:00:29. > :00:35.Hello and welcome to Spotlight special with our studio audience.
:00:36. > :00:41.Our panellists tonight at the TV leader Jim Allister, the DUP leader
:00:42. > :00:46.Jeffrey Donaldson, the Lions minister Jeffrey Ford and Declan
:00:47. > :00:49.Kearney and the commentator and former victims Commissioner Patricia
:00:50. > :01:01.McBride. That is our line-up tonight. You are to have your part
:01:02. > :01:21.to play. This is how you can get in touch.
:01:22. > :01:28.You can follow the programme on Twitter. The details are on your
:01:29. > :01:38.screen. Let's get into the questions. I would like to ask the
:01:39. > :01:44.panel how do I convince my children to vote given their perception of
:01:45. > :01:54.the standards and behaviours of MLAs during the expanses? This is a hot
:01:55. > :01:58.topic this week with the independent financial review panel talking about
:01:59. > :02:03.secret regulars is for having expenses claims reviewed, denied of
:02:04. > :02:10.course all around but it has left a bad taste. Jim Allister you have
:02:11. > :02:14.talked about this, is it a big deal? It is a big deal because it is
:02:15. > :02:19.public money. This is not party many. This is public money. Public
:02:20. > :02:23.money that apparently is being squandered through a system which
:02:24. > :02:31.totally lacks the adequate checks and balances. Your sister programme
:02:32. > :02:39.did an investigation couple of years ago exposed the fact that ?700,000
:02:40. > :02:48.of public money had been paid to Sinn Fein front organisation called
:02:49. > :02:52.Ireland research and yet they couldn't find a single scrap of
:02:53. > :02:57.research that had ever been completed either Wadi. It had been
:02:58. > :03:09.set up either financial managers of Sinn Fein. Tell us what research was
:03:10. > :03:11.done. One of the tragedies is that the Assembly Commission which is
:03:12. > :03:15.supposed to look at this matter does not seem to have even investigated
:03:16. > :03:26.whether or not the research was done. Yesterday the DUP and Sinn
:03:27. > :03:30.Fein were jumping up and down to defend the integrity of the expenses
:03:31. > :03:33.system. Tonight the job First Minister is having to call for a
:03:34. > :03:40.review but they had their chance three months ago in the fresh start
:03:41. > :03:50.document and they said that fundamentally the expenses system,
:03:51. > :03:53.the architecture is sound. We have Sinn Fein year. ?700,000 is a lot of
:03:54. > :04:01.money for research that can't be found. As all of the enquiries
:04:02. > :04:03.demonstrated Sinn Fein was absolutely and completely compliant
:04:04. > :04:11.with the regulations that were set down by the relevant audience. Sinn
:04:12. > :04:16.Fein has used the funding available to ensure there has been quality
:04:17. > :04:21.representation delivered by our representatives. Sinn Fein members
:04:22. > :04:25.enter the chamber of the assembly, they going fully equipped, informed,
:04:26. > :04:29.capable of dealing with the issues and the policy formation and taking
:04:30. > :04:35.forward the legislation that is necessary to try and ensure the
:04:36. > :04:43.answer to your question the outset, how do you convince your children
:04:44. > :04:46.that it's worthwhile floating -- voting? We do have a viable
:04:47. > :04:51.political process which serves the needs of citizens and that gives
:04:52. > :05:00.your children confidence that is a there but politics year. The parties
:05:01. > :05:05.have given good representation without that ?700,000. We have
:05:06. > :05:08.demonstrated time and again we are entirely capable of ensuring that
:05:09. > :05:11.the political process is benefiting as a result of the public funding
:05:12. > :05:17.that is available for these purposes. Let me deal with this
:05:18. > :05:21.particular point. Public confidence needs to be maximised in the
:05:22. > :05:25.political process. We have come through five years of developing
:05:26. > :05:30.political instability and last year we came through a serious political
:05:31. > :05:36.crisis. Politics now needs to be seen in the context of the fresh
:05:37. > :05:41.start agreement. It did not say anything about expenses and
:05:42. > :05:47.transparency. It said the architecture was sound. And we
:05:48. > :05:55.welcome the continued operation of the body and were quite open to the
:05:56. > :05:57.suggestion that there is merit in exploring other mechanisms that
:05:58. > :06:07.would enhance public confidence in that little process as proper
:06:08. > :06:20.compliance. Do we need something like that, and entirely independent
:06:21. > :06:24.mechanism? I think we do. We have a system at Westminster which is
:06:25. > :06:29.proven to work. It is independent. I don't think it is a way forward that
:06:30. > :06:35.MLAs or political parties should be investigating these issues. It
:06:36. > :06:42.should be investigated by an independent body and we proposed two
:06:43. > :06:47.years ago when this issue came up that we should introduce the system
:06:48. > :06:56.at the assembly. We still hold that view. How come that fresh start said
:06:57. > :07:03.the architecture is sound? The fresh start is an all-party document
:07:04. > :07:06.agreement. We tried to persuade people and we will continue to try
:07:07. > :07:10.and persuade people of the need to have an independent system to
:07:11. > :07:15.oversee the expenses at Stormont. That is our view. That was our view
:07:16. > :07:20.two years ago and it remains our view. The first Anniston today as
:07:21. > :07:26.reiterated that position. That is the DUP position. We are in a
:07:27. > :07:31.Coalition Government. There are now four parties in the government. We
:07:32. > :07:33.cant take decisions on our own. We have to persuade others to come on
:07:34. > :07:38.board. If other parties are prepared to do that we will have an
:07:39. > :07:41.independent system and then we can persuade your children that what we
:07:42. > :07:50.have in Stormont is more accountable and transparent. The Chief Whip was
:07:51. > :08:06.talking about the integrity of the expenses system. You did not back
:08:07. > :08:17.our proposal. If you are doing that now I welcome that. You are not
:08:18. > :08:26.going to bully me. I am going to speak. If you are coming on board
:08:27. > :08:37.for an independent system, you did not do it. It's not just about Sinn
:08:38. > :08:47.Fein and that ?700,000 it's about the back door system apparently that
:08:48. > :08:52.MLAs are going to members of the staff at Stormont and saying I know
:08:53. > :08:57.this has been refused his expenses claim but maybe you can fix it for
:08:58. > :09:03.me. I don't know what the specific start. That is the allegation. If
:09:04. > :09:09.people are explaining and expenses claim they have a right to do that
:09:10. > :09:13.but what we do need... Not behind the door though. That is not an
:09:14. > :09:20.official challenge -- channelling that sense. That is an issue about
:09:21. > :09:27.transparency. It's an issue about public funding, it's an issue about
:09:28. > :09:30.how assembly funding is used. It's also about how we persuade young
:09:31. > :09:34.people to engage in the literal process. Everywhere I go I meet
:09:35. > :09:37.young people who are engaged in the political process but they are not
:09:38. > :09:45.keen on what they think politics is a storm on. They are interested in
:09:46. > :09:50.all kinds of things but not the shenanigans they see at Stormont all
:09:51. > :09:52.the time. Let's see this in the context of what it is and it's an
:09:53. > :09:59.issue over accountability. It pains me to say it but I agree with Jim
:10:00. > :10:05.Allister. We have a serious problem of accountability in the Stormont
:10:06. > :10:09.structures. There is no accountability in the system we have
:10:10. > :10:11.now. We need some kind of institutional reform so that our
:10:12. > :10:15.politicians can be held accountable and that the minute the only
:10:16. > :10:19.accountability coming from within Stormont is from the naughty corner
:10:20. > :10:26.of the Green party and the independent MLAs. You mean you want
:10:27. > :10:34.a proper opposition. That would be nice but we need processes in place.
:10:35. > :10:39.Any other young people who would like to venture a thought about
:10:40. > :10:47.their feelings this week with this expenses business? We need to
:10:48. > :10:50.implement the system we have at Westminster. It is invaluable to
:10:51. > :10:55.have public trust in politicians and in our politics and it's one of the
:10:56. > :11:09.only ways we would be able to re-establish that trust. I want to
:11:10. > :11:14.bring Patricia in. Is your confidence in the assembler at a low
:11:15. > :11:19.ebb? There are two issues, the first is around the expenses issue itself
:11:20. > :11:24.and how that is best dealt with. The announcement now that there will be
:11:25. > :11:27.a further review of how those expenses are as a positive thing but
:11:28. > :11:31.from what I can see of the investigations to date there has
:11:32. > :11:35.been, nobody has acted outside of the rules and we need to examine
:11:36. > :11:40.whether the rules are right or wrong. The second issue is the
:11:41. > :11:44.original question which is around how do we get young people to engage
:11:45. > :11:48.and the gentleman talking about accountability. The key to
:11:49. > :11:52.accountability is the election and that is happening in May. That is
:11:53. > :12:01.the opportunity for people to put forward their views. Do you think
:12:02. > :12:08.that issues like this are high up the agenda of the voters? I think
:12:09. > :12:12.when you look at the trend in elections where we have seen
:12:13. > :12:16.turnouts in the last number of years it's showing disaffection with the
:12:17. > :12:22.political situation generally. That is the concern so the challenge for
:12:23. > :12:24.all the parties when they are campaigning for the assembly
:12:25. > :12:29.elections will be how do you reinvigorate that vote? And more
:12:30. > :12:37.importantly what safeguards can you put in place to make sure the public
:12:38. > :12:41.representatives are accountable. Might the young people be disengaged
:12:42. > :12:46.from politics because our representatives are failing to
:12:47. > :12:53.address any of our needs. We have the highest levels of youth
:12:54. > :12:58.unemployment. Young people in care are disproportionately represented
:12:59. > :13:08.within our justice system. I could go on. You are not delivering to
:13:09. > :13:13.young people. I was going to say that we need to ensure that that is
:13:14. > :13:16.maximum transparency and integrity and if there are other mechanisms we
:13:17. > :13:22.can introduce that will guarantee that is the case and give confidence
:13:23. > :13:26.the under people then we should absolutely do that. However, Jim
:13:27. > :13:32.Allister is no paragon to lead the charge in relation to integrity and
:13:33. > :13:37.standards and how the system should operate. He does not -- he does
:13:38. > :13:50.everything a candid giant drag wallet it down. I shine the dark --
:13:51. > :13:58.the light into the dark spotlight of Stormont. I am proud to shown that
:13:59. > :14:06.spotlight. But we still haven't heard were the ?700,000 went. What
:14:07. > :14:13.research it purchased. It went into the cough is of Sinn Fein. This was
:14:14. > :14:22.a company set up by the Finance managers. We are going to come back
:14:23. > :14:29.to Alan. Buy you encouraged by what you hear? I have been trying to
:14:30. > :14:36.convince my two sons to vote but I have not succeeded. Based on what I
:14:37. > :15:04.am hearing, I don't think I am going to be any more successful.
:15:05. > :15:11.People have to ask themselves and if you take Sinn Fein, they held the
:15:12. > :15:18.country to ransom recently for a year based on... I'm talking about
:15:19. > :15:25.the resistance to austerity cuts proposed by David Cameron's
:15:26. > :15:30.government. From my point of view, ?700,000 which cannot be accounted
:15:31. > :15:38.for, I still have not heard anything which says to me where that ?700,000
:15:39. > :15:45.went. I will move it on. The second question is from Anita Murphy. My
:15:46. > :15:54.question is, how is Northern Ireland supposed to believe in a sheared
:15:55. > :16:00.society if our first Minister has declined invitations to the 1916
:16:01. > :16:08.centenary celebrations. The first Minister is going to Dublin this
:16:09. > :16:11.week to our Church of Ireland, the historical centenary working group
:16:12. > :16:18.at Christ Church Cathedral. She will be at that. But it did not set a
:16:19. > :16:22.very good example, Jeffrey Donaldson, when she said she would
:16:23. > :16:28.not take part in anything to commemorate a failed revolution
:16:29. > :16:33.which was a strike against a moxie? Is she not entitled to her a few?
:16:34. > :16:47.Are we going to rewrite the history of 1916? -- against democracy. You
:16:48. > :16:54.can be an apologist all you want and whoever else wants to be... But I am
:16:55. > :16:59.entitled and she is entitled to view an act that when people walk in and
:17:00. > :17:06.shoot a policeman in a police station whether in 1916 or 2016, it
:17:07. > :17:11.is wrong. You do not glorify those acts. Arlene Foster is trying to
:17:12. > :17:16.understand better the views of other people and those -- on this issue
:17:17. > :17:20.which is why she will go to the event organised by the Church of
:17:21. > :17:29.Ireland. If your measure of fairness for our future, if your message to
:17:30. > :17:36.our children is we glorify acts of terrorism, whether they occurred in
:17:37. > :17:42.1916 or 2016, if that is the way to measure fairness, I disagree
:17:43. > :17:50.strongly with that. I want our children to understand that violence
:17:51. > :18:03.and terrorism for whatever reason... Go-ahead. I did not mention the word
:18:04. > :18:07.horrify. 1916 happened. Arlene Foster, as first minister of
:18:08. > :18:12.Northern Ireland should respect that and have some sort of involvement
:18:13. > :18:16.and appreciation of that. Just like we had Martin McGuinness shaking
:18:17. > :18:23.hands with the Queen. The Queen met with Mary McAleese. We all have to
:18:24. > :18:28.except that the past she does. The same way that when the Queen visited
:18:29. > :18:35.the Republic of Ireland the first time, Sinn Fein boycotted the event.
:18:36. > :18:39.If you are going down the road of giving me lectures on history,
:18:40. > :18:42.please do not go there because for everything you put in front of me, I
:18:43. > :18:49.will have something to put in front of you. I am sure you well. The
:18:50. > :18:55.reality is Arlene Foster is the first Minister of Northern Ireland.
:18:56. > :18:59.Dublin is not in Northern Ireland. This is not a commemoration taking
:19:00. > :19:05.place in Northern Ireland, it is in the Republic of Ireland. What do you
:19:06. > :19:08.think Arlene Foster should do? I think her decision to attend the
:19:09. > :19:13.event in Dublin tomorrow is a positive one and a brave one, given
:19:14. > :19:22.that it goes against what she had said... I think whoever organises
:19:23. > :19:28.the event is irrelevant. This is an event which is part of a series of
:19:29. > :19:34.events to commemorate 1916. It might be called discussion. The fact she
:19:35. > :19:40.is attending is positive. The question was around a sheared future
:19:41. > :19:45.and respect for one another, shading diverse histories. The Easter Rising
:19:46. > :19:52.wasn't terrorism, it was the end of an empire. It was about Irish
:19:53. > :19:57.citizens standing up for self-determination and making that
:19:58. > :20:03.first set. A few Irish citizens. Killing a lot of other Irish
:20:04. > :20:08.citizens. It was the beginning of a movement towards an Irish Republic
:20:09. > :20:11.so it is dear to the hearts of not only Irish citizens in this part of
:20:12. > :20:17.the Ireland but Irish citizens throughout the world. Arlene Foster
:20:18. > :20:22.is the first Minister for all of the citizens as she has a duty as first
:20:23. > :20:24.minister to represent all of the citizens, much the same way as
:20:25. > :20:30.Martin McGuinness did when ye engaged with the Queen and as
:20:31. > :20:35.Jeffrey Donaldson does when he represents his constituents, as does
:20:36. > :20:40.Jim Allister. It is no different, she has a duty to do that and should
:20:41. > :20:48.do so to the fullest extent. What do you think? I welcome the fact that
:20:49. > :20:53.Arlene Foster is going to attend the event in Dublin. However, Geoffrey
:20:54. > :21:00.did not add to your question and that type of antagonistic approach
:21:01. > :21:05.in relation to this debate and then attempting to reducing it down to...
:21:06. > :21:12.Is the wrong way to approach how we jointly celebrate, commemorate and
:21:13. > :21:20.remember the events of 1916. Flip it over to the other side, I could make
:21:21. > :21:26.remarks about the imperialist carnage that was evidenced
:21:27. > :21:31.throughout 1916. An event such as the Battle of the storm which caused
:21:32. > :21:36.so much human destruction and carnage, in the interests of
:21:37. > :21:42.imperialism which led predictably -- directly to conditions which gave
:21:43. > :21:47.rise to nine -- World War II and that is a fair analysis. We need to
:21:48. > :21:50.understand that his narrative towards understanding events like
:21:51. > :21:56.the Battle of the storm and I need to be respectful of that narrative.
:21:57. > :22:07.We have an opportunity in 2016 to take big iconic universities, Easter
:22:08. > :22:10.week and the Battle of the storm. The distinct narrative of our
:22:11. > :22:21.sheared history and begin to exist will work together in a reasoned way
:22:22. > :22:26.how perhaps we can begin to build a sheared culture of commemoration in
:22:27. > :22:33.our society that is based on mutual respect. -- Battle of Somme. How do
:22:34. > :22:43.you explain it Sinn Fein's boycott of the Queen's visit. At that time,
:22:44. > :22:48.we did not feel it was right. So this sheared future is depending on
:22:49. > :22:52.your interpretation? It is not because what Queen Elizabeth did
:22:53. > :22:57.during that visit was quite remarkable. She made a huge
:22:58. > :23:06.contribution, in my opinion, to the Irish peace process is. In the
:23:07. > :23:10.period since, the English royal house is dedicated and committed to
:23:11. > :23:14.the development of the peace process which is far in advance of some of
:23:15. > :23:22.her unionist political representatives. This is one of the
:23:23. > :23:27.problems. Declan cannot even come to call my Queen anything other than
:23:28. > :23:37.English. She is the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
:23:38. > :23:47.Northern Ireland. Let me finish. Excuse me. Listen to the year
:23:48. > :23:54.please. Declan, Declan. Let us have another word from the panel. I
:23:55. > :24:06.totally repudiate any equivalence between the 1916 rebellion and the
:24:07. > :24:13.phenomenal sacrifice of the Battle of the Somme. Grubby little
:24:14. > :24:18.rebellion of the 1916 was trying to take advantage of the fact that
:24:19. > :24:22.nation when a wartime to liberate Europe. Men of valour were out
:24:23. > :24:29.fighting that war in Europe. What happens? The Republicans tried to
:24:30. > :24:39.take at vantage of that with their rebellion of 1916. What we saw at
:24:40. > :24:45.the storm, the valour of men prepared in a cause of honour and
:24:46. > :24:51.freedom for us all that we still enjoy, prepare to make that
:24:52. > :24:57.sacrifice and I utterly repudiate attempts to create an equivalence.
:24:58. > :25:04.-- Somme. To me the Easter Rising is nothing. You do not recognise its
:25:05. > :25:11.historical importance? It is important to San but as a unionist,
:25:12. > :25:19.there is nothing for me to celebrate in rebellion against the British
:25:20. > :25:25.Crown. -- important to Somme. I think the tone is of celebration. We
:25:26. > :25:30.had Patricia talk about the sacrifice which she would translate
:25:31. > :25:35.into more recent time for when those who set about the terrorism of
:25:36. > :25:42.recent times, she equates with those who set about the terrorism of 1916.
:25:43. > :25:47.I repudiate that. There is no equivalence between defence of the
:25:48. > :25:54.realm and what happened at the Somme and what happens at the Easter
:25:55. > :26:01.Rising? I do not say anything to celebrate. I think it is fair I
:26:02. > :26:07.should come back. I will let you come back. This gentleman. It is
:26:08. > :26:13.ironic for Sinn Fein or anyone like them to talk about it quality when
:26:14. > :26:21.given me murder people on the basis of their politics and religion. They
:26:22. > :26:26.cannot even let Orange men up our roads, 20 years after the Good
:26:27. > :26:30.Friday Agreement we still have Sinn Fein creating residents groups. Sinn
:26:31. > :26:43.Fein is not stopping people marching up roads. Gentleman in the jackets.
:26:44. > :26:46.It is clear we are not going to agree about the Easter Rising
:26:47. > :26:54.tonight, tomorrow night or next year. But it is not about glorifying
:26:55. > :27:00.or celebrating, it is about engaging with it. If Arlene Foster had taken
:27:01. > :27:08.part in events in Dublin, it would have been more nuanced. I would like
:27:09. > :27:13.to ask Mr Donaldson and Mr Alistair how our union is going to engage in
:27:14. > :27:20.a sheared future if it is not through gestures like that? --
:27:21. > :27:25.Unionists. That is the point I wanted to make. It is not about
:27:26. > :27:32.commemoration but engagement and shaving at sheared future and
:27:33. > :27:37.understanding diverse futures. -- shading as sheared future. There is
:27:38. > :27:50.no comparison. The Easter Rising was about... I understand. You agree
:27:51. > :27:56.with him on that. I have problems with the concept of celebrating the
:27:57. > :28:00.Easter Rising. I also have problems with what Unionists did three years
:28:01. > :28:05.ago when they celebrated the Ulster government because those were two
:28:06. > :28:10.sides of the same coin. I want no part in either of those. There are
:28:11. > :28:14.issues to look at seriously and I have opened my diary for
:28:15. > :28:20.opportunities to travel to Dublin to consider activities regarding 1916
:28:21. > :28:24.but I was unable to accept an invitation for family reasons. When
:28:25. > :28:29.I discovered that recognition of the 1st of January, the raising of the
:28:30. > :28:34.flag in Dublin Castle involved reading out the names of 78
:28:35. > :28:40.volunteers who died with no reference to civilians, police
:28:41. > :28:45.officers, the 14 children in Dublin who died, I do think Democratic
:28:46. > :28:50.politicians in Dublin have a difficult job screening with the way
:28:51. > :28:54.they feel, the release date the Republic began on Easter Monday
:28:55. > :28:57.rather than Easter Sunday and yet they have moved into an entirely
:28:58. > :29:03.different position now in constitutional politics from what
:29:04. > :29:08.that was about. I think there is a difficulty squealing that, just like
:29:09. > :29:10.Unionists who celebrate rebellion against the Crown in the Ulster
:29:11. > :29:29.covenant. There was no comparison with the
:29:30. > :29:43.bloodthirsty events of 1916. I believe we should look at this. We
:29:44. > :29:53.have to look at the positives if you could take us back we will never get
:29:54. > :29:58.forward. We're moving on. I was wondering what the panel thought on
:29:59. > :30:09.whether there would be run an Irish passports from Unionists if the UK
:30:10. > :30:20.voted to leave the EU? Because they would be so desperate to remain in
:30:21. > :30:25.the EU? I think it's more than likely that the Republic of Ireland
:30:26. > :30:37.will be rushing to following such tough follower of the EU. Look at it
:30:38. > :30:42.financially, as a nation we pour ?20 billion a year into Europe and we
:30:43. > :30:49.get 10 billion back so we are ?10 billion on every year. We are a
:30:50. > :30:53.trading nation but most of our trade is outside the EU. Our trade with
:30:54. > :31:00.the rest of Europe is falling. Europe now has the lowest GDP of all
:31:01. > :31:04.enlightened areas of the world. So the future lies outside the EU for a
:31:05. > :31:11.trading nation and yet because of EU rules we cannot even have a trade
:31:12. > :31:15.agreement with North America, America which ours who are biggest
:31:16. > :31:19.trading partner because only Brussels can make trading
:31:20. > :31:25.agreements. Independent nation states like the UK can't by virtue
:31:26. > :31:31.of Brussels rules make a trade agreement on their own right. We
:31:32. > :31:38.cant decide our own laws, we cant decide this and our own borders. We
:31:39. > :31:44.are subject to all the hideous bureaucracy so getting out of the EU
:31:45. > :31:59.would be liberating financially and liberating for our freestanding as a
:32:00. > :32:04.nation. You are shaking your head. I think the point is well made in
:32:05. > :32:07.terms of people seeking Irish passports. As somebody was science
:32:08. > :32:11.passport application forms for people I can tell you the vast
:32:12. > :32:15.majority of senior citizens carry Irish passports because they are
:32:16. > :32:24.free. That is something that has started to happen but Jim talks
:32:25. > :32:28.about leaving the U as being positive but that is simply not the
:32:29. > :32:34.truth. If you are sitting there, let me paint this scenario, URA unionist
:32:35. > :32:37.farmer and you have a nice big dairy farm and a single farm payment
:32:38. > :32:43.coming in every and you look across the fence and there is your
:32:44. > :32:47.neighbour with the same sort of farm getting a nice single farm payment
:32:48. > :32:50.every year. Do you really think that if Britain comes out of the EU
:32:51. > :32:59.George Osborne is going to write a cheque for up to get that single
:33:00. > :33:02.farm payment? If you look at the amount of money in single farm
:33:03. > :33:17.payments and the amount of money the North has benefited in terms of the
:33:18. > :33:28.programmes, this part of the island as benefited from the. The figures
:33:29. > :33:38.the 2014 with 300 million, the infrastructure gave Northern Ireland
:33:39. > :33:47.was a total of 433 million. Where is your single farm payment coming
:33:48. > :33:53.from? We get ?433 million back of our own money. What you think our
:33:54. > :33:58.share of the 20 billion is? It is five or ?600 million a year and in
:33:59. > :34:04.response to that we get some of it back. Then farmers are leaving the
:34:05. > :34:21.North because they cannot make a living. Jeffrey Donaldson. There are
:34:22. > :34:30.various views within the DUP. Will you be voting to leave in the
:34:31. > :34:33.referendum? I am not going to indulge Patricia in the fantasy
:34:34. > :34:37.stuff she has come up with. Every penny that goes to the farmers in
:34:38. > :34:42.Northern Ireland is paid for by the taxpayers of Northern Ireland. Every
:34:43. > :34:55.time you buy goods and pay VAT on it money goes Europe.
:34:56. > :35:06.So George Osborne is going to carry on writing a cheque? I believe are
:35:07. > :35:08.taught to the government and I believe the government will continue
:35:09. > :35:13.to support the farming industry. It's interesting I think that we
:35:14. > :35:17.will wait and see what the Prime Minister comes back with. He has
:35:18. > :35:27.gone and is trying to get a deal for reform. We will make our judgment. I
:35:28. > :35:31.am highly sceptical. I do think what he wants to deliver will bring the
:35:32. > :35:35.reforms people in the UK want and if that's the case the DUP will be
:35:36. > :35:39.voting to leave and we will do so on the basis that the UK pays in far
:35:40. > :35:46.more to the European Union that we get back and that is an indisputable
:35:47. > :35:49.fundamental fact. It means that outside of the European Union the UK
:35:50. > :35:56.will have more money than it has inside the EU. It is interesting I
:35:57. > :36:01.think that when people like Patricia make the case that the EU all they
:36:02. > :36:04.want to do is stare us. They want to say if you leave here are the
:36:05. > :36:18.consequences. The consequences are we will have more money to spend on
:36:19. > :36:22.the things we need to spend on. A few short weeks ago I asked to
:36:23. > :36:27.questions and they asked whether except would-be interests of
:36:28. > :36:31.Northern Ireland and she can answer and there is said with the loss of
:36:32. > :36:38.all the funding which we have the camera lions upon the terms of our
:36:39. > :36:43.industry like fishing and infrastructure and in relation to
:36:44. > :36:45.the peace process, when asked the question would the British
:36:46. > :36:58.Government replace that funding chief urged that question as well.
:36:59. > :37:03.The reality is that Ireland's bases in Europe and the best place for us
:37:04. > :37:09.to be as within the confines of the European Union building and ensuring
:37:10. > :37:17.the European Union asks as a social Europe benefiting all of our
:37:18. > :37:23.citizens economic leak of rights. This is an agenda being driven by
:37:24. > :37:35.narrow in list nationalists and Tory vested interests.
:37:36. > :37:42.David Ford, Mike Nesbitt came back from America saying America wanted a
:37:43. > :37:49.strong UK in a strong European Union. President Obama said that.
:37:50. > :37:56.This question started off with something about passports. I know
:37:57. > :38:00.lots of people carry passports but the issue of Exeter is not just
:38:01. > :38:04.about economic 's which we could haggle about all day. It's about the
:38:05. > :38:11.fundamentals of what the European Union means. The act of establishing
:38:12. > :38:15.peace post-World War II by the original six members of the hugely
:38:16. > :38:19.significant stake and. I had the opportunity to be in Copenhagen the
:38:20. > :38:24.night before ten countries joined a few years ago and one of those I was
:38:25. > :38:31.with recalled seeing the Soviet altered fleet sailed past Copenhagen
:38:32. > :38:38.and a few short years later three of the Soviet republics were joining
:38:39. > :38:44.the European Union. Justice cooperation is much easier because
:38:45. > :38:57.we are in the European Union. So it's much bigger than economic 's. I
:38:58. > :39:04.think Patricia has engaged in the usual pro-European scare tactics. It
:39:05. > :39:07.is very clear. I am a British passport holder and any of the
:39:08. > :39:20.benefits we get out of Europe we more than people.
:39:21. > :39:32.I would just like to address a couple of the points. The bottom
:39:33. > :39:38.line is 50% of what goes on in Brussels is very commendable as the
:39:39. > :39:42.reason it was put together in the first place to stop another world
:39:43. > :39:51.war. The other 50% is corporate controlled as is Westminster.
:39:52. > :39:55.Patricia has eluded that the subsidy coming from Brussels are good that
:39:56. > :40:02.the subsidies at the same road coming since 2003 that are arriving
:40:03. > :40:15.today. So by next year they will be worth 32% less than what they were
:40:16. > :40:18.in 2003. I think we have to consider not looking for the economic
:40:19. > :40:23.advantage but the other advantage for being a European citizen. I
:40:24. > :40:29.choose to live here in this territory and if you look what you
:40:30. > :40:34.are getting in return for what you have given you might consider how
:40:35. > :40:42.many European citizens are making businesses in the UK and bringing in
:40:43. > :40:53.coming to the UK. We are going to move on. The next question comes
:40:54. > :41:00.from David Gleave. With younger generations influenced by issues
:41:01. > :41:06.like the economy and equality, why do Northern Ireland politicians
:41:07. > :41:11.refer to the past? It is in the news again that the Lord Chief Justice is
:41:12. > :41:25.talking about the legacy UNIX needed for inquests. The past is always
:41:26. > :41:31.there. Declan key any, why will it always be there? We need to ensure
:41:32. > :41:39.that the past is put in the past and the basis of the agreement that was
:41:40. > :41:41.signed last November and the fresh start reinstated the mechanisms
:41:42. > :41:45.which would allow us to move forward. Mechanisms that would give
:41:46. > :41:50.us the ability to deal with the legacy of our past. The difficulty
:41:51. > :41:56.is that the British Government having previously agreed to support
:41:57. > :41:59.those mechanisms during the course of the negotiations leading up to
:42:00. > :42:06.finality on the agreement in November reneged on its commit went
:42:07. > :42:11.for information disclosure. The sooner we get the British Government
:42:12. > :42:15.to recommit to the fresh start agreement and the mechanisms that
:42:16. > :42:19.all the parties have put in place to deal with the past then we will get
:42:20. > :42:25.to the place about which you speak. But the biggest government needs as
:42:26. > :42:31.a matter of absolute urgency to commit to a position where it they
:42:32. > :42:35.can and should be full information disclosure and start high -- stop
:42:36. > :42:39.hiding behind the shame of national security but if you look at the
:42:40. > :42:48.inquest which took place in relation to young Arlene Atkinson's death in
:42:49. > :42:52.the last 24 hours and learned then that the insulation that her family
:42:53. > :42:57.is looking for cannot in fact be disclosed because the British
:42:58. > :43:01.government have agreed to actually refuse information disclosure to
:43:02. > :43:05.that grieving family, I think that demonstrates that it British
:43:06. > :43:09.Government has not got to point where they can be trusted. Let's
:43:10. > :43:15.ensure that the mechanisms we have in place are fully permitted and
:43:16. > :43:20.let's ensure that all parties to the agreement commits to full
:43:21. > :43:30.information disclosure. Declan talks about the myth of national security.
:43:31. > :43:32.If this led to the disclosure of capabilities and techniques which
:43:33. > :43:35.would be of value to terrorists there would be a veto. Is that a
:43:36. > :43:48.myth? National security is not a myth but
:43:49. > :43:53.we suffered when a draft bill was introduced to replace the legacy
:43:54. > :43:58.issues and had about four layers of security which suggested that was
:43:59. > :44:03.their priority. The proposal the Lord Chief Justice is making about
:44:04. > :44:07.inquests looked at the issue of full disclosure from the police, Ministry
:44:08. > :44:11.of defence and other agencies to the judge who will be conducting the
:44:12. > :44:16.legacy inquests and it will be for the judge to produce a summary for
:44:17. > :44:20.families. That puts it away from government and in the hands of
:44:21. > :44:26.judges and that is something which should be more acceptable. There are
:44:27. > :44:30.real challenges to get an appropriate measure of national
:44:31. > :44:34.security. Thankfully as devolved Justice Minister I have nothing to
:44:35. > :44:39.do with national security but can see the implications and there are
:44:40. > :44:46.real challenges and to state is a myth is nonsense but to put on the
:44:47. > :44:49.multiple layers which the government put on before Christmas, with the
:44:50. > :44:53.result that victims of the past got let down in the deal. The deal that
:44:54. > :44:59.the DUP and the Sinn Fein did with the two governments. The veto was
:45:00. > :45:07.described as a smothering blanket, do you agree? I do not. Any state in
:45:08. > :45:12.the world has to pay attention to national security issues. There is a
:45:13. > :45:17.bigger agenda going on year. We hear Sinn Fein C the British government
:45:18. > :45:22.must open their books. We saw what happened when Martin McGuinness went
:45:23. > :45:29.to this travelling quietly, he took the first. He said his oath as an
:45:30. > :45:33.IRA man suppressed everything and he couldn't tell the truth. It is very
:45:34. > :45:38.strange that Sinn Fein are very adamant about getting the British
:45:39. > :45:42.government to open the books but when are Sinn Fein and the IoD going
:45:43. > :45:49.to tell the truth about their hideous bloodthirsty terrorism. They
:45:50. > :45:55.try and turn every incident into a rewrite of history. Take the
:45:56. > :46:02.incident when eight of the most bloodthirsty terrorists went to do
:46:03. > :46:06.more murder and because policemen did not put up their hand and say
:46:07. > :46:10.would you like to come down to the PlayStation for a chat, the British
:46:11. > :46:19.government is vilified as those responsible for that incident. --
:46:20. > :46:23.the police station. The SAS did the right thing in dealing with
:46:24. > :46:30.terrorists armed to the teeth who were going to kill again. What Sinn
:46:31. > :46:36.Fein is trying to equate the lawful actions of the security forces and
:46:37. > :46:41.when they step outside the law, the law is there to deal with them. You
:46:42. > :46:44.cannot equate the actions of the security forces with the deliberate
:46:45. > :46:53.terrorist actions of those who skulk behind and shoot people. We have to
:46:54. > :47:02.move on. Patricia. Always about the past? I am surprised about Jim's
:47:03. > :47:09.disregard for the rule of law, everyone should be accountable under
:47:10. > :47:18.the rule of law. Please let her speak. Jim, could you please have
:47:19. > :47:28.the courtesy to let me speak. What concerns me the most is when you
:47:29. > :47:33.hear that the Secretary of State is refusing disclosure in the murder of
:47:34. > :47:38.a child by a paedophile, how can we expect there will be disclosure in
:47:39. > :47:43.the cases of anywhere else in the cases of conflict related deaths. We
:47:44. > :47:51.do not know what the reasons are for the lack of disclosure? There could
:47:52. > :47:53.be valid reasons. Why would public interest immunity certificates be
:47:54. > :48:00.relevant in the case of Arlene Arkinson? Who are we protecting
:48:01. > :48:05.your? That is concerning and it should be concerning to everyone who
:48:06. > :48:09.supports the rule of law. I have always been optimistic about the
:48:10. > :48:13.ability to deal with our past. I engage with everyone in this table
:48:14. > :48:19.at some stage around that. We need to go back to the blueprint, there
:48:20. > :48:26.was a lot of positive that came out of that in terms of dealing with the
:48:27. > :48:33.past. For those who say that Republicans would open up, loyalists
:48:34. > :48:40.want open up, test them. Put them out in front of the independent
:48:41. > :48:43.mechanism. We had this travelling quietly, we saw what Mick -- we saw
:48:44. > :48:53.what McGuinness did, he would not tell the truth. I do not hear
:48:54. > :48:58.anything coming from you that is forward-looking, positive or
:48:59. > :49:02.aspirational. I want these murderers dealt with, I do not want a
:49:03. > :49:09.whitewash like Sinn Fein want a whitewash, it is on the past, let us
:49:10. > :49:15.forget about it. We do want to deal with the past. I would remind you
:49:16. > :49:21.that it was Sinn Fein for a year who held up for I hear the Sinn Fein
:49:22. > :49:29.agreement -- book agreement. Sinn Fein held that agreement to ransom,
:49:30. > :49:32.no one else. We were the only party blocking implementation and the only
:49:33. > :49:37.party who disagrees with the British government over the question of
:49:38. > :49:40.national security, I again blocking the implementation of the Stormont
:49:41. > :49:49.house at agreement. I spent most of my day today dealing with education
:49:50. > :49:55.issues, housing, roads and planning, the local council and youth issues
:49:56. > :49:59.especially. The report for young people in my constituency. A tiny
:50:00. > :50:04.proportion of my time is devoted towards this issue but it is an
:50:05. > :50:07.important one and we need to deal with it. That means we have to
:50:08. > :50:16.strive to get justice for the innocent victims who still chase
:50:17. > :50:19.after justice. If I hear Declan talk about full disclosure, I was
:50:20. > :50:28.involved in this medic inquiry which investigated collusion between the
:50:29. > :50:34.Garda and the IRA. Sinn Fein are invited to take part. Gerry Adams
:50:35. > :50:40.finally agreed to two senior IoD... This is worth it. With all due
:50:41. > :50:49.respect, it is the kind of stuff you do not want to put on the BBC but I
:50:50. > :50:54.will put it on the BBC. They were asked to cooperate with the inquiry.
:50:55. > :50:59.Every time they were asked a question, they got out of the room,
:51:00. > :51:03.made a telephone call and called their superiors and returned and
:51:04. > :51:09.said they could not and so that question. Sinn Fein and the IRA will
:51:10. > :51:22.not tell the truth. There is no level playing field. I... When it
:51:23. > :51:26.comes to truth and transparency, Republicans say the majority of
:51:27. > :51:33.mergers was done by Republicans but most unresolved murders was by them.
:51:34. > :51:47.The call for the British government to be transparent but... It is
:51:48. > :51:54.hypocritical. We look at the South Africa getting past apartheid,
:51:55. > :51:58.Rwanda gets past genocide, Northern Ireland should deal with issues from
:51:59. > :52:05.the past but also move into the 21st century. Almost 20 years after the
:52:06. > :52:10.Good Friday Agreement we are still playing the blame game. We can agree
:52:11. > :52:15.that bloody massacres were done on all sides during the Troubles. We
:52:16. > :52:23.need commitment from our leaders to move forward and move away from this
:52:24. > :52:28.divided society. Northern Ireland itself suffered, you cannot move
:52:29. > :52:35.away with a past which is not dealt with. The factors, young
:52:36. > :52:42.working-class men on both sides of the community were led by their
:52:43. > :52:50.leaders. This set -- the psychological damage which was last,
:52:51. > :52:55.especially my background, a loyalist background, will not go away any
:52:56. > :52:59.time soon. Playing the blame game does not work any more, pointing the
:53:00. > :53:04.finger does not work, we need to come up with a constructive week to
:53:05. > :53:13.ensure that no mother's son comes home in a box again. We want next
:53:14. > :53:17.question from a legal assistant in Belfast. Can you explain why women
:53:18. > :53:26.in Northern Ireland don't have the same access to abortion as women
:53:27. > :53:33.elsewhere in the UK? Clearly the Assembly voted against any change in
:53:34. > :53:43.the law on foetal abnormality and reports incest. David Ford, the
:53:44. > :53:48.Ulster Unionists leaders said setting up a six-month working party
:53:49. > :53:55.was Dickensian and cruel. You said it was any screws to avoid the
:53:56. > :54:01.issue. The answer to the question is because abortion law is devolved.
:54:02. > :54:08.The question is why was blocked in the Assembly? -- any excuse. We got
:54:09. > :54:13.subterfuge and excuse last week. I can respect anyone who stands up and
:54:14. > :54:21.says I am morally opposed to abortion and I will vote against
:54:22. > :54:25.this. I was in agreement with the amendment and foetal abnormality but
:54:26. > :54:30.I cannot respect someone who stands up and says, after a lengthy
:54:31. > :54:32.consultation with the Department of Justice and proposals which have
:54:33. > :54:37.been sitting with the Executive since June last year, after all we
:54:38. > :54:43.have gone through over three years, we need another working group to
:54:44. > :54:48.look at it. And they say that at the last minute before that vote was
:54:49. > :54:53.taken. It was a ruse by the DUP which bought the SDLP and therefore
:54:54. > :54:59.blocked anything happening. The interesting point is who is going to
:55:00. > :55:04.run the working group? The statement from the leader of the DUP said the
:55:05. > :55:10.Minister of health was being asked. If so, it is a crosscutting issue
:55:11. > :55:16.because justice has responsibilities as well. Let me bring in Jeffrey
:55:17. > :55:25.Donaldson. Pushing it beyond the election? Not at all, David Ford is
:55:26. > :55:29.being disingenuous. We had this amendment two weeks before the
:55:30. > :55:32.debate and there was no consultation. This amendment
:55:33. > :55:39.proposed a fundamental change to the law of Northern Ireland. Listen to
:55:40. > :55:45.what I have to say. I listened to you and if you do not mind, I will
:55:46. > :55:47.now speak. The law in Northern Ireland says there can only be
:55:48. > :55:55.abortion where the life of the mother is at risk. That is wrong.
:55:56. > :55:59.That is correct. I know what the law on abortion says. It does not permit
:56:00. > :56:05.abortion in the circumstances you're talking about. The fundamental
:56:06. > :56:10.change to the law in Northern Ireland and you do not do that by
:56:11. > :56:14.way of amendment which is put forward two weeks before an
:56:15. > :56:20.important bill. That is not we do business and that is why we why we
:56:21. > :56:23.believe we have to look at this more carefully, get experts involved.
:56:24. > :56:29.David, you're not an expert this, neither am I. Wait on you what they
:56:30. > :56:33.have to say and then we can take an informed decision. What is needed is
:56:34. > :56:41.compassionate legislation in the north and we do not have this. This
:56:42. > :56:46.entire debate, conducted as it is, it ignores the trauma of mothers and
:56:47. > :56:54.fathers who find themselves in situations where the pregnancy has
:56:55. > :56:58.been caused as a result of sexual violence or a fatal foetal
:56:59. > :57:00.abnormality and the child being stillborn or with life limiting
:57:01. > :57:09.illnesses. We need to move as quickly as possible to a situation
:57:10. > :57:11.where those parents are given the type of support that we require with
:57:12. > :57:15.compassionate legislation which allows them and clinicians, doctors
:57:16. > :57:21.and nurses, to advise them on the best options available to them.
:57:22. > :57:29.Patricia. Finally the only person at the table with a uterus gets to
:57:30. > :57:34.speak. As long as you get to speak. I think this week's debate in the
:57:35. > :57:39.Assembly Alastair was very disappointing. It was a huge fudge
:57:40. > :57:45.by the DUP in the face of an alleged -- in the face of an election. No
:57:46. > :57:51.one wants to defend a difficult and emotive issue when the canvassing
:57:52. > :57:55.for an election. There is a lot of scaremongering going on around this
:57:56. > :58:00.debate. We're not talking about abortion on demand. It is when
:58:01. > :58:06.families face the good and dramatic circumstances. We're not saying that
:58:07. > :58:11.every case of fatal foetal abnormality will end in abortion.
:58:12. > :58:16.Some people will choose to carry through the pregnancy. Not every
:58:17. > :58:23.case of incest will carry through to abortion, some people will... We're
:58:24. > :58:27.running out of time. Yes we do need the legislation. We need to allow
:58:28. > :58:37.women the opportunity is to have a say over their own bodies. The
:58:38. > :58:43.question is why is the law as it is? Because that is the democratic will
:58:44. > :58:48.of those who were elected. Why isn't like that because the proposal from
:58:49. > :58:52.the Alliance Party was to introduce discrimination in respect of
:58:53. > :58:59.disabled children, those who would be born unable to live beyond a
:59:00. > :59:05.short time. Not scaremongering. The proposer wanted to decide that those
:59:06. > :59:14.children could be aborted, able-bodied children could not be.
:59:15. > :59:21.Under the UN protection... You cannot link those two. I am sorry
:59:22. > :59:28.David Ford we have to finish year. We did our best. That is all for
:59:29. > :59:32.tonight. Thank you to our panel, our studio audience and you for
:59:33. > :59:36.watching. You can continue the debate online. Until the next time,
:59:37. > :59:39.a very good night.