:01:38. > :01:42.protest over Government plans to reform their industry.
:01:42. > :01:52.Also disappearing, our high street shops. Up to a third could go. Do
:01:52. > :01:52.
:01:52. > :37:33.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2141 seconds
:37:33. > :37:35.Hello, I'm Marie Ashby. My guests this week, the Conservative MP for
:37:35. > :37:41.Amber Valley, Nigel Mills, and Labour's Chesterfield MP, Toby
:37:41. > :37:46.Perkins. The system has worked well for 800 years and it will simply
:37:46. > :37:56.disappear. Also disappearing, our high street shops. Do you want them
:37:56. > :37:59.
:37:59. > :38:03.to stay? You get personal service. Hello. My guests this morning, the
:38:03. > :38:10.Conservative MP for Amber Valley, Nigel Mills, and Labour's
:38:10. > :38:13.Chesterfield MP, Toby Perkins. First, the Government is throwing a
:38:13. > :38:17.lifeline to struggling pubs. David Cameron says he's setting up a fund
:38:17. > :38:22.of up to �250 million to help local communities take over pubs and even
:38:22. > :38:26.village halls. It is always a popular measure, to help pubs. 26 of
:38:27. > :38:33.them are closing every week. We have had our fair share of those closures
:38:33. > :38:39.in the East Midlands. Is this just a gimmick? I think it will work. I
:38:39. > :38:43.have had a view expressions of interest where a pub has closed and
:38:43. > :38:49.the community work together to get it reopened. 250 million is a lot of
:38:50. > :38:56.money. I think it is something on the back of a cut in beer duty that
:38:56. > :39:04.the Chancellor gave out. You have been campaigning to save pubs, Toby
:39:04. > :39:09.Perkins. Will this help? It is a drop in the ocean. It is 250 million
:39:09. > :39:15.over ten years. It might make a difference around small village
:39:15. > :39:22.pubs. But there are far more fundamental things that need to be
:39:22. > :39:28.done. One is to try to change the huge disparity between the costs of
:39:28. > :39:31.off-licence sales and pub sales. The cost of beer is really significant.
:39:31. > :39:35.At the moment we have got a consultation that the government are
:39:35. > :39:43.dragging their feet on with the offer of a mandatory rightful
:39:43. > :39:53.tenants to be free of tie. That could make a significant difference.
:39:53. > :39:57.
:39:57. > :40:00.I am hoping the Government do that. But McRae -- Now, it's not very
:40:00. > :40:03.often lawyers agree on anything, but they all seem to agree that the
:40:03. > :40:05.Government's plans for a reform of the criminal judicial system are a
:40:05. > :40:08.disastrous idea. The Government has just finished a
:40:08. > :40:11.consultation on its plans which could mean the number of criminal
:40:11. > :40:21.law firms falls from 1,200 to 400. Wesley Mallin's been examining the
:40:21. > :40:22.
:40:22. > :40:25.evidence. Lawyers said this latest reform amounts to an attack on the
:40:25. > :40:30.very foundation of the English system. The government insists there
:40:30. > :40:34.are sorrow over the top. -- their arguments.
:40:34. > :40:37.This old courtroom is now a museum as part of Nottingham's Galleries of
:40:37. > :40:40.Justice. And some of the other features of legal life could soon be
:40:40. > :40:42.consigned to history too. Lawyers, not a naturally militant bunch, are
:40:43. > :40:46.not impressed with the reforms and have been protesting in Leicester
:40:46. > :40:53.this week, saying hundreds of law firms will disappear. But how much
:40:53. > :40:56.sympathy are they expecting? ordinary member of the public, if
:40:56. > :41:01.you ask him to sympathise with a lawyer, he had some problems with
:41:01. > :41:06.that. We all know the jokes about lawyers. What I have been trying to
:41:06. > :41:10.tell people is that we are paid rates slightly less than you would
:41:10. > :41:15.pay to have your car serviced in a non-franchised garage. My young
:41:15. > :41:18.lawyers are not earning any kind of money at all. They do not go into
:41:18. > :41:20.the business to make money. Government is proposing to cut �220
:41:20. > :41:23.million from the legal aid budget, introducing competitive tendering
:41:23. > :41:26.for legal aid contracts and ending the defendant's right to choose a
:41:26. > :41:36.solicitor, appointing one for them instead. Chris Jackson's been
:41:36. > :41:36.
:41:36. > :41:44.through the court system. He's worried losing the right to choose a
:41:44. > :41:47.lawyer could lead to miscarriages of justice. I have been in trouble over
:41:48. > :41:53.the years and I'm not proud of it, but I have been. I have seen people
:41:53. > :41:56.in court who do not know their solicitor and the next minute they
:41:56. > :42:00.have been sent down and they don't understand why. They did not have a
:42:00. > :42:08.fair hearing. The solicitor stood there and did not fight their
:42:08. > :42:11.corner. The kind of service Chris has been used to is part of what
:42:11. > :42:15.Justice Minister Chris Grayling says is one of the most expensive legal
:42:15. > :42:22.aid bills in the world at �2.1 billion and it has to face cuts like
:42:22. > :42:25.any other area of public spending. We face tough times financially. We
:42:25. > :42:29.are trying to bring down a substantial deficit and increase
:42:29. > :42:33.spending on the health service. To do that we need to take tough
:42:33. > :42:43.decisions about making the criminal justice system work more
:42:43. > :42:43.
:42:43. > :42:49.efficiently. Officially the consultation process is over but the
:42:49. > :42:56.government says it is open to ideas. A final decision has yet to be made.
:42:57. > :43:00.There may be time for a last-minute reprieve.
:43:00. > :43:02.Well, to discuss all of that we're joined by Ash Bhatia of the
:43:02. > :43:06.Nottingham solicitors, Bhatia Best. He's also chairman of the Nottingham
:43:06. > :43:12.Criminal Committee. The government says your protests are over the top.
:43:12. > :43:18.Is that true? I do not believe the protests or over the top. The
:43:18. > :43:20.protests that have arisen over the consultation are unprecedented. They
:43:20. > :43:25.demonstrate universal opposition to the government's proposal for
:43:25. > :43:30.substantial reform. That opposition is not only from the solicitor's
:43:30. > :43:36.profession, from the bar, it is also from senior members of the
:43:36. > :43:40.judiciary, no less the president of the Supreme Court. You believe this
:43:40. > :43:44.change in the criminal justice system could bring the Truman
:43:44. > :43:52.justice system here to the brink of collapse that macro it could bring
:43:52. > :43:57.the criminal justice system. judge in this area at eight
:43:57. > :44:00.comparatively recent meeting made it known he was so keen on finding
:44:00. > :44:04.efficiencies and improvements to the system that if it did not come about
:44:04. > :44:12.within an 18 month period there was a risk the criminal justice system
:44:12. > :44:15.and the rule of law may collapse altogether. Very strong stuff. We
:44:15. > :44:21.have also heard from senior Conservatives like Sir Edward
:44:21. > :44:26.Garnier, a highly qualified lawyer himself, he says he has reservations
:44:26. > :44:29.about this. Now the government's lawyers on the Panel of Counsel say
:44:29. > :44:35.it could create an underclass with no access to justice. This is
:44:35. > :44:41.serious. Clearly lawyers do not like this. We are in a situation where we
:44:41. > :44:44.are spending �2 billion on it. We are not scrapping the budget
:44:44. > :44:49.completely and taking representation away. We are trying to find a
:44:49. > :44:54.saving. We currently have 1600 firms around the country doing criminal
:44:54. > :44:59.legal aid. We are planning to take it down to six firms per county. We
:44:59. > :45:05.are making it more efficient. This is not free. The taxpayer has two
:45:05. > :45:09.pay a large cost. Cases end up going on for too long. We are trying to
:45:09. > :45:14.have less firms involved to make it more efficient and get a better deal
:45:14. > :45:21.for the taxpayer while leaving polity legal advice. It has to be
:45:21. > :45:25.done. As far as both sides of the profession are concerned, there is
:45:25. > :45:28.no fundamental opposition to the motion of exacting savings. We
:45:28. > :45:32.understand the difficulty the Treasury is in. We support the
:45:32. > :45:37.notion that proper savings should be achieved. The opposition is based
:45:37. > :45:42.upon the way in which the savings are to be accepted, not the savings
:45:42. > :45:52.themselves. What macro Toby Perkins, we are all facing tough times,
:45:52. > :45:58.shouldn't the legal service do its bit -- Toby Perkins. We support the
:45:58. > :46:01.need for savings but what we have seen among the government's policies
:46:01. > :46:06.is a lack of fairness and incompetence. We have seen a whole
:46:06. > :46:12.raft of things that vulnerable people have been treated really
:46:12. > :46:15.badly. The savings the government promised they would deliver, they
:46:15. > :46:19.have not done it. This is another of those cases where you will see
:46:19. > :46:23.people who rely on legal aid who have no choice in terms of which
:46:23. > :46:27.solicitor they use. At the same time, there are doubts whether it
:46:27. > :46:33.will deliver savings that the government claim they will.
:46:33. > :46:39.should the public care? Because the public of the UK have always cared
:46:39. > :46:44.passionately about the rule of law and natural justice. It is easy and
:46:44. > :46:48.it often arises in the press and the media to be critical of a criminal
:46:49. > :46:53.who has committed a terrible offence. It is always of course
:46:53. > :46:57.going to be difficult to justify the response in defending and using
:46:57. > :47:02.taxpayers money there. But the public to understand that natural
:47:02. > :47:07.justice is really important. It is critically important to ensure that
:47:08. > :47:12.when an offence is committed the correct person is convicted. It is
:47:12. > :47:18.not something you can mess around with. No one wants to mess around
:47:18. > :47:23.with it. Ten years ago Tony Blair referred to the legal aid gravy
:47:23. > :47:26.train. I would not like to call it that. But there has been a
:47:26. > :47:31.recognition that we need to reform the system to make it cheaper. We
:47:31. > :47:40.want to give people the right representation. People assume
:47:40. > :47:45.lawyers make tonnes of money. Some do. The idea lawyers make tonnes of
:47:45. > :47:49.money, especially legal aid lawyers, it is fundamentally untrue. Readers
:47:49. > :47:54.of national newspapers may have seen figures of the highest paid more
:47:54. > :47:57.funds in the country. But let us be clear, that is not payment going to
:47:57. > :48:01.an individual. That is a payment often going to a large criminal
:48:01. > :48:05.defence firm that deals with a huge number of clients and often in
:48:05. > :48:13.various parts of the country. The actual rates payable especially to
:48:13. > :48:17.some of my youngest lawyers and trainees is absolutely derisory.
:48:18. > :48:20.What sort of effect do you think this will have? There is a real risk
:48:20. > :48:30.that the criminal defence service to be provided in this area and across
:48:30. > :48:30.
:48:30. > :53:11.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2141 seconds
:53:11. > :53:16.the rest of the country may well be councils do? Shops like this one can
:53:16. > :53:21.be given a helping hand. People come in here regularly. Mary and her
:53:21. > :53:25.staff put lots of time and effort into making the shop attractive.
:53:25. > :53:29.They are lovely people poll -- they are lovely people. They should be
:53:29. > :53:34.given a helping hand. Joining us is Professor Josh were Banfield who
:53:34. > :53:37.produced that report. Have you found that the East Midlands will be one
:53:37. > :53:46.of the most effective -- affected areas?
:53:46. > :53:50.Wires that? There is a lack of understanding of spending and how it
:53:50. > :53:58.relates to the economy. There are a number of small shops who are
:53:58. > :54:04.marginally profitable. Are there more here than in other areas? Yes,
:54:04. > :54:10.more than in places like the south. There are big changes going on in
:54:10. > :54:14.the regional environment. RB, Leicester, Nottingham and so one, it
:54:14. > :54:19.has a big impact. In smaller towns we see quite a problem with
:54:19. > :54:26.neighbourhood shops, which will probably decline at a faster rate.
:54:26. > :54:31.What you want politicians to do to help? There are several things.
:54:31. > :54:34.Everybody agrees that the high street is worth saving. It is a
:54:34. > :54:40.matter of partly looking at the way in which things are planned, but our
:54:40. > :54:45.view is that, first of all, there is a problem with this list rates and
:54:45. > :54:55.occupancy costs. The costs are rising. This was alluded to in our
:54:55. > :54:57.
:54:57. > :55:01.film. What do you want to do happen to shops? We have market towns in my
:55:01. > :55:06.constituency. People are changing how they shop. They shop online and
:55:06. > :55:11.out of town. We need to make the high street a destination. We need
:55:11. > :55:15.to bring in new things to attract people in. We need to increase
:55:15. > :55:22.footfall. If you charge people lots to park in town centres, they are
:55:22. > :55:26.not going to come in. Surely you can do something about that? Local
:55:26. > :55:31.councils have much more power to choose these things. I think we need
:55:31. > :55:37.local solutions to these things, but we need to find a new need for high
:55:37. > :55:41.streets that attracts people in. What would Labour do? There's a lot
:55:41. > :55:47.that councils can do. The fact that councils are facing massive
:55:47. > :55:52.financial problems... Parking is one of the few revenue sources they
:55:52. > :55:56.have. Labour didn't do a lot when they were in power to help the high
:55:56. > :55:59.street. The most important thing you can do is to support people and make
:55:59. > :56:04.sure they have money in their pockets. This is the slowest
:56:04. > :56:09.recovery we we have ever had. We are five years into recession without
:56:09. > :56:18.any growth. If you choke off the recovery, you will see a long period
:56:18. > :56:28.of stagnation. That's what we're seeing. Can it get any better?
:56:28. > :56:28.
:56:28. > :56:35.need to make cold strategic decisions. One is car parking. We
:56:35. > :56:38.asked 1000 consumers and car parking and congestion issues come in the
:56:39. > :56:42.top three of 70%. It is a really important problem. People want to
:56:42. > :56:49.shop on the high street but they cannot get there. The second problem
:56:49. > :56:55.is business rates. A place like Grimsby, the research shows that in
:56:55. > :57:02.the town centre they pay �12.5 million every year in business
:57:02. > :57:07.rates. The retailers outside of the town pay only �3.5 million. If you
:57:07. > :57:12.are a retailer, where do you want to go? It is killing it. If you want
:57:12. > :57:19.shops on the high street to remain, you have got to reduce the costs.
:57:19. > :57:23.What is the government going to do about that? We have reduced the
:57:23. > :57:28.rates. There has been some help. The business rates system should be
:57:28. > :57:34.based on current market values rather than things seemed when the
:57:34. > :57:40.scheme was designed a while ago. At a time of no revenue, it is hard to
:57:40. > :57:45.say that we can give away business rates. There are no easy magic
:57:46. > :57:55.solutions. We have to find ways of helping businesses who provide a
:57:55. > :58:00.service. You also mentioned the fact this is almost a natural process. We
:58:00. > :58:06.cannot go backwards. Is this what is happening? We have changed the way
:58:06. > :58:10.we shop. Can we ever go back with Matt there is a little bit of that.
:58:10. > :58:15.Everyone complains about the supermarkets but lots of people use
:58:15. > :58:22.them. Lots of us shop online. We are changing habits and there is not
:58:22. > :58:29.that much... Surely we cannot accept all of the job losses which come
:58:29. > :58:32.with the collapse of the high street was much a lady in Ripley started
:58:32. > :58:37.doing interior design in a garage and has now opened a shop on the
:58:37. > :58:42.high street. It is not all a bad trend. We have a thriving small
:58:42. > :58:46.business going up. We do not want to lose the jobs but it is about
:58:46. > :58:53.finding local solutions. What works in Chesterfield will not work in
:58:53. > :59:03.Hinckley. Thank you very much for joining us. Time now for a round-up
:59:03. > :59:04.
:59:04. > :59:07.of some of the other political Nottingham City Council wants to cut
:59:07. > :59:10.down on new off-licences in parts of the city. The council is drawing up
:59:10. > :59:13.plans to make it harder for new off-licences to run in areas which
:59:13. > :59:18.it says are saturated. It's looking at introducing the curbs in Radford,
:59:18. > :59:21.the Arboretum and Hyson Green. King's Mill Hospital has admitted it
:59:21. > :59:25.will need significant cash help from the Government to help meet its
:59:25. > :59:30.massive debt. Paying the loans for the cost of a redevelopment of the
:59:30. > :59:35.hospital is costing it �40 million a year.
:59:35. > :59:39.The UKIP MEP Derke Clark is stepping down in June in case he runs out of
:59:39. > :59:42.gas. Mr Clark who's 79 says he wants to make way for some of the younger
:59:42. > :59:46.people who've recently joined the party.
:59:46. > :59:49.A plan by Derby City Council to sell of some of its buildings to save on
:59:49. > :59:52.maintenance costs has been upheld after being challenged by
:59:52. > :59:55.Conservatives on the council. The council's looking to save almost �3