:00:32. > :00:40.Hello and welcome to an hour of robust topical discussion. The talks
:00:41. > :00:47.are approaching their deadline. One of the issues that may come up with
:00:48. > :00:56.our panel is the flag. We are joined by Rita Duffy, an artist full stop
:00:57. > :01:11.Naomi Long, an MP from the Alliance Party. Billy Hutchinson. Sinn Fein
:01:12. > :01:17.education Minister John O'Dowd. And the DUP enterprise Minister Arlene
:01:18. > :01:19.education Minister John O'Dowd. And Foster. Ladies and gentlemen, that
:01:20. > :01:32.is the panel. You have your part to play at home
:01:33. > :01:34.full stop let us know what you think about the talking points of the day.
:01:35. > :02:07.Text your comments. Let us go right away to our first
:02:08. > :02:19.question. With Judge Smithwick 's recent rejection, how can anyone
:02:20. > :02:28.have any confidence in the process? It said there was collusion in the
:02:29. > :02:36.process and rejected evidence from former IRA members. Naomi Long. But
:02:37. > :02:40.it highlights is that there are two grieving families dealing with the
:02:41. > :02:46.fallout of what was announced today. That is something we need to be
:02:47. > :02:50.conscious of. They are ordinary people who have had their lives
:02:51. > :02:55.changed. We need to be sensitive to that. In terms of how we deal with
:02:56. > :03:01.this as a process going forward, we have a ready said that something
:03:02. > :03:09.along the lines of an amnesty is not something that could deliver. We
:03:10. > :03:13.have had a measure of truth today and I think that shows we need to
:03:14. > :03:16.continue to explore our past and try to deal with these issues and
:03:17. > :03:19.confront the truth was up to deal with these issues and confront the
:03:20. > :03:22.truth was out what it does show is that we have to have a process in
:03:23. > :03:26.which those who are acting in a paramilitary capacity are also held
:03:27. > :03:30.accountable for their actions. If we end up with a process which simply
:03:31. > :03:35.looks at state involvement in whether that is the Irish or British
:03:36. > :03:40.state, we would get a narrative which is not full and reflective of
:03:41. > :03:43.the entire picture. That is where confidence needs to be built in
:03:44. > :03:48.terms of how willing people will be to cooperate and how we will make it
:03:49. > :03:54.work. For some victims it would be about justice. It should not be
:03:55. > :03:57.ruled out. Others may want a process that offers the truth but there
:03:58. > :04:02.needs to be confidence built by those who will be able to provide
:04:03. > :04:08.that trust that they are willing to do so. We hear from some that a
:04:09. > :04:13.truth commission would be the arena where they would tell what happened.
:04:14. > :04:20.Here are three former members of the IRA speaking to a tribunal and the
:04:21. > :04:26.judge said I do not believe you. It is a 500 page report. I think the
:04:27. > :04:39.report deserves to be studied in detail. He discounted the evidence.
:04:40. > :04:45.The tribunal, there was contested evidence given from the former are
:04:46. > :04:49.The tribunal, there was contested you see, the Garda and from sources
:04:50. > :04:57.who were informers and therefore and reliable court -- characters in the
:04:58. > :05:03.first place. People come forward and give evidence and then the report is
:05:04. > :05:10.delivered in an enquiry. This came out of the negotiations in 2001. The
:05:11. > :05:17.British and Irish governments agreed to several enquiries. The only party
:05:18. > :05:26.to those negotiations have been the British government. Let us talk
:05:27. > :05:32.about Smithwick. What influence whether this decision have an any
:05:33. > :05:44.future truth commission? We should not dismiss truth commission. The
:05:45. > :05:46.Smithwick style enquiry will not be the enquiry, we are talking about an
:05:47. > :05:53.international style truth committee. -- commission. Might a
:05:54. > :05:58.say we told the truth to the Smithwick tribunal and they said
:05:59. > :06:07.they do not believe that. What is the point going forward quest Mike?
:06:08. > :06:15.The Smithwick tribunal was a formal process in the current phase. If we
:06:16. > :06:23.are to resolve, we have to deal with it in a competency of way. Arlene
:06:24. > :06:24.Foster, this was described as the death knell for any truth
:06:25. > :06:41.commission? death knell for any truth
:06:42. > :06:47.want a Smithwick tribunal type. How can you have a truth commission
:06:48. > :06:51.where part of the paramilitaries are going to come forward and tell their
:06:52. > :06:54.so-called truth which does not bear any resembles to what actually
:06:55. > :07:00.happened? That has always been a concern of my party. Can I also say
:07:01. > :07:09.that I welcomed the findings in this tribunal. This will be a difficult
:07:10. > :07:13.day for the families and we should always remember the victims and they
:07:14. > :07:21.should be centred in all that we say in these programmes. As someone who
:07:22. > :07:26.grew up on the border with the Irish Republic, I knew there was collusion
:07:27. > :07:33.going on and I brought a group of victims don't to meet the Ibis Prime
:07:34. > :07:42.Minister recently that I Prime Minister recently. This should be a
:07:43. > :07:52.catalyst for the Irish government to acknowledge and I welcome the
:07:53. > :08:03.apology. We waited to hear what the Irish Prime Minister will say.
:08:04. > :08:06.Omissions were made at that particular point in time in relation
:08:07. > :08:12.to the death squads that roamed around in the border areas at that
:08:13. > :08:21.point in time. There are a number of issues here. Can we have truth and
:08:22. > :08:30.justice at the same time? I am not sure. In many ways, we need to get
:08:31. > :08:34.all those people who were involved in the conflict to take some sort of
:08:35. > :08:38.corporate responsibility will stop when you bring it down to
:08:39. > :08:50.individuals, they were not come forward because of prosecutions. We
:08:51. > :09:02.also saw prosecutions in Nuremberg because of such actions. We need to
:09:03. > :09:07.make sure victims are listened to. We need to mature we can move on and
:09:08. > :09:20.make sure victims are listened to. read need to be able to move on.
:09:21. > :09:27.Arlene made the point. I know the Irish government has been involved
:09:28. > :09:34.with the IRA. Some of that has already come out. We need to be very
:09:35. > :09:40.careful that this process is about everybody and not just about the
:09:41. > :09:43.British government. This is about all of those who took part in the
:09:44. > :09:52.conflict. We need to make sure this happens. Heretic to pick up an
:09:53. > :09:58.8-point made about the idea of victims of IRA violence and
:09:59. > :10:02.paramilitary violence being as important as victims of state
:10:03. > :10:06.collusion. It is no hierarchy of victims. It is especially important
:10:07. > :10:12.that you need to pick up an allegations of state collusion.
:10:13. > :10:18.States are seen as legitimate entities. If states are involved and
:10:19. > :10:29.that raises serious questions about the legitimacy of any state in the
:10:30. > :10:34.Western world. I think the issue of collusion whether it is state
:10:35. > :10:39.violence or paramilitary violence, I also was aware that there were death
:10:40. > :10:45.squads roaming around the border area. I had a cousin killed in a
:10:46. > :10:51.telephone box. He was 18 years of age and went to phone his mother. He
:10:52. > :10:54.lost his life. The press at the time but
:10:55. > :10:58.lost his life. The press at the time coming up from the south, perhaps
:10:59. > :11:07.with a bomb that had gone off and fortunately. It turned out it was a
:11:08. > :11:12.death squad from the North. I think it is sufficient to say we have had
:11:13. > :11:20.a war and it is time we moved on and built a future.
:11:21. > :11:26.Are you concerned that this finding of the tribunal that the higher rate
:11:27. > :11:37.evidence was not reliable will have an effect on any future forum? I
:11:38. > :11:39.hold with the idea of proper future of reconciliation, but there is
:11:40. > :11:44.legislation that will prevent that from happening. The pattern you can
:11:45. > :11:49.case, my sister is a lawyer, and there has been a lot of shifting
:11:50. > :11:57.around, so I do not know how much of this we can afford? We only have a
:11:58. > :12:01.short life. The important thing about this report, I accept it has
:12:02. > :12:05.only come out and people need to go through it, but one of these stark
:12:06. > :12:12.things was not just about the incident, the terrible deaths of
:12:13. > :12:16.these two people, it was a culture of collusion that is mythic talks
:12:17. > :12:20.about. It is not just one or two bad apples, it is a culture of
:12:21. > :12:24.collusion. That is something that the Irish government needs to make a
:12:25. > :12:32.statement on and needs to recognise what went on in the 1970s, 1980s and
:12:33. > :12:37.1990s. On the issue of collusion, William Fraser asked if the
:12:38. > :12:45.English-speaking voice in the Kingsmill murders was involved in
:12:46. > :12:48.it, what is your opinion on that? We need to try to keep it to keep its
:12:49. > :12:58.two these mythic issue, what the question was about. -- qubits to
:12:59. > :13:02.this mythic issue. This lady was able to give an account about what
:13:03. > :13:10.happened to her family, and this man is not allowed to ask the question?
:13:11. > :13:16.We have limited time, you must understand, we need to keep to the
:13:17. > :13:22.original question. Just as for the victims is very important, I had two
:13:23. > :13:27.cousins that were murdered in 1984, but the reconciliation process is to
:13:28. > :13:30.allow closure for the families and for the victims, and you can get
:13:31. > :13:39.this to the truth and reconciliation process. Let's go back to Leanne.
:13:40. > :13:43.Absolutely, my question was answered, I agree with what was
:13:44. > :13:50.said, if the families and victims get justice, that is what needs to
:13:51. > :13:56.be done. Let's go to the next question from a civil engineer from
:13:57. > :13:59.County Antrim. Why were all of the party is so quick to dismiss the
:14:00. > :14:07.comments from John Larkin, the attorney general, about drawing a
:14:08. > :14:12.line under the past? Yes, he got some flack about putting an end to
:14:13. > :14:15.prosecutions and enquiries on issues before the Good Friday agreement.
:14:16. > :14:20.One or two people supported him, but in general, was rounded upon by most
:14:21. > :14:28.people. That is find out from Arlene, what do you think? John is
:14:29. > :14:32.entitled to hold those opinions and to express those opinions, but he
:14:33. > :14:37.needs to know that when he expresses these opinions, he has an impact on
:14:38. > :14:41.the politicians but also a huge impact on all of the victims across
:14:42. > :14:49.Northern Ireland that were in packed it by the troubles. He should have
:14:50. > :14:55.looked at this. -- that were in at it by the troubles. I do not think
:14:56. > :14:58.he thought about that. When you look at the fact that the Proctor family
:14:59. > :15:05.finally got justice last week in relation to the death of their loved
:15:06. > :15:09.one, John Proctor, murdered renders the front coming out from seeing his
:15:10. > :15:13.little baby. When we see that my party colleague, Sammy Brasch, he
:15:14. > :15:15.got justice from when he was attacked in County Tyrone, and
:15:16. > :15:19.everyone should have the attacked in County Tyrone, and
:15:20. > :15:24.to access justice. That has to be the way we work in a democratic
:15:25. > :15:28.society. Even if the victims know that as years pass, in the wake of
:15:29. > :15:37.John Larkin's comments, the chances of getting justice well received
:15:38. > :15:46.very quickly? -- will recede very quickly. Yes, this is correct, but
:15:47. > :15:49.in the Proctor case, they brought through new methods and new
:15:50. > :15:54.evidence, and they could find out who killed John Proctor. The fact
:15:55. > :15:58.that this murderer will only serve two years is apparent to me, but
:15:59. > :16:04.everybody else supported the Good Friday Agreement here, and
:16:05. > :16:08.therefore, it is more of a recognition that this man has killed
:16:09. > :16:13.somebody, but at the end of the day, it gives him the wreckage vision,
:16:14. > :16:23.they know who murdered their loved ones and they have that could ocean.
:16:24. > :16:26.-- that recognition. Is it not important for those that died in the
:16:27. > :16:31.troubles that this peace process goes ahead and it changes the lives
:16:32. > :16:38.of young people that desperately need to be helped. There is a point
:16:39. > :16:47.where thinking about the past and searching for this truth, it is so
:16:48. > :16:51.difficult to find something in life that is an absolute truth, so we
:16:52. > :16:59.should surely be tilting towards the future? That is fine, but we cannot
:17:00. > :17:08.tell the victims what they should and should not have. Your argument
:17:09. > :17:16.is for the greater good of society. You need to have the hope of getting
:17:17. > :17:21.justice. If we had empathy, compassion, we would build a
:17:22. > :17:25.stronger peace process. In war-torn areas of the world, there is a limit
:17:26. > :17:29.to the point where people are victims, there is a point of people
:17:30. > :17:36.are encouraged to get on with their lives. APPLAUSE
:17:37. > :17:43.I do not believe this excludes us from having justice for the past.
:17:44. > :17:48.You can have a culture of people are forgiving and can move on with their
:17:49. > :17:51.lives. But you also have a centre in justice is not ignored, because this
:17:52. > :18:03.is a good welding block for the future. We need to speak to families
:18:04. > :18:06.properly, they may never gets justice because of the passage of
:18:07. > :18:10.time, they may not get truth because people that have the truth may not
:18:11. > :18:13.give it up, and we need to be honest about that and not raise expect
:18:14. > :18:17.nations beyond where it is possible. That is a different
:18:18. > :18:21.conversation to watch John Larkin was proposing, I think even if it is
:18:22. > :18:26.possible, you would be denied the right to justice. I do not think any
:18:27. > :18:30.of us has the right to impose that. It could be that there is part of
:18:31. > :18:35.this process where we are looking at the past, that some victims will
:18:36. > :18:41.choose to forego justice to try to attain the truth instead. To get
:18:42. > :18:44.one, you could not be able to have the other, possibly, but that is the
:18:45. > :18:46.choice for the individual victims and we have to respect these
:18:47. > :18:50.decisions that they make, and we have to respect these
:18:51. > :18:54.for them, this is personal and it is not about the past, they live with
:18:55. > :18:59.it every day. Their lives have changed, it is their present and we
:19:00. > :19:06.need to find ways to do this with integrity so we can build a better
:19:07. > :19:10.future. Billy Hutchinson. I am not so sure that the Attorney General
:19:11. > :19:14.just through this out there. I am not sure that he just party would
:19:15. > :19:19.shock this, I think he did it for a reason. The question has come from
:19:20. > :19:22.the floor, I think the reality is, it is an option. Nobody says it is
:19:23. > :19:29.the right option, but it is an option. It goes back to the argument
:19:30. > :19:33.of transitional justice, do the victims want truth or justice? Some
:19:34. > :19:38.may want to justice, some may want the truth. The two are compatible
:19:39. > :19:42.for this reason, because of somebody has the truth and they come forward
:19:43. > :19:47.with it, and the truth of this is, they will suffer the consequences
:19:48. > :19:51.for the rest of their lives. It does not matter if they go to prison for
:19:52. > :19:55.two years, they have consequences for the rest of their lives because
:19:56. > :19:59.there are government restrictions on what you can do. I am not so sure
:20:00. > :20:04.that the attorney general said this... I don't think people lose
:20:05. > :20:11.sleep over people serving two years for murder. The point is, I
:20:12. > :20:17.recognise, as someone involved in the conflict, but victims are the
:20:18. > :20:29.way forward. Do you want an honesty? -- amnesty? I do not know,
:20:30. > :20:33.I do not think an amnesty is on people 's lips. He has not looked at
:20:34. > :20:38.the prosecutions over the last number of years since signing the
:20:39. > :20:41.Good Friday Agreement, have we had any benefits from the prosecutions
:20:42. > :20:46.that have happened, that is what he is saying? All he is doing is
:20:47. > :20:54.putting a question out there, it is an option, not necessarily the right
:20:55. > :20:58.one. Let us hear from the floor. The conundrum has been expressed by the
:20:59. > :21:03.last few panellists, what they have said. The victims do not, they are
:21:04. > :21:08.not uniform. Some will seek justice, some will be content with
:21:09. > :21:13.the truth and can move on with that. But as Billy said to the first
:21:14. > :21:17.question, we will not get the truth if the issues of justice, perhaps,
:21:18. > :21:24.are not dealt with. People will not tell the truth. That is the
:21:25. > :21:25.conundrum we are facing. Notwithstanding the appetite for
:21:26. > :21:31.truth or justice, clearly Notwithstanding the appetite for
:21:32. > :21:33.cost money, has nobody in the panel considered that the Attorney General
:21:34. > :21:41.is getting it out there that there is no money for either? It is not a
:21:42. > :21:46.money question. This is about trying to heal the past to build the
:21:47. > :21:50.future. I think John Larkin handled the situation poorly. He is
:21:51. > :21:54.perfectly entitled to put out the message that he did, but he should
:21:55. > :21:59.have spoken to the victims groups and advised that he would be saying
:22:00. > :22:05.that, and they would be prepared for that. He has certainly sparked a
:22:06. > :22:12.debate. He had support from the Bishop of down and Connor, and Basil
:22:13. > :22:15.McCrea before that. We have come out of it conflict, not a criminal
:22:16. > :22:18.conspiracy, this is an internationally recognised conflict
:22:19. > :22:21.that needed a internationally recognised conflict
:22:22. > :22:26.resolve it, not criminal legislation to resolve it, not criminal acts to
:22:27. > :22:31.resolve it, not militarism to resolve it, a political process that
:22:32. > :22:35.is act I some of the most powerful nations in this world to make it
:22:36. > :22:43.work. -- act that is backed by some of the more powerful nations. The
:22:44. > :22:46.rights of victims are also not uniform. We know who carried out the
:22:47. > :22:51.shootings on bloody Sunday 40 years ago. They're as been no criminal
:22:52. > :22:57.investigation into that. We know who carried out the shootings in 1971 in
:22:58. > :23:06.Ballymurphy, had been no criminal investigations into that. We know
:23:07. > :23:09.who was involved in the military reaction force in Belfast and other
:23:10. > :23:15.faces because it wasn't only a Belfast operation and it did not
:23:16. > :23:17.only end in 1972 or 1973, but none of those people are spending two
:23:18. > :23:27.years in jail for anything and they never well. Go ahead. Do you believe
:23:28. > :23:30.in the truth? You're talking about bloody Sunday and everything else
:23:31. > :23:35.that your party colleagues will tell the truth that they were in the IRA
:23:36. > :23:43.and did a lot of shooting and bombing to your party Catholics? And
:23:44. > :23:48.yet you back, yet you are saying, you are all for the truth and
:23:49. > :23:54.whatever happened, bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy, as that is fine, and I
:23:55. > :23:59.agree with all that. There is clearly Sinn Fein members that were
:24:00. > :24:02.members of the IRA, there were clearly other political party
:24:03. > :24:05.members that were involved of armed groups as well, but we have got to
:24:06. > :24:09.this point because we were involved in a peace process, there was a
:24:10. > :24:14.conflict between nations and communities here that had to be
:24:15. > :24:23.resolved. We will not resolve it through a criminal analysis going
:24:24. > :24:27.into the future. Back to Terry. I think that as a society and as
:24:28. > :24:30.politicians, there is too much time bickering about the past and no
:24:31. > :24:34.amount of enquiries will ever solve it. We need to build for the future,
:24:35. > :24:45.it is about the living and not the dead. Let's go to our next question
:24:46. > :24:50.now. Does the panel believe that we should follow the example of Canada
:24:51. > :24:56.who in 1965 decided to adopt a new and iconic flag for their country?
:24:57. > :25:02.Yes, previous Canadian flag had some version of the union flag on them,
:25:03. > :25:07.but in 1965 they adopted the maple leaf. Richard Haass has told people
:25:08. > :25:16.to think about a new flag, Billy Hutchinson, watched you think? --
:25:17. > :25:20.what do you think? From my point of view, the union Jack is the national
:25:21. > :25:25.flag of the country, I am British and I live in Britain, so I do not
:25:26. > :25:29.want to see a new flag or do I want to be involved in creating a new
:25:30. > :25:32.one. We need to be careful about using other countries as examples of
:25:33. > :25:38.what went on. I have relatives living in Canada, and they were not
:25:39. > :25:41.particularly happy whenever these flags were changed, so from that
:25:42. > :25:47.point of view, we do not have everyone's view. Richard Haass has
:25:48. > :25:49.thrown out a question and he is asking us about a flag. He had a
:25:50. > :25:53.number of other questions and asking us about a flag. He had a
:25:54. > :25:58.of these I am not so sure that he will get any conclusions from and
:25:59. > :26:03.Naomi Long said she was involved in talks today, so it will be
:26:04. > :26:11.interesting how involved the executive got? Is there a concrete
:26:12. > :26:30.way to own up to the recognition that there are two competing
:26:31. > :26:37.ideologies? We have talked a lot about the past. The problem is we
:26:38. > :26:42.have not dealt with the past and that is why we have problems around
:26:43. > :26:49.parades and flags. The DL it is when Sinn Fein members cannot even after
:26:50. > :27:00.the name Northern Ireland, when they are administering British rule in a
:27:01. > :27:07.British Assembly. This is a long mindset about the terminology we
:27:08. > :27:21.use. We have gone through a peace process was up we went to see less
:27:22. > :27:31.flags hanging. That is what people want to see. As an Irish republican,
:27:32. > :27:48.I have allegiance to the Irish tricolour. It is not a flag stands
:27:49. > :27:54.for that is the most important thing. I do not believe I have
:27:55. > :28:03.hoisted any flag anywhere. Have you taken any down? I have. I have taken
:28:04. > :28:12.Irish tricolour is down when they were being used for the wrong
:28:13. > :28:16.reasons. What we need to do is work our way through this current phase
:28:17. > :28:20.of negotiations and inwardly about colours on a flag afterwards full
:28:21. > :28:32.stop there that the important issues being dealt with. You talk about
:28:33. > :28:35.identity and history. I think this is fascinating for supper I am so
:28:36. > :28:43.glad Richard has come over and listened. You are doing me out of a
:28:44. > :28:58.job. I have considered flags since I first saw them. The severed red hand
:28:59. > :29:04.was on the coat of arms. It is the symbol of Ulster full stop Unionists
:29:05. > :29:09.have adopted it but it belongs to all of us and we can track it back
:29:10. > :29:19.to ancient times for that I would like to see a flag with the red hand
:29:20. > :29:24.on debt. A variation. -- an egg. Flags are enormously expensive.
:29:25. > :29:28.Nationalities have become ludicrously expensive when you think
:29:29. > :29:32.about the wars and the disturbances around the world. I think
:29:33. > :29:38.nationalities and flag should only be used in it ought. We need to
:29:39. > :29:48.start working together, but just in Northern Ireland but across the
:29:49. > :29:55.land. The red hand of -- the red hand of Ulster is one artefact data
:29:56. > :30:04.has been exhibiting at Derry-Londonderry City of Culture. A
:30:05. > :30:08.flag is more than a piece of cloth. The union flag is not the only flag
:30:09. > :30:18.and people like to recognise the Irish tricolour. There are many
:30:19. > :30:22.analogies. It is not just about the union flag or the tricolour. Making
:30:23. > :30:32.a new flag would be a good idea to move us forward. One theory is that
:30:33. > :30:39.Richard has been playing devils advocate when talking about flags.
:30:40. > :30:51.This could be a active to get politicians to take action on these
:30:52. > :30:55.issues. The British government treated Unionism as the Americans
:30:56. > :31:12.treated the beard dummies -- the Vietnamese. A government using a
:31:13. > :31:15.treated the beard dummies -- the sense that it was expendable. The
:31:16. > :31:19.Alliance Party got into a lot of trouble wanting to take the flag
:31:20. > :31:27.down of Belfast City Hall. Where do you stand on the one flag, the new
:31:28. > :31:30.flag issue? The first issue is about whether it would be good to have
:31:31. > :31:37.shared symbols in Northern Ireland, things in common. It is a unique
:31:38. > :31:44.region. That is a positive thing to explore as a community. We have seen
:31:45. > :31:48.that symbols are hugely emotive. We see it with all of our symbolism. If
:31:49. > :31:56.we can find symbols that evoke that passion about Northern Ireland in a
:31:57. > :32:02.united way it would be good. I would not rule things in and out. I want
:32:03. > :32:08.to hear what people have to say and I want to explore those ideas with
:32:09. > :32:12.other people. It does not solve the fundamental issue that we are
:32:13. > :32:21.dealing with in terms of Richard has and that is how we treat our
:32:22. > :32:27.constitutional symbols. We should treat both flags with respect and
:32:28. > :32:33.dignity as we would treat with respect the flag of any mission.
:32:34. > :32:38.That does not mean having shared symbols plays a role in and locking
:32:39. > :32:43.those symbols. They are not necessarily a solution to the core
:32:44. > :32:44.problem but it would help to move us down the road and that would be a
:32:45. > :32:53.step forward. We down the road and that would be a
:32:54. > :33:01.dilution of the national flag. That is from the statement of the deed
:33:02. > :33:06.you leave. -- DUP. The Belfast agreement made it clear that under
:33:07. > :33:10.the principle of consent, we would remain part of the United Kingdom
:33:11. > :33:13.until the greater number of people decided otherwise. Under the
:33:14. > :33:18.principle of consent therefore the union flag is the flag of this part
:33:19. > :33:22.of the United Kingdom. That is our national flag. It should be accorded
:33:23. > :33:27.the respect from everybody, not just from Unionist but everyone in the
:33:28. > :33:32.country but it is our national flag. We will not allow any dilution of
:33:33. > :33:40.the national flag because it is the flag of the nation and as a British
:33:41. > :33:46.subject that is where I am. The peace process is about recognising
:33:47. > :33:52.two traditions. It is also about keeping the principles we signed up
:33:53. > :33:55.to. The principle of consent in the Belfast agreement is clear. We are
:33:56. > :33:59.staying in the United Kingdom until such times as the greater number of
:34:00. > :34:04.people decide otherwise for the icy note evidence of the greater number
:34:05. > :34:08.of people in Northern Ireland moving away from the United Kingdom for
:34:09. > :34:17.that in fact we are moving more in the other direction. Flying the flag
:34:18. > :34:20.on designated days at all cancers in Northern Ireland would achieve
:34:21. > :34:24.that. That is our proposal in terms of dealing with the flag for the pic
:34:25. > :34:34.is how it is flown at the majority of councils across the rest of the
:34:35. > :34:42.United kingdom. -- United Kingdom. They do you recognise my Irish
:34:43. > :34:49.identity quest to Mac it is not up to me to recognise that. While I am
:34:50. > :34:53.saying to you is that you have to accept what you signed up to in the
:34:54. > :35:00.Belfast agreement which is the principle of consent. Sinn Fein time
:35:01. > :35:09.and time again move away from that. That is another aspect which you
:35:10. > :35:15.have failed upon. Do you believe the recent violence from Unionism. We
:35:16. > :35:24.are moving away from the question now. What have you deemed from that?
:35:25. > :35:29.The reason they decided to now. What have you deemed from that?
:35:30. > :35:38.was they had been involved in the peace process after the Suez crisis
:35:39. > :35:46.in the 1950s. It was good to rebrand and shake off some of their colonial
:35:47. > :35:54.baggage. There is no country more loyal to the Commonwealth than
:35:55. > :36:01.Canada. Not to mention Quebec and Montreal. They felt it was time to
:36:02. > :36:09.rebrand and move on. I believe Northern Ireland has reached that
:36:10. > :36:11.point. There is a fundamental distance. Northern Ireland is a
:36:12. > :36:22.constituent part of the United Kingdom. Canada never was. The flag
:36:23. > :36:26.constituent part of the United is in the union flag was up I would
:36:27. > :36:44.be happy to adopt the Saint Patrick flag. Time for the next question. Is
:36:45. > :36:53.the UVF cease-fire still intact? There have been instances and
:36:54. > :37:00.protests about the flag. If the cease-fire still intact? It is still
:37:01. > :37:08.intact. You will have two ask the IRA. I am saying it is intact. But
:37:09. > :37:15.what I am saying to the questioner is that you have two
:37:16. > :37:24.what I am saying to the questioner the IRA cease-fire is still intact.
:37:25. > :37:38.If we take the statement by the Deputy First Minister that the UVF
:37:39. > :37:46.was organised in an incident. None of the people involved were in the
:37:47. > :37:48.UVF. The police cannot tell me who was responsible for the shooting for
:37:49. > :38:04.the people on the ground do not know. People in East Belfast do not
:38:05. > :38:12.believe it was the UVF. Those sort of thing should not be
:38:13. > :38:15.believe it was the UVF. Those sort now. I do not believe you can be a
:38:16. > :38:22.criminal and a loyalist at the same time. I am in the Progressive
:38:23. > :38:35.Unionist Party and we have a broad church. We know the party is linked
:38:36. > :38:38.to the UVF. We have been saying this from before 1984. Our goal is to
:38:39. > :38:52.give political advice whenever they ask for it. It is a closer link than
:38:53. > :38:58.anyone else at this table. I have answered the question. I do think
:38:59. > :39:00.people need to recognise that there are Republicans out
:39:01. > :39:03.people need to recognise that there kill people and take the city apart.
:39:04. > :39:17.We are not hearing questions coming from there. The UVF cease-fire is a
:39:18. > :39:21.matter for the chief constable and the police to determine on. The
:39:22. > :39:30.signs are not good in terms of the attempted murder and what is going
:39:31. > :39:35.on in relation to Tracey Coulter. That is another colour military
:39:36. > :39:39.organisation. That paramilitary organisation could I do not care
:39:40. > :39:43.where any paramilitary organisation comes from that that is no place
:39:44. > :39:49.them in Northern Ireland today. That is the point that needs to be made.
:39:50. > :39:54.They need to get off the backs of the working class people in those
:39:55. > :39:58.areas and they need to move away from their loan shark activities and
:39:59. > :40:05.drug activities and all those sorts of activities that back bringing
:40:06. > :40:13.harm to working class areas. I think we need to send clear messages out
:40:14. > :40:22.that paramilitary is has no place in Northern Ireland. We have to be
:40:23. > :40:29.clear about this. The chief constable and assistant chief
:40:30. > :40:37.constable and others cannot tell us where this is going on. It is OK for
:40:38. > :40:40.members of the Assembly to say all of this but that is no evidence from
:40:41. > :40:47.the police that suggests to me this is going on. We want to see a
:40:48. > :40:57.society where there are no paramilitaries in society. We should
:40:58. > :41:03.watch the show, listening to do what they are saying and witness the
:41:04. > :41:09.diatribe spilling into people 's living rooms is part of the problem.
:41:10. > :41:13.Orange, green, it does not change. You do not represent me. It is time
:41:14. > :41:22.to move on. It is a whole lot of us here who do not take sides and never
:41:23. > :41:24.have. We have been left behind. When I say paramilitaries should go, that
:41:25. > :41:43.is taking sides? The question was, do we believe the
:41:44. > :41:46.the UVF are still in operation? We have people that are being
:41:47. > :41:52.threatened by the UVF and are looking for my help. We need to look
:41:53. > :41:56.at who is responsible? I think it is the Secretary of State that has two:
:41:57. > :42:04.If these fires are still in place or not, but the reality is, people do
:42:05. > :42:07.not believe that after the brutal attack after somebody like Gemma
:42:08. > :42:14.McGrath, who we hope will walk again, but when you see a young
:42:15. > :42:19.child of 15, shot in the legs, who might lose their limbs, that is
:42:20. > :42:25.child abuse. I am not discounting those who took a bomb into the city
:42:26. > :42:29.centre and left it and could have caused absolute carnage in our city
:42:30. > :42:33.centre. I do not discount that, nor do I argue that we should all those
:42:34. > :42:39.people to account, but nobody is arguing that those people are on
:42:40. > :42:45.cease-fire. Nobody is arguing that the people are not engaged in active
:42:46. > :42:50.terrorism. People create a smoke screen by saying elements within,
:42:51. > :42:54.almonds within the UVF are links to responsible for... If the UVF are
:42:55. > :42:59.behind these attacks, we need clarity and we need to shine a light
:43:00. > :43:03.on those attacks where it is clear that former Republicans, mainstream
:43:04. > :43:07.Republicans, they had been working with dissident republicans, because
:43:08. > :43:11.it has been clear from some of the devices that were planted that this
:43:12. > :43:15.technology has been passed on. We need to highlight all of that, and I
:43:16. > :43:18.ask of the government that they put in place the kind of reporting that
:43:19. > :43:22.we had when he has the Independent in place the kind of reporting that
:43:23. > :43:27.monitoring commission to look at the activities, both those that are
:43:28. > :43:32.criminal and terrorist related and shine a light on that. I agree with
:43:33. > :43:36.the woman in the audience, this is the point where I switch off the
:43:37. > :43:39.television and I sit on my sofa and dream, wouldn't it be amazing if we
:43:40. > :43:43.could educate our children together? Wouldn't it be incredible
:43:44. > :43:48.if we could stop adding ridiculous arrogance about flags this matter I
:43:49. > :43:52.would not like any flag! Other than the one I would cook up myself! I
:43:53. > :43:56.would like the money wasted on policing these arguments to go to
:43:57. > :44:00.the health service, to go to the education service, and frankly, I
:44:01. > :44:05.think the loyalist people have been sold a pub in thinking that holding
:44:06. > :44:08.on to a piece of material with crosses and exes in red and blue
:44:09. > :44:14.actually maintained their sense British this? My sense of humanity
:44:15. > :44:26.is my nationality, my family is my nation. Do you think the UVF
:44:27. > :44:31.cease-fire is over? The evidence is on the ground. If you are living in
:44:32. > :44:34.east Belfast, North Belfast or other constituencies under the control of
:44:35. > :44:38.the UVF, you cannot turn the TV off, it is the reality of the
:44:39. > :44:42.situation in their lives. The question is, why is it still in
:44:43. > :44:48.existence 15 years after the cease-fire is? No matter how many
:44:49. > :44:52.years, six or seven years since the disbandment of the IRA, and they
:44:53. > :44:56.have disbanded, it may suit the debate for Naomi to say, mainstream
:44:57. > :45:00.Republicans are involved in this, no credible analysis of the current
:45:01. > :45:04.situation will show you that mainstream Republicans are involved
:45:05. > :45:10.in any of the anti-peace process activities that are being carried
:45:11. > :45:13.out by the UVF or by so-called dissident republicans. I suspect
:45:14. > :45:17.that the same people running the UVF are running dissident republicans
:45:18. > :45:21.and I hope in ten years time you're not sitting in this studio finding
:45:22. > :45:25.out that malign elements within the so-called British security services
:45:26. > :45:38.were messing with all of our lives? Let's go back to the question. Billy
:45:39. > :45:43.knew all along that there was collusion with the mythic tribunal,
:45:44. > :45:49.wide it he not bring his evidence before the tribunal took place? At
:45:50. > :45:51.however, I have no time for any paramilitary organisations or any
:45:52. > :45:58.type of violence in any quarter, but the violence that has been portrayed
:45:59. > :46:05.on the Shankill, that the lady's home was attacked and drug-related,
:46:06. > :46:08.they need to... The lady's home in the Shankill Road is nothing to do
:46:09. > :46:17.with the UVF, she has said to it was, we need to be clear about all
:46:18. > :46:25.of this. Yes, we need to be accurate at all times. Now, a question. Is
:46:26. > :46:33.Gerry Adams now a liability to Sinn Fein and Republicans, both north and
:46:34. > :46:39.south of the border? A recent re-weighting over questions in his
:46:40. > :46:44.role in the disappeared and other the conviction of his brother Liam
:46:45. > :46:52.on sex abuse charges have raised questions, do you think is
:46:53. > :46:55.liability? If I ask this question, why are so many enemies of
:46:56. > :47:01.Republicans looking to get rid of him? When I see anti-peace process
:47:02. > :47:03.Republicans on the TV telling allayed stories about Gerry Adams
:47:04. > :47:07.and are feeling some Gerry Adams and how he is damaging republic is,
:47:08. > :47:11.these are the same people that walked away from republicanism,
:47:12. > :47:17.because he was bringing us into the peace process. When I see the
:47:18. > :47:20.mainstream media concerned about the future of Sinn Fein because Gerry
:47:21. > :47:24.Adams is leading them, this is the same media that for years have been
:47:25. > :47:29.attacking Sinn Fein on a wide variety of issues and I say, they
:47:30. > :47:33.are not genuinely concerned for the well-being of Sinn Fein are Gerry
:47:34. > :47:38.Adams or the victim of Liam Adams, because it is the child that is
:47:39. > :47:48.abused by the media, the South, because it is the child that is
:47:49. > :47:54.these allegations. In fairness, she came forward. I am not pointing any
:47:55. > :48:00.finger of blame to the victim of this crime, do not suggest this. I
:48:01. > :48:09.am not saying this, you said the media were dragging it out, she
:48:10. > :48:14.rejected anonymity and came forward. People are not interested in the
:48:15. > :48:22.victim, they are interested in political scaremongering. Gerry
:48:23. > :48:25.Adams has your support? Yes, until he stands at the Ard Fheis and says
:48:26. > :48:32.he does not want to be the leader, then he will have my support. There
:48:33. > :48:38.is a great danger for people using politics as other types of showbiz
:48:39. > :48:41.for the less talented. I think we are talking about going around in
:48:42. > :48:47.circles and I do not really care very much about our politicians, to
:48:48. > :48:55.be honest with you! They do not have any leadership. It is showbiz for
:48:56. > :48:58.the ugly, present company excluded! These are important questions, the
:48:59. > :49:01.questions about what Gerry Adams might have known about the
:49:02. > :49:08.disappeared, his role might hit have been in the ultimate conviction of
:49:09. > :49:12.his brother... I am not naive enough to think that everything he said is
:49:13. > :49:17.true. I do not think a lot of what our politicians say is true, a lot
:49:18. > :49:21.of it is about perception and about encouraging people to vote in
:49:22. > :49:25.traditional ways. I think that we think Lily failed to have leadership
:49:26. > :49:31.in this country. -- singer Lily failed. What is important at the
:49:32. > :49:42.moment is the possibility of fracking in County Fermanagh. She
:49:43. > :49:46.seems to dismiss politics out of hand, it plays to anti-peace process
:49:47. > :49:57.elements, and I am not talking about any politics. I am very political. I
:49:58. > :50:04.have very political but I do not think we have effective politics in
:50:05. > :50:08.Northern Ireland. Naomi, would you address the question of Gerry Adams
:50:09. > :50:14.being a liability or otherwise to Republicans north and south? I am
:50:15. > :50:19.not in a position to say whether Republicans think he is a liability
:50:20. > :50:24.or not, that is their decision, but I think it does show how things were
:50:25. > :50:28.in Northern Ireland, not just in terms of what one to me that he did
:50:29. > :50:30.to another, but the kind of injustices that were meted out
:50:31. > :50:34.within families and within communities because of the very
:50:35. > :50:38.warped sense of loyalty that people had to different causes. Fact that
:50:39. > :50:42.people didn't feel they could engage with the police, the fact that they
:50:43. > :50:46.did not think they had recourse to justice, the fact that people opted
:50:47. > :50:51.to go to paramilitary is to add resolution rather than the normal
:50:52. > :50:57.justice system, and how justice was denied, but also on the core
:50:58. > :51:01.issues. Things like child abuse, things like abuse of young people,
:51:02. > :51:05.those things also were not given their problems during the troubles,
:51:06. > :51:10.because everything focused on something else. That is injustice,
:51:11. > :51:12.and that will out also. And that is why walking away from the past is
:51:13. > :51:16.not a solution, we have why walking away from the past is
:51:17. > :51:21.the past, deal with the past, and that involves everyone in this room
:51:22. > :51:26.and it involves Gerry Adams also and no walking away from what he did,
:51:27. > :51:28.what he did and did not know. It has to be acknowledged by everyone in
:51:29. > :51:36.the community and we need to find ways to heal this harm that has been
:51:37. > :51:39.done. Essentially, there are two questions in relation to the
:51:40. > :51:43.leadership of Sinn Fein. That is a matter for Sinn Fein and they will
:51:44. > :51:46.make their own decision. As to his credibility, he has not had any
:51:47. > :51:51.credibility for some considerable time. This insistence that he is not
:51:52. > :51:58.a member or never was a member of the IRA is just laughable, nobody
:51:59. > :52:00.believes him. The issue about the disappeared which was hugely
:52:01. > :52:03.difficult programme to watch, but a very important programme to be have
:52:04. > :52:08.been made. His credibility is nowhere. If you look at his point
:52:09. > :52:12.about politicians in Northern Ireland and if you look at Naomi's
:52:13. > :52:18.point, there was a culture of secrecy, particularly around child
:52:19. > :52:22.abuse in the 70s, 80s and 90s and I have seen it in my constituency and
:52:23. > :52:29.you may conclude politicians, Rita, you're entitled to do that, but if
:52:30. > :52:33.you are dealing with constituents that have suffered from historic
:52:34. > :52:39.child abuse going back to the 70s and 80s, I think that we do quite a
:52:40. > :52:43.good job in a constituency offices. You may disagree, but that is a
:52:44. > :52:53.fundamental part of what we date. You might see a Sun TV thinking we
:52:54. > :53:01.fight and stew of those things, but we deliver a service. Very quick
:53:02. > :53:07.late, Billy. Looking at it from the outside, there are three things that
:53:08. > :53:12.has hung Gerry Adams, from sort of people that are not involved with
:53:13. > :53:35.republicanism, and that is, the non-reporting of the rape of his
:53:36. > :53:41.knees. -- neice. Also, his denial of being in the IRA, and also the
:53:42. > :53:45.disappeared. What do you think? Stephen, what you think the answer
:53:46. > :53:53.to your question is? I Stephen, what you think the answer
:53:54. > :53:59.is becoming a bit of a liability, and in general, my personal opinion,
:54:00. > :54:02.I would welcome any severing of a criminal past that Sinn Fein may
:54:03. > :54:07.have, and I welcome that for the future, so it might be time to move
:54:08. > :54:18.on, but that is only my opinion. Just one comments to go by? The
:54:19. > :54:29.criminal past of champagne? -- Sinn Fein? A period in our history in
:54:30. > :54:34.conflict, let us not just dismiss it as a criminal conspiracy. Let us
:54:35. > :54:37.move on, Andrew Morrison has a question, he buys aircraft parts and
:54:38. > :54:44.he from Londonderry. The question, he buys aircraft parts and
:54:45. > :54:54.2013 and Scotland as an independent nation, where does that leave
:54:55. > :55:00.Unionism? The two years into the independence debate, birders
:55:01. > :55:04.Unionism stand here? I do not think it will happen, and when you listen
:55:05. > :55:08.to the debate in Scotland, I am not so sure that the Scottish National
:55:09. > :55:15.Party Billy wants independence, because they still want the Queen
:55:16. > :55:19.and the currency and it is not for me a real question. I do not think
:55:20. > :55:22.they will get independence, because I do not think people in Scotland
:55:23. > :55:28.will want the vote for independence, , so for me, I do not think it will
:55:29. > :55:35.happen. A hypothetical question not worth addressing. I think you're
:55:36. > :55:42.hoping it will not happen. It will be enormously good for the tourism
:55:43. > :55:51.potential, they can celebrate cultural... Berlitz leave Unionism?
:55:52. > :56:00.Baby in a to learn. Learn what? Learn more about the colonial
:56:01. > :56:02.situation we're living in. It is an interesting proposition, I do not
:56:03. > :56:08.think Scotland will leave the union, I think they will opt for the
:56:09. > :56:14.devolution max. That trend is, we will see maximum devolution in
:56:15. > :56:17.different regions of the UK, maximum co-operation between the Republic of
:56:18. > :56:21.Ireland and the UK, and I think we will see that within an expanding
:56:22. > :56:25.Europe, so I do not know that even if Scotland were to leave the union,
:56:26. > :56:27.given the kind of context in which they are talking about, which
:56:28. > :56:31.given the kind of context in which remaining in the EU, keeping the
:56:32. > :56:36.pound sterling, and all the rest of it, I do not think it would really
:56:37. > :56:39.affect things here and I think given how complex our politics are, I am
:56:40. > :56:44.happy to let the Scottish people make up their own mind in this
:56:45. > :56:47.situation. I would get annoyed when people told us what to do in
:56:48. > :56:51.Northern Ireland, I think we should be mature enough to make our own
:56:52. > :56:55.choices. I am happy to let the Scottish people make their decision,
:56:56. > :57:00.but the reality is, we will have a situation with smaller as poorer
:57:01. > :57:02.nations with more regionally devolves power but better
:57:03. > :57:05.cooperation between them, and that is a really good thing regardless of
:57:06. > :57:11.whether Scotland is in or out of the union. The interesting thing about
:57:12. > :57:16.the Scottish debate is it as been handled rationally and it is about
:57:17. > :57:17.the economy and the economic and asserts of awe of not leaving the
:57:18. > :57:26.union and that is what our debate asserts of awe of not leaving the
:57:27. > :57:30.needs to be. We do not have the information coming from the Treasury
:57:31. > :57:34.about what it means for us to leave the union, we're told that we will
:57:35. > :57:38.get a grant and all of this, but they do not breakdown the figures.
:57:39. > :57:46.Very Unionism, I think it means that if Scotland leaves the union, that
:57:47. > :57:48.you can leave the union and still have British identity. That is worth
:57:49. > :57:51.exploring in relation to how the Scottish have dealt with this
:57:52. > :57:55.aliment of British identity in their society. It also shows that the
:57:56. > :57:59.union can dissolve and it can dissolve peacefully and
:58:00. > :58:04.democratically and society can move on. The other interesting element is
:58:05. > :58:09.the rise of nationalism within England and I am not talking about
:58:10. > :58:15.the racist nationalism that we have on the streets of England at times,
:58:16. > :58:18.I mean the debate around English representatives about where their
:58:19. > :58:27.identity is going and where it is going in terms of economic power.
:58:28. > :58:30.Arlene. The difference between Scottish rationalism and
:58:31. > :58:35.republicanism here, we did not have 40 years of violence in Scotland and
:58:36. > :58:39.John needs to allege that. I am very happy to have the economic debate
:58:40. > :58:42.with John because the UK is the fastest-growing developed nation in
:58:43. > :58:48.the world and why in heaven 's name with Scotland's leave that growth
:58:49. > :58:51.pattern that they have? It is a hypothetical question and it is a
:58:52. > :58:56.negotiating position and they probably will give more devolution
:58:57. > :59:00.of the back of its depending on how close the debate is, but with
:59:01. > :59:07.regards to Northern Ireland, we are in the UK and we are into state.
:59:08. > :59:12.Andrew? It is interesting, some dismissive views, but in the next
:59:13. > :59:23.few years, will you a lot about this with people talking about Northern
:59:24. > :59:28.Ireland. -- we will hear a lot. It is not down traditional party lines
:59:29. > :59:32.as other issues would be. That is where we have to leave it this
:59:33. > :59:35.evening. Thank you to our guests and studio audience and GUI tool for
:59:36. > :59:46.watching and taking part. The debate continues online. From this the
:59:47. > :59:48.team, good night.