:00:50. > :00:54.Remembrance Day is a significant date in the Orange Order Callander
:00:54. > :00:59.and its members of paying tribute to those who died in war and
:00:59. > :01:06.conflict. We are here Mac today to remember
:01:06. > :01:11.the fallen and pay tribute to those who paid the ultimate truck - Max
:01:11. > :01:15.sacrifice, Protestants, a Roman Catholics and those of any faith.
:01:15. > :01:20.But the Orange Order pozmack historic views on Catholicism
:01:20. > :01:25.continued debate. According to the brawls of the Orange Order, the
:01:25. > :01:33.Orangemen must oppose the fatal - marked the doctrines of the romance
:01:33. > :01:36.that -- the Roman Catholic Church. But when Monica became one of the
:01:36. > :01:43.fallen, murdered by Republican dissidents, whose death caused
:01:43. > :01:49.widespread revulsion and United the community. The G A A, of which he
:01:49. > :01:55.was a member, and the police took turns carrying his coffin. The
:01:55. > :02:00.funeral was attended by the First and Deputy First Ministers. Also
:02:00. > :02:04.them acquire the Ulster Unionist leader Tom Eliot and his senior
:02:04. > :02:09.call-up - my colleague Danny Kennedy. As Orangemen, they might
:02:09. > :02:14.have been expected to stay away from a Catholic service but perhaps
:02:14. > :02:22.as a sign of how modern Ireland has changed would put their desire to
:02:22. > :02:30.one of Monica first. - Mark Blake puts their desire to on a Roman
:02:30. > :02:40.curve. I do not think it is a sin to go to the funeral off somebody
:02:40. > :02:45.who served in my constituency. Mac in Fermanagh, Tom Elliott
:02:45. > :02:55.pozmack home county, clerical access book Women To was symbolic
:02:55. > :02:58.
:02:58. > :03:06.of a new generation, looking to the future. He was a young man who held
:03:06. > :03:12.on to his culture but could see the way Northern Ireland was heading
:03:12. > :03:18.and he joins the PSNI and he was fingered for that. Despite the
:03:18. > :03:27.shared grief of the funeral, which employs some Orangemen condemned
:03:27. > :03:30.men Mac for attending the mass. The criticism was followed by official
:03:30. > :03:38.complaints which meant they faced being thrown out of the Orange
:03:38. > :03:48.Order. But tonight we can reveal that Sandy Row was not be on the
:03:48. > :03:59.
:03:59. > :04:04.lodge to complain. Almost a dozen letters of concern were received.
:04:04. > :04:14.We pray for the PSNI and all putting their lives at risk from
:04:14. > :04:28.
:04:28. > :04:38.IMAX security. The Orange Order expressed its sympathy to the
:04:38. > :04:55.
:04:55. > :05:02.family mac family. I repeat that According to its role, and orange
:05:02. > :05:10.man cannot participate in an act of Roman worship. The reason for this
:05:10. > :05:15.is a view the mass as blasphemous. In a recent article in the border
:05:15. > :05:22.macro's newspaper, its grand chaplain called the mass a mockery
:05:22. > :05:28.of common sense. And now we come to the lovely part of the Eucharist
:05:28. > :05:38.were we offer our gift to God. They've become the body and blood
:05:38. > :05:42.
:05:42. > :05:48.When the priest says the way for will become the actual flesh of
:05:48. > :05:52.Christ, in that sense we do not believe as Protestants that that
:05:52. > :05:58.happens in the service. I have no problem with the Orange Order
:05:58. > :06:06.holding whatever beliefs they want to hold but applied to have a
:06:06. > :06:13.problem with them at judging the central act of worship in my face.
:06:13. > :06:19.And using awful words like blasphemous. It absolutely makes me
:06:19. > :06:24.totally dead and sad inside, because I do not think that is
:06:24. > :06:28.respectful, I do not think it is of this era. But not all Orangemen
:06:28. > :06:32.take the view that they cannot attend the mass. Some believe that
:06:33. > :06:42.as long as you do not participate there is no harm in being present
:06:42. > :06:52.to pay respect. This is Tyrone MLA Ross Hussey, who also went to the
:06:52. > :06:53.
:06:53. > :06:57.murdered men' funeral mass. -- man's. I went to pay respects to
:06:57. > :07:01.the mat -- the family of a murdered police officer and I think anybody
:07:01. > :07:07.in the same circumstances would see no logical reason why I should not
:07:07. > :07:12.have done. I was proud to be there as a former police officer. We have
:07:12. > :07:17.learnt that Ross Hussey is not alone in his views. Lord Trimble
:07:17. > :07:25.was once the hero of Orangemen after he helped negotiate our way
:07:25. > :07:29.down their Garvaghy Road in 1995. - - a way. But when he was Ulster
:07:29. > :07:38.Unionist leader he also faced the threat of being expelled from the
:07:38. > :07:42.order when he went to two masses for the victims of the Omagh bomb.
:07:42. > :07:49.It was absolutely clear once that terrible event had happened that I
:07:49. > :07:53.should go. There are circumstances when it is one's duty as a gritters
:07:54. > :07:59.-- Christian and even as a politician to go to services in
:07:59. > :08:02.other churches. No complaint was made against Ross Hussey and he
:08:02. > :08:09.believes Sandy Row Orangemen should examine their own actions and not
:08:09. > :08:14.those of his party colleagues. should look to their own conscience
:08:14. > :08:24.and their own Christian values. This was a man who died serving his
:08:24. > :08:24.
:08:24. > :08:30.country. I can't see the logic of the complaint. Of course, for those
:08:30. > :08:38.who do not share the Order's views of the Mass, this may seem very
:08:38. > :08:42.strange. But to Orangemen it is vitally important. Here is the
:08:42. > :08:49.crucial point. Stars attending a mass mean you are participating in
:08:49. > :08:54.it? -- dos attending. The official line is clear, once you cross the
:08:54. > :09:01.threshold of a church you are taking part in it blasphemous act.
:09:01. > :09:07.A Roman Catholic funeral Mass or a Roman Catholic wedding mass is in
:09:07. > :09:11.the first instance an act of worship. That is what it is.
:09:11. > :09:18.Therefore, unless you're going to worship you have to ask yourself
:09:18. > :09:22.why am I there? But David Trimble and Ross Hussey say they were in
:09:22. > :09:27.the Catholic Church as a mark of respect, not to participate in the
:09:27. > :09:34.mass. I attended an act of Christian worship, I did not
:09:34. > :09:39.participate in the Roman Catholic communion. The Lord's Prayer is
:09:39. > :09:47.said in a Roman Catholic Church and in the Church I went to add my
:09:47. > :09:57.mother's knee. Did you feel that going to the mass had any
:09:57. > :10:07.implications be a Protestant faith? No. Why? It doesn't. I was there to
:10:07. > :10:07.
:10:07. > :10:14.show respect to the deceased. It was an entirely appropriate context.
:10:14. > :10:19.Last month, Tom Elliott's Lodge of Fermanagh and dank -- Danny
:10:19. > :10:24.Kennedy's Lodge held a hearing into the complaint. At the secret
:10:24. > :10:29.meeting in Portadown, both politicians and members of Sandy
:10:29. > :10:33.Row were present to put their case. Tom Elliott and Danny Kennedy had
:10:33. > :10:42.hoped this would clarify that the rule on participation does not bar
:10:42. > :10:47.and orange man from attending a mass. -- and Orangeman. Do you
:10:47. > :10:52.think the role will change in some way? I think it will be clarified
:10:52. > :10:56.and it will be a landmark judgment. But the counties decided the case
:10:56. > :11:06.was not proven, giving no clarification on the role of
:11:06. > :11:07.
:11:07. > :11:14.attending Mass. -- that rule. Over 40 years the -- 40 years ago the
:11:14. > :11:22.Orange Order was told that members could attend after Phelim O'Neill
:11:22. > :11:27.and RJH Cramsie attended a mass. This is a legal opinion that the
:11:27. > :11:34.Orange Order sort back again. It reveals that as senior barrister
:11:34. > :11:41.took the view that the wording about participating in a mass did
:11:41. > :11:49.not ban an Orangeman from going into the mass, it only was a ban on
:11:49. > :11:54.participating. But when we asked the deputy grandmaster about this
:11:54. > :12:00.legal opinion he still insisted that Orangemen are not allowed to
:12:00. > :12:06.attend Mass. Are you aware of the legal opinion
:12:06. > :12:12.from 1967? It says that the rules do not say that you cannot attend.
:12:12. > :12:19.An Orangeman should not countenance by his presence or otherwise any
:12:19. > :12:24.act or sermon of Roman Catholic worship. I think in plain man's
:12:24. > :12:29.English that is clear enough. has been the perception but
:12:29. > :12:36.according to this legal opinion it is the wrong perception. I do not
:12:36. > :12:43.agree with it. As a former lawyer, David Trimble says this rule on pot
:12:43. > :12:47.is a patient is a bad role in more ways than one. I think it is
:12:47. > :12:50.deliberately ambiguous because the Orange Order at might get
:12:50. > :13:00.difficulty getting agreement on a clear of rule, but they should have
:13:00. > :13:03.
:13:03. > :13:08.a rule that makes it clear. tonight spotlight can also revealed
:13:08. > :13:18.that the threat to expel Danny Kennedy and Tom Elliott has not
:13:18. > :13:21.
:13:21. > :13:28.gone away. There is a pit -- an appeal against the "not proven"
:13:29. > :13:38.decision. This is Sandy Row Lodge parading in Belfast two weeks ago
:13:39. > :13:40.
:13:40. > :13:44.on Reformation Day, a celebration Some observers believe the
:13:44. > :13:48.complaint exposes another divide between what is in some cases a
:13:48. > :13:53.hardline wing of the Order in the towns and cities and a more
:13:53. > :13:57.moderate outlook in Green Cross Code Man areas. Jon Tongue, the
:13:57. > :14:07.author of a recent book on the Orange Order, believes the division
:14:07. > :14:09.
:14:09. > :14:14.is mocked. The Orange Order is divided. In rural areas they are
:14:14. > :14:24.benign and charitable. In urban areas, there is a harder line. They
:14:24. > :14:27.
:14:27. > :14:34.have lost a lot of members, so they are more hardline.
:14:34. > :14:38.But a lot of what goes on in the halls is so sure. At this event in
:14:38. > :14:43.the countryside outside Lisburn, old-time dancing classes take place
:14:43. > :14:51.to a well executed beat and it is a scene repeated up and down the
:14:51. > :14:55.country. Brian Kennaway is a former convenor of the Grand Lodge of
:14:55. > :15:01.Ireland and has also written about the Orange Order. He says many
:15:01. > :15:06.people in the countryside have adopted a different attitude to
:15:06. > :15:14.their hard line counterpart in the towns and cities. People in rural
:15:14. > :15:23.Ulster, like Tom Eliot, they take an ambivalent attitude and feel
:15:23. > :15:30.that, well, it is a mark of respect and I should go to the funeral or
:15:30. > :15:34.mass for my friend. That would present no real difficulties.
:15:34. > :15:39.former republican prisoner, Sean Murray now works to result parading
:15:39. > :15:43.issues. He says his view of the Orange Order, collared by
:15:43. > :15:50.experiences of contentious marches in Belfast, changed when he
:15:50. > :15:55.accepted invitations to parade in the countryside. I found it a very
:15:55. > :16:01.rewarding experience because it gave me another insight, another
:16:01. > :16:09.image of what Orange Order's represent. It did not present any
:16:09. > :16:15.threat to me. But the key division in the Order is not between town
:16:15. > :16:18.and country. It between modernisers who wish to add that the
:16:18. > :16:26.organisation to the 21st century and Conservatives, who believe
:16:26. > :16:31.change is a threat to their core religious beliefs. And tonight we
:16:31. > :16:34.can rebuild this division goes to the heart of the Order. Even
:16:34. > :16:44.splitting its seven senior chaplains. We know that four of
:16:44. > :16:45.
:16:45. > :16:51.them, including Alastair Smith, do not believe that Orangemen should
:16:51. > :16:55.go to Catholic Mass. The roles were revised in 2008. There was no
:16:55. > :17:00.attempt whatsoever to change the rules, their top that suggests to
:17:00. > :17:08.me that in fact this is a fallacy. This is something that has been
:17:08. > :17:18.blown out of all proportion by a few. However, Spotlight has learned
:17:18. > :17:21.
:17:21. > :17:29.that a letter demanding a review of the Rolls has been drafted. --
:17:29. > :17:34.roles. It is being voted on tonight in Tom Kennedy's area. That is one
:17:34. > :17:41.of the problems of the Orange Order. It is split between modernisation
:17:41. > :17:50.and the traditionalists. There are debates whether they should be the
:17:50. > :17:55.branded, whether they should liberalise. The Orange Order is not
:17:55. > :17:59.split asunder, but there are serious divisions. It will not
:17:59. > :18:05.cause a split. This perhaps is part of the fear, that if they deal with
:18:05. > :18:09.that issue, it will cause a split. But by not dealing with it, they
:18:09. > :18:12.are haemorrhaging. Whether the issue will cause a split is not
:18:12. > :18:18.certain. What is clear that two high-profile figures in a political
:18:18. > :18:26.party feel unable to speak out. We asked Tom Eliot and Danny Kennedy
:18:26. > :18:32.several times to speak about their feelings on the mass brawls. But we
:18:32. > :18:37.-- mass brawls. We know they want to see it change.
:18:37. > :18:42.Why is it that you are effectively gagging Tom Eliot and Danny Kennedy
:18:42. > :18:48.and will not let them talk to us? Every organisation, when there are
:18:48. > :18:54.issues to be discussed, appoint a spokesman to discuss the matter and
:18:54. > :19:04.I am the guy in the hot seat today. I have been asked by the Crown
:19:04. > :19:08.officers of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland to be the on this
:19:08. > :19:18.particular issue. But you are stifling other Orangemen. It is not
:19:18. > :19:20.
:19:20. > :19:30.for the World at large. It has to be dealt with internally, within
:19:30. > :19:34.
:19:34. > :19:40.the family. So what happens now? Brian Kennaway says it's a question
:19:40. > :19:47.of whether the modernisers are prepared to force it through the
:19:47. > :19:53.roles on attending Mass. There is this opposition to change.
:19:53. > :19:57.One of the proverbs that are quoted his medal not with men that are
:19:58. > :20:02.given to change. Any threat of change is seen as a compromise and
:20:02. > :20:06.so it is difficult to pursue change at that level in the Grand Order.
:20:06. > :20:10.The majority would have been sympathetic to change, but it is
:20:10. > :20:17.just getting the courage to stand up and say that and produce the
:20:17. > :20:21.change. But there are those who feel the debate should be less
:20:21. > :20:25.about modernisers and traditionalists and more a matter
:20:25. > :20:30.of common sense. Do you think there will be a difficulty because you
:20:30. > :20:36.had a broad church wing and an evangelical wing? A I would not
:20:36. > :20:44.lose those terms. I do not think that is the right-eyed dichotomy.
:20:44. > :20:48.The few a person of principle, then you add here to your principles.
:20:48. > :20:55.if you are a person of principle then you will stick to your
:20:55. > :21:00.principles. Anyone can express a private opinion. If they want to
:21:00. > :21:09.test the water, test the water. We are a democratic organisation and
:21:09. > :21:12.we are willing to discuss things. We have nothing to hide. It is here
:21:12. > :21:16.and take Grand Lodge officers meeting that Orange Order at
:21:16. > :21:21.Business is discussed. They like to do things in private, but for the
:21:21. > :21:28.first time, they have allowed a camera into one of their meetings.
:21:28. > :21:32.I need to check if I have some devotional responsibilities. Some
:21:32. > :21:38.commentators suggest that behind closed doors, or Grand lodges are
:21:38. > :21:43.walking a tightrope between the modern and conservative wings. --
:21:43. > :21:48.the Grand Lodge. They claim that whilst it is preoccupy papering
:21:48. > :21:53.over the cracks, it is failing to adapt to changing times.
:21:53. > :22:00.biggest threat to the Orange Order does not come from expansive Roman
:22:00. > :22:05.Catholicism, it is from secularism. People are moving away from
:22:05. > :22:10.religion. The Orange Order and need to stay relevant in a society where
:22:10. > :22:15.we are less God-fearing than in the past. It is one of the problems of
:22:15. > :22:20.the Orange Order in the 21st century. They have identified their
:22:20. > :22:26.own enemy and they are fighting their own battle. They still see
:22:27. > :22:33.the enemy as Catholicism, nationalism, republicanism. The
:22:33. > :22:40.real threat is secularism and the modern society. For those hoping to
:22:40. > :22:50.see a modernised Orange Order, the fundamental problem remains. A
:22:50. > :22:57.
:22:57. > :23:02.recent survey of Orange men show differing of public people.
:23:02. > :23:07.majority of Orange Order members believe that it is anti- Roman
:23:07. > :23:11.Catholic Church. It is difficult to escape that charge. The Orange
:23:11. > :23:16.Order was set up partly to oppose the false doctrines of the Church
:23:16. > :23:21.of Rome. It says it is the responsibility of Orange Order
:23:22. > :23:27.members to treat Catholics with respect. Ultimately, we do not like
:23:27. > :23:31.your church, but we treat our Catholic neighbours courteously.
:23:31. > :23:36.The challenges which modern life posed to the Order were underlined
:23:36. > :23:40.last month by the announcement that the better that rain will now be
:23:40. > :23:45.allowed to marry a Catholic. It was probably no surprise that the
:23:45. > :23:49.institution last weekend protested against this decision. The problem
:23:49. > :23:53.for the audit is that whilst in his life to the Crown, it does not
:23:53. > :24:00.allow its own members to marry Catholics. But again, the Orange
:24:00. > :24:04.Order plays down the development. do not think that does present a
:24:04. > :24:09.challenge to the Orange Order because, of course, the monarch
:24:09. > :24:14.will still be a member, be required to be a member of the Church of
:24:15. > :24:20.England. That is not going to change. There is a problem though.
:24:20. > :24:24.You can have a monarch married to a Catholic... A I am saying from a
:24:24. > :24:30.political point of view, that scenario you are describing is very
:24:30. > :24:36.far from ideal. -- IM. So you still give your loyalty to the monarchy
:24:36. > :24:46.is married to a Catholic? position within the Orange Order is
:24:46. > :24:52.
:24:52. > :24:56.we support the monarch being a So what does the future hold for
:24:56. > :25:02.the Orange Order? There are fewer young people joining the Order.
:25:02. > :25:09.Overall, numbers are down from 100,000 in the 1960s to around
:25:09. > :25:17.35,000 today. Whilst they are seen to be many who look to the order
:25:17. > :25:20.for their social life, the rules on Catholicism, the negative images of
:25:20. > :25:28.the Order and the advance of secular life have all been blamed
:25:28. > :25:33.for the fall in membership. Grand Lodge has tried to address this by
:25:33. > :25:42.turning the 12th into a friendlier tourist attraction and the Order
:25:42. > :25:46.has a Skene reaching out to Catholic schools. -- a scheme.
:25:46. > :25:50.But it is clear that at the top, attitudes to the mass remain
:25:50. > :25:57.unchanged. At fact that was made clear when the Grand Master spoke
:25:57. > :26:01.to us on Remembrance Day. Grand Master, a word. And for that first
:26:01. > :26:11.time, he publicly revealed his stance on attending Mass. Have you
:26:11. > :26:11.
:26:11. > :26:17.been into a mass yourself? I have not. Could you explain why it not?
:26:17. > :26:27.Well, the reason I do not vote and mass is because of the theological
:26:27. > :26:30.
:26:30. > :26:35.differences between the Roman Catholic faith and a were faith. --
:26:35. > :26:39.and our faith. Does that caused problems for you, in terms of your
:26:39. > :26:44.friendships with a Catholic? Not a tour. We have a healthy respect for
:26:44. > :26:50.each other. And you do not feel it is disrespectful not to go to the
:26:50. > :26:54.mass? I do not. What about other Orangemen who go it into mass?
:26:54. > :27:03.there is up to them. I am not prepared to answer for them. They
:27:03. > :27:08.have to answer for themselves. Would you like to see things
:27:09. > :27:13.changed to reflect that? It is an internal matter and I am not
:27:13. > :27:23.prepared to discuss it. But don't you pick it is an idea to change
:27:23. > :27:26.
:27:26. > :27:33.the rules. It is up to our membership. But Father D'Arcy it
:27:33. > :27:37.says -- says removing a ban on Orangemen going into mass would do
:27:37. > :27:42.more for the Order than any PR exercise. I say if you can change
:27:42. > :27:47.it, do so as soon as possible. Shaun Murray says that his view is
:27:47. > :27:54.echoed by Republicans. Changing the mass a role could be the first
:27:54. > :28:00.small step towards dealing with issues such as contentious parades.
:28:00. > :28:08.I think it is incumbent on the Orange Order to make us understand
:28:08. > :28:15.exactly what the Order is and what it represents an what represents in
:28:15. > :28:19.a modern society. But Alastair Smith says it will be an internal
:28:19. > :28:25.matter Orangemen alone. He suggests that things will not change easily.
:28:26. > :28:35.If people want to express concern about the ball, they have an
:28:36. > :28:36.
:28:36. > :28:41.opportunity to do so. -- about the roles. Remember, our qualifications
:28:41. > :28:46.are based on God's Word and God's work does not change. For Ross
:28:46. > :28:51.Hussey and other Orangemen the message is clear. A I say to them,
:28:51. > :28:55.I was right to go. So you would risk expulsion again? If someone is
:28:55. > :29:01.prepared to lay down their life for the people of Northern Ireland, I
:29:01. > :29:08.am prepared to go to the funeral, but I hope I never have to do it a
:29:08. > :29:12.gain. So what of the Orange Order's role on participation in the mass?
:29:12. > :29:16.In the last half a century, 66 Orangemen had been expelled for
:29:16. > :29:24.going into a Catholic Church and over 200 have been forced out for