:01:33. > :01:43.Here, the latest allegations on a council leaders expenses.
:01:43. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :31:01.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1757 seconds
:31:01. > :31:05.And growing pressure to redefine Hello. I marry Ashby and with me
:31:05. > :31:11.today is Pauline Latham and the Labour MP for Nottingham East Chris
:31:11. > :31:17.Leslie. -- Marie Ashby. Chris is Shadow Treasury Minister.
:31:17. > :31:25.First, a minefield for all MPs. Expenses. There is an investigation
:31:25. > :31:29.into those made by David Pleat -- David Parsons, the Conservative
:31:29. > :31:33.leader of Leicestershire County Council. It relates to trips to
:31:33. > :31:40.Brussels and apparently goes back five years. With me to discuss this
:31:40. > :31:45.is the political reporter for BBC Radio Leicester, Eleanor Garnier.
:31:45. > :31:50.This started last year. A whistleblower work sent a series of
:31:50. > :31:55.letters to the leader of the county council. They sent me copies of
:31:55. > :32:02.those letters. The Chief Executive ordered an internal investigation
:32:02. > :32:11.which has resulted in Spain report into David Parsons's travel inspect
:32:11. > :32:15.-- travel expenses back to 2006. He has been that a key used off
:32:15. > :32:20.overcharging East Midlands councils. They advanced his travel expenses
:32:20. > :32:24.to Brussels but he was being reimbursed by the European Union.
:32:24. > :32:30.Because of that, the report is saying he was not paying the money
:32:30. > :32:35.back promptly. In one ear, despite four written requests, he did not
:32:35. > :32:40.make a single repayment. David Parsons says he has paid it
:32:40. > :32:45.all back and blames the problem on communication difficulties between
:32:45. > :32:51.the EU and East Midlands Councils. He is denying any wrongdoing and
:32:51. > :32:54.said that this week he wrote a cheque at �500 to East Midlands
:32:54. > :32:58.Councils. Behind closed doors, Conservative councillors a
:32:58. > :33:01.Leicestershire are worried and angry about this.
:33:02. > :33:05.So what happens next, will he survive as leader?
:33:05. > :33:10.This report will go to the corporate governance committee on
:33:10. > :33:13.Monday and I would be surprised if they simply noted the report.
:33:14. > :33:17.Having had conversations with people in the council I would be
:33:17. > :33:21.surprised if there was not a comment on the serious nature of
:33:21. > :33:24.the allegations. This can also be referred to the standards committee
:33:24. > :33:29.which looks into the code of conduct of members and their
:33:29. > :33:33.behaviour. Finally, a week on Wednesday David Parsons would
:33:33. > :33:37.normally be at a meeting in Brussels. Today we need to ask it
:33:37. > :33:41.will he choose to does that meeting or will he be allowed to go at that
:33:41. > :33:46.meeting? Find you very much, and learner.
:33:46. > :33:52.Pauline, dear have any sympathy for David Parsons?
:33:52. > :33:56.Expenses are a nightmare and claiming them are a nightmare. It
:33:56. > :34:02.appears he does not have set pay things out and then the claim them
:34:02. > :34:06.back. They are difficult and it is hard to keep on top of the man has
:34:06. > :34:10.put -- and devote the time required to them. There is a lot of pressure
:34:10. > :34:14.on you to get it right and you have to get it right because it is
:34:14. > :34:19.public money. Do full-time politicians like MPs
:34:19. > :34:23.and council leaders get enough support to run their offices?
:34:23. > :34:29.That is a good question but at this point in time it is not just about
:34:29. > :34:33.avoiding impropriety but avoiding the perception of impropriety. If
:34:33. > :34:39.you can avoid the finances going through the bone at bided out of
:34:39. > :34:44.the politician, direct payments, would be a far safer way of keeping
:34:44. > :34:46.this above board. Let us talk now about this week's
:34:46. > :34:53.report by the Inspectorate of Constabulary in such undercover
:34:53. > :34:56.policing. 20 environmental campaigners were convicted of
:34:56. > :35:00.conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass at Ratcliffe on Soar power
:35:00. > :35:05.station. The convictions were overturned amid controversy over
:35:05. > :35:09.the role of undercover police officer Mark Kennedy. Pauline, the
:35:09. > :35:15.Inspectorate is very critical of the extent to which Mark Kennedy
:35:16. > :35:20.Ruth -- the extent to which Mark Kennedy abused his role. Should we
:35:20. > :35:24.be allowing police Superintendents to sign these jobs off?
:35:24. > :35:28.My understanding is that although that is the level they should be
:35:28. > :35:32.signed off at, it is actually assistant chief constables to sign
:35:32. > :35:37.it off. I think they should be responsible enough to sign these
:35:37. > :35:43.things off and I do think undercover operations are very
:35:43. > :35:47.important in the crime detection. But if an officer wants to
:35:47. > :35:50.intercept a phone conversation, he or she needs the approval of the
:35:50. > :35:56.Home Secretary first. It needs to go to that level.
:35:56. > :36:00.Again, I think that goes too far. Chief constables should be able to
:36:00. > :36:03.authorise that sort of thing. Bothering the Secretary of State
:36:03. > :36:09.that everything happening in the country, I must be happening all
:36:09. > :36:16.over the place, is over the top. The his undercover missions can be
:36:16. > :36:20.crucial. Should he be involved? My feeling is that he should be
:36:20. > :36:24.involved or they could be some independent arrangement. Keeping it
:36:24. > :36:31.within the police, you need to make sure there is an approval process
:36:31. > :36:35.one step removed so someone can ask questions. I think there are some
:36:35. > :36:39.serious issues that have come from their us and we should probably
:36:39. > :36:45.revealed how these undercover operations get uproots in future
:36:45. > :36:51.because, you know, there has been a lot of concern in my constituency.
:36:51. > :36:53.Pauline, for many people the most important question is should
:36:53. > :36:58.embarrass a campaigners be targeted in the first place?
:36:58. > :37:01.Yes, I think they should, because they were not going to act lawfully.
:37:01. > :37:06.I think people should have found out what they were going to do and
:37:06. > :37:11.what they were up to to try to stop civil unrest. I do believe we
:37:11. > :37:16.should have undercover operations but they should be monitored. They
:37:16. > :37:22.should be monitored and there should be claimed of conduct. I
:37:22. > :37:32.would be very wary if an outside body was policing that. -- codes of
:37:32. > :37:33.
:37:34. > :37:39.conduct. They could push people suspected of being under cover to
:37:39. > :37:44.do things they knew they should not He the rules for a investigating
:37:44. > :37:50.people are too widely drawn, according to the reports, they
:37:50. > :37:57.should focus on serious crime and serious disruption to the community.
:37:57. > :38:02.This is a problem. How do we define domestic extremism? Did this really
:38:02. > :38:06.merit such a long-standing undercover operation? It is
:38:06. > :38:11.difficult for us to second guess that. Threats can come from all
:38:11. > :38:15.sorts of different circumstances but we need a tighter definition of
:38:15. > :38:19.extremism and a proper sign-off a level which is accountable. That is
:38:19. > :38:27.why I feel it should be ministers signing this off.
:38:27. > :38:32.Is it time for new rules, Pauline? Yes, times have changed. We have a
:38:32. > :38:36.new government. We need to draw a line under that and let us look at
:38:36. > :38:40.it again to make sure we get it right this time.
:38:40. > :38:45.I am not sure if we should or should not have had popped --
:38:45. > :38:48.should or should not have had prosecutions in this case. There
:38:48. > :38:51.will be times when we need that level of police scrutiny Bellini to
:38:51. > :38:56.have safeguards for civil rights as well.
:38:56. > :39:03.From one moral conundrum to another, one of our local county councils
:39:03. > :39:10.has chosen to roll-out a radical scheme that helps people to invest
:39:10. > :39:16.in help paint problem families and offenders. Eleanor Garnier reports.
:39:16. > :39:22.Four there are 120,000 troubled families in the country, around 13
:39:22. > :39:29.hundreds a Leicestershire alone. That includes Julian, his partner
:39:29. > :39:34.and his children. The government says they cost the state �eight. 8
:39:34. > :39:38.billion per year. I have had a drink problem. I have
:39:38. > :39:44.had police coming round, youth offending services, social services,
:39:44. > :39:49.the council. There was always somebody on the phone. I could have
:39:49. > :39:52.lost my children and there was no way out for me.
:39:52. > :39:56.Now the government wants to use Social Impact Bonds to fund
:39:56. > :40:01.intensive help for parents like Julian. If they are successful and
:40:01. > :40:05.reduce long-term dependence on the state, investors get their money
:40:05. > :40:09.back and a healthy return. But they stand to lose their money if they
:40:09. > :40:14.miss their targets. The government thinks it can raise
:40:14. > :40:18.up to �40 million through Social Impact Bonds been trial Terry
:40:18. > :40:22.Leicestershire and elsewhere in the country.
:40:22. > :40:26.We wants to contact those families in a different way to the way we
:40:27. > :40:31.have done up to now. We want to help them change. We feel that
:40:31. > :40:37.public services had been to Silo it, too fragmented and have not given
:40:37. > :40:45.enough long-term support. We were to give them that longer terms of -
:40:45. > :40:48.- local longer term support. He the first social impact bond was
:40:48. > :40:53.launched over a year ago as Peterborough prison, aimed at
:40:53. > :41:00.cutting reoffending. It was a Labour Party idea but Ken Clarke
:41:00. > :41:05.has fully embraced it. Investors in the Peterborough at scheme have put
:41:05. > :41:10.�5 million into the bonds to fund his intensive rehabilitation work
:41:10. > :41:15.with 3000 prisoners. If reoffending rates drop, investors get their
:41:15. > :41:19.money back and a return of up to �8 million but first they must prove
:41:19. > :41:27.that reoffending has dropped by at least seven.
:41:27. > :41:31.5%. This is fairly uncharted territory. Week, as a funder, think
:41:31. > :41:37.it is well worth exploring this because if social impacts bonds
:41:37. > :41:39.work they do have the potential to unlock significant new sources of
:41:39. > :41:43.finance for really important public policy issues that this country
:41:44. > :41:46.faces. Although there is widespread
:41:46. > :41:51.support for Social Impact Bonds at Westminster, others are more
:41:51. > :41:56.sceptical. One shoe bring in private companies
:41:56. > :42:01.to do very complex social work, they will inevitably cream and skim
:42:01. > :42:05.and pick the easiest cases. They may also find it is much more
:42:05. > :42:09.difficult than they think and demand more money from the State
:42:09. > :42:13.for doing the work. In the end, it will end up being more expensive
:42:13. > :42:18.and the people being held will have less money spent on them.
:42:18. > :42:23.She is not the only one worried about how this will work in reality.
:42:23. > :42:29.This is a complex scheme. We are not too sure, at the moment,
:42:29. > :42:33.whether we will find the savings we needs to pay back the Social Impact
:42:33. > :42:39.Bonds Investment. Back at home in Melton Mowbray, it
:42:39. > :42:41.was not private money that transforms Julian's life but a
:42:41. > :42:46.publicly funded local authority projects.
:42:46. > :42:54.Who families need help. Families like mine was need help. Lottery
:42:54. > :43:01.winners, businesses, anything. Anyone with money. They could help
:43:01. > :43:06.and make life better for families going through hell.
:43:06. > :43:10.So will these bonds work? The chief executive of the British
:43:10. > :43:14.Association of Social Workers, Hilton Dawson, has joined us in the
:43:14. > :43:19.studio. Julian Spong said that it does not matter where the money
:43:19. > :43:22.comes from. He is absolutely right. It does not
:43:22. > :43:27.matter where the money comes from but the programmes must work and
:43:27. > :43:32.have a real effect. That is the crucial matter in this. That
:43:32. > :43:36.includes all the public provision that is made available to him and
:43:36. > :43:40.families in his situation. It started life as a Blairite idea,
:43:40. > :43:44.Chris, but is this privatising the Paul?
:43:44. > :43:48.I think there are a lot of people who have questions and you heard
:43:49. > :43:54.Polly Toynbee in the police say it is all very well to get an
:43:54. > :43:59.investment is something like a road scheme, where there is a simple
:43:59. > :44:04.investment and result. But what is the methodology for it -- the
:44:04. > :44:09.methodology for measuring the result in issues like this? We need
:44:09. > :44:15.to get the money in from resources for all sorts of reasons. We need
:44:15. > :44:19.to reduce alcoholism, reoffending, and if we can be measured and it is
:44:19. > :44:24.robust, we need to try this out. That is what the pilot scheme is
:44:24. > :44:28.all about. And Tim Robinson in that he's said he was worried about this
:44:28. > :44:32.would work in practice but he is trailing the scheme?
:44:32. > :44:37.He I think councils need to think outside the box and look at
:44:37. > :44:41.innovative ways of funding it. This is a pilot scheme and we need to
:44:41. > :44:45.evaluate it and see if it can be rolled out across the country.
:44:45. > :44:49.There are so many families who need help and I think we have to try and
:44:49. > :44:53.find a way to solve the problems and to help them have a fulfilling
:44:53. > :44:59.life. They are not getting it at the moment.
:44:59. > :45:05.Hilton Dawson, how would you set about measuring the success of the
:45:05. > :45:10.work the investors put in here? I think I would stick to a defined
:45:10. > :45:15.range of programmes, quite honestly. Here in Nottingham we have the
:45:15. > :45:21.example of Graham Allen and Sabino a great deal of the evidenced based
:45:21. > :45:25.programs that can help families make changes, and huge changes to
:45:25. > :45:32.the lives of very young children. That is the sort of programme that
:45:32. > :45:35.needs to be financed by this sort of initiative. A very clear outcome.
:45:35. > :45:40.But you need to look over many years to see that?
:45:40. > :45:45.We do need to stick with it. That has been one of the failings, quite
:45:45. > :45:51.honestly. That is why we do not see so much success. We must not throw
:45:51. > :45:55.the baby out with the bath water. A local authorities to have expertise,
:45:55. > :46:02.dedicated public servants and us a real knowledge about the best way
:46:02. > :46:08.of helping families and communities. Do not lose that in the process.
:46:08. > :46:12.Chris, it is going to be a nightmare to prove that there is a
:46:12. > :46:20.return on this? For yes, that is where I am
:46:20. > :46:26.slightly anxious. These should be areas where there should be public
:46:26. > :46:31.investment any way. Cuts will hit some of the key services like
:46:31. > :46:34.social care and crime reduction. People will be desperate there any
:46:34. > :46:39.alternative they can find but is this going to be cost-efficient?
:46:39. > :46:42.That is what people will ask. And how long will investors have to
:46:42. > :46:46.prove they have made savings to get a profit?
:46:46. > :46:51.They need to prove they had done the work and got results. It will
:46:51. > :46:56.take time. It is not a quick fix. Some families need working with for
:46:56. > :47:02.a very long time. People in prisons need a lot of help because some are
:47:02. > :47:11.illiterate and have never. To give them the skills get into work,
:47:11. > :47:17.which is an issue with families, Cup is very difficult. It will not
:47:17. > :47:22.be easy. It will not be quick. It could provide a solution and we
:47:22. > :47:27.will look at innovative ones. What about the warning the from
:47:27. > :47:33.Polly Toynbee that the government may end up bailing out investors?
:47:33. > :47:39.It is an important point and I do think it is important that we do
:47:39. > :47:45.not come for these whizz-bang ideas. If it can be measured and you can
:47:45. > :47:50.be certain of that it will deliver an outcome, fine, let us try it out.
:47:50. > :47:55.Mike own view is that there are no ways around that. Sometimes you
:47:55. > :48:00.have to prioritise public investment. It is worth trying
:48:00. > :48:04.things like this in pilot form but I would not put all my eggs in one
:48:04. > :48:07.basket. Pauline, will the government not
:48:07. > :48:12.bail-out investors if things do not work out?
:48:12. > :48:19.I think it would be very hard to bail out investors. Investors know
:48:19. > :48:24.that if you win, sometimes you do, and sometimes you lose. If they do
:48:24. > :48:27.fail, I hope that is the risk they appreciate taking. That is what
:48:27. > :48:32.comes when investing in any business.
:48:32. > :48:37.It does sound like there is a lot the risk attached to this?
:48:37. > :48:42.Yes, and there is a danger of playing safe and colluding over
:48:42. > :48:48.what need to be substantial outcomes. This is not a panacea. It
:48:48. > :48:53.is only a pilot. It cannot replace the very substantial levels of
:48:53. > :48:57.public investments which will continue. We need to have that
:48:57. > :49:01.investment in these communities. Allied to the correct programmes,
:49:01. > :49:04.this could bring some real freshness into situations and some
:49:04. > :49:09.real help to the families we have seen.
:49:09. > :49:13.It could mean a radical change to the way we so per up -- the way we
:49:13. > :49:18.approach society's problems in the future?
:49:18. > :49:22.Indeed. It is a regular criticism of welfare services that sometimes
:49:22. > :49:28.they prop up a problem situation is said are dealing with it. This
:49:28. > :49:32.could be a way forward. Now it is time for our round-up of
:49:32. > :49:38.the main political stories in the region was 60 seconds with John
:49:38. > :49:43.Hess. Communities secretary Eric Pickles
:49:43. > :49:49.claims Nottingham is now the only local authority which has failed to
:49:49. > :49:53.list all its spending on items above �500. The city's Labour
:49:53. > :49:59.leader insists it would cost more money than it is worth.
:49:59. > :50:04.With Nottingham's workplace parking levy fast approaching, Boots has
:50:04. > :50:08.announced it will pay half the cost to its workers. Experience is going
:50:08. > :50:12.the whole hog. It has agreed to pay the lot.
:50:12. > :50:18.If you want to vote in the East Midlands on whether we should stay
:50:18. > :50:23.in the EU, you will have to move to Corby. 13 constituency referenda
:50:23. > :50:30.are being organised by the Campaign Group the People's pledge.
:50:30. > :50:34.Leicestershire is considering axing three bus travel for disabled
:50:34. > :50:42.passengers before 9:30am. -- free bus travel. The council says it can
:50:42. > :50:45.no longer afford to subsidise the 8000 people who will lose out.