0:00:02 > 0:00:06Van driver Robert Black, one of Britain's infamous child killers,
0:00:06 > 0:00:08died in Northern Ireland last month.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24He never admitted to any crime, but in these actual police
0:00:24 > 0:00:27interviews, he gave away some of his secrets.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38Nine-year-old Jennifer Cardy was one of his victims.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42The bogeyman was real, and he is out there.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45The scale of Black's offences shocked experts.
0:00:45 > 0:00:50His inner world was empty, bleak,
0:00:50 > 0:00:52disturbingly frightening.
0:00:52 > 0:00:57A sense of massive nothingness.
0:00:57 > 0:01:02He was most definitely evil, and he had went down the road of evil
0:01:02 > 0:01:05and just gathered evil as he went along.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09Tonight on Spotlight, the police officer,
0:01:09 > 0:01:12the predator and the end of his criminal career.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16He was feeling sorry for himself. It wasn't remorse.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19He has never shown remorse for what he did.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50The actual voice of serial child killer Robert Black.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52In these police interviews,
0:02:52 > 0:02:57he's outlining what he says are his fantasies about abusing young girls.
0:03:05 > 0:03:09Black was an opportunistic predator.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12He snatched schoolgirls off the streets in broad daylight,
0:03:12 > 0:03:15and drove off as fast as possible.
0:03:16 > 0:03:21It worked for him for 30 years, until one day, he made a mistake.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38Black's life of crime came to a sudden halt here in the small
0:03:38 > 0:03:43Scottish village of Stow, not far from the border with England.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47It was just by sheer chance that he was caught in the act of abducting
0:03:47 > 0:03:49a six-year-old girl.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03A neighbour raised the alarm
0:04:03 > 0:04:06when he saw a van driver behaving suspiciously.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11The driver jumped out with a rag in his hand.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18And I was aware at this time of a child walking on the pavement towards
0:04:18 > 0:04:19the back of the van.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26And then the next thing he made a slight movement,
0:04:26 > 0:04:29and the child seemed to disappear.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34Black sped off with the child.
0:04:34 > 0:04:39He found a quiet spot, parked up and sexually assaulted her.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44But he made the mistake of returning to the village.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50I turned to look up the road and shouted, "Oh, there's the van!"
0:04:50 > 0:04:53It is almost on top of us again.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56By that stage, the police were on the scene.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59So the policeman ran down, in front of the van,
0:04:59 > 0:05:02flagged him down, and he swerved across the road,
0:05:02 > 0:05:04the far kerb, and stopped.
0:05:08 > 0:05:12Policeman Ian Turnbull was on duty that day.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16He took us to the exact spot where Black abducted the girl.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19I went to the back of the van, found the back door was locked.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22I actually ran back over to the car
0:05:22 > 0:05:24and radioed in that we had got him stopped.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29And it was at that stage that my colleague told me
0:05:29 > 0:05:32that he thought she was in the back of the van.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37Ian Turnbull was about to make the most shocking discovery of his life.
0:05:44 > 0:05:48There was what looked like rags behind the driver's seat.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50And in amongst that was a sleeping bag.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56Inside the sleeping bag was his own daughter.
0:05:58 > 0:05:59There was tape on her mouth
0:05:59 > 0:06:03and her hands were tied with cord or some sort.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05And, yeah, that was it.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09Black had placed a cushion cover over her head,
0:06:09 > 0:06:12and forced her into the sleeping bag.
0:06:13 > 0:06:18- She must have been absolutely petrified.- Oh, absolutely terrified.
0:06:18 > 0:06:21Can you imagine a six-year-old lassie and a big bloke like
0:06:21 > 0:06:24Robert Black? That is absolutely petrifying.
0:06:31 > 0:06:36Black was found guilty of abduction and violent sexual assault
0:06:36 > 0:06:37and was jailed for life.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42It seemed his only regret was being caught.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06Even as he comforted his daughter in the van,
0:07:06 > 0:07:09Ian Turnbull recognised the man who had abducted her.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12Strange as it may seem,
0:07:12 > 0:07:17the 1983 incident with Caroline Hogg in Edinburgh, there was a Photofit.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20And believe it or not, I actually recognised
0:07:20 > 0:07:25him as a possibility for fitting that Photofit on that day.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29The police image that Ian Turnbull had recognised had been released
0:07:29 > 0:07:33in connection with the abduction of five-year-old Caroline Hogg.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37She had disappeared from a playground in Edinburgh
0:07:37 > 0:07:38seven years previously.
0:07:45 > 0:07:47The similarities between her abduction
0:07:47 > 0:07:51and the one in Stow sparked widespread police interest.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55Robert Black was now the focus of attention of a total of seven
0:07:55 > 0:07:57police forces...
0:07:57 > 0:08:03looking at unsolved abductions and murders going back 20 years.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07And it soon became clear that Black was the chief suspect.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12He was tried for the murders of Caroline Hogg
0:08:12 > 0:08:16and two other girls, Susan Maxwell and Sarah Harper.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22A 45-year-old man has been charged with murdering three girls.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27The killings had one thing in common.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32The victims had been snatched in broad daylight in seconds,
0:08:32 > 0:08:35and their bodies were dumped hundreds of miles away.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42'Police officers carried into court just a sample of over
0:08:42 > 0:08:46'1.25 million documents prepared during the investigation.'
0:08:48 > 0:08:51It was one of the biggest murder enquiries in Britain.
0:08:51 > 0:08:55Police compiled 20 tonnes of documents.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05At Newcastle Crown Court, Black denied everything.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07It didn't look like a strong case,
0:09:07 > 0:09:10but his employers had kept meticulous records of his
0:09:10 > 0:09:15deliveries that placed him in the areas where the girls had been abducted.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19And fuel receipts placed him close to where the bodies were dumped.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27'Robert Black has been found guilty of murdering three young
0:09:27 > 0:09:29'girls in the 1980s.'
0:09:32 > 0:09:35It was enough to get him three life sentences, to add to the
0:09:35 > 0:09:38one he was already serving in Scotland.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43Robert Black's pattern of offending had now been
0:09:43 > 0:09:46established in England and Scotland.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50It was a pattern that also fitted
0:09:50 > 0:09:53one unsolved murder case in Northern Ireland.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04It was a bright, sunny day in August 1981 when Robert Black
0:10:04 > 0:10:09drove down the A1 to Newry to deliver billboard posters.
0:10:13 > 0:10:17Jennifer Cardy had got a new bike, and had set off after lunch to
0:10:17 > 0:10:21visit a friend before going on holiday the next day.
0:10:22 > 0:10:27So, she was all hyped and excited.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30And this would have been her last day out, and because it was a new
0:10:30 > 0:10:35bicycle, she was so looking forward to doing that.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39And she wouldn't be out on it for another couple of weeks.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41This would be the last time.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45Pat Cardy set the time
0:10:45 > 0:10:48on Jennifer's watch before she left the house.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50It was 1:40.
0:10:50 > 0:10:54She was due home by four, but when she didn't show up,
0:10:54 > 0:10:56initially there was no panic.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58I, in all honesty, wasn't terribly worried
0:10:58 > 0:11:02because youngsters are youngsters, and the word paedophile was
0:11:02 > 0:11:04not in our vocabulary even then, I wouldn't have known
0:11:04 > 0:11:06what a paedophile was.
0:11:06 > 0:11:10And it's very hard sometimes to explain to younger people
0:11:10 > 0:11:14what it was like in them days. And there was no danger.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16Children cycled everywhere.
0:11:16 > 0:11:20And there was no danger, so I really wasn't...
0:11:20 > 0:11:22I wasn't unduly worried,
0:11:22 > 0:11:26but as the night wore on, then obviously we were, so we were.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30We then went out, and I started to search everywhere
0:11:30 > 0:11:35that we thought she would have went. And she never arrived anywhere.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38Jennifer's older brother Mark has never spoken
0:11:38 > 0:11:41publicly about what happened to his sister.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45I think it was around about 9pm.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49I remember my father driving up in the car, he came over to me.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51I wondered, "What's going on?"
0:11:51 > 0:11:54He said, "Did you see Jennifer, do you know where Jennifer is?"
0:11:54 > 0:11:57Jennifer's bicycle was found thrown over
0:11:57 > 0:12:00a hedge into a field about a mile from her home.
0:12:02 > 0:12:07Her bike was found, I think it was about...just about 12:30.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10You know, just after midnight that evening.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14I think then, of course, you had a sense of worry.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16And you didn't know what would happen.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28Up this lane-way here, and on we go.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35In the coming days, there was a huge search, with friends,
0:12:35 > 0:12:39family and strangers joining in.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46The police carried out a reconstruction.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53The search for the missing
0:12:53 > 0:12:56schoolgirl from County Antrim has been widened to Britain.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59Posters and descriptions of nine-year-old Jennifer Cardy, who
0:12:59 > 0:13:03disappeared from her home at Ballinderry near Lough Neagh last week...
0:13:03 > 0:13:08Time goes on and you think that every day without news
0:13:08 > 0:13:09means you've some hope left.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15But yet, every day without news seems to take some hope away.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21So you try and face the inevitable.
0:13:27 > 0:13:32After six days came the news that the Cardy family was dreading.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35It was really, really hard, for every one of us,
0:13:35 > 0:13:38and for the wider family. It was really hard.
0:13:38 > 0:13:43But on that day, um, I...
0:13:44 > 0:13:47We just knew we couldn't go on any longer. And...
0:13:49 > 0:13:53As a Christian, I just brought this again to the Lord
0:13:53 > 0:13:55and just said, "I can't go on."
0:13:55 > 0:13:59And really made a particular...
0:13:59 > 0:14:04prayer about it, and she was found that day.
0:14:11 > 0:14:16We had come to the point that we knew that, after six
0:14:16 > 0:14:20days, that there wasn't going to be a good outcome.
0:14:20 > 0:14:26And I think that we were expecting what we did eventually learn.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32Around the house it was, er, quiet.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35You know, just a quiet... I can't...
0:14:35 > 0:14:39I can't really put my finger on, you know...
0:14:39 > 0:14:43Of course, it was quite traumatic, but it was very quiet, you know,
0:14:43 > 0:14:45because we knew what had happened.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49Robert Black had killed Jennifer
0:14:49 > 0:14:53and left her body here at McKee's Dam,
0:14:53 > 0:14:56a lay-by on the main Belfast to Newry road.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01Her watch had stopped at 5:40.
0:15:01 > 0:15:05Police believe that was the time her body had been put in the water.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11Robert Black then drove off to get the overnight ferry home.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16We lived six days without knowing what had happened to our child,
0:15:16 > 0:15:20but at least at the end of six days
0:15:20 > 0:15:23we found out that she was passed away.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25I went to the morgue and identified her,
0:15:25 > 0:15:28and it was like a reunion in lots of ways.
0:15:28 > 0:15:32And it did, in lots of ways, give me relief, even though
0:15:32 > 0:15:35she was now dead. At least we knew.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41Let us pray.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46Mark Cardy was 13 when Jennifer died.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51I remember the funeral. I remember the funeral day.
0:15:51 > 0:15:55I remember the coffin...
0:15:55 > 0:15:59I think was carried the full way to the graveside,
0:15:59 > 0:16:02because a lot of people wanted to, you know, carry the coffin.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10At least we weren't going to live the rest of our lives
0:16:10 > 0:16:13wondering what happened.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16And the awfulness of that for the families that have not
0:16:16 > 0:16:21recovered bodies, or know exactly what happened to them.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23It's just so awful. It's just a living nightmare.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38McKee's Dam is hidden from view, well away from passing cars.
0:16:43 > 0:16:48It was exactly the sort of place Black liked to take his victims.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09He had driven the Belfast-Newry Road at least a dozen times.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17And he would have known that it was only a few steps
0:17:17 > 0:17:18to the water's edge.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28It would take another 30 years before Robert Black
0:17:28 > 0:17:31would face trial for killing Jennifer in 1981.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39But, after such a long gap in time,
0:17:39 > 0:17:41would it be possible to prove the case?
0:17:50 > 0:17:55Robert Black was born in Stirlingshire in Scotland in 1947.
0:18:03 > 0:18:05He was abandoned at birth by his mother
0:18:05 > 0:18:08and brought up by foster parents.
0:18:08 > 0:18:12They died when he was 11 and he was sent to a council home.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17- Richard.- Hello, Chris.- How are you?
0:18:17 > 0:18:19Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to us.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21Pleased to meet you.
0:18:21 > 0:18:25'Psychiatrist Dr Richard Badcock knew Robert Black better than most
0:18:25 > 0:18:28'and regularly met him in prison.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31'He believed he was damaged early on
0:18:31 > 0:18:34'by an isolated and difficult childhood.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38'And had been sexually abused before the age of five.'
0:18:39 > 0:18:41There's no doubt at all in my mind
0:18:41 > 0:18:44that he was seriously sexually abused as a child.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48Bill Nichol arrived at the same children's home at the age of 14.
0:18:49 > 0:18:54Among the boys sharing his dormitory was one two years younger.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57That was that boy, Robert Black, who we knew as Bobby Black.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59He wasn't a great friend of mine.
0:18:59 > 0:19:01Erm...
0:19:01 > 0:19:03we didn't have very much in common at all.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06Apart from the fact he was very more forward
0:19:06 > 0:19:10than he possibly should have been for his age,
0:19:10 > 0:19:13he didn't seem a total mess at all.
0:19:13 > 0:19:17He didn't seem a monster in the making, as it were.
0:19:17 > 0:19:22But, in fact, he was already showing signs of sexual violence by then.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25At the age of 12, he was kicked out of the home
0:19:25 > 0:19:29after he attempted to rape a young girl, who also lived there.
0:19:29 > 0:19:31Black moved out very quickly.
0:19:33 > 0:19:35Nothing, nothing was spoken about.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Not even between us, the children.
0:19:37 > 0:19:42You know, all the people who were there who knew each other. And...
0:19:42 > 0:19:43knew Black.
0:19:43 > 0:19:47Nobody... No one ever said to me,
0:19:47 > 0:19:50"Did you hear what Bobby Black tried to do to so-and-so?"
0:19:50 > 0:19:54He was swiftly dispatched to another care home.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57Black later told psychiatrists
0:19:57 > 0:20:00he was regularly abused there by a member of staff.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06Whatever the truth of his early life, by the time he left care
0:20:06 > 0:20:09in the early '60s, at the age of 15,
0:20:09 > 0:20:11he was already sexually dangerous.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19He lured a seven-year-old girl into an air raid shelter
0:20:19 > 0:20:22on the pretext of showing her some kittens.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24Once he'd got her there,
0:20:24 > 0:20:27he strangled her until she lost consciousness
0:20:27 > 0:20:28and then he sexually assaulted her.
0:20:30 > 0:20:35That would be the blueprint of his offending for the next 30 years.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38But a psychiatric report at the time concluded
0:20:38 > 0:20:40that this was an isolated incident
0:20:40 > 0:20:43and that Black would be unlikely to reoffend.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48Back then, I don't think people
0:20:48 > 0:20:52so automatically connected early abuse with later offending.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55But, again, now, it would be
0:20:55 > 0:20:57very clear to most people, I think,
0:20:57 > 0:21:00that a child in that position,
0:21:00 > 0:21:02doing those things,
0:21:02 > 0:21:05was acting out
0:21:05 > 0:21:08something left over from
0:21:08 > 0:21:11a highly adverse previous personal experience of a sexual nature.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16Today, that would be attempted murder.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19But Black got away with just a rap on the knuckles.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27That was a missed opportunity to stop Black in his tracks.
0:21:27 > 0:21:31A year later, he assaulted a nine-year-old girl.
0:21:31 > 0:21:33Again, the courts took a lenient view.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35His punishment?
0:21:35 > 0:21:37A year in borstal.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39Those failures of the Scottish legal system
0:21:39 > 0:21:44paved the way for Black to go on offending for three decades.
0:21:44 > 0:21:45And the question is,
0:21:45 > 0:21:47how did he get away with it for so long?
0:21:51 > 0:21:52When he got out of borstal,
0:21:52 > 0:21:56Black decided it was time to leave Scotland.
0:21:56 > 0:22:00In 1970, he moved to the anonymity of London
0:22:00 > 0:22:03and lodged here in an attic room in Stamford Hill.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07He got a job as a van driver,
0:22:07 > 0:22:10delivering billboard posters all over the UK.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13He wasn't a very sociable colleague,
0:22:13 > 0:22:15but he was on the darts team.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18He didn't go out with any of the mates in the team.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21Not as a social, like....
0:22:21 > 0:22:22He'd just...he was a loner.
0:22:22 > 0:22:24He done his own thing.
0:22:25 > 0:22:26We used to say, like,
0:22:26 > 0:22:29"Don't let him near your kids". But...
0:22:29 > 0:22:30it was kind of a joke. A semi-joke.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36He may have been regarded as odd,
0:22:36 > 0:22:38but he managed to keep his dark side hidden
0:22:38 > 0:22:41under the veneer of an ordinary life.
0:22:50 > 0:22:54His job as a van driver was to provide the perfect opportunity
0:22:54 > 0:22:56for a serial offender.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58His van was like a second home.
0:22:58 > 0:23:00He lived and slept in it.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05RECORDING:
0:23:10 > 0:23:12His job allowed him to...
0:23:12 > 0:23:14In fact, his job kind of encouraged him, even,
0:23:14 > 0:23:16to develop that...
0:23:16 > 0:23:18the erm...
0:23:18 > 0:23:22in the sense that he was a reasonably long distance van driver,
0:23:22 > 0:23:24so he was away for long periods of time,
0:23:24 > 0:23:27so it was quite natural for him to sort of base his whole life
0:23:27 > 0:23:29around his vehicle.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32And he got a lot of satisfaction from the fantasising he could do
0:23:32 > 0:23:35while he was driving around in the cab.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38TRAFFIC RUMBLES
0:23:38 > 0:23:41And he soon became obsessed with those fantasies.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44He volunteered for the long-haul routes
0:23:44 > 0:23:46that his work colleagues turned down.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50Among them, the Scotland and Northern Ireland deliveries.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54He had an encyclopaedic knowledge of the U.K.'s road network
0:23:54 > 0:23:57and liked to explore minor country roads.
0:24:08 > 0:24:12A total of seven police forces had questioned Black.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14He was serving four life sentences,
0:24:14 > 0:24:17but had never confessed to any crime.
0:24:17 > 0:24:22By 2005, 24 years after Jennifer Cardy was killed,
0:24:22 > 0:24:24it was the turn of the PSNI.
0:24:26 > 0:24:27RECORDING:
0:24:38 > 0:24:42If the PSNI were to have any chance of cracking him,
0:24:42 > 0:24:43they would need to be clever.
0:24:45 > 0:24:47Detective Constable Pamela Simpson
0:24:47 > 0:24:51had 12 years' experience of dealing with sex abuse victims
0:24:51 > 0:24:52in the PSNI Care Unit.
0:24:54 > 0:24:56There wasn't an awful lot that I hadn't
0:24:56 > 0:24:58heard about throughout interviews.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01And you learn not to show shock.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03You learn not to show horror.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05And you learn not to show emotion,
0:25:05 > 0:25:07whenever you are listening to things like that.
0:25:07 > 0:25:09And that was exactly what I did
0:25:09 > 0:25:12whenever I was speaking to Robert Black.
0:25:12 > 0:25:13Was it difficult sometimes?
0:25:13 > 0:25:15It was extremely difficult.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19She now found herself face to face
0:25:19 > 0:25:21with a convicted child killer.
0:25:23 > 0:25:25'It wasn't what I expected.
0:25:27 > 0:25:29'Knowing what I knew about the man,'
0:25:29 > 0:25:34I was expecting a harsh, gruff sort of man.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37- RECORDING: - '..during the interview.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40'Are you happy enough with that?
0:25:40 > 0:25:42- 'Yeah, so far.- OK.'
0:25:42 > 0:25:44He was very softly spoken.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46He had a soft Scottish lilt
0:25:46 > 0:25:49and, in fact, was very easy listening.
0:25:50 > 0:25:52Psychiatrist Dr Richard Badcock
0:25:52 > 0:25:56had advised the PSNI on how to question Black.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59RECORDING PLAYS
0:25:59 > 0:26:01'He didn't like the word...'
0:26:01 > 0:26:03murder. And...
0:26:03 > 0:26:06he was not someone to admit to anything.
0:26:06 > 0:26:08So, whenever we were interviewing him,
0:26:08 > 0:26:11when the questions were put to him, it was,
0:26:11 > 0:26:14"Do you accept that you were here that day?"
0:26:16 > 0:26:20Pamela Simpson was surprised that he was willing to engage with her.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24'I think everyone was surprised at that,
0:26:24 > 0:26:27'because nobody knew before we went into the interviews
0:26:27 > 0:26:29'whether he was even going to talk at all.'
0:26:29 > 0:26:32And, for some unknown reason,
0:26:32 > 0:26:35he felt comfortable talking to myself.
0:26:35 > 0:26:36'She was open with him,
0:26:36 > 0:26:39'she gave him sort of direct, immediate feedback'
0:26:39 > 0:26:42and he responded to that very positively.
0:26:44 > 0:26:45RECORDING:
0:27:14 > 0:27:19The police had worked on a strategy for their interviews with Black.
0:27:19 > 0:27:22'We had a very clear strategy, in that respect,'
0:27:22 > 0:27:25that, whenever we were speaking to him,
0:27:25 > 0:27:28we wanted him to open up about...
0:27:28 > 0:27:32his sexual preferences, his fantasies.
0:27:32 > 0:27:35And, basically, that is the strategy
0:27:35 > 0:27:37that we went into the interview with.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43The PSNI officers interviewed Black for three days.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48Their strategy started to pay off
0:27:48 > 0:27:51and he began to describe his fantasies.
0:27:53 > 0:27:57RECORDING:
0:28:20 > 0:28:25Dr Badcock, in his role as psychiatric adviser to the PSNI,
0:28:25 > 0:28:28had listened in to the 2005 interviews
0:28:28 > 0:28:31from an adjoining room.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34We played the interviews for him again.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37'The bit about sort of trying to guess the age of the child,'
0:28:37 > 0:28:39that's not the whole story.
0:28:39 > 0:28:40Because he would...
0:28:42 > 0:28:44..he would make a judgement about that immediately.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Erm, I think what he's...
0:28:47 > 0:28:49what he's thinking about is,
0:28:49 > 0:28:51"What would she look like undressed?"
0:28:52 > 0:28:55Pamela Simpson kept encouraging Black to talk.
0:28:57 > 0:28:59RECORDING:
0:29:26 > 0:29:29The police knew that children wouldn't willingly engage
0:29:29 > 0:29:30with Black in this way.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35The police asked Black about how, in his fantasy,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38he would get a young girl into his van.
0:29:41 > 0:29:42RECORDING:
0:31:12 > 0:31:16Jennifer Cardy had been wearing trousers when she went missing.
0:31:18 > 0:31:21Pamela Simpson's question was aimed at getting Black
0:31:21 > 0:31:23to discuss his abduction of her.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26He had carefully dodged the question.
0:31:30 > 0:31:32RECORDING:
0:31:46 > 0:31:49- And that very long pause.- Mm-hm.
0:31:49 > 0:31:51Do you attach any significance to that?
0:31:51 > 0:31:52Oh, yeah, course. Yes.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55All Robert's pauses are significant.
0:31:55 > 0:31:56Erm...
0:31:56 > 0:31:59It's not because he's thinking about the answer,
0:31:59 > 0:32:02it's because he's trying not to give stuff away.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12RECORDING:
0:33:15 > 0:33:19With the use of the term "passively compliant",
0:33:19 > 0:33:22it was becoming clear to the police that Black was starting to describe
0:33:22 > 0:33:24some of his actual crimes,
0:33:24 > 0:33:27in which he rendered the girls unconscious.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33In the situation where he is sexually aroused,
0:33:33 > 0:33:36he doesn't want another presence at all.
0:33:37 > 0:33:41It's important to him that he is the only presence there.
0:33:41 > 0:33:43Erm, so...
0:33:48 > 0:33:52Hoping that the child would enjoy it is...
0:33:52 > 0:33:55again, it's something that...
0:33:55 > 0:33:57that he would...
0:33:57 > 0:34:00perhaps like to be the case.
0:34:00 > 0:34:01But it isn't.
0:34:01 > 0:34:02And he knows it isn't.
0:34:02 > 0:34:05You know, he wants the child not there.
0:34:05 > 0:34:06Just the body, really.
0:34:09 > 0:34:10RECORDING:
0:34:53 > 0:34:56Here, Black was describing what happened in Stow,
0:34:56 > 0:35:00when he put a cushion cover over the head of the six-year-old girl
0:35:00 > 0:35:02he'd forced into his van.
0:35:06 > 0:35:09RECORDING:
0:35:24 > 0:35:26- RECORDING: - I say, in your fantasies,
0:35:26 > 0:35:28you never pick up an awkward customer.
0:35:28 > 0:35:30- You're lucky that way.- Right, OK.
0:35:36 > 0:35:41Black had no shame in describing his sexual desires for young girls.
0:35:41 > 0:35:43But he seemed to get embarrassed
0:35:43 > 0:35:47when Pamela Simpson asked him about sex aids found in his van.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52They were used for sadomasochistic purposes
0:35:52 > 0:35:55to inflict pain on himself, as he was driving.
0:35:56 > 0:36:01This is one of the areas which he acknowledges is deeply personal.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04A lot of the very personal things he doesn't acknowledge.
0:36:04 > 0:36:06But this area is one.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09You know, because he has devoted a considerable part of his life
0:36:09 > 0:36:11to pursuing it.
0:36:12 > 0:36:14RECORDING:
0:36:42 > 0:36:45That was the one moment where he appeared to lose his cool,
0:36:45 > 0:36:48when she was questioning him about the sex aids
0:36:48 > 0:36:50that he carried in his van.
0:36:50 > 0:36:52He was ashamed in front of Pamela.
0:36:52 > 0:36:55She was a very good interviewing officer.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58She had a very naturalistic, non-judgemental style.
0:36:58 > 0:37:00And he responded to that very positively.
0:37:06 > 0:37:10But even though his scenarios represented as fantasies,
0:37:10 > 0:37:14the police soon realised he was in fact describing reality.
0:37:46 > 0:37:51Whenever we looked at the case after the interviews,
0:37:51 > 0:37:56we felt that in actual fact he had put himself back into that
0:37:56 > 0:37:59position and that he was actually there.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03If you go by the description that he had given in his fantasy,
0:38:03 > 0:38:08the high hedges and the roads sweeping down and up to the left,
0:38:08 > 0:38:14that is exactly the same scene where Jennifer was taken from.
0:38:23 > 0:38:27The final interview, my colleague was putting everything to him
0:38:27 > 0:38:30that we had proved throughout the previous interviews.
0:38:30 > 0:38:34It was evident, as we were going through those last interviews,
0:38:34 > 0:38:37that Black realised himself that he had said too much.
0:38:39 > 0:38:43The head went down, he lost eye contact with us.
0:38:43 > 0:38:46And at the very end of the interview, whenever the tapes
0:38:46 > 0:38:50were off, he knew at that stage that he had said too much.
0:38:54 > 0:39:00It was clear that although the questions were about his fantasies,
0:39:00 > 0:39:02which he was happy to talk about,
0:39:02 > 0:39:06what he was actually talking about were his exact decision-making
0:39:06 > 0:39:09processes during actual offences.
0:39:09 > 0:39:13And you could tell that from his naturalistic language and his
0:39:13 > 0:39:17body language and the whole way in which he presented information.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21So that was very helpful, because that did fill in a few gaps,
0:39:21 > 0:39:24really, about what had actually happened.
0:39:26 > 0:39:30In 2011, Robert Black went on trial in Northern Ireland
0:39:30 > 0:39:32for the murder of Jennifer Cardy.
0:39:34 > 0:39:40There was no forensic evidence, no admission and no eyewitnesses.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44The recorded police interviews would be crucial in getting a conviction.
0:39:45 > 0:39:50Black listened impassively from the dock. A short distance away in the
0:39:50 > 0:39:54public gallery, Jennifer's father, mother, two brothers and sister
0:39:54 > 0:39:58were joined by a large group made up of other family members and friends.
0:40:02 > 0:40:06The Cardy family came face-to-face with Black 30 years after
0:40:06 > 0:40:07he had taken Jennifer.
0:40:10 > 0:40:14We went to this court not wanting to be there,
0:40:14 > 0:40:17not wanting to see his face.
0:40:17 > 0:40:23I thought we were going to hear a pathetic excuse of his bad
0:40:23 > 0:40:27upbringing, which made him do these things.
0:40:28 > 0:40:32And OK, there may be just cause for that.
0:40:32 > 0:40:34But I didn't want to hear that.
0:40:34 > 0:40:39I didn't want to hear of somebody being neglected in their childhood.
0:40:39 > 0:40:43And because of that... Or being abusing their childhood.
0:40:43 > 0:40:47And because of that, having it ingrained in them
0:40:47 > 0:40:50that they would do this to others.
0:40:53 > 0:40:58The first time I saw him, I don't know what I thought, you know,
0:40:58 > 0:41:01you just saw someone who's probably killed my sister.
0:41:01 > 0:41:06And... I never felt hatred, I would have liked to maybe
0:41:06 > 0:41:10just understood, to just know, why would he do that?
0:41:13 > 0:41:16- Did Black ever look at you? - Never once.
0:41:16 > 0:41:21Never once in Armagh Court, never once did he ever look at any of us.
0:41:21 > 0:41:27He walked up from underneath... The cells were underneath the floor.
0:41:27 > 0:41:30He came up the staircase and turned round and
0:41:30 > 0:41:35went and sat in his seat and just looked in front of him, expressionless.
0:41:35 > 0:41:39And he never once, never once looked at us.
0:41:41 > 0:41:46It was quite harrowing to see the man that you know was
0:41:46 > 0:41:49the last human being your daughter seen.
0:41:49 > 0:41:54And when I saw him walking and seen how old-looking he was,
0:41:54 > 0:41:58same age as me, a year older than me, and how old-looking he was,
0:41:58 > 0:42:01and he was quite pathetic-looking in lots of ways, you know?
0:42:03 > 0:42:06What the Cardy family learned in court about Black
0:42:06 > 0:42:08was beyond their comprehension.
0:42:10 > 0:42:13We had to listen to what he had in the van.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16Instruments that he could use on these children.
0:42:16 > 0:42:21And it just broke your heart. We just sat and cried. It was...
0:42:21 > 0:42:23It broke your heart to see
0:42:23 > 0:42:29and know that a man had done things that were beyond your imagination.
0:42:29 > 0:42:34It wasn't even in your imagination to do what he wanted to do and did,
0:42:34 > 0:42:36and it just broke your heart.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42There's no doubt Black's recorded interviews were harrowing to hear.
0:42:42 > 0:42:46But they were a crucial part of the evidence presented in court.
0:42:49 > 0:42:53Well, he went further than he ever, ever would have wanted to go,
0:42:53 > 0:42:56and there was no taking that back.
0:42:56 > 0:43:00It added to the whole similar fact,
0:43:00 > 0:43:06bad character, and out of his own mouth, he nailed himself.
0:43:06 > 0:43:08- That's the way I look at it.- Yeah.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14The police interview strategy had worked.
0:43:14 > 0:43:19In 2011, Black was convicted of Jennifer Cardy's murder
0:43:19 > 0:43:21and given another life sentence.
0:43:22 > 0:43:26This time he was sent to Maghaberry Prison.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29By now, he was serving five life sentences.
0:43:34 > 0:43:39Satisfaction knowing that Robert Black will never again
0:43:39 > 0:43:42walk the streets of Great Britain.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45Never again will be able to torture little girls.
0:43:45 > 0:43:50Because that's what he did. He tortured little girls, so he did.
0:43:50 > 0:43:52So there's a lot of satisfaction in today.
0:43:52 > 0:43:57It is not just the convicting of killing Jennifer, it's just, you know...
0:43:57 > 0:43:59How many times has he done it?
0:44:03 > 0:44:05We know he had three murder convictions before,
0:44:05 > 0:44:07this is the fourth one.
0:44:07 > 0:44:09And we know there's a number of suspected ones,
0:44:09 > 0:44:12maybe dating from as far back as 1969.
0:44:15 > 0:44:17Knowing that someone could have done that,
0:44:17 > 0:44:21and done that year upon year upon year and not have got caught.
0:44:24 > 0:44:27After 30 years of secret offending,
0:44:27 > 0:44:30Robert Black's crimes were finally made public.
0:44:31 > 0:44:35What's never really been made clear is what turned this
0:44:35 > 0:44:38opportunistic predator into a murderer.
0:44:41 > 0:44:45He has to take responsibility for what he did in terms of offending.
0:44:45 > 0:44:47The person who abused him
0:44:47 > 0:44:52has to take responsibility for starting the process.
0:44:52 > 0:44:54Or the PERSONS who abused him
0:44:54 > 0:44:57have to take responsibility for starting it off.
0:44:57 > 0:45:02- By the time he was an adult, it was too late.- I think so.
0:45:02 > 0:45:04So, by the time he was an adult,
0:45:04 > 0:45:09had he developed that instinct to kill as well as to sexually assault?
0:45:09 > 0:45:12It seems a terrible thing to say,
0:45:12 > 0:45:17but I believe he had no interest in killing children.
0:45:17 > 0:45:19What he had an interest in, in fact an obsession
0:45:19 > 0:45:23and fascination for, was in possessing the body
0:45:23 > 0:45:29of a child for a period long enough for him to be able to
0:45:29 > 0:45:33develop, or enact, fantasies.
0:45:36 > 0:45:41Whatever caused Black to become a serial killer of young girls,
0:45:41 > 0:45:43he never appeared to show remorse.
0:45:43 > 0:45:47However, he did seem to have a complicated insight
0:45:47 > 0:45:49into his own behaviour.
0:46:58 > 0:47:00Do you think, though, that that
0:47:00 > 0:47:04was the closest perhaps he ever came to showing any kind of remorse at all?
0:47:06 > 0:47:09No. My attitude to that was that
0:47:09 > 0:47:12he was feeling sorry for himself.
0:47:12 > 0:47:17It wasn't remorse. He's never shown remorse for what he did.
0:47:17 > 0:47:19Again, that was the ilk of the man.
0:47:21 > 0:47:23He was feeling sorry for himself.
0:47:24 > 0:47:28Over the years, Black was examined by numerous psychiatrists
0:47:28 > 0:47:31and psychologists. He once asked one of them
0:47:31 > 0:47:34if he was evil or mad.
0:47:34 > 0:47:37He was never diagnosed as insane.
0:47:39 > 0:47:42I think Robert Black was most definitely not mad.
0:47:42 > 0:47:47He most definitely was evil. And he had went down the road of evil
0:47:47 > 0:47:50and just gathered evil as he went along.
0:47:50 > 0:47:55And I would have said that he was just 100% evil
0:47:55 > 0:47:57but he certainly wasn't mad.
0:47:57 > 0:48:00I think he was actually quite intelligent, so he was.
0:48:04 > 0:48:08But Black did have what mental health experts viewed
0:48:08 > 0:48:13as a personality disorder, making him devoid of normal emotions.
0:48:15 > 0:48:18Why did he have no conscience?
0:48:18 > 0:48:21Well, the thing about sadomasochistic psychopathology is
0:48:21 > 0:48:25that over time it empties you of the things that make us human,
0:48:25 > 0:48:29because the things that make us human are essentially
0:48:29 > 0:48:32relationships with the outside world,
0:48:32 > 0:48:36relationships with other people, so he was lost.
0:48:36 > 0:48:41His inner world was empty, dystonic,
0:48:41 > 0:48:44bleak...
0:48:44 > 0:48:49disturbingly frightening, overwhelming,
0:48:49 > 0:48:56a sense of massive nothingness, a deadness.
0:48:56 > 0:49:00If you like, what he was trying to escape all the time
0:49:00 > 0:49:03was a sense of deadness that was growing within him.
0:49:06 > 0:49:11'Bill Nicol, whose childhood briefly overlapped with Robert Black's in the Scottish care home,'
0:49:11 > 0:49:15went on to have a distinguished military career.
0:49:16 > 0:49:17Were you surprised, then,
0:49:17 > 0:49:21whenever Black emerged as a serial child killer?
0:49:21 > 0:49:23Did that come as a shock to you?
0:49:23 > 0:49:27Oh, absolutely horrendous shock.
0:49:27 > 0:49:29As I say, it took a while
0:49:29 > 0:49:30for it to register with me that
0:49:30 > 0:49:33it was the person that I could remember.
0:49:33 > 0:49:36I mean, all the photographs that came into the media,
0:49:36 > 0:49:40they did try and portray him as a monster and looking like a monster.
0:49:42 > 0:49:45Black was convicted of four murders,
0:49:45 > 0:49:50but police believe he was responsible for as many as 12 more,
0:49:50 > 0:49:53among them Genette Tate from Devonshire,
0:49:53 > 0:49:56Silke Garben from Germany,
0:49:56 > 0:49:59and Sabine Dumont from Paris,
0:49:59 > 0:50:02and those families never got answers.
0:50:05 > 0:50:08Black died in Maghaberry Prison last month.
0:50:08 > 0:50:12He died, as he lived, alone.
0:50:12 > 0:50:14There was no-one to claim his body.
0:50:15 > 0:50:19He was cremated secretly at Roselawn Cemetery in Belfast,
0:50:19 > 0:50:22outside normal hours.
0:50:22 > 0:50:24His ashes were scattered at sea.
0:50:24 > 0:50:26There were no mourners.
0:50:27 > 0:50:31As a final act of cruelty, Black chose not to reveal
0:50:31 > 0:50:34where he left the bodies of his other victims.
0:50:36 > 0:50:38His secrets died with him.
0:50:42 > 0:50:44This will be on my heart forever.
0:50:46 > 0:50:52I always wanted to talk to Robert Black.
0:50:52 > 0:50:53Can I say that?
0:50:55 > 0:51:02And I wanted to say to him, "Look... You're the same age as me.
0:51:02 > 0:51:08"You've never done anything good with your life.
0:51:08 > 0:51:12"Why can you not do just one thing good,
0:51:12 > 0:51:16"to tell one family where the body of their child is?"
0:51:16 > 0:51:18- Yeah.- "You know you can do that."
0:51:20 > 0:51:22That's what I would like.
0:51:22 > 0:51:24And I never got the chance.
0:51:27 > 0:51:30The family of the policeman who rescued his six-year-old daughter
0:51:30 > 0:51:34from Robert Black's van continue to count their blessings.
0:51:37 > 0:51:39Because it ended the way it did
0:51:39 > 0:51:41and we actually got our daughter
0:51:41 > 0:51:43back again, we actually look on it
0:51:43 > 0:51:46as good fortune rather than anything else.
0:51:46 > 0:51:48We dinna dwell on it in any way, shape or form.
0:51:48 > 0:51:51So I just sort of spotted it coming back down the drive...
0:51:51 > 0:51:55'Ian Turnbull's daughter has recovered well from her ordeal
0:51:55 > 0:51:58'and has got on with her life. The day we interviewed him'
0:51:58 > 0:52:02he heard the news that she had given birth to a child of her own.
0:52:04 > 0:52:08For the Cardy family, there is a life sentence of grief.
0:52:13 > 0:52:17The place where Jennifer was taken is just a mile from the family home.
0:52:21 > 0:52:24We felt an impact, especially when
0:52:24 > 0:52:28it comes up to things like holiday times and Christmas times, you know,
0:52:28 > 0:52:31of course you felt the loss.
0:52:31 > 0:52:35Sometimes we went on maybe caravan holidays at that stage
0:52:35 > 0:52:40and...and now, the back seat of the car wasn't full.
0:52:40 > 0:52:43There was two in the back seat of the car and not three.
0:52:46 > 0:52:47I remember Jennifer very fondly.
0:52:47 > 0:52:51She was a very caring person and we had our times together,
0:52:51 > 0:52:56you know, bickering of course playing together. We had good times.
0:52:56 > 0:52:58And what sort of games would you play?
0:52:58 > 0:53:01Well, sometimes, there was the wee set,
0:53:01 > 0:53:05and I kept a couple of the wee instruments.
0:53:05 > 0:53:11We played with this here, this is a wee, like a wee village
0:53:11 > 0:53:14- and sometimes we would play... - Was that yours?
0:53:14 > 0:53:17No, that is actually Jennifer's and I've kept that,
0:53:17 > 0:53:20I've kept that, I never...
0:53:20 > 0:53:23I was never one for, you know, having shrines,
0:53:23 > 0:53:27and none of our family are, but we all have our wee special pieces
0:53:27 > 0:53:31and that's... I've kept that, that's my wee special piece.
0:53:31 > 0:53:34That's your special memory of Jennifer?
0:53:34 > 0:53:37Yes, I have great memories of playing with that with Jennifer.
0:53:50 > 0:53:54Memories of Robert Black still cast a shadow over many lives.
0:53:56 > 0:54:01It's something that I think about quite a lot
0:54:01 > 0:54:06and I travel the A1 carriageway several times in week
0:54:06 > 0:54:14past McKee's Dam, and there's not a time that I don't go past that dam
0:54:14 > 0:54:18when I don't think of Jennifer and her last moments
0:54:18 > 0:54:20and the Cardy family.
0:54:22 > 0:54:25So, yes, it is something that I will take to my grave with me.