0:00:03 > 0:00:09For people from ethnic minority backgrounds
0:00:09 > 0:00:11this has been a long, uncomfortable summer.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13In the last five months, there have been more racial offences
0:00:13 > 0:00:16in Northern Ireland than there were for the whole of last year.
0:00:16 > 0:00:18Racial attacks aren?t just increasing.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20They are rocketing to levels that are taking the authorities
0:00:20 > 0:00:23by surprise.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26No matter how you look at these figures they are deeply
0:00:26 > 0:00:28worrying, there is a deep sense of intolerance throughout
0:00:28 > 0:00:30the city that has to be addressed.
0:00:30 > 0:00:38Some victims have been high-profile.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40I am only human. When people make comments like that,
0:00:40 > 0:00:41of course it?s offensive, it hurts.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Others have been thrust into the media glare.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46But can they expect justice?
0:00:46 > 0:00:49Tonight on Spotlight, we investigate why it is that against a huge rise
0:00:49 > 0:00:52in racist offences, we don?t appear to be punishing perpetrators for the
0:00:52 > 0:00:59racist elements of their crimes.
0:00:59 > 0:01:02There is not a single racist attack where the sentence was increased
0:01:02 > 0:01:04that you can give me an example of.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06Well, I think that, we certainly have one example.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09One though.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12Yes.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27The Belfast Mela.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30Over the last few years it?s become a celebration of a new diversity
0:01:30 > 0:01:32in Northern Ireland.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35Today, 25,000 people have turned out to celebrate the many cultures
0:01:35 > 0:01:40that now call this place home.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Its founder and organiser is Nisha Tandon,
0:01:43 > 0:01:47This is a very different image of Belfast than we?ve seen over
0:01:47 > 0:01:53the summer where we?ve seen some pretty high profile racist attacks.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55Yes, that?s right, and it just makes your heart break
0:01:55 > 0:01:58when you see that there are some positive things going on today and
0:01:58 > 0:02:03there are just these small elements who try to not sort of embrace any
0:02:03 > 0:02:07other culture living beside them.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10Over the last four months, the number of racist incidents recorded
0:02:10 > 0:02:13by police has increased massively.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16And Nisha Tandon recently said she would consider leaving
0:02:16 > 0:02:20Northern Ireland because of a growing climate of racism.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24Have you had any racial incidents happen to you?
0:02:24 > 0:02:29Recently there was an incident and that was I was carrying these two
0:02:29 > 0:02:33bags to go home and there were these two young people who just said you
0:02:33 > 0:02:37need to go home and I said, listen, I am going home and he said, but
0:02:37 > 0:02:40that?s a long flight and I said, it?s not a long flight,
0:02:40 > 0:02:48it?s just round the corner.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51How did you feel when these two young men... You have
0:02:51 > 0:02:54been living in Northern Ireland for longer than they have been alive,
0:02:54 > 0:02:55and they?re telling you to go home.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58How does that make you feel?
0:02:58 > 0:03:06I just feel they need to be taught, they need to be given that...
0:03:06 > 0:03:08If you are black, brown, yellow, it doesn?t really make any difference.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12But to some people, it clearly does.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15These are the statistics for this summer given to us by the police.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18And they show that in the last five months alone there have been more
0:03:18 > 0:03:21racist offences recorded in Northern Ireland than over
0:03:21 > 0:03:23the whole of the previous year.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26A lot more.
0:03:26 > 0:03:27You went to a hostel.
0:03:27 > 0:03:28A hostel, yeah.
0:03:28 > 0:03:34Because the police couldn?t guarantee
0:03:34 > 0:03:35your safety in East Belfast.
0:03:35 > 0:03:37Yeah.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39Since April there have been 431 racial offences recorded by
0:03:39 > 0:03:41the police across Northern Ireland.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43Over the whole of the previous year there were 263.
0:03:43 > 0:03:47That?s already an increase of 64% on last year.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50And when you look at what?s happening in certain parts
0:03:50 > 0:03:53of Belfast, the picture is even more worrying.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57And much of the rise across Northern Ireland seems to be driven by what?s
0:03:57 > 0:04:00happening in parts of the capital.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04The new hotspot for racial offences is north Belfast, where this summer
0:04:04 > 0:04:09there has been a staggering 276% rise in racially-motivated offences
0:04:09 > 0:04:13recorded by the police.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17East Belfast has traditionally been seen as a problem area
0:04:17 > 0:04:19for race attacks, and there has been an increase there
0:04:19 > 0:04:23of 134% since last year.
0:04:23 > 0:04:27And this isn?t just a problem in loyalist areas.
0:04:27 > 0:04:32West Belfast has also seen a big jump in racial offences, of 110%.
0:04:32 > 0:04:36South Belfast saw the smallest increase, but it was
0:04:36 > 0:04:39still significant, at 24%.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42Assistant Chief Constable Will Kerr is in charge of the police operation
0:04:42 > 0:04:47to clamp down on racist incidents.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50No matter how you look at these figures they are deeply
0:04:50 > 0:04:52worrying, there is a deep sense of intolerance throughout
0:04:52 > 0:04:53the city that has to be addressed.
0:04:53 > 0:04:55And what is behind this?
0:04:55 > 0:04:57Some communities perceive there is a loss of single identity.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59Some a displacement of political or social concerns
0:04:59 > 0:05:03particularly housing.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06Some is just about thuggery and control of a local area.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10The summer got off to a tempestuous start.
0:05:10 > 0:05:15Pastor James McConnell of the Whitewell metropolitan
0:05:15 > 0:05:18Tabernacle made a highly controversial speech about Islam.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21Islam is heathen.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24Islam is Satanic.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28Islam is a doctrine spawned in hell.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31Amidst the criticism, the First Minister Peter Robinson
0:05:31 > 0:05:36decided to defend Pastor McConnell.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38I wouldn?t trust Muslims who are bombing and shooting.
0:05:38 > 0:05:42However, there are many of the normal daily
0:05:42 > 0:05:45activities of life that I would have no difficulty in trusting a Muslim
0:05:45 > 0:05:49to do, to go down to the shop for me, to give me the right change.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51Both Pastor McConnell and Peter Robinson later clarified their
0:05:51 > 0:05:56comments, and apologised to Muslims.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59But to Alliance MLA Anna Lo, the damage had been done.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03She threatened to leave Northern Ireland because she felt
0:06:03 > 0:06:07the lack of political leadership on hate crime, which she herself
0:06:07 > 0:06:12was experiencing, made it a cold house for ethnic minorities.
0:06:12 > 0:06:18I do feel vulnerable, walking on the street, because I
0:06:18 > 0:06:23know ethnic minorities... I know that ethnic minorities have
0:06:23 > 0:06:26been attacked and I know that when I feel vulnerable that when I walk on
0:06:26 > 0:06:30the street that I may be attacked.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32For Anna Lo, the defence of Pastor McConnell
0:06:32 > 0:06:35by high-profile political leaders gave a disturbing insight into
0:06:35 > 0:06:39public life in Northern Ireland.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52For Peter Robinson to come out in defence
0:06:52 > 0:06:54of the preacher McConnell, that would not have happened in
0:06:54 > 0:06:56other political parties in the UK.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00Anybody who is associated with his comments, I think would have seen
0:07:00 > 0:07:08a public outcry, or their own party disowning them and they would be out
0:07:08 > 0:07:11of politics.
0:07:11 > 0:07:12In early June there was another high-profile incident.
0:07:12 > 0:07:18A Nigerian man, Michael Abiona, was prevented from moving
0:07:18 > 0:07:20into a housing executive bungalow in Glenluce Drive in East Belfast
0:07:20 > 0:07:23by a group of protestors who stood outside with banners calling
0:07:23 > 0:07:27for local houses for local people.
0:07:27 > 0:07:31Michael Abiona believes that the incident was racist.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34Actions speak louder than words.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38So if it had been a white man that had gone in I am quite sure
0:07:38 > 0:07:39they would not have done that.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42The case prompted another intervention by Peter Robinson.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45This time he said that he believed that the case wasn?t necessarily
0:07:45 > 0:07:52racist, but more likely a local housing dispute.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55The First Minister has his own opinion, it was the way he felt, but
0:07:55 > 0:08:04I believe the majority who either listen or hear about the story
0:08:04 > 0:08:07didn?t feel the way he felt.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09Once again, Peter Robinson went on to
0:08:09 > 0:08:11clarify his remarks, acknowledging that what happened was being treated
0:08:11 > 0:08:13as a hate incident by the PSNI.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16I think the police will judge whether it was intimidation or
0:08:16 > 0:08:18whether it was peaceful protest.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20Dr Robbie McVeigh has written two major reports into racism
0:08:20 > 0:08:23in Northern Ireland.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26He feels that the First Minister?s interventions showed a lack of
0:08:26 > 0:08:30understanding of how victims feel.
0:08:30 > 0:08:36The bottom line should be that he should be listening to how difficult
0:08:36 > 0:08:39it is to be a black and minority ethnic person in this country
0:08:39 > 0:08:43and responding to that, rather than deciding that he can make a decision
0:08:43 > 0:08:46around whether what a minister says or local resident says is racist,
0:08:46 > 0:08:47that?s the wrong way to do it.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49We asked Peter Robinson for an interview for this programme.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52He declined.
0:08:52 > 0:08:55So did the deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58They did send us a joint statement, which said, we unreservedly condemn
0:08:58 > 0:09:03race hate crimes and all forms of intimidation.
0:09:03 > 0:09:08It is in all our interests that people from
0:09:08 > 0:09:10minority ethnic backgrounds have a sense of belonging and know that
0:09:10 > 0:09:12their place in society is valued.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15By working together we can ensure all people
0:09:15 > 0:09:19in our community are treated fairly and show we welcome the diversity
0:09:19 > 0:09:23which enhances all our lives.
0:09:23 > 0:09:28The big question posed by a summer of spiralling race hate
0:09:28 > 0:09:30incidents, is how prepared we are in Northern Ireland to support
0:09:30 > 0:09:32the victims of those incidents.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35And not just politically.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39There are also major questions over how our criminal justice system
0:09:39 > 0:09:46processes offences which victims believe to be racially-motivated.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53It?s early morning near Royal Avenue in the heart of the city.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56This is Musa Gulusen.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58And this is his daily ritual.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01Every morning Musa sets up his stall where he sells everything
0:10:01 > 0:10:10from loom bands to leather belts.
0:10:10 > 0:10:19You build this every morning.
0:10:19 > 0:10:24Every morning, this is my job.
0:10:24 > 0:10:30So do you have a license to operate here?
0:10:30 > 0:10:38Yeah, I have a license and every month I pay ?188.
0:10:38 > 0:10:40And how long have you had a stall on Royal Avenue?
0:10:40 > 0:10:42About 20 years.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45Musa says the vast majority of people he interacts with on a daily
0:10:45 > 0:10:47basis, from customers to passers-by, are pleasant and supportive of him.
0:10:47 > 0:10:48But not everyone.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52Say, on an average day, do you have people saying racist things to you?
0:10:52 > 0:10:55Every day to be honest with you, every day, a couple of times.
0:10:55 > 0:10:55Every day.
0:10:55 > 0:11:00And what do you mean, people saying things.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04People say like Taxi and walk away but I am laughing, I am laughing.
0:11:04 > 0:11:14And sometimes it gets more serious than name calling.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17On the 11th June this year, Musa was attacked and robbed.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20The initial attack happened here at his stall in full view
0:11:20 > 0:11:22of horrified shoppers.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Musa says the attackers allegedly stole ?120 and left him
0:11:24 > 0:11:26with bruises and a broken wrist.
0:11:26 > 0:11:28And they broke your arm?
0:11:28 > 0:11:30Broke my arms, yes.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32I see you have still got the...?
0:11:32 > 0:11:34Yup.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36Obviously that is very serious, has it ever happened before?
0:11:36 > 0:11:38Once before yes, about three years ago,
0:11:38 > 0:11:41it is the physical attacks and again Christmas time, not last Christmas,
0:11:41 > 0:11:49last Christmas before again.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51I mean, Musa, that is starting to sound like it's
0:11:51 > 0:11:54happening on a regular basis.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56I know, but that is just eejit people.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59Why do you believe that it was a racial attack?
0:11:59 > 0:12:04Because they called me straight to my face, "Taxi bustard".
0:12:04 > 0:12:06I don't know him, he doesn't know me.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10The police are currently investigating Musa's case.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12We made two arrests at the time and obviously
0:12:12 > 0:12:15as with all these cases, we have got to gather the evidence, present it
0:12:15 > 0:12:18to the Public Prosecution Service.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21It will be up to the Public Prosecution Service to decide
0:12:21 > 0:12:24if there is enough evidence in Musa's case to prove that it was
0:12:24 > 0:12:27in fact a racially motivated crime.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30And even if Musa thinks it is, that doesn't mean the criminal justice
0:12:30 > 0:12:33system will deal with it that way.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35Barra McGrory is the Director of Public Prosecutions.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38He says that proving any particular attack is in fact racist,
0:12:38 > 0:12:42is not easy.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44It's difficult to identify the race element formally
0:12:44 > 0:12:47in court because that must be proved to the criminal standard
0:12:47 > 0:12:51beyond all reasonable doubt.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53That's what the law says, now that brings a significant number
0:12:53 > 0:12:56of difficulties.
0:12:56 > 0:12:58Jolena Flett has been working with people
0:12:58 > 0:13:01from ethnic minority backgrounds in Northern Ireland for a decade.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05In that time she's seen many crimes that victims believe to be racist go
0:13:05 > 0:13:11through the court system only for the racist element to be dropped.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14So we have had cases where people will be the victim of
0:13:14 > 0:13:18the racist crime, that they believe has been racially motivated.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20If it goes to the courts, it will often be prosecuted
0:13:20 > 0:13:23as maybe an assault but without a racial element because that
0:13:23 > 0:13:28conviction is easier to secure.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30There is no easy opportunity to identify
0:13:30 > 0:13:32the race element formally in court.
0:13:32 > 0:13:36Surely therefore that is a broken system?
0:13:36 > 0:13:39Well it's the law, it's the way it is framed and certainly the policy
0:13:39 > 0:13:43makers and law makers on these issues may want to revisit this.
0:13:43 > 0:13:45For ethnic minorities living in Northern Ireland,
0:13:45 > 0:13:49it's not a new complaint.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51In fact, its ten years since one major case
0:13:51 > 0:13:56where race was first alleged to be a factor, and then dropped.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58Brij Sharma was a popular businessman who ran a shop
0:13:58 > 0:14:02on a peaceline in North Belfast.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06He had come to Northern Ireland when he was 10 years old.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08I consider myself to be Northern Irish.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11When it comes to asking me where my home is, this is my home.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14The BBC had interviewed him about his life on the front line
0:14:14 > 0:14:17of a divided society, when he described how at times, he
0:14:17 > 0:14:21would be subjected to racist abuse.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25Getting abuse from the ones that you grew up with, especially the ones
0:14:25 > 0:14:28you know, that's very hurtful.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32In May 2004 Brij Sharma was attacked.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34Police witness statements from the time spoke of racial abuse
0:14:34 > 0:14:37being hurled during the incident.
0:14:37 > 0:14:44Brij Sharma was killed in the attack.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46Today, his brother Bharat is the chairman of the
0:14:46 > 0:14:50Indian Community centre in Belfast.
0:14:50 > 0:14:54He believes that what happened was racially motivated.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57Now, at the time and still you are convinced that this was
0:14:57 > 0:14:59a racially motivated attack?
0:14:59 > 0:15:02Definitely, without a doubt.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06But that's not what the criminal justice system said
0:15:06 > 0:15:10Yes, but part of the criminal justice system, the PSNI had made
0:15:10 > 0:15:19the case and prepared the file for the culprits on a murder
0:15:19 > 0:15:23charge, racially motivated murder.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26So the police said there was a racial element?
0:15:26 > 0:15:29But Brij Sharma had had a previous disagreement with one
0:15:29 > 0:15:31of his attackers.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34And that was the reason given in court that the case wasn't
0:15:34 > 0:15:36prosecuted as a racist incident.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40Bharat Sharma feels the racial element was swept under the carpet.
0:15:40 > 0:15:49Why are you so confident that it was a racial incident?
0:15:49 > 0:15:51The police had told us that there were lots of statements
0:15:51 > 0:15:56from the witnesses. These brothers had only one motive.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58They, in their shouting and abusing they had said, "we wanted
0:15:58 > 0:16:02to teach this Taxi a lesson".
0:16:02 > 0:16:05Bharat Sharma now feels like his brother's death could have
0:16:05 > 0:16:07been a crucial moment for the prosecution of race-hate
0:16:07 > 0:16:10crime in Northern Ireland.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12So you felt this could be a watershed moment here in
0:16:12 > 0:16:14Northern Ireland for race crime?
0:16:14 > 0:16:16Yes.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19Especially with the person losing their life.
0:16:19 > 0:16:28And we felt so strongly, equally on par to Stephen Lawrence's case.
0:16:28 > 0:16:32Stephen Lawrence was murdered in London in 1993 in a racist attack
0:16:32 > 0:16:39that was to send shockwaves through the criminal justice system.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41A major report, by Sir William MacPherson into the
0:16:41 > 0:16:44killing said that the metropolitan police force had mishandled the case
0:16:44 > 0:16:47because Stephen Lawrence was black.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50The McPherson report led to reforms of the Metropolitan Police,
0:16:50 > 0:16:55and the Criminal Justice System in England and Wales.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57That's precisely what should have been done here.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59It wasn't done.
0:16:59 > 0:17:02I would argue that we are still in pre McPherson situation.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05We still haven't looked at McPherson and thought what we should do
0:17:05 > 0:17:09and change about criminal justice and race in northern Ireland.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12In 1998 legislation was introduced in England and Wales
0:17:12 > 0:17:18which brought in a new kind of crime - racially-aggravated offences.
0:17:18 > 0:17:22Those offences don't exist in Northern Ireland.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24But there is legislation which allows perpetrators of crimes
0:17:24 > 0:17:29to get a longer sentence if there's a racial element involved.
0:17:29 > 0:17:34So, how many times have judges in Northern Ireland actually done that?
0:17:34 > 0:17:37Now you might think that information would be easily available.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40But it isn't - the Public prosecution Service hadn't published
0:17:40 > 0:17:46that information for over two years.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49We were finally given the latest statistics from the Public
0:17:49 > 0:17:53Prosecution Service an hour and a half before our interview with them.
0:17:53 > 0:17:57But there was still a big blind spot in the information.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00It told us how many people had been brought to court
0:18:00 > 0:18:10for racial offences ? but not how many of them had been convicted.
0:18:10 > 0:18:15I have been through these statistics over the last couple of hours,
0:18:15 > 0:18:18and I still can't find figures about how many convictions received
0:18:18 > 0:18:21enhanced sentences because the crime was racially aggravated.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23Yes and you will have difficulty finding that information for this
0:18:23 > 0:18:29reason, is that, while the law allows for the prosecution service
0:18:29 > 0:18:35to seek an enhanced sentence on the basis of aggravation by hostility to
0:18:35 > 0:18:37race, it doesn't require the court to
0:18:37 > 0:18:43record which element of the sentence has been increased because of that.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46In England and Wales it's easy to work out the conviction rate
0:18:46 > 0:18:49for racially-aggravated crimes that make it to court ? the most recent
0:18:49 > 0:18:53figures say it's 73%.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56But in Northern Ireland, the system doesn't tell us how many times the
0:18:56 > 0:18:59racist element has been punished.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02So how do we know if it's happening at all?
0:19:02 > 0:19:06There is not a single racist attack aggravated by racial hostility where
0:19:06 > 0:19:09the sentence was increased that you can give me an example of?
0:19:09 > 0:19:10I think...
0:19:10 > 0:19:15We certainly have one example where the judge very clearly set out.
0:19:15 > 0:19:17One, though.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20Yes, when the judge very clearly set out, but that's because,
0:19:20 > 0:19:23that's the only case in which the judge identified the element
0:19:23 > 0:19:29of the sentence which was increased because of the racial hostility.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32The PPS later provided us with details of that one case,
0:19:32 > 0:19:35in which a judge said she was giving a higher sentence
0:19:35 > 0:19:39for a racially-aggravated crime.
0:19:39 > 0:19:44And it turns out it involved a familiar face ? Musa.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46On one of the occasions when he was previously attacked,
0:19:46 > 0:19:48the offender was given an increased sentence by the judge
0:19:48 > 0:19:52because of the racial element.
0:19:52 > 0:19:58But it's the only time the PPS can point to where it has happened.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01It's clear that in Musa's case, he believes that what happened to
0:20:01 > 0:20:04him this time was also a racist attack ? and it's crucial to him
0:20:04 > 0:20:08that the system believes it too.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11What would you think if this if this crime was processed
0:20:11 > 0:20:29as just a regular assault and the charge was not racist?
0:20:29 > 0:20:32Yes, I know, I hear that, he was right on the street and he
0:20:32 > 0:20:33called me "dirty Taxi bustard".
0:20:33 > 0:20:34You know what I mean?
0:20:34 > 0:20:37So you know it was a racist hate crime?
0:20:37 > 0:20:38Yes, I believe this time.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40The criminal justice system is so important to people
0:20:40 > 0:20:42of ethnic minorities, and especially people who have been
0:20:42 > 0:20:43victims of racist attacks.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46It's crucial to them, that they feel these attacks are not
0:20:46 > 0:20:48just being dealt with in terms of people receiving some sort
0:20:48 > 0:20:51of conviction, but being seen for what they are, racist attacks.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54At the moment, we just don't know if that's happening, there is no
0:20:54 > 0:20:56evidence that that's happening.
0:20:56 > 0:21:02Yes, but we have given you as much material as we have available to us.
0:21:02 > 0:21:04The police have to provide us as prosecutors with the evidence.
0:21:04 > 0:21:14if we have the evidence, we will prosecute it on that basis.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17I can't do any better than that. But why is it possible in England
0:21:17 > 0:21:20and Wales and not here to keep that racial element in the case?
0:21:20 > 0:21:23I think in part because they are probably ten years
0:21:23 > 0:21:25ahead of the curve in terms of practice, in terms of...
0:21:25 > 0:21:27Or we are ten years behind.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29Ten years behind, exactly, it is a matter of perspective.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32And we probably are and that is why we are working hard
0:21:32 > 0:21:35with the PPS to try and make sure that we can accelerate or look
0:21:35 > 0:21:36at the legislative framework.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38Because this is a matter for legislators, for investigators
0:21:38 > 0:21:45and for prosecutors together.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48After the murder of Stephen Lawrence, the McPherson Report said
0:21:48 > 0:21:51that some parts of the criminal justice system in England and Wales
0:21:51 > 0:21:56were institutionally racist.
0:21:56 > 0:21:57The report defined institutional racism
0:21:57 > 0:22:02as the collective failure to provide appropriate or professional support
0:22:02 > 0:22:08to a community on the basis of its culture, colour or ethnic origin.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10So could that apply in Northern Ireland to a system that
0:22:10 > 0:22:13isn't able to count how many racist attacks result in convictions with
0:22:13 > 0:22:17longer prison sentences?
0:22:17 > 0:22:19The term institutional racism has been used in England
0:22:19 > 0:22:22about organisations where there is a collective failure to support one
0:22:22 > 0:22:25particular community, or one group.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27Do you think that the Public Prosecution Service,
0:22:27 > 0:22:31under that definition here is institutionally racist?
0:22:31 > 0:22:33Absolutely.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36If you look at the number of convictions, it would suggest that
0:22:36 > 0:22:40there really is no problem with race hate here at all, because there is
0:22:40 > 0:22:43almost nobody in prison serving time for being involved in it and of
0:22:43 > 0:22:44course we know that isn't the case.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47We have been told by some people from ethnic minority groups that
0:22:47 > 0:22:50they feel the PPS, because it's not collecting this data properly,
0:22:50 > 0:22:54is institutionally racist.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57I have to say, I am shocked to hear words like that.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00Because nobody has ever suggested that I have heard
0:23:00 > 0:23:03before that the PPS has failed in its duty to minority races
0:23:03 > 0:23:06within our society, or that we are not contributing in a significant
0:23:06 > 0:23:17way, so I would reject it.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20In some places ? such as our computer screens ? identifying
0:23:20 > 0:23:25vicious racism isn't difficult.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27The explosion in racial offences in Northern Ireland has been
0:23:27 > 0:23:31accompanied by a rise in online racism.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35Social media sites like Facebook and twitter have hosted some vicious
0:23:35 > 0:23:38and vitriolic racial abuse written by people in Northern Ireland over
0:23:38 > 0:23:40the past few months.
0:23:40 > 0:23:44Much of it has been directed at one person in particular.
0:23:44 > 0:23:50Alliance MLA Anna Lo.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53As we all know, a lot of abuse came online on Facebook,
0:23:53 > 0:23:57and we have some of those comments.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00I assume you don't mind if we look at some of them, is that ok?
0:24:00 > 0:24:01Not a problem.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04These are some of the comments written about Anna Lo.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07They are shocking and difficult to read, we feel it's important to show
0:24:07 > 0:24:14some of them in order to reveal the nature of the abuse.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17I know people have said that, oh, as a politician you should be thick
0:24:17 > 0:24:23skinned, it's part and parcel of life as a politician to get abuse.
0:24:23 > 0:24:24But there is not a politician anywhere
0:24:24 > 0:24:28in the UK or Ireland who would be expected to put up with this?
0:24:28 > 0:24:30No, no, no.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33So how did it affect you personally?
0:24:33 > 0:24:35Well it's very hurtful, very hurtful when people make such
0:24:35 > 0:24:37abusive comments about your background, about your ethnic
0:24:37 > 0:24:43origin about your appearance.
0:24:43 > 0:24:49Absolutely it hurts and I am only human.
0:24:49 > 0:24:53The Alliance party reported a number of the comments to the police.
0:24:53 > 0:24:56So far, five people have been dealt with.
0:24:56 > 0:25:02But no one was convicted ? all they received was a police caution.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06Certainly in the case of Anna Lo and others we were so keen to prosecute.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08To have an official sanction to make sure that people knew that
0:25:08 > 0:25:11you couldn't get away with this without a police sanction.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14But why were some of these people, I mean why were these people only
0:25:14 > 0:25:15cautioned?
0:25:15 > 0:25:18Surely there should have been a bigger sanction than that.
0:25:18 > 0:25:20I mean they get off, don't they?
0:25:20 > 0:25:23Well don't forget that is a matter for the Public Prosecution Service.
0:25:23 > 0:25:24We packet the evidence, we gather the evidence,
0:25:24 > 0:25:28we present it to the PPS and the PPS make a decision and sanction.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31Surely in a case like this, it's in the public interest to have
0:25:31 > 0:25:33some people receive deterrent sentences and prosecutions,
0:25:33 > 0:25:38which will make everyone think I am not doing that again.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42cautions, Anna Lo believes that cautions are not enough.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46Well I do not want to go into the specifics of that case,
0:25:46 > 0:25:48but that would not have been my understanding of the situation
0:25:48 > 0:25:54whenever we looked at it.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57But Anna Lo was clear when we spoke to her that the sanctions
0:25:57 > 0:26:01didn't appear to match the crime.
0:26:01 > 0:26:05If the criminal justice system had come down very hard on one or two or
0:26:05 > 0:26:08more people who had written on this page, would that have been
0:26:08 > 0:26:09helpful to you and to other people?
0:26:09 > 0:26:12I think so.
0:26:12 > 0:26:16Partly it's justice, we want justice.
0:26:16 > 0:26:18You know, we don't want to be abused and see
0:26:18 > 0:26:22no action done, yes, we want that to be a deterrent to let people see
0:26:22 > 0:26:26that they will face consequences.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28If people are just receiving cautions, it will seem to many
0:26:28 > 0:26:31people like a slap on the wrist.
0:26:31 > 0:26:34Yes, yes, and that should not have happened.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37The point about really vicious on line racism, though, is that it has
0:26:37 > 0:26:39a wider social impact, doesn't it?
0:26:39 > 0:26:40It does.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43It lowers the tone and it makes other people who read
0:26:43 > 0:26:45it think, well, this is acceptable.
0:26:45 > 0:26:47So at some point isn't there an argument that we give someone
0:26:47 > 0:26:50more than a police caution?
0:26:50 > 0:26:51Absolutely.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54So why haven't we done it so far?
0:26:54 > 0:26:58You are focussing on one case, in which a number of diversionary
0:26:58 > 0:27:02decisions were taken in the context of that case, which i can't talk
0:27:02 > 0:27:05about, because it's not complete, so with the greatest of respect, Declan
0:27:05 > 0:27:07this organisation takes race crime very seriously and prosecutes in
0:27:07 > 0:27:14court, the vast majority of cases.
0:27:14 > 0:27:16But for the victims of racist attacks, it's not prosecutions
0:27:16 > 0:27:19that matter, but convictions.
0:27:19 > 0:27:21And in particular, higher sentences for
0:27:21 > 0:27:25the perpetrators of racist attacks.
0:27:25 > 0:27:30The killer, Brij Sharma, was given a 17-month prison sentence
0:27:30 > 0:27:31for manslaughter.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34His brother and accomplice, who was also present, was sentenced
0:27:34 > 0:27:40to 100 hours community service.
0:27:40 > 0:27:49It brought home the message to every Indian person living here in
0:27:49 > 0:27:51Northern Ireland - it is a question mark ? how important is their
0:27:51 > 0:27:53contribution, their life in Northern
0:27:53 > 0:27:54Ireland....to Northern Ireland.
0:27:54 > 0:28:07The PPS told us that ten years on, they are meticulous about recording
0:28:07 > 0:28:10cases which go to court as being racially motivated, and enter that
0:28:10 > 0:28:12element on their computerised file about the offence.
0:28:12 > 0:28:15They say since May 2013, they have recorded 124 cases as having
0:28:15 > 0:28:15a racially-aggravated element.
0:28:15 > 0:28:19You identifying it, on your computer system is not justice in the eyes
0:28:19 > 0:28:22of a race hate victim, they want to see a conviction which takes into
0:28:22 > 0:28:28account the racial element and they tell us they are never seeing it.
0:28:28 > 0:28:30I appreciate that, and I have great sympathy for those
0:28:30 > 0:28:34people from those communities which are being targeted in this way.
0:28:34 > 0:28:38And all of us in this society, we all have to play our part
0:28:38 > 0:28:41in identifying the underlying causes of this.
0:28:41 > 0:28:45And in eeking out the evidence which will help us bring in new
0:28:45 > 0:28:56measures to tackle this, obviously increasing cancer in our society.
0:28:56 > 0:28:59Dealing with racism isn't just the job of the courts.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02But they do have a crucial role to play in making
0:29:02 > 0:29:07the perpetrators of racist attacks pay the price for their crimes.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10Victims of those attacks need to know that justice is not just being
0:29:10 > 0:29:13done, but being seen to be done.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16But right now in Northern Ireland, it seems that too many victims
0:29:16 > 0:29:22simply aren't seeing it.
0:29:37 > 0:29:38Did the 1966 World Cup
0:29:38 > 0:29:41mark the birth of modern football?
0:29:41 > 0:29:43Would we starve without bees?
0:29:43 > 0:29:46Why do Buddhists meditate?
0:29:46 > 0:29:48Is rocket science easier than you think?
0:29:48 > 0:29:53Well, BBC iWonder is full of great questions
0:29:53 > 0:29:57for curious people like us. They just keep on coming.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59Luckily, they have the answers as well.