43. > :08:46.financial markets who say hold on a second f they're not prepared to go
:08:46. > :08:50.to the people, what we are going to have is yet another shunting on of
:08:50. > :08:53.the debt to somebody else. Does that all mean, very briefly, that
:08:53. > :08:58.we are moving towards greater European Union? Whether we like it
:08:58. > :09:04.or don't like it, is that an inevitability? There's no appetite
:09:04. > :09:12.in Europe, popular appetite, for greater fiscal integration. We have
:09:12. > :09:15.had four plebicites in years. Netherlands, France, Ireland all
:09:15. > :09:19.voted against further integration. There is a sense and disconnect
:09:19. > :09:22.between the top of Europe and the people and there is a sense on most
:09:22. > :09:28.people that they don't want further integration and that's before the
:09:28. > :09:33.crisis. Think about how Germany would vote if asked do you want to
:09:33. > :09:37.write an open cheque indefinitely for Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal,
:09:37. > :09:41.the Republic of Ireland? It's not going to happen. What does it mean
:09:41. > :09:46.for people in Northern Ireland, in terms of where they should be
:09:46. > :09:50.looking at the moment? Those want to look towards London, hitch their
:09:50. > :09:55.wagon to the Bank of England and to the Treasury in London. There are
:09:55. > :10:02.are others who say we should be looking at Dublin. That would take
:10:02. > :10:07.a serious doze of of nose-holding for a lot of people. I like that
:10:07. > :10:11.expression! Of all the things that Gordon Brown did, and he did many
:10:11. > :10:17.stupid things, one of the deliverest things was to do a
:10:17. > :10:20.classic Whitehall ruse on the euro. Put up five tests and - he played
:10:20. > :10:24.for time, he did the sensible thing, let's figure out how this works out.
:10:24. > :10:28.What he has been vindicated in is that the first crisis, major crisis
:10:28. > :10:32.of the euro, has not been handled well. I believe that Britain is
:10:32. > :10:38.better outside it. OK. Mike Nesbitt, you are your party's economy
:10:38. > :10:42.spokesman. I believe it's moving in a different direction to what we
:10:42. > :10:46.are trying to do in Northern Ireland, it's a clash what we do is
:10:46. > :10:52.he Assembly is legislate, and enable people to be different and
:10:52. > :10:56.diverse. Europe seems to want to homogenise everybody and I don't
:10:56. > :11:01.think the people of Europe want it any more, if they did. If you came
:11:01. > :11:04.down to my constituency, you wouldn't find a single fisherman
:11:04. > :11:07.who was grateful for what Europe does for the fishing industry.
:11:07. > :11:11.Would you be pushed to find a single farmer and we have some of
:11:11. > :11:15.the best farmland in the whole of Europe Europe who is grateful to
:11:15. > :11:18.the European Union and we get something like �300 million a year
:11:18. > :11:21.out of Europe for single farm payments. We also get a lot of
:11:21. > :11:26.money for cohesion. We have had three peace programmes worth
:11:26. > :11:29.hundreds of millions of euros. Yet, the appreciation of Europe isn't
:11:29. > :11:37.there, so there is a fundamental issue and perhaps Europe would do
:11:37. > :11:43.better to do a little less, better. Do you separate out the political
:11:43. > :11:47.unity or what David referred to as fiscal unity, they're not terribly
:11:47. > :11:51.closely linked? People used to look at Europe and say they were linked
:11:51. > :11:56.and it was Germany, France, Spain, Italy who were all pulling in the
:11:56. > :12:02.same direction and it is now abundantly clear they are not.
:12:02. > :12:12.Let's go back to the question, it's about what is more likely here, a
:12:12. > :12:26.
:12:26. > :12:35.The opportunity for Europe uniting is diminishing by the day. What has
:12:35. > :12:40.been thrown up his around economic sovereignty. The sovereign
:12:40. > :12:46.governments are being undermined by events outside their control. It is
:12:46. > :12:56.important that that issue is raised. Who has the right to choose the
:12:56. > :12:58.
:12:58. > :13:08.political leadership? That should be one of the issues that we
:13:08. > :13:09.
:13:09. > :13:13.address. The people should be sovereign. They should decide.
:13:13. > :13:21.you think that that either of government is weakened because they
:13:21. > :13:24.had to take money from the UK government? They are weakened
:13:24. > :13:29.because in a time of austerity they are going to bail out other
:13:29. > :13:38.countries. Instead of pumping the money back into the economy the am
:13:38. > :13:43.now going to give it to other countries. A quick word? Regarding
:13:43. > :13:50.the bailout from Britain, the problem for Britain was that one of
:13:50. > :13:56.the banks have a high exposure and the calculation was it was better
:13:56. > :14:02.to make a down-payment on that and hopefully get it back than write it
:14:02. > :14:07.all off. It was good business for the Treasury. I want to get some
:14:07. > :14:17.views from the audience. Let us go to the person who asked the
:14:17. > :14:17.
:14:17. > :14:26.question. Some people are washing rather than seeing what is more
:14:26. > :14:36.likely. It shows there is a clear divide in Northern Irish politics.
:14:36. > :14:42.
:14:42. > :14:47.Thank you. Of the two options, I'd do not think either will happen. In
:14:47. > :14:57.Northern Ireland we need to create jobs so that we can control our own
:14:57. > :15:00.
:15:00. > :15:08.destiny. Two quick comment. There are 27 countries in the European
:15:08. > :15:14.Union. All countries in this heat union it should Shea goods - back
:15:14. > :15:19.trade goods with all other countries. This is why the European
:15:19. > :15:29.Union is in crisis. All the countries are not working together.
:15:29. > :15:30.
:15:30. > :15:40.Thank you. My cousin has lived in Greece for many years. They say
:15:40. > :15:46.that prices have gone up ever since the joined Europe. Next question.
:15:46. > :15:52.Can we afford to give 60 million to encourage prison officers to
:15:52. > :15:57.retire? That package was announced today. Some people think it is
:15:57. > :16:04.attractive. The idea is to get people to take voluntary redundancy.
:16:04. > :16:11.Raymond McCartney - �60 million, can we afford it? It is something
:16:11. > :16:17.which we have to do. It is well known that there is a need for
:16:17. > :16:27.reform. It is well accepted across northern Ireland that the cost of
:16:27. > :16:27.
:16:27. > :16:33.other prisons is too high. This will ensure that we have a prison
:16:33. > :16:39.service fit for the 21st century. For too long the emphasis on our
:16:39. > :16:45.prisons was around security. For too long there was no
:16:45. > :16:52.rehabilitation processes. We find that many people who leave our
:16:52. > :17:00.prisons are reoffending. In the long term a you are laying down the
:17:00. > :17:03.foundations. There will be long- term gains. You see �60 million is
:17:03. > :17:09.worth paying if it achieves what you see needs to be achieved?
:17:09. > :17:12.real terms that is the price that needs to be paid. Some people may
:17:12. > :17:17.feel that is too generous and there is an idea at around that. But the
:17:17. > :17:27.package is necessary if we are going to reform the system. That
:17:27. > :17:33.reform is necessary. What if enough prison officers do not volunteer to
:17:33. > :17:39.leave under this package? It is wrong to report the size what may
:17:39. > :17:44.happen. There are a number of months for prison staff to take up
:17:44. > :17:50.the offer. If the offer is not taken up then we find ourselves in
:17:50. > :17:54.another place. Reduce support compulsory redundancies? We need to
:17:55. > :18:04.change the culture of our prisons. If the ball on to the process does
:18:05. > :18:08.
:18:08. > :18:13.not work then we find ourselves in a new situation. OK. The members of
:18:13. > :18:17.the Prison Service did suffer a lot in the last 29 years. There are
:18:17. > :18:23.many members of the Prison Service today who are facing threats and a
:18:23. > :18:30.fat to move homes. If the scheme is to work it has to be unattractive
:18:30. > :18:37.scheme. Initial proposals were not attractive. We believe that this is
:18:37. > :18:40.moving in the right direction. We believe that a voluntary scheme is
:18:40. > :18:47.the right way. We would not support a compulsory scheme. We believe
:18:48. > :18:54.that people must want to move on. We do not want to be in a situation,
:18:54. > :18:58.a situation that we found within the police, and that is the
:18:58. > :19:08.situation of being short staffed. It is important that we have the
:19:08. > :19:14.staff. You were not short staffed. There was not their experience
:19:14. > :19:24.there. You are saying no compulsory redundancies? It has to be
:19:24. > :19:32.attractive to facilitate officers to move. A lot of teachers who have
:19:32. > :19:38.been made redundant this year will look at this package and wonder.
:19:38. > :19:48.is not the same. We all agree that reform is needed. But this seems to
:19:48. > :19:51.
:19:51. > :19:57.be building the lily. This is a political deal. A lot of people
:19:57. > :20:01.will wonder if that is fair. Do you not think that there is a
:20:01. > :20:06.recognition that these officers have lived under for the last 14
:20:06. > :20:11.years? This is 2011. Do you not accept that there are still person
:20:11. > :20:17.under threat in the prison service today? I never said that there were
:20:17. > :20:23.not people. We have to approach all these decisions with fairness and
:20:23. > :20:27.equity. That is what we're doing. If you are facing cutbacks,
:20:27. > :20:32.teachers are losing their jobs, they will not get this deal. We
:20:32. > :20:38.will take a close look at this. I am not comfortable sitting here
:20:38. > :20:43.looking at a very enhanced package for one small section of the public
:20:43. > :20:51.service when other sections of the public service are not getting this
:20:51. > :20:59.deal. David but Williams, it is also an economic question, because
:20:59. > :21:03.the question is can we afford to give �60 million? Money is involved.
:21:03. > :21:10.Sometimes when you come to Belfast to do not expect that answers you
:21:10. > :21:16.get. The Sinn Fein spokesperson was saying it is a good thing to
:21:16. > :21:22.eradicate the memory of the Prison Board. Arlene said something
:21:22. > :21:27.similar. They are on the same side for different reasons. I am not
:21:27. > :21:35.sure if you can afford it, but when I look at the rest of the UK and
:21:35. > :21:40.the austerity that is being imposed there, it would seem to be that to
:21:40. > :21:47.give special service to one particular group is at odds with
:21:47. > :21:54.what is happening to the rest of you. Teachers were not targeted by
:21:54. > :22:02.the IRA. The ought school bus driver was targeted by the IRA. --
:22:02. > :22:10.the occasional school bus driver. A friend of mine had a very bad
:22:10. > :22:14.stroke over 10 years ago and that has never been recognised as
:22:14. > :22:19.following riots duty in the Maze prison. As we make this transition
:22:19. > :22:25.we should be as generous as possible to those who put
:22:25. > :22:32.themselves in harm's way. Is this a generous? It is less expensive than
:22:32. > :22:42.the Patten proposals. I feel sorry for prison -- for police officers
:22:42. > :22:43.
:22:43. > :22:48.who will look enviously at this deal. What we have not yet seen his
:22:48. > :22:52.that some of the people who take this deal will only be 50 years old.
:22:52. > :22:56.One of the things that the police deal recognised was the need for
:22:56. > :23:06.rehabilitation and retraining. I would like to see that extended to
:23:06. > :23:08.
:23:08. > :23:15.prison officers. That would entail education and a mental help. This
:23:15. > :23:21.is the 24th anniversary of the Enniskillen bombing. You cannot
:23:21. > :23:30.just airbrushed this. For too long there was an emphasis on security
:23:30. > :23:40.policy. Why? Because of the IRA. The reason I said there was an
:23:40. > :23:40.
:23:40. > :23:49.emphasis on security is because the we are prisons were run, their debt
:23:49. > :23:53.ratios were the highest. But you were responsible for it.
:23:53. > :24:03.recognise why there was a security issue in prisons. That has now
:24:03. > :24:07.
:24:07. > :24:16.moved on. We cannot perpetuate that situation. An independent report
:24:16. > :24:21.has accepted that. If we do not change this we are wasting money
:24:21. > :24:25.every day of the week. I want to go back to Declan who also had an
:24:25. > :24:30.economic emphasis on his question. What do you make of the answers?
:24:30. > :24:37.There are a number of points. There is a projection for the next 10
:24:37. > :24:44.years. Projections can go anywhere. The last projection was that the
:24:44. > :24:52.economy was doing well and good for we are now. 60 million could be
:24:52. > :24:56.better spent on a dementia unit. We have no money for suicide awareness.
:24:56. > :25:03.Schools are being closed. This is an issue that has to be tackled and
:25:03. > :25:07.it will cost money. There is nothing to say that the prisoners
:25:07. > :25:17.who come out will not reoffend. This idea that every prison officer
:25:17. > :25:21.will be dead wrong -- dead on. There is a discrepancy between the
:25:22. > :25:24.private sector and the public sector. Thousands of people in the
:25:24. > :25:30.private sector are losing their jobs and there is no enhancement
:25:30. > :25:35.for those people. All we are hearing about his exceptional
:25:35. > :25:45.circumstances. Every unique family that loses a job is in exceptional
:25:45. > :25:46.
:25:46. > :25:50.circumstances. Is that there be to treat it? I feel sorry for all the
:25:50. > :25:59.prison officers that died and were injured. At �60 million is very
:25:59. > :26:03.high. It is small compared to what was paid for the policing issue.
:26:03. > :26:13.would pay for a hospital. You do not be it is acceptable question
:26:13. > :26:18.
:26:18. > :26:26.mark I do not. We will leave it there. Now to our next question.
:26:26. > :26:32.straightforward question. Does storm and need an opposition?
:26:32. > :26:39.of as are probably wondering what Stormont is for these days. We have
:26:39. > :26:45.still not seen any decent legislation after six months. I
:26:45. > :26:49.lost their head with this today! What I worry about is the fact that
:26:49. > :26:55.there seems to be not enough accountability. There seems to be
:26:55. > :27:01.not enough power with the people. The time has come, because when we
:27:01. > :27:06.next go to elect an Assembly, the time has come to have an honest
:27:06. > :27:09.debate about a system that is capable of being accountable. We
:27:09. > :27:13.can talk about that in the years ahead. But I do think we are
:27:13. > :27:17.reaching the point where we need to get more and to storm it than just
:27:17. > :27:23.stability. In order to get more out of storeman than just stability, to
:27:23. > :27:33.get it to work for the people, it will need to be better held to
:27:33. > :27:33.
:27:33. > :27:37.Your new partier leader -- party leader said that the regime at the
:27:37. > :27:41.moment, which is headed up by Sinn Fein and the DUP is like Afghan
:27:41. > :27:46.warLords dividing up the spoils, was he right, is it as bad as that?
:27:46. > :27:50.A lot of us inside the Assembly really do feel that this is a two-
:27:50. > :27:58.party Government with another three parties being put in there to make
:27:58. > :28:03.the two big ones lock good. If I could finish by the reality of life
:28:03. > :28:07.at Stormont. We don't have seven years into devolution a strategy to
:28:07. > :28:10.tackle sectarianism. The answer is opposition. Not necessarily, we
:28:10. > :28:13.have the system we have, Mark, that's the system the people voted
:28:13. > :28:17.for when they voted in the Good Friday Agreement F we are going to
:28:17. > :28:20.change the system to be fair to us all we need to agree to change it
:28:20. > :28:23.all of us, what I am saying is I am not afraid of having an honest
:28:23. > :28:26.debate about getting a better system than the one we have today
:28:26. > :28:29.but we are not going to run away from our responsibilities and our
:28:29. > :28:33.duty and our opportunity to represent our people around that
:28:33. > :28:36.table. Might that new system involved you and the Ulster
:28:36. > :28:40.Unionists and maybe the Alliance Party forming an official
:28:40. > :28:43.opposition? It Might involve me and other people forming the Government
:28:43. > :28:48.and it might be a more accountable Government and one capable of
:28:48. > :28:53.agreeing a programme before it sits down. You would need to win an
:28:53. > :28:56.awful lot more seats. Not one like this one which six months in
:28:56. > :29:00.doesn't have a programme for Government. Mike Nesbitt? I don't
:29:00. > :29:03.want to be in opposition, I don't want to the Ulster Unionists to be
:29:03. > :29:06.in opposition, the principle is good. 13 years ago the aim of the
:29:06. > :29:12.Good Friday Agreement was to be inclusive, to get everybody
:29:12. > :29:17.exclusively into the political process and to do that you had to
:29:17. > :29:20.build an exceedingly big political cake. And that, I believe has
:29:20. > :29:23.worked 13 years on. The institutions are pretty stable. But
:29:23. > :29:26.they have yet to really deliver, particularly on the big ticket
:29:26. > :29:31.issues like the sports stadium, like the reform of public
:29:31. > :29:37.administration. So, if it's all stable and it's mature, the logical
:29:37. > :29:40.next step is to say we will go from mandatory coalition to volume
:29:40. > :29:44.Torrey -- voluntary coalition with opposition T works in just about
:29:44. > :29:47.every country in the world, why not for stphus why are we so better
:29:47. > :29:50.than everybody else we want to do it differently? So, that's an
:29:50. > :29:55.interesting thought, Arlene, is it? You know, I am sitting here
:29:55. > :29:58.listening to the Ulster Unionist party and the SDLP who gave us
:29:58. > :30:04.mandatory coalition in - these were the two guys that created the
:30:04. > :30:07.system. In actual fact, the DUP had to take these guys to court to get
:30:08. > :30:11.Ministerial papers back in 2001, so it's very interesting listening to
:30:11. > :30:14.these two guys who when it was working for them, when they were
:30:14. > :30:17.the two largest parties they were happy with it, they were OK with it.
:30:17. > :30:21.Now they're the two smaller parties, hold on a second, we are not that
:30:21. > :30:27.happy with it. You know, the DUP's been asking for reform of the
:30:27. > :30:30.system since 1998. We asked for reform in 1998, at the time of the
:30:30. > :30:34.Belfast Agreement. We wanted more accountability in the Belfast
:30:34. > :30:37.Agreement. It's why we went to the Leeds Castle talks, it's why we
:30:37. > :30:41.went to the St Andrews agreement and brought about accountability
:30:41. > :30:44.through the system of Government here and can I say, there are far
:30:44. > :30:49.too many Government departments as a result of the Belfast Agreement,
:30:49. > :30:51.there are too many MLAs as a result of the agreement. Let's get it
:30:51. > :30:53.sorted out, let's get a smaller Government for Northern Ireland
:30:53. > :30:56.because we need a smaller Government for Northern Ireland and
:30:56. > :31:00.the people want a smaller Government for Northern Ireland. I
:31:00. > :31:05.am not disagreeing but I am saying the hypocrisy of you two talking
:31:05. > :31:08.about... Hypocrisy from the DUP... I don't know what you are laughing
:31:08. > :31:12.about. The question asked does Stormont need an opposition, well I
:31:12. > :31:17.think that's the question for those who want to form opposition. But as
:31:17. > :31:20.the system is designed, then it doesn't appear to be any place for
:31:20. > :31:24.opposition, if people want to go into opposition that's their choice,
:31:24. > :31:29.but it's interesting in the first number of years and Arlene has said
:31:29. > :31:32.this, there was never any talk of need for opposition or encouraging
:31:32. > :31:38.parties to go into opposition. The only thing that's changed in the
:31:38. > :31:41.intervening years is that the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists are no
:31:41. > :31:46.longer... It's because of the way you are operating the system.
:31:46. > :31:49.what happened Mark, and this has been exposed, at a time when this
:31:50. > :31:56.was designed, the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists thought they they
:31:56. > :31:59.would be the lead parties. The people have decided that the DUP
:31:59. > :32:02.and Sinn Fein are now the lead parties and these two parties just
:32:02. > :32:05.don't seem to want to accept it. What they do is they carp from the
:32:05. > :32:10.sides F they want to go into opposition, the opportunity is
:32:10. > :32:19.there. What else changed? Do you not remember those years ago the
:32:19. > :32:29.DUP said they would never, never, speak to you? Revert to type, type
:32:29. > :32:30.
:32:30. > :32:34.- revert to type, Mike. Final point from Raymond, then David. The need
:32:34. > :32:37.for for an opposition is the choice and desire of the parties. If the
:32:37. > :32:42.two parties, or any party want to go into opposition they can do it.
:32:42. > :32:46.The only thing that's changed up to March 2007 is the fact that the two
:32:46. > :32:50.parties on my right and left are no longer in control and they felt
:32:50. > :32:54.felt when they designed the agreement that this would put them
:32:54. > :32:56.at the centre for ever, the people have decided differently. David?
:32:56. > :33:00.Obviously, a little bit of a spectator here in this regard T
:33:00. > :33:06.seems to me that from the question that was asked that the system has
:33:06. > :33:09.been quite successful, but not successful enough. Quite successful
:33:09. > :33:13.in bringing stable institutions, but not successful enough in going
:33:13. > :33:16.to the next phase, you know, to answer your question, every
:33:16. > :33:19.parliamentary democracy needs an opposition and a functioning
:33:19. > :33:24.opposition and an opposition that works and is a viable alternative,
:33:24. > :33:28.that's the nature of the beast. But Northern Ireland seems to me it
:33:28. > :33:34.still is a special case, that if you are saying we have got this far,
:33:34. > :33:38.but maybe to go to a voluntary coalition basis is a step too far
:33:38. > :33:41.that in fact the stability isn't as stable as we think. So, to come
:33:41. > :33:45.back to think it's a sign of success, but on the other hand,
:33:45. > :33:51.it's a sign that things aren't successful enough. OK. Thank you.
:33:51. > :33:56.Let's hear from Mark. I think it does need an opposition, we are
:33:56. > :34:00.talking about delivery and efficiency and I think
:34:00. > :34:06.accountability was another thing, I think Stormont opposition would
:34:06. > :34:11.deliver that. Thank you very much. The gentleman there. You have got
:34:11. > :34:15.the UUP and SDLP talking about the evolution of the St Andrews
:34:15. > :34:19.agreement. Should the priority not be to implement the agreement first
:34:19. > :34:24.and ensure there's an Irish language act introduced? Slightly
:34:24. > :34:28.off the subject, but thank you. I want to stay with the audience.
:34:28. > :34:31.don't think we need opposition, I think we need co-operation and if
:34:31. > :34:34.we had we had co-operation maybe Northern Ireland would benefit.
:34:34. > :34:40.APPLAUSE. You would like to see the parties involved in the Government
:34:40. > :34:42.working more closely together? We have a set-up where we can co-
:34:42. > :34:48.operate and now all of a sudden you want an opposition. Co-operate
:34:48. > :34:52.together and we might all benefit. OK. Thank you. I feel what we need
:34:52. > :34:56.from the DUP and Sinn Fein also is not so much - they've been given
:34:56. > :35:00.this power, but could you please exercise the power with a degree of
:35:00. > :35:04.dignity and not lecture to us. Arlene, you are sitting lecturing
:35:04. > :35:09.tonight. More dignity in the part you have been given would go down
:35:09. > :35:13.fantastically. In what fashion? You are talking about the electorate of
:35:13. > :35:17.Northern Ireland who returned... The point about the hypocrisy, I
:35:17. > :35:20.think the hypocrisy of the DUP for all those years, I am sure Mike
:35:20. > :35:24.Nesbitt can give me exact years, that you were outside of the
:35:24. > :35:30.process, now that you are at the centre everything must revolve
:35:30. > :35:33.around you. It's stomach-wrenching at times. A quick response. I have
:35:33. > :35:36.seen this position, I have a unique position because I have seen it
:35:36. > :35:41.from both sides, I was in the Ulster Unionist party, I have been
:35:41. > :35:45.in the DUP. The The Ulster Unionist party Minister comes to meetings
:35:45. > :35:47.with us, at our choice, at our choice every time there's an
:35:47. > :35:51.executive meeting the Ulster Unionist Minister comes to our
:35:51. > :35:55.discussions. Do you not think that's inclusive of us? Yet there's
:35:55. > :35:59.no acknowledgement of that at all. No acknowledgement. That's because
:35:59. > :36:07.the Ulster Unionist want to make party political points in relation
:36:07. > :36:10.to the issue. Sinn Fein, DUP, the two largest parties. What are they
:36:10. > :36:16.frightened of in an opposition? Thank you very much indeed. Thank
:36:16. > :36:20.you for the question. Next question is from Kathy who is a PR manager
:36:20. > :36:24.from Belfast. I would like to ask the panel in the present economic
:36:24. > :36:27.climate do the panel feel that spending a million to bring the
:36:27. > :36:31.music awards to Belfast was justified? We will hear from Arlene
:36:31. > :36:36.in a moment or two. Arlene is involved in tourism in Northern
:36:36. > :36:40.Ireland, and has responsibility for that and various organisations
:36:40. > :36:46.within her department were a part of that. Let's hear from David
:36:46. > :36:51.McWilliams. I don't know where you were at the weekend? My perspective
:36:51. > :36:57.was framed by my 11-year-old daughter who when she heard I was
:36:57. > :37:07.going to Belfast thought I was meeting lady Gaga. She was meant to
:37:07. > :37:08.
:37:08. > :37:13.be on the panel! I think it is money very well spent actually. I
:37:13. > :37:19.think that what it does to the pwrapb of Belfast -- of Belfast, to
:37:19. > :37:23.project the brand out to a very, very wide audience, executed by MTV,
:37:23. > :37:28.probably one of the most commercially savvy television
:37:28. > :37:33.operations in the world, does untold positives that you can't
:37:33. > :37:37.quantify. Countries like Ireland, where it's north or south, we have
:37:38. > :37:43.to deal in the world of soft power. That's the power of persuasion, the
:37:43. > :37:47.power of changing people's minds, the power of brand, the power of
:37:47. > :37:52.perceptions. What sort of place is that? Now, for Northern Ireland to
:37:52. > :37:56.have catapulted from the Northern Ireland, the image was 20 years ago
:37:56. > :38:00.- actually the image didn't change for a long time, to being a place
:38:00. > :38:05.where, not only does the awards happen, but all these people are
:38:05. > :38:09.happy to come, I believe will reap a rich dividend for you in the same
:38:10. > :38:13.way as Dublin over the years changed its image. We got enormous
:38:13. > :38:21.amounts of tourism in, enormous amounts of different types of
:38:21. > :38:25.industries in and all this very soft, but very explicit changing in
:38:25. > :38:32.the image of Northern Ireland and Belfast is an enormous positive
:38:32. > :38:36.that you cannot quantify. So worth the money? Absolutely. I think it's
:38:36. > :38:40.worth the money at two levels, for all the reasons David said in terms
:38:40. > :38:43.of repositioning Belfast and this region in the world's eye and
:38:43. > :38:48.that's very, very important. It's also, frankly, worth it just
:38:48. > :38:52.because it lifted the mood in the city. I know a lot of people down
:38:52. > :38:56.at the Snow Patrol gig, 15,000 there, waking up on Monday morning
:38:56. > :39:00.with no job to go to, it's not a great life for them at the moment
:39:00. > :39:03.but it's bet they are week because of the memory of having had that.
:39:04. > :39:07.If we can follow through, and I do want to pay tribute to the tourist
:39:07. > :39:11.board and to the work in this regard, it's been good, if we can
:39:11. > :39:15.follow through and get a lot of sustainable tourism coming in
:39:15. > :39:19.behind the investment that was made around MTV, maybe some of those
:39:19. > :39:23.people will get a job next summer. The tourist board very involved,
:39:23. > :39:27.the council very involved. Have you put a figure on what was spent by
:39:27. > :39:31.Northern Ireland PLC in actually making the event happen? Well, it
:39:31. > :39:36.was, the tourist board and Belfast City Council partnered and put in I
:39:36. > :39:39.think over �1 million into making it all happen, but the estimates
:39:39. > :39:42.are that �10million will have come into the city and indeed the region
:39:42. > :39:47.because there are a lot of the stars and executives were staying
:39:47. > :39:52.outside of Belfast, just over that period of the weekend. I think the
:39:52. > :39:54.legacy of the MTV ap Awards is more important for Belfast and and
:39:55. > :39:57.Northern Ireland and we are dealing with the view that some people
:39:57. > :40:00.across the world have of Belfast and Northern Ireland. We are
:40:00. > :40:04.dealing with safety and security issues. Isn't it marvellous there
:40:04. > :40:08.were only seven arrests in the city of Belfast over the weekend, and
:40:08. > :40:12.that's what you normally have probably over a weekend in Belfast
:40:12. > :40:15.and there were over 20,000 people in the city and I was very proud of
:40:15. > :40:18.Belfast. I was proud of Northern Ireland, the way in which we were
:40:18. > :40:23.able to project ourselves across the world and I think the benefits
:40:23. > :40:25.of it will really - some of them will be intangible but they'll
:40:25. > :40:29.encourage people to come to Northern Ireland and to Belfast and
:40:29. > :40:32.it's a really great start to 2012, which is our year of opportunity,
:40:32. > :40:37.our year of tourism, our year of getting people to come into
:40:37. > :40:41.Northern Ireland. Raymond? I agree, I think it was worth the money. I
:40:41. > :40:45.think even the way it was presented even by the local media and you are
:40:46. > :40:49.to be congratulated, the commentary and running, because sometimes you
:40:49. > :40:52.can look at this from a distan and think it's a music awards, what's
:40:52. > :40:56.all the fuss? But it was interesting part of the commentary,
:40:56. > :40:59.people from other cities, Dublin, Madrid, who had hosted the
:40:59. > :41:03.festivals, were part of the local commentary and they said the long
:41:03. > :41:09.lasting effect effect it had, not just the �10million that was in
:41:09. > :41:14.Belfast, but the longer selling of a city to a worldwide audience. In
:41:14. > :41:18.2013 Derry is going to be the City of Culture f I thought today the
:41:18. > :41:24.tourist board or anybody else could spend �1 million and get out over
:41:24. > :41:29.the course of a year what Belfast got over... It would cost more than
:41:29. > :41:33.a million! When you spend a million what you can achieve, so we will
:41:33. > :41:36.eventually will have to spend more. We need more infrastructure,
:41:36. > :41:41.Belfast has the infrastructure. But I am trying to say is sometimes �1
:41:41. > :41:44.million is a lot of money in austere circumstances but if it has
:41:44. > :41:47.a lasting impact and creates more jobs you have to see it as wise
:41:47. > :41:57.spending. The numbers stack up as far as you are concerned?
:41:57. > :42:03.
:42:03. > :42:10.A lot of people realise there is a lot more to it if they're going to
:42:10. > :42:16.do it to our standards. In terms of the spend, I cannot remember that
:42:16. > :42:20.the figure, but I think for every �1 we give them, they can generate
:42:21. > :42:30.�4 for the local economy, so I will support anything that generates
:42:31. > :42:31.
:42:31. > :42:36.wealth. On the softer side, rather than hard economic factors, is
:42:36. > :42:42.there a civilisation that has not prospered without a strong
:42:42. > :42:47.foundation in their acts, creativity, writing? Are you would
:42:47. > :42:55.hate to think that we would forget the importance of that even in the
:42:55. > :43:01.austere times. What are your thoughts? It is all very positive.
:43:01. > :43:09.We feel positive about the weekend. I hope that we do reap the benefits
:43:09. > :43:13.and it is not just short lived. I hope it is about more than that and
:43:13. > :43:20.we do get jobs from it and we have more people coming to Belfast.
:43:20. > :43:25.Thank you. Gentleman with classes. Belfast City Council and the
:43:25. > :43:29.Tourist Board have to be commended, however although it is great to
:43:29. > :43:34.spend that money to recruit more money, why not get our politicians
:43:34. > :43:39.who promise that they would speak to the banks to get them at to lend
:43:39. > :43:46.appropriately, to recreate the construction industry in this
:43:46. > :43:49.country? It is appropriate to say this. We want to crawl the tourism
:43:49. > :43:56.industry so that it can provide jobs for people here in Northern
:43:56. > :44:06.Ireland. It is the 4th fastest growing industry across the UK.
:44:06. > :44:06.
:44:06. > :44:09.There are great opportunities in and around tourism. Tourism is a
:44:09. > :44:16.bright light shining in Northern Ireland and we should be very proud
:44:16. > :44:21.of it. Wild horses would not have tried me into Belfast to listen to
:44:21. > :44:25.any of that music, but I share all the views that have been expressed
:44:25. > :44:34.about how well Northern Ireland that. I would like to congratulate
:44:34. > :44:44.everybody who was involved. Not for you, but well done! Thank you. Next
:44:44. > :44:45.
:44:45. > :44:55.question. Is it right that every year we use the symbol of the poppy
:44:55. > :44:58.
:44:58. > :45:03.as a political football? Raymond McCartney let me go to you first.
:45:03. > :45:11.There have been issues relating to English football teams over the
:45:12. > :45:15.weekend regarding this. What do you think of the question? I'd do not
:45:15. > :45:24.think a poppy should be used as a political symbol. People have a
:45:24. > :45:34.right to wear a poppy. I have no problem as an Irish republican with
:45:34. > :45:34.
:45:34. > :45:41.people doing that. Some people opt out of wearing a poppy and that is
:45:41. > :45:46.not a political statement. But you would like it not to become a
:45:46. > :45:56.perennial political issue? Absolutely. People have the right
:45:56. > :45:57.
:45:57. > :46:03.to wear a poppy and honour their dead in the right they see fit.
:46:03. > :46:07.Those that way it should not see it as a political statement. Enure he
:46:07. > :46:12.thinks the poppy is a political statement has a problem. Anyone who
:46:12. > :46:16.thinks that not wearing a poppy is a political statement also has a
:46:16. > :46:23.problem. We need to respect the right of people to choose to
:46:23. > :46:27.identify themselves or not with the act of remembrance. I appalled that.
:46:27. > :46:32.What has gone on with it the English soccer team, I am finding
:46:32. > :46:37.very difficult to computer. Just for the benefit of those who may
:46:37. > :46:42.not know, the English team wanted to wear the poppy with their
:46:42. > :46:45.friendly match against Spain, but FIFA said that religious and
:46:45. > :46:55.commercial and political emblems cannot be worn in international
:46:55. > :46:55.
:46:55. > :46:59.matches. There are many states that have different emblems. Would you
:46:59. > :47:05.have supported the right of the England player to wear it?
:47:05. > :47:12.course. If every player wanted to wear it. I would rather not have it
:47:12. > :47:17.on my shirt. But we need to get really serious about dealing with
:47:17. > :47:26.the past. That is a bigger debate. That is what we need to focus our
:47:26. > :47:30.attention on. David? One of the biggest issues in the south over
:47:31. > :47:35.the last 20 years has been the gradual recognition of the tens of
:47:35. > :47:38.thousands of soldiers from southern Ireland who fought in World War One
:47:39. > :47:48.and Two were airbrushed bit of history because it was expedient to
:47:49. > :47:50.
:47:50. > :47:55.do so. The history I learned that in secondary school was that the
:47:55. > :48:02.First World War was broadly fought by English people. Then people
:48:02. > :48:08.would talk about relatives that had also fought in that war. In the
:48:08. > :48:12.last 20 years there has been an important reassessment. But the
:48:12. > :48:17.problem is that the winner write history. If there were no right
:48:17. > :48:21.history then the history is jaundiced. If the history is
:48:21. > :48:27.jaundiced then nobody knows what the truth is. Over the last 10
:48:27. > :48:32.years their recognition of the Irish battalions, far more
:48:32. > :48:37.southerners died in World War One than northerners, these are facts,
:48:37. > :48:45.and it is only now that we are beginning to appreciate that.
:48:45. > :48:51.Nobody mentions it. I wear a poppy. I am proud to wear a poppy to say
:48:51. > :48:58.thank you. It is a small gesture. I do notice people who do not wear
:48:58. > :49:02.poppies at this time of year. I wonder why. Particularly as we're
:49:02. > :49:09.coming to a new realisation. When I see what has happened over the last
:49:09. > :49:16.few years, the president of Ireland and the Queen met recently. That
:49:16. > :49:20.was a spirit of generosity. You might not buy into it but that is a
:49:20. > :49:24.spirit of generosity. Is that not what the people of Northern Ireland
:49:24. > :49:32.lead at the moment to get us through these hard times? A spirit
:49:32. > :49:38.of generosity. This is the 24th anniversary of the Enniskillen
:49:38. > :49:45.bombing. It is a painful time. I want to recognise that tonight. It
:49:45. > :49:49.is important that I do that. I welcome the comet that have been
:49:49. > :49:53.made tonight. The poppy is not a political or religious symbol. I
:49:53. > :50:03.may that because I want to remember. Others do not. That is entirely up
:50:03. > :50:07.to them. I have to say that remembering the soldiers currently
:50:07. > :50:15.in Afghanistan and being in solidarity with them. There is a
:50:15. > :50:19.new spirit of leadership that was given by her Majesty the Queen when
:50:19. > :50:23.they looked at remembrance. The passage of time has allowed in the
:50:23. > :50:30.Republic of Ireland the recognition of the Irish who fought in World
:50:30. > :50:35.War One. Maybe it will take us some time to deal with those issues. A
:50:35. > :50:38.lot of those issues are still very raw. If you look at Enniskillen and
:50:38. > :50:42.the fact that their inquiry team is working with those people at the
:50:42. > :50:47.moment and there are still issues being addressed, that shows that
:50:47. > :50:54.there are sensitive issues. People in Enniskillen will wear the poppy
:50:54. > :50:59.with pride. I will be via on Friday and on Sunday to remember not just
:50:59. > :51:04.the world wars but also what happened in Enniskillen. And now
:51:04. > :51:09.look a comment from a questionnaire. There were people of all colours
:51:09. > :51:14.and creeds who fought and continued to fight in the armed forces for
:51:14. > :51:23.freedom and democracy and it is a shame that anybody would abuse or
:51:23. > :51:28.sully the memory of these people. The lady behind you.
:51:28. > :51:32.politicians need to take a reality pill. The poppy has been used as a
:51:32. > :51:36.political symbol. It has been used as a political symbol for many
:51:36. > :51:40.years. For a Sinn Fein person to say that he now has no problems
:51:40. > :51:45.with that is to deny the truth and not to look at what has happened in
:51:45. > :51:51.the past. The only have to look at the society we live in. It is now
:51:51. > :51:56.actually more divided than it has ever been with people being in
:51:56. > :52:01.their sectarian areas. There is a lot of evidence about that. What is
:52:01. > :52:05.needed is not to be nice to one another but to actually deal with
:52:05. > :52:09.their shoes. Yes, we are acknowledging that national sport
:52:09. > :52:14.in World War One, but we are a long way from dealing with that issue
:52:14. > :52:21.and many others. It is unfair of the politicians to sit here and say
:52:21. > :52:27.there is no politics in the poppy. But do we not stack with respect? I
:52:27. > :52:31.personally do not we're a poppy because nobody in my family was on
:52:31. > :52:36.the Western Front. They were all in the abbey at that time. That is my
:52:36. > :52:40.family history. But I know that we have to start getting some respect
:52:40. > :52:45.into the debate. Whether the poppy has been used in the past, and
:52:45. > :52:49.there are many symbols, we are island of symbolism, we need to
:52:49. > :52:55.allow them now to be worn by people who genuinely want to wear them
:52:55. > :53:01.with respect in that way. The big challenge we are now facing up to
:53:01. > :53:05.is the challenge of dealing with our past. You're new leader
:53:05. > :53:08.yesterday said he would not wear a poppy because he said that the
:53:08. > :53:15.British Legion has introduced a sense of appeals and to the poppy.
:53:15. > :53:20.What does that mean? I was not aware that that is what my new
:53:20. > :53:25.leader said. I think you should very carefully check what he said.
:53:25. > :53:29.That is not a fair quote. What chances as is the fact that we do
:53:29. > :53:34.not face up to the need to deal with the past. That is what we need
:53:34. > :53:41.to put their energy into. As you say, there is a bigger debate for
:53:41. > :53:51.another night. I believe that one there. Thank you very much. Next
:53:51. > :53:53.
:53:53. > :53:58.question please. Do you believe that Jesus would be at the same
:53:58. > :54:08.poll's protest and what would he do? Very quick answers please. This
:54:08. > :54:08.
:54:08. > :54:14.is to do with their Occupy my bed at St Paul's and elsewhere. I would
:54:14. > :54:19.not presume to guess what Jesus would do. But he would not be happy
:54:19. > :54:22.with the state of the world, including the state of the Assembly
:54:22. > :54:30.in Northern Ireland where people are paying -- people are being paid
:54:30. > :54:35.a lot of money for not doing very much. It is difficult to second-
:54:35. > :54:40.guess Jesus. I suspect he would be there articulating his views.
:54:40. > :54:47.he be disappointed that it does become a political hot potato for
:54:47. > :54:57.the management of the cathedral? am not going to second-guess that.
:54:57. > :55:01.The question is genuine. I think he would be via raising their issues.
:55:01. > :55:05.As the only applicant on the panel I have been watching very carefully
:55:05. > :55:11.what the Archbishop of Canterbury has been saying. It is not a simple
:55:11. > :55:15.issue of just siding with one or the other. Jesus gave a parable of
:55:15. > :55:23.the two talents. He told people to invest the two talents and to make
:55:23. > :55:30.more out of it. I do find it bizarre that people are now taking
:55:30. > :55:33.up positions out Saeed St Anne's Cathedral. The reason they're
:55:33. > :55:37.outside St Paul's Cathedral is because of its proximity to the
:55:37. > :55:40.City of London. But I can understand people being outside St
:55:40. > :55:47.Anne's Cathedral. It is perhaps just in solidarity with the
:55:47. > :55:50.protesters. Some people come woman heaving and leave their pens there.
:55:50. > :55:59.I do not understand that either. There are a lot of issues
:55:59. > :56:04.surrounding this. I am saying it is much more complex than people would
:56:04. > :56:09.have you believe. It is a difficult issue for the Church. When they got
:56:09. > :56:13.involved at issues such as this in the 1980s they found themselves
:56:13. > :56:17.coming down very firmly on one side of an argument and got into a whole
:56:17. > :56:20.political debate. There is a much wider debate that he's to be had
:56:20. > :56:27.about the role of wealth creation. We all want to see more wealth
:56:27. > :56:37.creation and the UK, but also in relation to ethics and morals.
:56:37. > :56:41.
:56:41. > :56:45.think he would be there. Protesting? Protesting. APPLAUSE
:56:45. > :56:51.And his antecedents would also be there.
:56:51. > :56:59.You say that as a former banker. a former investment banker.
:56:59. > :57:03.have seen the light? I have seen the light! There is an enormous
:57:03. > :57:13.issue of morality at play. You have a country like the UK where the
:57:13. > :57:15.
:57:15. > :57:19.latest figures show that chief executives are paid multiples of
:57:19. > :57:24.the little Gary's salaries. That is not the way that proper economics
:57:24. > :57:30.works. Proper economics is about giving everybody a chance. Final
:57:30. > :57:35.thoughts. The Christianity that I believe in is one that is based on
:57:35. > :57:40.social justice and solidarity. If those protests are up anything,
:57:40. > :57:45.they should be about social justice and solidarity. Whether it is just
:57:45. > :57:52.one person standing up for what is right against a corrupt system,
:57:52. > :57:56.that is the sort of thing Jesus would have wanted. Interesting to
:57:56. > :58:02.hear your thoughts on that. Final thought from the questioner.
:58:02. > :58:07.believe he would be there. I think he would be teaching the protesters
:58:07. > :58:14.to pray for the Government to help the government changed and bring
:58:14. > :58:20.prosperity across the land like teaching people to help build an
:58:20. > :58:25.economic society again. Thank you. Fine to everyone. That is what we