The Saltire and the Union

Download Subtitles

Transcript

:00:01. > :00:07.June. Also we have the Clipper round-the-world yacht race at the

:00:07. > :00:13.end of June. In the next few months, we have events all the time.

:00:13. > :00:17.Thank you very much. The square is well worth checking out so maybe we

:00:17. > :00:18.will see you here some time. Time now for a look at what the

:00:18. > :00:23.Time now for a look at what the weather has planned for the next

:00:23. > :00:28.few days. Here's Barra Best. Winds are quite high at the moment

:00:28. > :00:33.and they will stay high overnight and into tomorrow. Generally it is

:00:33. > :00:37.a largely dry night, but there will be some damp weather continuing to

:00:37. > :00:43.be blown in from the north. Temperatures will stay at around

:00:43. > :00:47.five or six degrees. No frost to worry about. It will be a cold

:00:47. > :00:52.start tomorrow. But nothing will change. It will stay cloudy and we

:00:52. > :00:57.hold on to the winds. Very little in the way of brighter weather

:00:57. > :01:03.first thing, but maybe the odd glimmer. For the north coast, here,

:01:03. > :01:10.we hold on to some patchy rain. That continues through the day. The

:01:10. > :01:13.picture across Ireland is the sunny spells are at their best in

:01:13. > :01:17.Scotland and central England. May be some brightness through the rest

:01:17. > :01:23.of the coast. Some pictures tomorrow between nine and 10

:01:23. > :01:29.degrees. -- temperatures. For us, our temperatures are between eight

:01:29. > :01:34.and nine degrees. In the south-east we may get the odd 10 degrees. Not

:01:34. > :01:37.too bad. A few degrees above average. Although there will be a

:01:37. > :01:41.lot of cloud, it will be bright at time. We will see some doubt

:01:41. > :01:46.whether from the north coast. On Thursday we introduce another front.

:01:46. > :01:50.It is going to bring some rain. Temperatures will be up to nine or

:01:50. > :01:52.10 degrees. Improving as we did to 10 degrees. Improving as we did to

:01:52. > :01:55.the end of the week but by the weekend the temperatures begin to

:01:55. > :01:58.fall again. That's it for now. You can also

:01:58. > :02:08.keep up to date with the news online and follow this programme on

:02:08. > :02:31.

:02:31. > :02:41.Facebook and Twitter. From BBC Two politicians, one unionist and

:02:41. > :02:41.

:02:41. > :04:08.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 87 seconds

:04:08. > :04:12.one republican Our future, our resources, and our success, should

:04:13. > :04:19.be in our own hands. I passionately believe we are stronger together,

:04:19. > :04:23.rather than breaking apart. Frankly, I'm sad we are even having this

:04:23. > :04:26.debate. Peter Robinson and I have a castle in Belfast. I'm sure we

:04:26. > :04:31.would be prepared to make it available for peace discussions

:04:31. > :04:36.between the British government and Scotland! To many uenss here it's

:04:36. > :04:41.no laughing matter am some fear the fight for Scottish independence

:04:41. > :04:45.will achieve what republican terrorism has not. I see those

:04:45. > :04:51.proposals as a bigger threat to the union of the United Kingdom than

:04:51. > :04:56.the IRA is at present. Scottish nationalists say that is an

:04:56. > :05:04.Australian UN fair analogy. Terrible comment to make. Misjudged.

:05:04. > :05:07.Comparing the SNP a political party, totterries acts of mindless

:05:07. > :05:12.thuggery. The Scottish referendum could herald the biggest shake-up

:05:12. > :05:17.to the United Kingdom in three centuries. The implications for

:05:17. > :05:22.Northern Ireland are potentially huge. Could Scottish independence

:05:22. > :05:25.re-start the conflict in Northern Ireland, as some claim? If the

:05:25. > :05:28.Scottish nationalists were to succeed, it could possibly re-

:05:28. > :05:33.ignite the difficulties that we have just managed to overcome.

:05:33. > :05:38.Tonight, on Spotlight, we are in Scotland. We have brought with us

:05:38. > :05:41.two politicians, one unionist and one republican some unionists fear

:05:41. > :05:45.that Scottish independence could destroy the union. We ask, what it

:05:45. > :05:55.could mean for Northern Ireland and its position within the United

:05:55. > :05:58.

:05:58. > :06:02.Our journey bins at a Burns Night supper in County Londonderry. This

:06:02. > :06:11.celebration in Tobermore Orange Hall, is one of the biggest social

:06:11. > :06:14.events in the local Calder. Since the plantation of the early 1600s,

:06:14. > :06:18.Ulster Scots have had deep religious, social and cultural ties

:06:18. > :06:22.with their fellow Scots, 20 miles across the Irish Sea. For many in

:06:22. > :06:26.the unionist community, those links are as strong today. Here there is

:06:26. > :06:34.great affection for the people of Scotland, who are regarded as

:06:34. > :06:44.kinsfolk. They have come to toast the haggis and to celebrate their

:06:44. > :06:44.

:06:44. > :06:47.Scottish culture through poetry, music and dance. I'll cut you up...

:06:47. > :06:51.Alex Salmond's talk of Scottish independence and the possible

:06:51. > :06:55.break-up of the union draw as raw and deeply emotional response here.

:06:55. > :07:00.I think it's disgraceful because we've come through two world wars

:07:00. > :07:03.and the nation all fought together. You look at how many people have

:07:03. > :07:08.lost their relatives in wars and that, he is going to succeed where

:07:08. > :07:12.the Germans failed by breaking up the union. If cot land do break

:07:12. > :07:17.away from the UK it will let the English and Welsh people see that

:07:17. > :07:21.the people that's with him, the people that want to be there will

:07:21. > :07:26.only strengthen what they have. It would let England see who their

:07:26. > :07:29.friends are and where their loyalties lie. If Scotland was to

:07:29. > :07:33.get their independence, Wales could follow suit.we would have the

:07:33. > :07:40.scenario of a united Ireland, does the North need to be in the United

:07:40. > :07:48.Kingdom? I think it would be drastic for Northern Ireland.

:07:48. > :07:53.People here clearly cherish their relationship with Scotland. One man,

:07:53. > :07:58.who has fought to uphold that relationship around the globe, is

:07:58. > :08:02.Ulster unionist Lord Laird. From Artnagarvan in County Tyrone, he is

:08:02. > :08:07.passionate about everything Scottish. The former Head of the

:08:07. > :08:12.Ulster Scots Agency, he is the most high-profile proponent of Ulster

:08:12. > :08:14.Scots as a language. We decided to take Lord Laird on a trip to find

:08:14. > :08:20.out more about Scottish independence and what the outcome

:08:20. > :08:27.of the referendum could mean for Northern Ireland. Accompanying him,

:08:27. > :08:30.Barry McEldulff person, a republican from Tyrone. The Sinn

:08:30. > :08:38.Fein MLA is passionate about the gaelic tradition and is well-known

:08:38. > :08:42.as a champion of the GAA and the Irish language. John Laird set out

:08:42. > :08:45.on his journey on the very clear views on the way forward for

:08:45. > :08:49.Scotland. I would be opposed to independence. I'm opposed to any

:08:49. > :08:53.form of nationalism. I think nationalism is narrow and small.

:08:53. > :08:59.It's lacks self confidence. Barry McEldulff began the trip with very

:08:59. > :09:02.different, but firmly held opinions on Scottish independence. Well,

:09:02. > :09:05.Sinn Fein genuinely believes in the concept of national self

:09:05. > :09:08.determination for Ireland, principally, and, of course, for

:09:08. > :09:18.Scotland. It would be wrong of us to be prescriptive to the Scottish

:09:18. > :09:34.

:09:34. > :09:37.Scotland is potentially on the cusp of momentous change. There is an

:09:37. > :09:41.enormous sense of expectation here, as people prepare for months of

:09:41. > :09:46.debate and ultimately a decision which could strike at the very

:09:46. > :09:53.heart of the UK's constitution and reverberate across British finance,

:09:53. > :09:59.industry and the military. The Robert the Bruce monument at

:09:59. > :10:03.Bannockburn, which commemorates a great Scottish victory over the

:10:03. > :10:11.English. Today, Scottish nationalists want to hold their

:10:11. > :10:16.referendum in 2014, the 700th anniversary of that battle.

:10:16. > :10:20.Scottish victory here was overwhelming. There was almost

:10:20. > :10:26.annihilation of the English noblt elite. They were actually the main

:10:26. > :10:31.victims of the Scottish pikemen. It took a very large number of years

:10:31. > :10:37.after 1314 for English forces, as it were, to restore their

:10:37. > :10:41.credibility. I don't think that the romantic or historical significance

:10:41. > :10:46.of 1314 will play all that great a part. It will certainly give a kind

:10:46. > :10:50.of lustre. The Scottish people are not daft. They will be looking very

:10:50. > :10:53.carefully indeed at all the arguments. The arguments will be

:10:53. > :10:59.essentially based on politics, aspirational attitudes in Scotland

:10:59. > :11:03.and, above all, of course, the likely future of the economy.

:11:03. > :11:09.Barry McEldulff there are clear parallels with the famous Irish

:11:09. > :11:19.victory over the English in County Tyrone. For me this is like the

:11:19. > :11:22.battle of the Yellowford at Benburb in 1598 when Huw O'Neill vanquished

:11:22. > :11:26.English forces at Yellowford? I like history. I love history and

:11:26. > :11:31.the past, I don't want to live in. It you could pick up stuff out of

:11:31. > :11:36.history and Tuesday for your own use. With respect to Irish

:11:37. > :11:41.Republican and Scottish nationalist you can pick these things. The

:11:41. > :11:49.unionists can pick the same thing and interpret it another way. You

:11:49. > :11:55.pick them when it suits you. Peace. I will be the umpire here. This

:11:55. > :11:58.might surprise your listeners and viewers in Ireland. In the 19th

:11:59. > :12:03.century Bruce and Wallace were regarded by the unionists as heroes.

:12:03. > :12:07.The argument was that both of them in their different wayes had

:12:07. > :12:12.preserved the independence the of Scotland. A very interesting point.

:12:12. > :12:16.Can you see how you interpret history to suit yourselves. You are

:12:16. > :12:20.a walking contradiction yourself. The papers are reporting a surge

:12:20. > :12:30.for support in independence, 20 points up, they say, on previous

:12:30. > :12:31.

:12:31. > :12:35.polls. One small survey. It's headline news. We have two-and-a-

:12:35. > :12:39.half years until the poll. A lot of people will come to common sense,

:12:39. > :12:42.who will pay for all sorts of things. If Scotland gets

:12:42. > :12:47.independence. 51% would not frighten me at all. It's

:12:47. > :12:56.interesting in that we are in the middle of an economic recession.

:12:56. > :13:00.51% are, you know, stating their position for independence. Earlier

:13:00. > :13:04.this month, the Scottish National Party leader said his goal is

:13:04. > :13:10.political independence. The Queen, would remain Head of State. Alex

:13:10. > :13:13.Salmond wants to ask the Scottish people one question. Do you agree

:13:13. > :13:16.that Scotland should be an independent country? Even the

:13:16. > :13:22.wording of the question on the ballot paper has caused a huge row.

:13:22. > :13:26.David Cameron says the SNP is posing a loaded and coercive

:13:26. > :13:30.question. David Cameron is insisting on a "straight-forward

:13:30. > :13:36.yes or no question on independence". If Scottish people do vote for

:13:36. > :13:40.independence, what will the impact be on Northern Ireland? The more I

:13:40. > :13:47.heard of this word "independence" I have a notion in my head that

:13:47. > :13:52.Tyrone could pull it off. Who would be the Head of State. We took our

:13:52. > :13:54.politicians to meet constitutional expert, Christine Bell, originally

:13:54. > :13:57.from Northern Ireland, now based here at Edinburgh University.

:13:57. > :14:00.Christine has reassuring news for John Laird. The Good Friday

:14:00. > :14:03.agreement safeguards Northern Ireland's position within the union,

:14:03. > :14:05.irrespective of the outcome of a Scottish referendum. I think in

:14:05. > :14:10.terms of the immediate constitutional status of Northern

:14:10. > :14:13.Ireland, if we are looking at constitutional... You know, would

:14:13. > :14:17.you Northern Ireland be propelled into a united Ireland. It doesn't

:14:17. > :14:20.affect that at all. The Belfast Agreement anticipated it. Unlike

:14:20. > :14:24.the Scot land Act, the Northern Ireland Act makes provision for a

:14:24. > :14:29.referendum. It's clear that the conditions for a ref aren't there

:14:29. > :14:32.at the minute. Behind the headline figures, recent polls indicate a

:14:32. > :14:36.definite increase in support for independence. That support is still

:14:36. > :14:40.a long way from being a majority. What is more significant is the

:14:40. > :14:47.rise in the number of English people who want a Parliament of

:14:47. > :14:51.their own. Have you learnt anything new? One thing that struck me today.

:14:51. > :14:55.There is a rising sense of Englishness, a sense of England on

:14:55. > :15:01.the part of English people. You know, I wonder, from a union point

:15:01. > :15:05.of view, you know, is that, is that auguring, sort of, a psychological

:15:05. > :15:09.break-up? In that a notion of Britishness is dissipating and

:15:09. > :15:12.Scottishness and Englishness is on the rise? I'm not a player in this

:15:12. > :15:17.referendum. I'm a spectator because I'm going to allow the Scottish

:15:17. > :15:20.people to determine their own affairs. You're a player. You want

:15:20. > :15:30.to get actively involved in this campaign. I think you might learn

:15:30. > :15:36.from spectating this. OK. It could be the Republic of Ireland crease

:15:36. > :15:42.ceasing to be a republic and coming back into the UK. Can we agree to

:15:42. > :15:45.disagree? We can always agree to disagree. Dinner in Edinburgh for

:15:45. > :15:49.our two politicians, some people from Northern Ireland, who now live

:15:49. > :15:55.and work here. We wanted to know what they think about Scottish

:15:55. > :15:58.independence and what it means for Northern Ireland. Lord Laird is

:15:58. > :16:03.immediately challenged on what Scottish independence could mean

:16:03. > :16:09.for the future of Ulster unionism. I'm sick, sore and tired of every

:16:09. > :16:14.morning getting up having to say, how do we defend the union today. I

:16:14. > :16:19.do not wish to be a unionist. I wish to be a politician. But I'm

:16:19. > :16:23.forced to be a unionist because I perceive people working against us.

:16:23. > :16:27.I perceive we have no other way... We don't have an existence, we

:16:27. > :16:31.don't have an existence unless we can keep Northern Ireland as part

:16:31. > :16:36.of the United Kingdom. That is the way we analyse things today.

:16:36. > :16:40.Scotland is outside that. Scotland is outside that, how do you feel?

:16:40. > :16:44.Hold on. My big fear about skos Scottish nationalism and Scottish

:16:44. > :16:49.independence is that it might go down what I regard as Irish

:16:49. > :16:53.Nationalism. The one thing I learnt is that it's a melting pot. It's a

:16:53. > :17:00.big melting pot. I'm not clear in my own mind exactly how to handle,

:17:00. > :17:04.accept that we will help to fight the nationalists in some shape,

:17:04. > :17:08.sense or form. Pauline Goldsmith is an actress, originally from Belfast.

:17:08. > :17:12.She comes from a background. She has lived in Scotland for 16 years

:17:13. > :17:19.and says Irish and Scottish nationalism are very different.

:17:19. > :17:26.Independence in Scotland its very diverse. Its international looking

:17:26. > :17:30.it's not based on one religion. It's very mixed. Fundamentally, it

:17:30. > :17:36.has at its heart social justice and equality. That, I think, is what

:17:36. > :17:41.attracts people to independence who are not necessarily nationalists.

:17:41. > :17:48.Business man, Paul Nelson, is from a unionist background in Lisburn.

:17:48. > :17:55.He describes himself as an Ulster Scot. He settled in Glasgow 25

:17:55. > :17:58.years ago. I do think the Scottish independence will do more to damage

:17:58. > :18:02.the United Kingdom that that the -- than the IRA ever did is correct.

:18:02. > :18:07.There is no union after. That the IRA's objective in that respect

:18:07. > :18:14.would have gone. However, there would still be, presumably, a union

:18:14. > :18:16.between Northern Ireland and England? I think it puts it under

:18:16. > :18:23.tremendous pressure. Northern Ireland is an irrelevance for

:18:23. > :18:28.England. Journalist and author, Neil Mackay, is from a mixed

:18:28. > :18:33.religious background in Antrim. think Euniceism will find itself in

:18:33. > :18:38.a very difficult bind. Let's say in the hypothetical world that

:18:38. > :18:45.Scotland went independence, what is unionism? There is no union. What

:18:45. > :18:49.is going to happen to the DUP and the UUP? How do you define your

:18:49. > :18:54.ideological territory? What territory do you sit on? The union

:18:54. > :19:00.is not just with Scotland it is the rest of the United Kingdom. What it

:19:00. > :19:07.if the arch English person goes, we don't care if we lose Scotland.

:19:07. > :19:11.What about that much more problematic country? Our two

:19:11. > :19:14.politicians meet Humza Yousaf a rising star in the SNP. One of the

:19:14. > :19:18.faiszs of the referendum campaign, he has already been tipped as a

:19:18. > :19:23.future leader of his party. He describes himself as a Scottish

:19:23. > :19:31.Pakistani and says his party's brand of nationalism is all

:19:31. > :19:37.inclusive. What are you going to get through independence in terms

:19:37. > :19:43.of freedom and new law that is you can't get right now? What our

:19:43. > :19:48.independence is about is about independence to grow jobs. To

:19:48. > :19:56.create jobs. It's the independence to grow the economy. Independence

:19:56. > :20:01.not to send our sons and daughters to fight in illegal wars. It is the

:20:01. > :20:07.independence to create a welfare system that is just and that it

:20:07. > :20:12.doesn't punish the disabled. Who is going to pay for all this? We more

:20:12. > :20:17.than pay our own way. What are the implications of Scottish

:20:17. > :20:21.independence to your mind for example the north of Ireland. Do

:20:21. > :20:26.you think there are consequences or knock-on affects for us in terms of

:20:26. > :20:31.the future? That is a fair question to ask. There will be implications

:20:31. > :20:35.for the whole of the rest of the UK. Possibly wider as well. The English

:20:35. > :20:39.people want an English Parliament. Want an English representation.

:20:39. > :20:44.That has gone up massively and swelled in the last couple of

:20:44. > :20:50.months. It is their sporting ties that lead to some animated debate.

:20:50. > :20:56.I'm a glory hunter at heart, apart from Celtic football club, who I

:20:56. > :21:01.have supported all my life. know what the definition of an

:21:01. > :21:07.atheist is? What is that? Someone who goes from a Rangers Celtic

:21:07. > :21:12.match to watch the football. I wanted to ask Humza Yousaf what he

:21:13. > :21:17.made of the Ulster unionist leader's warning that the battle

:21:17. > :21:27.for Scottish independence could do more damage to the union than the

:21:27. > :21:30.

:21:30. > :21:38.IRA? I think it's a terrible comment to make. For the last 77 to

:21:38. > :21:41.compare a political party to the terrorist acts of mindless thuggery.

:21:41. > :21:47.It was felt that Scottish independence could re-ignite the

:21:47. > :21:52.conflict in Northern Ireland? is a very inflammatory statement to

:21:52. > :21:55.make. What is his reaction to Peter Robinson's call to unionists to

:21:55. > :21:58.campaign against Scottish independence? I would almost pay

:21:58. > :22:03.for their bus fare and train fare to come over. Every time unionists

:22:03. > :22:11.from Westminster or from outside of Scotland tries to interfere in the

:22:11. > :22:15.democratic will of the Scottish people, it backfires immensely.

:22:15. > :22:19.fears that they would not win a referendum on full independence

:22:19. > :22:25.have led them to offer the public the possibility of an extra

:22:25. > :22:29.question on the ballot paper. An option known as devolution max.

:22:29. > :22:35.That would increase the Scottish Parliament's powers, but falls just

:22:35. > :22:40.short of complete independence. It's a measure that finds support

:22:40. > :22:45.among many Scottish politicianes who want to stay inside the union.

:22:45. > :22:48.Politicians like former First Minister heny McLeish. I'm not

:22:48. > :22:53.looking for a compromise, bau better alternative which keeps

:22:53. > :23:02.Scotland within the union. Hopefully, a different union. It

:23:02. > :23:06.allows Scottish -- Scotland to have more financial powers. Devo max?

:23:06. > :23:12.It's home rule within the union. If you want to keep the union, be more

:23:12. > :23:20.sensitive to what parts of the union want. Alex Salmond wants --

:23:20. > :23:23.once painted a picture of Ireland Scotland and Iceland as arc of

:23:23. > :23:31.prosperity. Ireland and Iceland are now bust. Where does that leave

:23:31. > :23:35.Scotland? Could it stand on it is own financially. We put that

:23:35. > :23:43.question to Bill Jamieson? Executive edit Orthor of the

:23:43. > :23:48.Scotsman. There is a set of facts as the nationalists see. It in

:23:48. > :23:53.other words a Scotland that was accumulating North Sea oil reserves

:23:53. > :24:00.would be a very viable country and would not have any problem raising

:24:00. > :24:06.money on the international money markets. Another truth is, that an

:24:06. > :24:11.independent Scotland would not be able to survive. It wouldn't have a

:24:11. > :24:14.terrorism A rating. Could an independent Scotland maintain its

:24:14. > :24:20.current commitments to welfare spending and social benefits, and

:24:20. > :24:25.the unionists say, no, it cannot be depon. After much debate our dinner

:24:25. > :24:31.guests greed that ultimately money will decide Scotland's future. Paul

:24:31. > :24:34.Nelson does 90% of his trade in England and Wales. Is there

:24:34. > :24:42.business confidence in the notion of Scottish independence across

:24:42. > :24:45.business, would you say? Across business, I think, it's pretty

:24:45. > :24:50.solidly against Scottish independence. There are a few big

:24:50. > :24:57.main the hitters. To develop develop money we need open borders

:24:57. > :25:00.and less borders. We don't need more. Pauline Goldsmith gold says

:25:00. > :25:04.Scots must not allow the Republic of Ireland's experience frighten

:25:04. > :25:07.them away from independence. idea is that we would have more

:25:07. > :25:12.control and accountability of our politicians and our banks and the

:25:13. > :25:19.society we have if we had independence. If the union did

:25:20. > :25:27.break up, who would decide who gets what and how much? How do you

:25:27. > :25:34.untangle oil. In a divorce, who gets the art and the gold? Who gets

:25:34. > :25:38.the cat? It it -- it is bigger than a cat, it's North Sea oil.

:25:38. > :25:41.visiting is causing a stir. Some of our interest in the Scots is

:25:41. > :25:47.mirrored by their interest in us. On day three, our two politicians

:25:47. > :25:50.are being filmed by a BBC Scotland Newsnight crew. I'm from a Scottish

:25:50. > :25:54.background myself. I do not like the idea of Scots going into

:25:54. > :25:59.something that could end up in a narrow sectarian, narrow little

:25:59. > :26:03.state. Not dissimilar to that of the Irish Republic. Our two

:26:03. > :26:09.politicians are invited on to Call Kaye, one of Scotland's biggest

:26:09. > :26:14.radio talk shows. Let me know your thoughts this morning. Should we,

:26:14. > :26:21.in Scotland, care what impact independence should it ever come to

:26:21. > :26:27.pass, have on our neighbours, in Northern Ireland. The problem you

:26:27. > :26:30.have with nationalism. I have to speak about Irish Nationalism is

:26:30. > :26:36.that to prove itself it had to be different from everybody else.

:26:36. > :26:41.Therefore, polished up symbols and things and ideas which would be

:26:41. > :26:45.anathema to us from a non- nationalist viewpoint. Lord Laird

:26:45. > :26:50.ends up bearing the brunt of most of the callers anger, all deeply

:26:50. > :26:55.irritated by his former leader's suggestion that independence could

:26:55. > :26:57.re-ignite the conflict in Northern Ireland. These are just

:26:57. > :27:02.scaremongering stories that are being put around to try and

:27:02. > :27:06.frighten people into backing off from what is every nation's destiny,

:27:06. > :27:10.the right to control its own borders, to control its own

:27:10. > :27:16.economics, to do everything that is good for its own people and then to

:27:16. > :27:21.turn its attention to the world. have Stephen in Ayrshire. Morning.

:27:21. > :27:25.Good morning. I have listened with great interest. I have to say the

:27:25. > :27:31.unionist gentleman, from Ireland, he really has not got a grasp on

:27:32. > :27:35.the reality. Why should everything be controlled by London? He says he

:27:35. > :27:40.fears that Scotland would become rather narrow in the nationalism.

:27:40. > :27:44.The reality is we are a European nation. We are European now.

:27:44. > :27:49.terms of Ireland, are you excited by the fact that this debate is

:27:49. > :27:53.going on in Scotland? Are you hopeful that it might kind of re-

:27:53. > :27:57.ignite a different kind of fire, a nationalist fire in Ireland?

:27:57. > :28:01.would be keen not to express a partisan opinion on the internal

:28:01. > :28:05.debate within Scotland. It is, apparently, having an unsettling

:28:05. > :28:10.effect on unionism. Remember, I'm somebody that is opposed to the

:28:10. > :28:15.union. I suppose, it's interesting when John, John Laird would say

:28:15. > :28:24.things like, "I'm a unionist" if Scotland achieved its independence,

:28:24. > :28:29.who would the union be with? At the end of the day, it's a disappearing

:28:29. > :28:35.union. You got some stick on Call Kaye. Did you see her facial

:28:35. > :28:38.expresses when they were ringing in, "what planet does he live on?".

:28:38. > :28:43.What they were doing was listening carefully to what I said and taking

:28:43. > :28:48.in every word as if it was a gem or a pearl. Yeah, yeah. I think that

:28:48. > :28:52.is very interesting. It's a very important point. I was glad to meet

:28:52. > :28:58.Kaye, she is a big personality in broadcasting in Scotland.

:28:58. > :29:03.didn't know her surname. Her surname was Adams. You thautd --

:29:03. > :29:06.thought thats with a Scottish name. Easy to remember. Alphabetically it

:29:06. > :29:13.was always top of the ballot paper. For Scots the question of

:29:13. > :29:19.independence is a battle between head and heart. The long tradition

:29:19. > :29:23.of Scottish regularments in the British Army, pitted against modern

:29:23. > :29:31.fears of nuclear bases in Scotland. The desire to march into a new

:29:31. > :29:35.progress if future, lined up against the security of the past.

:29:35. > :29:40.All very difficult issues, but for Scottish Conservatives, the kaisz

:29:40. > :29:44.for the union is overwhelming. think there is a very strong

:29:44. > :29:48.argument both for the head and the heart for Scotland to remain part

:29:48. > :29:53.of the United Kingdom. If you look at Scottish soldiers wearing a