:00:18. > :00:27.This programme contains strong This programme contains strong
:00:27. > :00:37.language.. The end of a loyalist supergrass trial that cost the
:00:37. > :00:41.
:00:41. > :00:45.taxpayer millions of pounds. Nine men acquitted of murder, after the
:00:45. > :00:55.testimony of two state witness, the Stewart brothers was found to be
:00:55. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:34.infected with lies. It would have been obvious to anyone. What is
:01:35. > :01:42.being done to investigate those alleged to have colluded with
:01:42. > :01:52.killers. The UVF trial that ended in the acquittals was the result of
:01:52. > :01:58.
:01:58. > :02:03.a ground breaking report by the As a consequence, the position of
:02:03. > :02:13.the UVF, particularly in what Belfast was consolidated and
:02:13. > :02:21.
:02:21. > :02:26.Most significantly, the Ombudsman believes the gang was riddled with
:02:26. > :02:36.police informers. Nuala O'Lone recommended that two investigations
:02:36. > :02:46.
:02:46. > :02:51.be carried out as a matter of Tonight we can reveal five years on
:02:51. > :03:01.the investigation into allegations of police collusion appears to be
:03:01. > :03:05.going nowhere. We hear about deep concerns of what are seen as
:03:05. > :03:13.failure to follow through on recommendation to pursue those
:03:13. > :03:23.suspected of colluding in murder. don't quite understand why, no
:03:23. > :03:24.
:03:24. > :03:28.action was taken, because there is a statutory duty. My belief is the
:03:28. > :03:33.current ombudsman is under the same obligations I was and this should
:03:33. > :03:37.have been investigated. If you have police officers who were handlers,
:03:37. > :03:41.that needs to be dealt with as matter of priority. It really needs
:03:41. > :03:48.to be dealt with as matter of priority. Particularly where the
:03:48. > :03:53.crimes are murder. The ombudsman says all will be investigated and
:03:53. > :04:00.it complies with its statutory duty. How high did the alleged collusion
:04:00. > :04:07.with murder go? And what else do the Supergrasss have to reveal? It
:04:07. > :04:16.is not just about the UVF. These people may well been the puppets on
:04:16. > :04:26.the end of strings. Who dropped the practices and policies of that
:04:26. > :04:37.
:04:37. > :04:39.Hallowe'en night 2000. Traditionally, a family time.
:04:39. > :04:48.Newtonabbey Tommy English and his wife were at home with their three
:04:48. > :04:52.young children. Tommy was a one time UDA boss in North Belfast who
:04:52. > :04:56.had become involved in the peace process. He was a prominent member
:04:56. > :05:00.of the UDP. Just after tea time, Tommy and his wife Doreen were
:05:00. > :05:09.watching television in the living room. Their children, aged ten and
:05:09. > :05:15.under, were playing upstairs. Hearing a noise dar reen -- Doreen
:05:15. > :05:18.opened the back door to find men puts on masks, ready to sledge
:05:18. > :05:26.hammer their way into her house. They were pushing me and slapping
:05:26. > :05:31.me about with guns to get out of the road, and chaos, really. The
:05:31. > :05:38.biggest guy, he aimed the gun again, and I went for his face, just for
:05:38. > :05:42.his eye, to try and stop him, seeing what he was doing. And after
:05:42. > :05:52.that, I was hit in the head and the face with a gun, and punched a few
:05:52. > :05:53.
:05:53. > :06:02.times. Tommy was shot in the back, as he tried to run upstairs.
:06:02. > :06:11.Towards his children. He stopped and stared. All of a sudden, two
:06:11. > :06:21.men came to the bottom of the stairs. It was really just, bangs,
:06:21. > :06:27.you were hearing bang, and sort of blinking with the shock of the bang.
:06:27. > :06:34.And my dad started to fall backwards down the stairs. He
:06:34. > :06:40.landed in the hallway. They beat my mum so bad she was literally blood
:06:40. > :06:45.smeared all over her face, her clothes. We actually thought it was
:06:45. > :06:54.my dad's blood. The gunmen left and Mark's young sister ran into the
:06:54. > :06:58.street. I ran out the door, screaming for help, in bare feet,
:06:58. > :07:02.and I got to the neighbours and bashed their window, screaming for
:07:02. > :07:06.help, saying "Something's happened to my daddy, I neat help." They
:07:06. > :07:13.told me to go away, but I think they thought it was a Hallowe'en
:07:13. > :07:20.prank, and so I just kept running. And screaming. Mince later, two of
:07:20. > :07:26.the gunmen came back. They checked Thomas, and I lifted the phone, and
:07:26. > :07:31.I could hear what sounded to be the biggest one shouting "Get back here
:07:31. > :07:36.and finish the bastard off." Three times he shouted that and I was
:07:36. > :07:42.phoning for an ambulance, and then I started veeming "Please leave him
:07:42. > :07:45.alone. Don't shoot him again." And the smaller one shot him again.
:07:45. > :07:52.Mark and his twin brother Thomas junior pictured here as toddlers
:07:52. > :08:02.were beside their father, as he lay dying at the bottom of the stairs.
:08:02. > :08:02.
:08:02. > :08:11.We were terrified. Really terrified. We couldn't stop screaming. We sort
:08:11. > :08:16.of sat, stood for a while, and, in shock, we couldn't move. We were
:08:16. > :08:24.screaming, it was absolutely horrendous. Horrifying. For a child
:08:24. > :08:29.of that age, to watch their own parent die. Soon after the murder,
:08:29. > :08:34.police contacted Doreen with news of a potential lead. A man had been
:08:34. > :08:41.caught on CCTV, buying the sledge hammer which had been used in the
:08:41. > :08:46.attack. But Doreen English was about to get a terrible shock.
:08:46. > :08:54.brought me in, and asked me if I could be, if I would look at the
:08:54. > :08:59.photograph to see if I knew the person in that, and it was
:08:59. > :09:05.horrendous. I just couldn't believe my eyes. The man she was looking at
:09:05. > :09:11.in the footage, is her brother, Neil Pollock. It was one of the
:09:11. > :09:20.worst things I've ever had to do, was to say that's my brother. You
:09:20. > :09:26.know. It was just heart wrenching. Doreen helped to raise her young
:09:26. > :09:32.brother seen here as a page boy to her marriage to Tommy. Neil would
:09:32. > :09:36.join the couple on family holidays. Every day at the trial, Doreen
:09:36. > :09:40.faced her brother in the dock. He was found guilty of possessing an
:09:40. > :09:43.item intended for terrorism and of intent to pervert the course of
:09:43. > :09:50.justice. But Doreen believes he knows a lot more about her
:09:50. > :09:58.husband's death. What would you say to your brother, Neil, today,
:09:58. > :10:03.because he could help put your husband's murderers away. Well, I
:10:03. > :10:09.would just say "Neil my daddy brought you up with more morals,
:10:09. > :10:13.and I am just dumbfounded that you haven't had the decency in you to
:10:13. > :10:19.do the right thing, and I know it's a hard thing to do, to tell the
:10:19. > :10:22.truth, when there's so many people out there that's wanting to harm
:10:22. > :10:26.you, but I don't know how you will live with yourself if you don't do
:10:26. > :10:32.the right thing and tell what you know." At the time of the murder
:10:32. > :10:36.police said that the death was part of a bloody UDA, yuvyuv feud but
:10:36. > :10:39.Doreen says there may have been deeply personal motives for the
:10:39. > :10:44.selection of her husband as a target. Asked by police if she knew
:10:44. > :10:49.of anyone who wanted to do her husband harm she named two men. One
:10:49. > :10:53.was this man, Mark Haddock who has just been acquitted of the murder.
:10:53. > :10:58.Haddock and Thomas never seen eye to eye, the similar reason Thomas
:10:58. > :11:04.was in the UDA, he was in the UVF. They had a lot of run ins and it
:11:04. > :11:09.was more like a macho thing. Thomas wouldn't back down to him. They
:11:09. > :11:13.just hated each other. And the other was this man, John Bond, who
:11:13. > :11:18.was also acquitted. Doreen's brother-in-law who was married to
:11:18. > :11:25.her sister Christine. Christine Bond had an affair with Tommy
:11:25. > :11:31.English. They lived together for about four months. She had left
:11:31. > :11:34.John for Thomas and Thomas left her and she ended up with John. Apart
:11:34. > :11:38.from her brother the only two people who have been convicted of
:11:38. > :11:44.involvement in the murder of Tommy English are the Stewart brother,
:11:44. > :11:48.Robert and Ian who in August 2009 became assisting offenders. Doreen
:11:48. > :11:52.English says police told her that the brothers handed themselves in,
:11:52. > :11:57.just weeks after coming upon the scene of a motorbike accident, in
:11:57. > :12:01.which her son Thomas junior was killed. The boy, who was beside his
:12:01. > :12:06.father as he lay dying. According to police, the incident had a
:12:06. > :12:13.profound effect on the Stewarts. Who later confessed their role in
:12:13. > :12:23.the murder and implicated 14 other loyalists in up to 30 offences.
:12:23. > :12:25.
:12:25. > :12:28.They said that they had been having a hard time dealing with their part
:12:28. > :12:32.in Thomas's murder. And that our son died in a wee motorbike
:12:33. > :12:40.accident, and they said that they passed the scene that night that he
:12:40. > :12:44.-- died, and saw him, and after that, they went to England for a
:12:44. > :12:47.couple of weeks, and then basically couldn't live with themselves, it
:12:47. > :12:57.was like the last straw for them. That broke their back, so they
:12:57. > :12:59.
:12:59. > :13:04.The only good thing they came out of her brother's death, was the
:13:04. > :13:11.impact that seemed to have had on the stewards. You are always asking
:13:11. > :13:18.why. I went to myself, this is why he has died, to give us just us.
:13:18. > :13:24.That is Thomas's reason. I always thought, this is just this for us,
:13:24. > :13:28.he has died for just this. I also said to myself, it does show that
:13:28. > :13:32.the brothers to have remorse. there can be little doubt that the
:13:32. > :13:39.stewards decision was also influenced by the fact that they
:13:39. > :13:45.got 15 years of their sentence for murder. In his judgment, the judge
:13:45. > :13:50.described the Stewart Brothers as a ruthless criminals whose evidence
:13:50. > :13:58.was full of lies Anne's the memory was affected by many years of drug
:13:58. > :14:03.abuse. The judge said that these were obviously the same men wearing
:14:03. > :14:07.new suits. Robert Stewart also admitted it Fenty had had sex with
:14:07. > :14:12.a series of under-aged children. Revelations about the brothers
:14:13. > :14:18.raised a number of hard questions at for the prosecution service and
:14:18. > :14:21.the police, given that the case cost �15 million. How good the
:14:21. > :14:28.Public Prosecution Service had been the brothers to be credible
:14:28. > :14:33.witnesses, given the lack of any credible supporting evidence? The
:14:33. > :14:38.director of the PPS it recently told the BBC that he was satisfied
:14:38. > :14:45.there was a case to answer. There is a basis for being extremely
:14:45. > :14:49.careful in the way of the evidence in a case such as this and. I am
:14:49. > :14:54.satisfied that there was a very careful consideration of the
:14:54. > :14:58.material in this case. The police spent two years assessing the
:14:58. > :15:08.Stewart Brothers, but stressed that the deal was a matter for the PDS.
:15:08. > :15:17.
:15:17. > :15:22.While the murder of Tommy English was one of a number of killings
:15:22. > :15:27.investigated by the former Police Ombudsman NEWLINE alone, the report
:15:27. > :15:31.itself had been triggered by the father of a murder victim. Raymond
:15:31. > :15:36.mid-court had bought a complaint to her office in 2003. He believed
:15:36. > :15:40.that his son had been murdered by members of the UVF gang and that
:15:40. > :15:44.the police investigation had been hampered because the killers were
:15:44. > :15:49.Special Branch informers. In the course of the investigation, at
:15:49. > :15:54.Nuala O'Lone looked again at up to 15 murders which she suspected have
:15:54. > :15:58.not been properly investigated by police because at least four of the
:15:58. > :16:05.chief suspects were Special Branch Agents, actively involved in the
:16:05. > :16:10.UVF murder operations. Of the four police agents mentioned, informant
:16:10. > :16:14.one is now widely believed to be this man, Mark Haddock. He was one
:16:14. > :16:20.of the two men whose names of Doreen English says she gave to
:16:20. > :16:26.police and the night of her husband's murder. He was actually
:16:26. > :16:33.arrested for questioning shortly after Thomas was murdered and he
:16:33. > :16:38.was found to have documents in his car with Thomas's name, address,
:16:38. > :16:43.registration and make of car. O'Lone's report confirmed that
:16:43. > :16:47.there was intelligence linking Mark Haddock and three of his associates
:16:47. > :16:52.to the killing of Tommy English. They were arrested a week later for
:16:52. > :16:56.provided alibis for each other and were released without charge. I
:16:56. > :17:01.first investigated Mark Haddock in 2006. At that stage I was unable to
:17:01. > :17:06.name him for legal reasons, but I spoke to the man who first
:17:07. > :17:10.recruited him as a CID informer. Speaking publicly for the first
:17:10. > :17:15.time Trevor Mackle wrath told me that alarm bells began ringing
:17:15. > :17:19.after his agent was recruited by Special Branch in 1991. Be heard
:17:19. > :17:23.reports that Mark Haddock have been arrested as the driver in a
:17:23. > :17:30.suspected murder, only to be released cater without charge.
:17:30. > :17:37.could not be seen to be the only one that got away. The gunman was
:17:37. > :17:43.caught, he was the driver, so he was called, too. He spent six or
:17:43. > :17:49.nine months on demand, then one day the charges were withdrawn. Or
:17:49. > :17:54.dropped by the Director of Public Prosecutions. But from the moment
:17:54. > :18:03.he got into the murder car he was never going to be prosecuted for
:18:03. > :18:07.that murder bid. No. They go so was an informer? Correct. It in 2006
:18:07. > :18:10.Michael wrath was adamant that he had alerted his superiors did the
:18:10. > :18:18.fact that an agent was out of control, but he was repeatedly
:18:18. > :18:25.ignored. How high up to disco on? Senior ranking policeman would have
:18:25. > :18:30.known? Yes. He in the 1990s most of the victims of the UVF were
:18:30. > :18:34.loyalists. But some of the attacks on local nationalists were purely
:18:34. > :18:43.sectarian, including to one Mark Haddock and his gang are alleged to
:18:43. > :18:46.have carried out on this man, whose case was also re-examined. In March
:18:46. > :18:51.1992 John Flynn worked for a Catholic taxi firm near Mount
:18:51. > :18:58.Vernon. One evening he was called to wait at the hospital were a
:18:58. > :19:02.gunman was lying in wait. I went down towards five, head the horn.
:19:02. > :19:10.Nobody was about. Two minutes later somebody appeared out of the
:19:10. > :19:18.darkness. With a grey hooded top. He pulled a weapon. It didn't go
:19:19. > :19:23.off, so I ran and he ran after me. I fell and he stood over me. The
:19:23. > :19:28.weapon did not work again, you know? I don't know where I got the
:19:28. > :19:34.string from, but I grabbed him and the weapon. I knew once I got my
:19:34. > :19:42.hands on its that I had a chance, you know? He would not let go of it
:19:42. > :19:49.and either we dive. I lifted him clean off the ground. Through the
:19:49. > :19:59.window. In the doctor's surgery. Was the attacker wearing a mask?
:19:59. > :20:07.
:20:07. > :20:15.Know. What did he look like? I give a Photofit at the police station.
:20:15. > :20:21.He had short dark hair, skin Head tide. Moustache. Well built. Tattoo.
:20:21. > :20:27.Where was the tattoo? On his arm. The description resembled some of
:20:27. > :20:32.the details of the appearance of Mark Haddock. Intelligence sources
:20:32. > :20:38.at the time pointed to the Mark Haddock. Agents after that told us
:20:38. > :20:41.that Mark Haddock had done that. John Flynn says he believes the
:20:41. > :20:46.attacker's prints were on the gun that was left that the scene and
:20:46. > :20:52.possibly his blood on his clothes. In 1997 the UVF tried to kill him
:20:52. > :21:01.again by printing a bomb under his car. The two days later I got a
:21:01. > :21:07.mass card through the post. It said on it, third time lucky. UVF,
:21:07. > :21:11.Tiger's Bay. Nuala O'Lone concluded that the collusion was systemic.
:21:11. > :21:15.She found evidence that police had withheld information about agents
:21:15. > :21:20.suspected of murder and subjected informants to sham interviews
:21:20. > :21:25.before releasing them without charge. She also found that Special
:21:25. > :21:30.Branch had routinely destroyed a evidence linking agents to crimes.
:21:30. > :21:33.Nuala O'Lone was convinced that this was a deliberate strategy and
:21:33. > :21:41.that junior officers could not have operated as they did without what
:21:41. > :21:46.she called knowledge and support at the highest levels of the RUC, PSNI.
:21:46. > :21:52.It was very, very shocking and remains shocking. Where we had
:21:52. > :21:56.found clear evidence of collusion, were we have found clear evidence
:21:56. > :22:02.that crimes which had been admitted to, of which police were aware, had
:22:02. > :22:06.not been prosecuted. Crimes which clearly required proper
:22:06. > :22:10.investigation and had not been investigated. Nuala O'Lone was so
:22:10. > :22:16.shocked by the potential scale of the collusion that she recommended
:22:16. > :22:19.that not only should the killers be investigated properly, but also
:22:19. > :22:24.allegations that handlers and their superiors had been involved in
:22:24. > :22:31.murder, but so far not a single charge has resulted from the second
:22:31. > :22:36.investigation. So, why has one of the investigations fallen so far
:22:36. > :22:40.behind the other? In 2007 the Historical Enquiries Team was asked
:22:40. > :22:44.to implement the recommendations of the ballast report. The lawyer who
:22:44. > :22:49.acts on behalf of some of the victims says that his impression
:22:49. > :22:54.was that the Historical Enquiries Team was making good progress.
:22:54. > :23:00.were getting good teeth into this case, as I understand it, and were
:23:00. > :23:05.examining all aspects, including the investigation of handlers.
:23:05. > :23:08.2009 the investigation into loyalist killings was transferred
:23:08. > :23:12.to the police's Serious Crime Branch. The police said this was
:23:12. > :23:15.the most appropriate mechanism to take the work forward and the
:23:15. > :23:20.investigation of the police handlers and controllers was
:23:20. > :23:23.transferred to the ombudsman's office. But three years later there
:23:23. > :23:28.appears to have been little movement. We understand that as
:23:28. > :23:30.recently as last month there were just two officers are signed to the
:23:30. > :23:35.investigation of handlers and controllers are suspected of
:23:35. > :23:38.involvement in serious crimes, including murder. A situation which
:23:38. > :23:46.we understand the Ombudsman has attributed to a serious lack of
:23:46. > :23:51.resources. Nuala O'Lone says that if that is the case, it is just not
:23:51. > :23:56.good enough. I tell you something, it is possible to do this with
:23:56. > :24:00.maybe a dozen members of staff. Certainly, the number of
:24:00. > :24:04.investigators that the Police Ombudsman has, and with the number
:24:04. > :24:09.of investigators whom I had working on historical cases, we managed to
:24:09. > :24:12.do it. He if you were still the ombudsman, with the investigation
:24:12. > :24:19.of handlers and their controllers be your priority? I would have
:24:19. > :24:22.carried on from where I left off. As the evidence began to come
:24:22. > :24:27.through from the police investigations, I would have been
:24:27. > :24:31.proceeding with my investigations. We as the Ombudsman to confirm how
:24:31. > :24:35.many staff had been assigned to this investigation since 2009 and
:24:35. > :24:45.how much funding had been requested for this aspect of its
:24:45. > :25:06.
:25:06. > :25:10.investigation? Has anyone been Some of the families of the victims
:25:10. > :25:14.are also deeply troubled by the fact that they had thought that
:25:14. > :25:18.both investigations into the alleged killers and the police
:25:18. > :25:22.handlers were being supervised by a specially established oversight
:25:22. > :25:28.panel consisting of Nuala O'Lone and a leading barrister, Richard
:25:28. > :25:38.Harvey. In reality, the panel is only looking at the investigation
:25:38. > :25:42.
:25:42. > :25:47.into loyalists. One of the concerns which Richard Hardy and I have is
:25:47. > :25:51.that if the Police Ombudsman is in doing their handler and controllers
:25:51. > :25:55.stuff, they are not investigating that, but the police are
:25:55. > :25:59.investigating murders. It is not impossible that you might end up
:25:59. > :26:05.with somebody charged in court to turns round in court and says,
:26:05. > :26:09.actually, my handler told me I could do this. Then there would be
:26:09. > :26:13.serious problems. It is important that the Police Ombudsman is
:26:13. > :26:17.working as fast as the police. of those who criticised the speed
:26:17. > :26:21.of the investigation into handlers believes that the failure of the
:26:21. > :26:28.reasons Supergrass trial may have been a deliberate attempt to
:26:28. > :26:34.frustrate justice. People other than Special Branch handlers and
:26:34. > :26:39.controllers have been used this scapegoats to promote in a
:26:39. > :26:44.disproportionate way and downsize the key sensitive investigation
:26:44. > :26:47.then needs to take place, and that is a full-scale criminal
:26:47. > :26:52.investigation against the Special Branch handlers and controllers.
:26:52. > :26:58.That has not happened. Instead there has been a diversion and the
:26:58. > :27:04.focus of money and resources, millions of pounds, to promote what
:27:04. > :27:09.a month you could be perceived as a showcase supergrass trial to the
:27:09. > :27:19.exclusion of the other core component of Operation Ballast.
:27:19. > :27:21.
:27:21. > :27:26.is a view shared by the Committee on the administration of justice.
:27:26. > :27:31.It is a mystery to us sitting on the outside why no other
:27:32. > :27:35.prosecutions have taken place prior to this. In relation to the matters
:27:35. > :27:45.that were uncovered in the ballast report that would have used other
:27:45. > :27:52.types of evidence that might have been more effective why do you
:27:52. > :27:58.think? Whether it's to prevent embarrassment or cover up the
:27:58. > :28:04.misconduct of police officers. But that is the case it is unacceptable.
:28:04. > :28:09.No one is above the law. There is now growing specification that's
:28:09. > :28:15.the forthcoming Gary Haggarty trial that will finally bring the police
:28:15. > :28:20.handlers and their agents to ahead. Haggarty turned Supergrass after he
:28:20. > :28:26.was charged with the murder of John Harman's son in 1997. The dried
:28:26. > :28:31.fruit -- the body of a taxi driver was found in Mount Vernon. He had
:28:31. > :28:35.been beaten beyond recognition. His co-accused in their case is Mark
:28:35. > :28:40.Haddock. So, given the acquittals in the recent supergrass case, does
:28:41. > :28:46.the UVF have much to fear from the forthcoming Hegarty trial? They
:28:46. > :28:52.might say, look at the Stuart case, look at how it ended. Will the
:28:53. > :28:57.Hegarty case be any different? we got anything more to fear?
:28:57. > :29:03.spoke to a senior loyalist, someone who would know Hegarty very well
:29:03. > :29:08.and he said compare to the Stewarts, Hegarty would be A* witness. A
:29:08. > :29:14.memory as sharp as a razor. Someone referred to as Mr gadget. He walked
:29:14. > :29:17.about with all sorts of gadgetry and recording equipment. What the
:29:17. > :29:22.loyalist leadership fears is that he may have recorded some of their
:29:23. > :29:28.meetings. Gary Hegarty reaches of the on the UPF. It is level of the
:29:28. > :29:33.organisation he would have sat at meetings of the military command,
:29:33. > :29:39.so do they fear him more than the Stewart Brothers? They did fear his
:29:39. > :29:44.information, his credibility, his status more. Loyalist spokes people
:29:44. > :29:48.such as Ken Watkinson warned of dire consequences if the assisting
:29:48. > :29:52.offenders system is used to prosecute senior UVF figures.
:29:52. > :29:59.People have to look at what they are bringing down an art community.
:29:59. > :30:03.I stress quite clearly now that if they continue with these they are
:30:03. > :30:08.going to destabilise loyalist communities. When you say
:30:08. > :30:14.destabilise, what do you mean? people who are there within
:30:14. > :30:19.loyalism, of within the section of loyalism that I deal with have been
:30:19. > :30:24.there for the last 30 years working at that to bring down a peaceful
:30:24. > :30:30.roads, and they have achieved that. Why take people back? Out take
:30:30. > :30:37.these people out of our society, the stabilisers? Why leave the
:30:37. > :30:41.young hawks are there? In a way, that is a threat. So, should be not
:30:41. > :30:48.go after the UVF because it might destabilise that leadership? Or are
:30:48. > :30:52.we not going after that UVF leadership because the real story
:30:52. > :30:56.is were dead UVF leadership takes you to? It takes you to see people
:30:56. > :31:02.and to see places and those people in those places are not meant to be
:31:02. > :31:06.seen. One pointer as to how this might happen can be seen him walk
:31:06. > :31:14.Ken Watkinson says is his attitude to the naming of police handlers
:31:14. > :31:19.and their superiors. We all want to know. We want to know who the
:31:19. > :31:26.handlers are. These people are damaging our society, my community.
:31:26. > :31:30.I think it goes right to the very top of government. I think they
:31:30. > :31:34.have to look at themselves. Sometimes these people might have
:31:34. > :31:42.to look in the mirror instead of continually pointing the finger --
:31:42. > :31:46.pointing the finger against us. Last week Gary Haggarty lost... he
:31:46. > :31:49.gave police as an assisting an offender over two years of
:31:49. > :31:53.intensive debriefing so. The court heard that on those tapes he has
:31:53. > :32:02.made allegations of criminality by him and by others including police
:32:02. > :32:06.officers. The Haggarty case offers a significant opportunity to
:32:06. > :32:11.advance the investigation of police handlers, according to Nuala O'Lone.
:32:11. > :32:16.There is currently another assisting offenders like the
:32:16. > :32:21.Stewart Brothers being interviewed. The Police Ombudsman is Billy aware
:32:21. > :32:27.of what is happening in that. Any material which has been given by
:32:28. > :32:33.that person which relates to police officer misconduct or criminality,
:32:33. > :32:36.the Police Ombudsman will already have. I guess if I was the Police
:32:36. > :32:42.Ombudsman that would be being followed up. It seems to me from
:32:42. > :32:52.what is being said that they have not got to that stage. Last night
:32:52. > :32:58.
:32:58. > :33:04.In the meantime, John Flynn says he will keep fighting until he gets
:33:04. > :33:08.justice. He is taking a judicial review against the Police Ombudsman
:33:08. > :33:13.and the Chief Constable to explain the lack of movement in the current
:33:13. > :33:17.investigation into alleged collusion. Would you encourage
:33:17. > :33:21.former Special Branch handlers to co-operate in any future inquiry?
:33:21. > :33:26.think that people should co-operate as much as possible. I would urge
:33:26. > :33:29.people in as much as they feel they can themselves to come forward and
:33:29. > :33:34.Corporate because it is in the interests of all of us to make sure
:33:34. > :33:39.that the trip comes out and that justice is done. That is the key
:33:39. > :33:43.point as far as the public is concerned to -- confirmed, that
:33:43. > :33:47.victims get justice. As to whether or not the role of loyalist and
:33:47. > :33:53.republican informants and their handlers will ever see the light of
:33:53. > :33:57.day, opinions are divided. We are meant to live with this notion that
:33:57. > :34:02.this was a place of warring tribes that had within it an honest
:34:03. > :34:07.referee. The honest referee became a player in the war. That is why we
:34:07. > :34:13.talk about the dirty war and its ugly truths. I think that is why
:34:13. > :34:19.they will always be barriers in the way of a trip process and it is why
:34:19. > :34:25.we will never have MI5, the Special Branch, the army, the police in the
:34:25. > :34:29.same room with the IRA and loyalists. Do you think the trip
:34:29. > :34:33.will ever come out? I think the truth has a way of coming out
:34:33. > :34:36.eventually, yes. I don't think anyone would have expected there