:00:17. > :00:23.causing controversy in Westminster. Yearly controversy is much the same.
:00:23. > :00:25.For some it is a civil rights denied. We are completely
:00:25. > :00:31.second-class but pay taxes like everyone else.
:00:31. > :00:34.Gay couples want the right to marry and be a riot -- allowed to adopt.
:00:35. > :00:39.What would you teach your children about sexuality?
:00:39. > :00:45.I would teach them very simply add a young age that some people like boys
:00:45. > :00:47.and some like girls. Some churches accept gay marriage. We support the
:00:47. > :00:52.full emancipation of same-sex couples.
:00:52. > :00:59.There will be no shame in our home and name-macro will not have to deal
:00:59. > :01:03.with shame and embarrassment. But others stand opposed.
:01:03. > :01:08.It is not a matter of doubt, it is pure human reason. Just because some
:01:08. > :01:12.people claim something about equality, does not mean it is.
:01:12. > :01:15.We investigate if a new fault line is opening up in politics and
:01:15. > :01:19.society here. There is a need for politicians to
:01:19. > :01:24.leave the religious believes at home. Who does our loyalist lesbian
:01:24. > :01:34.vote for? Is this a question? most important thing is same-sex
:01:34. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :01:50.marriage to them, I suspect the DUP Across the UK, moves to allow
:01:50. > :01:55.same-sex marriage have proved highly controversial. Tonight, we meet gay
:01:55. > :02:00.couples here living their lives through the debate. Gay
:02:00. > :02:10.grandfathers. A couple setting up home together. A
:02:10. > :02:12.
:02:12. > :02:22.new mother. And a couple who want a Meet Kerry and Julianne. They are
:02:22. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:29.moving in together and doing up Hello. How are you? Thanks for
:02:29. > :02:33.having us. You are doing powerful work here. We
:02:33. > :02:38.have been in two weeks, the kitchen walls have to be finished and the
:02:38. > :02:44.gas is going in this week, and that's us. When did you realise
:02:44. > :02:49.growing up you were attracted to women and girls your age? It was
:02:49. > :02:51.really gradual. Even at 11 at the age of getting boyfriends, I had no
:02:51. > :02:57.interest. What about you, when did you come
:02:57. > :03:02.out? Kind of the same as Kerry, I came to grips with it at 14.
:03:02. > :03:06.parents did not take it as well as I would have liked, but... What
:03:07. > :03:12.happened? My mum was supportive, I think it was me that could not cope
:03:12. > :03:18.with it, I thought I was not normal. Shall we see upstairs? Yes, let's
:03:18. > :03:23.go. Mind your head on this. This is Kerry's shrine to her shoes.
:03:23. > :03:30.I have a lot of space for my shoes. I wanted to build wardrobes in the
:03:30. > :03:38.front room but was not allowed. You have a whole box of shoes here. And
:03:38. > :03:41.I have a suitcase of summer shoes. What size shoe are you? I am to?
:03:41. > :03:46.you, Julianne? I'm a size six, unfortunately.
:03:46. > :03:55.This is these secret of a relationship, to winning, not enough
:03:55. > :03:59.Undercurrent read legislation, a marriage can only be between a man
:03:59. > :04:06.and women conducted through a religious or civil ceremony. --
:04:06. > :04:09.under legislation. Since 2005, lesbian and gay couples have been
:04:09. > :04:17.able to enter into a civil partnership. There are two main
:04:17. > :04:24.distinctions. A civil partnership can only be between the same-sex
:04:24. > :04:28.couple and conducted only through a civil ceremony.
:04:28. > :04:34.A civil partnership confreres most of the greats of our marriage, but
:04:34. > :04:39.many gay couples don't think it is enough. Civil partnership, even
:04:39. > :04:45.though it is not on your agenda right now, it might be down the
:04:45. > :04:50.line. If you wanted to get married that option is not there. How do you
:04:50. > :04:55.feel about that? Personally, I would not want a religious ceremony, but I
:04:55. > :05:00.would like to have a civil marriage. That will not be open to us and that
:05:00. > :05:04.infuriates us. People who are sinners in the eyes of the Bible can
:05:04. > :05:14.get their marriage accepted in the eyes of God, yet because we are
:05:14. > :05:15.
:05:15. > :05:20.Northern Ireland Ireland was the first place in the UK to hold
:05:20. > :05:26.same-sex civil partnerships. But it had been the last to decriminalise
:05:26. > :05:34.homosexuality. On the day the most recent census was carried out in
:05:34. > :05:38.2011 there were 766 people living in civil partnership households here.
:05:38. > :05:42.John O'Doherty is among a new generation of campaigners. He is
:05:42. > :05:47.director of the Rainbow Project, a gay rights organisation. He has done
:05:47. > :05:53.living with his partner, shame, for three years. For them a civil
:05:53. > :05:58.partnership would not be sufficient. -- his partner, Shane. What is your
:05:58. > :06:02.definition of marriage? I always took it like my mum and dad
:06:02. > :06:07.being married, they loved each other and brought up a family and are
:06:07. > :06:12.still going strong. That is what it meant to me. I would like to think
:06:12. > :06:19.me and John are on the track to be like that, too. Would you like to
:06:19. > :06:24.get married at some stage? Yes, I would. I do! Is a civil partnership
:06:24. > :06:28.not enough? It is not the same. People don't
:06:28. > :06:36.grow up and say I want to have a civil partners someday, you want to
:06:36. > :06:40.be married. It is a commitment.It is, but it is not seen as equal.
:06:40. > :06:45.Just last month, Sinn Fein urged MLAs to legalise same-sex marriage.
:06:45. > :06:49.People do not want to see citizens discriminated against. They are
:06:49. > :06:54.changing because our lesbian, gay and transgender communities have
:06:54. > :07:00.said enough is enough. The move to legalise same-sex marriage mobilised
:07:00. > :07:05.churches to intervene. We believe the current legal definition of
:07:05. > :07:11.marriage, as between one man and one women, with his fist -- its historic
:07:11. > :07:16.and Biblical basis, is a fundamental building block of society.
:07:16. > :07:23.The Presbyterian Church and the Catholic Church both petitioned all
:07:23. > :07:27.MLAs to oppose the motion. We say that homosexual acts are
:07:27. > :07:33.inconsistent with the Christian life, they are inconsistent with
:07:33. > :07:36.natural law and the intention and purpose of our sexual capacity.
:07:36. > :07:40.Proponents of gay marriage have framed much of the debate as an
:07:40. > :07:46.issue of equality, but those are against argues same-sex marriage can
:07:46. > :07:50.never be equal to marriage between a man and a woman. You cannot say
:07:50. > :07:55.these two things are the same. While it is a very powerful and emotive
:07:55. > :08:00.word come equality, and important, it does not apply. With respect, the
:08:00. > :08:05.word does not apply in this case because it does not suit your
:08:05. > :08:09.dogma. It is not a matter of dogma, it is pure human reason. Just
:08:09. > :08:14.because people claim something is about equality it does not mean it
:08:14. > :08:19.is. We don't argue this simply as a matter of religion. Irrespective of
:08:19. > :08:24.religion, marriage has always been recognised by society as a
:08:24. > :08:29.fundamental institution on which the state and society is based. When one
:08:29. > :08:34.looks at the continuum and the social justice and God 's love...
:08:34. > :08:40.But gay marriage is not opposed by all churches here. Chris Hudson is a
:08:40. > :08:48.Unitarian minister of all souls Church in Belfast. It is obvious we
:08:48. > :08:52.support refill emancipation of same-sex couples in society. -- we
:08:52. > :08:56.support the full emancipation. By law he is unable to marry a gay
:08:56. > :08:59.couple but offers blessings to those who have entered a civil
:08:59. > :09:06.partnership. Today he is holding a naming ceremony for a lesbian
:09:06. > :09:11.couple's baby. We give to you the name Maya Tabakin.
:09:11. > :09:17.Are you preaching from the text of the Bible? I believe that I am.
:09:17. > :09:20.God's love is not exclusive and include all people in all forms.
:09:20. > :09:23.it become a name honoured and respected for wisdom and good
:09:23. > :09:27.deeds. We have to remember the apostles and
:09:27. > :09:30.disciples and the evangelists, they were talking about God 's love
:09:30. > :09:36.within the context of the culture of the new.
:09:36. > :09:38.We are not of their culture. If more people agreed with your
:09:38. > :09:44.interpretation of the Scripture, wouldn't there be crowds of people
:09:44. > :09:54.coming here? You cannot judge people's faith by whether they
:09:54. > :09:56.
:09:56. > :09:59.attend church. I would love to see Maya's lesbian parents used a sperm
:10:00. > :10:07.donation through a private clinic in Europe. Having a child was something
:10:07. > :10:13.Paula, a Michael's birthing mother, had always wanted. Paula also wanted
:10:13. > :10:17.a religious ceremony to celebrate her daughter's birth. I am
:10:17. > :10:22.personally deeply religious and wanted a blessing done with God. It
:10:22. > :10:30.means there will be no shame in our home, and Maya will not have to deal
:10:30. > :10:37.with shame and embarrassment about to her parents are. However, her
:10:37. > :10:41.partner chose to remain anonymous. There is the problem by partner, who
:10:41. > :10:48.can't be identified. This is due to having an elderly family and we
:10:48. > :10:55.don't want to cause any disruption there. I am going to run out of the
:10:55. > :11:00.door with her, Paula! Isn't she gorgeous? Do you, the congregation,
:11:00. > :11:07.promised to commit yourselves to support this family and Maya?
:11:07. > :11:11.We do. A recent survey of British attitudes on gay marriage suggest
:11:11. > :11:16.people of faith are just as likely to support same-sex marriage as
:11:16. > :11:22.opposed it. The survey found those who identified with a religion were
:11:22. > :11:32.evenly split on allowing same-sex couples to marry. 43% were for it,
:11:32. > :11:35.
:11:35. > :11:41.Matters of faith and public policy can collide. David Ford is a
:11:41. > :11:48.practising Presbyterian. He supports same-sex civil marriage, a
:11:48. > :11:52.view that is at odds with his own church. David Ford chose to step
:11:52. > :12:00.aside from active duty is in his church after a number of the
:12:00. > :12:04.congregation expressed unease at his stance. What I have to do as a
:12:04. > :12:08.legislator and as a minister is initialled that I provide
:12:08. > :12:15.appropriate services for everybody in this society, many of whom do
:12:15. > :12:20.not share my beliefs. You have the same religious belief, but you want
:12:20. > :12:25.marriage equality. Our I believe in the separation of church and state
:12:25. > :12:30.and we need to recognise diversity, recognise the quality obligations
:12:30. > :12:37.of the state are to provide services on an equal basis. The
:12:37. > :12:42.state must recognise the right so faith groups. If a politician
:12:42. > :12:46.belongs to upper lip -- particular faith community, it has a right to
:12:46. > :12:55.assist the politician in understanding the teaching of that
:12:55. > :13:01.church. As if you can extract religion from who people are, that
:13:01. > :13:07.is a nonsense. His Assembly rejected the motion by Sinn Fein to
:13:07. > :13:15.legalise same-sex marriage -- that the Assembly. Those who voted
:13:15. > :13:20.against included unionist some members of the Alliance Party. The
:13:21. > :13:25.DUP tabled a Petition of Concern that ensures that a motion will
:13:25. > :13:30.only be approved if the majority of nationalists and unionists bracket.
:13:30. > :13:35.So some people seem to think if you do not fall into line with their
:13:35. > :13:40.line of thinking you are intolerant. We should be more respectful off
:13:40. > :13:49.people who have sincerely held views on things. We should not mock
:13:49. > :13:54.them. Who is mocking them?I am not getting into that. Why would you
:13:55. > :14:00.say that? I have heard people describe those who oppose same-sex
:14:00. > :14:09.marriage as bigots. They are not, they are people who care about the
:14:09. > :14:13.society they live in. They support marriage. For this couple, the
:14:13. > :14:17.politics of the debate has posed a particular problem. They are
:14:17. > :14:25.lesbian loyalists, which causes them a dilemma when it comes to
:14:25. > :14:35.decide who to vote for. What about the DUP? They are not pushing for
:14:35. > :14:36.
:14:36. > :14:43.equal rights. One certain things coming yes. We are 30 years behind
:14:43. > :14:53.the rest of the UK. Who do you vote for? This is the question. At the
:14:53. > :14:56.
:14:56. > :15:01.moment, you cannot be gay and a loyalist. It depends what issue is
:15:01. > :15:07.most important in their lives. I have yet to meet anybody who votes
:15:07. > :15:15.on a single issue. At analysts say the single issue has revealed signs
:15:15. > :15:20.of a new political religious fault line. His it is an issue that has
:15:20. > :15:25.crossed religious divides. It is perhaps making for unusual
:15:25. > :15:29.alliances. It is perhaps giving people a glimpse of a different
:15:29. > :15:35.type of politics that does not automatically fall in to Protestant
:15:35. > :15:41.and Catholic boxes. France became the 9th country in Europe to
:15:41. > :15:46.legalise gay marriage. Closer to home this week, MPs debated whether
:15:47. > :15:52.to legalise it in England and Wales. It is also on the radar in Scotland
:15:52. > :15:57.and the Republic. The agenda of the Government in the south, Scotland,
:15:57. > :16:01.Wales and England. Of course it should be on the agenda. Not before
:16:01. > :16:08.time that legislation should be brought in. The North will be left
:16:08. > :16:14.behind. The current stand against it may be a case of history
:16:14. > :16:18.repeating itself. You will legislate perversion and immorality.
:16:18. > :16:22.To spite opposition from unionist politicians in the Eighties, the
:16:22. > :16:26.European Court of Human Rights forced Westminster to decriminalise
:16:26. > :16:31.homosexuality head. Should gay marriage been legalised in the rest
:16:31. > :16:37.of the UK and not here, a legal challenge by it for Stormont to
:16:37. > :16:41.bring the law into line with Britain. We have same-sex couples
:16:41. > :16:50.knocking at our door saying they want to take a case should this
:16:50. > :16:56.transpired. A court challenge is inevitable. They court ruling might
:16:56. > :17:01.force the hands of politicians. Assembly will be dragged to
:17:01. > :17:05.legislate, what it should have been doing in the first place. Marriage
:17:05. > :17:09.equality is at the top of the gay rights campaign in the UK, but not
:17:09. > :17:13.every gay couple wants to be married. Vincent and his partner
:17:13. > :17:19.are happy with their civil partnership. They have been
:17:19. > :17:24.together 12 years. We have no intention to upgrade to a marriage.
:17:24. > :17:29.It quality is important. Our relationship should not be seen
:17:30. > :17:35.different from everybody else. Before Vincent came out, he was
:17:35. > :17:41.married with a son. Together Vincent and his partner David
:17:41. > :17:46.helped to raise him. And his wife recently gave birth to a baby boy,
:17:46. > :17:53.the first grandchild in the family. What are you looking forward to
:17:53. > :17:59.about being a grandfather? When he has started to walk, and he is
:17:59. > :18:06.walking down the street, you go to the park. It is new to me. I
:18:06. > :18:11.changed my first nappy last week. It is fantastic. I love it. It is
:18:11. > :18:16.an opportunity I thought I would not have. Some people would look at
:18:16. > :18:22.you with your grandchild and think there is something wrong with your
:18:22. > :18:27.having a grandchild. My parents were not gay. They were
:18:27. > :18:33.heterosexual. They had two children and one of those is gay and one of
:18:33. > :18:38.those is straight. I have raised a child who is heterosexual. He is
:18:38. > :18:42.wonderful. The issue of gay adoption runs parallel to the
:18:42. > :18:49.campaign for same-sex marriage. A single person, gay or heterosexual,
:18:49. > :18:55.can apply to adopt. Cohabiting couples, irrespective of their
:18:55. > :19:01.sexuality, are ruled out. They heterosexual couple could marry and
:19:01. > :19:10.then applied to adopt. Gay couples do not have the option. They can
:19:10. > :19:15.foster. John and Shane applied. When did you both have a serious
:19:15. > :19:25.chat about having children? John said he had thought about fostering.
:19:25. > :19:27.
:19:27. > :19:35.I started to look into it. How did your families take it? They were
:19:35. > :19:39.great. They were supportive. My sisters and my parents encouraged.
:19:39. > :19:42.Shane said it never crossed his mind that he would not have the
:19:42. > :19:48.option to have children. Did you think it would be rolled out for
:19:48. > :19:53.you? There was no doubt in my mind I would have children. I would have
:19:53. > :19:59.expected it this time in my life I would have had children. I find it
:19:59. > :20:05.hard, that people who do not know me and have no idea about me, my
:20:05. > :20:15.family, my upbringing, decide I am not suitable to be a parent. It
:20:15. > :20:16.
:20:16. > :20:18.baffles. What about you? Do you get upset? Sometimes. We have a great
:20:18. > :20:25.house, a great relationship. We hope to bring other people to enjoy
:20:25. > :20:29.it, as well. Northern Ireland is the only part in the UK where
:20:29. > :20:33.unmarried couples are banned from applying to adopt. The Human Rights
:20:33. > :20:40.Commission challenge the law and the High Court ruled that this ban
:20:40. > :20:47.on gay and unmarried couples adopting is unlawful. The ruling is
:20:47. > :20:52.being appealed by the DUP minister. I will act in the interests of the
:20:52. > :21:01.child. It is not a human right to adopt. People need to get back here.
:21:01. > :21:06.We must ensure that his human rights of the child are considered.
:21:06. > :21:11.People can get on hobby-horses but they do not provide solutions.
:21:11. > :21:19.Child welfare is paramount. We have to do everything to protect our
:21:19. > :21:24.children. Where I part company with some of the statements by the
:21:24. > :21:26.minister is that I believe some of his statements in relation to be
:21:26. > :21:32.gay and lesbian community are discriminatory. That is not good
:21:32. > :21:36.enough. The DUP said the Health Minister's decisions are taken
:21:36. > :21:42.objectively. His department said he is committed to a reform of
:21:42. > :21:47.adoption law. As a point of principle, do you think that gay
:21:47. > :21:53.couples should be allowed to adopt? They are allowed to foster. Let's
:21:53. > :21:59.look at what the minister comes forward in his proposals. What I
:21:59. > :22:04.think is we should focus less on who is adopting and focused on who
:22:04. > :22:09.is being adopted. A an equality commissions survey suggests
:22:09. > :22:15.negative attitudes towards gay people are does -- are decreasing.
:22:15. > :22:19.Nevertheless, 27% said they would mind having a gay person as a
:22:19. > :22:24.neighbour. When asked if they would be unhappy if they close relatives
:22:24. > :22:30.were to form a relationship with a gay person, the figure almost
:22:30. > :22:40.doubled. 42% said they would be unhappy. I tested opinion in
:22:40. > :22:49.Belfast. Should gay people be allowed to marry? Definitely.
:22:49. > :22:57.disagree. Definitely not a. It says so in the Bible. People are perhaps
:22:57. > :23:00.living in the olden days. people should have equal rights.
:23:00. > :23:04.Family and what is best for children are flashpoints in the
:23:04. > :23:10.debate. For the generation who have grown up in same-sex households,
:23:10. > :23:14.they want to contribute. Conor Pendergrast was raised by lesbian
:23:14. > :23:20.parents and has become an advocate for same-sex parenting and wants to
:23:20. > :23:25.change what he sees as prejudice to families like his own. I am Conor
:23:25. > :23:29.Pendergrast. I would like to talk to you about my family. There is me,
:23:29. > :23:35.my brother and my parents, Anne and Bernadette. I do not feel different
:23:35. > :23:39.because of my family. My friends have different types of families.
:23:39. > :23:46.What they have in common is their parents' love them and they love
:23:46. > :23:49.them back. That is important. is there an element of sexism? Some
:23:50. > :23:53.people are comfortable with the idea of children being raised by
:23:53. > :24:01.two mothers but not comfortable with them being raised by two
:24:01. > :24:05.fathers. I think there is a latent homophobia. People would expect two
:24:05. > :24:11.mothers to raise children perfectly well. There is the idea that men
:24:11. > :24:16.are not the caring, loving parents. Of opponents of same-sex marriages
:24:16. > :24:21.say society is best served by keeping a marriage between a man
:24:21. > :24:27.and woman. The it comes back to the idea of what do you make normal and
:24:27. > :24:31.what is the gold standard for the bringing up of children? The best
:24:31. > :24:38.place for a child to be brought up is in a marriage between his mother
:24:38. > :24:44.and father. Is less than a gold standard second best? I am simply
:24:44. > :24:48.saying it is what you make normal his society. The situation that
:24:48. > :24:55.society has always respected as special is that between a woman
:24:55. > :25:01.ants -- a woman and a man as mother and father in a marriage. Overall,
:25:01. > :25:07.research into the effects on a child of same-sex parenting is not
:25:07. > :25:13.conclusive. Studies are run going. A clinical psychologist believes
:25:13. > :25:17.that children thrive in stable, loving families. What is best for
:25:17. > :25:23.children is to have to compatible parents, irrespective of their
:25:23. > :25:29.gender and sexual identity. Children of same-sex parents are
:25:29. > :25:33.likely to be as successful as others at school. They are
:25:33. > :25:38.emotionally well-adjusted. Families have many permutations in Northern
:25:38. > :25:48.Ireland now. The if you want a family, raising children and
:25:48. > :25:53.passing on, and also your heritage, that is achievable. Having a family
:25:53. > :25:58.matters to these two. There reality is the majority grow up with the
:25:58. > :26:07.human instinct to want to become parents. Just because you happen to
:26:07. > :26:16.be gay does not mean that goes away. You may never be a father. I cannot
:26:16. > :26:24.imagine it, really. It is not just about being a father, it is about
:26:24. > :26:31.having a family. Having my family extended. Having that experience of
:26:31. > :26:35.being a parent that my parents had bid the person I love. I cannot
:26:35. > :26:39.imagine it. All the so he does not want a gay marriage himself,
:26:39. > :26:44.Vincent sees the momentum behind the campaign as irreversible.
:26:44. > :26:49.People will say how did the church, politicians get on the wrong side
:26:49. > :26:55.of this? The generation of the future that Ethan will be part of
:26:55. > :26:58.will look back and wonder what the fuss was about. That is my hope.
:26:58. > :27:05.Those on the other side of the debate believe their values are
:27:05. > :27:14.being attacked. Does secularism have the right to dominate? No. We
:27:14. > :27:19.need genuine diversity. The new phobia is religion. That is not of
:27:19. > :27:25.an equal society. The judge still minister says gay marriage is the
:27:25. > :27:30.touchstone for conflicting cultural values. We probably have a culture
:27:30. > :27:35.war in a number of areas. The issue about same-sex relationships is a
:27:35. > :27:40.large part. There is significant social change happening. This
:27:40. > :27:46.society is becoming to verse. For some people it is difficult to
:27:46. > :27:52.recognise that -- becoming diverse. As it stands, same-sex couples in
:27:52. > :27:57.Northern Ireland cannot marry and are banned from planning to adopt.
:27:57. > :28:03.If I said you you could wake up tomorrow morning and Mari Shane, or
:28:03. > :28:12.you could legally adopt as a gay couple, what would you choose?
:28:12. > :28:16.have to decide? How would you feel if you were told that? If equality
:28:17. > :28:26.is not brought in here and it is in the rest of the UK, would you stay
:28:26. > :28:31.here? Yes, I would. It is really tough. You cannot marry me if you
:28:31. > :28:36.are moving. A nation to legalise gay marriages are unlikely to come
:28:36. > :28:42.before the Assembly again for at least six months. It is not