:00:21. > :00:35.Hello and welcome to Spotlight Special. Over the next hour, our
:00:36. > :00:39.studio audience will be putting questions and the big issues of the
:00:40. > :00:44.day to our panel, let's introduce them to you. Joining us are the
:00:45. > :00:50.Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton of the DUP. The broadcasting doctor,
:00:51. > :00:55.Mark Hamilton. Bob McCartney QC a former MP and MLA. Patricia MacBride
:00:56. > :00:58.a former victims' commissioner. The Sinn Fein MP knewy Armagh, Conor
:00:59. > :01:02.Murphy. Ladies and gentlemen, that sour line-up for tonight's Spotlight
:01:03. > :01:10.Special. APPLAUSE
:01:11. > :01:12.-- is our. You at home have your part to play. We want to know what
:01:13. > :01:16.you think about the talking points of the day. You can text your
:01:17. > :01:25.comments throughout the programme to 81 7716789 you can phone and email
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:01:37. > :01:40.charged at your standard message rate. Let's plunge right in. Our
:01:41. > :01:47.first question tonight is from Aidan Hannah, a trade union organiser. Why
:01:48. > :01:51.is there still a climate of fear within the NHS and why is frontline
:01:52. > :01:55.staff still afraid to blow the whistle? The NHS making headlines
:01:56. > :01:59.every day. Nurses saying morale never lower. The new boss of the NHS
:02:00. > :02:04.in England saying the service is facing it is biggest challenge in
:02:05. > :02:10.history. This is because of lack of resources. If it's bad management,
:02:11. > :02:14.do we need to know about that? Should staff be eager to tell us
:02:15. > :02:20.about. It if we go to the man with most specialist knowledge on this,
:02:21. > :02:25.Mark. I think that the thing in England has really caused a lot of
:02:26. > :02:30.problems with Mid Staffs, the Francis Report had something like
:02:31. > :02:34.290 recommendations. It was everything from, you know, the very
:02:35. > :02:40.basic level of care with patients being poor and inhumane, right up to
:02:41. > :02:47.management level, to MPs. It, basically, a culture that has been
:02:48. > :02:51.allowed to per veil in that area. When I look at the reports from
:02:52. > :02:57.North Antrim, similar picture seems to be coming through that, you know,
:02:58. > :03:01.morale is low, staff are afraid to question it. The duties of doctors
:03:02. > :03:05.and nurses are laid out very clearly. You know, you are supposed
:03:06. > :03:10.to point out if something is going wrong. You're supposed to blow the
:03:11. > :03:14.whistle, but when - that is not being heard. I have worked in places
:03:15. > :03:18.where that is not heard. The feeling that you are left with is - well,
:03:19. > :03:22.you know, I can't seem to change this. I'm trying my best here, the
:03:23. > :03:27.demands are getting greater. Patients are requiring more. There
:03:28. > :03:33.is more available to treat them nowadays than there was 20 or 30
:03:34. > :03:37.years ago, scans and intensive treatments. There are a wider range
:03:38. > :03:43.of treatments available. You are under pressure. Resources seem to be
:03:44. > :03:46.squeezed. It is coming from all angles. The frontline staff are
:03:47. > :03:50.dealing with the patients. They are the ones who it affects more. Speak
:03:51. > :03:53.through their representative bodies, through unions and doctor
:03:54. > :03:57.organisations, for example, would you like to see more people simply
:03:58. > :04:01.coming to the media and saying - this is what I think is wrong with
:04:02. > :04:11.the NHS Yeah, I think that has to happen. In Mid Staffs, and other
:04:12. > :04:16.places in England, senior doctors, professors and surgeons were being
:04:17. > :04:27.threatened and their job was at risk. How would a June or doctor --
:04:28. > :04:31.junior doctor put their hands up and say this is wrong. Mr Poots has been
:04:32. > :04:37.talking about the duty of candour. It was raised by a group which works
:04:38. > :04:40.with the victims of alleged hospital accidents. Why are we talking about
:04:41. > :04:43.that now? Shouldn't there always have been this idea that if there is
:04:44. > :04:46.something wrong, we in the health service management want to hear
:04:47. > :04:50.about it? We as politicians wants to hear about it? Absolutely. We don't
:04:51. > :04:54.want to have a situation where health professionals are actually
:04:55. > :04:58.worried about coming forward with problems that they see, that they
:04:59. > :05:02.should have clear lines of reporting up the line so that the people who
:05:03. > :05:08.need to know, who can make changes within management level, within our
:05:09. > :05:16.health trust and hospitals are able to take that action
:05:17. > :05:21.decountriesively. Why is there -- decisive. Why is there a culture of
:05:22. > :05:24.fear I don't think the culture is just as bad here. There have been
:05:25. > :05:31.problems here in Northern Ireland as well. Yet, we had the case of a man
:05:32. > :05:34.who died after receiving potassium incorrectly. No coroners
:05:35. > :05:39.investigation of that, for example. It may not have been a cover-up in
:05:40. > :05:44.the Northern Trust area, certainly what happened should not have
:05:45. > :05:47.happened? Absolutely. I don't think anybody would say what happened
:05:48. > :05:50.should have happened or the consequences there after should have
:05:51. > :05:54.happened. Within Northern Ireland, what happens here isn't massively
:05:55. > :05:58.different sometimes to what happens elsewhere in the world. Clinicians
:05:59. > :06:02.are making judgment calls day in and day out. Most times they get it
:06:03. > :06:06.wrong. Occasionally, they will get it wrong. We have to realise - it
:06:07. > :06:10.doesn't matter whether it's Northern Ireland, England, or anywhere in the
:06:11. > :06:16.world, health officials are under pressure because of the demand they
:06:17. > :06:21.face day in day out. Doctors say they are afraid of getting caught in
:06:22. > :06:24.the long grass. There is a danger people feel about whistle blowing
:06:25. > :06:30.isn't there? There is. We should get it into proportion. The problem in
:06:31. > :06:35.Northern Ireland, I think people should be free to blow the whistle,
:06:36. > :06:40.and I think the people who are most guilty of intimidation are not the
:06:41. > :06:45.actual medical staff or the nursing staff. It's the bureaucracy that are
:06:46. > :06:48.running our hospitals. Most evident in England where the man who was in
:06:49. > :06:55.charge of the Mid Staffs, where there were nearly 2,000 deaths
:06:56. > :07:01.aribable to lack of care, was Sir James Nicholson, was it? He was
:07:02. > :07:06.actually in charge of the operation of supervising that group of
:07:07. > :07:14.hospitals, despite the fact that all of these things happened under his
:07:15. > :07:18.watch. He was promoted to be Head of the entire National Health Service.
:07:19. > :07:21.Organisations will always act to protect themselves, won't they? Of
:07:22. > :07:26.course. There is absolutely no question. I used to say that the
:07:27. > :07:30.civil service had the great organisation for protecting their
:07:31. > :07:35.mistakes. People who made mistakes, rather than being made to paid for,
:07:36. > :07:39.it were generally kicked upstairs, as Nicholson was. At the same time,
:07:40. > :07:45.many of the problems that, for example, are assailing, for example,
:07:46. > :07:51.the Accident Emergency in the Royal are brought about by a number
:07:52. > :07:56.of factors. One, money. Money was ring financed on -- ringfenced on
:07:57. > :07:58.the mainland by David Cameron. It was not ringfenced in Northern
:07:59. > :08:02.Ireland. That additional money which should have gone to health was spent
:08:03. > :08:11.on a number of other projects decided on by the Assembly. Policies
:08:12. > :08:17.such as out of hours doctors. Doctors got a big deal under the
:08:18. > :08:23.Blair arrangement. They didn't have to work out of hours. They didn't
:08:24. > :08:28.have to work at weekends. Result - enormous pressure on the A at the
:08:29. > :08:34.weekends when mothers, elderly folk, relatives were taking people
:08:35. > :08:38.directly to the A Thirdly, the alcoholics who were certainly not
:08:39. > :08:46.anonymous. On Friday and Saturday the A system was totally
:08:47. > :08:50.overloaded with alcoholic accidents. I suppose staff in those A
:08:51. > :08:53.departments don't have time to whistle blow, do they? That is part
:08:54. > :08:58.of the issue. What is it exactly you are going to whistle blow about?
:08:59. > :09:03.There are so many problems. Is the fact that Ambulance Service response
:09:04. > :09:07.times in rural areas are way beyond target because the investment hasn't
:09:08. > :09:11.been sufficient and quick enough to get those people who are now finding
:09:12. > :09:15.themselves without an A into an emergency department much more
:09:16. > :09:18.quickly? Is it because, you know, there is not sufficient resources?
:09:19. > :09:23.Is it because the front door is open, the back door to bring people
:09:24. > :09:27.into the ward, where they can be properly medically treated or
:09:28. > :09:31.surgically treated - If we know this stuff, why do we need
:09:32. > :09:37.whistleblowers. We kind of know? If we look at what is happening with
:09:38. > :09:40.whistle blowing in the south of Ireland at the moment and the impact
:09:41. > :09:43.it's having. The support isn't there for the people who stand up and say
:09:44. > :09:47.the system is flawed, things are wrong. We have a situation where a
:09:48. > :09:50.Garda commissioner has been effectively removed from office and
:09:51. > :09:55.the minister for justice is under threat. The support network isn't
:09:56. > :09:59.there for whistleblowers for people brave enough to say, here is the
:10:00. > :10:04.problem. We need to identify it and address it. Our local government
:10:05. > :10:10.should hang their heads in shame. In 2014 people lined up on trolleys in
:10:11. > :10:14.the Royal Hospital, where was the sense of closing down A in the
:10:15. > :10:18.Belfast City Hospital? Total disgrace?
:10:19. > :10:22.APPLAUSE Hang your head in shame. I don't
:10:23. > :10:27.happen to be in the Assembly. You are a politician. Having said that,
:10:28. > :10:30.you know... We will get to the stage of talking about whistleblowers, you
:10:31. > :10:34.had a failure in the system. People should be able to bring forward, as
:10:35. > :10:37.part of their every day work and experience thoeshgs at the frontline
:10:38. > :10:40.services should be able to communicate with those taking
:10:41. > :10:43.decision in relation to health profession. This is a systematic
:10:44. > :10:47.block there. You end up with a situation where you have
:10:48. > :10:52.whistleblowers and people contemplating going outside the
:10:53. > :10:55.norm. You say people should feel free. It's not just the NHS. Any
:10:56. > :10:59.organisation. People don't like the thought of going to their line
:11:00. > :11:04.manager saying - I think we are doing it wrongly. There has been a
:11:05. > :11:08.bad mistake here. They know the organisations impulse is to keep it
:11:09. > :11:14.quiet? Particularly with health. Where people's lives are in threat.
:11:15. > :11:20.There should be a built in system where the pressures are communicated
:11:21. > :11:23.through without fear of criticism. Communicated to those making the
:11:24. > :11:28.decisions to close down hospitals and other services. Do you get that
:11:29. > :11:33.by getting the minister to go hospitals and say - come to me with
:11:34. > :11:37.your problems? He can't go to every hospital. A system needs to be put
:11:38. > :11:41.in place. In terms of hearing from frontline staff at the cold face of
:11:42. > :11:44.dealing with these problems is in the middle of that system of
:11:45. > :11:47.bureaucracy. The complaints and issues they have are not getting
:11:48. > :11:48.through to those managing and taking decisions in relation to the health
:11:49. > :11:58.service. Smart says, it is a cultural issue.
:11:59. > :12:02.If you look at the policeman down south who have come forward, they
:12:03. > :12:08.are people that have nothing to lose. -- as Mark says. They blew the
:12:09. > :12:12.whistle on the awarding of penalty points for driving offences. They
:12:13. > :12:16.are practically removed from the system. How can you expect someone
:12:17. > :12:20.whose livelihood depends on it to come forward? There is also an issue
:12:21. > :12:25.of, are of a culpable for what they report? It is a lengthy procedure
:12:26. > :12:32.once you raise the issue. That is another issue. Finally, I am a
:12:33. > :12:36.pharmacist and it is a prosecutable offence to admit to dispensing
:12:37. > :12:40.unlawfully. How can you have a culture? It is like decriminalising
:12:41. > :12:47.homosexuality. Wet macro if you made a mistake, do you think you would be
:12:48. > :12:50.prosecuted? I don't know. And to go back to decriminalising
:12:51. > :12:55.homosexuality in the South, it was a breakthrough and there was a sense
:12:56. > :13:00.of freedom. You cannot have a legislative impediment like that.
:13:01. > :13:03.The gentleman in the front row. And would like to know why the Health
:13:04. > :13:11.Minister is not a qualified medical doctor. You should know the system
:13:12. > :13:17.inside and out and then maybe we would not have these issues with
:13:18. > :13:19.inexperienced advice. Auditions are not always directly connected with
:13:20. > :13:27.the briefs they get. And that is universal. I feel that the health
:13:28. > :13:30.service is focusing on the wrong area. They are promoting health and
:13:31. > :13:35.the community without resources and they are putting more pressure on
:13:36. > :13:39.the casualty departments. They are closing departments on a routine
:13:40. > :13:42.basis. They have to decide to reopen beds in the hospitals and admit
:13:43. > :13:46.Morse patients or they have to decide to invest in secondary health
:13:47. > :13:55.care. -- more patients. They cannot have it both ways. A quick comment?
:13:56. > :14:00.The Health Minister stated this week that a lot of this work practice
:14:01. > :14:06.happened before his work. But what happened in his work was that in
:14:07. > :14:12.2012 he ordered a review of Antrim area hospital and review heard that
:14:13. > :14:15.staff within the area A reported a culture of bullying and
:14:16. > :14:18.victimisation. And still we continually hear from doctors and
:14:19. > :14:23.nurses afraid to blow the whistle because of bullying and
:14:24. > :14:27.victimisation. We should commend the Health Minister for taking the step
:14:28. > :14:30.of having a review. There has been a significant change of leadership in
:14:31. > :14:38.the Northern trust area. And with the stated objective of changing the
:14:39. > :14:42.culture. On the point of budgets, the health system in Northern
:14:43. > :14:46.Ireland is spending ?4.9 billion a year, over 40% of our total spend.
:14:47. > :14:52.It's got an increase in the last budget when many other apartments
:14:53. > :14:58.did not. I think we should commend them for the progress they have
:14:59. > :15:05.made. But that money was not ring fenced, as it was in England. We may
:15:06. > :15:09.have the chance to speak about this later but this is a different issue.
:15:10. > :15:18.Moving on to John, a retail assistant. How can the political
:15:19. > :15:23.system restore innocent victims' confidence following the on the run
:15:24. > :15:33.scandal. As he put it, the scandal was 200 letters of assurance sent to
:15:34. > :15:40.Republicans. 300 letters sent to victims already. The issue was very
:15:41. > :15:44.cruelly handled. I think there are none so blind as those who will not
:15:45. > :15:49.see. This was an issue... Do you mean the Unionists? The information
:15:50. > :15:54.was there and people knew the issue had been dealt with. It was
:15:55. > :16:00.publicised in the Edens Bradley report and through the policing
:16:01. > :16:07.board meetings. People refused to acknowledge that this was being
:16:08. > :16:09.handled and they are responsible for developing a climate of fear and
:16:10. > :16:14.mistrust. They have the responsibility of building the
:16:15. > :16:17.trust. The issue is misinformation. This is not an amnesty or immunity.
:16:18. > :16:20.These people sought clarification about whether or not it were wanted
:16:21. > :16:26.for questioning, regarding offences that happens stoically. The
:16:27. > :16:32.situation is, was and shall be that if information or evidence is
:16:33. > :16:35.produced were individuals may be wanted for questioning or may be
:16:36. > :16:40.brought before a Court in the future, that will still happen. So
:16:41. > :16:44.the climate of fear that was created was wrong and damaging. And we have
:16:45. > :16:51.a responsibility as a society to address that climate. Your party
:16:52. > :16:57.meter sport of these letters as jet -- spoke of these letters as get out
:16:58. > :17:01.of jail free cards. Did that contribute to the lack of trust?
:17:02. > :17:06.What we saw with the dispensing of letters of comfort or get out of
:17:07. > :17:13.jail free cards was nothing short of a corruption. But that is not what
:17:14. > :17:21.they were. It was a corruption of justice, a process kept secret from
:17:22. > :17:24.all of us. Except the Unionists. The very fact that Gerry Adams asked for
:17:25. > :17:30.a process to be put into place that it be invisible, and Gerry Kelly
:17:31. > :17:37.said that if the Unionists knew about it, it would cause crisis, it
:17:38. > :17:40.shows that we did not know about it. It was brought up with the policing
:17:41. > :17:45.board and you thought they were talking about something else? There
:17:46. > :17:49.was plenty of talk, and that can recall having worked from the party
:17:50. > :17:55.during the negotiations that led to devolution, and we were mindful of
:17:56. > :17:57.this. Way back when the Ulster Unionists were leading unionism,
:17:58. > :18:03.there was an attempt to deal with this legislatively and that fell and
:18:04. > :18:08.did not proceed. We were incredibly careful to ask at every stage,
:18:09. > :18:14.whether it was the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State, was there
:18:15. > :18:17.anything in terms of the scheme... And you always believe everything
:18:18. > :18:20.the Secretary of State tells you and the Prime Minister(!) The macro
:18:21. > :18:29.whenever the Secretary of State is asked in the House of Commons and he
:18:30. > :18:33.says that there was no amnesty, no other type of scheme, you have to
:18:34. > :18:38.take him at his word. We are where we are. How do you restore
:18:39. > :18:42.confidence? It is very hard to restore confidence for victims. What
:18:43. > :18:45.is happening in terms of three enquiries which will get to the
:18:46. > :18:49.truth, the fact that the police have come out and said that these letters
:18:50. > :18:55.have no standing and they will be re-examined, and everyone will be
:18:56. > :18:58.looked at again, that goes some way to ameliorating concerns of
:18:59. > :19:01.victims. I've understand why victims who perhaps never thought they would
:19:02. > :19:06.get justice anyway, when they see and hear what has been done, they
:19:07. > :19:11.will be traumatised again, and it will reopen old wounds. I think it
:19:12. > :19:15.is very bad political home work on the part of the Unionists to claim
:19:16. > :19:19.that they did not know anything about it. Because it is stated in
:19:20. > :19:24.that report that they were being dealt with. They ask simple
:19:25. > :19:27.questions, who, what, where, when the why and how. And they would have
:19:28. > :19:34.loved those answers. I think it is home work, bad research. There was
:19:35. > :19:38.an automatic assumption from the media and politicians that these
:19:39. > :19:48.people were guilty. They have not been convicted of anything. The
:19:49. > :19:55.gentleman here. You, Sir. Father was murdered in 1887. That afternoon,
:19:56. > :19:57.the Prime Minister promised no stone would be left unturned in the should
:19:58. > :20:02.of justice. The British government has gone full circle and let the
:20:03. > :20:05.victims down. They promised they would get us justice and they have
:20:06. > :20:12.let us down. Why should we have faith in what people are saying
:20:13. > :20:20.about the ordeal are two? We are trying to establish that. The First
:20:21. > :20:25.Minister was able to order five enquiries into the scandal. Does
:20:26. > :20:30.that leave it open for people like myself, who has been trying to get
:20:31. > :20:36.an enquiry into the collusion of police and farmers, one of whom
:20:37. > :20:46.murdered my brother. Can I get an enquiry? Can I get an enquiry into
:20:47. > :20:54.that? Do you accept, Conor Murray fee, that confidence has been
:20:55. > :21:02.damaged by this episode? Think it was a cynical exploits and --
:21:03. > :21:07.exportation of these people. Clearly, these were not amnesty is.
:21:08. > :21:12.That was apparent. I feel for the people who were wound up for a
:21:13. > :21:17.political purpose. The political purpose was to get unionism out of
:21:18. > :21:22.the Robert Hass process. They have worked away from the Haass Talks map
:21:23. > :21:30.until such times that the issue is sorted. If you get the letter, you
:21:31. > :21:32.get the letter, you're still not wanted for questioning. This
:21:33. > :21:39.nonsense about enquiries and looking at the letters again is nonsense.
:21:40. > :21:49.The process ended in failure for this. Lou macro -- the Haass process
:21:50. > :21:52.is still ongoing. The First Minister has done is stepped away from it. We
:21:53. > :21:59.cannot deal with these issues until the ODI issue is resolved. This was
:22:00. > :22:02.a cynical exercise to wind up victims and feel sorry for the
:22:03. > :22:11.victims who were hurt by it. They should not be hurt in this way. And
:22:12. > :22:21.we should do what the Haass Talks were spent -- meant to be doing. In
:22:22. > :22:25.2006 it was clear to me that there were two parties that were busting
:22:26. > :22:30.to get into government, into this assembly. One of them was Sinn Fein
:22:31. > :22:35.and the other was the DUP. A bill was put before Parliament in 2006
:22:36. > :22:43.that would have included dealing with the on the runs on the same
:22:44. > :22:47.basis as members of the security forces. Sinn Fein would have none of
:22:48. > :22:51.that. Anything that granted the same privileges to members of the
:22:52. > :22:54.security forces as to people who were involved in terrorism or were
:22:55. > :22:56.believed to be involved in terrorism was out for them. The British
:22:57. > :23:05.government was then forced, secretly, or semi-secretly, to
:23:06. > :23:10.introduce a methodology of providing Sinn Fein with what they wanted,
:23:11. > :23:16.some comfort about the future of the on the runs, but at the same time,
:23:17. > :23:20.the DUP, I believe, were guilty of wilful ignorance. They may not have
:23:21. > :23:29.known about it but the truth is, they did not wish to know about it.
:23:30. > :23:35.I will let you come back to that. Two main things that occurred to
:23:36. > :23:40.me. First of all, is your confidence damaged by it? Yes, in the sense
:23:41. > :23:46.that there are laws and there are people who make the laws, and when
:23:47. > :23:52.that line gets blurred, it does concern me. That things can be done
:23:53. > :23:56.above the law. How do you follow the judicial system? Peter Hain said
:23:57. > :23:57.this was part of the process of normalising the situation in
:23:58. > :24:04.Northern Ireland. The other thing that struck me is that it is another
:24:05. > :24:08.distraction away from progress. That is the way that I see it, and
:24:09. > :24:46.possibly in my naive way, can assure you all, I did not know
:24:47. > :24:50.about these letters. I suffer with Stephen every day of our lives.
:24:51. > :25:04.Because of what the IRA did. They robbed him of his father, brutally.
:25:05. > :25:09.And we need justice. I would like to ask,, Sinn Fein have been saying for
:25:10. > :25:12.a while but this process was open and transparent. If it was open and
:25:13. > :25:17.transparent, why was it not discussed with Haass? Why did he not
:25:18. > :25:21.know anything about it when he was there to discuss dealing with the
:25:22. > :25:24.past and victims two it has got to the stage from innocent victims that
:25:25. > :25:30.they are feeling that they are an embarrassment to the budget process.
:25:31. > :25:35.It is a disgrace. Conor Murphy, can you address that? Why was it not
:25:36. > :25:37.brought up? Haass was an open process. As far as we were
:25:38. > :25:42.concerned, the process run its course. It was apparent and on the
:25:43. > :25:49.agenda since 2001 or before that, and innocent victims, there are
:25:50. > :25:54.many. Many victims. I would be concerned about this attempt to
:25:55. > :25:58.categorise people as innocent or not innocent but there are people who
:25:59. > :26:01.were annoyed about this and they are entitled to be annoyed if that is
:26:02. > :26:05.how they feel. But there are many others who have never had the chance
:26:06. > :26:11.to have any enquiry into their loved ones. There are no police who are on
:26:12. > :26:13.the run, because when they were involved in killing people on the
:26:14. > :26:17.nationalistic unity, they were often rewarded or promoted for that. There
:26:18. > :26:21.are many victims in this and my final point, and during the first
:26:22. > :26:25.question, was that we need to get back to what's Haass was discussing,
:26:26. > :26:30.a process by which we deal of the legacy -- deal with the legacy
:26:31. > :26:34.issues of the past, the first of all the victims. To go back to the
:26:35. > :26:36.original point, and we re-establish confidence? The issue has been that
:26:37. > :26:42.we keep asking questions of victims, what do you want, what do we need to
:26:43. > :26:47.do to meet your needs? We get the answer and then we ignore the answer
:26:48. > :26:51.and we ask again. That is not good enough. Between the needs assessment
:26:52. > :26:54.carried out by the victims commission and the great and ongoing
:26:55. > :26:59.work being done by the Forum for victims and survivors, the Haass
:27:00. > :27:02.process, we keep asking the questions and we keep getting the
:27:03. > :27:07.same answers. And yet we do not deliver. The ball is in your Court
:27:08. > :27:11.and that of your colleagues. To say the DUP was not combernd a
:27:12. > :27:18.scheme like this is as ridiculous as it is to listen to Sinn Fein that
:27:19. > :27:21.they feel sorry for victims. The republican movements responsible for
:27:22. > :27:25.making more victims in Northern Ireland than any other organisation.
:27:26. > :27:32.It's ridiculous to suggest other things. It was a secret and
:27:33. > :27:38.invisible process at the request of Gerry Adams. The real people to be
:27:39. > :27:47.indicted are Blair and his sidekick Powell. Powell, to show you the
:27:48. > :27:52.decrepes and deceit, Powell in his biography admitted he drafted IRA
:27:53. > :27:56.communiques that were signed P O'Neill. He drafted them for the
:27:57. > :28:02.IRA. They should be in the dock. Thank you very much, indeed. We will
:28:03. > :28:07.have to move on. Vital topic though it is. Our next question. Josh is a
:28:08. > :28:11.student from Armagh. Josh. Are the consequences of not passing the
:28:12. > :28:19.Welfare Reform Bill a clear sign that Stormont has failed to deliver
:28:20. > :28:25.once again? Danny Alexander confirmed they will lose ?100
:28:26. > :28:32.million because of the failure to approve welfare reforms.
:28:33. > :28:38.Conor Murphy, you are the party which is stalling this in the
:28:39. > :28:43.Assembly. Why? At what cost? Well, the cost, if this is implement is
:28:44. > :28:47.?450 million to our economy. That is the loss you need to set against
:28:48. > :28:51.what the figures that have been banded about by Simon and others
:28:52. > :28:58.from the Treasury. We set our face against - Can I interrupt. Mr
:28:59. > :29:02.McCausland say it's not a loss. It's not money in people's pockets. It's
:29:03. > :29:06.a reassessment of money that would come to them. To say it's a ?450
:29:07. > :29:10.million loss is not accurate, he would say. You are happy to quote
:29:11. > :29:16.the number of operations that would be lost and hip replacements. I said
:29:17. > :29:19.Simon Hamilton said that. OK. The reality is, there will be a loss. If
:29:20. > :29:22.people lose benefits, that is money people are currently spending. If
:29:23. > :29:26.they lose benefits, that is a loss to the spending power in this
:29:27. > :29:31.economy. This is a Tory ideology which is to attack the most
:29:32. > :29:35.vulnerable in society to set their face against any hope or chance for
:29:36. > :29:38.those people, not only people on benefits, for the working poor as
:29:39. > :29:42.well. We have pledged to resist that. We have asked the DUP to stand
:29:43. > :29:45.with us. They expressed themselves as unhappy. They voted against some
:29:46. > :29:49.of that legislation in Westminster. They voted for the benefit cap last
:29:50. > :29:52.week in Westminster. We have said to them, stand with us and stand
:29:53. > :30:00.against what the Treasury are trying to impose. Will rise from ?5.5
:30:01. > :30:05.billion in 2012 to ?6. 3 billion. That is not a cut, that is an
:30:06. > :30:09.increase. People will lose. ?450 million is going out of our benefit.
:30:10. > :30:12.People will lose and force into a dire situation than they are. We
:30:13. > :30:15.have a responsibility as elected represent toifs try and protect the
:30:16. > :30:19.vulnerable in our society. We had some of those agreements with the
:30:20. > :30:23.DUP in relation to issues like water charges. When I was Minister for
:30:24. > :30:27.Regional Development I was told by Sam #yi8 Wilson and civil servants I
:30:28. > :30:32.would bankrupt the Executive ifive if I didn't bring in water charges.
:30:33. > :30:35.Five years later the Executive are spending more money than ever. We
:30:36. > :30:39.have the responsibility to stand up for the most vulnerable people in
:30:40. > :30:42.our society and protect them. We are not county treasurers for the
:30:43. > :30:46.Treasury over here or for the British government who disperse the
:30:47. > :30:50.money as they see fit. We are elected here, elected on programmes
:30:51. > :30:54.and responsibility to stand up for the people who elect us. Didn't
:30:55. > :30:59.agree with much of that? The basic principle is this. The citizens of
:31:00. > :31:02.Northern Ireland are citizens of the United Kingdom. There is a policy
:31:03. > :31:06.for the whole of the United Kingdom in order to recover from the dire
:31:07. > :31:12.financial situation that was left by Labour. To cut back on benefits
:31:13. > :31:18.across theual kingdom. What is the Treasury is saying, you cannot have
:31:19. > :31:22.the people on the mainland paying for enhanced benefits for the
:31:23. > :31:28.citizens of Northern Ireland. They just won't do it. It's cloud cuckoo
:31:29. > :31:32.land to think that they will ever agree to the people of Northern
:31:33. > :31:36.Ireland having greater benefits than their fellow citizens on the
:31:37. > :31:42.mainland. There is no doubt what ever it will cost up to ?250 million
:31:43. > :31:49.when the Treasury reclaims the money. They will. The second thing
:31:50. > :31:54.is, there are 1,500 jobs in the infrastructure of paying out
:31:55. > :32:03.benefits and assessing them. Those people in those jobs also work for
:32:04. > :32:08.part of the United Kingdom. If we do not accept the overall reforms,
:32:09. > :32:16.those people will lose their jobs. That's for sure. Secondly, as far as
:32:17. > :32:21.the necessary money to be invest in order to have a separate system,
:32:22. > :32:27.welfare system, will run into millions. The argument that they are
:32:28. > :32:34.losing ?450,000, Northern Ireland is losing ?450,000 is a joke. Patricia
:32:35. > :32:37.MacBride, Mr McCause lands said incentives should be a springboard
:32:38. > :32:43.not a trap. Is that what these reforms are trying to - has Stormont
:32:44. > :32:48.failed to deliver? Well, I think, you know, I'm in favour of welfare
:32:49. > :32:52.reform. I tell you the reform I'm in favour of. Why don't we spend the
:32:53. > :32:55.same amount of resources in trying to reach out to those people who are
:32:56. > :33:01.entitled to the hundreds of millions of benefits every year that go
:33:02. > :33:05.unclaimed. Why don't we do - let's do away with Working Tax Credit.
:33:06. > :33:09.Everybody should be earning a living wage where the Government doesn't
:33:10. > :33:12.have to bring them up to a minimum living standard. Don't have that.
:33:13. > :33:17.The type of welfare reform we need to look at. To provide the jobs and
:33:18. > :33:21.employment before you can do that? You get the big corporations to pay
:33:22. > :33:28.the taxes they should rightfully be telling that the domestic businesses
:33:29. > :33:32.are paying. Simple mathematics. This is not rocket science, it's back of
:33:33. > :33:37.the envelope stuff. You get that revenue in from the people who
:33:38. > :33:42.should be paying the taxes and give it those in need. That is the
:33:43. > :33:46.welfare we form you need to do here. Are we pushing ourselves down a
:33:47. > :33:51.route following legislation in Westminster that is not fit for
:33:52. > :33:53.purpose. It won't ever get enacted in Westminster the way things are
:33:54. > :33:57.going at the moment. I think we need to look - It's already enacted of
:33:58. > :34:04.course. That's the problem for Stormont. It's already enacted. We
:34:05. > :34:09.are either United Kingdom citizens or not. Mark, you were born in
:34:10. > :34:15.Bangor you spent your working life in Manchester. When you look at
:34:16. > :34:19.here, we have one in ten of working-age adults on Incapacity
:34:20. > :34:25.Benefit, one in ten of working-age adults on DLA. Way higher, almost
:34:26. > :34:31.twice the DLA percentage than the UK average, what do you think? I'd like
:34:32. > :34:36.to know why. I have lots of friends who studied here. They work in
:34:37. > :34:40.hospitals and GP practices and I've asked a few of them why that is. One
:34:41. > :34:45.of my GP friends also told me that in Northern Ireland there is a
:34:46. > :34:52.higher percentage of people on sedatives which he felt was possibly
:34:53. > :34:56.hangover from the troubl past. There are unique problems associated with
:34:57. > :35:00.Northern Ireland. I have to agree with what Patricia has said. Why are
:35:01. > :35:05.we looking to claw money back from the people who have the least.
:35:06. > :35:09.It's... You know, we get into this financial situation through the over
:35:10. > :35:13.spend of big businesses and banks. Yet, the people who have the least
:35:14. > :35:18.are being asked to pay for it when yet huge, huge bills of tax are not
:35:19. > :35:23.being paid. I'm seeing it on the frontline. I moved from A to GP.
:35:24. > :35:27.I'm seeing vulnerable people coming in, having their benefits cut,
:35:28. > :35:33.having their benefits reduced. How low can they go? They can't go any
:35:34. > :35:40.further. The gentleman in the row. Sir, I'm totally at the end of my
:35:41. > :35:43.rope about us the, the working-class people, being held responsible for
:35:44. > :35:48.the greedy fat cat bankers and the money they sfroel our economy and
:35:49. > :35:56.the money that the Government has put in to raise them up while they
:35:57. > :36:00.are still getting multi-billion pound bonuses across the board. We
:36:01. > :36:04.are being told day in and day outousous is good for everybody
:36:05. > :36:09.except for those people. I find it very hard every day to bring home
:36:10. > :36:14.money to feed my wife and my kids and I'm sure serve the same way. To
:36:15. > :36:17.be told we have to take our own part in austerity. It's all the same
:36:18. > :36:20.thing. Would you like to see Stormont make it happen? You
:36:21. > :36:24.wouldn't tliebg see that. They have to do something, that is the point?
:36:25. > :36:27.If Stormont would stop arguing against each other and working
:36:28. > :36:32.together on the facts, then we will be able to get something down in
:36:33. > :36:37.this country. All right, lady in the back row. I know people... I know
:36:38. > :36:41.some people are worried about the cost of the health service if
:36:42. > :36:47.welfare reform is not implemented. I would be worried to the cost to
:36:48. > :36:51.society in general if it is implemented for fact. We are looking
:36:52. > :36:55.at a budget where 26% of it is spend keeping people in employment with
:36:56. > :37:00.working tax credits. In some cases the profit margins those companies
:37:01. > :37:04.are working away with is laughable. There are 2.6% spent on those
:37:05. > :37:09.getting unemployment-related benefits we need to look at why we
:37:10. > :37:14.have a welfare system. Our Government is failing to deliver.
:37:15. > :37:19.The gentleman here. Lady in my cab was a family support worker. She was
:37:20. > :37:24.getting paid off on Friday night. There were 48 of them going. I said,
:37:25. > :37:28.surely that will be on the news. 50 people were getting paid off. She
:37:29. > :37:33.said, no, you will never hear about it on the news. I said, I can't
:37:34. > :37:36.understand that. The cuts are happening now under stealth, is this
:37:37. > :37:41.is what is happening? We are not hearing about these cuts? 48. We
:37:42. > :37:45.heard about it now. If they are watching this programme. We will
:37:46. > :37:48.maybe follow that up. You said that the bedroom tax would hit Northern
:37:49. > :37:53.Ireland disproportionately hard. You are pressing everyone to get on with
:37:54. > :37:58.implementing it? Can I go back a little bit. Over this decade. To the
:37:59. > :38:03.end of 2020, welfare expenditure in Northern Ireland will increase by
:38:04. > :38:08.?1.4 billion. Whenever I hear people say we should simply trapes off to
:38:09. > :38:12.Downing Street, bang on the door of Number Eleven and ask the Chancellor
:38:13. > :38:17.to give us more money to pay for this and that, as part of the United
:38:18. > :38:21.Kingdom we are getting ?10 billion from Westminster every single year
:38:22. > :38:27.to keep this place running. And, look, there are lots of bits
:38:28. > :38:32.including the bedroom tax about the Welfare Reform Bill I'm not overly
:38:33. > :38:38.enamored with. That is why we did try to work together. We had
:38:39. > :38:41.agreement with Sinn Fein a year ago, the Deputy First Minister agreed to
:38:42. > :38:44.a deal that would see the bedroom tax actually not affect people here
:38:45. > :38:49.in Northern Ireland. We had that agreed. We had other flexibilities
:38:50. > :38:52.and exemptions to the Welfare Reform Bill that meant people in Northern
:38:53. > :38:55.Ireland would benefit in a way that their counterparts in England,
:38:56. > :38:59.Scotland and Wales wouldn't benefit from. Because of an utter lack of
:39:00. > :39:02.leadership from Sinn Fein on this issue. We are facing a situation
:39:03. > :39:05.where very vulnerable people in Northern Ireland are going to
:39:06. > :39:09.suffer. If we have to take the reductions of ?100 million next
:39:10. > :39:12.year, rising and rising all the time to the point where over the next
:39:13. > :39:23.five years - Still less than the ?400 million that would go at one
:39:24. > :39:30.fell swoop if you enacts ed. -- enacted the welfare reforms. It goes
:39:31. > :39:36.up and now. The quantum it goes up will be less with welfare reform
:39:37. > :39:40.rather than without. If this is impacting in terms of cuts of some
:39:41. > :39:47.?70 million next year to our health budget, that isn't hip operations or
:39:48. > :39:51.knee operations or care or hours in nursing homes for elderly people.
:39:52. > :39:53.Vulnerable people, people who are vulnerable will suffer. People who
:39:54. > :39:58.aren't vulnerable will be made vulnerable. You have been challenged
:39:59. > :40:06.to put on paper what it is you would agree to. What would you agree to?
:40:07. > :40:12.They have already agreed. No we haven't. Let him answer. Can I make
:40:13. > :40:16.this point. Simon challenged me. The DUP told the British Government they
:40:17. > :40:19.are satisfied with what you got. How do you negotiate with someone who
:40:20. > :40:26.you told you are stats satisfied with what you have got. We said
:40:27. > :40:31.there is work to be done. What? Hurry along, time is short. You give
:40:32. > :40:34.plenty of time to others. The bedroom tax issue isn't resolved.
:40:35. > :40:38.There is a relief on the bedroom tax which we are paying out of the
:40:39. > :40:43.executive budget for people currently on it, not for people who
:40:44. > :40:47.may end up on it. It's not resolved. We want to get the best deal. The
:40:48. > :40:51.best way to do that is by standing together not by playing the blame
:40:52. > :40:56.game until relation to that. That is your second answer. Everyone else
:40:57. > :40:59.had one. No, we will move on. We never solve any of these, but we do
:41:00. > :41:09.raise them. Our next question: When will Northern Ireland stop
:41:10. > :41:14.moving into the dark ages when it comes to the issues that are having
:41:15. > :41:18.an impact on the gay community? I assumed that uppermost in Europe
:41:19. > :41:22.nine will be the fact that same-sex marriage became legal in England and
:41:23. > :41:25.Wales on Friday. Scotland are expecting their first marriage later
:41:26. > :41:30.in the year but no plans in Northern Ireland. Is that the dark ages?
:41:31. > :41:38.Using language like the dark ages is not particularly helpful. This is an
:41:39. > :41:41.issue which is the responsibility of the assembly. The assembly has
:41:42. > :41:47.spoken on this issue twice. The second time they took a decision on
:41:48. > :41:50.this issue, the majority were against introducing same-sex
:41:51. > :41:56.marriage. Have you not twice tabled a petition of concern? No. Votes
:41:57. > :42:01.were not blocked. The petition of concern went down. It was not
:42:02. > :42:07.necessary in the end because a majority rejected the proposals that
:42:08. > :42:11.were put forward. To go back to the point about the dark ages, think we
:42:12. > :42:15.need to tone down the language. We need to be respectful of
:42:16. > :42:19.everybody's views. We need to do except that there are good people
:42:20. > :42:24.who disagree on this thing. -- we need to accept. I was brought up
:42:25. > :42:30.to... Let me stop you there because Ian Paisley Junior talked about
:42:31. > :42:33.being proposed by homosexuality. Iris Robinson said it was an
:42:34. > :42:38.abomination. Another member said the same, and he said his words were
:42:39. > :42:43.taken out of context. You have selected a couple of colleagues of
:42:44. > :42:48.mine. There could be other views. Reducing your colleagues. There are
:42:49. > :42:50.other people on the other side of the argument to have used equally
:42:51. > :42:56.inflammatory language from time to time. What is your belief? The macro
:42:57. > :43:00.I oppose the introduction of same-sex marriage in Northern
:43:01. > :43:04.Ireland. I have spoken publicly on that. I was brought up to understand
:43:05. > :43:08.that tolerance was about accepting that other people had different
:43:09. > :43:11.views to you but accepting that they have those different views. What
:43:12. > :43:17.seems to be the case now in Northern Ireland as it is across the world is
:43:18. > :43:23.that if you do not... If you do not actually accept other people's views
:43:24. > :43:27.then you are intolerant. That is... Nobody is asking you to actually
:43:28. > :43:34.have a gay marriage. It is not compulsory! Let those who want to do
:43:35. > :43:38.it get on with it. Idea say my wife would have something to say about
:43:39. > :43:45.it. I do not think even those comments are particularly helpful. I
:43:46. > :43:48.think we have two except... We have to define tolerance. People choose
:43:49. > :43:54.different lifestyles. They want to do things differently. I am in
:43:55. > :43:57.accepting of people and their rights to choose whatever lifestyle they
:43:58. > :44:00.want. Think people should be free from prejudice, and I think we
:44:01. > :44:06.should also bear in mind that there are people who take for many
:44:07. > :44:12.reasons, an opposing view. And we should be respectful of that fact.
:44:13. > :44:18.These are not... So respectful but he will stop same-sex marriage? It
:44:19. > :44:21.is the democratic right of the assembly to take that position. I
:44:22. > :44:30.hope we're not saying that we should remove that democratic right from
:44:31. > :44:37.our assembly? Mark? With Northern Ireland being part of the UK, why
:44:38. > :44:40.not be with the UK on this point? I don't see what the issue is.
:44:41. > :44:47.Understand from a religious background that there are teachings
:44:48. > :44:50.in what you choose to read about marriage and this that and the
:44:51. > :44:53.other. In the Bible, there are different versions of marriage.
:44:54. > :45:02.Solomon had hundreds of wives, as did David. And actually gay marriage
:45:03. > :45:07.was not outlawed until 1971. These issues... I'm sure there are people
:45:08. > :45:12.in the audience who will give us biblical quotes. The thing about
:45:13. > :45:16.democracy, the rough guess is that one in ten people are homosexual.
:45:17. > :45:21.You cannot have a democratic vote in that sense. If the majority said,
:45:22. > :45:24.then you cannot have your way. It is not a minority issue that do not see
:45:25. > :45:28.how that application of the democratic process can apply in this
:45:29. > :45:32.case when generally, I'd just do not see what is wrong with that. Why do
:45:33. > :45:38.not see what the big deal is. You do not have to get married to a man if
:45:39. > :45:42.you do not want to. Simply, it is up rights issue. Simon and the people
:45:43. > :45:45.who've bought this issue being progressed say that people can have
:45:46. > :45:47.a lifestyle they choose, but they cannot have the rights that other
:45:48. > :45:56.people have stop it cannot have the legal protection of a marriage. So
:45:57. > :46:04.if... That is not accurate. It is not true. Then why deny it? The
:46:05. > :46:10.human rights commission, which my party are not used to courting, says
:46:11. > :46:15.that there is no human rights issue. They say that nobody has been denied
:46:16. > :46:20.rights in Northern Ireland. The do not have a legal marriage rights.
:46:21. > :46:24.They can have a civil union, but in that case, why does everybody else
:46:25. > :46:28.not have a civil union? Let everyone else have one. It is an equality
:46:29. > :46:31.issue. Back to the previous issue, part of the lack of confidence in
:46:32. > :46:36.the health service is that the Health Minister chooses to pursue
:46:37. > :46:42.these issues rather than looking at the health service. Gay blood
:46:43. > :46:50.donation issues, these are the issues he is fixated on, rather than
:46:51. > :46:53.looking after A The DUP has a difficulty with this rights issue.
:46:54. > :46:58.It should be respected. It is not enough to respect people's lifestyle
:46:59. > :47:02.choices and then deny them rights. I had never seen the real difference
:47:03. > :47:09.between same-sex marriage and a civil partnership. Basically, they
:47:10. > :47:16.are the same. But think the point is in a clueless society, gay people
:47:17. > :47:23.wanted the right to have a marriage. What ever that may be defined as, so
:47:24. > :47:27.that they may be equal with heterosexuals who can have that
:47:28. > :47:31.marriage. Earlier on, on the welfare debate, I argued that if you were a
:47:32. > :47:35.member of the United Kingdom, a citizen of the United Kingdom, you
:47:36. > :47:39.have the ups and downs. By belonging to the United Kingdom. The mainland
:47:40. > :47:45.United Kingdom has decided that the should be same-sex marriage. I have
:47:46. > :47:49.great difficulty being a plug a list, and believing that there are
:47:50. > :47:55.many things which I'd disagree with, but I am not prepared to put
:47:56. > :48:00.them down. If you do not believe in gay marriage, then do not have a gay
:48:01. > :48:06.marriage. There are some homosexuals who are against this argument. But
:48:07. > :48:12.the basic thing is, what does it matter what these people do if they
:48:13. > :48:17.are not breaking the law? And A+ for gay marriage, it has been argued
:48:18. > :48:24.with some force that the effect of having a gay marriage gives a
:48:25. > :48:34.stability and an authenticity to the relationship which tends to make it
:48:35. > :48:41.longer and more permanent. We need to remember that this is an old
:48:42. > :48:44.issue. We have homosexuality, who are in a minority, try to enforce
:48:45. > :48:50.their will on the majority in this country. The government is enforcing
:48:51. > :48:54.it. As a young Christian, I often find that when we speak out for the
:48:55. > :48:59.biblical stance on marriage, we are branded as bigots or as fascists.
:49:00. > :49:06.And we cannot stand up for our beliefs because we are persecuted
:49:07. > :49:09.and victimised. The lady here. I would like to say that whenever two
:49:10. > :49:13.people decide they want to be married, whether they are of the
:49:14. > :49:16.same sex or different sex, they do not do that for a political reason
:49:17. > :49:20.or a religious reason. They do that because they are in love. Who are
:49:21. > :49:27.politicians to stand in the way of that? I think the issue is much
:49:28. > :49:33.bigger than the issue of gay marriage itself. It goes to the
:49:34. > :49:37.issue that Conor raised around equal rights and adoption. This is an
:49:38. > :49:40.equality issue. The reality is that the assembly, if you will, needs to
:49:41. > :49:47.examine its consciousness. They need to say, how is it that if I'd give
:49:48. > :49:52.equal rights to someone else, it demeans mine? It does not do that.
:49:53. > :49:55.We need to look at ways that we can ensure that we address all minority
:49:56. > :50:02.rights. The gentleman here spoke about homosexual amenities being a
:50:03. > :50:05.minority. So are survivors of the conflict and people with
:50:06. > :50:12.disabilities but we try to protect their rights and promote them. We
:50:13. > :50:14.have the same duty of care to everybody, to every citizen,
:50:15. > :50:22.regardless of how they identify themselves. We must move on. The
:50:23. > :50:28.next question is from Charlotte O'Hara, a music teacher from County
:50:29. > :50:31.Antrim. Would a visit from the Pope to Belfast show how far we have
:50:32. > :50:39.progressed since the Good Friday agreement? I can tell you expose a
:50:40. > :50:43.plea that Belfast City Council voted 34-0 in favour of inviting the book
:50:44. > :50:45.to Belfast if he accepts the invitation. Unionists abstained in
:50:46. > :50:51.the vote and the motion said that Belfast should welcome the Pope as a
:50:52. > :50:57.man of peace, reconciliation and faith. What do you think, Bob
:50:58. > :51:04.McCartney? Frankly, it is a good idea. If the Pope wants to visit,
:51:05. > :51:14.why shouldn't he? In Northern Ireland, we suffer from the residue
:51:15. > :51:17.of our past, including things like a 1912 home rule is Rome rule thing.
:51:18. > :51:23.There was a lot of substance to that argument in 1912. But it does not
:51:24. > :51:30.exist in any significant or substantial way at present. The
:51:31. > :51:42.whole political landscape, the religious landscape has changed. And
:51:43. > :51:46.I believe we should mirror that. Patricia? The interesting thing
:51:47. > :51:51.about an invitation being accepted would be actually looking at the
:51:52. > :51:54.number of MLAs and City Council officials who would be lining up for
:51:55. > :52:00.a selfie with him, because that appears to be one of the key things
:52:01. > :52:03.that we see across Twitter and the internet. I think we could see an
:52:04. > :52:07.ever delicate that. It is utterly wonderful. I think the fact that
:52:08. > :52:13.there is a substantial catholic community here and people who have
:52:14. > :52:16.various degrees of compliance with their faith and as he runs to the
:52:17. > :52:22.faith, but I think for that community, it would be a
:52:23. > :52:25.reinforcement of the importance of their faith, especially when you
:52:26. > :52:30.look at the fact that the previous papal visit to Ireland in 1979, the
:52:31. > :52:37.visit to Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital, was cancelled all stop and
:52:38. > :52:44.that was held instead elsewhere. For the Catholic community, it could be
:52:45. > :52:49.a positive thing. Anything that creates cohesion is positive. Would
:52:50. > :52:53.it have shown more evidence of progress if the Unionists had been
:52:54. > :52:59.able to say, yes, bring it on? I think the new Pope is an impressive
:53:00. > :53:05.character. I think he is a breath of fresh air in a traditionally stuffy
:53:06. > :53:09.office. There's a bit of an issue with were at the invitation has come
:53:10. > :53:14.from. It wasn't invitation from the Irish Senate to come to Northern
:53:15. > :53:17.Ireland. -- it was an invitation. It is like me inviting everybody back
:53:18. > :53:24.to your house later on for a party. Not a bad idea! There seems to be
:53:25. > :53:26.some support for that. I think that we have made tremendous progress in
:53:27. > :53:30.Northern Ireland over the last few years and whilst we disagree on many
:53:31. > :53:34.things and will have those stats openly, we have made progress and we
:53:35. > :53:37.are further on today and we were ten or 20 years ago. Think we should
:53:38. > :53:43.celebrate that and I think if you... I think it was Senator David
:53:44. > :53:47.Norris who invited Pope Francis to visit Ireland, not Northern Ireland.
:53:48. > :53:54.The macro probably for electoral purposes. So we should be accurate
:53:55. > :53:59.in that. Would you go to see him? To finish my point, I think we have
:54:00. > :54:01.made poor this progress. -- tremendous progress. I think the way
:54:02. > :54:07.we have dealt with the commemorations of a -- and centenary
:54:08. > :54:14.is, that has shown the progress we have made. We have to be sensitive
:54:15. > :54:19.to the sensitivities that are still out there. We do not want to do
:54:20. > :54:23.anything that would see us step backwards and progress in terms of
:54:24. > :54:28.the progress we have made. But it is something that will have to be
:54:29. > :54:33.considered. He may have been invited but I'm not sure if he has accepted
:54:34. > :54:41.the invitation. Would you be posing for a selfie? I would probably put
:54:42. > :54:43.my thumb over the lens and ruin it! The Ulster Unionist councillor said
:54:44. > :54:48.he was not against the Pope but there was hatred, mistrust and
:54:49. > :54:52.unrest. He said at this moment in time, he should not go to Belfast.
:54:53. > :54:56.Is that a reasonable view? Not really. Those people accept that it
:54:57. > :55:01.was unreasonable. Belfast City Council took the decision, a good
:55:02. > :55:05.decision. Even those who did not bring themselves to support, it was
:55:06. > :55:10.a good decision by all involved not to oppose it. It is all about taking
:55:11. > :55:14.steps. It is not just about the Catholic community although I'm
:55:15. > :55:17.interested in David Norris, the conservative Catholic vote for the
:55:18. > :55:21.Senate. Do not think it is going to work for him. This is not just about
:55:22. > :55:26.the Catholic unity. It is about a general feeling that steps can be
:55:27. > :55:32.taken. Martin McGuinness met with the Queen and the Pope was invited
:55:33. > :55:35.to Belfast. Think it is a sign... Only after Sinn Fein totally
:55:36. > :55:46.misjudged the public mood around the Queen's visit. That is your mood. --
:55:47. > :55:53.that is your judgement. The two checked shirts. I think it is great
:55:54. > :55:55.that the papal visit has been embraced by the council this evening
:55:56. > :56:01.but I think it is worrying that Unionists were not fully embracing
:56:02. > :56:05.of the visit in itself. I think it is a mark of reconciliation that the
:56:06. > :56:11.papal visit can be a success but can it be a success? The macro I think
:56:12. > :56:16.it is good that the new Pope has been able to sort out the
:56:17. > :56:22.paedophiles. I would welcome him. But the problem with him coming here
:56:23. > :56:25.is that St Patrick's Day, when you look at that, able from the
:56:26. > :56:29.Protestant immunity going to see the Pope, there is too much trouble
:56:30. > :56:35.brought into the streets. Celebrating the patron saint of the
:56:36. > :56:41.island. Families come, and some of them with cohesion. So you would be
:56:42. > :56:46.with Jim Rogers that there is too much mistrust? Yes. I think I would
:56:47. > :56:50.question the motives of the Unionists are stealing from the
:56:51. > :56:54.vote. Remember, this is an election year so they do not want to distance
:56:55. > :57:00.themselves from the community. They might be privately embracing it but
:57:01. > :57:05.not in public. The gentleman at the front he met I have no problem with
:57:06. > :57:09.the Pope coming here but remember the G8 Summit. Who would pick up the
:57:10. > :57:13.bill? I would think it would be astronomical compared to the G8
:57:14. > :57:18.Summit? That is another question we will not get tonight but Mark, your
:57:19. > :57:20.views? Everything that happens in Northern Ireland has symbolism
:57:21. > :57:30.attached to it. It is a positive step, yes. It reflects tolerance and
:57:31. > :57:36.progress. Of course, and do not think everybody will be holding up
:57:37. > :57:39.their hands and the abstention this evening has reflected that. Even if
:57:40. > :57:45.it is a little bit of progress, it is still progress. I'd macro and
:57:46. > :57:53.would you go for a selfie? I am friends with everybody! That is why
:57:54. > :58:01.we invited you here. That is the other side of the coin. Charlotte,
:58:02. > :58:05.bodies think? -- what do you think? It is important to say that it would
:58:06. > :58:10.not just be for the catholic amenity. It is sad that the
:58:11. > :58:13.Unionists abstained and I think that the fact that the majority in
:58:14. > :58:18.Belfast council have voted for it is a good sign. And you very much,
:58:19. > :58:22.Charlotte O'Hara from County Antrim. And we have other questions but as
:58:23. > :58:26.always, we have run out of time. We must leave it there for this
:58:27. > :58:30.edition. Thank you to our panellists and to our studio audience. And of
:58:31. > :58:34.course to you at home. Continue the debate with the hashtag on the
:58:35. > :58:39.screen now Mobot from the team, until next time, goodbye. -- but
:58:40. > :58:44.from the team.