1:36:27 > 1:36:30Right, can everybody hear me at the back?
1:36:30 > 1:36:33- SHOUTING - Can you hear me?
1:36:33 > 1:36:36We're going to move off to Number 10.
1:36:36 > 1:36:40These men are British Army veterans of the Troubles.
1:36:40 > 1:36:44The way we're going to do it is in an orderly fashion.
1:36:44 > 1:36:47Former soldiers on the march.
1:36:47 > 1:36:50Proud to have served the Queen.
1:36:52 > 1:36:56But now, angrily challenging the very state they served
1:36:56 > 1:36:57in Northern Ireland.
1:36:57 > 1:37:01There's a foul smell that emanates from that house over there.
1:37:01 > 1:37:02SHOUTS OF AGREEMENT
1:37:05 > 1:37:08It's the smell of fear.
1:37:08 > 1:37:10It's the smell of cowardice.
1:37:10 > 1:37:12It's the smell of betrayal.
1:37:12 > 1:37:14They are betraying us
1:37:14 > 1:37:16because they don't care.
1:37:21 > 1:37:25This former member of the SAS stormed the Iranian Embassy
1:37:25 > 1:37:28in London in 1980.
1:37:28 > 1:37:31Now speaking out against the Government,
1:37:31 > 1:37:34his hand shook as he called for an end to investigations
1:37:34 > 1:37:36of Army killings.
1:37:37 > 1:37:40Margaret Thatcher would turn in her grave!
1:37:40 > 1:37:42SHOUTS OF AGREEMENT
1:37:48 > 1:37:54She would turn in her grave to see what is happening to her boys today.
1:37:56 > 1:37:57Thank you.
1:38:02 > 1:38:05Old soldiers marching on Downing Street
1:38:05 > 1:38:07isn't really much of a threat to the Government,
1:38:07 > 1:38:11but it does illustrate the political minefield
1:38:11 > 1:38:14opening up in front of Theresa May.
1:38:17 > 1:38:20The veterans want to stop new investigations
1:38:20 > 1:38:23into Army killings during the Troubles.
1:38:23 > 1:38:26They have been energised by a scathing Parliamentary report
1:38:26 > 1:38:28that forced the Government to shut down
1:38:28 > 1:38:33the Iraq Historical Allegations Team, known as IHAT,
1:38:33 > 1:38:37after allegations that it had turned into a witch-hunt against soldiers.
1:38:39 > 1:38:43They now want a similar intervention in Northern Ireland,
1:38:43 > 1:38:45just when Mrs May and her Government
1:38:45 > 1:38:49have to figure out how to put Stormont back together again.
1:38:51 > 1:38:53The Prime Minister could be forgiven
1:38:53 > 1:38:57for thinking that her predecessors had dealt with Northern Ireland.
1:38:57 > 1:39:02But now it's dropping back on to the political agenda.
1:39:02 > 1:39:05Good morning, comrades. I'm delighted to be here...
1:39:05 > 1:39:08Jeffrey Donaldson wants a statute of limitations
1:39:08 > 1:39:12that would stop police from reinvestigating incidents
1:39:12 > 1:39:14involving soldiers from decades ago.
1:39:17 > 1:39:20What we're talking about here are historic investigations,
1:39:20 > 1:39:25investigations that in some cases go back over 40 years.
1:39:25 > 1:39:28They've been investigated by the police,
1:39:28 > 1:39:31and the statute of limitations would relate
1:39:31 > 1:39:33to reopening investigations.
1:39:35 > 1:39:39But Sinn Fein says the soldiers are looking for special treatment.
1:39:41 > 1:39:45There's an accountability deficit we're dealing with here.
1:39:45 > 1:39:48What we're dealing with, the vast majority of these
1:39:48 > 1:39:51state killings were done by the British Army,
1:39:51 > 1:39:54and frankly they have been acting with impunity,
1:39:54 > 1:39:59and now what we're hearing from MPs over in Westminster, and others,
1:39:59 > 1:40:02including some Unionists, is saying that they should have immunity.
1:40:02 > 1:40:04And these are the people who stated
1:40:04 > 1:40:06that they were absolutely against immunity,
1:40:06 > 1:40:07and they're trying to legalise it.
1:40:07 > 1:40:10You cannot legalise immunity for murder.
1:40:12 > 1:40:16This man is the immediate focus of the veterans' campaign.
1:40:19 > 1:40:23Dennis Hutchings, like the other former soldiers, is angry.
1:40:23 > 1:40:30The majority of our MPs from this and previous governments,
1:40:30 > 1:40:34and I also include those buggers who sit in the MOD,
1:40:34 > 1:40:41have spent millions on setting up inquiries like HET,
1:40:41 > 1:40:45IHAT, Afghanistan, etc, etc,
1:40:45 > 1:40:50and have done absolutely bloody nothing for us!
1:40:50 > 1:40:52SHOUTS OF AGREEMENT
1:40:52 > 1:40:56In his case, the anger is personal.
1:40:56 > 1:41:00Well, today is wake-up day for them,
1:41:00 > 1:41:04because the vast majority of the people
1:41:04 > 1:41:07of this United Kingdom support us.
1:41:07 > 1:41:10CHEERING
1:41:10 > 1:41:13Dennis Hutchings isn't just an Army veteran.
1:41:13 > 1:41:18The Crown has also accused the 75-year-old of being a criminal.
1:41:23 > 1:41:2743 years ago, on this road outside Benburb,
1:41:27 > 1:41:29Dennis Hutchings was part of an Army patrol
1:41:29 > 1:41:31that shot John Pat Cunningham,
1:41:31 > 1:41:35a 27-year-old man with a learning disability.
1:41:35 > 1:41:40The Ministry of Defence apologised for the killing four years ago.
1:41:43 > 1:41:44Later this month,
1:41:44 > 1:41:48Dennis Hutchings is due to appear in a court in Northern Ireland
1:41:48 > 1:41:50to answer the charge that his role in the shooting
1:41:50 > 1:41:54amounted to the attempted murder of John Pat Cunningham.
1:41:54 > 1:41:57He will be the first soldier to stand trial
1:41:57 > 1:42:00on a Troubles-related charge for almost two decades.
1:42:05 > 1:42:07And another prosecution is coming.
1:42:07 > 1:42:10Two former members of the Parachute Regiment
1:42:10 > 1:42:13are expected to be charged with murdering the man
1:42:13 > 1:42:18in this famous photograph - official IRA gunman Joe McCann,
1:42:18 > 1:42:22as he ran from a patrol in 1972.
1:42:23 > 1:42:27Veterans thought their connection to the Troubles ended years ago,
1:42:27 > 1:42:30but each new case, according to the Prosecution Service,
1:42:30 > 1:42:33involves new evidence.
1:42:33 > 1:42:36And hundreds more soldiers are due to be scrutinised
1:42:36 > 1:42:39by the PSNI's legacy unit.
1:42:41 > 1:42:42What about those people who would say,
1:42:42 > 1:42:45you are not exempt from prosecution, you're not above the law either?
1:42:45 > 1:42:48Nobody here would claim to be exempt.
1:42:48 > 1:42:51If anybody here has done an offence,
1:42:51 > 1:42:54we would be the first ones, first of all to report it,
1:42:54 > 1:42:56and accept the punishment.
1:42:56 > 1:42:58We would advocate if a soldier has done wrong,
1:42:58 > 1:43:01they should be prosecuted.
1:43:01 > 1:43:03What we are objecting to is that some people
1:43:03 > 1:43:07do not get prosecuted and we do.
1:43:07 > 1:43:10It is that equality of treatment that we are fighting for
1:43:10 > 1:43:12and demonstrating for today.
1:43:16 > 1:43:19At Downing Street, veterans handed in a letter,
1:43:19 > 1:43:22demanding an end to the prosecutions.
1:43:22 > 1:43:26They also want the prosecutor who ordered the first case,
1:43:26 > 1:43:30Barra McGrory, sacked, because his former legal clients
1:43:30 > 1:43:34include Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein.
1:43:34 > 1:43:39Mr McGrory says his decisions are impartial and he has been defended
1:43:39 > 1:43:41by Secretary of State James Brokenshire.
1:43:43 > 1:43:45But Mr Brokenshire also said the system
1:43:45 > 1:43:48for investigating historic cases in Northern Ireland
1:43:48 > 1:43:52is not working and needs to be overhauled.
1:43:52 > 1:43:54His boss also had something to say.
1:43:54 > 1:43:56In the case of Northern Ireland,
1:43:56 > 1:43:5990% of deaths were caused by terrorists,
1:43:59 > 1:44:02and it's essential that the justice system reflects this.
1:44:02 > 1:44:05It would be entirely wrong to treat terrorists more favourably
1:44:05 > 1:44:07than soldiers or police officers.
1:44:07 > 1:44:09Now the storm raised by the soldiers
1:44:09 > 1:44:12has blown well beyond Westminster.
1:44:13 > 1:44:16So far, the campaign by Northern Ireland veterans
1:44:16 > 1:44:19has had the impact they wanted.
1:44:19 > 1:44:21Cabinet Ministers have supported them,
1:44:21 > 1:44:24the Prime Minister has even weighed in.
1:44:24 > 1:44:27But there has been another unintended effect -
1:44:27 > 1:44:32their campaign has become highly political in Northern Ireland.
1:44:37 > 1:44:39In the aftermath of last week's election,
1:44:39 > 1:44:43the prosecution of former soldiers looks like another issue
1:44:43 > 1:44:48that complicates Northern Ireland's already tangled legacy debate.
1:44:53 > 1:44:57A debate bedevilled by the equal treatment of victims,
1:44:57 > 1:45:00the State's refusal to release information
1:45:00 > 1:45:03that it deems necessary to national security,
1:45:03 > 1:45:05and the funding of inquests,
1:45:05 > 1:45:08which Sinn Fein says prompted it to break off its meeting
1:45:08 > 1:45:10with the Secretary of State today.
1:45:10 > 1:45:15Before the election, this mainly Unionist victims' group in Cookstown
1:45:15 > 1:45:18heard warnings about the growing controversy.
1:45:19 > 1:45:21There's going to be talks.
1:45:21 > 1:45:23You know one of the bargaining chips that's going to be in it?
1:45:23 > 1:45:25It's going to be victims' issues.
1:45:25 > 1:45:28And when it comes down to it, it will be a trade off.
1:45:30 > 1:45:33The very same night, Sinn Fein's new Northern leader
1:45:33 > 1:45:37accused the British Government of trying to cover up the past.
1:45:39 > 1:45:43They don't want the world to know what they did in our country.
1:45:43 > 1:45:46They don't want the world to know about the death squads,
1:45:46 > 1:45:47about shoot-to-kill,
1:45:47 > 1:45:50about the torture and the full extent of collusion.
1:45:55 > 1:46:00In Portadown, the leader of unionism told victims at a campaign rally
1:46:00 > 1:46:03that she will not tolerate the pursuit of the security forces.
1:46:05 > 1:46:09I would rather be out of power for a generation
1:46:09 > 1:46:13than in power on the backs of those people
1:46:13 > 1:46:15who gave everything to serve our community.
1:46:15 > 1:46:17Those who defended us,
1:46:17 > 1:46:23those who put themselves between us and the terrorists,
1:46:23 > 1:46:29I am not going to allow those people to be sacrificed
1:46:29 > 1:46:32on the altar of political expediency.
1:46:32 > 1:46:33I have to say.
1:46:33 > 1:46:35- Hear, hear. - APPLAUSE
1:46:45 > 1:46:49That's the general manager's house, where my mother was brought up.
1:46:49 > 1:46:51For the first time in decades,
1:46:51 > 1:46:54Andrew Sayers is back in Belleek, County Fermanagh,
1:46:54 > 1:46:56his mother's hometown.
1:46:57 > 1:47:01The earliest memory I've got is looking at a picture of my mother
1:47:01 > 1:47:04standing at the back of this house in the garden.
1:47:04 > 1:47:09Once, Andrew's family was Belleek Pottery.
1:47:09 > 1:47:11They ran the factory for two generations.
1:47:13 > 1:47:15- That looks like the pile of pots. - Yeah.
1:47:15 > 1:47:19They'd failed quality control and I was allowed to smash them,
1:47:19 > 1:47:22with full permission, because they weren't going to be sold.
1:47:25 > 1:47:30Like his ancestors, Andrew also came to work in Belleek.
1:47:31 > 1:47:35But he flew in under the cover of darkness and hid in the hedgerows,
1:47:35 > 1:47:40carrying out special operations as an Army officer.
1:47:40 > 1:47:41We came up the valley,
1:47:41 > 1:47:43put the helicopter down behind the high ground.
1:47:43 > 1:47:46It was dark and the idea was to ensure
1:47:46 > 1:47:49that nobody could see where we were disembarking the troops.
1:47:49 > 1:47:51You spent your holidays here as a boy.
1:47:51 > 1:47:54Your mum grew up in the house beside Belleek Pottery,
1:47:54 > 1:47:57and yet you came back here under cover of darkness.
1:47:57 > 1:47:59What was that like?
1:47:59 > 1:48:00It felt horrible.
1:48:00 > 1:48:03Just down the hill from my aunt's house.
1:48:03 > 1:48:06And I knew that if I had climbed the hill from
1:48:06 > 1:48:08100 yards down there,
1:48:08 > 1:48:10I would have been welcomed and given a cup of tea.
1:48:10 > 1:48:12- This was hostile territory...- Yes.
1:48:12 > 1:48:14Did you regard these people as the enemy?
1:48:14 > 1:48:17Yes. I was very conscious that the children that I had played with
1:48:17 > 1:48:19when I was eight, perhaps one or two of them
1:48:19 > 1:48:22were now members of an IRA unit.
1:48:22 > 1:48:27The law applies equally to us as it applies to the terrorists.
1:48:27 > 1:48:32Andrew is one of the organisers of the veterans' campaign.
1:48:32 > 1:48:34They say the new prosecutions,
1:48:34 > 1:48:36the investigations and a series of inquests
1:48:36 > 1:48:40into security force killings amount to a witch-hunt.
1:48:42 > 1:48:44This former member of the Black Watch
1:48:44 > 1:48:47believes soldiers suspected of any wrongdoing
1:48:47 > 1:48:51have already been sufficiently investigated.
1:48:51 > 1:48:55They were investigated thoroughly at the time.
1:48:55 > 1:48:58A soldier is subjected to a series of investigations
1:48:58 > 1:49:01if he fires his gun that is far more vigorous
1:49:01 > 1:49:05than terrorists are subjected to.
1:49:05 > 1:49:08We have to face not only the civil police,
1:49:08 > 1:49:10but the Royal Military Police.
1:49:10 > 1:49:15Any belief that the military police is best mates with the British Army,
1:49:15 > 1:49:18they don't understand how it operates.
1:49:22 > 1:49:25Killings by the military account for about one-third
1:49:25 > 1:49:29of the Troubles cases now in front of the PSNI.
1:49:29 > 1:49:32The British Government agrees with the veterans
1:49:32 > 1:49:34that that is disproportionate,
1:49:34 > 1:49:38because the Army was responsible for less than 10% of the deaths.
1:49:38 > 1:49:41But there is a great deal of evidence
1:49:41 > 1:49:45that the reason so many Army killings are being re-examined now
1:49:45 > 1:49:50is that they were not properly investigated in the first place.
1:49:50 > 1:49:55A man with a weapon. Then you may shoot him. A man with a weapon.
1:49:55 > 1:49:58At the heart of this story is a fundamental disagreement
1:49:58 > 1:50:03about how military killings in Northern Ireland were investigated.
1:50:03 > 1:50:06Soldiers believe they were subjected to rigorous scrutiny
1:50:06 > 1:50:09and investigations, and that when they were told
1:50:09 > 1:50:12they were in the clear, that was it. Case closed.
1:50:17 > 1:50:21But many families of people killed by the Army do not agree.
1:50:26 > 1:50:28In Londonderry's Free Derry Museum,
1:50:28 > 1:50:33British Army radio transmissions are played on a loop.
1:50:33 > 1:50:37'60 fired at a bomber in William Street. Man hit.'
1:50:37 > 1:50:40These are the actual sounds of Bloody Sunday,
1:50:40 > 1:50:45when 13 people were shot dead by the Army in January 1972.
1:50:50 > 1:50:52I'm meeting John Kelly,
1:50:52 > 1:50:55whose brother was a teenager when he was killed.
1:50:55 > 1:50:57My brother Michael was only 17,
1:50:57 > 1:50:59and the youngest to die on Bloody Sunday.
1:50:59 > 1:51:03And that's the little Babygro that was used to stem the flow
1:51:03 > 1:51:05of blood when he was taken into the house after being shot.
1:51:05 > 1:51:07That was the first thing the mother of the house grabbed,
1:51:07 > 1:51:09was that Babygro.
1:51:09 > 1:51:11So that actually, the blood on that Babygro
1:51:11 > 1:51:14- is your brother's blood from that day?- It's the blood of my brother.
1:51:14 > 1:51:17It's extremely important to my family that we have something
1:51:17 > 1:51:18belonging to Michael here.
1:51:22 > 1:51:25Despite the high profile attached to Bloody Sunday,
1:51:25 > 1:51:28the families of the dead said it took more than 35 years
1:51:28 > 1:51:31for the killings to be properly investigated.
1:51:33 > 1:51:38In 2010, after the biggest and most expensive inquiry
1:51:38 > 1:51:40in British legal history,
1:51:40 > 1:51:43the Government apologised for the killings,
1:51:43 > 1:51:47saying they were unjustified, unjustifiable and wrong.
1:51:50 > 1:51:53Do you think the soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday
1:51:53 > 1:51:56were properly investigated at the time?
1:51:56 > 1:51:57No.
1:51:57 > 1:52:01So you're clear that at the time, your brother's death,
1:52:01 > 1:52:04the deaths of the others that day were not investigated properly?
1:52:04 > 1:52:06They were not investigated properly.
1:52:06 > 1:52:09And for anyone else to say different,
1:52:09 > 1:52:12they are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.
1:52:12 > 1:52:14There was never a murder investigation
1:52:14 > 1:52:16by the police at the time.
1:52:18 > 1:52:23The PSNI recently sent investigation files on Bloody Sunday
1:52:23 > 1:52:27to the Prosecution Service, which means the soldier who killed
1:52:27 > 1:52:30Michael Kelly could be the next veteran in the dock.
1:52:32 > 1:52:34John doesn't speak for all the families,
1:52:34 > 1:52:37but he would welcome that day in court.
1:52:37 > 1:52:40Will prosecutions bring closure?
1:52:41 > 1:52:44Prosecutions will certainly bring closure to me.
1:52:44 > 1:52:46We have been...
1:52:46 > 1:52:52It's 45 years since Bloody Sunday, and I was 23 on that day.
1:52:52 > 1:52:55Some of these soldiers are the same age as me now.
1:52:55 > 1:52:57And for me, I want to get on with the rest of my life,
1:52:57 > 1:52:59whatever I have left.
1:52:59 > 1:53:04So when I see prosecutions happen, I can smile
1:53:04 > 1:53:06and say I've done a good job.
1:53:06 > 1:53:10I was part of a process from the families,
1:53:10 > 1:53:12and all the people who helped us over the years, that we have
1:53:12 > 1:53:15tried to achieve truth and justice for our loved ones.
1:53:15 > 1:53:18And through prosecutions, it will be the final
1:53:18 > 1:53:19part of the equation.
1:53:19 > 1:53:23'While a body was brought forward into a possible line of fire.'
1:53:25 > 1:53:27As the most notorious action by the British Army
1:53:27 > 1:53:28during the Troubles,
1:53:28 > 1:53:32Bloody Sunday was always a focus of attention.
1:53:36 > 1:53:39But hundreds of other killings were filed away
1:53:39 > 1:53:41and largely ignored.
1:53:42 > 1:53:45Evidence at the Bloody Sunday Inquiry revealed that
1:53:45 > 1:53:50between 1970 and 1973, during the worst period
1:53:50 > 1:53:55for killings, the RUC and Army had an informal agreement which meant
1:53:55 > 1:54:00that Army shooters were only interviewed by military police.
1:54:00 > 1:54:03That agreement was that basically
1:54:03 > 1:54:06the Royal Military Police should have taken statements from soldiers
1:54:06 > 1:54:11as to what happened during incidents where people were killed.
1:54:11 > 1:54:14And the soldiers' statements would then be sent to the RUC.
1:54:14 > 1:54:18By their own account, this took the form of a tea and sandwiches event,
1:54:18 > 1:54:20where they simply sat with the soldier and said,
1:54:20 > 1:54:21"Tell us what happened."
1:54:21 > 1:54:25And there was no attempt to probe whether they had
1:54:25 > 1:54:27broken the criminal law.
1:54:31 > 1:54:32During the Troubles,
1:54:32 > 1:54:36just over 20 military killings were brought to court,
1:54:36 > 1:54:38a comparatively small proportion
1:54:38 > 1:54:42of the 311 deaths caused by the Army.
1:54:43 > 1:54:47Soldiers were acquitted in two-thirds of the cases.
1:54:47 > 1:54:50In most cases in which troops were convicted of murder
1:54:50 > 1:54:54or manslaughter, they were released after relatively short terms
1:54:54 > 1:54:57in prison, and usually returned to the Army.
1:54:59 > 1:55:03Those are the stark statistics of the last 40 years,
1:55:03 > 1:55:05in terms of the actions of the British Army
1:55:05 > 1:55:07on these streets since 1969.
1:55:07 > 1:55:09That is not a witch-hunt.
1:55:13 > 1:55:15Once again, there's a big difference
1:55:15 > 1:55:18over what that small number of cases means.
1:55:18 > 1:55:22Does it show favourable treatment for the Army, or is it evidence
1:55:22 > 1:55:25that soldiers mostly operated within the rule of law,
1:55:25 > 1:55:27even when they killed?
1:55:27 > 1:55:30The Army's chief legal advisor in Iraq
1:55:30 > 1:55:33was Lt Col Nicholas Mercer.
1:55:33 > 1:55:36After he blew the whistle on the abuse of prisoners there,
1:55:36 > 1:55:40a human rights group named him their lawyer of the year.
1:55:40 > 1:55:44In the 1990s, he also instructed troops in Northern Ireland
1:55:44 > 1:55:46on the rules of engagement,
1:55:46 > 1:55:50specifying when they could or couldn't open fire.
1:55:50 > 1:55:53Those rules were known as the yellow card.
1:55:53 > 1:55:58The Lt Col is now a Church of England minister in Dorset.
1:55:58 > 1:56:00He says there was sympathy in the Army for some of those
1:56:00 > 1:56:04soldiers who wrongly crossed the line.
1:56:04 > 1:56:07There was a view to one extent that this was a war,
1:56:07 > 1:56:09and that these things happen,
1:56:09 > 1:56:14and yet you're apply domestic law to what is a wartime situation.
1:56:14 > 1:56:17From a legal perspective, of course, murder is murder.
1:56:17 > 1:56:20You can take mitigating circumstances into account
1:56:20 > 1:56:22and let's face it, there are mitigating circumstances,
1:56:22 > 1:56:26these are young men with rifles who normally wouldn't have them
1:56:26 > 1:56:29in highly charged operational situations,
1:56:29 > 1:56:31which does make it different
1:56:31 > 1:56:34from something like a gangland killing or a stabbing
1:56:34 > 1:56:36or something of that nature.
1:56:36 > 1:56:40But the yellow card rules made it clear that soldiers operating
1:56:40 > 1:56:44in Northern Ireland could not behave as if they were in a war.
1:56:44 > 1:56:48In international armed conflict, then...
1:56:48 > 1:56:50you can shoot to kill because the other side
1:56:50 > 1:56:52is a combatant.
1:56:52 > 1:56:55In any other conflict, it would have to be
1:56:55 > 1:57:00in self-defence of yourself or in self-defence of others.
1:57:00 > 1:57:03So in Northern Ireland, self-defence?
1:57:03 > 1:57:04Of yourself or others, yeah.
1:57:04 > 1:57:09But such legal niceties had to be explained to soldiers on the ground.
1:57:09 > 1:57:12Please, can you take your Guardsmen through the yellow card again,
1:57:12 > 1:57:15and make sure its provisions are obeyed?
1:57:15 > 1:57:18I expect them to take fairly vigorous action if we're under
1:57:18 > 1:57:21attack, and I will back them up to the shagging hilt.
1:57:21 > 1:57:25If they act within the spirit and the law of the yellow card,
1:57:25 > 1:57:29I'll be there in court with them, my collar and tie,
1:57:29 > 1:57:30making sure they get off.
1:57:30 > 1:57:31I think, I think if you serve
1:57:31 > 1:57:34in the Armed Forces you have some sympathy for the soldiers
1:57:34 > 1:57:36on the ground.
1:57:36 > 1:57:38I mean, I would go out on patrol with soldiers,
1:57:38 > 1:57:43just to see what it was like first hand, and we did rural vehicle
1:57:43 > 1:57:46checkpoints at night, with cars speeding up,
1:57:46 > 1:57:50slowing down, young men with weapons - it's not easy.
1:57:51 > 1:57:55Nicholas Mercer does believe there is a danger that individual
1:57:55 > 1:57:59soldiers are left to face consequences not of their making.
1:57:59 > 1:58:01Where you off to?
1:58:01 > 1:58:03The fact that they were following orders
1:58:03 > 1:58:06is not a defence in law -
1:58:06 > 1:58:08the question is did they kill someone,
1:58:08 > 1:58:11did they intend to do it, and do they have a lawful defence?
1:58:11 > 1:58:16Having said that, all too often the State melt into the background,
1:58:16 > 1:58:19leaving the servicemen stranded.
1:58:23 > 1:58:26Alan Barry was a 19-year-old Grenadier Guardsman
1:58:26 > 1:58:29when he first set foot in Northern Ireland.
1:58:29 > 1:58:32Born in Dublin, he was raised near Birmingham.
1:58:33 > 1:58:36I always wanted to be a soldier from a very early age.
1:58:36 > 1:58:38That's how I ended up in the Army.
1:58:38 > 1:58:40It's been more than 30 years
1:58:40 > 1:58:43since he first found himself on this street in Strabane.
1:58:45 > 1:58:49What was it like patrolling here, as a young 19-year-old?
1:58:49 > 1:58:51Well, you were on edge all the time.
1:58:52 > 1:58:56You didn't know what was coming or where it was coming from.
1:58:56 > 1:59:00There was an air of tension, constantly.
1:59:00 > 1:59:04Coming over this bridge for the first time in a Land Rover,
1:59:04 > 1:59:08I'll always remember the peat fire smell,
1:59:08 > 1:59:11because I actually didn't know what it was.
1:59:11 > 1:59:12- Were you frightened?- Yeah.
1:59:12 > 1:59:15As young Guardsmen, yeah, we were frightened.
1:59:15 > 1:59:17I was, I know that.
1:59:17 > 1:59:20What kind of reception did you get back then in the '80s?
1:59:20 > 1:59:22Hostile.
1:59:22 > 1:59:26You could see the naked hatred in people's eyes towards us.
1:59:27 > 1:59:30I remember once getting on a bus.
1:59:30 > 1:59:34As I walked down I had my rifle up in the port position like this,
1:59:34 > 1:59:37and I'm looking down each individual aisle.
1:59:37 > 1:59:43The bus was packed with children of about 15, 16 years of age.
1:59:43 > 1:59:44I was 19.
1:59:44 > 1:59:46And the obscenities that were screamed at me,
1:59:46 > 1:59:49you know the usual "Brit this, Brit that",
1:59:49 > 1:59:53"Eff off back to where you're from," and all the usual stuff.
1:59:53 > 1:59:55When I got off the bus, I took my flak jacket off,
1:59:55 > 2:00:00and it was absolutely covered in phlegm and spit.
2:00:00 > 2:00:04You say that a lot of people here saw you as the enemy.
2:00:04 > 2:00:08What did you think your role here was at that stage?
2:00:09 > 2:00:13My view, and the view of many of my fellow comrades,
2:00:13 > 2:00:18was that we were here to stand between two warring factions.
2:00:18 > 2:00:20We were not here to oppress anyone.
2:00:20 > 2:00:24We were here to stop people being murdered,
2:00:24 > 2:00:28to stop people being killed, and that was our job.
2:00:29 > 2:00:32Alan Barry was also one of the London march organisers.
2:00:34 > 2:00:36He's incensed that Dennis Hutchings
2:00:36 > 2:00:39and other soldiers are being brought to trial.
2:00:39 > 2:00:42The State, he says, has double standards.
2:00:43 > 2:00:47The main reason for this event today
2:00:47 > 2:00:52was to send a clear message out to our politicians and also
2:00:52 > 2:00:57to the people both here in the United Kingdom and the people
2:00:57 > 2:00:58in Northern Ireland,
2:00:58 > 2:01:01of the injustice of what's currently happening.
2:01:02 > 2:01:06He says that's mainly because of the efforts Tony Blair's government
2:01:06 > 2:01:08put into dealing with IRA fugitives.
2:01:10 > 2:01:14Back in 2001, the Government agreed to an amnesty
2:01:14 > 2:01:16in exchange for decommissioning.
2:01:17 > 2:01:20But the Ministry of Defence didn't want the plan
2:01:20 > 2:01:22to include soldiers,
2:01:22 > 2:01:24because that would equate them with terrorists.
2:01:26 > 2:01:29That changed four years later,
2:01:29 > 2:01:31when the then Secretary of State Peter Hain
2:01:31 > 2:01:33brought legislation to Parliament
2:01:33 > 2:01:36that would grant immunity from prosecution
2:01:36 > 2:01:39for certain Troubles-related crimes.
2:01:39 > 2:01:43This time, soldiers were included in the Government's plans.
2:01:46 > 2:01:48Sinn Fein were only concerned with their side,
2:01:48 > 2:01:50but you couldn't legislate, I would never
2:01:50 > 2:01:54have been prepared to legislate in a way that gave a special
2:01:54 > 2:02:00status to former IRA militia men on the one hand,
2:02:00 > 2:02:01but not to soldiers on the other.
2:02:01 > 2:02:03How could any Secretary of State do that?
2:02:03 > 2:02:07How could any responsible individual do that?
2:02:07 > 2:02:11With soldiers coming in, Sinn Fein wanted out.
2:02:11 > 2:02:16Just as the MoD had objected to being included with the IRA,
2:02:16 > 2:02:19Sinn Fein now objected to the inclusion of soldiers.
2:02:19 > 2:02:22The Government dropped the legislation.
2:02:22 > 2:02:25That still left the problem of republican fugitives,
2:02:25 > 2:02:28known as on-the-runs.
2:02:28 > 2:02:30So quietly, the Government began issuing
2:02:30 > 2:02:33what are now known as letters of comfort.
2:02:34 > 2:02:37These letters were supposed to be a limited statement of fact,
2:02:37 > 2:02:42namely that individual republicans were not wanted by the police.
2:02:42 > 2:02:46But that scheme backfired spectacularly.
2:02:46 > 2:02:50Three years ago, Donegal man John Downey was found not guilty
2:02:50 > 2:02:53of the 1982 Hyde Park bombing.
2:02:53 > 2:02:55IRA terrorists have carried out
2:02:55 > 2:02:58two lethal bomb attacks in London.
2:02:58 > 2:03:01The attack killed four members of the Household Cavalry,
2:03:01 > 2:03:03and seven of their horses.
2:03:04 > 2:03:07Seven Army musicians were killed by a bomb
2:03:07 > 2:03:09at Regent's Park the same day.
2:03:11 > 2:03:15Downey had been wanted by police, because fingerprint evidence
2:03:15 > 2:03:19was suspected of linking him to the Hyde Park attack.
2:03:19 > 2:03:22He pleaded not guilty, and was acquitted because
2:03:22 > 2:03:25he received a letter from the Government
2:03:25 > 2:03:28saying he was not wanted for any offences.
2:03:28 > 2:03:30As a former member of the Household Division,
2:03:30 > 2:03:33it is something I feel quite strongly about.
2:03:33 > 2:03:36Troopers of the Blues and Royals mounting public duty,
2:03:36 > 2:03:39who were not carrying weapons, who were mounting public duty
2:03:39 > 2:03:42on their horses were blown to smithereens.
2:03:43 > 2:03:47John Downey walked into court with a letter of comfort,
2:03:47 > 2:03:48and the case collapsed.
2:03:48 > 2:03:51What was your reaction and the reaction
2:03:51 > 2:03:55of your colleagues when you found out about the letters of comfort?
2:03:55 > 2:03:59If the cost of peace is letters of comfort,
2:03:59 > 2:04:01I can only speak for myself,
2:04:01 > 2:04:03that is something that I can live with.
2:04:03 > 2:04:06What I cannot live with, is letters of comfort
2:04:06 > 2:04:10for terrorists and gangsters and veterans being pursued.
2:04:10 > 2:04:14That's wrong. It's a completely one-sided situation.
2:04:14 > 2:04:17And it's not morally, fundamentally right.
2:04:17 > 2:04:18Do you bear any responsibility
2:04:18 > 2:04:22for where we are today, given that the militaries
2:04:22 > 2:04:25reserve most of their ire for the Blair Government
2:04:25 > 2:04:27for the letters of comfort?
2:04:27 > 2:04:31It's very, very hard to overstate the depth of feeling that's
2:04:31 > 2:04:35still there within the military over those letters of comfort.
2:04:35 > 2:04:38They see it as a sign, they see it as pure treachery.
2:04:38 > 2:04:43I completely reject any accusation and resent, deeply resent
2:04:43 > 2:04:45any accusation of treachery.
2:04:45 > 2:04:48I have always been consistent and clear
2:04:48 > 2:04:49that it has to apply to everybody.
2:04:49 > 2:04:53It has to apply to IRA gunman and bomber
2:04:53 > 2:04:55equally as to British soldiers.
2:04:57 > 2:05:00A judge blamed the Downey case on a catastrophic
2:05:00 > 2:05:02mistake by the PSNI.
2:05:03 > 2:05:08However, a second murder suspect was found to have received a letter,
2:05:08 > 2:05:12and veterans believe that shows republicans were protected.
2:05:13 > 2:05:18But the office of Barra McGrory, the Director of Public Prosecutions,
2:05:18 > 2:05:22said it is has been made clear that there is no amnesty system in place
2:05:22 > 2:05:24for any type of individual.
2:05:37 > 2:05:39When he was Sinn Fein's lawyer,
2:05:39 > 2:05:42Mr McGrory was involved in identifying who might receive
2:05:42 > 2:05:45the letters, although he has said he had, "no hand,
2:05:45 > 2:05:48"act or part in the devising of the scheme."
2:05:50 > 2:05:53Since he became DPP, he has referred
2:05:53 > 2:05:58nine Troubles cases to the PSNI for further investigation,
2:05:58 > 2:06:00four related to Army killings.
2:06:02 > 2:06:06But it's the perceived connection between his past and present roles
2:06:06 > 2:06:10that has made him an object of attack from the veterans.
2:06:12 > 2:06:17The Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland
2:06:17 > 2:06:20cannot be considered impartial.
2:06:20 > 2:06:23Sack the DPP, and save our troops.
2:06:26 > 2:06:29At this election campaign meeting in Cookstown for mainly
2:06:29 > 2:06:32Unionist victims' groups, the prosecutions were
2:06:32 > 2:06:33high on the agenda.
2:06:35 > 2:06:39Within this room and further afield, there are a lot of retired members
2:06:39 > 2:06:42of the security forces worried for their future.
2:06:42 > 2:06:44They're coming to me saying, we cannot sleep at night.
2:06:44 > 2:06:48We are being revisited by,
2:06:48 > 2:06:51re-traumatised by, incidents in the past.
2:06:51 > 2:06:54And it's not like any of these soldiers or police went out
2:06:54 > 2:06:56with death in their minds.
2:06:56 > 2:07:00They went out to do a job of work and were faced with an incident
2:07:00 > 2:07:03which they had to react to very, very quickly.
2:07:03 > 2:07:06They did not set out with murder in their heart.
2:07:06 > 2:07:10Politicians were invited to sign a pledge opposing any Troubles
2:07:10 > 2:07:15amnesty but also seeking some legal protection for the security forces.
2:07:15 > 2:07:19Audience members also had the Director of Public Prosecutions
2:07:19 > 2:07:21on their mind.
2:07:21 > 2:07:23We'll just move on to the next question.
2:07:23 > 2:07:26It's from Trevor. A very simple question. Do you believe
2:07:26 > 2:07:28Barry McGrory is impartial?
2:07:28 > 2:07:31LAUGHTER
2:07:35 > 2:07:39Trevor, I'm very conscious I don't have parliamentary privilege here.
2:07:39 > 2:07:41That's the first thing to say.
2:07:43 > 2:07:44How should I put this?
2:07:44 > 2:07:48There is very deep concern among many within the community
2:07:48 > 2:07:52about the referrals that are being made by the
2:07:52 > 2:07:56Director of Public Prosecutions.
2:07:56 > 2:08:00I think, you know, people will judge for themselves
2:08:00 > 2:08:05the number of cases that have been, I suppose, referred by
2:08:05 > 2:08:07the Director of Public Prosecutions.
2:08:07 > 2:08:10And I think, Trevor, you'll appreciate, the limitations
2:08:10 > 2:08:12and what we can say on that.
2:08:12 > 2:08:16But that night the DUP representative defended
2:08:16 > 2:08:18Barra McGrory's integrity.
2:08:18 > 2:08:22I'll echo, I think, Tom's cautiousness
2:08:22 > 2:08:24in the sense of there isn't parliamentary privilege and
2:08:24 > 2:08:28obviously he has come out and very strongly denied allegations.
2:08:29 > 2:08:34If there is any skewing or any, differential in treatment then
2:08:34 > 2:08:37that must be identified and he will be answerable
2:08:37 > 2:08:39to that and for that.
2:08:40 > 2:08:43Sorry. Maybe I've made a mistake here.
2:08:43 > 2:08:48Was he not involved in the make-up of the "on the run" letters
2:08:48 > 2:08:50before he took on that new position?
2:08:50 > 2:08:52What the director has said very clearly
2:08:52 > 2:08:55is that he has been very, very open and said that he
2:08:55 > 2:08:56has not been biased.
2:08:56 > 2:08:59He has looked at what has come before him, and in his professional
2:08:59 > 2:09:01integrity he has referred on where he has to do that
2:09:01 > 2:09:03and he does have legal obligations there.
2:09:03 > 2:09:08The DPP's office says the Army cases are a fraction of the legacy
2:09:08 > 2:09:13prosecutions he's brought, the majority involving republicans.
2:09:14 > 2:09:17And Mr McGrory has said he represented many people,
2:09:17 > 2:09:21including police and soldiers.
2:09:21 > 2:09:25He told BBC Newsline that as DPP he applies the law evenly
2:09:25 > 2:09:29and his former clients have no bearing on his decisions.
2:09:29 > 2:09:32And he resents the criticism.
2:09:32 > 2:09:35I can't speak for the motivation of those who say
2:09:35 > 2:09:38such things but some of them ought to know better.
2:09:38 > 2:09:41If they're not trying to influence me, then
2:09:41 > 2:09:47they are certainly being personally insulting and they are questioning
2:09:47 > 2:09:48my integrity.
2:09:48 > 2:09:50Who I have represented in the past really has
2:09:50 > 2:09:52got nothing to do with it.
2:09:52 > 2:09:57I apply the rule of law as it is and decisions are taken
2:09:57 > 2:10:01on the evidence and in the public interest.
2:10:01 > 2:10:03Last month, when Irish Foreign Minister
2:10:03 > 2:10:07Charlie Flanagan delivered the annual Pat Finucane lecture,
2:10:07 > 2:10:11Mr McGrory was on hand to hear him defend the decision
2:10:11 > 2:10:13to prosecute soldiers.
2:10:13 > 2:10:16Regardless of who someone was and regardless
2:10:16 > 2:10:19of what they were doing there is a requirement
2:10:19 > 2:10:22to effectively and meticulously investigate the matter
2:10:22 > 2:10:24of their death.
2:10:24 > 2:10:29And thereafter, if the threshold of proof is met, a prosecution must
2:10:29 > 2:10:33actively and vigorously be pursued.
2:10:33 > 2:10:37The eldest son of murdered solicitor Pat Finucane said
2:10:37 > 2:10:42the criticism of Mr McGrory is wholly unjustified.
2:10:42 > 2:10:46I think the conflation of a lawyer
2:10:46 > 2:10:54with the perceived sympathies or beliefs of their client
2:10:54 > 2:10:58is probably one of the most dangerous things one can do
2:10:58 > 2:11:03in a democratic society. I do not think that this deliberate
2:11:03 > 2:11:08association of Mr McGrory with persons he may have represented
2:11:08 > 2:11:12in a previous capacity is in any way helpful or justified
2:11:12 > 2:11:14and I think it should stop.
2:11:17 > 2:11:20New negotiations began at Stormont yesterday,
2:11:20 > 2:11:23with legacy issues near the top of the agenda.
2:11:24 > 2:11:29Both Sinn Fein and the DUP have conflicting demands about the past
2:11:29 > 2:11:32that can only be answered by the British Government.
2:11:33 > 2:11:37People who have served the State who have been
2:11:37 > 2:11:39in the armed forces I think
2:11:39 > 2:11:42are entitled to a level of legal protection.
2:11:42 > 2:11:44What we're talking about is not an amnesty,
2:11:44 > 2:11:50but a statute of limitations which would mean you set a time period
2:11:50 > 2:11:54after which it's no longer possible to pursue those cases.
2:11:54 > 2:11:56There's never been a statute of limitation for murder.
2:11:56 > 2:11:59If there is evidence that someone has committed a murder then
2:11:59 > 2:12:02of course that person is liable to prosecution.
2:12:02 > 2:12:05What we're talking about here are historic investigations
2:12:05 > 2:12:07and the statute of limitations would relate
2:12:07 > 2:12:10to reopening investigations.
2:12:10 > 2:12:13The question is, is everyone equal under the law?
2:12:13 > 2:12:17They're arguing for a statute of limitations for State forces
2:12:17 > 2:12:20so clearly they don't believe in equality under the law.
2:12:20 > 2:12:25So on the one hand they're saying we want everyone equal under the law
2:12:25 > 2:12:29and on the other hand saying, except if they're State forces.
2:12:29 > 2:12:31Then they should be more equal than others.
2:12:31 > 2:12:34It's practical immunity over the last 40 years
2:12:34 > 2:12:37and now they're trying to legalise it.
2:12:37 > 2:12:38Each individual, whether they are State forces
2:12:38 > 2:12:41or not State forces, whether they were in the
2:12:41 > 2:12:44British Army, or used to be in the IRA, or whether in a loyalist
2:12:44 > 2:12:47organisation, unionist paramilitary, whatever they happen to be
2:12:47 > 2:12:50if you want to deal with it, then deal with it on an equal basis.
2:12:50 > 2:12:54The problem for all politicians is that an end to prosecutions,
2:12:54 > 2:12:59whether for one side or all sides, requires victims to relinquish
2:12:59 > 2:13:01any hope of seeing justice.
2:13:03 > 2:13:08What has to happen here, and this is a very hard thing for families
2:13:08 > 2:13:16and victims to accept, is that if you do not want your elderly
2:13:16 > 2:13:21relative former soldier prosecuted then you've got to accept
2:13:21 > 2:13:27that the elderly former republican who did something totally wrong
2:13:27 > 2:13:35and illegal and murderous has got to be exempt from being pursued
2:13:35 > 2:13:37and prosecuted as well.
2:13:37 > 2:13:38What would you say to those people
2:13:38 > 2:13:43who've said it's been 45 years, it's time to draw a line in the sand?
2:13:43 > 2:13:46For Northern Ireland's future, prosperity and well being,
2:13:46 > 2:13:47let it go.
2:13:47 > 2:13:49I have heard that many times.
2:13:49 > 2:13:51Heard it many times,
2:13:51 > 2:13:53and to me it's an insult.
2:13:53 > 2:13:57There are people out there crying out for justice for the loss
2:13:57 > 2:14:00of their loved ones. It will never, ever go away.
2:14:02 > 2:14:05Don't get me wrong, this is not about vengeance,
2:14:05 > 2:14:07this is about justice.
2:14:07 > 2:14:11Others say the only way forward is to choose between prosecutions
2:14:11 > 2:14:14of all sides or none.
2:14:14 > 2:14:20I think the very difficult consideration we all have to make,
2:14:20 > 2:14:23do we go all out one way or all out the other?
2:14:23 > 2:14:27Do we prosecute, or do we amnesty?
2:14:27 > 2:14:31I understand and realise completely the difficulty that that decision
2:14:31 > 2:14:36will make for some people, but I'm afraid it's a Rubicon that
2:14:36 > 2:14:38in my view simply has to be crossed.
2:14:42 > 2:14:45For now, the veterans are planning more, and they say bigger,
2:14:45 > 2:14:48marches to put pressure on the Government.
2:14:49 > 2:14:52Our argument and our beef is with the government
2:14:52 > 2:14:54and the politicians.
2:14:54 > 2:14:57It is not with the republican community.
2:14:57 > 2:14:59I have heard the republican
2:14:59 > 2:15:03side of Sinn Fein saying we have to move on, we need closure.
2:15:03 > 2:15:07Closure applies to both sides and it strikes me and it strikes fellow
2:15:07 > 2:15:13veterans that republican Sinn Fein, IRA effectively want closure
2:15:13 > 2:15:16for themselves, but they don't want closure for us.
2:15:17 > 2:15:22The past, like old soldiers, will not fade away.
2:15:22 > 2:15:25We cannot help but continue to remember it.
2:15:25 > 2:15:30The question is can we, or can we not agree on a way to go forward
2:15:30 > 2:15:32into the future together?