:01:17. > :01:27.new PCCs doing? And the campaign by the regions Ukrainians who want
:01:27. > :01:27.
:01:27. > :36:37.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2109 seconds
:36:37. > :36:40.tragic episode in their history who doesn't want any more powers.
:36:40. > :36:45.One of our Police and Crime Commissioner 's tells us he doesn't
:36:45. > :36:49.want to take over the other emergency services, too. I feel I've
:36:49. > :36:54.got my hands full. I've been asked to do this job on behalf of the
:36:54. > :36:57.people who live in this area. And it is a forlorn drop. The East Midlands
:36:57. > :37:03.community leading a campaign to get the government to recognise the
:37:03. > :37:09.Soviet area famine in their home country as genocide. They will come
:37:09. > :37:12.and they will say, where are the seeds, the potato, the flower. They
:37:12. > :37:19.took everything and people were starving and dying, especially
:37:19. > :37:23.children and elderly people. My guests this week, the Madonna
:37:23. > :37:27.show Conservative MP Pauline Latham and Nottingham North MP Labour's
:37:28. > :37:31.Graham Allen. First, let's look at the week ahead and as we've heard,
:37:31. > :37:35.it's been dominated by the Chancellor 's Spending Review on
:37:35. > :37:39.Wednesday. Pauline Latham, what would you like to hear for the East
:37:39. > :37:42.Midlands and for your own constituents? I'd like to see some
:37:43. > :37:46.investment in building works and infrastructure. That would get the
:37:46. > :37:51.building industry moving. It isn't moving is in still the East Midlands
:37:51. > :37:56.and it needs to, to create more jobs and get people off the unemployment
:37:56. > :37:59.register. Is that likely? We are getting whispers of some government
:37:59. > :38:04.departments taking some substantial hits. Local government, I think,
:38:04. > :38:07.will, but there are still efficiencies they could make.
:38:07. > :38:15.Still? They should be sharing back-office services and there's no
:38:15. > :38:20.need for every single... We've heard this. There is no need for Derby and
:38:20. > :38:26.the wash to have child services, they could share those. So they
:38:26. > :38:29.could do more. What do you expect, Graham? What I'd like and what I
:38:29. > :38:33.expect as two different things. There will be more pain, I think.
:38:33. > :38:38.What I'd like to see as the Troxler getting off the back of local
:38:38. > :38:47.government, allowing local government to do its thing, and I'd
:38:47. > :38:50.also like to see him implement some of the recommendations that Michael
:38:50. > :38:54.Heseltine put forward. So that we can build jobs that Pauline talked
:38:54. > :39:00.about, build the economy in our region. The government hasn't got
:39:00. > :39:05.the appetite for that. They are not being very successful at the moment,
:39:05. > :39:10.all governments, central government, this massive over centralisation
:39:10. > :39:15.they have in England has got to go. We've got to allow people to do what
:39:15. > :39:19.they need to do which is built local government and devolve power.
:39:19. > :39:24.They've died for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. And that includes
:39:24. > :39:31.taxation powers? They should be local taxation powers but only when
:39:31. > :39:35.the referendum has agreed locally. You can't do it if the local people
:39:35. > :39:39.don't agree to do it. But it might make local government more
:39:39. > :39:44.accountable. Thank you. The new Police and Crime Commissioner is,
:39:44. > :39:48.the PCCs, have been in the job for six months now but they are rarely
:39:48. > :39:52.out of the news. The Leicester East MP Keith Vaz has secured a special
:39:52. > :39:58.debate tomorrow night in the Commons to throw a spotlight on concerns
:39:58. > :40:03.that in some areas, it's not working. What our PCCs make of it?
:40:03. > :40:10.In inner-city Leicester, some home truths for a police Commissioner.
:40:10. > :40:17.There is a bit of a phobia about police. Who has?Mothers. They are
:40:17. > :40:22.the public enemy. Leicestershire's PCC, it's Police and Crime
:40:22. > :40:26.Commissioner, wants to change those permission -- perceptions. I was
:40:26. > :40:32.amazed by the levels of mistrust between youngsters and the police.
:40:32. > :40:37.He is also having to explain his new role as PCC. Prior to the election,
:40:37. > :40:41.hence the low turnout, we did not excite the public about this.
:40:41. > :40:46.police commissioners were elected on the lowest national turnout but
:40:46. > :40:51.seven months since they took office, is the role making an impact on the
:40:51. > :40:57.people they are supposed to serve? Now they are there, why don't they
:40:57. > :41:04.letters know what they are doing for us? I am sure the mechanism is in
:41:04. > :41:08.place but he needs to be more visible. Interest groups get it.
:41:08. > :41:13.They understand what PCCs could and should and will do for them. Now the
:41:14. > :41:18.Home Office is floating the idea of devolving even more powers to the
:41:18. > :41:24.PCCs, such as 909 emergency services, bringing together the
:41:24. > :41:27.ambulance, fire and police under the control of one directly elected
:41:27. > :41:34.police commissioner. But this police Commissioner is not so keen, as he
:41:34. > :41:37.told me. All I would say is I've got my hands full. I have been asked to
:41:38. > :41:44.do this job on behalf of the people who live in this area and it is a
:41:44. > :41:48.forlorn drop. Also full on is the scrutiny of MPs. Keith Vaz and his
:41:48. > :41:51.committee exposed early PCC crises, such as in Lincolnshire, where the
:41:52. > :41:58.commission suspended his chief constable. A judge has described the
:41:59. > :42:04.decision you took as perverse and irrational. I accept entirely the
:42:04. > :42:08.High Court judge's criticism. issue is the government says we have
:42:08. > :42:13.to wait another three and a half years for the electorate to decide.
:42:14. > :42:20.We think that the best way in which you can scrutinise is for the police
:42:20. > :42:24.and the panels to be doing their job as effectively as possible. When you
:42:25. > :42:29.set up a new organisation or a new set of initiatives, you need to
:42:29. > :42:34.allow them to settle and you allow them to work. You allow judgements
:42:34. > :42:37.to be made about whether or not it needs tweaking a bit. But for many
:42:37. > :42:43.MPs, tweaking the scrutiny of our police commissioners looks set to be
:42:43. > :42:44.the priority now. Joining me to discuss all of that is
:42:44. > :42:49.the Lincolnshire Police Commissioner, Alan Hardwick. Let's
:42:49. > :42:53.be honest, you had a grilling therefrom Keith Vaz. I did in the
:42:53. > :43:03.clip you showed. I agreed with the High Court judge. There was about to
:43:03. > :43:06.that. Or rather I heard what he said and I didn't agree with him. Our
:43:06. > :43:10.disagreement was based on an interpretation of a very, very small
:43:10. > :43:16.point of law. But now the chief constable has been reinstated, the
:43:16. > :43:20.chair of your scrutiny panel quipped. You've got a payment to
:43:20. > :43:26.find for the legal proceedings. It's not the ideal start to your period
:43:26. > :43:34.in office. What would people have me do? The people of Lincolnshire need
:43:34. > :43:38.to be open and transparent, that is my job. In the private sector, a
:43:38. > :43:42.suspension happens every day. It happens all the time, within police
:43:42. > :43:46.forces it does as well. I didn't look for this confrontation. I
:43:46. > :43:51.didn't look for the original complaint. The confrontation I
:43:51. > :43:57.didn't seek. It was forced upon me. What is going on now? What do you
:43:57. > :44:02.mean? Do have a good relationship with your chief constable? We do.
:44:02. > :44:07.Lincolnshire is being policed effectively. It is a gold standard
:44:07. > :44:13.for many forces. Financially as well. In what way is it a gold
:44:13. > :44:20.standard? The gold standard applies financially. Apart from the fact
:44:20. > :44:24.that we have a highly efficient and effective force. Let's touch on that
:44:24. > :44:28.gold standard. You probably don't want to hear from him again but here
:44:28. > :44:30.it -- here is Keith Vaz and his concerns about police
:44:30. > :44:35.commissioners. Lincolnshire has been a concern, the way in which the
:44:35. > :44:41.chief constable has been really moved and then reinstated by the
:44:41. > :44:46.court. The commissioner then saying that he would be gone in days and he
:44:46. > :44:48.is still there. We are concerned about Kent. In Northamptonshire,
:44:48. > :44:55.mems of the committee expressed concern at some of the political
:44:55. > :45:00.nature of the appointment. As they've done in Yorkshire and other
:45:00. > :45:03.parts of the country. There seems to be a very few areas that have
:45:03. > :45:07.escaped public interest in what is going on.
:45:07. > :45:13.Is Keith Vaz right? Are these teething problems inevitable?
:45:13. > :45:16.Absolutely they are. The role of Police and Crime Commissioner was
:45:16. > :45:18.introduced hastily by the government, it wasn't thought
:45:18. > :45:22.through properly. The elections were held in the middle of winter, there
:45:22. > :45:32.was a low turnout, but not in Lincolnshire because we had more
:45:32. > :45:38.than 15%. -- 50%. Any organisation as powerful as ours needs time to
:45:38. > :45:41.bed in. Time to bed in, but Pauline Latham, hasty. I think we could have
:45:41. > :45:45.chosen a better time of year to have the elections and if we could have
:45:45. > :45:50.done the same time as the County Council elections. . That didn't
:45:50. > :45:56.happen, though. That was a mistake. What about devolving even more
:45:56. > :46:01.powers to the PCC? The people in the jobs were elected to look after the
:46:01. > :46:05.police. I do have a concern that it would make too big a job. If you
:46:05. > :46:09.have police, ambulance and fire, certainly East Midlands Ambulance
:46:09. > :46:14.Service is a huge job, so what do you do? Break it down into different
:46:14. > :46:20.counties? Wouldn't benefit from it elected politician to run it?
:46:20. > :46:22.with the police and with the fire service as well. Graham, you are
:46:22. > :46:27.Rachubka directed elected politicians running important
:46:27. > :46:30.services, what do you think of greater devolution? I am a great
:46:30. > :46:35.advocate of election. Having somebody who the people elected to
:46:35. > :46:39.do these jobs is first class. It was introduced in a poor way, doing it
:46:39. > :46:44.in the middle of winter without publicity, without giving the
:46:44. > :46:49.candidates enough money to express their views. Is it working?I think
:46:49. > :46:51.it will improve and democracy works. What doesn't work is select
:46:52. > :46:56.committee chairman sticking their nose in and telling people what they
:46:56. > :47:02.are doing. Is that what Keith Vaz is doing? I think the select committee
:47:02. > :47:04.was interested in this issue, but I think the public and the people who
:47:05. > :47:09.elect or deselect Police and Crime Commissioner is, that is the weight
:47:09. > :47:13.should be, and we have a good one in Nottinghamshire. These Police and
:47:13. > :47:18.Crime Commissioner is, they are doing very good work. For example,
:47:18. > :47:23.the stuff happening on crime prevention, getting out and about.
:47:23. > :47:26.Our PCC appears at meetings all over the place. That is what you need.
:47:26. > :47:32.Keith Vaz says as far as he's concerned, what police commissioners
:47:33. > :47:36.do is a mystery to him. It may be to him, but it isn't the people of
:47:36. > :47:42.Lincolnshire and it isn't to the people represented by my fellow
:47:42. > :47:44.PCCs. Would you like to see more powers devolved to your office?
:47:44. > :47:50.the Home Secretary decides that is going to happen, then it will
:47:50. > :47:55.happen. I will be the first to say that this is more than a full-time
:47:55. > :48:00.job. It is about 70 hours a week. Maybe there is a synergy between the
:48:00. > :48:03.fire service and the police service, but I wouldn't go so far as to say a
:48:04. > :48:07.Commissioner could take on the health service as well. It is a
:48:07. > :48:12.totally different case. Ireland interviewing you before the election
:48:12. > :48:17.in November and you talked about transferring powers back to the
:48:17. > :48:23.police in Lincolnshire. -- I remember interviewing you. That is
:48:23. > :48:27.not likely to happen now, is it? I said, in Lincolnshire, and I have
:48:27. > :48:31.an announcement to make tomorrow about finances, in Lincolnshire,
:48:31. > :48:35.because of the way we have managed our finances, I am one of the few
:48:35. > :48:41.commissioners who can look forward to the future financially with some
:48:41. > :48:45.confidence. Look forward in confidence? OK. Now, you have Alan
:48:45. > :48:49.Charles as your Commissioner. If you are writing his report card, what
:48:49. > :48:53.would you say? He has been pretty invisible and I've never seen him at
:48:53. > :49:01.anything. I don't know what he's been doing at all. I suspect we will
:49:01. > :49:06.lose funding in areas where we have had funding in the past, and I don't
:49:06. > :49:09.think there is going to be funding in certain areas. What are you doing
:49:09. > :49:14.to ensure that doesn't happen? not doing anything in Parliament
:49:14. > :49:18.because we don't have a role. That is except the select committee, that
:49:18. > :49:23.is Keith Vaz. Then full government said stuff up and they poke their
:49:23. > :49:26.nose in. It is the health service, the education service, the PCCs.
:49:26. > :49:31.We've elected these people, give them the chance to get on and prove
:49:31. > :49:35.they can do their job opening. you encouraged by that? Absolutely
:49:35. > :49:40.right. I am elected by the people of Lincolnshire, I am accountable to
:49:40. > :49:44.them. Other people can scrutinise what I do, I dithered for the people
:49:44. > :49:47.of Lincolnshire. Thank you very much. -- I do it for the people.
:49:47. > :49:52.campaign has started in is Midlands to persuade the government recognise
:49:52. > :49:57.one of the worst famines in history as genocide. Millions of people died
:49:57. > :50:00.in the Ukraine in the 1930s when the Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin first
:50:00. > :50:05.-- forced through the collectivisation of farms. The
:50:05. > :50:09.Ukrainian community here wants recognition of the famine. Des
:50:09. > :50:19.Coleman went to the Ukrainian Centre in Derby to find out more and to get
:50:19. > :50:20.
:50:20. > :50:25.It is incredible, isn't it? These young Ukrainians are dancing to keep
:50:25. > :50:33.alive a part of their culture. When they're not dancing, their
:50:33. > :50:38.campaigning to keep alive a tragic The dancers may have been born and
:50:38. > :50:47.bred in Derby but they want to keep their heritage arrive. They know
:50:47. > :50:51.what happened in the Ukraine during what they call the Holodomor.
:50:51. > :51:00.Holodomor is basically two things. It means starvation. And suffering
:51:00. > :51:10.to kill. The Holodomor signifies the Ukrainian tragic famine. It happened
:51:10. > :51:14.in 1933. Up to 10 million people died. A third of them children.
:51:14. > :51:19.Maddie was brought up in the Ukraine under the Soviets and she remembers
:51:20. > :51:23.the stories down through the family. The Soviets came. They would take
:51:23. > :51:29.everything. My mum would tell me that they would come and they would
:51:30. > :51:35.say, all the seed, potatoes, flour, they took everything. And people
:51:35. > :51:39.were starving, and dying, especially children and elderly people. In the
:51:40. > :51:45.UK especially, the government hasn't yet recognised, whereas throughout
:51:45. > :51:49.the world, Canada, Australia, the United States, they recognise it. So
:51:49. > :51:58.if those countries recognise it, why can't the UK? For me, they don't
:51:58. > :52:06.want to upset the current Russian government because it is all
:52:06. > :52:09.politics. To me, that is wrong. people here want to see what
:52:09. > :52:16.happened officially recognised as genocide. And now the case has been
:52:16. > :52:20.raised in Parliament. The purpose of this debate today is to call on the
:52:20. > :52:25.United Kingdom government to a officially in recognise the dreadful
:52:25. > :52:28.and tragic part of Ukraine's history as genocide. In reply to Pauline
:52:28. > :52:34.Latham, the government said it recognised the horror of what
:52:34. > :52:38.happened in the UK -- Ukraine but it's hands were tied. The Holodomor
:52:38. > :52:48.predated the establishment of the concept of genocide in international
:52:48. > :52:52.
:52:52. > :52:55.law. And it was not drafted to apply specifically. So, a cool reception
:52:55. > :53:05.from the government. Nothing cool about the reception you get here,
:53:05. > :53:13.
:53:13. > :53:19.though. I think I'm going to have a Des has been struggling to walk ever
:53:19. > :53:24.since then! On a more serious note, this may have seemed to have
:53:24. > :53:27.happened a long time ago, but as we have seen in the report, it is very
:53:27. > :53:32.much a live is used for the Ukrainians. It is and I've had a lot
:53:32. > :53:36.to do with the Ukrainian community in Derby. And they feel very
:53:36. > :53:42.strongly about the fact it has never been recognised as a genocide. It
:53:42. > :53:47.clearly was, from all the reports through various journalists that
:53:47. > :53:51.came out and people who lived through it, it was a genocide. It is
:53:51. > :53:54.very disappointing that we are not going to recognise it. Let's bring
:53:54. > :53:58.you up-to-date. Are you disappointed by the government is rather
:53:58. > :54:03.legalistic approach? I am. To say there was a United Nations
:54:03. > :54:09.Convention in 1948 that recognises them, and this happened before then,
:54:09. > :54:11.so did the Holocaust, but we recognise that. The British
:54:11. > :54:17.government worried about Putin and the Kremlin? There might be an
:54:17. > :54:21.element of that. Which is pointing. It is history. It is a very sad
:54:21. > :54:26.thing if we can't recognise history. It is very sad for those Ukrainian
:54:26. > :54:29.to our fantastic citizens of this country, they want some recognition.
:54:29. > :54:34.And many Commonwealth countries to recognise it as a genocide.
:54:34. > :54:41.Australia, Canada, even the USA. Graham, you've got a number of
:54:41. > :54:45.Ukrainians in your constituency. is a genocide, it should be
:54:45. > :54:51.recognised as such. Let's also look at places like reminder and
:54:51. > :54:57.Yugoslavia. This happens in a lot of places. -- Rwanda and Yugoslavia. In
:54:57. > :55:00.Derbyshire, working people were hung on the steps of the courthouse, both
:55:00. > :55:06.in Derby and Nottinghamshire, for having the temerity to demand the
:55:06. > :55:11.vote, so we should all remember our history and learn from it. That has
:55:11. > :55:18.been recognised as a genocide. Just because this was before 1948, it
:55:18. > :55:24.still should be recognised. Where do we go from here? Some fairly heavy
:55:24. > :55:25.duty lobbying still. I will continue to do that and work with the
:55:25. > :55:28.all-party Parliamentary group because I was talking to John
:55:28. > :55:33.Whittingdale last week about it and he is still lobbying and trying to
:55:33. > :55:38.get it so we will not give up. far do you go with this? There are
:55:38. > :55:41.other areas that might be regarded as genocide, the treatment of Native
:55:41. > :55:47.Americans, the treatment of aborigines, and even the Irish
:55:47. > :55:51.potato famine. Yes, but they were not genocide in the same way this
:55:51. > :55:55.was a deliberate man-made genocide and famine. They didn't just take
:55:55. > :56:01.all the seats, they took all the grain, they got rid of all the
:56:01. > :56:07.animals. People had nothing to eat except bark from trees, leaves, and
:56:07. > :56:10.the odd woodland animal. Birds were killed, everything was killed.
:56:10. > :56:15.the United Nations, so it is when they introduce this illegal
:56:15. > :56:21.demolition -- when they introduce this legal definition of genocide.
:56:21. > :56:30.So the government is right. But we have a duty to nurture our
:56:30. > :56:40.democracy. We have to make sure that we'd be -- we are vigilant about our
:56:40. > :56:42.
:56:42. > :56:47.democracy. We have some sort of inoculation against dictators, but
:56:47. > :56:50.we must watch out. What are the Ukrainian community say? Aspect of
:56:50. > :56:54.the ambassador after the debate and he was encouraged by the words used
:56:54. > :57:00.by the Minister, but they were words and not actions. What we would like
:57:00. > :57:03.is action and I am visiting them in the summer. I will have a longer
:57:03. > :57:13.discussion with them then. Time for a round-up of some of the other
:57:13. > :57:15.
:57:15. > :57:19.political stories in the East Ken Clarke has spoken out again in
:57:20. > :57:25.favour of Britain staying in the European Union. In an article in the
:57:25. > :57:29.daily Telegraph, the Conservative MP said it would damage the UK if we
:57:29. > :57:37.left. The decision to grant a train building contract to Siemens rather
:57:37. > :57:41.than bombard your has been question -- question. The government
:57:41. > :57:43.confirmed the deal this week but the Labour MP is calling for an
:57:43. > :57:49.independent review. Three independent councillors have joined
:57:49. > :57:52.UKIP after being warned by the police about their alleged
:57:52. > :57:57.harassment the council's Chief Executive. They claim they are being
:57:57. > :58:01.harassed or by asking awkward questions. Threats that we shouldn't
:58:01. > :58:05.be asking these questions, threats we shouldn't be going about our
:58:05. > :58:08.business is councillors, and they are coming from the police and they
:58:08. > :58:12.are unfounded threats. The County Council says the move is justified
:58:12. > :58:22.because the three councillors have continued to cause distress to its
:58:22. > :58:24.
:58:24. > :58:32.chief consecutive -- Chief Ken Clarke's pro-EU 's speech, was
:58:32. > :58:36.it helpful? You wanted to be an EU MP. I am a Euro-sceptic. He has come
:58:36. > :58:38.in at this particular time and I'm disappointed. We will have a
:58:38. > :58:43.referendum, we have a bill going through in the near future, and I
:58:43. > :58:46.think we need to wait for that now. Do you think we are likely to hear
:58:46. > :58:51.far more pro-European speeches, because we haven't had a lot of
:58:52. > :58:57.them. There is a likelihood of a very severe split inside the
:58:57. > :59:01.Conservative Party, with even more people going. I think we are OK at
:59:01. > :59:05.the moment but UKIP is a new phenomenon. That will put stresses
:59:05. > :59:10.and strains. It will stress out the coalition. I can see a number of
:59:10. > :59:15.members of Parliament leaving the Conservative Party. And the
:59:15. > :59:19.referendum? It depends what the terms are and we need the