:00:29. > :00:32.Hello and welcome to this Spotlight Special where our studio audience
:00:32. > :00:36.have the chance to put their questions and voice their concerns
:00:36. > :00:39.directly to our panel. Among them the politicians who take the
:00:39. > :00:43.decisions that shape all our lives. On tonight's panel, Jeffrey
:00:43. > :00:46.Donaldson - The DUP's Member of Parliament for Lagan Valley.
:00:46. > :00:48.Declan Kearney - Sinn Fein's national chairperson and a long-
:00:48. > :00:51.standing member of the party leadership and negotiating team.
:00:51. > :00:53.He's been engaged in reaching out to Protestants, whether they like
:00:53. > :00:56.it or not. The Dublin-based journalist and
:00:56. > :00:59.author Dearbhail McDonald. Born in Newry, she's the legal editor for
:00:59. > :01:02.the Irish Independent newspaper. Steve Hewlett is a former editor of
:01:02. > :01:06.BBC Panorama, and among the many strings to his current bow, he
:01:06. > :01:09.presents Radio Four's Media Show and is a columnist for The Guardian.
:01:09. > :01:11.And the Strangford MLA David McNarry, who after a lifetime as an
:01:11. > :01:14.Ulster Unionist, joined the UK Independence Party in October,
:01:14. > :01:24.since when UKIP's fortunes have risen, but that is probably down to
:01:24. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:33.other factors than David's membership. I must also said that
:01:33. > :01:37.David has a very fine choice in l'Equipe this evening. Excellent! -
:01:37. > :01:42.- in a neck where this evening. And that's our line-up for
:01:42. > :01:45.tonight's Spotlight Special. And you at home have your part to
:01:45. > :01:47.play. We want to know what you think about the burning issues of
:01:47. > :01:50.the day. You can text your comments
:01:50. > :01:55.throughout the programme to 81771. You can also phone and email us,
:01:55. > :01:58.and you can tweet your comments to us at: #spotlightni. The details
:01:58. > :02:02.are on your screen now. Calls cost up to 5p per minute from
:02:02. > :02:12.most landlines. Calls from mobiles may cost considerably more. Texts
:02:12. > :02:12.
:02:12. > :02:20.will be charged at your standard message rate. Let us turn now to a
:02:20. > :02:28.work first question. It comes from a student. How can you justify the
:02:28. > :02:34.Union flag not been flown in a UK capital city. This honestly we
:02:34. > :02:40.first to the flying of the Union flag only been allowed on
:02:40. > :02:47.designated days. Let us turn to Declan Coney first. It is the UK
:02:47. > :02:52.capital city, so why can't you fly the flag of the UK? It is an issue
:02:52. > :03:00.of equality. Belfast is a changing city. Last night there was further
:03:00. > :03:06.change. I do not think we can reduce this issue to zero politics.
:03:06. > :03:10.Almost half the population of Belfast are nationalist and
:03:10. > :03:15.republican people. The decision made last night was the right one.
:03:15. > :03:23.It was a decision for equality and we need to continue travelling in
:03:23. > :03:31.that direction. I think it is lamentable to listen to the
:03:31. > :03:34.comments from some politicians. I must ask what does that response to
:03:34. > :03:39.fundamental issues of equality and mutual respect in our society and
:03:39. > :03:44.the step forward that was taken last night say to nationalists and
:03:44. > :03:50.republicans in Belfast? Belfast needs to be a city for all of its
:03:50. > :04:00.citizens. He taught about zero-sum politics, but you would have liked
:04:00. > :04:06.
:04:06. > :04:11.Nationalists and republicans did not get what they wanted last night.
:04:11. > :04:21.They would have preferred it that the flag was not flown at all.
:04:21. > :04:24.
:04:24. > :04:30.Unionist didn't get what they wanted either. We had a compromise.
:04:30. > :04:35.That compromise is a compromise which is absurd daily in Stormont,
:04:35. > :04:41.so let us take the Template from Stormont and applied to the
:04:41. > :04:48.politics of City Hall in Belfast. Why not, or Jeffrey Donaldson?
:04:48. > :04:56.most people in Belfast the real problems in Belfast are about
:04:56. > :05:00.health, education, employment. is a big issue for you. We will
:05:00. > :05:05.confronted with it, but in terms of priorities, this is not a priority
:05:05. > :05:09.for most people out there and I were consultation in Belfast
:05:09. > :05:12.revealed that the majority, an overwhelming majority of people who
:05:12. > :05:17.responded to the consultation said they did not want to change the
:05:17. > :05:22.status quo. Sinn Fein took about equality, but mutual respect means
:05:22. > :05:28.you respect the traditions and identities on both sides of the
:05:28. > :05:38.communities in Northern Ireland. Right now, Unionists are filled
:05:38. > :05:39.
:05:40. > :05:49.that Sinn Fein are disrespected -- Unionists feel that Sinn Fein are
:05:50. > :05:50.
:05:50. > :05:55.disrespect in them. We are part of the United Kingdom and Sinn Fein
:05:55. > :06:00.should show some respect for and Britishness. While changes would
:06:00. > :06:05.you make to accommodate nationalist aspirations. A nationalists have
:06:05. > :06:09.the right to pursue their culture and identity. Northern Ireland is
:06:09. > :06:14.part of the United Kingdom and that will not change. Therefore, the
:06:14. > :06:21.Union flag ought to be respected. If I was living in Dublin, even if
:06:21. > :06:30.I were a Unionist, I would respect the fact that the settled will of
:06:30. > :06:34.the people in the republic is to have a separate state and I would
:06:34. > :06:43.respect their flag. The flag of this country is the Union flag and
:06:43. > :06:49.it should be given its place. would like to say very clearly that
:06:49. > :06:53.there is a solution. There are 27 countries in the European Union. I
:06:53. > :07:03.believe that every flag in the European Union should be flown
:07:03. > :07:03.
:07:03. > :07:08.around City Hall and other countries that invest, when they
:07:08. > :07:18.invest for jobs, I believe put them up as well and then everybody's
:07:18. > :07:19.
:07:19. > :07:22.happy. The gentleman down here in the blue shirt. Respect for one
:07:22. > :07:26.another and respect to one another's communities and
:07:26. > :07:33.traditions, flying the Union flag over Belfast City Hall has nothing
:07:33. > :07:36.to do with it. The vast majority of people here want to live in peace
:07:36. > :07:44.and the flag flying over Belfast has nothing to do with it.
:07:44. > :07:54.Politicians should move on. We have a shared future together. People
:07:54. > :07:54.
:07:54. > :08:00.are saying just move on. I hope we she was that easy. For someone like
:08:00. > :08:07.me who was in Stormont, the decision last night was paid back
:08:07. > :08:13.politics. These people, this man beside Nina has an agenda that is
:08:13. > :08:17.completely different from mine. I will live with that. Thank God I am
:08:18. > :08:23.allowed to live with it today because it's not so long ago that
:08:23. > :08:32.my life and many people like me's lives were in jeopardy because
:08:32. > :08:37.people could not live alongside me. It is hurting a lot of people, last
:08:38. > :08:46.night's decision and it will leave a lasting scar on how we develop or
:08:46. > :08:53.move on, as this Gentleman says. I am not too sure that people
:08:53. > :08:57.understand, people understood that when they decided that the way
:08:57. > :09:03.forward was the Belfast Agreement that they left things behind them
:09:03. > :09:08.because I understood as a Unionist that in agreeing to the Belfast
:09:08. > :09:12.Agreement, Sinn Fein were agreeing to recognise the constitutional
:09:12. > :09:17.position of Northern Ireland and that gives Northern Ireland and
:09:17. > :09:23.entitlement to fly the Union flag in its City Hall, as a gentleman
:09:23. > :09:28.said, it's a capital city. That is where it should be left. But he was
:09:28. > :09:33.a democratic vote of the city council. It was a democratic vote
:09:33. > :09:36.in the City Council aided and abetted by the one-party that has
:09:36. > :09:46.this Ballers mandate. But these still a democratic vote. Gentlemen
:09:46. > :09:48.
:09:48. > :09:58.in the front. The people who agreed to take the flak macro down were
:09:58. > :10:01.
:10:01. > :10:07.all signatories in the Good Friday Agreement. -- take the flag down.
:10:07. > :10:11.Gen to none in the red top. believe the violence last night was
:10:11. > :10:17.an act of frustration based on the people who were carrying it forward.
:10:17. > :10:22.The reality is that as long as they feel their political awareness is
:10:22. > :10:26.being undermined, that will be the case. The real way they can change
:10:26. > :10:29.that true democracy is to get out and vote. Unionist people in
:10:29. > :10:38.Northern Ireland for the last 25 years have not voted and they
:10:38. > :10:48.cannot expect to get their views seen and heard if they don't.
:10:48. > :10:52.
:10:52. > :10:58.struck me, and I am a Catholic, was what people dislike was the level
:10:58. > :11:03.of contrivance. There was a strong level of contrivance in the debate
:11:03. > :11:10.and the response which resulted in the violence last night. Jeffrey,
:11:10. > :11:15.this is not the priority for the majority of people in Belfast and I
:11:15. > :11:21.agree with you. It is not to dismiss traditional culture. We are
:11:21. > :11:31.going through a different and difficult process in terms of
:11:31. > :11:31.
:11:31. > :11:39.equality. However, they cannot be equality in everything. I dislike
:11:39. > :11:47.the fact that it was so contrived. So Steve, I hesitate to get you
:11:47. > :11:56.involved, but you have made lots of programmes in Northern Ireland.
:11:56. > :11:59.Well, not in the slightest, I made films in Northern Ireland when it
:11:59. > :12:03.was a very different place. I haven't had a lot to do with
:12:03. > :12:08.Northern Ireland since. I maintain an interest. I come here every now
:12:08. > :12:12.and then, professionally, I got involved in the Good Friday
:12:12. > :12:18.greement because I was at Panorama at the time. The thing that struck
:12:18. > :12:25.me, I hate to say this company, because I am on foreign territory
:12:25. > :12:30.here, the surprising thing will last night... Only according to
:12:30. > :12:34.Declan. Sinn Fein voted for the Union jack to be flown on the top
:12:34. > :12:42.of City Hall. When I was in Northern Ireland, they they would
:12:42. > :12:45.have ripped it up, and happily shot anyone seen carrying it... Not Sinn
:12:46. > :12:52.Fein, of course. The thing that stood out to me, there was the
:12:52. > :12:55.Republican movement saying "yes, fly the Union jack on top of the
:12:55. > :13:00.city Hall." That is a symbol of what is changing in Northern
:13:00. > :13:03.Ireland. I look at this place with aur really because it it come so
:13:03. > :13:09.far, such a very, very long way and I maybe wrong about this, I hope
:13:09. > :13:13.I'm right, I maybe wrong, there are moments when the old thing twitches
:13:13. > :13:17.and this is perhaps a bit of a twitch, I hope it is a twitch.
:13:17. > :13:24.Lots more hands. The gentleman in the striped jumper.
:13:24. > :13:27.The only reason why why Sinn Fein had the vote for designated days
:13:27. > :13:31.because the Alliance Party didn't want the flag to come down. That
:13:31. > :13:35.was the compromise. If Sinn Fein had the majority, or the
:13:35. > :13:40.Republicans had the majority they would vote for the flag to come
:13:40. > :13:44.down. Once upon a time, standing on
:13:44. > :13:49.principle would have led to escalation. Maybe it was for
:13:49. > :13:55.political end, or a cynical manoeuvre. I wouldn't under
:13:55. > :14:00.estimate how the Unionist population feel today after the
:14:00. > :14:06.shenanigans of last night's vote. I really fear this has put us back a
:14:06. > :14:11.long way in what we're trying to do and what you alluded to we had
:14:11. > :14:15.achieved. We have a lot to overcome. The gentleman in the red tie and
:14:15. > :14:20.the gentleman at the front. It was contrived on Facebook and we
:14:20. > :14:25.are small fish in a big pool. The whole world sees us and we
:14:25. > :14:29.shouldn't be using social networking sites like that.
:14:29. > :14:34.The gentleman in the red tie? to clarify, I don't think what the
:14:34. > :14:41.gentleman said there is accurate. It wasn't a vote in favour of the
:14:41. > :14:44.flag being flown on designated days. Councillor McVeigh made it clear,
:14:45. > :14:51.it was a tactical vote. And the effect of the vote was to
:14:51. > :14:56.have the flag flown on the designated number of days? It was
:14:56. > :15:00.not a positive step. Noel, we struck a compromise and in
:15:00. > :15:07.the interest of ensuring there is equality and inclusion for all
:15:07. > :15:12.citizens in Belfast. Declan, I want to ask you a quick question. There
:15:12. > :15:18.is another compromise now they flag the flag 365 days of the year on
:15:18. > :15:22.the war memorial, would you accept that? I think that is a piece of
:15:22. > :15:31.gratuitous... I am not going to take it any further than that.
:15:31. > :15:39.You don't approve. It is important to make this point. It It
:15:39. > :15:46.politicises it. Why didn't they suggest the flag being flown over
:15:46. > :15:55.the Cenotaph... The Aliesance Party said they might support that. The
:15:55. > :16:00.second question comes from Timothy Haslett. Does the panel think that
:16:00. > :16:08.statutory regulation is necessary? Well, we know, I hope we know what
:16:08. > :16:11.the Leveson Report is. It has been Cameron is not happy about the
:16:11. > :16:15.legal under pinning of it and great shenanigans going on, again that
:16:15. > :16:20.word in Westminster, but Steve, we brought you over for a reason, you
:16:20. > :16:29.know, Leveson a good idea, a bad idea? Well, it was necessary. It
:16:29. > :16:36.was necessary when David Cameron called it phone hacking, the
:16:36. > :16:43.dreadful hacking of Milly Dowler's voicemail. It riched a pitch when
:16:43. > :16:45.something had to happen and periodically it does. Is it
:16:45. > :16:52.statstry regulation? Well, you could argue about that. What
:16:52. > :16:54.Leveson could say, new tribunal, do what you are told. He didn't. He
:16:54. > :17:01.said the press will regulate itself and the regulation of the press
:17:01. > :17:06.will be validated by a body recognised in statute. What statute
:17:06. > :17:11.does, it says here the principles and we are going to sit back and we
:17:11. > :17:14.are going to validate the press's self regulator. A lot of people are
:17:14. > :17:18.saying if you don't have the statutory back-up, you don't have
:17:18. > :17:21.any come compulsion, there is no compulsion in the Leveson Report.
:17:22. > :17:26.He doesn't ask the question what happens if the newspapers don't get
:17:26. > :17:29.involved? He says the Government would have to consider statutory
:17:29. > :17:32.regulation possibly by Ofcom. It is not statutory regulation of the
:17:32. > :17:38.sort that perhaps it could have been. However, you are not out of
:17:38. > :17:42.the woods yet because here is why - the body that validates the self
:17:43. > :17:49.regulator is, he says, should be Ofcom. As the Minister for Culture
:17:49. > :17:55.said, "I appoint the Chairman of Ofcom." the validating body, that
:17:55. > :18:02.validates the regulator. What happens When the validating body
:18:02. > :18:06.and the regulator falls out. Perhaps they fall out. How much
:18:06. > :18:10.intrusion is justified by what level of public interest? If you
:18:10. > :18:20.are exposing people strug smuggling or whatever, lots of intrusion is
:18:20. > :18:21.
:18:21. > :18:26.justified. If you are looking into some celebrity's love life there is
:18:26. > :18:30.a continuum. Supposing there is a rumpus. Somebody gets wrongly
:18:30. > :18:34.accused of something. If you have a free press, these things will
:18:34. > :18:40.happen. Pressure is on. Sort it out. The validating body, under
:18:40. > :18:45.Leveson's proposals has the right to an ad hoc audit of the regulator
:18:45. > :18:51.and the validating body is subject to public pressure and before you
:18:51. > :18:55.know it, you have the application of public pressure for which read
:18:55. > :18:59.political influence on the way the press is regulated. My personal
:18:59. > :19:04.view is this proposal, the Leveson proposal, when you get into the
:19:04. > :19:10.nuts and bolts of it is very hard, very, very hard to implement which
:19:10. > :19:15.is why all the stuff you have seen on the news today, if the press is
:19:15. > :19:22.able to come up with something that is Leveson compliant, my guess is
:19:22. > :19:26.that is what will happen. Page 1718 of the Leveson Report
:19:26. > :19:33.alludes to the Irish model. Just explain that to us and how that
:19:33. > :19:38.worked? For those of you who have read Leveson... All of us. It could
:19:38. > :19:47.be described as Leveson-light. We have had a form of self-regulation
:19:47. > :19:50.in the form of Press Council and Press Ombudsman. That was given a a
:19:50. > :19:53.statutory recognition and now the reports in the Republic of Ireland
:19:53. > :19:57.can take into account whether a newspaper engaged with the Press
:19:57. > :20:01.Council or not. It can be taken into into consideration. A lot of
:20:01. > :20:07.people were cherned -- concerned about that, what I can say as a
:20:07. > :20:11.working journalist, to date so far it has has worked. Unlike Leveson's
:20:11. > :20:16.roe posal our press council can't impose fines. It is funded by the
:20:16. > :20:22.newspaper industry. And the newspaper industry has a minority
:20:22. > :20:27.on the Press Council. It is working because it was designed to ward
:20:27. > :20:31.ward off two threats which was the threat of a privacy law and full
:20:31. > :20:36.statutory regulation. Leveson goes further. We live as working
:20:36. > :20:40.journalist and beyond that because it is an issue of civic society, we
:20:40. > :20:45.live with the threat of full statutory regulation and a privacy
:20:45. > :20:49.law. Where I felt Leveson fell down. It failed to acknowledge the force
:20:49. > :20:52.of the criminal law. It is significant that for the kind of
:20:52. > :20:57.offences that were highlighting in Leveson we are seeing the criminal
:20:57. > :21:03.law, we are seeing prosecutions take place. The second reason why I
:21:03. > :21:06.thought it was naive with the greatest respect to Lord Justice
:21:06. > :21:11.Leveson, was in the shifting of the landscape of the media, I spent
:21:11. > :21:17.three months in America this year as part of a fellowship look
:21:17. > :21:21.looking at the future of the media in a digical age and and Leveson
:21:21. > :21:25.seems dated because the real threat to people's privacy, when you look
:21:26. > :21:31.at the mainstream press, we have strict regulation in the form of
:21:31. > :21:36.contempt of court laws, our defamation Act has been a chilling
:21:36. > :21:43.effect on our journalism... Twitter and the others blow it out of the
:21:43. > :21:49.water? They do. It is in the mainstream media. You cannot ignore
:21:49. > :21:53.the shift in media landscape where everyone is potentially a citizen
:21:53. > :21:57.journalist. Sinn Fein, Declan, support
:21:57. > :22:02.regulation by the DUP says is bizarre given that the Republican
:22:02. > :22:06.newspaper has broken every rule and many rules that had not been
:22:06. > :22:10.thought of in its history, how do you do you square that one? Well,
:22:10. > :22:20.the DUP would say that. However, of course the newspaper observes the
:22:20. > :22:25.highest standards of ethic and professional journalism... When it
:22:25. > :22:29.said Margaret Thatcher was a murderer and it named members of
:22:29. > :22:33.the security force who were ill- treating prisoners... Noel, you
:22:33. > :22:37.will remember very well when the been and the media was an integral
:22:37. > :22:40.part of our conflict and was responsible and some of the
:22:40. > :22:44.audience may not be old enough to know or remember this when Sinn
:22:44. > :22:47.Fein spokespersons were denied the right to speak for themselves, when
:22:47. > :22:52.they were brought on to the television and on to the radio.
:22:52. > :22:57.That was the Government law. That wasn't the BBC. If we want to have
:22:57. > :23:05.a discussion about the free press then I think we need to remember
:23:05. > :23:10.why Leveson sat and he was convened in inquiry because a little girl
:23:10. > :23:17.Milly Dowler was murdered and her family's grief was invaded in the
:23:17. > :23:23.most gratuitous of ways and I think Leveson has done... Leveson has
:23:23. > :23:27.done some service. He called time on the fact that he will that
:23:27. > :23:32.elements of the British press had lost the run of themselves over the
:23:32. > :23:35.last 10 to 20 years. He has pointed in the direction of achieving a
:23:35. > :23:42.balance by suggesting how regulation can be put in place,
:23:42. > :23:47.whilst at the same time ensuring that we see a free unfettered press.
:23:47. > :23:51.I would like to think that Leveson would act as a watershed, a
:23:51. > :23:56.watershed where we will see the renewal of the British press and it
:23:56. > :24:00.begins once more to shine a light where there is corruption, shine a
:24:00. > :24:04.light on injustice and to do some service to us all by ensuring we
:24:04. > :24:14.are better informed in relation to developing ideas and ensuring there
:24:14. > :24:17.
:24:17. > :24:20.is better Government. The media needs to get back to its old credo.
:24:21. > :24:25.The Leveson Inquiry should have gone into the privacy laws. And
:24:25. > :24:29.people on the phone was brought together because of that little
:24:29. > :24:34.girl tragic, yeah. People on the phones, they are growing all the
:24:34. > :24:40.time. They are invading into free space. There are people out there
:24:40. > :24:43.with scanners and they can listen into your or my phone call on the
:24:43. > :24:46.mobile phone. Leveson didn't say about that.
:24:46. > :24:51.Jeffrey Donaldson? We are not in favour of statutory regulation and
:24:51. > :24:59.something akin to the model that operates in the Republic of Ireland
:24:59. > :25:04.is a good starting point, but if it done work, we may need to look at
:25:04. > :25:08.the the statutory leg lation. -- legislation. A lot of what happened
:25:08. > :25:11.here is contrary to the law. When people say we need statutory
:25:11. > :25:15.regulation, a lot of the journalist were breaking the law and we will
:25:15. > :25:19.see some of them coming before the courts. I agree with Dearbhail,
:25:19. > :25:26.there is a big issue around social media and the things that can be
:25:26. > :25:29.said on social media, everything ranging from threats to defamatory
:25:29. > :25:34.comments and where is the regulation there? And the other
:25:34. > :25:37.issue that Leveson perhaps missed is media ownership. We talk about a
:25:37. > :25:41.free press and I am all for a free press, but how free is a press when
:25:42. > :25:51.half the press in the UK are owned by one man, one corporation, that
:25:52. > :25:57.
:25:57. > :26:07.It will take some time to get this legislation established and we need
:26:07. > :26:11.
:26:11. > :26:16.to have something in the meantime. We owe it to the families who had
:26:16. > :26:23.been damaged and maligned by a gutter press. That is what happened
:26:23. > :26:30.and it has been revealed. If it had not been revealed, it would
:26:30. > :26:37.probably would still be going on. But I am concerned that what
:26:37. > :26:44.happens in the meantime is that if we do have legislation, I want it
:26:44. > :26:49.to be there as a threat. In other words saying to the media moguls,
:26:49. > :26:54.let us see the colour of your money. That is effectively what David
:26:54. > :27:00.Cameron has said. I am not sure he would be on the same timescale as
:27:00. > :27:04.me. My timescale is we are going to regulate, we are not going to stop
:27:04. > :27:09.the regulation ball rolling. We will keep it in tandem as to what
:27:09. > :27:19.you are doing and if you default, we have something to hit you with.
:27:19. > :27:24.
:27:24. > :27:27.If we don't have the legislation, then we are in panic stations.
:27:27. > :27:37.hopefully the proposals will be ready by next week. Cameron doesn't
:27:37. > :27:42.want to make this about legislation. This was theatre today. He wants to
:27:43. > :27:48.be seen to say, this is your last chance. Get on with it all we will
:27:48. > :27:53.legislate. But if it does get to the point of legislation, all his
:27:53. > :27:57.original points will come in. The Press Council of Ireland, the
:27:57. > :28:02.reason that functions is because it has underneath it the sword of
:28:02. > :28:10.Damocles which is the prospect of invasions of privacy been made a
:28:10. > :28:17.criminal offence. There were journalists going to prison if they
:28:17. > :28:24.invade privacy. The idea you could have a law that would send you to
:28:24. > :28:34.prison for doing it, if he got it wrong, it would not be acceptable,
:28:34. > :28:35.
:28:35. > :28:42.especially in Britain. Dearbhail answer and that we have
:28:42. > :28:46.to move on. We have to be careful what we wish for. Please don't
:28:46. > :28:54.forget the good work that the press does. If you introduce legislation
:28:54. > :29:00.that prevents the kind of investigative journalism that our
:29:00. > :29:04.mast politicians expenses, etc, on those rare occasions where we do
:29:05. > :29:14.cross the constitutional line, we do so in the belief that the public
:29:15. > :29:16.
:29:16. > :29:26.interest is our shield and sword. That has to be the case. We have to
:29:26. > :29:38.
:29:39. > :29:48.move on. The next question comes from a student from Londonderry.
:29:49. > :29:51.
:29:51. > :29:59.The status of human rights, is it right in terms of the abortion
:29:59. > :30:03.laws? The question is, up our women's fundamental human rights in
:30:04. > :30:12.respect to abortion been negated. This debate has been on both sides
:30:12. > :30:19.of the border. Jeffrey, what do you think? There's a clear majority in
:30:19. > :30:24.Northern Ireland that is pro-life. It is clearly reflected. There was
:30:24. > :30:34.an opinion poll in the Belfast Telegraph last week and only one in
:30:34. > :30:34.
:30:34. > :30:41.four in Northern Ireland support pro-choice. It is not a question of
:30:41. > :30:45.politicians trampling on people's rights. They reflect the settled
:30:45. > :30:49.public will and the Northern Ireland that is pro-life. With a
:30:49. > :30:54.great lack of clarity. Experts tell us they don't know whether or not
:30:54. > :30:58.they can perform terminations or not. There is no legal clarity
:30:58. > :31:03.around the common law in Northern Ireland. It has been clarified for
:31:03. > :31:08.some time, it has been in and out of court... So why are we waiting
:31:08. > :31:12.for guidelines? The medical profession have us for guidelines
:31:12. > :31:17.in circumstances where medical abortions can take place under the
:31:17. > :31:22.law. They were challenged in court twice and they are back again and
:31:22. > :31:26.the Health Minister hopes to publish the guidelines once again.
:31:26. > :31:36.But the guidelines they change the law. The law says there are only
:31:36. > :31:37.
:31:37. > :31:42.exceptional circumstances where the life of the mother is at risk that
:31:42. > :31:47.an abortion can take place. That is the settled position, and that
:31:47. > :31:57.borders for it that in this part of the United Kingdom we do not have
:31:57. > :32:00.
:32:00. > :32:05.the 1967 abortion Act. I then got that is not here. Does clarifying
:32:05. > :32:11.the law automatically liberalise it? That is the fear, that if you
:32:11. > :32:14.gave legal effect to the existing law it would be a Trojan course.
:32:14. > :32:22.The statement by Geoffrey is a line peddled by the Irish government
:32:22. > :32:32.when it was taken to the he the paean -- taken to the European
:32:32. > :32:36.
:32:36. > :32:41.Court of Human Rights. The reality is there is synergy between the
:32:41. > :32:46.North and South on this. But the problem is that even though
:32:46. > :32:50.abortion is allowed in a limited circumstances, there is no clarity
:32:50. > :32:56.for women and doctors to find out in what circumstances it can be
:32:56. > :33:05.carried out. The great fear is I that soon suicide of a definition
:33:05. > :33:15.of a woman's welfare, there will be a liberal abortion regime. Is there
:33:15. > :33:18.
:33:18. > :33:28.a fading influence of the Church? The Church is still a pervasive
:33:28. > :33:28.
:33:28. > :33:38.influence. There are people who describe themselves as pro-life
:33:38. > :33:42.
:33:42. > :33:48.foot say they might be for a portion in the case of a rape. --
:33:48. > :33:51.in the case of rape. I do wonder if the church influence has a place in
:33:51. > :33:57.secular politics, but regardless of that, there is still a need to
:33:57. > :34:01.clarify the law and I don't believe that Jeffrey is right. Young man in
:34:01. > :34:11.the front row. How can we allow this situation to continue? We are
:34:11. > :34:14.
:34:14. > :34:21.talking about young women... Not so young. Not so young indeed. People
:34:21. > :34:27.have to get, for example, a ferry to Liverpool to have an abortion.
:34:27. > :34:32.This has to stop. The death of that poor woman in Galway should not
:34:32. > :34:39.have happened. How we can allow this to continue in a civilised
:34:39. > :34:46.society is beyond me. Sinn Fein are accused of operating a forked
:34:46. > :34:52.tongue in this with that given issues in the north and south.
:34:52. > :34:57.is a deeply sensitive issue for Iris Society as a whole. I agreed
:34:57. > :35:04.that we provide no service to the discussion by using labels or pro-
:35:04. > :35:10.life or pro-choice. We cannot generalise an approach to the issue.
:35:10. > :35:14.I know two situations are the same, nor do wiping that we can
:35:14. > :35:20.criminalise women who have felt they had no alternative other than
:35:20. > :35:27.to travel abroad for a termination. The women I know who have had to
:35:27. > :35:33.make that decision, and it is a difficult decision to to make, but
:35:33. > :35:39.did not want to be in a position. We need a second that discussion
:35:39. > :35:49.and there is a need in the south to ensure that the legislation which
:35:49. > :35:49.
:35:49. > :35:59.the Supreme Court ruling of 1992 called for is now an active to
:35:59. > :36:02.
:36:02. > :36:11.create that certainty for women and medical practitioners. Your party
:36:11. > :36:16.talks about wanting legislation in the republic... In the north, we
:36:16. > :36:22.need greater definition. We need guidelines for the medical
:36:22. > :36:26.practitioners. Dealers said to have to positions? Absolutely not. Sinn
:36:26. > :36:31.Fein is opposed to abortion and the circumstances in society that give
:36:31. > :36:36.rise to that, but we understand that when the life of a mother is
:36:36. > :36:44.jeopardised, there needs to be the option provided to medical
:36:44. > :36:49.professionals to intervene. This is a hard one. I am not a religious
:36:50. > :36:55.person, but I absolutely see that this is an issue close to many
:36:55. > :37:02.people's hearts. However, it seems to me that as soon as you describe
:37:02. > :37:06.for human rights to an unborn child, at any point in the process, you
:37:06. > :37:14.create a recipe for significant difficulties because once the
:37:14. > :37:20.foetus becomes a human life, beholden of all human rights, then
:37:20. > :37:25.it is quite hard to say you would allow abortion even to save the
:37:25. > :37:29.mother's life, to be honest. How do you choose between two human lives
:37:29. > :37:36.that have the same intrinsic value is virtually impossible. I am drawn
:37:36. > :37:43.to a couple of things. I don't think it will be popular. There is
:37:43. > :37:50.a logic to say that for human rights are a quiet at birth and not
:37:50. > :37:57.at 40 weeks, 20 weeks, or whatever. At birth, be born child has for
:37:57. > :38:01.human rights. Up to that point you have to approach these things with
:38:01. > :38:08.sensitivity. I don't know anyone who isn't pro-life and the idea
:38:08. > :38:11.that by allowing abortion, by allowing a more sympathetic
:38:11. > :38:15.abortion law you open the floodgates to a deluge of abortions
:38:16. > :38:25.that otherwise would not happen, instinctively I don't think that is
:38:26. > :38:29.
:38:29. > :38:39.right. So I it advocates that women should have the right to choose.
:38:39. > :38:48.Gentleman head with the scarf on. In the Indian culture, we don't
:38:48. > :38:54.like to have any children aborted. My question is these medical
:38:54. > :39:02.practitioners were unable to just the severity of a poor woman and
:39:02. > :39:08.they let her die. There is an inquiry, so we can't say what
:39:08. > :39:12.exactly happened. But her husband is asking for a public inquiry.
:39:12. > :39:20.There are a lot of demonstrations in India at the moment. It is a hot
:39:20. > :39:24.issue that has been swept under the carpet. What I find intolerable
:39:24. > :39:28.about the case there Gentleman raised his here we had a foreign
:39:28. > :39:35.national expecting a baby in the republic and told this is a
:39:35. > :39:41.Catholic country and the law is that an abortion must never happen
:39:41. > :39:48.here. To me, by a young woman didn't go into hospital wanting an
:39:48. > :39:57.abortion, and I'd been she was treated abominably. It has left a
:39:57. > :40:01.terrible lack of understanding in terms of, and I confess not knowing
:40:01. > :40:05.to what extent does anyone's religion allow them to play God in
:40:05. > :40:12.the way they did? And would anyone entering a hospital here in
:40:12. > :40:22.Northern Ireland be told by anyone in that hospital, a surgeon or a
:40:22. > :40:27.
:40:27. > :40:30.doctor, this is a Catholic country and abortion must not happen here.
:40:30. > :40:35.I'm a legislator, that is my job and that is what I have been
:40:35. > :40:41.elected to do. We have a lot at the moment and I am quite content with
:40:41. > :40:48.it that when we approach these guidelines, I need to know, I need
:40:48. > :40:58.to be more informed, to be honest, we need to be informed about the
:40:58. > :40:59.
:40:59. > :41:03.questions a rising over mental health. Legislators in Northern
:41:03. > :41:09.Ireland are in a difficult situation. I am a father and a
:41:09. > :41:19.grandfather... You need clarity to sum up. I pink the population is
:41:19. > :41:24.
:41:24. > :41:33.clarity. The next question comes from a solicitor. Does a border
:41:33. > :41:36.poll lead to nothing more than a political strategy? People have
:41:36. > :41:40.been saying they don't need a border poll because most Catholics
:41:40. > :41:48.think they are better off where they are right now let us see what
:41:48. > :41:52.Declan Kearney things about that Peter Robinson's comments fly in
:41:52. > :41:57.the face of election. The majority of the Republican Nationalist
:41:57. > :42:03.people are voting for parties which owe their allegiance to reunion
:42:03. > :42:08.nigh quation -- reunification. 46% of Catholics were happy with
:42:08. > :42:12.being in Northern Ireland and ds and different to voting on
:42:12. > :42:16.traditional party lines? I prefer to live in the real world and to
:42:17. > :42:26.deal with these issues in real-time and Jeffrey and others have
:42:27. > :42:28.
:42:28. > :42:31.attempted to bring forward this myth ol gee. The fact of life is
:42:31. > :42:38.that the nationalist and republican people of this part of Ireland are
:42:38. > :42:43.looking for a united Ireland. The border poll is provided for in the
:42:43. > :42:48.terms of the Good Friday agreement. Now if Peter Robinson or the DUP
:42:48. > :42:52.have ne doubt over that -- any doubt over that, then let them not
:42:52. > :42:57.fear the border poll. Let's Call the border people and let the
:42:57. > :43:00.people make their mind up instead of relying on assertions or
:43:00. > :43:08.interpretations by the DUP leadership.
:43:08. > :43:12.Jeffrey, go for it. There is nothing to fear. Declan's job is to
:43:12. > :43:19.convince Unionists that we should have a united Ireland. If last
:43:19. > :43:29.night was aur attempt to -- your attempt to we are we are swayed
:43:29. > :43:45.
:43:45. > :43:47.unionists, he have a long way to go, Declan.
:43:47. > :43:50.APPLAUSE As for, I believe that the people
:43:50. > :43:52.of Northern Ireland have a settled will about where we are right now
:43:52. > :43:55.and frankly again I come back to this Noel, do you think in the
:43:55. > :43:57.middle of the worst recession that what people need is a debate and
:43:57. > :43:59.the politicians knocking their doors talking about constitutional
:43:59. > :44:01.issues. In my constituency, the people could come to see me, rarely
:44:01. > :44:03.if ever these days raise the constitutional issue.
:44:03. > :44:06.Peter Robinson is is saying we don't need a poll because Catholics
:44:06. > :44:08.know they are better off here? have no doubt. The Belfast
:44:08. > :44:11.Agreement is clear, a border poll should be held if the Secretary of
:44:11. > :44:14.State believes there is a shift in public png. There is no evidence,
:44:14. > :44:18.bar none, that there has been any shift in in public opinion
:44:18. > :44:21.favouring a united Ireland. Now, that's what the law says and if the
:44:21. > :44:23.law says that, let's get on with the job of providing descent
:44:23. > :44:30.Government for the people of Northern Ireland. Let's prove that
:44:30. > :44:36.we have already agreed we can... Peter Robinson says he has achieved
:44:36. > :44:40.that. I remember a myth if only us
:44:40. > :44:46.Catholics had more babies that would be a solution for a united
:44:47. > :44:50.Ireland. I think it is way too soon for a a border poll, if Sinn Fein
:44:50. > :44:53.are serious about you know reaching out to other communities, there
:44:53. > :44:56.will be a time and a place for that if the population shift demands. I
:44:56. > :44:59.think the priority, we are in the early stages of a young peace
:44:59. > :45:04.process. Our priorities should be working on that, building on that
:45:04. > :45:08.and cementing it and reaching out to people to Protestants and to
:45:09. > :45:12.others in our community. Again, getting back to this issue of
:45:12. > :45:15.contrivance and this stoking in the background and looking for a
:45:15. > :45:18.political fight and an argument that will bring people in from the
:45:18. > :45:22.extremes into the mainstream. I grew up with that. I don't want
:45:22. > :45:27.that anymore. I don't want it for my family, for my friends and I
:45:27. > :45:32.think it is des picketable. -- despicable at this this point in
:45:32. > :45:37.time. APPLAUSE
:45:37. > :45:44.David McNarry? You have nearly said it all all as far as I'm concerned.
:45:44. > :45:50.We will move on, then. Steve? just becauser wearing the same tie
:45:50. > :45:55.as me. Bring it on and while we are at it, let's have a poll on Europe.
:45:55. > :45:58.Let Northern Ireland... There we go. That's the one thing we want to get
:45:59. > :46:04.out of. They are not taking Northern Ireland out of the United
:46:04. > :46:10.Kingdom, but we want to take the United Kingdom out of Europe.
:46:10. > :46:14.gentleman on the back row in the red tie. This point was raised last
:46:14. > :46:16.week, Jeffrey. You think it is black and white, it is either a
:46:16. > :46:25.poll for a united Ireland or staying in the United Kingdom.
:46:25. > :46:30.Think outside the box and and what is wrong with having a discussion
:46:30. > :46:40.on what it might be like if it was joint administration. There is no
:46:40. > :46:40.
:46:40. > :46:48.point in sweeping it under the carpet. I think, will you not
:46:48. > :46:51.engage for the people here? In the long tradition of politics in
:46:51. > :46:56.Northern Ireland, if there is a border poll, vote early!
:46:56. > :47:01.Very good, thank you. The next question which is from
:47:01. > :47:09.Rupert a financial adviser from County Down. Where are you? Over
:47:09. > :47:14.here. Corporation tax aviederam -- avoider Amazon predicted Cyber
:47:14. > :47:23.Monday as its busiest day. How will this affect our high streets?
:47:23. > :47:30.Amazon made �207 million and paid �1.8 million in tax. Google �2.5
:47:30. > :47:34.billion and �Starbucks �3 billion in the last 13 years and �8.6
:47:34. > :47:39.million paid in tax. Oh dear. Oh dear. But they are selling stuff
:47:39. > :47:42.and how will it affect our high streets, David McNarry? Well, it is
:47:42. > :47:48.affecting the high street, undoubtedly it is affecting the
:47:48. > :47:54.high street. It is affecting the high street because that's how you
:47:54. > :47:57.want to shop. That's how we want to shop. �465 million was meant to be
:47:57. > :48:00.turned over this morning in a matter of hours by people going
:48:00. > :48:05.online and placing their orders. I understand understand now that you
:48:05. > :48:15.make the arrangements for collections. What is very important
:48:15. > :48:22.is the impact that it is having here locally. In my constituency, I
:48:22. > :48:30.have got Newtownards, too many shops boarded up. I go on to Comber
:48:30. > :48:34.and too many shops shops boarded up and I go into saintfield and there
:48:34. > :48:37.is too many shops boarded up. There is the competition from the
:48:37. > :48:41.supermarkets. There is the competition as to what is value for
:48:41. > :48:46.money? What is the he local economy and how do we put it together? We
:48:46. > :48:51.are dabbling here and I'm going to criticise Sammy Wilson and I don't
:48:52. > :48:57.often do that... What a devil you are tonight! I am going to
:48:57. > :49:00.criticise him. This tie has gone to your head, Noel. I am going to
:49:01. > :49:04.criticise him for dragging his feet on corporation tax. This country
:49:04. > :49:06.needs corporation tax yesterday. Well, it is not his decision, of
:49:06. > :49:10.course. Hang on a second.
:49:10. > :49:15.We are not talking about corporation tax tonight.
:49:15. > :49:18.Let's bring in Steve... I think we should be talking... You may think
:49:18. > :49:22.that, but we are not going to because it is about the internet
:49:22. > :49:26.and the high street and not about corporation tax.
:49:26. > :49:29.But they are the ones that evaded corporation tax, Noel.
:49:29. > :49:33.If all these big companies were paying more tax it would provide
:49:33. > :49:37.more jobs in this country, would it not? Well, it would make the
:49:37. > :49:41.pressure off the public finances whether that would produce more
:49:41. > :49:45.jobs or a lower deficit. There are several things going on here,
:49:45. > :49:51.aren't there? On one hand, you have transfer pricing on a significant
:49:51. > :49:54.scale so that the profits all accumulate in the lowest tax
:49:54. > :49:59.regimes because every time you buy a Starbucks coffee, the beans are
:49:59. > :50:03.bought in Switzerland or have to be bought by the franchises and the
:50:03. > :50:11.shops at prices which mean that in effect, the profitability of the
:50:11. > :50:16.outlet is low, and the profitability of the coffee bean
:50:16. > :50:20.supplier is low and of course, companies rig it for their own ends.
:50:20. > :50:23.If companies are making significant amounts of money, in a particular
:50:23. > :50:28.territory, as good citizens, they ought to go out of their way and
:50:28. > :50:31.Starbucks are saying they will. They have to pay their dews, but it
:50:31. > :50:35.is complicated because in some cases, I heard someone say this on
:50:35. > :50:39.another TV programme, but it was a good point, you go to a cinema, you
:50:39. > :50:43.pay your money to get in, now the people who have made the film own
:50:43. > :50:50.the property, so how do you divide the take sntion well, -- takings?
:50:51. > :50:55.Well, the people who made the film albeit they made it in America or
:50:55. > :50:59.India, shouldn't get their cut. There is value in intellectual
:50:59. > :51:02.property and that doesn't always sit in the place where the the
:51:02. > :51:07.transaction is done. It is complicated. On the face of it,
:51:07. > :51:10.there has been tax avoidance on a significant scale and it would
:51:10. > :51:14.reduce the pressure. In terms of the high street, one point. What
:51:14. > :51:19.shops have got to do is what newspapers have got to do is find a
:51:19. > :51:23.way, fin ways to add value for their customers in the internet age
:51:23. > :51:26.and merely supplying the goods probably doesn't do it.
:51:26. > :51:32.The gentleman in the second row. There are two issues with this
:51:32. > :51:37.really. One is the retailers aren't playing on a level playing field.
:51:37. > :51:43.When Amazon are paying 3% VAT and everybody else is paying 20% that
:51:43. > :51:47.needs to be sorted out. And until that is sorted out, nothing happens
:51:47. > :51:50.and when that is done, then it won't be cheaper for these
:51:50. > :51:56.companies to operate from abroad and maybe they will bring their
:51:56. > :51:59.jobs to this country. The lady in front row? I wanted to say that
:51:59. > :52:02.public service ins Northern Ireland at the moment are facing
:52:02. > :52:08.unprecedented cuts. Families are struggling. They are really
:52:08. > :52:12.struggling to cope and to manage their family finances. And it seems
:52:12. > :52:15.immoral that large companies are getting away from contributing the
:52:15. > :52:18.money they should be contributing fairly in tax to then fund the
:52:18. > :52:22.public services. Jeffrey Donaldson, the high street
:52:22. > :52:26.and Amazon and the other giants? There is no doubt the high streets
:52:26. > :52:32.are suffering and Lisburn, for example, you can see the effects of
:52:32. > :52:36.that and in defence of Sammy Wilson, he is introducing an extension to
:52:36. > :52:42.the small business rate relief scheme. Small businesses don't pay
:52:42. > :52:48.corporation tax, but they pay rates and they pay high rates in places
:52:48. > :52:52.like Lisburn. This scheme will mean another 3,500 business will benefit
:52:52. > :52:54.from significant rates relief. That is the kind of change that the
:52:54. > :52:59.assembly can make in helping small business get through this recession.
:52:59. > :53:02.It is tough. We need to do something about those who are
:53:02. > :53:10.evading corporation tax. David, it is on the desk of the Prime
:53:10. > :53:14.Minister. It is away from Sammy Wilson now.
:53:14. > :53:18.Dearbhail? One of the reasons why people might not want to join or or
:53:18. > :53:23.have a united Ireland, there are fears the Republic will fall off
:53:23. > :53:29.the cliff if our corporation tax rate was changed. We have attracted
:53:30. > :53:32.some of the biggest names including Google and Amazon and that's an
:53:32. > :53:36.important part of the Ireland's economy and there are fears over
:53:36. > :53:40.losing that. In In terms of what the high street can do, there are
:53:40. > :53:43.similarities with the media and other industries. No sector in
:53:43. > :53:49.society has been untouched by the creative destruction of the
:53:49. > :53:53.internet. It revolutionised every aspect of our lives. There needs to
:53:53. > :53:58.be greater investment in local communities, but if this is the
:53:58. > :54:08.long-term change, it is something we have to adopt to rather than
:54:08. > :54:10.
:54:10. > :54:20.crib and moan about. The internet has a a devastating
:54:20. > :54:21.
:54:21. > :54:24.fact. We need to do something about jobs. The young lady in the back
:54:24. > :54:27.row? Everybody is talking about what needs to be done for the high
:54:27. > :54:31.street and fair enough, people will go for where they are getting the
:54:31. > :54:37.best deal, but bar talking about corporation tax, what is being done
:54:37. > :54:43.to attract shoppers back to the high street? Declan Kearney? This
:54:43. > :54:47.evening in Dunloy 140 workers have received notification that they
:54:47. > :54:51.have lost their jobs. That's the reality check for us all. The fact
:54:51. > :54:55.is we are dealing with rip off economics. It was the rip off
:54:55. > :55:02.economics that was pursued by the developers and the bankers and now
:55:02. > :55:07.we are we are seeing it on the part of the big companies.
:55:07. > :55:12.Those who make the most should pay the most. We need to see that type
:55:12. > :55:16.of initiative and intervention being brought into play to foster
:55:16. > :55:21.and to undepin the role of small and medium entier prices within our
:55:21. > :55:25.community and the small and local shop Holders in our high streets.
:55:25. > :55:28.We need to protect local business. We need to make sure that local
:55:28. > :55:31.business flourishes, but we need to make sure that the people who are
:55:31. > :55:41.making the most most start to pay the most as well.
:55:41. > :55:44.
:55:44. > :55:47.The gentleman here in the tie? APPLAUSE
:55:47. > :55:51.I would like to say Britain, the the Treasury has lifted �30 billion
:55:51. > :55:54.in fuel tax. There is a lot of garages across Northern Ireland are
:55:54. > :55:59.forming up and doing away with man and woman power. How is that going
:55:59. > :56:04.to be addressed? I don't have time. Thank you, sir.
:56:04. > :56:14.We must move on. The last question comes from a marketing consultant
:56:14. > :56:20.
:56:20. > :56:26.Will any of the panel be following the Pope on Twitter? The Pope's
:56:26. > :56:34.Newt site is up and running. He will not beat tweeting and to all
:56:34. > :56:43.12th December. He already has a hundreds of thousands of followers.
:56:43. > :56:48.Dearbhail, would you be a follower? The family. I think I was among the
:56:48. > :56:58.first followers. It is intriguing, but it shows you the extent that
:56:58. > :57:03.
:57:03. > :57:08.Vatican and others -- that the Vatican and others are going to in
:57:08. > :57:13.terms of social medium. I haven't been following the Pope up until
:57:13. > :57:17.now and it is highly unlikely I would take up the offer. I would be
:57:17. > :57:23.interested to see what trouble he get into because it does appear to
:57:23. > :57:33.me, you go on this Twitter and someone catches you out somewhere
:57:33. > :57:39.
:57:39. > :57:47.along the line. What do you think, Geoffrey. -- Jeffrey? I suspect I
:57:47. > :57:53.am with David on this. We follow Chelsea, by the way. I am more
:57:53. > :58:01.interested in knowing who the next Chelsea manager will be. Maybe
:58:02. > :58:07.following the Pope will give the divine intervention! Will he be it
:58:07. > :58:17.a high-minded or will it be, it's Friday, a fish finger sandwiches
:58:17. > :58:22.
:58:22. > :58:29.again? Declan? I think I will tweet over the Ulster championships.