:01:27. > :01:31.Here in the East Midlands: Ken Clarke and Graham Allen on 70
:01:31. > :01:41.being the new 50, legal aid cuts, and how we can revive our cities.
:01:41. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :30:17.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1716 seconds
:30:17. > :30:20.Hello, I'm Marie Ashby, and my guests in the East Midlands need
:30:20. > :30:23.little introduction. Justice Secretary Ken Clarke and the Labour
:30:23. > :30:27.MP for Nottingham North, Graham Allen.
:30:27. > :30:33.I've got to start with your Oldie Award, Ken. Last week Liz Kendall
:30:33. > :30:40.said in your case 70 is obviously the new 50! Music to your ears!
:30:40. > :30:45.Yes! I would like more and more of that, if possible! I was very
:30:45. > :30:52.surprised it was so soon and my reaction was, me so young?! There
:30:52. > :30:57.is no Merit to it. You just grow older! A very good lunch on the
:30:57. > :31:03.Strand and the problem was, I was the only one doing a job. So I left
:31:03. > :31:09.all these celebrities of yesteryear having a very good afternoon's
:31:09. > :31:13.post-prandial talk! It was fine! Rather good! I must look at the
:31:13. > :31:18.magazine more often. I think they got it wrong. My money was on
:31:18. > :31:23.Dennis Skinner! He has been called a dinosaur! So you don't think it's
:31:23. > :31:28.time to write your memoirs just yet! Well, I have often stayed to
:31:28. > :31:33.avoid writing my memoirs. When I have got absolutely nothing to do
:31:33. > :31:38.and I suddenly find myself not in politics, not an MP or a minister
:31:38. > :31:45.or anything of that kind, I suppose I shall have a go. I do read
:31:45. > :31:47.memoirs. Historic ones. They are all so self-justifying. Your
:31:47. > :31:55.Rushcliffe constituency disappears at the next election, when it'll be
:31:55. > :31:59.swallowed up by the new Coalville and Newark seats. Well, there will
:31:59. > :32:03.be people like me in every walk of life. The thought of retiring has
:32:03. > :32:11.never crossed my mind but the problem is, it does cross the mind
:32:11. > :32:15.of others. You will let us know what you're up to, went to? I will.
:32:15. > :32:20.I will that my association are in good time as well. But there are
:32:20. > :32:25.separate associations to be set up first. I am at an age where I have
:32:25. > :32:28.decided I am rather nearer the event! I don't think that the
:32:29. > :32:34.Conservative Party will ever let Ken go. He is the acceptable face
:32:34. > :32:40.of the Conservatives. Red in tooth and claw! He always comes across so
:32:40. > :32:49.reasonably... Weight! We haven't started discussions yet! If --
:32:49. > :32:53.wait! But you are not going. Let's move onto an issue which is
:32:53. > :32:56.very much the Justice Secretary's brief - the Legal Aid Bill. It
:32:56. > :32:59.reached its committee stage in the House of Lords this week and it
:32:59. > :33:04.aims to cut �350 million from the �2 billion legal aid budget. How
:33:04. > :33:10.can you slash that amount without causing more hardship or injustice?
:33:10. > :33:14.We are not depriving access to any body in terms of justice. We are
:33:14. > :33:19.retaining the most generous legal aid system in the world. There is
:33:19. > :33:24.no other demographic country where the taxpayer should spend this
:33:24. > :33:28.amount of money in financing litigation or anything like it. It
:33:28. > :33:35.is actually about how many lawyers, how money expert witnesses, how
:33:35. > :33:40.many claims managers, etc, are paid by the taxpayer for resolving their
:33:40. > :33:44.battles, and we are actually asking the question, what should the
:33:44. > :33:48.taxpayer pay for? The taxpayer should pay for those brushes with
:33:48. > :33:52.the law that people who are not able to afford their own
:33:52. > :33:56.representation have when it is on vital, important matters affecting
:33:56. > :34:05.their freedoms. He is not wrong about the generous legal aid system
:34:05. > :34:11.we had in our country. Ours costs �39 per person, compared with just
:34:11. > :34:21.�5 in France and Germany. Well, Ken is so good at these wafting
:34:21. > :34:22.
:34:22. > :34:26.statements and everything flows by. Real people are being heard by
:34:26. > :34:31.these cuts. They are my constituents, people on low incomes,
:34:31. > :34:35.people on housing, landlord and tenant issues, people with problems
:34:35. > :34:39.with debt. You need to get your advice early and this is the
:34:39. > :34:43.strange thing. And Ken knows this, he is a former Chancellor of the
:34:43. > :34:47.Exchequer. If you can help people really early on, you don't pay
:34:47. > :34:52.loads and loads of money downstream when they have got to go through
:34:52. > :34:56.much more expensive litigation or they need extra healthcare. You are
:34:56. > :34:59.basically saying those who need help but will not get it? They
:34:59. > :35:06.don't lead litigation for most of those things being talked about.
:35:06. > :35:12.For debt, the Government puts money into debt advice of various kinds.
:35:12. > :35:16.It puts money into the Citizens Advice Bureau. Often, it is more
:35:16. > :35:20.general advice they require. And in Nottingham, they are possibly going
:35:20. > :35:25.to have to close the Nottingham or send. That does affect those things
:35:26. > :35:31.talked about. People pop into those things needing lawyers and they get
:35:31. > :35:37.great advice. They get advice from relatively cheap means and they can
:35:37. > :35:41.access extra legal advice if they then needed. Ken, your own
:35:41. > :35:46.department says there of 45,000 fewer cases where Bobby Ball would
:35:46. > :35:51.be represented? We are putting that money into not-for-profit general
:35:51. > :35:57.advice centres, including the Law centres. That is not really the
:35:57. > :36:02.case, Ken... What are you saying to George Osborne? I knew cutting your
:36:02. > :36:07.budget or not? This is about lawyer's... I am cutting 350
:36:07. > :36:12.million and it should be more. This is the best we can do. We have a
:36:12. > :36:16.staggering bill, as has already been said. All the common law
:36:16. > :36:24.countries are the same. Nobody dreams paying lawyers out of can --
:36:24. > :36:30.the amount of taxation that we do. One area we will cut on his
:36:30. > :36:34.criminal negligence. The health service is in crisis. The billions
:36:34. > :36:38.of pounds it is having to make provision as claims managers
:36:38. > :36:42.advertise on buses to get people to bring claims at enormous expense
:36:42. > :36:46.and bring actions against the health authorities and those have
:36:46. > :36:50.to be settled and insured against the costs and it comes out of their
:36:50. > :36:54.budget. We can see why the government is determined to take
:36:54. > :37:00.action on this because you get people appealing and appealing and
:37:00. > :37:04.appealing? I don't think you do. People hate lawyers like they hate
:37:04. > :37:10.MPs but they like their own lawyer. Their own lawyer helps them when
:37:10. > :37:12.they are desperate and often people come to me as a final Court of
:37:12. > :37:19.Appeal and they are really desperate. Often because they are
:37:19. > :37:23.not able to access the legal system as it stands. It is a closed club
:37:23. > :37:27.as it stands, so taking away legal aid will make it much worse for
:37:27. > :37:33.those people, particularly on low incomes. But what about defending
:37:33. > :37:38.themselves? They come to me and they come to Graham in surgeries.
:37:38. > :37:44.They need help of social security claims and so on. We help them and
:37:44. > :37:48.we have staff that help them - case workers. Not on the scale people
:37:48. > :37:53.think but they help sort them out. Or they go to the Citizens Advice
:37:53. > :37:57.Bureau. Some go to a solicitor who gives exactly the same advice as we
:37:57. > :38:03.do. With great respect, the solicitors icy don't know as much
:38:03. > :38:09.about the social security system as we do or of workers, and they send
:38:09. > :38:19.a large bill have for a fee - legal aid. There will be some who
:38:19. > :38:21.
:38:21. > :38:24.desperately need this service to one no longer able to access it.
:38:24. > :38:27.Next, this week's unemployment figures showed 188,000 people in
:38:27. > :38:30.our region are now out of work. But one of our cities isn't waiting for
:38:30. > :38:33.the Chancellor to do more to boost the economy. It's ploughing more
:38:33. > :38:35.than �100 million into schemes, which it's hoped will create
:38:35. > :38:37.thousands of jobs, as Chris Doidge reports.
:38:37. > :38:39.Derby, like anywhere, has seen a few changes over the years. Almost
:38:39. > :38:43.nothing in the picture survives. But with the economic gloom hitting
:38:43. > :38:49.the City particularly hard in 2011, the council in trying to intervene
:38:49. > :38:55.in 2012. To give the city a kick- start. This is the council's
:38:55. > :39:01.headquarters. 500 staff moved out last year. By Christmas, 2000 will
:39:01. > :39:05.be able to move back in. We are now standing in the middle of what will
:39:05. > :39:08.be the council chamber. They were sceptical at first him what we were
:39:08. > :39:13.trying to do but I think they are beginning to understand that by
:39:13. > :39:18.investing in this building, bringing in 2000 staff instead of
:39:19. > :39:23.500, is the best use of resources. The council also showed me the
:39:23. > :39:27.first fruit from the city's innovative regeneration fund. A �10
:39:28. > :39:32.million pot designed to nudge businesses into creating jobs.
:39:32. > :39:36.is an enormous, iconic scheme for the City and the first office
:39:36. > :39:43.development out of the ground for 30 years. But its council money
:39:43. > :39:47.that has convinced the site's developers to get cracking. I guess
:39:47. > :39:52.at a time when there are sensitive pressures on budgets, it is
:39:52. > :39:56.difficult to justify spending money on this instead of day care and
:39:56. > :40:00.home care centres? I think what local of bodies have got to do is
:40:00. > :40:03.take a wide approach to what they're doing and if we
:40:03. > :40:07.concentrated on the very narrow aspect of the day-to-day aspect, we
:40:08. > :40:14.would lose sight of the wider picture, which is making the City
:40:14. > :40:18.for up -- thrive. And then this car-park. Perhaps the most
:40:18. > :40:23.ambitious part of the plan. It is set to become a Velodrome with his
:40:23. > :40:27.sporting and musical ambitions. So how does the council judged --
:40:27. > :40:33.justified that added time of austerity? You are right, it is a
:40:33. > :40:39.tricky balancing act. But we have got to do these things to make
:40:39. > :40:41.Derby a good place to live and work. The Investment has cross-party
:40:41. > :40:45.support but the refurbishments have met with scepticism from the
:40:45. > :40:50.opposition. We think there are better things to spend money on
:40:50. > :40:54.that and that we should be spending money on council housing. We have
:40:54. > :40:59.7,000 on a waiting lists. But we do support the swimming pool and we
:40:59. > :41:03.think there is a need to do that. We would support it. Doing up this
:41:03. > :41:06.building will cost taxpayers �90 million in mortgage payments over
:41:06. > :41:11.the coming decades. It is a decision made around the same time
:41:11. > :41:14.as the spending cuts began. Some argue this and other big project in
:41:14. > :41:18.Derby are strange things to be doing at a time of austerity and
:41:18. > :41:24.those who stand to benefit the most say the changes can't come soon
:41:24. > :41:29.enough. The last two years, I have seen a change in the attitudes and
:41:29. > :41:32.be far more positive role played by the authorities are encouraging
:41:32. > :41:36.activity and regeneration. I think that is a good thing and everybody
:41:36. > :41:41.welcomes it with open arms. council says the project they have
:41:41. > :41:45.started on up on budget, on time and likely to overbore form. But
:41:45. > :41:50.this Duration of politicians could be long gone by the time their
:41:50. > :41:53.Grand Designs can be properly judged. -- this generation.
:41:53. > :42:01.Graham Allen, the message from Derby is clear. Whatever party you
:42:01. > :42:05.belong to, you can make things happen locally. It's not just Derby.
:42:05. > :42:13.Yes. I wrote a little piece about giving local government much more
:42:13. > :42:18.freedom. The answer to our economic problems is not some super brain in
:42:18. > :42:23.Whitehall telling us what to do. It is local projects like this. We
:42:23. > :42:30.have seen a loss of innovation in shopping and retell and our towns
:42:30. > :42:34.and cities across the East Midlands, if we let them loose and freer, as
:42:34. > :42:39.every Western democracy is, to run their own affairs, I think we will
:42:39. > :42:44.find out there is so much creativity out there. I like the
:42:44. > :42:49.spirit of the Derby operation and the leaders turning their energy
:42:49. > :42:53.into how to help businesses and regenerate the economy. I would
:42:53. > :42:59.like to know more about Derby's ballot sheet. And have not seen the
:42:59. > :43:04.business plan and I don't know the effect on the overall situation.
:43:04. > :43:08.They have had �10 million from reserves. Yes, but we have to get
:43:08. > :43:11.something back from that. I presume they have worked out how the
:43:12. > :43:16.Velodrome will pay and how the money will be saved by closing down
:43:17. > :43:20.these satellite office blocks. And also they are not put in too many
:43:20. > :43:24.officials in their great new headquarters. I don't want to sound
:43:24. > :43:29.churlish because they have a great businessman supporting them. But
:43:29. > :43:33.the idea that any big prestige project is a good thing to be seen
:43:33. > :43:37.doing can be very short term. And the history of this country is
:43:37. > :43:45.littered with local authorities investing sometimes him very, very
:43:45. > :43:50.ill-advised things. -- investing in. I would love to see a partnership
:43:50. > :43:55.between entrepreneurs and business leaders, with those who run
:43:55. > :43:59.businesses, not just property developers. Businessmen as well.
:44:00. > :44:03.we were to listen to central government of all colours, they
:44:03. > :44:08.don't exactly have the best record of economic prudence over many
:44:08. > :44:12.decades. In the local area, you find you have counsellors, leaders,
:44:12. > :44:17.mayors, who are very much in touch and sensitive to what they can do
:44:17. > :44:20.locally and need to win over their electorate. I would like to see our
:44:20. > :44:25.cities saying whether they would like to raise revenue in different
:44:25. > :44:30.ways. They would have to explain it very carefully that if you want to
:44:30. > :44:37.run a tax of any sort or a money- raising thing, a bond issue, let
:44:37. > :44:42.them have that freedom. And I am afraid we have had localism and the
:44:42. > :44:46.rhetoric of that, but what they're saying now is that let's define
:44:46. > :44:53.local government as a separate entity so that it can get on with
:44:53. > :44:59.life rather than Mr Pickles deciding how many things can happen.
:44:59. > :45:04.We are cautious. There is a Localism Bill and we have greatly
:45:04. > :45:08.extend the powers councils have to do things. Instinctively, I find
:45:08. > :45:13.this attractive. I am probably scarred by my recollection of the
:45:13. > :45:18.disastrous times we used to have with Liverpool and Moseley and
:45:18. > :45:23.Lambeth and those corrupt sort of bankrupt oligarchies that we used
:45:23. > :45:27.to have. That was in the 1980s. We need protection against that. You
:45:27. > :45:33.let people do this and I have no reason whatever to doubt that the
:45:33. > :45:36.people in Derby know what they are doing. Every local authority can do
:45:36. > :45:41.whatever it likes. You have some City boss you will reduce the play
:45:41. > :45:47.is... They are a conservative Lib Dem coalition, which is rather
:45:47. > :45:52.familiar! -- Conservative-Lib Dem coalition. They are spending more
:45:52. > :46:01.to get the country growing. Sheffield went bankrupt in the
:46:01. > :46:08.1980s by trying to do its own thing. One at a time, gentlemen!
:46:08. > :46:13.mistake an individual Prime Minister makes affect everybody.
:46:13. > :46:18.Whereas if you have ideas out there, people are bright enough and we can
:46:18. > :46:23.learn from each other. You don't have to have one size fits all. And
:46:23. > :46:27.if you listen to what is going on in other places, you will have much
:46:27. > :46:32.better economic development. Budget is only a few weeks away.
:46:32. > :46:36.What should be done to create jobs? I think George Osborne would do us
:46:36. > :46:40.a great favour if he were to allow local authorities and local people
:46:40. > :46:47.to Willette who they felt almost appropriate in their areas and let
:46:47. > :46:54.them get on. -- local people to elect. George Osborne knows all the
:46:54. > :46:58.answers! I don't think he was saying that! A lot of people are
:46:58. > :47:02.going in for a vast prestige project. They have got to try to do
:47:02. > :47:07.something to help investors and businessmen in small and medium-
:47:07. > :47:11.size enterprises in particular create jobs and develop their ideas
:47:11. > :47:20.and for goods and services to be marketed. I don't think any
:47:20. > :47:27.politicians anywhere think that huge glossy project will help.
:47:27. > :47:37.hear you! Time for a round-up of our other political stories in the
:47:37. > :47:41.
:47:41. > :47:47.Spot the mistake. No! East Midlands MP did. At Strasbourg, he was
:47:47. > :47:52.incensed to discover if the Union Jack flying upside-down! After 33
:47:52. > :47:58.years, we should by now have learned which way up to hang the
:47:58. > :48:08.British flag! Thank you! And the European Union is being accused of
:48:08. > :48:09.
:48:09. > :48:15.pulling the wool over from as' eyes. They have to tag all the sheep.
:48:15. > :48:19.They say doing this to over one million in a region is unrealistic.
:48:19. > :48:26.And it has been said a Home Office should pay towards the �1 million
:48:26. > :48:30.it cost to police this month's EDL march in Leicester. They are going
:48:30. > :48:40.to court to press their case. And if you're wondering who was
:48:40. > :48:45.responsible for the upside-down flag? I am blame it on the French.
:48:45. > :48:51.I am glad we flag that up for you. But more seriously, should the
:48:51. > :49:00.Government stump up some money for the EDL protests? There are rules
:49:00. > :49:04.about it. Anything that costs the local police service quite a bit of
:49:04. > :49:10.money, there will be other disorders and demonstrations.
:49:10. > :49:14.Exporting events. These things just happen. You cannot say it comes as
:49:14. > :49:17.a surprise. I will leave it to the Home Office to argue with Leicester
:49:17. > :49:25.as to whether this crosses the threshold where you get a national
:49:26. > :49:32.contribution. If the police have had two EDL marches in the last two
:49:32. > :49:36.years. It is money they could spend on police officers. If it is
:49:36. > :49:44.exceptional, I am sure the Home Office will pay. There are very
:49:44. > :49:52.strict rules... Should this change? I think we should send the bill to
:49:52. > :49:55.EDL and then they might crawl back under the stone they came from!
:49:55. > :50:00.it looks like they won't get any government help. Should that
:50:00. > :50:04.change? It just means the taxpayer pays more through central