3:16:16 > 3:16:20It's just five days since Martin McGuinness's funeral provided
3:16:20 > 3:16:22this moment of accord.
3:16:23 > 3:16:26But the coming together did not last.
3:16:26 > 3:16:30That handshake represented a reaching out, but the inclusivity
3:16:30 > 3:16:35that that represents was not then carried forward into the talks.
3:16:35 > 3:16:38The DUP didn't approach it with the right attitude.
3:16:38 > 3:16:39They weren't prepared to bring
3:16:39 > 3:16:42forward mechanisms and deal with the issues.
3:16:42 > 3:16:45The talks have collapsed. There is no government.
3:16:45 > 3:16:48Stormont once again is in crisis.
3:16:48 > 3:16:51It is extremely disappointing that an Executive
3:16:51 > 3:16:55has not been formed in Northern Ireland today.
3:16:55 > 3:16:59As the Prime Minister triggers Brexit, the union is on her mind.
3:16:59 > 3:17:03When this great union of nations, England, Scotland, Wales and
3:17:03 > 3:17:07Northern Ireland, sets its mind on something and works together
3:17:07 > 3:17:11with determination, we are an unstoppable force.
3:17:11 > 3:17:15But have nationalists' electoral gains put the union on the line?
3:17:15 > 3:17:18It also clearly was a vote for Irish unity.
3:17:18 > 3:17:22While one key constant of the devolved era is gone.
3:17:23 > 3:17:28..was I physically able or capable of fighting an intensive
3:17:28 > 3:17:33five, six-week election in the current state that I'm in?
3:17:33 > 3:17:36And the answer to that was no.
3:17:36 > 3:17:39Even though it...
3:17:39 > 3:17:40breaks my heart.
3:17:46 > 3:17:50It's more than 20 years since Martin McGuinness led his Sinn Fein
3:17:50 > 3:17:54team into this building for the first official talks with the
3:17:54 > 3:17:55British government.
3:17:55 > 3:18:00From that point he was focused on rebuilding political institutions.
3:18:00 > 3:18:05Over the last decade he was key to sustaining government at Stormont.
3:18:05 > 3:18:08He built it up, but he also tore it down.
3:18:08 > 3:18:11So what's next now that he's gone?
3:18:34 > 3:18:38It wasn't a state funeral but it looked a bit like one.
3:18:38 > 3:18:42Right down to the flag-covered coffin allowed into the church.
3:18:42 > 3:18:45A special exception made for Martin McGuinness.
3:18:46 > 3:18:51Vast crowds of people came from the Bogside and far beyond.
3:18:51 > 3:18:56Political leaders of all shades. Prime ministers past and present.
3:18:56 > 3:19:01Presidents. And of course Bill Clinton stole the show.
3:19:01 > 3:19:03They asked me to speak for three minutes.
3:19:03 > 3:19:07He could do this in 30 seconds. I can just hear him now.
3:19:07 > 3:19:12"Here's my eulogy. I fought, I made peace, I made politics."
3:19:13 > 3:19:19He earned the right to ask us
3:19:19 > 3:19:24to honour his legacy by our living.
3:19:24 > 3:19:29To finish the work that is there to be done.
3:19:29 > 3:19:32But what is that legacy?
3:19:32 > 3:19:36Martin McGuinness was not a terrorist.
3:19:37 > 3:19:39CHEERING
3:19:39 > 3:19:43Martin McGuinness was a freedom fighter.
3:19:43 > 3:19:46CHEERING
3:19:46 > 3:19:50There was no greater way to insult my community,
3:19:50 > 3:19:53to devalue them and to debase them,
3:19:53 > 3:19:57by saying that a man was a freedom fighter who'd done
3:19:57 > 3:20:00all that Martin McGuinness had done in his early years.
3:20:04 > 3:20:08The paradox of Martin McGuinness the peacemaker is that his career
3:20:08 > 3:20:10began in violence.
3:20:18 > 3:20:23He first emerged in the early 1970s as a spokesperson for what was
3:20:23 > 3:20:26a new, violent organisation.
3:20:28 > 3:20:33None of our intelligence units from the Waterside...
3:20:33 > 3:20:35The Provisional IRA.
3:20:37 > 3:20:40A group that rapidly left its mark on Derry.
3:20:40 > 3:20:42EXPLOSION
3:20:46 > 3:20:48EXPLOSION
3:20:48 > 3:20:51And a group that also in this city came under the control of
3:20:51 > 3:20:53Martin McGuinness.
3:20:55 > 3:20:59Now, as the officer commanding the Derry part of the IRA
3:20:59 > 3:21:03Provisional operation, can you say whether the bombing is likely
3:21:03 > 3:21:07to stop in the near future in response to any public demand?
3:21:07 > 3:21:11Well, er, we will always take into considerations the feelings
3:21:11 > 3:21:14of the people of Derry and these feelings will be passed on to
3:21:14 > 3:21:15our GHQ in Dublin, you know.
3:21:15 > 3:21:17Even at the age of 21,
3:21:17 > 3:21:22Martin McGuinness already stood out as a charismatic leader.
3:21:22 > 3:21:25He had a kind of angelic-looking face, innocent-looking face,
3:21:25 > 3:21:29and yet could speak with this Derry accent and, er...
3:21:29 > 3:21:34that was a mixture of doggedness and determination.
3:21:34 > 3:21:38Denis Bradley was a young priest in Londonderry at the time
3:21:38 > 3:21:40McGuinness's IRA was taking over.
3:21:45 > 3:21:48By the time internment happened in 1971,
3:21:48 > 3:21:52the argument against violence was being lost.
3:21:53 > 3:21:58Young people who had never previously taken part in riot situations
3:21:58 > 3:22:00because they were dubious about the morality of the whole thing
3:22:00 > 3:22:02immediately took part in it.
3:22:02 > 3:22:05All moderate argument has gone out the window.
3:22:05 > 3:22:08Bloody Sunday killed any hope of moderation returning.
3:22:08 > 3:22:11McGuinness was found to have been almost certainly carrying
3:22:11 > 3:22:15a gun that day but played no direct role in the events that led
3:22:15 > 3:22:18to the Parachute Regiment killing 13 people.
3:22:18 > 3:22:20In the aftermath, in Republican eyes,
3:22:20 > 3:22:25his IRA unit was cast as defenders of Catholics in the city.
3:22:25 > 3:22:28In the Bogside and across other parts of this city,
3:22:28 > 3:22:33Martin McGuinness was an established Republican hero and recognised IRA
3:22:33 > 3:22:38leader while he was still younger than many university students.
3:22:38 > 3:22:41A reputation like that couldn't be contained.
3:22:43 > 3:22:45He was the incarnation of all that was evil.
3:22:45 > 3:22:48He was the bogeyman of unionism.
3:22:48 > 3:22:53He was there to be the leader of the organisation that was trying
3:22:53 > 3:22:55to drive the Brits out of Ulster, and of course,
3:22:55 > 3:22:59with being a British citizen living in Northern Ireland and as
3:22:59 > 3:23:02this being British territory, that was a threat to our very
3:23:02 > 3:23:05existence, and he was the personification of that threat.
3:23:07 > 3:23:11But as far back as 1972 the Brits wanted to talk to
3:23:11 > 3:23:14this 22-year-old bogeyman.
3:23:16 > 3:23:21His rise really began after internment and Bloody Sunday,
3:23:21 > 3:23:28and he became such a senior figure in Derry that he was recognised
3:23:28 > 3:23:30as an important strategist as well as everything else.
3:23:30 > 3:23:34He was brought over to London for talks with the British government
3:23:34 > 3:23:38about a ceasefire in the summer of 1972,
3:23:38 > 3:23:43along with Gerry Adams and the chief of staff, Sean Mac Stiofain,
3:23:43 > 3:23:45and a couple of others.
3:23:54 > 3:23:57Those talks took place in the summer of 1972,
3:23:57 > 3:23:59during the worst period of the Troubles.
3:24:01 > 3:24:04Young Martin McGuinness went from the wreckage of Derry to
3:24:04 > 3:24:08a posh house in Chelsea to meet a member of the British government,
3:24:08 > 3:24:11Secretary of State Willie Whitelaw.
3:24:11 > 3:24:13Absolute crazy stuff.
3:24:13 > 3:24:16Crazy stuff that you thought that you could pull
3:24:16 > 3:24:18a youngster like Martin McGuinness and put him on
3:24:18 > 3:24:22a plane and put him over into Cheyne Walk, into the grandees.
3:24:22 > 3:24:25And the British hardly even knew where Derry was,
3:24:25 > 3:24:28never mind, you know... "Oh, Martin McGuinness, well, who..."
3:24:28 > 3:24:31You know, we'll bring these guys over and we'll have
3:24:31 > 3:24:37a wee chat with them in a nice plush house along the banks of the Thames?
3:24:37 > 3:24:41Crazy stuff. But it was part of the time. It was where we were at.
3:24:41 > 3:24:44I think Martin McGuinness learned the value of more subtle
3:24:44 > 3:24:46negotiation, because those 1972 talks
3:24:46 > 3:24:49were simply outright brinkmanship demands,
3:24:49 > 3:24:52naive demands from the IRA leadership,
3:24:52 > 3:24:56simply wanting a united Ireland or bust, and wanting it very quickly.
3:24:58 > 3:25:00The IRA had three uncompromising demands -
3:25:00 > 3:25:03all-Ireland self-determination,
3:25:03 > 3:25:07British withdrawal by 1975 and the release of prisoners.
3:25:08 > 3:25:13The Provisional IRA will not stop the fight until the three
3:25:13 > 3:25:16demands that we have put to Mr Whitelaw are met.
3:25:16 > 3:25:19But the man who would one day become Sinn Fein's chief negotiator
3:25:19 > 3:25:21had much to learn.
3:25:22 > 3:25:26They were so politically naive that they had an idea that
3:25:26 > 3:25:29a man was going to walk in some day with
3:25:29 > 3:25:32a letter from the Prime Minister of Britain saying, "I'm going to
3:25:32 > 3:25:37"withdraw my troops and my people and my power out of Ireland."
3:25:37 > 3:25:39EXPLOSION
3:25:44 > 3:25:48Not surprisingly, the British didn't meet the demands.
3:25:48 > 3:25:51The talking didn't last long.
3:25:51 > 3:25:54EXPLOSION
3:25:54 > 3:25:56McGuinness went back to what he knew in the IRA.
3:25:56 > 3:26:01Now a known senior IRA figure, he spent a lot of time on the run.
3:26:03 > 3:26:06- NEWSREEL:- McGuinness, still disguised with dyed hair and
3:26:06 > 3:26:08a recently grown moustache,
3:26:08 > 3:26:11were driven off to the Mountjoy Prison to shouts of
3:26:11 > 3:26:14"Up the Provos" from their supporters.
3:26:14 > 3:26:18The running was interrupted in 1973 when he was arrested
3:26:18 > 3:26:22in the Republic with ammunition and explosives and sent to jail.
3:26:23 > 3:26:26There were 30 policemen in the little courtroom
3:26:26 > 3:26:28during the brief hearing.
3:26:28 > 3:26:32McGuinness refused to accept the jurisdiction of the court.
3:26:32 > 3:26:36He said, "My loyalties lie with the 32-county state.
3:26:36 > 3:26:39"That's a united Ireland state."
3:26:39 > 3:26:42And he added, "This is a framed-up charge."
3:26:42 > 3:26:47Martin McGuinness later claimed this was the period when he left the IRA.
3:26:47 > 3:26:49Few people believed him.
3:26:50 > 3:26:52I don't think he ever left the IRA.
3:26:52 > 3:26:54The IRA still exists.
3:26:54 > 3:26:57And he certainly didn't leave it in 1974.
3:26:57 > 3:27:01After 1974, he really... It's arguable that his IRA career
3:27:01 > 3:27:04was only getting off the ground.
3:27:05 > 3:27:08He was a commander in the Provisional IRA, said so,
3:27:08 > 3:27:10boasted about it.
3:27:10 > 3:27:12The fact that he was the commander of the Provisionals,
3:27:12 > 3:27:15he said number two in command, it was always our belief,
3:27:15 > 3:27:18it was always our position that he was in the Army Council
3:27:18 > 3:27:21and the leading member in the Army Council of Provos,
3:27:21 > 3:27:24so death was his business, murder was his game.
3:27:24 > 3:27:27The key event in the Republican movement
3:27:27 > 3:27:31was the creation of Northern Command in 1976.
3:27:31 > 3:27:35McGuinness became the first commander of Northern Command,
3:27:35 > 3:27:36and that meant, essentially,
3:27:36 > 3:27:40that McGuinness and Adams took over the military campaign.
3:27:40 > 3:27:43So the northerners were running it.
3:27:43 > 3:27:46Under this strengthened northern leadership,
3:27:46 > 3:27:48the long war had begun.
3:27:49 > 3:27:52And it was ruthless in its prosecution.
3:27:52 > 3:27:54The new leadership set down a blueprint
3:27:54 > 3:27:57that was followed for the next two decades -
3:27:57 > 3:28:00a grinding campaign of isolated attacks,
3:28:00 > 3:28:04punctuated by what Republicans called "spectaculars",
3:28:04 > 3:28:08such as when the IRA took revenge on the Parachute Regiment
3:28:08 > 3:28:13for Bloody Sunday and reached inside the Royal Family in a single day.
3:28:15 > 3:28:17- NEWS REPORT:- At 11.30 this morning,
3:28:17 > 3:28:20Lord Mountbatten's family had set off from the jetty.
3:28:20 > 3:28:2316 minutes later, it happened.
3:28:23 > 3:28:26We just heard a very loud bang
3:28:26 > 3:28:31and we were informed that Lord Mountbatten's boat had exploded.
3:28:31 > 3:28:36That was planned by the IRA shortly after Martin McGuinness took over
3:28:36 > 3:28:40as chief of staff of the IRA in 1978. He had sanctioned it.
3:28:41 > 3:28:43The IRA also struck at Warrenpoint,
3:28:43 > 3:28:46killing 18 members of the Parachute Regiment.
3:28:48 > 3:28:49Police who have been to the scene
3:28:49 > 3:28:52say they have never seen such carnage
3:28:52 > 3:28:54in all the Troubles in Northern Ireland.
3:28:54 > 3:28:57This would have been a very complex plan,
3:28:57 > 3:29:01for two operations to take place on the same day.
3:29:01 > 3:29:04The key thing was the Parachute Regiment,
3:29:04 > 3:29:08because of what they had done in Derry in 1972.
3:29:08 > 3:29:10The graffiti went up immediately,
3:29:10 > 3:29:13that night - "13 dead but not forgotten.
3:29:13 > 3:29:15"We got 18 and Mountbatten."
3:29:15 > 3:29:18The devastating double attack was a mark
3:29:18 > 3:29:20of the IRA's new lethal capacity
3:29:20 > 3:29:22under Martin McGuinness's leadership.
3:29:22 > 3:29:27It made Martin McGuinness one of Northern Ireland's most wanted men.
3:29:30 > 3:29:34One of those hunting him was a young Catholic RUC officer
3:29:34 > 3:29:35named Peter Sheridan.
3:29:37 > 3:29:39For some police officers he was a hate figure,
3:29:39 > 3:29:42for some police officers he an object of fear,
3:29:42 > 3:29:46and for many of us, he was treated with deep suspicion.
3:29:46 > 3:29:48When I came to Derry first of all in '78,
3:29:48 > 3:29:51he would have been the number one person
3:29:51 > 3:29:54that people would have been on the lookout for in the police.
3:29:54 > 3:29:56As a young sergeant in Londonderry,
3:29:56 > 3:30:00Peter Sheridan was trying to introduce community policing.
3:30:00 > 3:30:02Two or three years ago, people wouldn't have expected to see
3:30:02 > 3:30:05police out walking on the street again.
3:30:05 > 3:30:07It's a gradual improvement that we have to make.
3:30:07 > 3:30:09We can't just decide overnight
3:30:09 > 3:30:11that we're going to go out today and two policemen
3:30:11 > 3:30:14are going to walk about again, like they did in the early '60s.
3:30:14 > 3:30:17Meanwhile, the IRA was trying to kill him.
3:30:17 > 3:30:21You must have lived under constant threat yourself?
3:30:21 > 3:30:25Yes, I did. Almost every day in the city there was some incident.
3:30:25 > 3:30:27For example, at Magee College,
3:30:27 > 3:30:31I was the first on the scene of the shooting of a prison lecturer.
3:30:31 > 3:30:36The IRA shot lecturer Leslie Jarvis because he taught in prison,
3:30:36 > 3:30:40but they also left a booby-trap for police responding to the attack.
3:30:43 > 3:30:46I arrived at this car, where he was shot dead.
3:30:46 > 3:30:49I got into the car and felt his pulse, and he was dead.
3:30:49 > 3:30:52I remembered seeing his briefcase in the back of the car.
3:30:52 > 3:30:55So I cordoned off the area and called the detectives,
3:30:55 > 3:30:58walked over to detectives to explain the set-up.
3:30:58 > 3:31:01I literally walked away and the bomb exploded,
3:31:01 > 3:31:03which was his briefcase had been replaced.
3:31:05 > 3:31:07The two officers were killed,
3:31:07 > 3:31:10and I was literally 20 feet from them.
3:31:10 > 3:31:12A biography of Martin McGuinness later claimed
3:31:12 > 3:31:15he watched the attack unfold.
3:31:15 > 3:31:17They wanted to kill most police officers,
3:31:17 > 3:31:21but if you were Catholic in the police, you were a bigger target.
3:31:21 > 3:31:23If you were senior, you were a bigger target.
3:31:23 > 3:31:26The former Assistant Chief Constable now heads
3:31:26 > 3:31:29Northern Ireland's leading reconciliation charity,
3:31:29 > 3:31:32and worked closely with Martin McGuinness, the politician,
3:31:32 > 3:31:34and grew to like him...
3:31:37 > 3:31:41..despite the fact Martin McGuinness had previously wanted him dead.
3:31:44 > 3:31:46Given that the IRA tried to kill you,
3:31:46 > 3:31:49and given that Martin McGuinness was such a senior figure in the IRA
3:31:49 > 3:31:51at that time, when you join the dots,
3:31:51 > 3:31:54it effectively means that Martin McGuinness tried to kill you.
3:31:54 > 3:31:59Yeah. And I have had probably that not dissimilar conversation
3:31:59 > 3:32:02with him and many others in the Republican movement.
3:32:02 > 3:32:06But Martin McGuinness wasn't just an IRA leader.
3:32:06 > 3:32:09He was also emerging as an elected politician.
3:32:09 > 3:32:11CROWD CHANTS
3:32:15 > 3:32:18With your successes in today's elections,
3:32:18 > 3:32:20is this now not the time to give up the Armalite?
3:32:20 > 3:32:23We have always said that we believe that we can only achieve
3:32:23 > 3:32:25what we are attempting to establish in Ireland,
3:32:25 > 3:32:27a democratic socialist republic,
3:32:27 > 3:32:30through the use of political action and military force.
3:32:30 > 3:32:31That is the Republican position.
3:32:31 > 3:32:34We don't believe that winning elections
3:32:34 > 3:32:36and winning any amount of votes will bring freedom in Ireland.
3:32:36 > 3:32:38At the end of the day,
3:32:38 > 3:32:40it will be the cutting edge of the IRA which will bring freedom.
3:32:40 > 3:32:42Always with Martin McGuinness,
3:32:42 > 3:32:45the military went hand in hand with the political.
3:32:49 > 3:32:52When he was being carried down the Guildhall steps
3:32:52 > 3:32:56the first time he was elected, if you look at the fuss,
3:32:56 > 3:32:58the kind of shock-horror,
3:32:58 > 3:33:00I think he came to realise that the political path
3:33:00 > 3:33:03had as much to offer as the armed path.
3:33:05 > 3:33:07They were determined to say to people,
3:33:07 > 3:33:11"Look, our vote means people support the armed struggle."
3:33:11 > 3:33:14But McGuinness at that stage thought, "If we don't keep going,
3:33:14 > 3:33:17"then we're not going to get anywhere."
3:33:17 > 3:33:21The armed struggle is what gives the Republican movement its weight,
3:33:21 > 3:33:23or, as he said, it's cutting edge.
3:33:23 > 3:33:27There was another key element to what the IRA called its war.
3:33:27 > 3:33:29Propaganda.
3:33:29 > 3:33:33Once again, Martin McGuinness was at the forefront.
3:33:34 > 3:33:37I believe the people will vote for me
3:33:37 > 3:33:40because I have been active, certainly,
3:33:40 > 3:33:42on the Republican side
3:33:42 > 3:33:43against the British.
3:33:43 > 3:33:45I have been totally opposed to their presence
3:33:45 > 3:33:47in my country.
3:33:47 > 3:33:51And I certainly believe and support the aims of the IRA
3:33:51 > 3:33:55in that Ireland can only be freed, that peace can only come,
3:33:55 > 3:33:57and this is what is important.
3:33:57 > 3:34:00At the end of the day, I am a man of peace.
3:34:00 > 3:34:03At other times, he denied his involvement in the IRA.
3:34:03 > 3:34:07Whoever said that I was a member of the IRA?
3:34:07 > 3:34:09Are you saying that I'm a member of the IRA?
3:34:09 > 3:34:11The definitive history of the IRA names you
3:34:11 > 3:34:13as the OC of the Derry Brigade.
3:34:13 > 3:34:15Well, I have never said that I was in the IRA.
3:34:15 > 3:34:19Are you denying that you ran the IRA in Free Derry?
3:34:19 > 3:34:20I am not a member of the IRA.
3:34:25 > 3:34:29In 1985, a BBC documentary called Real Lives,
3:34:29 > 3:34:31due to be screened across the UK,
3:34:31 > 3:34:34examined this man of contradictions,
3:34:34 > 3:34:37placing the Corporation right in the firing line.
3:34:37 > 3:34:41While the IRA wanted to bring down the British Government,
3:34:41 > 3:34:45this half hour of television almost brought down the BBC.
3:34:45 > 3:34:49Margaret Thatcher's Government wanted the programme scrapped.
3:34:49 > 3:34:52The BBC withdrew it, leading to accusations of both censorship
3:34:52 > 3:34:56and propaganda. It was broadcast two months later.
3:34:56 > 3:35:00We had the Real Lives documentary, which was revolutionary.
3:35:00 > 3:35:03The past 15 years have seen many sacrifices.
3:35:03 > 3:35:06In Republican graves throughout Ireland
3:35:06 > 3:35:10lie the remains of Irishmen and women who saw that resistance
3:35:10 > 3:35:13was the only method that Britain understood.
3:35:13 > 3:35:16It actually showed someone who had been frequently called
3:35:16 > 3:35:19a leading IRA man playing with his kids on the beach,
3:35:19 > 3:35:22laughing and talking with his wife.
3:35:22 > 3:35:24Very relaxed, very calm.
3:35:24 > 3:35:27So, it actually showed him as a human being
3:35:27 > 3:35:31and allowed him to discuss what his views and aspirations
3:35:31 > 3:35:32and what his feelings were.
3:35:32 > 3:35:37We believe the only way that Irish people can bring about
3:35:37 > 3:35:40the freedom of their country
3:35:40 > 3:35:43is through the use of armed struggle.
3:35:43 > 3:35:46I wish it could be done in another way.
3:35:46 > 3:35:50If someone could tell me a peaceful way to do it,
3:35:50 > 3:35:53then I would gladly support that. But no-one has yet done that.
3:35:53 > 3:35:57We saw him counterpoised with Gregory Campbell.
3:35:57 > 3:35:59Hello. How are you?
3:35:59 > 3:36:03Nobody had any conception of how controversial it would be,
3:36:03 > 3:36:06that Margaret Thatcher would intervene.
3:36:06 > 3:36:08and it would for a day, I think,
3:36:08 > 3:36:13create a worldwide news strike by BBC journalists.
3:36:13 > 3:36:17I don't think anybody would say I was responsible for that.
3:36:18 > 3:36:20But I had a clear choice.
3:36:20 > 3:36:24It was clear to me what the producers were trying to do,
3:36:24 > 3:36:27and that was to present Martin McGuinness in a particular light.
3:36:27 > 3:36:32So I said, "Well, if they do, I will present the truth about him."
3:36:32 > 3:36:35And perhaps that's what I'm doing now as well.
3:36:37 > 3:36:42In the Protestant community, there is a great concern
3:36:42 > 3:36:45that somebody like Martin McGuinness
3:36:45 > 3:36:49can become almost a cult figure
3:36:49 > 3:36:51in the Republican community,
3:36:51 > 3:36:55can be elected at election after election.
3:36:55 > 3:36:59It was quite interesting because we saw a shot
3:36:59 > 3:37:02of Gregory Campbell cleaning his gun.
3:37:02 > 3:37:04So, it was a neat sort of reversal.
3:37:04 > 3:37:08You were expecting to see Martin McGuinness maybe cleaning his,
3:37:08 > 3:37:09but it wasn't to be.
3:37:12 > 3:37:15What you saw with me was a factual representation
3:37:15 > 3:37:19of the way it was in 1984.
3:37:21 > 3:37:28But I didn't like the correlation of illegal arms
3:37:28 > 3:37:31that were used to kill innocent people
3:37:31 > 3:37:34with the personal protection weapon
3:37:34 > 3:37:36that was being used to defend innocent people.
3:37:36 > 3:37:40I remember the controversy over the parallels which
3:37:40 > 3:37:44the Real Lives programme drew between Martin McGuinness
3:37:44 > 3:37:47on the one hand and Gregory Campbell on the other.
3:37:47 > 3:37:50People on both sides were a bit angry about that.
3:37:50 > 3:37:54Gregory's people were angry about their man being compared to
3:37:54 > 3:37:56and IRA activist,
3:37:56 > 3:37:59and Republicans were angry at their leader
3:37:59 > 3:38:03being compared to somebody who was perceived as a sectarian bigot.
3:38:03 > 3:38:07Were there any similarities between you and Martin McGuinness?
3:38:09 > 3:38:13Well, I suppose we were round about the same age,
3:38:13 > 3:38:15and we breathed the same air.
3:38:18 > 3:38:21But it wasn't all about PR and publicity.
3:38:21 > 3:38:24Even in the later stages of the IRA campaign,
3:38:24 > 3:38:26and even in Martin McGuinness's home city,
3:38:26 > 3:38:30violence towards those considered to be informers and collaborators
3:38:30 > 3:38:32was extreme.
3:38:32 > 3:38:36The IRA decided to use civilians as human bombs.
3:38:41 > 3:38:45The place and times that belonged to Martin McGuinness
3:38:45 > 3:38:47also belonged to Kathleen Gillespie.
3:38:50 > 3:38:51She grew up in Derry
3:38:51 > 3:38:54and married her husband Patsy in the same church
3:38:54 > 3:38:57where Martin McGuinness's funeral was held last week.
3:39:01 > 3:39:03I don't know if it was love at first sight,
3:39:03 > 3:39:06but I fancied him when I was 16.
3:39:07 > 3:39:11We got engaged when I was 17
3:39:11 > 3:39:14and we got married when I was 20.
3:39:14 > 3:39:16Like many in Derry in the early '70s,
3:39:16 > 3:39:20Patsy Gillespie found it hard to get work.
3:39:20 > 3:39:23He started cooking in an Army base, a risky job in a city
3:39:23 > 3:39:27where the IRA was such a heavy presence.
3:39:31 > 3:39:33It wasn't a sensible move.
3:39:33 > 3:39:35But Patsy didn't want to be on the dole.
3:39:37 > 3:39:41He needed a job, wanted to look after his family.
3:39:41 > 3:39:45Patsy's job made him what the IRA called a legitimate target.
3:39:45 > 3:39:48One night in October 1990,
3:39:48 > 3:39:51masked gunmen took over the family home.
3:39:51 > 3:39:54They took Patsy away at midnight,
3:39:54 > 3:39:57they led him into the living room to say goodbye to us.
3:39:57 > 3:39:59- NEWS REPORT:- The terrorists told Mrs Gillespie
3:39:59 > 3:40:01that no-one would be harmed
3:40:01 > 3:40:03and her husband would be back in half an hour.
3:40:03 > 3:40:05He put his arms round us and said, "Don't worry, girl.
3:40:05 > 3:40:08"Everything will be all right, I will be home soon."
3:40:08 > 3:40:11And that was the last time I saw him.
3:40:11 > 3:40:14Patsy Gillespie was one of three men the IRA forced
3:40:14 > 3:40:17to drive car bombs that night.
3:40:17 > 3:40:20In Newry and Omagh, the drivers managed to escape
3:40:20 > 3:40:24before the bombs went off, but Patsy Gillespie had no chance
3:40:24 > 3:40:27to get away from the massive bomb he drove.
3:40:27 > 3:40:33The van contained, to my knowledge, 1,200lb of explosives,
3:40:33 > 3:40:36and Patsy was chained to the van.
3:40:36 > 3:40:38So, he must've known then,
3:40:38 > 3:40:42"I'm chained. I'm not going to get out of here."
3:40:42 > 3:40:45- NEWS REPORT:- A senior security source said last night's bombings
3:40:45 > 3:40:48reveal an obscene new twist.
3:40:48 > 3:40:50He said they're using human bombs.
3:40:50 > 3:40:56He drove into the Army checkpoint at Coshquin
3:40:56 > 3:40:59and immediately shouted a warning,
3:40:59 > 3:41:01"I'm loaded, I'm loaded, get away! Get away!
3:41:01 > 3:41:03"I'm loaded."
3:41:03 > 3:41:07Patsy Gillespie and five soldiers were killed in the blast.
3:41:07 > 3:41:10Kathleen heard the bomb go off from her home.
3:41:10 > 3:41:14We sort of knew all day that Patsy was dead,
3:41:14 > 3:41:17but the confirmation didn't come
3:41:17 > 3:41:21because...there was nothing to identify him.
3:41:23 > 3:41:24There was only...
3:41:24 > 3:41:28The police were finding wee bits of body parts and bits of flesh,
3:41:28 > 3:41:34and Patsy was identified by a piece of flesh
3:41:34 > 3:41:39which was found attached to part of a grey zip
3:41:39 > 3:41:42of the cardigan he was wearing when they took him away.
3:41:45 > 3:41:47Did you know that at the time?
3:41:47 > 3:41:52No. Patsy's remains were brought home from the hospital
3:41:52 > 3:41:55on the Friday,
3:41:55 > 3:41:58and I still thought that they were
3:41:58 > 3:42:01taking me to identify the body.
3:42:01 > 3:42:05Because I said to the detectives when we went to the mortuary
3:42:05 > 3:42:07at Altnagelvin,
3:42:07 > 3:42:11"Are we going in to identify the body now?"
3:42:12 > 3:42:17And he said, "The coffin's closed, Kathleen."
3:42:20 > 3:42:26That's when I thought, "Something's not right here."
3:42:29 > 3:42:34When you look at that and compare it to the 21st century
3:42:34 > 3:42:38and Isis, that is probably the closest that they came
3:42:38 > 3:42:40to being the forerunner to Isis.
3:42:42 > 3:42:46You recall the horror which went through the area,
3:42:46 > 3:42:50including among people who were not at all unsympathetic
3:42:50 > 3:42:52to the armed struggle.
3:42:52 > 3:42:53I remember the day after,
3:42:53 > 3:42:56seeing a senior member of the Provisional IRA,
3:42:56 > 3:42:58in Rossville Street,
3:42:58 > 3:43:01and crossing the street to say to him and I said,
3:43:01 > 3:43:05"That was a really lousy action last night."
3:43:05 > 3:43:09He replied, "Eamonn, that was a perfect military operation."
3:43:11 > 3:43:13In 2013, at the Oxford Union,
3:43:13 > 3:43:17Martin McGuinness was challenged about Patsy Gillespie's death
3:43:17 > 3:43:21by Victor Barker whose 12-year-old son was killed in the Omagh bomb.
3:43:24 > 3:43:26Patsy Gillespie's widow,
3:43:26 > 3:43:27who's alive today,
3:43:27 > 3:43:29knows exactly what happened
3:43:29 > 3:43:32and who ordered the death of her husband.
3:43:32 > 3:43:36Everybody in this room would have more respect for you, Martin,
3:43:36 > 3:43:39if you accepted your position
3:43:39 > 3:43:42and you started telling the truth.
3:43:42 > 3:43:44APPLAUSE
3:43:47 > 3:43:49I don't know who was involved in the bomb explosion
3:43:49 > 3:43:52which took the life of Patsy Gillespie.
3:43:52 > 3:43:54Some people might think I do, but I don't.
3:43:54 > 3:43:57When you say you don't know, for example, in Patsy Gillespie's case,
3:43:57 > 3:44:00- you could find out. - I'm in government.
3:44:00 > 3:44:05The job of finding out is the responsibility of the police.
3:44:05 > 3:44:09By the stage of the human bombs in 1990,
3:44:09 > 3:44:11operations like that would have
3:44:11 > 3:44:14needed the approval of the Northern Command leadership,
3:44:14 > 3:44:16and he was OC of the Northern Command.
3:44:16 > 3:44:19So he would have known all about it and given the go-ahead.
3:44:19 > 3:44:22A good few years ago,
3:44:22 > 3:44:26I had to try and come to terms
3:44:26 > 3:44:31with the fact that all the truths will never be told.
3:44:31 > 3:44:34There are so many secrets still,
3:44:34 > 3:44:36and Martin McGuinness has taken
3:44:36 > 3:44:39a lot of secrets to the grave with him,
3:44:39 > 3:44:41which can never be revealed.
3:44:43 > 3:44:46This is where Patsy Gillespie died.
3:44:48 > 3:44:50Time and the peace process have removed
3:44:50 > 3:44:53more of the Army checkpoint than the bomb did.
3:44:55 > 3:45:00It's very strange, because I feel closer to Patsy at Coshquin
3:45:00 > 3:45:03than I do actually at his grave.
3:45:03 > 3:45:07To me, Coshquin is the last place where Patsy was complete.
3:45:10 > 3:45:17It's like part of his presence is still around there somewhere.
3:45:20 > 3:45:25I do send my condolences to Martin McGuinness's wife
3:45:25 > 3:45:30but, at the same time, I'm very envious of her and her family
3:45:30 > 3:45:37because they got to sit beside him while he died, and comfort him.
3:45:37 > 3:45:40And it was a comfort for them. And I was robbed of that.
3:45:45 > 3:45:48It's hard to reconcile Martin McGuinness
3:45:48 > 3:45:51the IRA leader who sanctioned such horror
3:45:51 > 3:45:53with Martin McGuinness the politician
3:45:53 > 3:45:57who did so much in recent years to make this place work.
3:45:57 > 3:46:00Within months of Patsy Gillespie's murder,
3:46:00 > 3:46:03he was holding secret peace talks with the British Government,
3:46:03 > 3:46:06which ultimately ended the IRA's campaign.
3:46:06 > 3:46:10For some reason, he'd decided the violence had to stop.
3:46:10 > 3:46:13And it's important to try and understand why.
3:46:13 > 3:46:15Was this simply a new tactic
3:46:15 > 3:46:19or had Martin McGuinness seen the error of his ways?
3:46:19 > 3:46:22Martin McGuinness's life, a very public life,
3:46:22 > 3:46:24is that of a journey.
3:46:24 > 3:46:27If we read in the Scriptures
3:46:27 > 3:46:31about Saul of Tarsus making a remarkable journey,
3:46:31 > 3:46:34being the chief of sinners and becoming
3:46:34 > 3:46:36God's and Christ's chief witness,
3:46:36 > 3:46:40and Martin McGuinness, while it's not a theological journey,
3:46:40 > 3:46:45it has been a life journey where he has been the chief sinner
3:46:45 > 3:46:48and has become the person who has become one of the
3:46:48 > 3:46:50chief peacemakers in Northern Ireland.
3:46:53 > 3:46:56Religion may have played its part, but even in Belfast's
3:46:56 > 3:46:59Clonard Monastery, where key talks were held,
3:46:59 > 3:47:03the sales pitch for peace was grounded in practical politics.
3:47:06 > 3:47:08Through working with Father Alec Reid
3:47:08 > 3:47:10and the peace ministry
3:47:10 > 3:47:13that ran from Clonard Monastery,
3:47:13 > 3:47:16and I knew of the work that was
3:47:16 > 3:47:20being done to try and persuade the IRA
3:47:20 > 3:47:22towards the democratic process,
3:47:22 > 3:47:26to use politics and to leave behind the gun,
3:47:26 > 3:47:29I became aware of what a very important figure he was,
3:47:29 > 3:47:33also of what a very, very important figure Gerry Adams was
3:47:33 > 3:47:38in terms of bringing that paramilitary constituency with them,
3:47:38 > 3:47:41persuading them to what Father Alec always used to call
3:47:41 > 3:47:45the alternative solution, the alternative strategy.
3:47:47 > 3:47:51Violence and the politics for Republicans were always
3:47:51 > 3:47:52inextricably linked.
3:47:52 > 3:47:55The balance was what changed.
3:47:55 > 3:47:58Eventually it was seen that violence was counter-productive
3:47:58 > 3:48:01for Republicans and that they could achieve more by politics.
3:48:01 > 3:48:05Martin McGuinness brought plenty of fanaticism to the violent era
3:48:05 > 3:48:09of the Provisional IRA, and he brought the same fanaticism
3:48:09 > 3:48:10into the peace process.
3:48:13 > 3:48:16And if peace was a tactical move by Republicans,
3:48:16 > 3:48:20was that because the IRA had reached stalemate with the British
3:48:20 > 3:48:22or even faced defeat?
3:48:32 > 3:48:36Once Martin McGuinness decided that the IRA's armed struggle was
3:48:36 > 3:48:38not yielding what he had hoped and thought it would achieve,
3:48:38 > 3:48:40he was prepared to be flexible
3:48:40 > 3:48:42in terms of operating on a different basis.
3:48:42 > 3:48:45The fact that it took so long to get serious communication about
3:48:45 > 3:48:49the sort of ending of the conflict was partly because it needed
3:48:49 > 3:48:51to get to the point where the IRA thought,
3:48:51 > 3:48:53"We do need to bring something to an end or at least to change
3:48:53 > 3:48:56"our strategy in pursuing our Republican goals."
3:48:59 > 3:49:00Did a penny drop?
3:49:00 > 3:49:03Was there a shaft of light from heaven?
3:49:03 > 3:49:06Was there a Damascus road moment in Martin McGuinness's life?
3:49:06 > 3:49:08I tend not to think so.
3:49:08 > 3:49:10I think it was a gradual process,
3:49:10 > 3:49:14a realisation on his part and on other people's part,
3:49:14 > 3:49:18and of course they would probably never concede or admit this,
3:49:18 > 3:49:20that their war was unwinnable,
3:49:20 > 3:49:22that the British were actually on top of them.
3:49:25 > 3:49:28How do you then rationalise where Martin McGuinness got to?
3:49:28 > 3:49:31People can change. There can be a change of heart in people.
3:49:31 > 3:49:34And I actually think that they're entitled to have that change
3:49:34 > 3:49:37and entitled to be encouraged in that change.
3:49:37 > 3:49:40And I think most people would recognise that that's what
3:49:40 > 3:49:43you saw in Martin McGuinness.
3:49:43 > 3:49:47Change of heart, or simply change of head and tactics?
3:49:47 > 3:49:50It's hard to overstate how big a stretch it was for
3:49:50 > 3:49:54a Republican leader like Martin McGuinness to come here,
3:49:54 > 3:49:58the seat of Unionism on the hill, and take office.
3:49:58 > 3:50:02I nominate Martin McGuinness as Minister for Education.
3:50:02 > 3:50:04HISSING
3:50:04 > 3:50:06Shame.
3:50:06 > 3:50:08Will Mr Martin McGuinness confirm that
3:50:08 > 3:50:10- he is willing to take up office? - HISSING CONTINUES
3:50:10 > 3:50:13Order! Order!
3:50:13 > 3:50:17What's clear is that he took to it with born-again zeal.
3:50:17 > 3:50:21Good to see you. How are you doing? Thank you very much.
3:50:21 > 3:50:24The cameras were out to capture the new Education Minister's
3:50:24 > 3:50:28first day at the department's headquarters in Rathgael.
3:50:28 > 3:50:32- THEY CHANT:- McGuinness out. Went do we want it?- Now.
3:50:32 > 3:50:34- What do we want?- McGuinness out.
3:50:34 > 3:50:35- When do we want it?- Now.
3:50:35 > 3:50:39And they also captured the angry protests at Queen's Students' Union.
3:50:46 > 3:50:50That looks far better than I do. My curly hair, what's left of it.
3:50:50 > 3:50:52Hello.
3:50:52 > 3:50:55A younger generation appeared more welcoming.
3:50:55 > 3:50:58# That's when your dreams will all come true. #
3:50:58 > 3:51:01- Brilliant.- Brilliant. Absolutely first class.
3:51:01 > 3:51:04Well done, everybody.
3:51:04 > 3:51:07Having taken the huge step of entering Stormont,
3:51:07 > 3:51:10Martin McGuinness seemed genuinely upset
3:51:10 > 3:51:14when it appeared likely to fall over decommissioning.
3:51:15 > 3:51:19It's been absolutely gut-wrenching for me,
3:51:19 > 3:51:24as an Irish Republican, to come to this building, Stormont,
3:51:24 > 3:51:27and be a minister in a Northern Executive.
3:51:29 > 3:51:32But was he being seduced by the institutions?
3:51:37 > 3:51:42It was surprising just how far he would travel to keep Stormont alive.
3:51:42 > 3:51:45It certainly led him into some astonishing relationships.
3:51:47 > 3:51:49It was a summer's evening
3:51:49 > 3:51:52and I turned up on my motorbike and
3:51:52 > 3:51:54I wear a balaclava on my motorbike,
3:51:54 > 3:51:57and I took my helmet off and McGuinness was standing there
3:51:57 > 3:51:59and I took the balaclava off and I said,
3:51:59 > 3:52:02"I'm the only one wearing a balaclava here."
3:52:02 > 3:52:04And that broke the ice.
3:52:04 > 3:52:07Because I think they could've taken that one of two ways.
3:52:07 > 3:52:09"Is he deliberately trying to rub us the wrong way
3:52:09 > 3:52:11"or was that actually quite funny?"
3:52:11 > 3:52:14But serious business needed to be done.
3:52:14 > 3:52:18Painful choices for Sinn Fein and the IRA.
3:52:18 > 3:52:22Partnership government with the DUP meant Republican support
3:52:22 > 3:52:24for policing, decommissioning
3:52:24 > 3:52:27and the winding up of the IRA.
3:52:27 > 3:52:31Martin McGuinness, who did so much to build the IRA,
3:52:31 > 3:52:34was now charged with taking it apart.
3:52:34 > 3:52:38Martin was the guy who was going to have to sell it to the troops,
3:52:38 > 3:52:40and it was the things that he said,
3:52:40 > 3:52:43you knew he was the guy that was going into the caves
3:52:43 > 3:52:45to sell the message.
3:52:45 > 3:52:48Martin McGuinness brought Sinn Fein over the Rubicon that they've
3:52:48 > 3:52:51never, ever been able to go back on.
3:52:51 > 3:52:55And that was swearing support and giving legitimacy
3:52:55 > 3:52:58to the Crown forces of the British state in Ireland.
3:52:58 > 3:53:01And once a Republican does that in the cold light of day, there's
3:53:01 > 3:53:02no going back for them.
3:53:02 > 3:53:05And their weapons are no longer the weapons of murder,
3:53:05 > 3:53:08their weapons have to be the weapons of politics.
3:53:10 > 3:53:14The Republican romance with Stormont was now personified
3:53:14 > 3:53:16in a most unlikely couple.
3:53:24 > 3:53:28People that never spoke to one another before now can even chuckle.
3:53:28 > 3:53:31We've been described as the Chuckle Brothers back home
3:53:31 > 3:53:35by people who thought that would've demeaned us in the beginning.
3:53:35 > 3:53:38It turned against them in the end and we're hoping we can
3:53:38 > 3:53:40chuckle our way through 2008.
3:53:40 > 3:53:43He knows that I can stand the pace
3:53:43 > 3:53:46and he complains I work him too hard.
3:53:46 > 3:53:51He and I have a very positive approach, and it's working.
3:53:51 > 3:53:53I haven't hit him yet
3:53:53 > 3:53:55and he hasn't hit me yet.
3:53:55 > 3:53:57Not an inch and no surrender.
3:53:59 > 3:54:02My father had charisma in bucket-loads,
3:54:02 > 3:54:05and Martin McGuinness had the X factor.
3:54:05 > 3:54:11They had that ability to look people directly in the eye,
3:54:11 > 3:54:13talk to them man to man,
3:54:13 > 3:54:19person to person, and empathise and sympathise and engage with them.
3:54:19 > 3:54:25And all of a sudden here we were on a settee, a small settee,
3:54:25 > 3:54:28that obviously had good springs.
3:54:28 > 3:54:30We were in the midst of battles.
3:54:30 > 3:54:32That's right. Campaigning.
3:54:32 > 3:54:35We're only too glad he'd bring this to both of you...
3:54:37 > 3:54:41And, you know, it was amazing.
3:54:41 > 3:54:46But funny, you know, I remember that morning talking Paisley
3:54:46 > 3:54:50and he believed
3:54:50 > 3:54:55that this Martin McGuinness guy had transformed,
3:54:55 > 3:55:00and Martin McGuinness believed that Ian Paisley had transformed.
3:55:02 > 3:55:06I had developed a very good working relationship with Martin McGuinness.
3:55:06 > 3:55:10He was a crucial figure in the negotiations
3:55:10 > 3:55:16to get self-government in which he played a leading role
3:55:16 > 3:55:19and which the old enemies were brought together
3:55:19 > 3:55:22to get that agreed and get it working properly
3:55:22 > 3:55:26and the unlikely alliance with Ian Paisley.
3:55:26 > 3:55:29The Chuckle Brothers, was, I think,
3:55:29 > 3:55:33indicative of a warm personality on both sides.
3:55:35 > 3:55:39Of course the DUP-Sinn Fein marriage was far from perfect,
3:55:39 > 3:55:42though it was surprisingly solid,
3:55:42 > 3:55:45even when Ian Paisley was replaced by Peter Robinson.
3:55:45 > 3:55:47Through thick and thin,
3:55:47 > 3:55:49Martin McGuinness proved his fidelity.
3:55:49 > 3:55:53And when a challenge came from former Republican comrades
3:55:53 > 3:55:57he made it abundantly clear where his loyalties now lay.
3:56:01 > 3:56:04The shooting happened just before 10 o'clock last night.
3:56:04 > 3:56:06The soldiers from 38 Engineer Regiment
3:56:06 > 3:56:08were hours from deployment to Afghanistan.
3:56:08 > 3:56:11It's understood they'd ordered the pizzas
3:56:11 > 3:56:13and were shot as they took delivery of them.
3:56:13 > 3:56:16Two days after the Massereene Barracks shooting,
3:56:16 > 3:56:20PSNI officer Stephen Carroll was shot dead in Craigavon.
3:56:20 > 3:56:24This was the first killing of a police officer in Northern Ireland
3:56:24 > 3:56:27since the Good Friday Agreement.
3:56:27 > 3:56:30Martin McGuinness's condemnation proved a watershed.
3:56:31 > 3:56:35These people, they are traitors to the island of Ireland.
3:56:35 > 3:56:39They have betrayed the political desires,
3:56:39 > 3:56:42hopes and aspirations of all the people who live in this island
3:56:42 > 3:56:46and they don't deserve to be supported by anyone.
3:56:46 > 3:56:50It would have been a difficult message for him to sell in
3:56:50 > 3:56:53his own community, even though it was dissidents.
3:56:53 > 3:56:55I know, around his own house,
3:56:55 > 3:56:57there were some paint bombs thrown at his house,
3:56:57 > 3:56:59so it didn't go unnoticed.
3:56:59 > 3:57:01But not everybody had signed up to the extent that
3:57:01 > 3:57:04Martin McGuinness had signed up to this.
3:57:04 > 3:57:05The day that he did that,
3:57:05 > 3:57:09he was signalling very, very strongly to Republicans
3:57:09 > 3:57:11that he had crossed the Rubicon.
3:57:11 > 3:57:13That there's no going back.
3:57:13 > 3:57:16He knew, ideologically, the day that he took his oath as a minister,
3:57:16 > 3:57:20an oath that included support for the police, that was it.
3:57:20 > 3:57:25His language that day was absolutely incredible.
3:57:25 > 3:57:28It had an effect all over the island of Ireland.
3:57:28 > 3:57:32I think that resounded and was hugely brave.
3:57:32 > 3:57:35When you say he's brave, do you mean politically brave
3:57:35 > 3:57:37or are we talking about threats to his life?
3:57:37 > 3:57:39Oh, threats to his life.
3:57:39 > 3:57:44I mean, Martin, there was a threat to Martin's life for long periods.
3:57:44 > 3:57:46I know that.
3:57:51 > 3:57:55It seemed there were no lengths to which Martin McGuinness wouldn't go.
3:57:55 > 3:57:58But it wasn't always his call alone.
3:57:59 > 3:58:02With the historic state visit of the Queen to the Republic,
3:58:02 > 3:58:06Sinn Fein was invited to Dublin Castle.
3:58:06 > 3:58:09But meeting the Queen of England remained, at that time,
3:58:09 > 3:58:10a step too far.
3:58:11 > 3:58:16My hope had been that when she came to Dublin, to Dublin Castle,
3:58:16 > 3:58:18that Sinn Fein would attend.
3:58:18 > 3:58:21- That was my hope. - They boycotted that.
3:58:21 > 3:58:23Was that a mistake, from their point of view?
3:58:23 > 3:58:25Oh, absolutely it was a mistake
3:58:25 > 3:58:26and they knew very quickly that it was a mistake.
3:58:26 > 3:58:28SHE SPEAKS IN GAELIC
3:58:33 > 3:58:34APPLAUSE
3:58:39 > 3:58:43It was a mistake that Martin McGuinness rectified in Belfast.
3:58:49 > 3:58:52If Martin made up his mind that he was going to do something,
3:58:52 > 3:58:54he did it.
3:58:54 > 3:58:58- Do you think he was key in that? - Totally. Totally. No doubt about it.
3:58:58 > 3:59:00Totally. Lock, stock and barrel.
3:59:00 > 3:59:03That was Martin McGuinness
3:59:03 > 3:59:07making the decision that he was going to carry this.
3:59:07 > 3:59:12- I'm still a Republican.- Martin, how was it to meet the Queen?- Very nice.
3:59:12 > 3:59:15There came a sense of respect between the two people.
3:59:15 > 3:59:17In some ways, I think Martin McGuinness
3:59:17 > 3:59:20treated the Queen like the way he would have treated his mother.
3:59:20 > 3:59:21They were the same age bracket.
3:59:21 > 3:59:24There was almost that deference to somebody who was an older person
3:59:24 > 3:59:27and it was incredibly brave of the Queen
3:59:27 > 3:59:30to step forward to reach out her hand.
3:59:30 > 3:59:33But it was equally courageous of Martin McGuinness
3:59:33 > 3:59:35in his own constituency to take her hand.
3:59:35 > 3:59:40In shaking the hand of Queen Elizabeth, I'm extending the hand of
3:59:40 > 3:59:45peace and reconciliation to all of my Unionist brothers and sisters.
3:59:45 > 3:59:47He showed a lot of courage in doing that,
3:59:47 > 3:59:50because there would have been Republicans...
3:59:50 > 3:59:54There were Republicans who sniped at him for meeting the Queen.
3:59:55 > 4:00:00He showed leadership as opposed to followership.
4:00:00 > 4:00:03It wasn't just one meeting with the Queen.
4:00:03 > 4:00:05Deputy First Minister, Your Majesty.
4:00:05 > 4:00:08- Ah, good evening. - Hello. Are you well?
4:00:08 > 4:00:12- Thank you very much, I'm still alive!- Nice to see you again.
4:00:12 > 4:00:15But the past is not easily forgotten.
4:00:15 > 4:00:20Martin McGuinness never apologised for past actions of the IRA.
4:00:20 > 4:00:25And that always had the potential to threaten the process.
4:00:25 > 4:00:30When Arlene Foster took charge as First Minister, she told Spotlight
4:00:30 > 4:00:33about the difficulties she experienced with Martin McGuinness
4:00:33 > 4:00:37because of his graveside oration at the IRA funeral
4:00:37 > 4:00:40of the man she believes tried to kill her father.
4:00:44 > 4:00:47If you talk to Martin McGuinness now, he will say,
4:00:47 > 4:00:49and I heard him say it just recently,
4:00:49 > 4:00:51that Unionists aren't the enemy,
4:00:51 > 4:00:54the enemy is poverty, the enemy is unemployment,
4:00:54 > 4:00:55the enemy is this, that and the other.
4:00:55 > 4:00:58That's fine but it doesn't take away from the fact
4:00:58 > 4:01:02that he thought it appropriate to speak at Seamus McElwaine's funeral.
4:01:02 > 4:01:07A man who had been responsible for murdering
4:01:07 > 4:01:10many people in County Fermanagh.
4:01:12 > 4:01:16In one of his final interviews, Martin McGuinness was asked
4:01:16 > 4:01:19if he had regrets about endorsing the use of violence.
4:01:22 > 4:01:25I don't regret any of that.
4:01:25 > 4:01:29But I think that people can judge all of that, and the people
4:01:29 > 4:01:32who wrote about these matters were never in the city,
4:01:32 > 4:01:36they don't understand what was happening in the city at the time.
4:01:36 > 4:01:39I can understand people now saying,
4:01:39 > 4:01:43"Well, the Martin McGuinness of the early 1970s and '80s and '90s,
4:01:43 > 4:01:47"you have to look at him in that context of that time,
4:01:47 > 4:01:51"whatever false justification he might have been used
4:01:51 > 4:01:53"for being involved in the IRA."
4:01:53 > 4:01:58If you look at the latter Martin McGuinness, in latter days,
4:01:58 > 4:02:02even in the final couple of months of his life,
4:02:02 > 4:02:05he had resigned as Deputy First Minister,
4:02:05 > 4:02:09the peace process was well embedded, over 20 years on,
4:02:09 > 4:02:11he was obviously gravely ill,
4:02:11 > 4:02:15everyone could see he was gravely ill and he knew it.
4:02:15 > 4:02:19The Grim Reaper was almost at the door, and the Martin McGuinness
4:02:19 > 4:02:23of the latter days, the resigned Martin McGuinness,
4:02:23 > 4:02:27the peacemaker Martin McGuinness said, "I regret none of it."
4:02:27 > 4:02:29That summed the man up for me.
4:02:29 > 4:02:32But Martin McGuinness did stretch Republicans
4:02:32 > 4:02:34and made some big gestures.
4:02:34 > 4:02:38But his supporters didn't feel the DUP responded in kind.
4:02:38 > 4:02:41Now battling serious illness,
4:02:41 > 4:02:47scandals like the Renewable Heating Incentive raised serious tensions.
4:02:47 > 4:02:50A DUP decision to scrap an Irish language scheme
4:02:50 > 4:02:53added to a sense of crisis.
4:02:53 > 4:02:57The frail and dying Martin McGuinness tried a strategy
4:02:57 > 4:03:01that had worked before, but his power was slipping away.
4:03:03 > 4:03:05I phoned Arlene Foster, I said to her,
4:03:05 > 4:03:09"Arlene, what I'm asking for is your cooperation.
4:03:09 > 4:03:12"Stand aside for four or five weeks."
4:03:12 > 4:03:17I provided a way out for Arlene Foster, and she refused to take it.
4:03:17 > 4:03:19Why did Martin McGuinness ultimately resign?
4:03:21 > 4:03:25Ultimately, the reason McGuinness resigned was the Nationalist and
4:03:25 > 4:03:30Republican base had had enough of this sense that the DUP were
4:03:30 > 4:03:33essentially setting the agenda.
4:03:33 > 4:03:37McGuinness was able to counter that to some degree,
4:03:37 > 4:03:39but what happened over the unfolding RHI scandal
4:03:39 > 4:03:42and the arrogant way that the DUP were seen
4:03:42 > 4:03:45to be dismissing Sinn Fein concerns
4:03:45 > 4:03:48I think really forced Martin McGuinness's hand
4:03:48 > 4:03:52in a way that he was left with no other choice than to resign.
4:03:55 > 4:03:57We in Sinn Fein will not tolerate
4:03:57 > 4:04:00the arrogance of Arlene Foster and the DUP.
4:04:02 > 4:04:08Sinn Fein wants equality and respect for everyone.
4:04:08 > 4:04:12And that's what this process must be about.
4:04:12 > 4:04:15So today I have told Arlene Foster
4:04:15 > 4:04:22that I have tendered my resignation, effective from 5pm today.
4:04:25 > 4:04:30I have no doubt that that was a devastating time for him.
4:04:30 > 4:04:33Personally devastating, because everything that
4:04:33 > 4:04:36he had worked for was not just about building up,
4:04:36 > 4:04:38but sustaining the institutions.
4:04:42 > 4:04:44Just weeks after he resigned,
4:04:44 > 4:04:47Republicans were laying their hero to rest.
4:04:54 > 4:05:01We applaud Martin McGuinness. He was a Republican of the Republic.
4:05:10 > 4:05:14The dual leadership of Adams and McGuinness has been a constant
4:05:14 > 4:05:16at the forefront of the Republican movement
4:05:16 > 4:05:19since the two first met back in 1972,
4:05:19 > 4:05:22when they went to negotiate with the British Government.
4:05:22 > 4:05:26With Martin McGuinness now gone and Gerry Adams solely in charge, what
4:05:26 > 4:05:31many are asking is have Republicans fallen out of love with Stormont?
4:05:31 > 4:05:36Are we entering a kind of long cold war in Northern Ireland politics?
4:05:36 > 4:05:37I think, for Sinn Fein,
4:05:37 > 4:05:39they felt they were making very little progress
4:05:39 > 4:05:41within the institutions,
4:05:41 > 4:05:43so I think the era of Sinn Fein support
4:05:43 > 4:05:45for the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement,
4:05:45 > 4:05:48whilst it's not over, there's no doubt that Sinn Fein have cooled
4:05:48 > 4:05:51on the idea of devolved power-sharing,
4:05:51 > 4:05:52at least in the short term.
4:05:52 > 4:05:56Why is Sinn Fein apparently reluctant
4:05:56 > 4:05:58to go back into Stormont government?
4:05:58 > 4:06:02They know they have just secured their highest ever vote
4:06:02 > 4:06:05in a Northern Ireland election, at a time when, under the
4:06:05 > 4:06:09leadership of Martin McGuinness, really as his final act as leader,
4:06:09 > 4:06:12he pulled the plug on the institutions.
4:06:12 > 4:06:17And by doing so, he tapped into a sentiment that had existed
4:06:17 > 4:06:21within Nationalism that the institutions were not working
4:06:21 > 4:06:26in an even manner to deliver for both Nationalists and Unionism,
4:06:26 > 4:06:29that the pendulum had swung too far in favour of Unionists.
4:06:29 > 4:06:33Having worked so hard to make Stormont function,
4:06:33 > 4:06:35some Republican sources say Martin McGuinness
4:06:35 > 4:06:37would have wanted it to return.
4:06:37 > 4:06:41But Brexit, due to be formally triggered by Theresa May
4:06:41 > 4:06:44tomorrow, has changed the circumstances in a way
4:06:44 > 4:06:47that Gerry Adams seems to relish.
4:06:47 > 4:06:51In a way, then, Brexit is a gift for you, right?
4:06:51 > 4:06:54You campaigned against it, but now that it's happening,
4:06:54 > 4:06:57you're using it to make the case for a united Ireland.
4:06:57 > 4:07:00Yeah, well, you always have to never
4:07:00 > 4:07:03waste a crisis, never waste a difficulty.
4:07:03 > 4:07:07Gerry Adams has said never waste a good crisis.
4:07:07 > 4:07:09Is that what we're now seeing playing out?
4:07:09 > 4:07:11That's right.
4:07:11 > 4:07:13There's absolutely no doubt about that.
4:07:13 > 4:07:16Adams is going to make as much use as he can of this crisis.
4:07:16 > 4:07:18It is a crisis.
4:07:18 > 4:07:22The difference is, 20 years ago, it would have been a security crisis.
4:07:22 > 4:07:24Now it's a political crisis.
4:07:24 > 4:07:27It is a perfect storm for Republicans.
4:07:27 > 4:07:29They have political advantages now
4:07:29 > 4:07:31that they've not seen in a long, long time.
4:07:31 > 4:07:34CHEERING
4:07:34 > 4:07:38They used them to dramatic effect on 2nd March at the election.
4:07:38 > 4:07:41They came very close to overtaking the DUP
4:07:41 > 4:07:44in terms of seats and the popular vote.
4:07:44 > 4:07:46This is the onward march of Sinn Fein.
4:07:46 > 4:07:49I'm not sure it's a march that can be stopped.
4:07:49 > 4:07:51Rather than calming Unionist nerves,
4:07:51 > 4:07:55Sinn Fein is calling for a border poll.
4:07:55 > 4:07:58Brexit, as we have stated on many occasion, will be a
4:07:58 > 4:07:59disaster for the economy and
4:07:59 > 4:08:02it'll be a disaster for the people of Ireland.
4:08:02 > 4:08:05For us in Sinn Fein, that increases the urgency for
4:08:05 > 4:08:08the need for a referendum on Irish unity,
4:08:08 > 4:08:10and that needs to happen as soon as possible.
4:08:10 > 4:08:14A united Ireland has moved up the political agenda.
4:08:14 > 4:08:16CHEERING
4:08:18 > 4:08:21Sinn Fein could easily become the largest party
4:08:21 > 4:08:23within Stormont.
4:08:23 > 4:08:26Sinn Fein will almost certainly enter coalition government
4:08:26 > 4:08:28within the South.
4:08:28 > 4:08:31It's one step further to actually achieve a majority
4:08:31 > 4:08:33for a united Ireland.
4:08:33 > 4:08:35But it's less inconceivable, the prospect of a
4:08:35 > 4:08:38united Ireland, than it was even two years ago.
4:08:38 > 4:08:41Now it appears that it's become much more part of the mainstream
4:08:41 > 4:08:44discourse in the South as well as the North again.
4:08:44 > 4:08:46There is no prospect that a border poll could
4:08:46 > 4:08:49be won and deliver a united Ireland in the short term.
4:08:49 > 4:08:52This is more a period for building towards
4:08:52 > 4:08:54Irish unity.
4:08:56 > 4:09:00But is this change in tactics driven by events, or the
4:09:00 > 4:09:02absence of Martin McGuinness?
4:09:03 > 4:09:07I genuinely believe that Stormont would have collapsed if he had been
4:09:07 > 4:09:11part of the Sinn Fein process up to the end.
4:09:11 > 4:09:13I know they say he was, but I
4:09:13 > 4:09:16think his influence was lacking at that time.
4:09:16 > 4:09:18And I think that the Executive
4:09:18 > 4:09:22wouldn't have collapsed to the same extent that it did.
4:09:23 > 4:09:29I just think that Brexit is going to dominate politics, and therefore I
4:09:29 > 4:09:33think that we need a good few statesmen around the place.
4:09:33 > 4:09:36It would have been nice to have McGuinness around to
4:09:36 > 4:09:38do some of that type of stuff.
4:09:38 > 4:09:41I think there's a challenge here for Republicans.
4:09:41 > 4:09:42Do they want his legacy to live on?
4:09:42 > 4:09:44Or do they want to diminish it?
4:09:44 > 4:09:48And the fact that they don't have a big beast of
4:09:48 > 4:09:52his calibre, and they don't have someone with his interpersonal
4:09:52 > 4:09:56skills in Sinn Fein at the present time means that there is huge danger
4:09:56 > 4:09:59of that relationship not working properly.
4:09:59 > 4:10:02And that relationship has got to be synchronised.
4:10:02 > 4:10:05But others are less convinced that Gerry Adams is doing
4:10:05 > 4:10:08anything different to what Martin McGuinness himself
4:10:08 > 4:10:10would have supported.
4:10:10 > 4:10:13Well, there is a view that he was one of the
4:10:13 > 4:10:16primary advocates of keeping the institutions running.
4:10:16 > 4:10:19I suppose it's one of the ultimate ironies, then,
4:10:19 > 4:10:23that he was the man that brought them down by his resignation.
4:10:24 > 4:10:27I think one of the most significant aspects of
4:10:27 > 4:10:31Martin McGuinness's time as a leading Republican was that he
4:10:31 > 4:10:37forged a remarkable dual leadership alongside Gerry Adams, and that
4:10:37 > 4:10:41brought the Republicanism from the IRA campaign
4:10:41 > 4:10:45to the peace process, and through the peace process,
4:10:45 > 4:10:48political talks, into the devolved era.
4:10:48 > 4:10:53It was striking that at no period of their tenure as dual leaders
4:10:53 > 4:10:56could you have put a cigarette paper between them.
4:10:56 > 4:10:59And that was true to outsiders but also to insiders.
4:10:59 > 4:11:03They were very, very careful to never allow any
4:11:03 > 4:11:07sense that one was disagreeing with the other.
4:11:08 > 4:11:10There were definitely inseparable.
4:11:10 > 4:11:13And it wasn't good guy, bad guy.
4:11:13 > 4:11:17I mean, they were very much on the one page.
4:11:17 > 4:11:19That key partnership is no more.
4:11:19 > 4:11:23It is now Adams alone, raising questions
4:11:23 > 4:11:27and uncertainty for Sinn Fein and the future.
4:11:27 > 4:11:32After nearly a decade of sustained devolved government,
4:11:32 > 4:11:35in which Martin McGuinness played a key role,
4:11:35 > 4:11:39the future of our political institutions remains uncertain.
4:11:41 > 4:11:45Talks have failed, Brexit is coming,
4:11:45 > 4:11:49and Martin McGuinness has left the stage.
4:11:49 > 4:11:55Martin McGuinness's journey was indeed remarkable, from IRA hard man
4:11:55 > 4:12:03to soft peacemaker, shaking hands with the Queen and building a warm
4:12:03 > 4:12:09and very important relationship with the DUP leader, Ian Paisley.
4:12:09 > 4:12:14The problem with Northern Ireland politics today is there are
4:12:14 > 4:12:17insufficient leaders of the stature
4:12:17 > 4:12:20of Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness
4:12:20 > 4:12:24who have the capacity to lead and sometimes tell their followers
4:12:24 > 4:12:28things they don't want to hear, and have the courage to do that.
4:12:28 > 4:12:31It seems to me that we all have to make our minds up now,
4:12:31 > 4:12:34that political failure is not an option,
4:12:34 > 4:12:38that whatever we need to do, and part of that will involve
4:12:38 > 4:12:42getting out of the sectarian bunkers and focusing on the future
4:12:42 > 4:12:45and all the issues that are lying ahead of us -
4:12:45 > 4:12:47the economics of Northern Ireland.
4:12:47 > 4:12:50Given where we are now, with Martin McGuinness having left
4:12:50 > 4:12:53the political stage, with institutions that have
4:12:53 > 4:12:59fallen down, with big movements elsewhere, with Brexit and the
4:12:59 > 4:13:04implications for that, are we entering a more dangerous phase?
4:13:04 > 4:13:07From a distance, it's a worry.
4:13:07 > 4:13:13All I can do is pray that they have the guts,
4:13:13 > 4:13:19have the conviction, have the ability and are able to do it.
4:13:19 > 4:13:23But as we talk, it's a question mark.
4:13:26 > 4:13:30So how will Martin McGuinness be remembered,
4:13:30 > 4:13:34given the question mark hanging over Stormont?
4:13:34 > 4:13:38I think when you're assessing Martin McGuinness's legacy, there are two
4:13:38 > 4:13:41aspects to it that shout out, both which have to be remembered.
4:13:41 > 4:13:44One is the crafting of a peace process which has the
4:13:44 > 4:13:46opportunity to make Northern Ireland, Ireland,
4:13:46 > 4:13:50British-Irish politics, transformed in a peaceful way
4:13:50 > 4:13:52which would not have been possible had people like McGuinness
4:13:52 > 4:13:55not decided to move the movement in that direction.
4:13:55 > 4:13:58Having said that, the irony of it is, of course,
4:13:58 > 4:14:01that we wouldn't have needed a peace process in Northern Ireland had it
4:14:01 > 4:14:04not been that in an earlier stage of his career,
4:14:04 > 4:14:07people like Martin McGuiness decided that lethal violence,
4:14:07 > 4:14:09IRA activity was a necessary and legitimate thing.
4:14:09 > 4:14:12And I think both parts of the legacy are important.
4:14:13 > 4:14:18Gunman or statesman, Provo or peacemaker,
4:14:18 > 4:14:23his past and our future now inextricably linked.