1:30:56 > 1:30:58Yo!
1:30:58 > 1:30:59Unlucky 13!
1:31:05 > 1:31:07Are these machines a social menace?
1:31:08 > 1:31:12They're called fixed odds betting terminals,
1:31:12 > 1:31:14or FOBTs, normally found in a bookmaker's shop.
1:31:21 > 1:31:24They're not like old-fashioned fruit machines,
1:31:24 > 1:31:26taking 10p and 20p coins.
1:31:27 > 1:31:29With these, you can feed in notes,
1:31:29 > 1:31:33and bet £100 every 20 seconds.
1:31:34 > 1:31:37Campaigners say that's harmful for problem gamblers,
1:31:37 > 1:31:40creating a dependence like crack cocaine.
1:31:40 > 1:31:44The FOBT gambling is the most addictive form of gambling.
1:31:44 > 1:31:47It should never have been allowed in Britain.
1:31:47 > 1:31:51The betting industry, which makes huge profits from the machines,
1:31:51 > 1:31:53says most people enjoy them responsibly.
1:31:55 > 1:31:57Tonight, I'm going to be learning more
1:31:57 > 1:31:59about fixed odds betting terminals.
1:31:59 > 1:32:02What I'm going to do is take £300 of my own money,
1:32:02 > 1:32:03and play them.
1:32:03 > 1:32:06Who knows, maybe win enough for a trip away in the New Year,
1:32:06 > 1:32:09or end up contributing my hard-earned cash
1:32:09 > 1:32:10to the bookie's Christmas party.
1:32:12 > 1:32:16There are believed to be more than 600 FOBTs in bookies here,
1:32:16 > 1:32:19about double what there were six years ago.
1:32:19 > 1:32:21An average of about two in every bookies.
1:32:24 > 1:32:26Like in Great Britain, all the big bookmakers here
1:32:26 > 1:32:30have fixed odds betting terminals in their shops.
1:32:30 > 1:32:33In GB, the machines were legalised in 2005.
1:32:36 > 1:32:37But gambling law is devolved,
1:32:37 > 1:32:40and that legislation doesn't apply in Northern Ireland.
1:32:40 > 1:32:43In fact, gambling legislation hasn't been updated here
1:32:43 > 1:32:46since as long ago as 1985.
1:32:46 > 1:32:50And that law says the maximum stake in a gaming machine is 30p.
1:32:50 > 1:32:55But the maximum stake in a fixed odds betting terminal is £100.
1:32:55 > 1:32:58Derek Webb is a former professional poker player,
1:32:58 > 1:33:02who now leads a UK-wide campaign against FOBTs.
1:33:02 > 1:33:06He's convinced that FOBTs should be regarded as gaming machines,
1:33:06 > 1:33:08and, because the law hasn't changed here,
1:33:08 > 1:33:11that they are illegal in Northern Ireland.
1:33:11 > 1:33:13It isn't just my view as well.
1:33:13 > 1:33:15I had a top QC in London
1:33:15 > 1:33:18prepare an analysis for me.
1:33:18 > 1:33:20And the QC's analysis was
1:33:20 > 1:33:25pretty much on board, exactly, with that notion that they are illegal.
1:33:25 > 1:33:28The NI Turf Guardians Association represents
1:33:28 > 1:33:31most of the bookmaking industry here.
1:33:31 > 1:33:35It's adamant that the FOBTs used by its members are legal.
1:33:35 > 1:33:39But if Derek Webb's lawyer, a QC, is right,
1:33:39 > 1:33:43it would mean all the big bookmaking chains here are breaking the law.
1:33:46 > 1:33:47There's two FOBTs in that one.
1:33:51 > 1:33:52Another three in this one.
1:33:55 > 1:33:57And four FOBTs in there.
1:34:00 > 1:34:02There's three more in that one.
1:34:04 > 1:34:05And four more in there.
1:34:07 > 1:34:09And another four in that one.
1:34:12 > 1:34:14We wanted to ask the bookies
1:34:14 > 1:34:16why they say their profits are obtained legally.
1:34:16 > 1:34:18They wouldn't do an interview.
1:34:19 > 1:34:23And it's not just the fact that some think the machines are illegal,
1:34:23 > 1:34:25which makes them controversial.
1:34:26 > 1:34:29Even in GB, where they have been legalised,
1:34:29 > 1:34:32there is huge controversy around them.
1:34:32 > 1:34:35About the speed of the games, and the sizes of the stakes.
1:34:39 > 1:34:44Last month, the government in Westminster acknowledged the danger.
1:34:44 > 1:34:46We believe that the current regulation of FOBTs
1:34:46 > 1:34:50is inappropriate to achieve our stated objective
1:34:50 > 1:34:53of protecting consumers and wider communities.
1:34:53 > 1:34:56The government said it would cut the maximum stake in GB
1:34:56 > 1:35:02from £100 every 20 seconds to somewhere between £50 and £2.
1:35:02 > 1:35:05Even this limited reform won't apply here.
1:35:10 > 1:35:14Gambling therapist Peter Pallin says something needs to be done.
1:35:14 > 1:35:17He says half his clients here, over the past decade,
1:35:17 > 1:35:19have been addicted to fixed odds betting terminals.
1:35:21 > 1:35:24People just gamble and gamble and gamble while there's money there.
1:35:24 > 1:35:26They won't feel hungry because...
1:35:26 > 1:35:29because what's going on is going to override that. Like...
1:35:30 > 1:35:32..spend everything they've got and more,
1:35:32 > 1:35:35but they just couldn't believe that they'd kept going and going,
1:35:35 > 1:35:37and kept going back, kept going back.
1:35:37 > 1:35:38And...
1:35:38 > 1:35:42But the win, when they win, is electrifying.
1:35:42 > 1:35:45And the fact that they've already lost money, you know,
1:35:45 > 1:35:47they'll have lost money, cos even if they win,
1:35:47 > 1:35:49they've actually, you know, they haven't really won,
1:35:49 > 1:35:52they're only getting a tiny wee bit of their money back.
1:35:52 > 1:35:55Derek Webb agrees that the problem is the speed of the FOBTs
1:35:55 > 1:35:59combined with the most popular game on them, roulette.
1:35:59 > 1:36:04Electronic gaming machines are up to several times faster
1:36:04 > 1:36:08than if you were playing the real, live game in a casino.
1:36:08 > 1:36:11At a busy table, which is when most players are playing,
1:36:11 > 1:36:15it can take up to two minutes to do a spin, yeah.
1:36:15 > 1:36:20But here you can bet every 20 seconds, so...
1:36:20 > 1:36:21..it's very fast.
1:36:21 > 1:36:23I'd be seeing how fast,
1:36:23 > 1:36:26playing the fixed odds betting terminals myself.
1:36:26 > 1:36:28I told Peter about my plan.
1:36:28 > 1:36:32I was surprised by the strength of his reaction.
1:36:32 > 1:36:33I think it's...
1:36:33 > 1:36:34..a really terrible idea.
1:36:34 > 1:36:36Why?
1:36:36 > 1:36:41Well, if you win, it won't be the last time you play.
1:36:41 > 1:36:44If you're not someone who has previously gambled,
1:36:44 > 1:36:46and you then win,
1:36:46 > 1:36:52then you go away with a distorted sense of your capacity to win.
1:36:52 > 1:36:56Certainly, I wouldn't be giving you any advice beyond - do not do it.
1:37:02 > 1:37:03As time passed,
1:37:03 > 1:37:06I began to wonder more about what he said.
1:37:06 > 1:37:08Was playing them a good idea?
1:37:09 > 1:37:12Back again, to McConville... What a goal!
1:37:12 > 1:37:14Oisin McConville...
1:37:14 > 1:37:15It started from McCann.
1:37:15 > 1:37:18Former GAA star Oisin McConville
1:37:18 > 1:37:20lost hundreds of thousands of pounds, gambling.
1:37:22 > 1:37:26People find it very difficult to understand, you know,
1:37:26 > 1:37:28the concept of somebody who's gambling
1:37:28 > 1:37:30because coming towards the end of my gambling,
1:37:30 > 1:37:32people were just saying to me, stop!
1:37:32 > 1:37:33Just stop, just cop on.
1:37:33 > 1:37:36And there is a little bit of that in it, but...
1:37:36 > 1:37:38I was in an addiction and, you know,
1:37:38 > 1:37:40I found it very difficult to get away from that.
1:37:40 > 1:37:44The best way I can describe it is if we see very vivid images on television
1:37:44 > 1:37:47of people who are strung out on drugs, in particular heroin,
1:37:47 > 1:37:49and they'll do anything to get that next hit.
1:37:49 > 1:37:53The hit for me was getting the money to have that bet.
1:37:53 > 1:37:56Oisin is now an addictions therapist.
1:37:56 > 1:37:58As well as the speed of FOBTs,
1:37:58 > 1:38:02he feels the amount of cash involved makes them very dangerous.
1:38:03 > 1:38:08What do you think it is about them...that makes them so addictive?
1:38:08 > 1:38:09I think they're quick.
1:38:09 > 1:38:13I never would have had a bet that would have lasted a day,
1:38:13 > 1:38:14or even a couple of hours,
1:38:14 > 1:38:17it all had to be quick, it was horse racing.
1:38:17 > 1:38:19And then that maybe took a little bit too long
1:38:19 > 1:38:22and then it was dog racing, towards the end,
1:38:22 > 1:38:24because it only took 20 or 30 seconds.
1:38:24 > 1:38:27£300 a minute, you can bet on these.
1:38:27 > 1:38:30Yeah, which is absolutely crazy, when you think about it.
1:38:30 > 1:38:33I told him about my plan to play them.
1:38:33 > 1:38:35I think for somebody like you,
1:38:35 > 1:38:38that's...probably a good idea.
1:38:38 > 1:38:41From somebody who's never experienced gambling,
1:38:41 > 1:38:43I think it's a brilliant experiment.
1:38:43 > 1:38:48I think you should go in with the frame of mind that I'm going to win,
1:38:48 > 1:38:52and see how that thinking changes within a short period of time.
1:38:53 > 1:38:56I'd be playing roulette on a FOBT,
1:38:56 > 1:38:58the game where more than a billion is lost
1:38:58 > 1:39:00in bookmakers in GB every year.
1:39:02 > 1:39:05I met up with Derek. He agreed to show me how to play them.
1:39:07 > 1:39:10First, he told me to expect something very different
1:39:10 > 1:39:12from the machines of my youth.
1:39:15 > 1:39:17No luck that time, Derek,
1:39:17 > 1:39:19but this is the type of fruit machine
1:39:19 > 1:39:21that people might be familiar with.
1:39:22 > 1:39:24Yeah, this is the real old-fashioned type of thing.
1:39:24 > 1:39:26What we're talking about in a FOBT
1:39:26 > 1:39:29- is a completely different type of game.- Oh, absolutely.
1:39:29 > 1:39:34The main game on the FOBT is roulette.
1:39:34 > 1:39:38Well, I'm going to be having a go at a FOBT, but first of all,
1:39:38 > 1:39:39I need to know how to play roulette,
1:39:39 > 1:39:43and I have come dressed for the occasion.
1:39:43 > 1:39:44How about that?!
1:39:44 > 1:39:48And you're going to tell me how to play roulette over here.
1:39:48 > 1:39:50Absolutely, let's do it.
1:40:05 > 1:40:07Well, an even-money shot is an easy way to start.
1:40:07 > 1:40:10So here we have got red and black,
1:40:10 > 1:40:12you can choose to bet one of those.
1:40:12 > 1:40:15And that would be an even-money pay-out,
1:40:15 > 1:40:18because there are 36 numbers,
1:40:18 > 1:40:21and 18 red numbers, 18 black numbers.
1:40:21 > 1:40:23So it's a bit like betting heads or tails, really?
1:40:23 > 1:40:28Yes. However there is the zero, which is the green number,
1:40:28 > 1:40:30and that is the house advantage.
1:40:30 > 1:40:33So there's a total of 37 numbers, rather than 36.
1:40:33 > 1:40:37What I'll do is... These chips are worth a pound each.
1:40:37 > 1:40:39I'll take five of them.
1:40:39 > 1:40:42And I'll bet on red.
1:40:42 > 1:40:45And if I win, how much do I get?
1:40:45 > 1:40:49Well, you will win £5, so your total payback will be £10,
1:40:49 > 1:40:51including your stake.
1:40:51 > 1:40:52And if it comes up black?
1:40:52 > 1:40:55Then you'll lose. You'll be £5 worse off.
1:40:55 > 1:40:57OK. Well, we'll have a go at that.
1:40:57 > 1:40:59£5 on red, please.
1:41:07 > 1:41:09Oh, black.
1:41:10 > 1:41:13It's come up black, I bet on red, and my money's gone.
1:41:13 > 1:41:18Gambling should not be regarded as a way to win money.
1:41:18 > 1:41:21It should be regarded as a way to pass the time, it should be
1:41:21 > 1:41:23regarded as entertainment.
1:41:23 > 1:41:26If you're gambling to win money from disposable income,
1:41:26 > 1:41:28you're making an error.
1:41:28 > 1:41:29I expect to be lucky.
1:41:29 > 1:41:32That's a perception,
1:41:32 > 1:41:34that's not a mathematical reality.
1:41:38 > 1:41:40So, the time has come for me to experience playing
1:41:40 > 1:41:43one of these FOBTs myself for the first time.
1:41:43 > 1:41:45The idea is that I'll start off with about £50,
1:41:45 > 1:41:49and if I win £20, that'll do me for today.
1:41:53 > 1:41:55Sorry, but your journey stops here.
1:41:55 > 1:41:58Even though the bookies say the machines are fun,
1:41:58 > 1:42:00they won't let us film me playing.
1:42:00 > 1:42:02I'll let you know how it goes.
1:42:18 > 1:42:21So, I've just finished playing, and the upshot is,
1:42:21 > 1:42:23I'm afraid I've lost the £50.
1:42:23 > 1:42:27I was trying to play conservatively, I was playing just red or black.
1:42:27 > 1:42:30£2 every time on red,
1:42:30 > 1:42:36I got up to... I think £8 was the biggest profit I had at any point.
1:42:36 > 1:42:39And then, the wheel of fortune just turned against me.
1:42:42 > 1:42:47£50, enough for a few drinks and dinner, had gone in 30 minutes.
1:42:49 > 1:42:51I still felt in control.
1:42:52 > 1:42:54Some are not so lucky.
1:42:54 > 1:42:58An estimated one in 50 here is a problem gambler.
1:43:01 > 1:43:05People become very skilled at covering their tracks and will go
1:43:05 > 1:43:09to extraordinary lengths to make sure that nobody finds out.
1:43:09 > 1:43:13You can't pick a gambler. What does a gambler look like, walking down the street?
1:43:13 > 1:43:15Because it's anybody. It's you, it's me, it's everybody.
1:43:17 > 1:43:21I went to Davina's Ark, an addiction recovery centre in Newry,
1:43:21 > 1:43:24to meet a group of people fighting gambling addiction.
1:43:24 > 1:43:27Due to the stigma that surrounds gambling,
1:43:27 > 1:43:29the group wanted to remain anonymous.
1:43:30 > 1:43:34The session started with a talk on the psychology of gambling.
1:43:34 > 1:43:37This evening, we're going to be looking at gambling and the brain.
1:43:37 > 1:43:40And just like individuals with alcohol or drug dependence,
1:43:40 > 1:43:44who develop tolerance for the alcohol or drug,
1:43:44 > 1:43:49you need higher doses to experience the desired mood or feeling.
1:43:49 > 1:43:52Members of the group were encouraged to talk about
1:43:52 > 1:43:54their own experiences of gambling.
1:43:55 > 1:43:5814, I started gambling, just going to bingo halls,
1:43:58 > 1:44:01just the odd time and stuff. Then I started playing roulette.
1:44:01 > 1:44:06You know, hit the button one time and won.
1:44:06 > 1:44:07And I was hooked.
1:44:07 > 1:44:10People wonder how you spend 12 hours in the bookmakers.
1:44:10 > 1:44:12Not a problem, not a bother at all.
1:44:12 > 1:44:15Not feeding yourself or nothing, you know.
1:44:15 > 1:44:17But you love that, it's a love affair.
1:44:17 > 1:44:20And they say to change your life after that there,
1:44:20 > 1:44:22it's very hard to. Every day's a struggle.
1:44:22 > 1:44:25I was just constantly trying to scheme to see how
1:44:25 > 1:44:27I could get out of this, because I couldn't bring
1:44:27 > 1:44:31it in my heart to come out with the embarrassment of - I'm a gambler.
1:44:33 > 1:44:36Of course, not everyone who gambles becomes an addict.
1:44:36 > 1:44:40The betting industry says that FOBTs are usually harmless fun.
1:44:40 > 1:44:43I'm going to try again.
1:44:43 > 1:44:47So, it's time for another go on the FOBTs. Started off with £300.
1:44:47 > 1:44:50As you can see, my bundle of notes is slightly slimmer now,
1:44:50 > 1:44:52I've lost £50.
1:44:52 > 1:44:55I'm going to trying get that £50 back this evening.
1:44:55 > 1:44:56Wish me luck.
1:45:07 > 1:45:10So, the upshot of that session is that I've lost another £10.
1:45:10 > 1:45:14I was nowhere near getting my £50 back that I lost the other day.
1:45:14 > 1:45:18Now I've lost another £10 on top of that, so I'm now £60 down.
1:45:18 > 1:45:20I think I'm playing too conservatively, I'm playing
1:45:20 > 1:45:23red or black, I'm not really getting the full FOBT experience.
1:45:23 > 1:45:25It might be time to take a few more risks.
1:45:27 > 1:45:31The money I lost could have been put towards Christmas presents.
1:45:31 > 1:45:33Now I'm chasing my losses.
1:45:34 > 1:45:36Oisin McConville explains
1:45:36 > 1:45:39how gambling differs from other addictions.
1:45:39 > 1:45:42The difference between the addictions is, like, for a gambler,
1:45:42 > 1:45:46he thinks the way out of his gambling addiction is one big win.
1:45:46 > 1:45:48So, in other words, gamble.
1:45:48 > 1:45:53Whereas an alcoholic or a drug addict knows that he has to stop,
1:45:53 > 1:45:57there has to be cessation, there has to be abstinence.
1:45:58 > 1:46:02Oisin also tried to solve his problem with one last bet.
1:46:04 > 1:46:08I had a loan which was guarantored by somebody.
1:46:10 > 1:46:12I went and had it on a horse.
1:46:12 > 1:46:14How much?
1:46:14 > 1:46:17I think it was £20,000.
1:46:17 > 1:46:18- On one horse?- Yeah.
1:46:18 > 1:46:20- Do you remember the name of the horse?- No.
1:46:20 > 1:46:22- Did it win?- No.
1:46:22 > 1:46:23What happened?
1:46:23 > 1:46:26The horse was beaten and
1:46:26 > 1:46:31the insanity of where I was at that time meant
1:46:31 > 1:46:38that I went to the car and I got £6, £7, £8 together,
1:46:38 > 1:46:41and I went in and had another bet.
1:46:41 > 1:46:42And that was it.
1:46:42 > 1:46:45Because I truly believed, this sounds insane,
1:46:45 > 1:46:50but I truly believed that £6 could get the 20 grand back
1:46:50 > 1:46:54and get the 100 before that, and the 50 before that.
1:46:54 > 1:47:00But also the feelings and the emotions and the self-respect,
1:47:00 > 1:47:03the self-esteem, the relationships and the friendships
1:47:03 > 1:47:04and the family members.
1:47:04 > 1:47:08I believed I could get all those back with that six or seven quid.
1:47:08 > 1:47:12I'd heard how severe a gambling addiction can become.
1:47:12 > 1:47:15It certainly made me pause for thought.
1:47:15 > 1:47:18But I still felt in control and wanted my £60 back.
1:47:20 > 1:47:23Derek was on hand with another lesson.
1:47:23 > 1:47:25How can I win more?
1:47:25 > 1:47:27How can I take more risk?
1:47:27 > 1:47:32The next type of opportunity is the 2-1 opportunity.
1:47:32 > 1:47:34So here, that's a bet on this column.
1:47:34 > 1:47:36So you've got three bet opportunities there,
1:47:36 > 1:47:38one on each column.
1:47:38 > 1:47:41And three bet opportunities here,
1:47:41 > 1:47:43one on each of the three dozens.
1:47:43 > 1:47:49Right, OK. And if I were to put £5 on that one, for example,
1:47:49 > 1:47:51how much would I get back?
1:47:51 > 1:47:53Well, that's a 2-1 pay-out,
1:47:53 > 1:47:58so you're trying to win £10 for your £5, a total of £15.
1:47:58 > 1:48:00- So, I'll have a go at that then. - Sure.
1:48:00 > 1:48:02Let's have a try.
1:48:02 > 1:48:06So, effectively what I'm doing, I'm betting £5 at 2-1,
1:48:06 > 1:48:09on the last 12 numbers.
1:48:09 > 1:48:11- Is that right?- Correct. - OK, let's have a go.
1:48:20 > 1:48:22Oh, that really couldn't have been further away from where
1:48:22 > 1:48:24I wanted it to be.
1:48:24 > 1:48:27It's at the other end of the board, so, again, £5 gone.
1:48:27 > 1:48:29So, Derek has shown me the 2-1 shot,
1:48:29 > 1:48:31so I'm going to take £90 of what I have left,
1:48:31 > 1:48:34and I think if I double that today, I'll be happy.
1:48:35 > 1:48:37Remember, you're not allowed in.
1:48:37 > 1:48:38You have to wait here.
1:48:49 > 1:48:5220 minutes later, and I'm afraid the £90 has gone.
1:48:52 > 1:48:55I was playing £5 a spin.
1:48:55 > 1:48:58I won on the first spin, and I had a profit of £10,
1:48:58 > 1:49:00and that was as good as it got.
1:49:00 > 1:49:03It was absolutely relentless.
1:49:03 > 1:49:04It was rapid, the money just went.
1:49:05 > 1:49:10In just 20 minutes, I donated £90 to bookmakers' profits.
1:49:10 > 1:49:14In GB, the regulator, the Gambling Commission,
1:49:14 > 1:49:16publishes how much bookies make from FOBTs.
1:49:16 > 1:49:21£50,000 a machine in the last year.
1:49:21 > 1:49:23There's no equivalent regulator here.
1:49:23 > 1:49:24In Northern Ireland,
1:49:24 > 1:49:28the profits from fixed odds betting terminals are a secret.
1:49:28 > 1:49:31The profits are good news for the shareholders,
1:49:31 > 1:49:34but potentially disastrous for those losing the money.
1:49:34 > 1:49:38Like Martin Paterson, a taxi driver from Glasgow.
1:49:38 > 1:49:42I was out to do a 10-hour shift in a taxi,
1:49:42 > 1:49:45and within half an hour, it would all be gone in a machine.
1:49:45 > 1:49:47How much are we talking?
1:49:47 > 1:49:50Maybe my day's shift would probably be about £80-90,
1:49:50 > 1:49:52if I'd had a good day. And a bad day was, like, 60.
1:49:52 > 1:49:54And all that money was going straight into a FOBT
1:49:54 > 1:49:57- at the end of the shift? - Straight into a machine, mate.
1:49:58 > 1:50:03You walk out the bookies and you'll stand there in total bewilderment
1:50:03 > 1:50:06that you actually done that, after promising yourself
1:50:06 > 1:50:09so many times that you would never do that again.
1:50:11 > 1:50:13Until he quit the machines in 2014,
1:50:13 > 1:50:16Martin's favourite game was roulette.
1:50:19 > 1:50:22I played roulette based on numbers, based on...
1:50:23 > 1:50:24I don't know what possessed me,
1:50:24 > 1:50:28but zero, everybody seems to chase the zero. So I chased the zero
1:50:28 > 1:50:32with numbers round about the zero, which happened to be birthdays.
1:50:32 > 1:50:3528, 29, 7, 14 - they're all birthdays,
1:50:35 > 1:50:37and they were all the numbers that...
1:50:37 > 1:50:40And it gets to the stage that nothing even matters,
1:50:40 > 1:50:42numbers doesn't matter, it's...
1:50:44 > 1:50:47It's the fix. It's horrible, horrible.
1:50:47 > 1:50:50Even when his money ran out, the taxi driver had
1:50:50 > 1:50:55ways of getting more cash and came up with excuses to hide his losses.
1:50:57 > 1:51:01I would tell my wife that the taxi had broke down, I needed to
1:51:01 > 1:51:06put the money to a new wheel, a new tyre, it needed a gasket.
1:51:06 > 1:51:10Do you know what I mean? It was always an excuse after an excuse.
1:51:10 > 1:51:13And then you've got to tell the taxi company as well, when a Monday comes
1:51:13 > 1:51:18that you've got to give them £150 for your weigh-in, for the radio,
1:51:18 > 1:51:19and I never had that.
1:51:19 > 1:51:22Many times, I had to go to the owners of the taxi company
1:51:22 > 1:51:25and say, listen, I'll pay double next week, I'll sort it out,
1:51:25 > 1:51:29I'll try and give something during the week, just to keep me on the road.
1:51:29 > 1:51:33Martin's experience with fixed odds betting terminals has led him
1:51:33 > 1:51:35to believe that they should be formally banned.
1:51:37 > 1:51:39- Personally, I'd like to see them out the door.- Banned completely?
1:51:39 > 1:51:42Banned completely, and that's just the machines. I'm not talking...
1:51:42 > 1:51:43I'm not anti gambling.
1:51:43 > 1:51:46If people want to gamble on horses and dogs and football,
1:51:46 > 1:51:47that's fair enough.
1:51:47 > 1:51:51These FOBT machines are designed to addict people.
1:51:52 > 1:51:55They addicted me and they've addicted thousands of others.
1:51:55 > 1:51:57It's a view shared by Oisin McConville.
1:51:57 > 1:51:58You think they're so dangerous,
1:51:58 > 1:52:01bookies should be made to take them out of the shops?
1:52:01 > 1:52:05Absolutely, and I think that should happen immediately.
1:52:05 > 1:52:09People like Martin playing FOBTs give the bookies in GB
1:52:09 > 1:52:12almost £2 billion a year.
1:52:12 > 1:52:17The equivalent figure here would add up to £30 million.
1:52:17 > 1:52:20Bookmakers here, say that's not a fair comparison
1:52:20 > 1:52:24because FOBTs aren't as popular as they are in GB.
1:52:24 > 1:52:26But they still wouldn't say how much they do make.
1:52:27 > 1:52:32As we know, Derek Webb's QC thinks any profits are unlawful.
1:52:32 > 1:52:36On the other hand, the bookies say they comply with the law.
1:52:37 > 1:52:40But Spotlight has obtained this letter, which indicates that
1:52:40 > 1:52:44another senior lawyer shares the view of Derek Webb
1:52:44 > 1:52:47and his lawyer and not the bookmakers' view.
1:52:47 > 1:52:50The letter is from the Attorney General, John Larkin,
1:52:50 > 1:52:53and it's to an MLA, Lord Morrow, earlier this year.
1:52:53 > 1:52:57And in the letter, John Larkin says he believes it's highly likely
1:52:57 > 1:53:01that fixed odds betting terminals are unlawful in Northern Ireland.
1:53:01 > 1:53:03Now, at the time when he received the letter,
1:53:03 > 1:53:06Lord Morrow was a backbencher, and that means that this is not
1:53:06 > 1:53:09a formal legal opinion to a government minister.
1:53:09 > 1:53:13And it's also important to say that the issue of whether fixed odds
1:53:13 > 1:53:17betting terminals are legal or not, has not been tested in the courts.
1:53:17 > 1:53:19We showed the letter to Derek Webb.
1:53:20 > 1:53:23We have obtained this letter.
1:53:23 > 1:53:27It's from the Attorney General, John Larkin, to an MLA,
1:53:27 > 1:53:29and he says, at the end here,
1:53:29 > 1:53:32that the use of such a machine on bookmakers' premises
1:53:32 > 1:53:35exceeding the maximum limits in terms of stake
1:53:35 > 1:53:38and pay-out, prescribed by the 1985 law that you mentioned, would not
1:53:38 > 1:53:41be lawful under the present legislation,
1:53:41 > 1:53:45- that's under the 1985 legislation. - I'd go stronger than that.
1:53:45 > 1:53:49I'd say they're engaged in criminal activity by obtaining profits
1:53:49 > 1:53:52illegally and then, when they legitimise those profits,
1:53:52 > 1:53:55they are engaged in money laundering.
1:53:56 > 1:53:58All the big bookies have them.
1:53:58 > 1:54:01They're all over Belfast and across Northern Ireland.
1:54:01 > 1:54:06William Hill, Ladbrokes, Sean Graham, Toals, McLean
1:54:06 > 1:54:09and Paddy Power - all of them, based on the views of some lawyers,
1:54:09 > 1:54:15at least, breaking the law for years. So, what's been done?
1:54:15 > 1:54:18Spotlight can reveal that the PSNI have now taken action.
1:54:18 > 1:54:20Yesterday, they told us
1:54:20 > 1:54:23that a bookmaker had been arrested in connection with operating
1:54:23 > 1:54:26a fixed odds betting terminal with a maximum stake
1:54:26 > 1:54:30and prize in excess of what is permitted for a gaming machine.
1:54:30 > 1:54:33A file has been sent to the Public Prosecution Service.
1:54:33 > 1:54:36Any trial is likely to be a test case of
1:54:36 > 1:54:39whether the machines are legal here.
1:54:39 > 1:54:43We tried unsuccessfully to contact Lord Morrow to ask why
1:54:43 > 1:54:46he was receiving a legal opinion about the machines.
1:54:46 > 1:54:49John Larkin declined to be interviewed.
1:54:49 > 1:54:51He said we shouldn't have his letter.
1:54:53 > 1:54:56My own journey playing FOBTs was nearly over.
1:54:56 > 1:55:00I wasn't happy contributing £150 to bookies' profits.
1:55:00 > 1:55:04And meeting people like Martin had definitely affected me.
1:55:04 > 1:55:08Reluctantly, it was time to experience the more volatile
1:55:08 > 1:55:11game of playing the numbers, as Martin had.
1:55:11 > 1:55:14Derek gave me another quick lesson.
1:55:14 > 1:55:18Well, we're going to talk about the numbers,
1:55:18 > 1:55:21and the numbers are the individual bets.
1:55:21 > 1:55:25So, you can bet one number or more and,
1:55:25 > 1:55:29if your number comes up, you're going to get 35-1.
1:55:29 > 1:55:32So, if I put £1 on a number and that number comes up,
1:55:32 > 1:55:35- I get £35 plus my £1 back?- Correct.
1:55:35 > 1:55:38OK, well, I'm going to be a bit more adventurous than that.
1:55:38 > 1:55:40I'm going to put £5 on four different numbers.
1:55:45 > 1:55:46Red, 25.
1:55:50 > 1:55:53- And we've lost 20. - So the 20's completely gone.
1:55:55 > 1:55:58You can run out of money at roulette very quickly.
1:56:04 > 1:56:09So this is the last day's betting, and there's part of me
1:56:09 > 1:56:11that's quite glad, to be honest. I've had no luck at all.
1:56:11 > 1:56:14I started off with £300. I've already lost half of that.
1:56:14 > 1:56:17And I think, if today, I could get that money back, look,
1:56:17 > 1:56:18that would be enough.
1:56:32 > 1:56:38Good news - I got the money back, £300. £150, I won in ten minutes.
1:56:38 > 1:56:42It was exhilarating and, at the same time,
1:56:42 > 1:56:48it was worrying because I was able to win £150 in just ten minutes.
1:56:48 > 1:56:50All the money I've lost over the last week,
1:56:50 > 1:56:53I got back in just ten minutes.
1:56:53 > 1:56:57And I'd said beforehand that, if I won that £150 back, I'd stop but,
1:56:57 > 1:57:00of course, when you're winning, you don't want to stop,
1:57:00 > 1:57:01you want to keep going.
1:57:01 > 1:57:04And having spoken to people like Martin, I have to realise
1:57:04 > 1:57:07that there's another side to these machines.
1:57:07 > 1:57:11Yes, I'm sure that some people do enjoy playing these machines
1:57:11 > 1:57:13and can play them responsibly,
1:57:13 > 1:57:18but I have felt that I've got my money back, I'm happy
1:57:18 > 1:57:21and I don't think that this is something I want to continue doing.
1:57:23 > 1:57:27There'll be no contribution from me to the bookies' Christmas party.
1:57:29 > 1:57:32Meeting people like Martin, means I've seen enough.
1:57:33 > 1:57:37Once you're addicted to these things, it's horrible.
1:57:37 > 1:57:38It's like any addiction.
1:57:38 > 1:57:42I just think people don't see it as a problem
1:57:42 > 1:57:44because it's a machine as such.
1:57:44 > 1:57:47It's not a substance, it's not an alcohol, it's not a drug.
1:57:48 > 1:57:51But me, personally, I call it a Class A drug -
1:57:51 > 1:57:54it's the top kitty, it's the bhoona.
1:57:54 > 1:57:57And the industry know that, and that's why they're doing
1:57:57 > 1:58:00everything in their power to make sure that they stay.
1:58:00 > 1:58:03The betting industry says it's not aware of any proven link
1:58:03 > 1:58:06between FOBTs and problem gambling.
1:58:06 > 1:58:09The six biggest bookmaking firms here all refused us
1:58:09 > 1:58:13access to their shops to film fixed odds betting terminals in action.
1:58:13 > 1:58:16And they even refused to talk to us on camera about the machines.
1:58:16 > 1:58:19And this e-mail, we have obtained, may explain why.
1:58:19 > 1:58:22It's from the Northern Ireland Turf Guardians' Association,
1:58:22 > 1:58:25which represents most of the industry.
1:58:25 > 1:58:26In it, they say,
1:58:26 > 1:58:30"I am writing to inform everyone that the NIGTA shall not be
1:58:30 > 1:58:33"supplying a representative for interview and that any question will
1:58:33 > 1:58:37"be addressed by written statement through our media advisors.
1:58:37 > 1:58:40"Should individual bookmakers be contacted,
1:58:40 > 1:58:43"I would advise contacting either myself or our chairman,
1:58:43 > 1:58:46"and we can put them in touch with the media consultants."
1:58:49 > 1:58:54So the bookies, who are making huge profits, perhaps unlawfully,
1:58:54 > 1:58:56stay hidden and quiet.
1:58:57 > 1:59:01But FOBT addicts are starting to speak up,
1:59:01 > 1:59:05while counting a cost not only measured in pounds and pence.
1:59:06 > 1:59:07It was such a relief.
1:59:07 > 1:59:12It was such a relief one day that I thought that I was going to end it.
1:59:12 > 1:59:14And...
1:59:14 > 1:59:17I feel as if the weight was lifted off my shoulders, I wasn't going to
1:59:17 > 1:59:20harm anybody else, I wasn't going to have to borrow money.
1:59:20 > 1:59:23And then you start thinking about the long-term effect
1:59:23 > 1:59:25that would have on your family and stuff like that.
1:59:25 > 1:59:28That's what sort of brings you round a wee bit.
1:59:29 > 1:59:36You thought that the only way out of your FOBT addiction was to end your own life?
1:59:36 > 1:59:41- Yeah.- And that seemed like a relief? - Yeah. Yeah.
1:59:45 > 1:59:47Over the past decade,
1:59:47 > 1:59:51the number of machines has risen rapidly in Northern Ireland.
1:59:51 > 1:59:56Increasing just as swiftly, are concerns that, for some,
1:59:56 > 2:00:00the fun of fixed odds betting terminals stopped long ago.