:01:19. > :01:25.David Cameron thinks they're a good idea, so why does Derby's Chief
:01:26. > :01:35.Constable think that commissioners should come with a health warning?
:01:36. > :01:36.
:01:36. > :35:16.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2020 seconds
:35:16. > :35:20.Hello, I'm Marie Ashby. The East Midlands is clearly the place to be
:35:20. > :35:23.after that massive Lottery win. Later we'll be asking if elected
:35:24. > :35:26.police commissioners could be too much of a gamble. Why a
:35:26. > :35:33.Conservative city council leader insists they should come with a
:35:33. > :35:36.health warning. And a warm welcome to our guests
:35:36. > :35:40.this week. The Labour MP for Bassetlaw, John Mann and Andrew
:35:40. > :35:43.Bridgen, the Conservative MP in North-West Leicestershire. Both
:35:43. > :35:46.have a reputation for tough talking, so this should be interesting.
:35:46. > :35:49.Before we get down to it, the story everyone's been talking about. The
:35:49. > :35:58.Mansfield couple just down the road from you, John, who've won �40
:35:58. > :36:06.million on the Lottery. To make matters worse, they look so nice!
:36:06. > :36:13.What would you do with that kind of money, �40 million? I would try to
:36:13. > :36:17.go up town and get a bit of a break with my wife. A tiny proportion of
:36:17. > :36:23.that would assist. The you might be right. What about you, Andrew?
:36:23. > :36:29.design and a marginal -- it is an unimaginable amount of money. I am
:36:29. > :36:32.really pleased for them. In our society if you worked and earned
:36:32. > :36:38.�40 million through your own endeavours, you would pay 50% of it
:36:38. > :36:41.intact but if you win it just by pure luck, you get away with a tax-
:36:41. > :36:45.free. I don't know what message we are sending out. I don't think that
:36:45. > :36:49.is a worry they have. Would you handed back to the Exchequer?
:36:49. > :36:51.would give a lot to charity. Onto more serious stuff. You've
:36:51. > :36:54.been critical of Ed Miliband's leadership of the Labour Party
:36:54. > :37:01.recently, John. Anything to do with the fact that you're sponsored as
:37:01. > :37:07.an MP by the GMB union? constituency receives lots of money
:37:07. > :37:12.from individuals, businessman and from unions and if any out there
:37:12. > :37:16.wants to give more, as long as they are honest, I am sure my party
:37:16. > :37:19.would want to take it. You are on record saying that you need a
:37:20. > :37:25.coherent deficit reduction plan, you sound like he has not got a
:37:25. > :37:28.plan. He has got one but it is not coherent enough. That is why he is
:37:28. > :37:33.lagging in the opinion polls. I think we need something coherent. I
:37:33. > :37:38.don't think it is fully coherent yet and I am willing to assist him.
:37:39. > :37:42.I put down some bills on what could be cut from public spending, 27
:37:42. > :37:47.girls and if he is wise he will adopt them. And if the Tory liberal
:37:47. > :37:52.coalition is wise, they will pinch a few of my ideas. At untrue, on
:37:52. > :37:55.union sponsorship, nothing wrong with unions sponsoring MPs --
:37:55. > :38:03.Andrew, on union sponsorship. think there is a subtle difference.
:38:03. > :38:11.Only 10% of the population are in the unions. The Labour Party has
:38:11. > :38:16.been in the pockets of the unions for a long time.A member of two
:38:16. > :38:21.unions, Unite and GMB and a liaison officer for the unions with the
:38:21. > :38:26.Labour Party. I run a small business as well, business people
:38:26. > :38:30.and trade unions assist in getting the re-elected. And if that was
:38:30. > :38:35.happening that would be fine, but it is not. As a General Secretary
:38:35. > :38:41.said, the unions have input to policy making at every single level.
:38:41. > :38:47.That is why you have not got a single deficit reduction plan. His
:38:47. > :38:51.the union members had a greater say, what union members would be saying.
:38:51. > :38:54.It would be similar to me. A does not make sense to cut the police.
:38:54. > :38:58.Cuts can be made that could go a lot further but we should be
:38:58. > :39:02.spelling them out. That is precisely why I have put 27 built
:39:02. > :39:08.into Parliament on what could be cut without affecting people in
:39:08. > :39:11.this area. -- 27 bells. Debt hit one trillion pounds last week. What
:39:11. > :39:16.level of national debt do you think we should live to our children and
:39:16. > :39:20.grandchildren? I think we should be doing President Obama is now doing
:39:20. > :39:24.in America, where the economy is growing, stimulate the economy by
:39:24. > :39:28.creating more businesses, making sure people have got money to spend
:39:28. > :39:34.and ensuring that our children have jobs. People with jobs pay taxes
:39:34. > :39:39.and that is... The Labour line is we will still try to borrow our way
:39:39. > :39:43.out of a debt crisis? If it is good enough for Obama... I am not sure
:39:43. > :39:47.you should be advising Ed Miliband. I didn't think he would be a green
:39:47. > :39:49.of this. Let's move on. Before we move onto another
:39:49. > :39:52.controversial area, police commissioners, let's see if there's
:39:52. > :39:55.something we can get you to agree on. This week, Derbyshire Chief
:39:55. > :39:58.Fire Officer, Sean Frayne, called for it to be compulsory for all new
:39:58. > :40:01.homes to be fitted with fire sprinklers. It follows the deaths
:40:01. > :40:06.of four children in a blaze at their home near Ashbourne. And it
:40:06. > :40:07.probably started because there was no fire guard in the living room.
:40:07. > :40:11.The Inside Out programme demonstrated the dramatic
:40:11. > :40:21.difference sprinklers can make. The room on the left had them, the one
:40:21. > :40:21.
:40:21. > :40:26.And when you see what difference sprinklers make, surely it is a no-
:40:26. > :40:29.brainer. All new homes should have them fitted? Homes of a certain
:40:29. > :40:39.size with a certain number of have intense have compulsory sprinklers
:40:39. > :40:44.at the moment. -- a certain number of inhabitants. I would maintain
:40:44. > :40:48.that most fires are probably in older houses with defective wiring.
:40:48. > :40:52.It will not address that problem at all. It is a very long term
:40:52. > :40:56.solution. But it would have helped in this particular case. How old
:40:56. > :41:06.was the House? And give it is not maintained, will they maintain the
:41:06. > :41:07.
:41:07. > :41:14.sprinklers? De year a grey with -- do you agree with the Derbyshire
:41:14. > :41:18.Fire Commission that all new houses should have sprinklers? People are
:41:18. > :41:21.putting their lives on the line, it could make a huge difference and
:41:21. > :41:25.would certainly save lives and it is certainly worth considering.
:41:25. > :41:29.are not talking about a huge amount of money, Andrew, we are talking
:41:29. > :41:34.about �1,500 and �2,000. If that will save lives? That is for new
:41:34. > :41:41.houses and how many new houses are we building's a couple of 1,000 a
:41:41. > :41:45.year. It will take a long time to filter through. they cannot be used
:41:45. > :41:51.as an excuse to cut back on fire services. The risk is old houses.
:41:51. > :41:55.That is not what the Fire Service says, there has not been a single
:41:55. > :41:59.death in a house with sprinklers they did. How many have got
:41:59. > :42:03.sprinklers fitted? I do not know. The cost will come down because the
:42:03. > :42:09.fire risk is an insurance risk so if this is done in a big scale, it
:42:09. > :42:13.could well be self-funding. local councils can do it themselves.
:42:13. > :42:18.In it was worth it in every new building, there would be economies
:42:18. > :42:22.of scale that of sound like a good idea to move. You would get local
:42:22. > :42:25.authorities looking at this? should do. We will look at it.
:42:25. > :42:28.Next, they're already compulsory and by the end of this year we'll
:42:28. > :42:30.all have one. I'm talking elected police commissioners. But as our
:42:30. > :42:34.political editor, John Hess, reports, the very idea is already
:42:34. > :42:38.causing tensions within the coalition and Labour ranks.
:42:38. > :42:43.Here's a job opportunity you won't find in the papers. Salary, just
:42:43. > :42:51.over �75,000. Job secured for four years and the option of a further
:42:51. > :42:54.four years. And the perks? For starters, your own police force.
:42:54. > :42:57.The job is Police and Crime Commissioner. There'll be one for
:42:57. > :42:59.each county force in England and Wales. They won't replace chief
:42:59. > :43:01.constables, they'll still retain day-to-day operational
:43:01. > :43:04.responsibilities but the commissioner - directly elected by
:43:04. > :43:14.local voters - will shape force strategy, budgets and ask those
:43:14. > :43:20.
:43:20. > :43:23.It's one of David Cameron's big ideas. I want there to be police
:43:23. > :43:26.commissioners so when they do a good job calling the police to
:43:26. > :43:30.account and are fighting crime in the way local people want, they get
:43:31. > :43:39.re-elected and if they do a bad job, they will get thrown out. But this
:43:40. > :43:46.senior East Midlands Tory isn't convinced. Community
:43:46. > :43:54.representatives soon to be replaced by a commissioner. He will services
:43:54. > :43:57.a manifesto. -- He or she will say, "this is the manifesto I was
:43:57. > :44:07.elected on as Chief Constable", now you will now deliver these things.
:44:07. > :44:08.
:44:08. > :44:12.It's going to up the ante. And the person in charge of police
:44:12. > :44:14.operating for accounting. It's back on the political beat for Paddy
:44:14. > :44:19.Tipping. He's a former Labour MP embracing the Conservatives' big
:44:19. > :44:24.idea of elected police commissioners. He's planning to run
:44:24. > :44:28.in November's election for the Nottinghamshire job. There is a
:44:28. > :44:31.police authority with a lot of people but it's got no real focus.
:44:31. > :44:33.There's a difference between a police authority making policy and
:44:33. > :44:43.police commissioner who's directly elected and more accountable to
:44:43. > :44:47.
:44:47. > :44:51.local people. I am out and about already, I am talking to people.
:44:51. > :44:54.What they want his neighbourhood policing, crime to go down.
:44:54. > :44:59.Nottinghamshire Police have made improvement but there's a lot to do.
:44:59. > :45:03.By and it is that a political edge that worries the Police Federation.
:45:03. > :45:09.With an elected commissioner, he will have temptations to meddle
:45:09. > :45:11.with operational concern. But is a concern. It is. You have then a
:45:11. > :45:17.political interference and control over policing and we are supposed
:45:17. > :45:21.to be independent. That could lead to a serious bust up. The potential
:45:21. > :45:26.is that you have one individual elected on commitments that are
:45:26. > :45:29.inevitably going to be about operational policing matters.
:45:29. > :45:33.When of course operational policing matters are the responsibility of
:45:33. > :45:36.the Chief Constable. The potential there is for a level of conflict
:45:37. > :45:41.which not be good for local police to. Greater scrutiny and
:45:41. > :45:45.accountability. The police face a new investigator. The commission is
:45:45. > :45:54.on their case. Let's round up the political week
:45:54. > :45:59.in the East Midlands in 60 Seconds Paddy Tipping thinks it is a good
:45:59. > :46:04.idea. What a bad idea, what a waste of money. Politicians sticking
:46:04. > :46:08.their nosed into matters. Is that how you see it? Total waste of time.
:46:08. > :46:12.We do not need more politicians, this is more politicians. We do not
:46:12. > :46:16.need them sticking their nose into the running of the police, it is a
:46:16. > :46:22.terrible idea, a total waste of money. The waste of time, waste of
:46:22. > :46:29.money, Andrew? You said plenty of ex-Labour politicians interested in
:46:29. > :46:35.the position. There is not a national solution to crime,
:46:35. > :46:38.problems in different areas from different areas and it allows for
:46:38. > :46:42.localisation of priorities and resources to address local issues.
:46:42. > :46:48.We talked about the cost and it is claimed that bringing the system in
:46:48. > :46:52.could cost �100 million. Not at all. At the same time, police forces are
:46:52. > :46:56.having to lose hundreds of officers. The election will cost about �50
:46:56. > :47:00.million nationally every four years which is 0.1% of the police budget
:47:00. > :47:04.and that will not be borne by local constabularies or councils, it will
:47:04. > :47:08.be paid for by government. We will not have to save much on efficiency
:47:08. > :47:11.to save that much. And the commissioner will be replacing the
:47:11. > :47:16.police authorities so there is a cost there. He is making it sound
:47:16. > :47:19.easy. The figures we were given is something like 100 million as well
:47:19. > :47:23.which would employ something like 1,000 extra police officers across
:47:23. > :47:28.the country. We have just seen the figures for the amount of stuff we
:47:28. > :47:32.have lost, 6,000 already. Estimated to lose another 16,000 nationally.
:47:32. > :47:35.We are saying this is not necessarily the right time to do it,
:47:35. > :47:42.let's spend the money on actual police officer numbers to maintain
:47:42. > :47:50.the games we have made in crime numbers. Is this a price worth
:47:50. > :47:56.paying? You already have the democratic accountability. Police
:47:56. > :48:02.authorities have worked well and they represent the Spectrum's of
:48:02. > :48:05.politics. Their work without lay members on there. You will still
:48:05. > :48:11.have that player with these new police and Crown Commissioners
:48:11. > :48:14.because they will set up police and crime panels beneath them -- crime
:48:14. > :48:18.commissioners. The money that Andrew is suggesting that could be
:48:18. > :48:21.saved will not be saved because they are still there, you are
:48:21. > :48:27.adding an extra layer of bureaucracy. Do you need that when
:48:27. > :48:30.you're trying to fight crime and crime is going up? Police and crime
:48:30. > :48:33.commissioners will have set out their manifestos set in their
:48:33. > :48:36.budget for the area and also their priorities and that will be
:48:36. > :48:40.endorsed by the people. But his local democracy working. You are
:48:40. > :48:44.not just worried about the time involved and the money, you are
:48:44. > :48:49.worried also that the commissioners may medal in the general policy.
:48:49. > :48:53.Andrew has alluded to, they will have an agenda and what about that
:48:53. > :49:00.happens to be when they are elected, it could be with a low turnout
:49:00. > :49:06.could be a single issue. There's real dangers for the rest of the
:49:06. > :49:11.county which could have funding and policing withdrawn on the back of
:49:11. > :49:18.whatever small minority has voted the commissioner in. A low turnout
:49:18. > :49:22.would not be good, I would agree. Philip Hicks and in our film was a
:49:22. > :49:27.word that he would end up politicising the police. It will go
:49:27. > :49:32.the other way. It pulled not be controlled by Whitehall, it will be
:49:32. > :49:37.controlled by the local people -- it will not be controlled by
:49:37. > :49:42.Whitehall. Focusing hard on the big issues, something police
:49:42. > :49:47.authorities failed to do. There will always be somebody who wants
:49:47. > :49:52.the job. You seen their merit in it was Mark I don't think anyone in my
:49:52. > :49:57.area wants to see money spent on elected politician rather than that
:49:57. > :50:03.money be spent on extra police that we have lost from the area. Just
:50:03. > :50:06.the cost in Bassetlaw is the equivalent of four police officers.
:50:06. > :50:09.Nobody in Bassetlaw would rather have this ridiculous election and
:50:09. > :50:13.all the wasted money and bureaucracy rather than the four
:50:13. > :50:22.police officers. That goes across the whole of the country. It is a
:50:22. > :50:29.gimmick, a bad gimmick. Sorry to interrupt, John, but we already
:50:29. > :50:33.have one of the most accountable police forces. We are accountable
:50:33. > :50:38.to HMRC, the Independent Police Complaints Commission. And the
:50:38. > :50:44.police authorities that are already set up. And we have Freedom of
:50:44. > :50:48.Information Act request that we are accountable to the public. We are
:50:48. > :50:52.open to the public and to introduce an Americanised model would have
:50:52. > :50:56.some real dangers. Do not get me wrong, we will work with whoever
:50:56. > :51:02.the Government appoints because it is the Government's decision.
:51:02. > :51:06.would have to. It is for politicians to decide and we will
:51:06. > :51:11.work with whatever. -- you would have to. You do not want another
:51:11. > :51:15.layer? With the consent of the people, what better way of getting
:51:15. > :51:21.that and having locally elected police commissioners elected by the
:51:21. > :51:24.people they are there to serve? is purely a gimmick. We do not want
:51:24. > :51:29.politicians meddling with the police. We do not want money taken
:51:29. > :51:33.away from the police and wasted in this way. We can hold the police
:51:33. > :51:36.accountable at as it is. You what an efficient police service serving
:51:37. > :51:41.our communities and this distract from eight and takes resources away
:51:41. > :51:46.from it. Do you think people watching will think this is bad
:51:46. > :51:53.timing? Women need to fight crime, you are talking about spending this
:51:53. > :51:57.money which we cannot afford? not a huge amount, it is 0.1%.
:51:57. > :52:07.1,000 police officers across the country, but is the size of a small
:52:07. > :52:11.
:52:11. > :52:16.shire force. That is a huge amount. This is the fact that the Labour
:52:16. > :52:20.Party run their country into a huge debt... More members see that as
:52:20. > :52:25.losing their jobs, jobs going in order to pay for a couple of
:52:25. > :52:28.politicians to be put in their place. That... 1,000 police
:52:28. > :52:32.officers would be on the streets keeping this country safer if we
:52:32. > :52:39.did not use this money. Also a bigger thing that the commissioner
:52:39. > :52:43.has also got, the power to divert money into other community schemes.
:52:43. > :52:48.If he is elected on manifesto for a particular electorate, there's a
:52:48. > :52:52.huge temptation to spend that money in that group. If there is a danger
:52:52. > :52:57.that he would have too much power, is that the case? The there will be
:52:57. > :53:02.checks and balances. What will they be? An inspector from the Police
:53:02. > :53:07.Inspectorate will be making sure the force is still compliance with
:53:07. > :53:12.rules. You are talking about accountability to the local people
:53:12. > :53:16.and he will want to do a good job if they want to get re-elected. If
:53:16. > :53:21.people wanted, they will fight for efficiency savings and there is
:53:21. > :53:25.huge scope for that. A police commissioner will not do that. The
:53:25. > :53:33.only power they will have will be meddling. And they will just a
:53:33. > :53:37.waste more money. What we needed more police out there, not more
:53:37. > :53:44.politicians. Frankly, give that choice in a referendum to people.
:53:44. > :53:54.Do you want more politicians or policemen? We will have to leave it
:53:54. > :53:58.
:53:58. > :54:02.there. Let's round up with 60 The Lord Mayor of Leicester, may be
:54:02. > :54:07.suspended over claims he got senior officers to cancel his parking
:54:07. > :54:10.tickets. He maintains they were wrongly issued to him in the first
:54:10. > :54:16.place. Watch this space! It is a subject which has generated
:54:16. > :54:20.a lot of heat on our programme. Now East Midland lawyers have found
:54:20. > :54:25.their latest legal challenge against government plans to reduce
:54:25. > :54:28.solar panel subsidies for. The Policy Research Unit, Centre
:54:28. > :54:34.for cities says Nottingham is bottom of the league in the UK when
:54:34. > :54:38.it comes to creating jobs in the private sector. At the top, East
:54:38. > :54:42.Crawley in East Sussex. It costs the county's police force
:54:42. > :54:46.is nearly �1 million. The last time the English Defence League marched
:54:46. > :54:52.through Leicester. The far-right group is planning another march
:54:52. > :55:00.next month. This time, the police want pubs and shops to ban the sale