0:00:02 > 0:00:09This programme contains scenes of Repetitive Flashing Images
0:00:16 > 0:00:19From selling peace, to a police cell -
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Gerry Adams's arrest in connection with IRA membership
0:00:22 > 0:00:24and the murder of Jean McConville
0:00:24 > 0:00:26made headlines across the world.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29In Northern Ireland, police are questioning Gerry Adams.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32Gerry Adams is one of the most, if not THE most,
0:00:32 > 0:00:34powerful Catholic politician in Northern Ireland.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37The arrest of Adams is an acutely sensitive matter.
0:00:37 > 0:00:41The dramatic arrest took Irish America by surprise.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44I have lived and worked as a journalist here for ten years
0:00:44 > 0:00:47and there has been no story from Northern Ireland
0:00:47 > 0:00:49that comes remotely close to this scale.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51We ain't going away, you know!
0:00:53 > 0:00:56Republican anger has been loud and clear -
0:00:56 > 0:00:59their dissatisfaction writ large
0:00:59 > 0:01:03as their leader languished in a holding cell.
0:01:03 > 0:01:04I was allowed in to see Mr Adams.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08He believes that the timing of this was political,
0:01:08 > 0:01:10that the extension of it was political.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13He's worried about the damage it might be doing
0:01:13 > 0:01:15to the image of policing, as well.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17What I'm saying is, folks,
0:01:17 > 0:01:19is that the situation we find ourselves in at the minute
0:01:19 > 0:01:22is a very, very, VERY serious situation indeed.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28A leading Republican facing a lengthy police interrogation,
0:01:28 > 0:01:31his supporters attending rallies on the Falls Road,
0:01:31 > 0:01:33and his colleagues claiming the existence
0:01:33 > 0:01:36of a dark cabal within the police.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40People are very, very angry and very suspicious about this whole process.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43It all began with an academic oral history project
0:01:43 > 0:01:46to record the reality of a conflict.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49Has it now started to threaten the institutions
0:01:49 > 0:01:51which have delivered peace?
0:01:51 > 0:01:55I ultimately was involved in a project which left me
0:01:55 > 0:02:00unable to protect my sources
0:02:00 > 0:02:05from the wrath and the vindictiveness of the British authorities.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08I regret it because many people have been arrested,
0:02:08 > 0:02:09including Mr Adams.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11Tonight on Spotlight,
0:02:11 > 0:02:13how an academic oral history project
0:02:13 > 0:02:16shattered the IRA's code of silence
0:02:16 > 0:02:20and what it could still mean for the political process here.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27As the world waited to see if Gerry Adams would be charged,
0:02:27 > 0:02:31this man, Anthony McIntyre, was at the eye of a storm,
0:02:31 > 0:02:33a storm that has been brewing
0:02:33 > 0:02:35ever since the controversial interviews he conducted
0:02:35 > 0:02:39with former IRA members and others for an academic research project
0:02:39 > 0:02:43came into the hands of the PSNI.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47Even though Gerry Adams has now been released,
0:02:47 > 0:02:50Anthony McIntyre says he's horrified at what's happened.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55I was dismayed when Gerry Adams was arrested,
0:02:55 > 0:02:58but I have been dismayed when everybody was arrested.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00You feel that awful sensation in the pit of your stomach.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04How do you feel when you see the information you gathered,
0:03:04 > 0:03:07you thought was confidential,
0:03:07 > 0:03:11is now being used potentially to prosecute people?
0:03:11 > 0:03:13Shafted, screwed.
0:03:13 > 0:03:15I feel very bad about it
0:03:15 > 0:03:18and it's something I will have to live with for the rest of my days.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25It all began over a dinner at Deane's Restaurant in Belfast
0:03:25 > 0:03:26in the year 2000.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29A Boston College representative met McIntyre
0:03:29 > 0:03:32and journalist Ed Moloney to discuss the feasibility
0:03:32 > 0:03:36of an oral history project recording the experiences
0:03:36 > 0:03:38of former participants in The Troubles.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40As a former IRA man himself,
0:03:40 > 0:03:43McIntyre was seen as being ideally placed
0:03:43 > 0:03:47to conduct interviews with people who had once been his comrades.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51But he says that he and Ed Moloney immediately saw an issue
0:03:51 > 0:03:54with the project that would have to be overcome.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57We told him it would have to be absolute guarantees,
0:03:57 > 0:03:59no maybes or ifs,
0:03:59 > 0:04:02that there would have to be a firewall
0:04:02 > 0:04:06against any access by the British State.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10Anthony McIntyre says that when he began interviewing a year later,
0:04:10 > 0:04:13he was under the impression that Boston College
0:04:13 > 0:04:17had taken legal advice, and that such a guarantee was in place.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20Spotlight has also spoken to Ed Moloney.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25His belief that Boston College had carried out legal checks
0:04:25 > 0:04:29is based partly on this e-mail exchange between Moloney
0:04:29 > 0:04:32and a Boston College representative, in which Moloney suggests
0:04:32 > 0:04:35that the agreements with interviewees be referred
0:04:35 > 0:04:37to the university's lawyers.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41Ed Moloney says he was told in a subsequent phone call
0:04:41 > 0:04:42that this had been done.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45In fact, under American law, it would be impossible
0:04:45 > 0:04:48to guarantee protection of the tapes.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52Niall Stanage is an Irish journalist based in Washington.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56There have been at least two Supreme Court cases in this country,
0:04:56 > 0:05:01where the court has found that the State or the authorities
0:05:01 > 0:05:08can have legitimate reasons to ask reporters or researchers
0:05:08 > 0:05:10to break promises of confidentiality.
0:05:10 > 0:05:14And so there is not some 100% guarantee,
0:05:14 > 0:05:16despite what people sometimes think,
0:05:16 > 0:05:18that those promises can be kept
0:05:18 > 0:05:21under absolutely all possible circumstances.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26But Boston College says no guarantee was ever given to McIntyre,
0:05:26 > 0:05:30or the project director, Ed Moloney.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36I spoke to Jack Dunn, a spokesman for the college.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38He didn't want to speak on camera,
0:05:38 > 0:05:41but he did agree to a phone interview.
0:05:41 > 0:05:46Is it the case, Mr Dunn, that Ed Moloney and Anthony McIntyre
0:05:46 > 0:05:50were given a guarantee by Boston College
0:05:50 > 0:05:54that the interviews would be protected, would be confidential
0:05:54 > 0:05:57and would be legally fireproofed?
0:06:20 > 0:06:25Both Anthony McIntyre and Ed Moloney fiercely dispute this claim.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28Ed Moloney accepts that his own contract for the work
0:06:28 > 0:06:31contained the caveat about American law.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34But both McIntyre and Moloney say that, by the time they were
0:06:34 > 0:06:37asking interviewees to sign consent forms,
0:06:37 > 0:06:39they believed that there were no legal caveats,
0:06:39 > 0:06:43and that the risk had been dealt with by the College's lawyers.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47So, on the consent forms that these people signed,
0:06:47 > 0:06:49what guarantees did they give the people who took part?
0:06:49 > 0:06:52That these would remain confidential until after their death,
0:06:52 > 0:06:55that the ultimate control of release would lie with me,
0:06:55 > 0:06:57and me being the person that done the interview,
0:06:57 > 0:07:01give the interview, the interviewee, that's what it stated.
0:07:01 > 0:07:02So, you were given guarantees
0:07:02 > 0:07:05that this information would be confidential?
0:07:05 > 0:07:08They were quite insistent about this all of the time.
0:07:08 > 0:07:10Boston College were very insistent.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12It was metaphorically suicidal for me
0:07:12 > 0:07:15to have proceeded with a project
0:07:15 > 0:07:19that I did not understand was totally protected.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22It would have been absolute madness.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26The subjects were promised by Anthony McIntyre
0:07:26 > 0:07:30that their interviews would only be released after their deaths,
0:07:30 > 0:07:33and they signed forms to that effect.
0:07:33 > 0:07:3726 Republicans were interviewed along with 14 UVF members
0:07:37 > 0:07:41and one person described as coming from law enforcement.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51McIntyre hasn't revealed the identities of anyone he interviewed.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55But for the first time, he has admitted that he too
0:07:55 > 0:07:58has been interviewed as part of the project,
0:07:58 > 0:08:01discussing his own IRA career.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05I was interviewed by an academic of equivalent standing
0:08:05 > 0:08:08and my interviews are in Boston College too.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12So, you were one of the people interviewed for this project?
0:08:12 > 0:08:16I am. Well, not the tapes that have been handed over,
0:08:16 > 0:08:20but I am in the archive, I am one of the people who was interviewed, yes.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23So, there is a tape there, there is material in the archive
0:08:23 > 0:08:28relating to your testimony about your own IRA career?
0:08:28 > 0:08:31I am on tape. I am saying no more.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33I won't go into any detail or give any inclination,
0:08:33 > 0:08:35but I exposed myself to the exact same risks
0:08:35 > 0:08:37as anybody else was exposed to.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40I did not lead people into a project
0:08:40 > 0:08:44that I wasn't prepared to take the same degree of exposure.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46Why would I put my own interviews in Boston College
0:08:46 > 0:08:49if I thought the police were going to maybe, at some point,
0:08:49 > 0:08:50look at them for to prosecute me?
0:08:50 > 0:08:52Self interest alone would have prevented me.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56The interviews McIntyre conducted with others
0:08:56 > 0:08:59were frank, detailed, and, in some cases,
0:08:59 > 0:09:01discussed particular events.
0:09:01 > 0:09:06One of those events was the 1972 murder of Jean McConville -
0:09:06 > 0:09:08something that has come to haunt Republicans.
0:09:10 > 0:09:15I think you would have to have a heart of stone to not have sympathy.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19For anyone from a Republican perspective,
0:09:19 > 0:09:22it's something that shames us all.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25I was born after Jean McConville was killed.
0:09:25 > 0:09:30People can, in a sense, understand that, during wars,
0:09:30 > 0:09:34terrible things happen and innocents are killed.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36But I find it shameful that Republicans
0:09:36 > 0:09:40were engaged in that activity of disappearing
0:09:40 > 0:09:43and burying people without informing their family.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46The reason that Jean McConville featured so much was that
0:09:46 > 0:09:49during discussions with people, many people,
0:09:49 > 0:09:53we would have discussed that the IRA had a very dark side to it,
0:09:53 > 0:09:56and that dark side manifested itself in war crimes.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59And Jean McConville was a war crime.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01There is simply no getting away from it.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04The secret grave is the universal calling card of the war criminal.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09But it wasn't just Anthony McIntyre who was
0:10:09 > 0:10:12interested in the Jean McConville murder.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15So too were the PSNI.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19Her body had been discovered in 2003 on a beach in County Louth.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22In some of the interviews he conducted,
0:10:22 > 0:10:25Anthony McIntyre was uncovering information that appeared
0:10:25 > 0:10:27to be pertinent to that investigation.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34One of those interviews was with veteran Republican Brendan Hughes,
0:10:34 > 0:10:39who told McIntyre that the man who ordered the killing was Gerry Adams.
0:11:18 > 0:11:20Even though the existence of the Boston College Archive
0:11:20 > 0:11:22was becoming more widely known,
0:11:22 > 0:11:26it wasn't until the publication of a book by Ed Moloney in 2010,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29featuring the testimony of Brendan Hughes,
0:11:29 > 0:11:31that it gained broader attention.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34This is the book that was published after his death
0:11:34 > 0:11:37based on the transcripts of his interviews.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40And the preface of the book says that it represents
0:11:40 > 0:11:44the "inaugural volume of a planned series of publications
0:11:44 > 0:11:47"drawn from the Boston College Oral History Archive."
0:11:47 > 0:11:51So, if the PSNI didn't know that there was an archive out there
0:11:51 > 0:11:53with potentially relevant information
0:11:53 > 0:11:55into the murder of Jean McConville,
0:11:55 > 0:11:57they certainly knew it now.
0:11:58 > 0:11:59The PSNI confirmed this
0:11:59 > 0:12:02in a statement to Spotlight earlier today.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05They said...
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Anthony McIntyre now feels the book should not have been published.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20I think it was a mistake to publish the book.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22Yes, in retrospect, I do,
0:12:22 > 0:12:24but, at the time, I had given guarantees
0:12:24 > 0:12:27to Brendan Hughes, who wanted his material published earlier.
0:12:27 > 0:12:29I gave guarantees to Brendan that...
0:12:29 > 0:12:31I had persuaded him not to publish his stuff,
0:12:31 > 0:12:33I told him it would endanger things.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36But, after his death, which he had asked me about,
0:12:36 > 0:12:39would it be published? And I said, "Yes, we will do it."
0:12:41 > 0:12:45In May 2011, the PSNI began legal action
0:12:45 > 0:12:48to access the Boston College Project archive.
0:12:48 > 0:12:50A subpoena was sent to the college.
0:12:50 > 0:12:56When you first heard that the PSNI was going after your material,
0:12:56 > 0:12:58the material in the Boston College Archives,
0:12:58 > 0:13:00what was your reaction?
0:13:00 > 0:13:02Horror.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04I immediately got onto Ed Moloney.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06Well, he informed me and I said,
0:13:06 > 0:13:08"How can this happen? How can it happen?"
0:13:11 > 0:13:13It now appears that Boston College
0:13:13 > 0:13:15had ASSUMED that no outside authorities
0:13:15 > 0:13:17would attempt to access the material
0:13:17 > 0:13:19through a legal challenge -
0:13:19 > 0:13:22a view they say was shared by Moloney and McIntyre.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27Going back to the beginning of this project, what legal advice,
0:13:27 > 0:13:31if any, did Boston College take at the time
0:13:31 > 0:13:34about the legal status of these interviews
0:13:34 > 0:13:36once they had been gathered?
0:13:46 > 0:13:52So, there was a general presumption that the PSNI
0:13:52 > 0:13:55or any authorities like that wouldn't go after this material,
0:13:55 > 0:13:57but that presumption turned out to be wrong?
0:14:00 > 0:14:03That would turn out to be a devastating miscalculation.
0:14:03 > 0:14:07In January 2012, Judge William G Young
0:14:07 > 0:14:09of the Boston District Court
0:14:09 > 0:14:12ruled that all material relating to the McConville case
0:14:12 > 0:14:14should be handed over,
0:14:14 > 0:14:17specifically interviews with former IRA member
0:14:17 > 0:14:20Dolours Price and 85 other interviews
0:14:20 > 0:14:23done with seven former IRA members.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27On appeal, the number of tapes released was scaled back to 11.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30Amongst them, the interviews with Dolours Price.
0:14:32 > 0:14:37This is the US court judgment which led to the tapes being released.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41Now, it says that most of those tapes are only indirectly relevant,
0:14:41 > 0:14:44in which the McConville case is mentioned in passing,
0:14:44 > 0:14:48or as hearsay by people who were not directly involved.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50But one interview is a first-hand account
0:14:50 > 0:14:53of what occurred that day in 1972.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56Now, taken together, it's this material
0:14:56 > 0:14:59which is thought to have led to several arrests recently
0:14:59 > 0:15:02in connection with the Jean McConville murder,
0:15:02 > 0:15:04including that of Gerry Adams.
0:15:04 > 0:15:09My research was never, ever designed or conducted
0:15:09 > 0:15:12for the purpose of having anybody arrested -
0:15:12 > 0:15:14Mr Adams or anybody else -
0:15:14 > 0:15:16and it is quite clear to me
0:15:16 > 0:15:19that there is political motivation in this arrest.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22Some of the people who Anthony McIntyre interviewed
0:15:22 > 0:15:24are now paying a personal cost
0:15:24 > 0:15:27for taking part in the Boston College Project.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31And the issue of his own safety has been raised.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34Do you feel in any sense that your security is under threat?
0:15:34 > 0:15:40I don't know. I hope not, but I simply have to face it down.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43I mean, I would describe my situation
0:15:43 > 0:15:46as having been left punch-drunk by everything that has happened,
0:15:46 > 0:15:49but I'm still on my feet and I am still fighting.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57Sinn Fein believes that the investigation into Gerry Adams,
0:15:57 > 0:16:01and the overall decision by the PSNI to access the Boston tapes,
0:16:01 > 0:16:05is part of an agenda to harm the party.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07At a press conference last Friday,
0:16:07 > 0:16:10Martin McGuinness spoke of dark forces within the police,
0:16:10 > 0:16:13and alleged the existence of a small cabal of officers
0:16:13 > 0:16:17who were out to undermine the Peace Process.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19This is a big situation we have to deal with.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22This is a very serious situation.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Martin, are the officers involved in this investigation
0:16:25 > 0:16:27seriously, in your opinion, part of a cabal?
0:16:30 > 0:16:33Well, the people who directed the officers
0:16:33 > 0:16:36who are presently involved in the situation
0:16:36 > 0:16:39at Antrim PSNI Station
0:16:39 > 0:16:43are, in my view, yes, part of that cabal.
0:16:47 > 0:16:49Today, the Chief Constable, Matt Baggott,
0:16:49 > 0:16:51reacted to those statements.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54He said that the arrest of Gerry Adams
0:16:54 > 0:16:56was legitimate and lawful,
0:16:56 > 0:17:00and that Martin McGuinness's claims were unfair and inappropriate.
0:17:02 > 0:17:04Martin McGuinesss seems to be suggesting almost
0:17:04 > 0:17:06that there are two police forces.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09There is a police force which supports Sinn Fein,
0:17:09 > 0:17:10and supports the Peace Process,
0:17:10 > 0:17:13and that there is another police force
0:17:13 > 0:17:16maybe with links to Unionism or the British Government.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23The day after the press conference, the rhetoric was raised again
0:17:23 > 0:17:26when the Deputy First Minister stood shoulder to shoulder
0:17:26 > 0:17:30at a Falls Road rally with veteran Republican Bobby Storey.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33We have a message for the British Government,
0:17:33 > 0:17:36for the Irish Government, for the cabal that's out there.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38We ain't gone away, you know!
0:17:40 > 0:17:43To many, that was a significant statement.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47I think when leading well-known Republicans
0:17:47 > 0:17:50like Bobby Storey are involved,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52it shows how seriously Sinn Fein are taking the situation,
0:17:52 > 0:17:54it shows how angry they are,
0:17:54 > 0:17:57but it is also a message to the community that this is something
0:17:57 > 0:18:00which they are watching over very closely and feel very avidly about.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03That they would dare touch our party leader,
0:18:03 > 0:18:08the leader of Irish Republicanism on this island!
0:18:08 > 0:18:10To use symbolic personnel like that
0:18:10 > 0:18:13is a way of saying that they mean business.
0:18:14 > 0:18:18Gerry Adams was released without charge on Sunday evening.
0:18:18 > 0:18:22A Loyalist sit-down protest aimed at stopping his convoy
0:18:22 > 0:18:26reflected some of the heightened tensions the episode had caused
0:18:26 > 0:18:27across the political divide.
0:18:27 > 0:18:30Unionists alleged that Sinn Fein had shown
0:18:30 > 0:18:33their own dark side during their leader's incarceration,
0:18:33 > 0:18:37bringing undue pressure to bear to get his release.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43At a press conference, there was an air of triumph.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46Gerry Adams admitted he had been questioned about the Boston tapes,
0:18:46 > 0:18:49but was dismissive that they could be used
0:18:49 > 0:18:51to prosecute him or anyone else.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02Gerry, there are a lot of other Boston College tapes out there
0:19:02 > 0:19:06and there's now legal precedent for them to be used.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08Do you believe, in that context,
0:19:08 > 0:19:12there should now be an amnesty for historical crimes
0:19:12 > 0:19:14for the sake of political stability?
0:19:14 > 0:19:18No, we've never called for...
0:19:18 > 0:19:20We've never called for an amnesty.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24But let me tell you this -
0:19:24 > 0:19:31these Boston tapes are an entirely dubious project,
0:19:31 > 0:19:36so don't be too mesmerised about the Boston tapes
0:19:36 > 0:19:40as being an evidential basis of any kind against anybody
0:19:40 > 0:19:46by disgruntled anti-Peace Process individuals
0:19:46 > 0:19:49who represent no-one whatsoever.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54Gerry Adams went on to further question the motivation
0:19:54 > 0:19:58of the people who ran the project, and the people who took part in it.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01Both Moloney and McIntyre are opponents
0:20:01 > 0:20:05of the Sinn Fein leadership and our peace strategy
0:20:05 > 0:20:09and have interviewed former Republicans who are hostile to me
0:20:09 > 0:20:12and to other Sinn Fein leaders.
0:20:12 > 0:20:17Ed Moloney told Spotlight that the Boston Project
0:20:17 > 0:20:20was a legitimate academic endeavour,
0:20:20 > 0:20:23and that Gerry Adams naming him and others in the press conference
0:20:23 > 0:20:25was an exercise in intimidation.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32Gerry Adams was keen to point out that he would now be concentrating
0:20:32 > 0:20:36on Sinn Fein's election campaigns north and south of the border.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39To some observers in the South,
0:20:39 > 0:20:41where Sinn Fein is gathering momentum,
0:20:41 > 0:20:46his release without charge may in fact now lead to a surge in support.
0:20:46 > 0:20:51I think the fact that Gerry Adams has not been charged with anything
0:20:51 > 0:20:54after being held in custody for four days,
0:20:54 > 0:20:58I think Sinn Fein will make capital from that,
0:20:58 > 0:21:02and I think that could have a huge bearing
0:21:02 > 0:21:07on the outcome of both the local and the European elections
0:21:07 > 0:21:09in the Republic,
0:21:09 > 0:21:14and that could be manifested both in support for Sinn Fein
0:21:14 > 0:21:18and a lessening of support for the Government parties.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24But there's no doubt that north of the border,
0:21:24 > 0:21:27the last few days have re-ignited issues around policing,
0:21:27 > 0:21:32justice, and the past that many thought had been put to bed.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35The big concern for Sinn Fein
0:21:35 > 0:21:37will be that prosecutions of Republican leaders
0:21:37 > 0:21:41for historical crimes are now on the agenda.
0:21:41 > 0:21:42They now have problems.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44They will not only have the dissidents saying,
0:21:44 > 0:21:46"Ha! We told you so, we knew this was happening,"
0:21:46 > 0:21:49he'll also have people in his own grassroots who will be going,
0:21:49 > 0:21:52"Martin, hang on - you're locked at the hip with Peter Robinson,
0:21:52 > 0:21:54"and they've now got Gerry arrested.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56"Who's next? Gerry Kelly, Danny Morrison...
0:21:56 > 0:21:58"yourself, Martin?"
0:22:00 > 0:22:03Anthony McIntyre says it's entirely feasible
0:22:03 > 0:22:05that further Boston College tapes,
0:22:05 > 0:22:08still in the archive and unseen by the PSNI,
0:22:08 > 0:22:10could be used for that purpose.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15Do you think it's possible that the PSNI might go after
0:22:15 > 0:22:18the rest of the material that's still in the Boston College Archive?
0:22:18 > 0:22:21I don't know, but the British police
0:22:21 > 0:22:25are vindictive enough to try and continue their raiding for it.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27Isn't it the case, now that there's legal precedent,
0:22:27 > 0:22:31that the PSNI could come back to Boston College
0:22:31 > 0:22:35when they're investigating further cases and ask for more material?
0:22:50 > 0:22:54Earlier today, Boston College said that it would now consider
0:22:54 > 0:22:57handing back the archive to the interviewees
0:22:57 > 0:22:58who contributed to the project.
0:22:58 > 0:23:03It's unclear how the practicalities and legalities of that would work.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06But, if it happens, the Boston tapes project
0:23:06 > 0:23:10will be at an end, its contents lost to history,
0:23:10 > 0:23:13the price paid for a lack of consensus
0:23:13 > 0:23:16on how we deal with Northern Ireland's past.
0:23:19 > 0:23:21But there is another side to this story
0:23:21 > 0:23:23which goes beyond the political impact
0:23:23 > 0:23:27of which crimes are being pursued, and which are not.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29It's a story of human suffering,
0:23:29 > 0:23:32and the legitimate expectation of victims,
0:23:32 > 0:23:36like the McConville family, that justice will somehow be done.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41The trauma that they suffered,
0:23:41 > 0:23:44both at the time of their mother's death, and afterwards,
0:23:44 > 0:23:47was recounted in a documentary last year,
0:23:47 > 0:23:50in which Darragh MacIntyre put Brendan Hughes's claims
0:23:50 > 0:23:53about the Jean McConville murder to Gerry Adams.
0:23:54 > 0:23:58Did you give the order for the execution of Jean McConville?
0:23:58 > 0:24:01No, I had no act or part to play
0:24:01 > 0:24:05in either the abduction, the killing or the burial
0:24:05 > 0:24:08of Jean McConville or, indeed, any of these other individuals,
0:24:08 > 0:24:10and Brendan is telling lies.
0:24:14 > 0:24:18The PSNI now has access to a number of interviews from the archive,
0:24:18 > 0:24:22including that of Dolours Price, which discuss the case.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25But the fact that Gerry Adams has been released pending a file
0:24:25 > 0:24:28being sent to the Public Prosecution Service
0:24:28 > 0:24:32means there wasn't sufficient evidence to charge him immediately.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35Last week, Michael McConville, Jean's son,
0:24:35 > 0:24:38said that he knows the names of some of those
0:24:38 > 0:24:41who initially abducted his mother, because he saw their faces.
0:24:42 > 0:24:46But he said that he's still too frightened to give them to police.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52That fear that Michael spoke of back in 1972,
0:24:52 > 0:24:55that fear is still with the family today.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58There's an extensive network of the McConville clan across Belfast,
0:24:58 > 0:25:01across the North, but particularly across Belfast.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05Michael McConville was taken away because he was, at the age of 11,
0:25:05 > 0:25:08threatening to go to the police with the information he had.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11He was left in no doubt that he would be hurt
0:25:11 > 0:25:13or other members of his family would be hurt
0:25:13 > 0:25:15if he gave up any information.
0:25:18 > 0:25:20Michael's sister, Helen McKendry,
0:25:20 > 0:25:22says she is willing to hand over names,
0:25:22 > 0:25:26although it's thought that she was not a first-hand eye witness
0:25:26 > 0:25:27to the abduction.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30My understanding is that up to 20 people could have been
0:25:30 > 0:25:34involved in the abduction, murder and disappearance of Jean McConville.
0:25:34 > 0:25:38There were maybe ten, 15 people gathered in her flat
0:25:38 > 0:25:43and around her flat in December '72 to take her away.
0:25:43 > 0:25:47Now, those people, we believe, were mostly teenagers,
0:25:47 > 0:25:51members of Na Fianna, the junior wing of the IRA.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53They would have taken Jean McConville to a house, I'm told,
0:25:53 > 0:25:56just off the Falls Road where she was held for five or six hours.
0:25:56 > 0:25:58At that point, she would have been handed over
0:25:58 > 0:26:00to more senior members of the IRA.
0:26:00 > 0:26:02She was held for a total of about six days.
0:26:02 > 0:26:04They had to get her across the border,
0:26:04 > 0:26:08then they had to get somebody ready to bury her and someone to shoot her.
0:26:14 > 0:26:18What's clear is that the McConville case isn't going away any time soon.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23The big question raised by the events of the last week,
0:26:23 > 0:26:25is how we should deal with the past -
0:26:25 > 0:26:28and, on that, there is no consensus.
0:26:28 > 0:26:30Some feel that the rule of law demands that,
0:26:30 > 0:26:33where there is still evidence, there should be convictions.
0:26:33 > 0:26:36Others feel that, for the sake of political stability,
0:26:36 > 0:26:39there now needs to be a different mechanism
0:26:39 > 0:26:42by which we can find out the truth about what happened here
0:26:42 > 0:26:44during the darkest years of The Troubles.
0:26:44 > 0:26:49Of course, it raises the whole question of dealing with the past,
0:26:49 > 0:26:52which is the elephant in the room,
0:26:52 > 0:26:55and the one that nobody seems to be able to deal with.
0:26:56 > 0:27:01If, as a result of this, people on both sides of the border
0:27:01 > 0:27:04and in Downing Street decide enough is enough
0:27:04 > 0:27:09and we have to, in some way, find a process
0:27:09 > 0:27:13where we can agree a narrative of The Troubles,
0:27:13 > 0:27:18maybe this will have been a positive development in the Peace Process.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21When you don't have a process of being able to investigate the past
0:27:21 > 0:27:24and a machinery for dealing with it,
0:27:24 > 0:27:27at some point, Loyalists, Unionists, Republicans, Sinn Feiners,
0:27:27 > 0:27:30are going to have a knock on the door.
0:27:30 > 0:27:32Because, whether it is 10 years later or 20 years later,
0:27:32 > 0:27:34a piece of evidence will become available,
0:27:34 > 0:27:37someone will leave a note with their will,
0:27:37 > 0:27:40and say, "I was involved in this and so were the following people."
0:27:40 > 0:27:44The original idea behind the Boston College Project,
0:27:44 > 0:27:47according to those who devised it,
0:27:47 > 0:27:50was to access the truth, or at least versions of it,
0:27:50 > 0:27:53so that, one day, future generations could learn from it.
0:27:55 > 0:27:58Why collect it? What's the point of it?
0:27:58 > 0:28:01Why collect knowledge about the Second World War? What's the point?
0:28:01 > 0:28:03It's what academics and researchers do.
0:28:03 > 0:28:05We tried to enhance public understanding.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08In order for people to know WHY something happened,
0:28:08 > 0:28:10they need to know WHAT happened.
0:28:10 > 0:28:13In Northern Ireland, what happened in the past
0:28:13 > 0:28:17remains a deeply divisive question now, in the present.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20The tapes that lie in the vaults of Boston College only contain
0:28:20 > 0:28:24a fraction of the contested truth about The Troubles,
0:28:24 > 0:28:27but it's a history that remains dangerous to this day.