:01:20. > :01:27.A Lib Dem lord and a troublesome And our panel of bright young
:01:27. > :01:32.things is here to analyse British politics and the week ahead.
:01:32. > :01:36.A private security firm is to run one of our police stations. It is a
:01:36. > :01:46.step too far? And the health trusts paying pregnant mums to stop
:01:46. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :35:33.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2027 seconds
:35:33. > :35:36.Hello, I'm Marie Ashby and our guests in the East Midlands this
:35:36. > :35:39.week are Vernon Coaker, the Labour MP for Gedling, and the
:35:39. > :35:43.Conservative MP for Amber Valley, Nigel Mills.
:35:43. > :35:47.Coming up: The health trust paying pregnant mums to stop smoking. They
:35:47. > :35:50.stand to get vouchers worth up to �700. Could it save us a packet,
:35:50. > :35:54.too? And counting sheep for the EU - the
:35:54. > :35:58.farmers who insist they're being fleeced.
:35:58. > :36:02.First, we're getting used to services being privatised. But the
:36:02. > :36:05.police? This week the private security firm G4S signed a deal to
:36:05. > :36:08.build and run a police station near Lincoln. What's more, 500 civilian
:36:08. > :36:11.workers at Lincolnshire Police will transfer to the company, and it'll
:36:11. > :36:17.take over responsibility for a number of services. For instance,
:36:18. > :36:20.it'll be involved in issuing firearms licences.
:36:20. > :36:23.Vernon Coaker, you were a Home Office minister with responsibility
:36:23. > :36:30.for policing in the last government. Do you have a problem with a
:36:30. > :36:35.private company running police services?
:36:36. > :36:40.I think there are real concerns about what is happening. The first
:36:40. > :36:44.point is that they are pushed into this by the cuts to the Budget. You
:36:44. > :36:50.only have to look at what is happening in Lincolnshire with the
:36:50. > :36:56.loss of police officers already. Privatisation is not really to be
:36:56. > :37:01.effective, but to save money. GS4 will want to make a profit. Do we
:37:01. > :37:06.want our policing to be run for a profit? But we are told it could
:37:06. > :37:09.save Lincolnshire Police �20 million. That is a big saving.
:37:09. > :37:16.put the money back into the police. It will not be put back into
:37:16. > :37:22.frontline police officers. It will not be there to retain staff. The
:37:22. > :37:29.money is taken out of the budget, so the savings had to be made by
:37:29. > :37:33.Lincolnshire Police. This is about efficiency and profit. Nigel Mills,
:37:33. > :37:41.surely people have a right to be concerned that GS4 will be involved
:37:41. > :37:45.in issuing firearms certificates? I don't think issuing certificates
:37:45. > :37:50.is the thing most people worry about when they think about what
:37:50. > :37:55.the police are doing. This is an interesting innovation. It allows
:37:55. > :37:58.more officers out on the beat. That should be a positive step. It will
:37:58. > :38:02.be interesting to see how successful it is.
:38:02. > :38:07.But remember that this is a company which fitted a tag to an offender's
:38:07. > :38:12.false leg last year. Now we are talking about handing over the
:38:12. > :38:18.policing in Lincolnshire! They are taking over some of the
:38:18. > :38:22.back office staff. You're not going to have GS4's operas as Aberdeen
:38:22. > :38:29.police work. We can find mistakes in private companies and police
:38:29. > :38:37.forces. This is a welcome step. We all know there's Ltd money out
:38:37. > :38:44.there. It is not an isolated case, though.
:38:44. > :38:47.When the BBC's inside-out programme investigated GS4, they discover a
:38:47. > :38:51.catalogue of serious failures, including murderers and paedophiles
:38:51. > :38:57.being unmonitored for weeks at a time.
:38:57. > :39:01.It is not for me to defend GS4. you are happy for this to happen?
:39:01. > :39:05.I'm sure the police will have done proper checks to make sure that
:39:05. > :39:09.they are fully competent to do the work. We are talking about back
:39:09. > :39:15.office functions, not have been able out on the streets on Friday
:39:15. > :39:18.night. I would not think anybody watching this programme would think
:39:18. > :39:22.that it is a simple back-office function as to who has a firearms
:39:22. > :39:28.licence or certificate. They think that would be a pretty basic part
:39:28. > :39:33.of policing, who has a gun. To actually outsource that to a
:39:33. > :39:37.private company, people would have very real concerns. The other thing
:39:37. > :39:42.is this is a ten-year contract. What are the safeguards for the
:39:42. > :39:49.public if it goes wrong? The Home Office will get it in the neck,
:39:49. > :39:54.presumably. What is in the contract? It is �10 million. What
:39:54. > :39:58.happens with the custody suite if it does not work? What does happen?
:39:59. > :40:02.What would happen in this instance? I would hope that we have learnt
:40:02. > :40:06.the lessons of the previous government, locking us into
:40:06. > :40:13.excessive cost that is not appropriate. I hope the lessons
:40:13. > :40:19.have been learned. We are doing a full review of that. So you just
:40:19. > :40:24.hope it is going to be OK? We have to trust the people involved.
:40:24. > :40:29.this is for policing. This is a fundamental part of the security of
:40:29. > :40:33.our communities. It is not a simple, with due respect, a bit of a
:40:33. > :40:37.village egg-and-spoon race. This is fundamental policing of our
:40:37. > :40:45.communities! It is not a matter of hope, it should be a matter of
:40:45. > :40:51.certainty. We are engaging with private companies to give value,
:40:51. > :40:54.and not getting locked into that good things.
:40:54. > :40:57.-- difficult things. Next, we can't force pregnant women
:40:57. > :41:00.to stop smoking, but it's clearly in their babies' interests that
:41:00. > :41:03.they give up. Now Derbyshire NHS is running a pilot scheme under which
:41:03. > :41:07.mums are being given shopping vouchers if they stop. The vouchers
:41:07. > :41:10.could be worth up to �700 - but they'll only be paid out if mums
:41:10. > :41:13.can prove they've quit. This device measures the carbon in their bodies.
:41:13. > :41:16.We've been asking people in Nottingham if they think it's an
:41:17. > :41:21.idea that should be introduced nationally.
:41:21. > :41:24.I don't think they should pay them. It is their responsibility. That is
:41:24. > :41:29.the harm they are doing to their child. They have to take full
:41:29. > :41:32.responsibility. It should go on for like the first
:41:32. > :41:36.two months, and let them do it themselves after that.
:41:36. > :41:40.incentive to stop smoking would be good. But as long as it is
:41:40. > :41:46.foolproof and they can't use the money on cigarettes anyway.
:41:46. > :41:49.In pregnancy it is hard to quit smoking, as I have found myself. A
:41:49. > :41:55.Smoking Room helped me to quit. They gave me an incentive and
:41:55. > :41:59.support, but no finer for support. It could have helped. It is not a
:41:59. > :42:02.bad idea. If you are responsible, being pregnant should be enough
:42:02. > :42:05.leverage to make sure you protect your own health and that of your
:42:05. > :42:09.baby. We have been joined by Julie
:42:09. > :42:14.Greenwood, who heads the stop smoking team for the NHS in
:42:14. > :42:16.Nottingham. First, some strong feelings that pregnant mothers
:42:16. > :42:22.should take responsibility for their own actions. Some people
:42:22. > :42:30.believe they should done in a bribe to give up smoking.
:42:31. > :42:35.-- they should not need a bribe. There are concerns. There are a
:42:35. > :42:40.number of premature deaths and associated health problems if the
:42:40. > :42:43.boss Mick and pregnancy. This is a pilot. I have concerns about
:42:43. > :42:46.escaping their responsibility. One of the ways to make it more
:42:46. > :42:51.acceptable would be to say if people are going to receive
:42:51. > :42:57.vouchers, they should not just be in cash but should be returned, say,
:42:57. > :43:00.for baby clothes or equipment. If you are pregnant, shouldn't that
:43:00. > :43:04.be incentive enough? I think we would all like to
:43:04. > :43:07.believe that if somebody is pregnant, they are going to be so
:43:07. > :43:13.concerned about their baby that they don't want to risk smoking and
:43:13. > :43:16.harming themselves and the baby. I'd think the idea of rewarding
:43:16. > :43:20.someone for something they should not be doing is pretty awful. I'm
:43:20. > :43:24.not sure how many people would want to go out to pay tax to pay
:43:24. > :43:29.somebody not to do something they should not be doing.
:43:29. > :43:34.Let's ask Julie. Made people will find it hard to believe that it is
:43:34. > :43:38.hard to stop smoking. -- many people.
:43:39. > :43:43.It is incredibly difficult. I have got personal experience of
:43:43. > :43:45.supporting women who are trying to stop smoking. It is only a small
:43:45. > :43:50.portion of women who continue to smoke through pregnancy. But they
:43:50. > :43:54.tend to be women from the most deprived areas. They are highly
:43:54. > :43:57.addictive, and they have got lots of stress and chaos in their lives.
:43:57. > :44:01.Although one could assume that when a woman becomes pregnant, she can
:44:01. > :44:05.stop smoking, it is actually very difficult.
:44:05. > :44:08.We heard also in those brief clips from one young woman who said that
:44:09. > :44:12.vouchers might have actually helped her. Do you personally think they
:44:12. > :44:16.are a good idea? We don't use them in Nottingham
:44:16. > :44:20.city. But we have looked at the evaluation of other services that
:44:20. > :44:26.have used them. If we can encourage women, if this is going to work,
:44:26. > :44:30.then maybe I would be happy to look at the findings and the evaluation
:44:30. > :44:35.of the Derbyshire project to see if it can help. Do you have any
:44:35. > :44:40.reservations? When you look at smoking in pregnancy, it impacts so
:44:40. > :44:45.much on the help of mother and baby. Also, later in life, when you look
:44:45. > :44:50.at the cost to the NHS, it casts around �65 million per year to
:44:50. > :44:54.treat a woman with pregnancy complications per year. Maybe �24
:44:54. > :45:00.million per year is the cost to the infant as well.
:45:00. > :45:05.Isn't this what it is all about, Vernon Coaker? The long-term cost?
:45:05. > :45:09.It is controversial, this. On the one hand, shouldn't people take
:45:09. > :45:15.responsibility for their own health and their own unborn child?
:45:15. > :45:18.Alongside that, people are also concerned about the fact that
:45:18. > :45:22.linked to smoking in pregnancy is a lot of premature birth and so on.
:45:22. > :45:27.People worry about that as well. It is trying to navigate your way
:45:27. > :45:33.through that we changes behaviour. The pilot scheme is about vouchers.
:45:33. > :45:37.All I am saying is that I agree with Nigel, and would get concerned
:45:37. > :45:43.about paying tax for bad behaviour. But isn't it about trying to
:45:43. > :45:47.prevent premature death with unborn babies? Isn't one of the ways to do
:45:47. > :45:57.that to linger vouchers do something that would benefit the
:45:57. > :46:02.child was much if America is anything to go by, the vouchers --
:46:02. > :46:08.would benefit the child. If America is anything to go by,
:46:08. > :46:12.the vouchers would work. On this occasion, I think if giving
:46:12. > :46:18.up smoking is bad heart, and I'm sure it is, I'm not sure that a
:46:18. > :46:23.small voucher is going to help. If you stop smoking, you have got a
:46:23. > :46:25.lot of money saved anyway. That is your incentive. Is a small Dutch
:46:25. > :46:31.are going to make a large difference?
:46:31. > :46:35.If this works, though, surely there will be pressure on the rest of the
:46:35. > :46:41.country to introduce it? Be Royal College of Midwives say they
:46:41. > :46:45.support it. That is the point. It has a pilot.
:46:45. > :46:49.What I am saying is, which is the way to make it more acceptable
:46:49. > :46:52.rather than just people being rewarded for what others see as the
:46:52. > :46:56.right thing? Where does this end, though? If we
:46:56. > :47:00.start to give vouchers to women to persuade him to stop smoking during
:47:00. > :47:07.pregnancy, do we have to dip into alcoholics or obese people to stop
:47:07. > :47:12.eating? -- would give them too. The issue here is we have got two
:47:12. > :47:16.people involved, the mother and the baby. That impacts longer into
:47:16. > :47:21.their lives because it can increase the risk of not just a short-term
:47:21. > :47:24.risk but could increase the risk of cancer and heart disease. Really
:47:24. > :47:28.got to think about those, haven't we. Thank you very much.
:47:28. > :47:31.Now, when we heard about this last week, we found it hard to believe.
:47:31. > :47:34.The EU is warning farmers that it'll fine them unless they tag all
:47:34. > :47:39.their sheep. With more than a million in our region, that's some
:47:39. > :47:42.ask, as our political editor John Hess has been finding out.
:47:42. > :47:48.We are driving to one of the highest and remotest areas of
:47:48. > :47:53.England. Peter Atkin is going to count his sheep. How many have you
:47:53. > :47:59.got, Peter? 600 appear on this moor. And where
:47:59. > :48:03.do they end up? On the horizon. In the Peak District, it is not
:48:03. > :48:10.just the elements that can make hill farming a struggle. A chill
:48:10. > :48:14.wind has Broadmayne -- has come in from Europe, making sure that all
:48:14. > :48:19.sheep are compelled to be tagged. If not, the farmer gets a fine. The
:48:19. > :48:25.consequences? Financial loss on something that is
:48:25. > :48:31.basically only justifiable anyway. How do you feel about that?
:48:31. > :48:36.Rather better, really. They want us to use a system that we know is
:48:36. > :48:43.flawed. -- rather bitter. This is what the fuss is all about.
:48:43. > :48:47.It is an allegory tag that the EU and Defra what on every sheep. --
:48:47. > :48:52.electronic tag. Stephen wainwright is a younger
:48:52. > :48:57.generation farmer. He says the new rules fail to take into account the
:48:58. > :49:04.unique nature of the Peak District. When you go gathering to find your
:49:04. > :49:09.sheep, I do with my dad and my best friends, and we set off for 7.5
:49:09. > :49:14.hours. We go behind rocks and galleys, and even if they gave you
:49:14. > :49:21.a week's notice, you would not get everyone. It is just opened more
:49:21. > :49:27.land. You can go about 7, 8, 9 miles in that direction without
:49:27. > :49:32.seeing a fence. It is market day in Bakewell. This
:49:32. > :49:35.is where many of Derbyshire's 370,000 sheep are sold and bought.
:49:35. > :49:43.It was the outbreak of foot-and- mouth disease more than 10 years
:49:43. > :49:49.ago that prompted the EU and Defra to consider electronic tagging to
:49:49. > :49:55.track and soars each animal. Newborn lambs now have to be tagged.
:49:55. > :50:00.It will be the turn of older sheep in two years. All 8 million of them.
:50:00. > :50:08.The EU embarked on a programme to bring in electronic identification
:50:08. > :50:14.of sheep using a chip inside the tags. That has proved more
:50:14. > :50:19.difficult to develop than was perhaps originally expected.
:50:19. > :50:22.The sheep then come to market to be auctioned. Today in Bakewell the
:50:22. > :50:26.prices are strong. The farmers have cause to smile.
:50:26. > :50:30.It is good business for sheep farmers. Britain is now the biggest
:50:30. > :50:34.exporter in Europe. But the issue, farmers say, could put all this at
:50:34. > :50:40.risk. It is unfair to expect people to
:50:40. > :50:46.jump through hoops when the system that they want to use is not 100%
:50:46. > :50:50.perfect. One solution is to give the sheep farmers some leeway.
:50:50. > :50:55.Defra is sympathetic but fears it could end up facing fines of up to
:50:55. > :50:58.�10 million from the EU if it does not comply. In a statement, Defra
:50:58. > :51:06.admits that at the moment there seems to be no effective way around
:51:06. > :51:13.Farming ministers still have a compromise can be reached with the
:51:13. > :51:19.EU that -- but they could be some long nights ahead.
:51:19. > :51:23.There goes the EU all over dip -- all over again! Is it Operation
:51:23. > :51:30.overkill? That is just what I was about to
:51:30. > :51:36.say. It looks like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. We are trying to
:51:36. > :51:42.fix a problem from a decade ago. This is not needed. It is not part
:51:42. > :51:47.of its time. It is a step too far. And we heard the farmer say they
:51:47. > :51:52.are struggling as it is to make a farm living. This could push people
:51:52. > :51:58.to the limit? Clearly, hill farmers watching this
:51:58. > :52:02.and others will feel for them. I hope that common sense prevailed,
:52:02. > :52:07.but I think you saw from the shots how ridiculous it is to believe
:52:07. > :52:14.that you can get every single sheep or lamb or whatever on that huge
:52:14. > :52:18.expanse... I'm not an expert in sheep farming, but surely there's a
:52:18. > :52:22.better way of finding to deal with the issues this is dealing with.
:52:23. > :52:31.One of the best ways is listening to what the hill farmers are saying.
:52:31. > :52:34.Maybe, Natal, the EU Commissioner to come to see for himself.
:52:35. > :52:41.There does seem to be a special case in that part of Derbyshire.
:52:41. > :52:47.You do not have sheep in a pen. Having to find all of them, making
:52:47. > :52:50.sure if they are attacked, maybe if there's some margin for error, that
:52:50. > :52:58.the take the edge of it. -- if they are tags.
:52:58. > :53:02.The Defra I effectively washing their hands of this. Is that
:53:02. > :53:06.reasonable, for him to say OK, we could it a fine, let's take this no
:53:06. > :53:10.further? You have to fight your corner on
:53:10. > :53:14.these things and get it changed. Through listening to farmers and
:53:14. > :53:19.through Nigel and myself, other MPs, we have had lots of regulation
:53:19. > :53:23.change, and with this implementation date being push back
:53:23. > :53:30.to 2014, there has been some change already. The government needs to
:53:30. > :53:36.continue to fight its corner. What can be done next, then, Nigel?
:53:36. > :53:43.It is fair to say that Defra had been working party get this measure
:53:43. > :53:48.softened. There has been some success. I think we can all urge
:53:48. > :53:53.ministers to keep the pressure up and find a solution that is less
:53:53. > :53:59.painful for farmers and gives them a decent chance of making a living
:53:59. > :54:02.in a hard business. Thank you very much to both of you.
:54:02. > :54:12.Time now for our regular round-up of some of the other political
:54:12. > :54:16.
:54:16. > :54:21.stories in the East Midlands in As fears grow over the extent of
:54:21. > :54:25.President Ahmadinejad's nuclear programme, Patrick Mercer, a former
:54:25. > :54:30.army commander, has joined those warning of the dangers of using
:54:30. > :54:34.force against Iran. We cannot afford any ill judged military
:54:34. > :54:42.action of. Earlier this month we highlighted
:54:42. > :54:45.concerns over the decision to devalue educational on vacations.
:54:45. > :54:50.Now, a Derby recruit the company is warning it will exacerbate the
:54:50. > :54:53.skill shortage. Derbyshire County Council is to spend �7 million on
:54:53. > :54:58.improving broadband services, matching the amount the government
:54:58. > :55:02.has agreed to contribute. Big Brother watched says Leicester
:55:02. > :55:06.and Nottingham have more CCTV cameras than any other city in the
:55:06. > :55:11.UK. Leicester says that almost half of theirs are in schools.
:55:11. > :55:16.Nottingham stressed that many of theirs play an important role in