:00:18. > :00:32.Hello and welcome to Spotlight Special, where our studio audience
:00:33. > :00:36.put questions to our panel of politicians and commentators on the
:00:37. > :00:40.week's talking points. None bigger today than the death of Martin
:00:41. > :00:43.McGuinness at the age of 66. Tributes have paid fulsome praise to
:00:44. > :00:49.his efforts as a peacemaker, without forgetting his role as an IRA leader
:00:50. > :00:56.in the Troubles. We are joined by the former Secretary of State Owen
:00:57. > :01:02.Paterson. Joan Burton, said Jeffrey Donaldson, the DUP MP, Lesley
:01:03. > :01:05.Riddoch who spent her formative years in Northern Ireland but now
:01:06. > :01:12.plies her trade in Scotland as political writer and commentator.
:01:13. > :01:15.Brian Feeney and the formal Sinn Fein MLA Daithi McKay. That's our
:01:16. > :01:20.panel tonight for the Spotlight Special. And of course you can take
:01:21. > :01:27.part at home. Here's how you can get in touch on all of tonight's topics.
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:01:47. > :01:49.at twitter. The details are on your screen now.
:01:50. > :01:55.Let's get right into the questions. The first one comes from Michael
:01:56. > :01:59.Taylor, a historian. How should history remember Martin
:02:00. > :02:02.McGuinness? How should history remember Martin
:02:03. > :02:06.McGuinness? He passed away in the early hours of this morning at the
:02:07. > :02:11.age of 66. The airways have been full of tributes to him of various
:02:12. > :02:15.kinds. Enda Kenny said he was a peacemaker who took the path from
:02:16. > :02:19.terror to truce. Tony Blair said he was a formidable foe and a
:02:20. > :02:24.formidable peacemaker. Norman Tebbit said he was a coward who never
:02:25. > :02:30.atoned for his crimes. This lots and lots of different Let's hear what
:02:31. > :02:33.our panic panel think. Jeffrey Donaldson, how should history
:02:34. > :02:39.remember Martin McGuinness? I think it will be a mixed memory.
:02:40. > :02:42.Today, across Northern Ireland there will be many people with very
:02:43. > :02:49.different views on Martin McGuinness. Our thoughts are with
:02:50. > :02:52.the McGuinness family, losing a husband and father is a dramatic
:02:53. > :02:57.thing for any family. Equally there are families in Northern Ireland who
:02:58. > :03:04.are missing husbands and fathers and other family members because of the
:03:05. > :03:07.violent campaign of the IRA. Today will have been a difficult day for
:03:08. > :03:11.them. I think that history will look at
:03:12. > :03:18.Martin McGuinness and his role as a senior figure in the Provisional IRA
:03:19. > :03:21.and asked many questions about that. All of those people, those thousands
:03:22. > :03:28.of innocent people, did they have to die to get us to where we are today?
:03:29. > :03:32.I think also, and as a Unionist and someone who served in the security
:03:33. > :03:38.forces, who lost family, friends, comrades in the Troubles I recognise
:03:39. > :03:44.the journey Martin McGuinness has been an. That he had a great
:03:45. > :03:47.influence in bringing the Provisional IRA to the point of
:03:48. > :03:53.laying down their arms and then being fair -- ending their campaign
:03:54. > :03:58.of violence and we recognise that role as well. I think there will be
:03:59. > :04:01.mixed reviews, historically. Your personal thoughts, what will your
:04:02. > :04:07.final thought be? I worked with Martin McGuinness as ministers
:04:08. > :04:11.together in the office of Deputy First Minister and I recognised that
:04:12. > :04:15.he did want to make a positive contribution. That his focus had
:04:16. > :04:20.shifted from the past to the future, but we can't escape the legacy of
:04:21. > :04:25.our troubled past. Like many people in Northern Ireland, I had mixed
:04:26. > :04:30.feelings about today but today's a day to recognise that Martin
:04:31. > :04:32.McGuinness was a family man, and his family are mourning his loss this
:04:33. > :04:38.evening. Owen Paterson, you dealt with Martin
:04:39. > :04:43.McGuinness urged Shadow Secretary of State and Secretary of State. How do
:04:44. > :04:49.you think history will judge him? You are right. I first came here
:04:50. > :04:53.three years as the Shadow Secretary of State and Denver two years was
:04:54. > :04:57.the real Secretary of State, so I met Martin McGuinness on a regular
:04:58. > :05:03.basis for five years. By the time I had met him he was pursuing his
:05:04. > :05:09.political ambitions of promoting a united Ireland by entirely
:05:10. > :05:12.legitimate political means, as a Democrat politician. With using
:05:13. > :05:20.institutions here to promote his views and his ambition. And being a
:05:21. > :05:24.conservative and Unionist I didn't believe in his end destination for
:05:25. > :05:32.the Northern Ireland, but we had an absolutely cordial and constructive
:05:33. > :05:37.relationship. But, and Jeffrey raised this, I had to remember all
:05:38. > :05:41.along that he began pursuing those ambitions and those political
:05:42. > :05:45.ambitions remained with him all his life, by the most appalling, violent
:05:46. > :05:52.terrorist campaign, which caused many deaths, dreadful destruction
:05:53. > :05:57.and shocking human misery. I think you have to balance that.
:05:58. > :06:01.So he obviously was a man of great character and strength, and when he
:06:02. > :06:08.decided to turn his back on violence and move to his Democratic mode, his
:06:09. > :06:12.power over his colleagues was obviously very, very strong. He
:06:13. > :06:17.played an absolutely vital part in moving the republican movement to
:06:18. > :06:21.adopting peaceful means to promote their aims. But sadly there are many
:06:22. > :06:24.people watching this programme tonight, and many victims no longer
:06:25. > :06:28.here, they happily did not have that choice. I think we should remember
:06:29. > :06:33.them and all those people. And Martin McGuinness? And Martin
:06:34. > :06:36.McGuinness's own family. I saw interviews with him today,
:06:37. > :06:41.historical interviews in which he said he felt he had no choice when
:06:42. > :06:45.he joined the IRA. There was no other way of combating what was
:06:46. > :06:49.going on, in his view. There would be many people here that
:06:50. > :06:53.would no far more about the background. Having come into it, at
:06:54. > :06:58.the time there were Democratic peaceful institutions, you could get
:06:59. > :07:02.elected as Council here be an MP, you could join a political party,
:07:03. > :07:07.and there was a political party that wanted to pursue his aims, by
:07:08. > :07:11.peaceful means. So I never really understood why there was this
:07:12. > :07:17.campaign of appalling violence which caused such terrible damage and
:07:18. > :07:22.human misery. As Jeffrey said, it perhaps could have been reached by
:07:23. > :07:29.peaceful means much earlier. Daithi McKay, can you help Owen Paterson
:07:30. > :07:34.come to that conclusion? I want to express my condolences to his
:07:35. > :07:36.family, Bernie and the clan. Today is a very difficult days for them
:07:37. > :07:41.but I think Martin will be remembered as a peacemaker. He was a
:07:42. > :07:44.great negotiator, but I think it's real skill set over the last decade
:07:45. > :07:52.has been in relationships and relationship building. Often, and
:07:53. > :07:55.Jeffrey referred to it, things in the executive have been rocky at
:07:56. > :08:01.times, but Martin was a steadying force within the executive and the
:08:02. > :08:04.Assembly and the institutions that lasted for a whole ten years. That
:08:05. > :08:09.was a magnificent achievement. Of course, we all come from different
:08:10. > :08:13.backgrounds and Martin came on a journey, Ian Paisley came on a
:08:14. > :08:17.journey, the Conservative Party and their policy towards Ireland came on
:08:18. > :08:22.a journey as well. I don't think Martin should be singled out in the
:08:23. > :08:26.way he has been today, because he made an enormous contribution to
:08:27. > :08:30.bedding down the institutions. The real skill set he had was in
:08:31. > :08:34.relationship building. When you see the tributes that have been made by
:08:35. > :08:41.the former First Minister David Trimble, by the Reverend David
:08:42. > :08:47.Latimer, and by the Paisley family, you get a real sense that Martin was
:08:48. > :08:51.absolutely genuine about making for peace and healing those old wounds.
:08:52. > :08:55.Some people questioned today if it was a change of head, in other words
:08:56. > :09:01.a change of tactics or heart, what do you think? A change of heart. But
:09:02. > :09:07.Martin was always somebody, in terms of the great political debates who
:09:08. > :09:11.used his head. When difficult decisions had to be made, in terms
:09:12. > :09:15.of Sinn Fein joining the policing board, even the terms of signing up
:09:16. > :09:19.to the Good Friday agreement, Martin Laird with his head because he could
:09:20. > :09:25.see that by making compromises that wasn't necessarily a weakness. That
:09:26. > :09:28.we could go forward, make compromises and come out in a better
:09:29. > :09:33.position on the other side. And that has proven to be the case. I think
:09:34. > :09:36.it is also timely because we are in a difficult position in terms of the
:09:37. > :09:41.institutions at the moment. There negotiations ongoing and hopefully
:09:42. > :09:46.this will people cause to reflect on where we have actually come from as
:09:47. > :09:51.a society and the need to get our heads round the table and make a
:09:52. > :09:56.deal over the coming days and weeks, because we cannot move back, because
:09:57. > :10:01.what Martin wanted over the past ten years was to ensure the institutions
:10:02. > :10:06.worked and delivered fairly. It was suggested Gerry Adams wasn't perhaps
:10:07. > :10:09.as committed as much as Martin McGuinness, do you think that is a
:10:10. > :10:13.reasonable comment? There will be a number of comments today on a number
:10:14. > :10:18.of political points to be made. Only time will tell how the Sinn Fein
:10:19. > :10:25.negotiating team will approach the present talks. But at the end of the
:10:26. > :10:28.day, I think today is not a time for political point scoring between the
:10:29. > :10:34.different parties. I think we can put that off for a few days whilst a
:10:35. > :10:39.community in Derry is in mourning. You will hear from the age of three
:10:40. > :10:43.to 13 so you know all about it. What is your view of the legacy of Martin
:10:44. > :10:46.McGuinness? Well actually I think you're
:10:47. > :10:50.experiencing it tonight. I'm sitting here as someone who's lived in
:10:51. > :10:55.Scotland since I was 13 and I'm just astonished by the restraint and care
:10:56. > :10:59.that you're all taking, actually. People are able to see both sides of
:11:00. > :11:04.the man's character and his legacy and taking care to pay tribute to
:11:05. > :11:09.both. That in itself is quite astonishing thing, given the amount
:11:10. > :11:13.of real damage that's happened. It's probably fairer to say there is a
:11:14. > :11:17.convention on the day that someone passes away there is restraint. That
:11:18. > :11:21.restraint may not be there in a few days, I don't know, but I think that
:11:22. > :11:24.should be pointed out. If you are listening to the tributes that have
:11:25. > :11:29.come in from all sorts of directions... There was a fairly
:11:30. > :11:33.straight talking comment from Norman Tebbit, as we would expect, but
:11:34. > :11:39.obviously his family were so deeply involved. But when you look at the
:11:40. > :11:44.other remarks from Colin Parry and people like this, with a testament
:11:45. > :11:47.to the bravery of turning your back on the direction you state your life
:11:48. > :11:49.and to take your community in a different direction, all of these
:11:50. > :11:54.things are unexpected. I suppose that's what... I met Martin
:11:55. > :12:00.McGuinness in the 1990s when I took a posse over from Channel 4. In one
:12:01. > :12:06.Martin McGuinness and David Ervine how astonishingly unpredictable
:12:07. > :12:11.those two and both dead. Both were people who were unconventional and
:12:12. > :12:13.whose being unconventional allowed them to take people to places that
:12:14. > :12:19.perhaps you would never expect politics could reach. You saw for
:12:20. > :12:21.example pictures of Martin McGuinness meeting the Queen. What
:12:22. > :12:30.were the thoughts that would have gone through your head as someone
:12:31. > :12:33.who was in this? I think we have all seen that little clip played over
:12:34. > :12:38.and over again, with the Queen audibly saying, I'm still alive.
:12:39. > :12:43.There's a moment where you cannot believe either side's exchange of
:12:44. > :12:48.that, the hugeness of what they are involved in. And equally Prince
:12:49. > :12:53.Charles, being able to overcome the death of his uncle. All of these
:12:54. > :12:57.things have been admirable, actually, in their different ways.
:12:58. > :13:01.Martin McGuinness stands in the middle of it all. Brian Feeney,
:13:02. > :13:07.perhaps you could as a columnist pass some comment on the issue of
:13:08. > :13:13.restraint on a day like this and also throw some light on where you
:13:14. > :13:17.think the legacy lies. Well, I think it's too early to talk
:13:18. > :13:21.about legacy, it's too early to talk in terms of how history will see
:13:22. > :13:26.him. I should also say I'm not noted for my restraint in columns that I
:13:27. > :13:31.write. I'd like to put it in a bit of
:13:32. > :13:36.perspective. The suggestion all the time is someone who is engaged in an
:13:37. > :13:40.armed struggle or military campaign or resistance or what ever you want
:13:41. > :13:44.to call it, that is mutually exclusive that that person can only
:13:45. > :13:49.be either engaged in an armed struggle or can be engaged in
:13:50. > :13:55.politics. The fact of the matter is the IRA sued for peace on a number
:13:56. > :13:59.of occasions. As early as 1972 the British government invited a
:14:00. > :14:03.delegation which included Martin McGuinness to London to discuss
:14:04. > :14:07.peace terms. The meeting was a disaster, but the sort of thing he
:14:08. > :14:11.did doesn't automatically mean he wasn't interested in a political
:14:12. > :14:16.settlement from very early on. There are a number of occasions where
:14:17. > :14:20.British government has been involved with other organisations, where
:14:21. > :14:27.they've ultimately dealt with terrorists who became Prime
:14:28. > :14:29.Minister. For example the Prime Minister of Israel, was a very
:14:30. > :14:35.successful terrorist in the 1940s and became Prime Minister of Israel,
:14:36. > :14:39.killed a lot of British soldiers before he moved into politics. So
:14:40. > :14:46.isn't new to be exclusive. It's not necessarily the case that Martin
:14:47. > :14:50.McGuinness was blind, violent figure and then at some point had a dancing
:14:51. > :14:54.conversion and decided to get involved in politics. He would have
:14:55. > :15:00.considered he was involved in politics throughout the whole
:15:01. > :15:04.period. The ceasefire in 72 and in 75, ultimately the British
:15:05. > :15:06.government, the only thing they could do they did, which was to talk
:15:07. > :15:27.to the IRA, finally, in 1991. Does the British government accept
:15:28. > :15:32.that the Irish people have a right to self determination? And
:15:33. > :15:40.negotiations began from that point. Historically, one of the things that
:15:41. > :15:46.will be to his credit is that he rode two horses at the same time.
:15:47. > :15:50.John Major today said that he understood sometimes when the IRA
:15:51. > :15:56.brought promises because it meant that Martin McGuinness had to bring
:15:57. > :16:05.the hard men with him. For example, something like the Warrington bomb,
:16:06. > :16:09.John major said, he had to bring people with him who could have
:16:10. > :16:12.killed him, whereas John Major had problems in the House of Commons
:16:13. > :16:21.with certain people that they were not going to kill him. Joan Burton,
:16:22. > :16:27.what do you think is his legacy? I was in O'Connell Street and the
:16:28. > :16:40.anniversary of 1916, sitting beside Martin McGuinness, and there was an
:16:41. > :16:49.army, and the cop flew past, and he was busy taking photos of the fly
:16:50. > :16:59.past the centre his grandkids. By the time I met him consistently at
:17:00. > :17:07.North-South ministerial meetings, he was tremendously energised by how
:17:08. > :17:11.far the peace process had changed the north, and sitting in O'Connell
:17:12. > :17:18.Street, which consisted of the Irish Army, the Irish Guards, the IRA had
:17:19. > :17:24.many issues with them and killed quite a number of people, and the
:17:25. > :17:29.children, like people who have been victims here, and their relatives,
:17:30. > :17:34.on a day like this, of course it is mixed feelings. We remember his
:17:35. > :17:47.achievements but you also remember, and is somebody who grew up admiring
:17:48. > :17:50.John Hume, I like to feel that Gerry and John Hume had an influence on
:17:51. > :17:59.him that made him reach out that that further. We had another
:18:00. > :18:06.similarity in our backgrounds. Both of our dads were found workers. The
:18:07. > :18:14.political situation, which was often people who came from all
:18:15. > :18:19.backgrounds, both of us... We had an enormous interest in people getting
:18:20. > :18:26.jobs and people getting decent services, and when they were
:18:27. > :18:32.retired, having pensions available. We had conversations about the
:18:33. > :18:37.island of Ireland but to his family, my condolences. He was so proud of
:18:38. > :18:44.them and they were supportive of him, and he always talked about him,
:18:45. > :18:48.and they were always with him. In that context, with Jim Allister, who
:18:49. > :18:52.said Martin McGuinness took his secrets to the grade and his
:18:53. > :18:56.thoughts were with the victims who never reached the age of 66 and who
:18:57. > :19:01.never had children and grandchildren. It got the point
:19:02. > :19:05.where he and Gerry Adams were able recognise and meet with people on
:19:06. > :19:10.the one by one basis, but they were never able to get to the point where
:19:11. > :19:17.they would look back and say what was the point of this violence?
:19:18. > :19:21.Politics would have offered... The somebody who was very skilled at
:19:22. > :19:26.politics and talking to people, would have offered a much better
:19:27. > :19:31.read. That is why I am saying John Hume and the peace process started
:19:32. > :19:39.had enormous critics because of what he undertook and people talk about
:19:40. > :19:43.crossing bridges, journeys, all I can say is, I just hope the message
:19:44. > :19:48.that goes out to younger people is that the violence is not necessary.
:19:49. > :19:53.Politics can get you there but of course politics is a hard and
:19:54. > :19:56.difficult road and the essence of politics is you have days when you
:19:57. > :20:04.are up and down. Let's good to our audience. The difficulties some of
:20:05. > :20:09.us have is that Martin McGuinness said he was proud of his IRA past,
:20:10. > :20:17.and he said that very recently. That is the difficulty for victims and
:20:18. > :20:25.others looking on. Was he really a true peacemaker for saying that?
:20:26. > :20:29.There was no doubt he was a proud republican but if he went through it
:20:30. > :20:39.all again and not had to go through the conflict, he would have chosen
:20:40. > :20:44.not to go to the conflict and had a settlement in 19691970, there were
:20:45. > :20:50.opportunities. What I am saying is Martin and many Republicans were
:20:51. > :20:54.brought up in the circumstances of the environment they lived in and
:20:55. > :20:56.people from other countries were in the same circumstance they would
:20:57. > :21:04.have found themselves doing the same thing. I understand absolutely that
:21:05. > :21:07.there are different views in terms of Martin, but Republicans have
:21:08. > :21:15.different views of other players than the conflict. I was thinking
:21:16. > :21:23.today when Margaret Thatcher died, and she was hated, and Martin
:21:24. > :21:29.McGuinness made the statement then and said, regardless of her views,
:21:30. > :21:34.celebrating her death is inappropriate. He showed leadership
:21:35. > :21:39.even though he had every reason to hate Margaret Thatcher and every
:21:40. > :21:43.reason to hate many people involved in this conflict. He put that one
:21:44. > :21:53.side for the better outcomes of this community and is part of Ireland. We
:21:54. > :22:00.are so much about this legacy. It do not want to be bringing anything
:22:01. > :22:07.lower on this day for the family, but there was never an apology from
:22:08. > :22:10.Sinn Fein or from Mr McGuinness about any of the murders that were
:22:11. > :22:17.carried out. There was regretful lost lives. There was never an
:22:18. > :22:24.apology made to anybody who was murdered by the IRA. I remember
:22:25. > :22:31.there being a apology to non-competence. But did there have
:22:32. > :22:37.to be that the true reconciliation to happen, for Martin McGuinness to
:22:38. > :22:44.reach out in a meaningful way? I think there has to be. One of the
:22:45. > :22:46.reasons why we have not yet arrived reconciliation in Northern Ireland
:22:47. > :22:50.is because we have not had the proper acknowledgement is the need
:22:51. > :22:57.to happen, we have not had people coming forward and saying, it was
:22:58. > :23:02.wrong. But if they do not believe it was wrong, they will never say it.
:23:03. > :23:10.So it will be a long time waiting. Let's C. In the day we are in, the
:23:11. > :23:17.points made by the audience are very valid points. One of the regrets I
:23:18. > :23:21.have had is time is marching on and there are many victims I have met
:23:22. > :23:25.and families saying, we would like to know more about the truth, we
:23:26. > :23:29.would like to know and hear from the people who have that knowledge and
:23:30. > :23:34.information, we would like to know why, we would like an explanation as
:23:35. > :23:38.to why we were targeted, why he or she was killed and what was the
:23:39. > :23:44.value of that, why did that happen? Those are real questions. We will
:23:45. > :23:51.move towards the reconciliation we want to see in Northern Ireland.
:23:52. > :23:56.Those answers have to come. I would just say that there are many sides
:23:57. > :24:01.to people and from Martin McGuinness turned his back on the Troubles and
:24:02. > :24:07.entered into politics, he was very compassionate, I called him a
:24:08. > :24:11.peacemaker, in regards to historical institutions of child abuse, he
:24:12. > :24:17.welcomed us up the Stormont many times, even two weeks before he
:24:18. > :24:21.revealed he was very seriously ill. He met us and Protestant and
:24:22. > :24:28.Catholic people. That was something the DUP never did, always refused to
:24:29. > :24:38.meet victims of child abuse, even up until this day. Just to put the
:24:39. > :24:41.record straight, I have met the victims of abuse in my own
:24:42. > :24:47.constituency. I have met those families and victims. We will not
:24:48. > :25:02.dwell on this because it is a small but important part. You may be met
:25:03. > :25:12.one or two. Let's move on. Apology necessary, Brian Feeney? He can't
:25:13. > :25:16.apologise obviously but... There will never be an apology because the
:25:17. > :25:22.people involved in the IRA consider what they were doing was justifiable
:25:23. > :25:28.and correct. If you disagree with that, that is the way it is, though
:25:29. > :25:33.the people do. There has never been an apology from unionists for what
:25:34. > :25:37.they did for 50 years. They never admit they were responsible. David
:25:38. > :25:49.Trimble did say Northern Ireland was a courthouse for X. Is that an
:25:50. > :25:55.apology? -- for Catholics. Out of 50 years of systematic discrimination,
:25:56. > :26:05.that is a tiny thing to say. Refusing to build houses in case it
:26:06. > :26:09.increased the vote in places like Dungannon Deri, what can people at
:26:10. > :26:16.those? There is no apology and nobody asking for it because there
:26:17. > :26:21.is not one forthcoming. Get real. They did it because they thought
:26:22. > :26:25.they were doing something that was justifiable. I do not happen to
:26:26. > :26:30.think it was, the vast majority of people do not think it was, but the
:26:31. > :26:35.people who volunteered and did those things, they will not say, my life
:26:36. > :26:45.was a mistake. Let's leave it there and move on. Nicola Sturgeon once a
:26:46. > :26:55.second referendum for Brexit. Why can't we have a bird of poll --
:26:56. > :27:01.border poll? The Prime Minister has said now is not the time. MSPs were
:27:02. > :27:08.debating in Holyrood today and of course Sinn Fein have been saying,
:27:09. > :27:14.it is time for a voter poll is well. Lesley Riddoch, is the Prime
:27:15. > :27:18.Minister right? I was in the Scottish Parliament today where they
:27:19. > :27:22.started of the debate and the risk of sounding picky, it will actually
:27:23. > :27:27.be the Scottish Parliament needs to decide to enable Nicola Sturgeon to
:27:28. > :27:34.ask for that. These are not semantic things, this is the not the SNP as a
:27:35. > :27:36.party wanting this. This is the Scottish Parliament, democratic
:27:37. > :27:44.institution, deciding to that motion. At the moment, people are
:27:45. > :27:48.kind of a bit gobsmacked at the speed of events in Scotland and that
:27:49. > :27:52.is strange because we have been heading for this car crash since
:27:53. > :28:00.last June. 62% of Scots do not want to leave Europe. All the indications
:28:01. > :28:04.and opinion polls are it is the same percentage now, perhaps even more.
:28:05. > :28:08.There has been an attempt to get differentiated deal for Scotland.
:28:09. > :28:15.That polls suggest most people do not want another referendum. The way
:28:16. > :28:21.the polls have asked is, do you want one this year? Nobody, including
:28:22. > :28:29.Nicola Sturgeon above all, once one this year. 48% of people think that
:28:30. > :28:33.Theresa May's response, where she basically snubbed pretty well all
:28:34. > :28:38.the devolved parliaments, including the Northern Ireland assembly, that
:28:39. > :28:44.that was a mistake. So we are in the situation at the moment where people
:28:45. > :28:48.want to see something better, still can hardly believe that a UK
:28:49. > :28:52.Government will run roughshod over everybody that disagreed with them
:28:53. > :28:59.apart from the City of London, Nissan Gibraltar and the island of
:29:00. > :29:03.Ireland, you would have to hope. So Ireland and Scotland will be very
:29:04. > :29:06.linked because Scottish people are watching to see what solutions you
:29:07. > :29:11.come up here because of the border is not an active issue in the future
:29:12. > :29:13.for Ireland, it would be hard for the UK to say, it will be a complete
:29:14. > :29:22.no-no for an Scotland. Daithi McKay, the Good Friday
:29:23. > :29:25.agreement allows for a border poll but the Secretary of State thinks
:29:26. > :29:30.there will be a different outcome. There is no evidence it would be a
:29:31. > :29:33.different outcome this time round? The Secretary of State would never
:29:34. > :29:39.be biased in his analysis, I'm sure! I think they go on elections and
:29:40. > :29:45.such. There is now a unionist majority within the Assembly so
:29:46. > :29:49.there is doubt over what a referendum outcome might be. I don't
:29:50. > :29:58.actually like the term border poll. You mean a national list majority.
:29:59. > :30:05.Sorry? A nationalist majority. A unionist minority in the assembly.
:30:06. > :30:10.There's a certain grey area that. I don't like the terminology border
:30:11. > :30:14.poll. I think it conjures up images of negativity of what the border has
:30:15. > :30:18.represented many people for many years. I think it should be called
:30:19. > :30:21.an independence referendum, in the same way it was termed in Scotland
:30:22. > :30:26.and people should put forward their vision of what independence on this
:30:27. > :30:33.island would look like. I do certainly get a sense that things
:30:34. > :30:37.are moving. I've spoken to many prominent unionists, especially from
:30:38. > :30:41.the farming community, would actually accept a change in the
:30:42. > :30:47.constitutional status, given what they see down the line, in terms of
:30:48. > :30:53.a potentially hard border, agricultural goods coming down the
:30:54. > :30:55.goods ink as well. The Brexit minister in London who clearly
:30:56. > :30:58.doesn't know what the border will look like. There is a lot of
:30:59. > :31:03.uncertainty out there about people's economic futures. I think we should
:31:04. > :31:07.have an independence referendum. I would like to see a united Ireland
:31:08. > :31:11.and a Republican but I would like to listen to other options. That has
:31:12. > :31:19.been some discussions about a united Ireland, where you would still have
:31:20. > :31:23.an assembly in Belfast. That is worth considering and certainly
:31:24. > :31:29.worth debating, but we need to have the debate. I think Brexit coming
:31:30. > :31:33.over the horizon, there are a lot of concerned communities along the
:31:34. > :31:36.border and I think we need to start listening to those communities and
:31:37. > :31:42.the impact that this is going to have on them. Joan Burton, do you
:31:43. > :31:47.want a border poll? I don't think it is appropriate at
:31:48. > :31:51.the moment, but there's no doubt that Brexit is an extraordinary,
:31:52. > :31:55.historical event and it is going to change things and the island of
:31:56. > :31:59.Ireland. I suspect it's going to change the United Kingdom
:32:00. > :32:07.enormously, because frankly when you look at the trade between Ireland
:32:08. > :32:13.and the UK, it's about 60 billion a year back and forward. We have no
:32:14. > :32:19.idea as yet what's going to happen over the next two years, in terms of
:32:20. > :32:28.a settlement. I've met people from farming backgrounds in Ulster. Their
:32:29. > :32:32.families stay here in north and perhaps using meat factories in the
:32:33. > :32:36.south. The notion that there would be a hard border, leave the politics
:32:37. > :32:41.out of it, just from the point of view of people with businesses and
:32:42. > :32:48.jobs, trying to get on with it, is actually incredibly difficult. I
:32:49. > :32:57.suppose... What you think about this talk of electronic borders. I think
:32:58. > :33:05.you called it the Lycra option. The Prime Minister Enda Kenny and her
:33:06. > :33:10.met a few months ago and they said they wanted it frictionless and
:33:11. > :33:14.seamless. I said it is the Lycra option, it sounds great... In terms
:33:15. > :33:21.of the different members of the House of Commons who have been
:33:22. > :33:26.visiting the Republic, a lot of the people who like Owen are pro-Brexit,
:33:27. > :33:31.are extremely exuberant about it. They don't see any problems, where
:33:32. > :33:36.as the rest of us... We're living in the 44th year of our membership of
:33:37. > :33:41.the European Union. Just let me say this, going back to the previous
:33:42. > :33:47.discussion about Martin McGuinness' death, when Ireland joined the EU, I
:33:48. > :33:51.think Owen needs to be clear about this. When the Republic joined the
:33:52. > :33:55.EU, our relationship with Britain shared for ever and for the
:33:56. > :34:00.positive, because suddenly, sitting around those tables in Brussels, we
:34:01. > :34:06.were there as equals to the United Kingdom. So the obsession, if you
:34:07. > :34:12.like, with England as the old enemy change to being equal countries in a
:34:13. > :34:17.partnership of a union of quite a lot of countries. Are there problems
:34:18. > :34:24.with the European Union? Yes, of course there are. But we are going
:34:25. > :34:28.down a road, and perhaps Owen will enlighten us here tonight... Let's
:34:29. > :34:32.give him the opportunity. In the island of Ireland and the UK,
:34:33. > :34:39.between both countries there is about 400,000 jobs involved in,
:34:40. > :34:43.between the two Islands. You're not sanguine but wildly enthusiastic.
:34:44. > :34:47.How can you reassure Joan Burton and everyone else in this room who is so
:34:48. > :34:53.concerned? First of all, I ask answer the
:34:54. > :34:57.question about border poll. I was conscious as Secretary of State it
:34:58. > :35:01.was important to call for a border poll if the polls showed there was a
:35:02. > :35:07.chance for a result promoting a united Ireland. The last poll I saw
:35:08. > :35:12.was in September, which showed 63% wanting to stay within the United
:35:13. > :35:15.Kingdom and only 22% wanting Northern Ireland to join a united
:35:16. > :35:22.Ireland. A lot has changed since then. So I'd say there is no grounds
:35:23. > :35:28.for calling a border poll. But I entirely agree with everything Joan
:35:29. > :35:32.said. To have a hard border, as is being painted, as this awful, spooky
:35:33. > :35:36.vision would be an absolute nonsense. The Common travel area,
:35:37. > :35:40.through some very difficult times between the Republic and the United
:35:41. > :35:48.Kingdom, has been a huge success. We will get under it... I want to let
:35:49. > :35:54.you continue but Brian Feeney says Common travel area talk is waffle.
:35:55. > :36:02.It's not, it's very real. I will let you elaborate and interject O'Brien.
:36:03. > :36:05.First of all parties on all sides are clear we want to keep the Common
:36:06. > :36:10.travel area. Has been a report from both houses saying they wanted to
:36:11. > :36:15.keep it. When I was here the then Immigration Minister signed an
:36:16. > :36:18.understanding, upgrading the Common travel area around the whole thing,
:36:19. > :36:22.which has been an enormous advantage.
:36:23. > :36:27.On the issue of the border, there are just so many international cases
:36:28. > :36:30.where modern technology shows you can have different regimes, and
:36:31. > :36:34.there is one today on the island of Ireland. There are different tax
:36:35. > :36:39.regimes in Northern Ireland and in Southern Ireland and it's not a
:36:40. > :36:47.problem. Today 10,500 trucks will go across the border from Ontario to
:36:48. > :36:51.Detroit and another 5000 across the border at Buffalo. These are what
:36:52. > :36:55.the Americans happily describe as alien trucks with alien drivers and
:36:56. > :37:00.alien goods and they hardly bothered to change gear. If you look at the
:37:01. > :37:03.Russian Finnish border, that's gone down from two days to about half an
:37:04. > :37:07.hour. If you look at what the Iranians and Pakistanis have done,
:37:08. > :37:12.about as fraught border as anywhere in the world, that has been the
:37:13. > :37:17.trial... That is a hard border with soft bits. These are real hard
:37:18. > :37:23.borders. There is such good now, Joan rightly says Bigfoot between
:37:24. > :37:25.the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, such huge trade,
:37:26. > :37:32.there will be a sensible arrangement. As the Taoiseach and
:37:33. > :37:35.power Prime Minister have said, and all doable with modern technology.
:37:36. > :37:41.And it happens every day. The TR I system has been going since the
:37:42. > :37:45.1950s. Something like 3 million... Tens of thousands of border
:37:46. > :37:50.movements per day. There one and a half million tonnes of goods that go
:37:51. > :37:55.on trucks to the Republic of Ireland and across again to the United
:37:56. > :37:58.Kingdom's roads and nobody notices, nobody knows about and it happens.
:37:59. > :38:02.Let's just enjoy technology and work towards seamless border. Absolutely
:38:03. > :38:09.right. The gentleman in the front row? Do you think talk of a border
:38:10. > :38:15.poll or the attitude of the Scottish Nationalists as a distraction? And
:38:16. > :38:21.the people who were opposed to Brexit, they are in denial. That
:38:22. > :38:25.reality is the United Kingdom voted to come out. All energy should be
:38:26. > :38:32.focused on getting the best possible deal. Do you agree? And the
:38:33. > :38:37.gentleman in a checked shirt? I think personally, I was listening
:38:38. > :38:42.to Daithi McKay, and he talked about uncertainty. To be honest I think
:38:43. > :38:45.Sinn Fein and the SNP are trying to capitalise on feelings of
:38:46. > :38:50.uncertainty at the moment by calling for these polls. I would suggest
:38:51. > :38:53.wisdom dictates and we should wait to see what the agreement looks like
:38:54. > :38:58.we can have a poll in the future. And the gentleman in the red tie? I
:38:59. > :39:01.work and lived in Derry. In the moment in the north-west we've had
:39:02. > :39:05.lots of issues in relation to infrastructure. The last thing we
:39:06. > :39:09.need is a physical barrier on the border stopping trade coming in. It
:39:10. > :39:13.would be a disaster for our economy. The constituency was the second
:39:14. > :39:20.highest of any council district in the British Isles to vote to remain
:39:21. > :39:24.in. You have to remember Northern Ireland was against it and it's
:39:25. > :39:28.going to be an absolute disaster. We are concerned at the moment, the
:39:29. > :39:33.government is concerned with storm and but we should be concerned with
:39:34. > :39:37.Brexit. Brian Feeney, have you been reassure? By the Secretary of State?
:39:38. > :39:43.The British government has no policy on what to do with the border.
:39:44. > :39:47.Furthermore, it's not up to them to decide. Look, it's not up to them to
:39:48. > :39:52.decide. There are 27 other countries who will sit round the table and
:39:53. > :39:57.tell the British what they agree. All the talk... But one of them,
:39:58. > :39:59.Ireland, is going to be going in, saying we pretty much want what
:40:00. > :40:07.Northern Ireland once. They will try to have... The phrase
:40:08. > :40:12.Taoiseach and Theresa May used was as seamless border as possible, not
:40:13. > :40:17.seamless. They won't have one. There are hundreds of millions of litres
:40:18. > :40:20.of milk transferred north and south every day, to make yoghurt.
:40:21. > :40:29.Backwards and forwards. You are going to have two different systems
:40:30. > :40:34.of tax, or tariffs outside the single market and inside. We are
:40:35. > :40:37.going to be outside the customs union. There's no point shaking your
:40:38. > :40:45.head. He says there already are different tax regimes. I'm talking
:40:46. > :40:54.about tariffs. Yes. The North will be outside the single market. So far
:40:55. > :40:59.what seems to come from most pro-Brexit Tories is your leaving
:41:00. > :41:04.the single market and you're also probably leaving the customs union,
:41:05. > :41:07.maybe with some reservations around financial services and a couple of
:41:08. > :41:11.other things. But take the situation of the Republic of Ireland and
:41:12. > :41:17.Northern Ireland and Scotland, and indeed Wales as well. Agriculture
:41:18. > :41:24.and agricultural exports are of tremendous importance, both in terms
:41:25. > :41:29.of an farm and jobs in processing. If that is going to revert, if you
:41:30. > :41:34.are leaving the customs union, as is being suggested, that means that at
:41:35. > :41:41.the very worst case scenario, and I hope it won't come to this, you're
:41:42. > :41:46.going to have two comply with World Trade Organisation rules. In that
:41:47. > :41:50.case the tariffs or the tax is charged on agricultural imports into
:41:51. > :41:54.another country... This is getting a little complex for the time we have.
:41:55. > :41:57.Jeffrey Donaldson, you will be behind Owen Paterson all the way on
:41:58. > :42:02.this of course about what to say to these concerns?
:42:03. > :42:07.I made unionists but sometimes you have to pinch yourself when the
:42:08. > :42:09.people talking up the border are the Nationalists not the Unionists. I
:42:10. > :42:16.find it difficult to square an argument... We don't want one. Why
:42:17. > :42:18.do you talk it up all the time then question what you are obsessed with
:42:19. > :42:23.the border. I forgot about the border years ago. Are we supposed to
:42:24. > :42:27.believe that? In terms of nationalism... You heard
:42:28. > :42:33.it first on Spotlight Special! LAUGHTER
:42:34. > :42:36.I voted for independence last June when I hear Nationalists who want
:42:37. > :42:41.all this power for themselves, wanting to give the power away to
:42:42. > :42:45.Brussels, then what is nationalism about? What does it stand for in the
:42:46. > :42:50.modern Europe when Nationalists say we want to give all the power away
:42:51. > :42:53.to these unelected people in Brussels? I'm Unionists, I believe
:42:54. > :42:57.in the United Kingdom, and that's where we are going to remain.
:42:58. > :43:01.APPLAUSE Go-ahead, sir.
:43:02. > :43:07.Wouldn't it make more sense to put the border in the Irish Sea and have
:43:08. > :43:10.oil of Ireland together? That was the suggestion of Mervyn King, the
:43:11. > :43:14.former governor of the Bank of England will stop we can discuss
:43:15. > :43:18.that. Gentleman in the white shirt? Just to clear up your point on the
:43:19. > :43:23.border and why we are so obsessed with it. As Brian Feeney said
:43:24. > :43:25.earlier, Irish people got into these negotiations because we wanted
:43:26. > :43:36.self-determination. We're now getting dragged out against our
:43:37. > :43:39.determination. Let me finish. Our concerns with the border, if I had
:43:40. > :43:43.border goes back up it could wreck the peace process from certain
:43:44. > :43:47.people's views. From my generation, people who don't want to go back to
:43:48. > :43:51.that, we don't want to see trouble starting again. Let's unpack that
:43:52. > :43:54.statement for a moment, unpack the statement we've just heard. They had
:43:55. > :43:59.border could threaten the peace process. In other words, the guns
:44:00. > :44:02.and bombs will come out again because certain people can't access
:44:03. > :44:10.that we have a democratic vote and the vote didn't go the way they
:44:11. > :44:14.wanted. I don't believe in that, I believe in democracy. If the
:44:15. > :44:19.decision in 1998, if there was a referendum here... I voted against
:44:20. > :44:23.and lost the vote and I accepted the Democratic outcome. That's what
:44:24. > :44:27.democracy means. When you have a vote, the United Kingdom vote on the
:44:28. > :44:30.boat doesn't go the way you want it, please don't threaten us with guns
:44:31. > :44:38.and bombs because you don't like the democratic outcome. Scotland also
:44:39. > :44:41.voted to remain, 62-38. How do you address that problem, that question
:44:42. > :45:03.of nationalism? We talk about what we could expect
:45:04. > :45:09.for Brexit. As far as tariffs are concerned, what is the script with
:45:10. > :45:12.the Tory party? At the moment, we're being told in Scotland that the
:45:13. > :45:17.powers over agriculture and fisheries will not come back to the
:45:18. > :45:20.Scottish Parliament because there might be different harassed in
:45:21. > :45:25.different parts of Britain. It seems like there is one set of abilities
:45:26. > :45:29.to seek board is not been proportioned when it is Ireland,
:45:30. > :45:38.now, Brexit or difficult, and when it comes to the rest of the UK, it
:45:39. > :45:50.is just no can do, so which is it? We want reciprocal free trade with
:45:51. > :45:56.everybody. I give going to give us agriculture and fisheries? Large
:45:57. > :46:06.elements of it. It is a completely devolved authority. I did this when
:46:07. > :46:10.I was dean Defra. The UK and before every council meeting, we had a
:46:11. > :46:13.meeting with devolved ministers, and the SNP minister always turned up
:46:14. > :46:17.with a long list of requirements for me to get through, hoping I would
:46:18. > :46:24.fail, but am pretty well everything, even on last night of 2am when we
:46:25. > :46:28.had negotiations with Chancellor Merkel and her chancellery, I was
:46:29. > :46:32.trying to get something for Scotland. It is the future I was
:46:33. > :46:38.asking you about. There has to be one negotiating country representing
:46:39. > :46:41.all international bodies, and we will get our full seat back with
:46:42. > :46:52.Brexit in our ability to negotiate and vote on all world bodies. That
:46:53. > :47:00.has to be the UK. You cannot answer yes or no, can you? We want
:47:01. > :47:16.reciprocal free trade. There is a huge deficit. This is very
:47:17. > :47:21.important. We also must move on. Owen Paterson says that the food
:47:22. > :47:30.coming across, bottle, into America is alien trade and alien food. The
:47:31. > :47:35.truth is, I'll write in the UK want to trade with each other but as you
:47:36. > :47:42.rightly said it is 27 member states will make that decision, but it is
:47:43. > :47:46.not just coming from the Republic of Ireland into the UK that is the
:47:47. > :47:52.issue here. There are other countries in the EU that export to
:47:53. > :47:56.the UK. The United Kingdom is only 60% self sufficient and they are
:47:57. > :48:00.dependent on EU states and another Owen Paterson says he wants free
:48:01. > :48:03.trade with everyone, he's making a big mistake because I do not think
:48:04. > :48:12.the 27 member states will allow that. I will have to move you one.
:48:13. > :48:22.Thank you, sir. We have just run out of time on that one. If the
:48:23. > :48:27.power-sharing negotiations fail, is there any alternative to either
:48:28. > :48:34.direct or another election? We note that this is the last week. Time
:48:35. > :48:38.runs out next Monday at 4:30pm. But the secretary once again it will
:48:39. > :48:43.organise by the end of this week so parties have time to go back to the
:48:44. > :48:50.members and discuss it. Is he a super optimist? Who knows? I would
:48:51. > :48:55.imagine that with all the difficulty stacking up for the Conservatives,
:48:56. > :49:01.the last thing they want in addition to the Scottish Nationalist threat
:49:02. > :49:03.is anything to do with trying to run Northern Ireland directly from
:49:04. > :49:10.London. That has got to be the last thing that this government wants.
:49:11. > :49:14.Bescot be huge pressure to try to encourage some sort of weight to
:49:15. > :49:19.keep the show on the road. I would have thought that from the point of
:49:20. > :49:21.view of a lot of Scottish people, people are really hoping that
:49:22. > :49:29.something can be pulled together here. We are right at the quick of
:49:30. > :49:33.the difficulties now. And it does look like has come to one of these
:49:34. > :49:39.points again, which everyone feared at the beginning would be total
:49:40. > :49:44.roadblocks. And yet, up until now, through force of character,
:49:45. > :49:47.perseverance, all sorts of compromise, you have managed to
:49:48. > :49:51.overcome that, and I'm sure a lot of people are watching and hoping that
:49:52. > :49:55.somehow you do not get direct rule back in Northern Ireland because
:49:56. > :50:01.that is a backward and retrograde direction which in Ireland at least
:50:02. > :50:05.nobody wants. It is the last of three weeks of negotiations and we
:50:06. > :50:12.have not even had a plenary session yet. It will not happen. There will
:50:13. > :50:19.not be a settlement on Monday. The basic position is this assumption is
:50:20. > :50:26.that if Arlene Foster were to stand aside... If she did, it does not
:50:27. > :50:33.follow the would be an executive because there is a whole list of
:50:34. > :50:37.other requirements. You listen to what Sinn Fein say and believe the
:50:38. > :50:41.or you don't. When Gerry Adams says there will be no return to the
:50:42. > :50:47.status quo and Michelle O'Neill says that there will have to be a
:50:48. > :50:52.complete change, not business as usual, that means that they have a
:50:53. > :50:56.list of demands which have nothing to do with forming an executive. So
:50:57. > :51:02.there will not be an executive formed next week. So an election or
:51:03. > :51:07.direct rule? The Secretary of State is required to call an election if
:51:08. > :51:14.there is nothing after three weeks. But there is a cork is from ten
:51:15. > :51:17.years ago or so when the Secretary of State was not calling an
:51:18. > :51:23.election, there was a zombie assembly. How dare you! The
:51:24. > :51:28.Secretary of State must call an election was the decision but in a
:51:29. > :51:31.reasonable period. Obviously, the Secretary of State could not say, we
:51:32. > :51:37.will have an election in the next three weeks because of Easter. No
:51:38. > :51:42.court will step in and told the Secretary of State, you must have an
:51:43. > :51:46.election on the 27th of June because the court would decide they would
:51:47. > :51:51.not interfere in politics. So a reasonable period could last a long
:51:52. > :51:57.time. I know certainly the British government does not want to have
:51:58. > :52:01.direct rule and no parties want to go back to direct rule. Jeffrey
:52:02. > :52:06.Donaldson, you have been making encouraging noises in the last
:52:07. > :52:10.couple of weeks. Are you as convinced as Brian Feeney that
:52:11. > :52:16.nothing will happen? I do not share his pessimism but I do recognise
:52:17. > :52:21.that it would be difficult to achieve this in the next few days,
:52:22. > :52:29.especially with the events of today. But I do believe that what we have
:52:30. > :52:32.in front of us, the hill to climb in front of us, is not any higher than
:52:33. > :52:37.the mountains we have climbed already in Northern Ireland. And we
:52:38. > :52:45.have come a long way. We are at Stormont, we are working daily,
:52:46. > :52:47.there have been plenty of bilateral discussions, hard-nosed discussions
:52:48. > :52:52.about the issues that need to be resolved, and I believe we have made
:52:53. > :53:00.some progress on those issues. Like the Irish language? Give us a clue.
:53:01. > :53:04.It remains to be seen whether we will get agreement on and I will not
:53:05. > :53:11.compromise the integrity of the process but if there is a will,
:53:12. > :53:15.there is a way. I am convinced that if the people in Northern Ireland
:53:16. > :53:19.want to see Stormont up and running, they want to see parties delivering
:53:20. > :53:22.government, and some of the parties who let the government after the
:53:23. > :53:26.elections last year are now indicating to us that they want to
:53:27. > :53:30.be back in government, and I think that is a positive development, it
:53:31. > :53:36.is an indication to what we been hearing is, we do not want to go to
:53:37. > :53:46.direct rule. Direct rule or an election or compromise? I think
:53:47. > :53:50.everybody wants to see the compromise being made. One of the
:53:51. > :53:57.biggest problems is the Secretary of State, and he would not be the first
:53:58. > :54:02.been that position. In that action they believe him to be a player, not
:54:03. > :54:07.the referee. He made an extraordinary statement in February
:54:08. > :54:12.in regards to cases from the past involving British soldiers, and to
:54:13. > :54:21.do that. That was when he said there was a disproportionate emphasis...
:54:22. > :54:28.And to undermine legal process is was an extraordinary thing to do.
:54:29. > :54:33.Then he expects to pull up a chair and chaired talks between all the
:54:34. > :54:39.parties. But ultimately, you have to get on with the DUP, don't you? He
:54:40. > :54:43.is a key player because one of the issues is dealing with the past and
:54:44. > :54:48.issues that have hung around since the conflict. All those things need
:54:49. > :54:56.to be dealt with. There can be no return to direct rule. Republicans
:54:57. > :54:59.did come out in major numbers to send a clear message that they
:55:00. > :55:03.needed to be taken more seriously in the future because we have a
:55:04. > :55:08.unionist minority here in the north and it cannot be the case that we
:55:09. > :55:15.return to a direct rule situation. If there is to be a situation where
:55:16. > :55:20.there is no agreement, there has to be some government involvement in
:55:21. > :55:31.the running of the North. Joan Burton? Get in the! All I can say is
:55:32. > :55:33.that anyone who sees the benefit of the Belfast agreement to people
:55:34. > :55:38.right across the community in Northern Ireland has to say that no
:55:39. > :55:42.one wants to see a return to direct rule. When you think of all those
:55:43. > :55:47.young people who have grown up, free to go out at night, free to go where
:55:48. > :55:55.ever they want. How would direct rule change that? I think it would
:55:56. > :56:02.be deeply unsettling and unacceptable in particular to the
:56:03. > :56:05.nationalist community at a time during Brexit. I know Jeffrey has a
:56:06. > :56:18.case that Brexit will be wonderful but I think Brexit is challenging.
:56:19. > :56:22.To actually forego an administration working in the north of Ireland to
:56:23. > :56:27.do its best for the North of Ireland, to do its best for the
:56:28. > :56:33.island of Ireland, I genuinely think there needs to be a stream within
:56:34. > :56:38.that Brexit process which actually addresses the island of Ireland and
:56:39. > :56:43.specifically the issue of Northern Ireland. We kind of mood of the
:56:44. > :56:47.question a little bit. I am saying I do not want to see direct rule, I
:56:48. > :56:52.think that would be a disaster. What about an election? That is an
:56:53. > :56:59.enormous insult to all those people who went out and voted and say, you
:57:00. > :57:03.have to get out then do it again in another few weeks. Provisions exist
:57:04. > :57:07.within structures to have an extension. The events of the next
:57:08. > :57:14.few days will mean that various parties negotiations will be turned
:57:15. > :57:20.up. People need an extra couple of weeks, perhaps President Trump might
:57:21. > :57:25.send an envoy to deliver his particular insights, it has happened
:57:26. > :57:31.before. The EU played a role, the Americans played a role, parties
:57:32. > :57:43.themselves play the role, we will elbow. Let me bring in a couple of
:57:44. > :57:49.people. We come to this decision again whenever the national start
:57:50. > :57:55.talking again about problems, we talk about, going back to the old
:57:56. > :57:57.days, I do not know why it is that whenever nationalists and
:57:58. > :58:03.republicans stop feeling they are under some kind of pressure, and
:58:04. > :58:07.that we should do something above the normal conversation, they always
:58:08. > :58:14.revert back to this, we might go back to the old days. Why is that? I
:58:15. > :58:19.really hope that political talks go well but please can somebody make
:58:20. > :58:27.decisions about our budget? It is really important because people need
:58:28. > :58:32.to know what is happening. It is time to vote for the Alliance Party
:58:33. > :58:38.because if you vote for Michelle all Arlene, you will get Theresa May.
:58:39. > :58:46.Owen Paterson, does Theresa May want direct rule at this particular
:58:47. > :58:50.juncture in history? Absolutely not. There is absolutely nobody I know in
:58:51. > :58:55.Parliament now wants to see direct rule. I was in the tearoom yesterday
:58:56. > :58:58.and people were talking about it, in complete agreement... And perhaps
:58:59. > :59:03.today something good will come out of it. All those news programmes on
:59:04. > :59:08.the reruns and those terrible films being shown are just a reminder for
:59:09. > :59:14.everyone of what Northern Ireland has been through and how far it is,,
:59:15. > :59:16.and it's got there with some hideously difficult decisions being
:59:17. > :59:22.made by people like John Major earlier on and followed on by Tony
:59:23. > :59:27.Blair. You had bipartisan agreement in Westminster and in Dublin and
:59:28. > :59:33.bipartisan agreement in the United States. So there is massive support
:59:34. > :59:38.for these institutions. There is honestly nobody in the tearoom who
:59:39. > :59:41.wants direct rule at all. So I think there's a few days left. I thought
:59:42. > :59:48.it was four o'clock on Monday afternoon... That's what I said. You
:59:49. > :59:56.said 4:30pm. I beg your pardon, I'm sorry! The lady at the back is
:59:57. > :00:01.absolutely spot on. Somebody has got to set a budget. Bills have got to
:00:02. > :00:04.be paid. I keep in touch with Northern Ireland and I talk to
:00:05. > :00:09.people here quite a lot and see if I can help in some ways. I can tell
:00:10. > :00:13.you, there is absolute exasperation with the political class at the
:00:14. > :00:23.moment, in not getting together and working together... What is the
:00:24. > :00:26.problem? It's a local politicians. It's not for some Westminster
:00:27. > :00:32.politician to swan in, it's for the local politicians to sit down. There
:00:33. > :00:37.have been nine years of effort and misery and hard work on three major
:00:38. > :00:42.international governments to get things up and running and now there
:00:43. > :00:46.are days left in which to get the working -- them working again. I
:00:47. > :00:50.just hope everyone will go back home later, there will be more news
:00:51. > :00:54.programmes tonight... Just remember what Northern Ireland has been
:00:55. > :00:56.through and the support internationally to get Northern
:00:57. > :01:00.Ireland have these institutions. They need to be up and running by
:01:01. > :01:05.four o'clock, possibly for 30 PM, in the afternoon. The lady at the front
:01:06. > :01:12.row there. I agree that direct rule is a
:01:13. > :01:17.retrograde step. But, for example, if we had direct rule for a short
:01:18. > :01:22.period, somebody might finally ring about efficiency in areas like
:01:23. > :01:29.health, where we have had successive reports about closing hospitals and
:01:30. > :01:33.nobody, including the latest minister Michele O'Neil has done
:01:34. > :01:39.anything about it. Thank you, the gentleman just behind you?
:01:40. > :01:43.To avoid situations like the one we are in, with the possibility of
:01:44. > :01:54.eight cross community coalition in the fume future help? -- in the
:01:55. > :01:57.future help? I think the majority of people do not want direct rule but
:01:58. > :02:01.whenever they come to a settlement this time, it has to be a definitive
:02:02. > :02:05.settlement. It can't be yet another answer to yet another crisis.
:02:06. > :02:08.Charities and community groups across the North are having to let
:02:09. > :02:13.people go. Every year it seems to be the same. A budget crisis, nothing
:02:14. > :02:17.can be agreed. This solution has to be definitive. I think it has to
:02:18. > :02:23.address issues that were agreed in the past, like an Irish language and
:02:24. > :02:27.Bill of Rights. Everyone the table nodding in agreement. We will leave
:02:28. > :02:32.the last word on this occasion with our audience. Thank you. Thank you
:02:33. > :02:35.to our panel, thank you to our studio audience who have been most
:02:36. > :02:39.enthusiastic and you are home for watching. You can continue to debate
:02:40. > :02:49.online using the hashtag spotlight NIA. Until next time, a very good
:02:50. > :02:53.night. -- using #SpotlightNI.