:00:38. > :00:44.Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU
:00:44. > :00:48.referendum before the general election? We talk to the Tory rebel
:00:48. > :00:53.demanding one next year, that is our top story. As government ministers
:00:53. > :00:54.prepare to decide how the press should be regulated, what will be
:00:54. > :00:57.the impact of this week's row should be regulated, what will be
:00:57. > :01:05.between the Daily Mail and Ed Miliband?
:01:05. > :01:11.And in the East Midlands — the mail peoples faces?!
:01:11. > :01:15.And in the East Midlands — the mail scam that's costing victims tens of
:01:15. > :01:17.thousands of pounds. And how are the Greens and UKIP planning to win your
:01:17. > :01:28.vote? He will try to force a vote in the
:01:28. > :02:08.October. Home Secretary Theresa He will try to force a vote in the
:02:08. > :02:17.was asked about his plans on the BBC earlier this morning. I think he has
:02:17. > :02:20.got it wrong, I think what we need to do is to negotiate the settlement
:02:20. > :02:26.with the European Union and then put that to the people me to decide
:02:26. > :02:34.whether to be in or out. Is this a flea bite or a real threat? I think
:02:34. > :02:39.the next election, a Conservative Party that will be offering people
:02:39. > :02:43.that renegotiation, a new settlement with Europe, looking to the future
:02:43. > :02:48.and putting that to the British people in and in or out referendum.
:02:48. > :02:51.And what the amendment possibly could do, as James Wharton, who
:02:51. > :02:53.And what the amendment possibly putting the Referendum Bill through
:02:53. > :03:00.Parliament has said, is it could jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie
:03:00. > :03:04.joins us now from Millbank studio. Good morning. If the referendum
:03:04. > :03:08.would be held next October, it would have to be an in-out question based
:03:08. > :03:15.the status quo? There wouldn't be time for a full renegotiation. I
:03:15. > :03:20.disagree. By having a referendum in 2014, it gives us 12 months to
:03:20. > :03:23.renegotiate, but it kick-started negotiations, because the European
:03:23. > :03:24.Union, if they wish us to remain members, would need to accommodate
:03:24. > :03:27.and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate
:03:27. > :03:32.and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,
:03:32. > :03:36.strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time
:03:36. > :03:40.for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has
:03:40. > :03:44.not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our
:03:44. > :03:46.timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:46. > :03:53.think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:53. > :03:57.a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need
:03:57. > :03:58.certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for
:03:58. > :04:02.ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for
:04:02. > :04:06.conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is
:04:06. > :04:09.essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their
:04:09. > :04:13.souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That
:04:13. > :04:18.would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I
:04:18. > :04:20.said, it strengthens the Prime Minister's hand if it is successful.
:04:20. > :04:24.You right in the Mail on Sunday Minister's hand if it is successful.
:04:24. > :04:28.the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they
:04:28. > :04:32.don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I
:04:32. > :04:39.wrote for that piece. What I am You are saying that the British
:04:39. > :04:42.people are not convinced. Look, there are too many uncertainties
:04:42. > :04:46.here - they may not be convinced the Conservatives will win the election,
:04:46. > :04:48.I hope we will, they may not be convinced the renegotiation will be
:04:48. > :04:53.good enough, that there will be convinced the renegotiation will be
:04:53. > :04:58.referendum. Do you trust David That is why we need to bring the
:04:58. > :05:02.referendum forward, there is time to negotiate, and we tidy up the issue
:05:02. > :05:07.that has been hanging around for too long. Do you trust David Cameron to
:05:07. > :05:16.deliver a referendum in 2017? I Minister, and of course I trust
:05:16. > :05:17.deliver a referendum in 2017? I referendum? There as only variables
:05:17. > :05:21.in between. What I am doing with referendum? There as only variables
:05:21. > :05:24.this amendment, is to try to be referendum? There as only variables
:05:24. > :05:25.is that Parliament and every MP referendum? There as only variables
:05:25. > :05:29.the opportunity decide whether they want to be sure of a referendum
:05:29. > :05:33.within this parliament, or maybe leave it to the vagaries of what may
:05:33. > :05:37.within this parliament, or maybe happen in 2015. Supposing you got
:05:37. > :05:39.your way, how would you vote? Like Michael Gove, I would vote for us to
:05:39. > :05:43.leave as of today, but there will be Michael Gove, I would vote for us to
:05:43. > :05:44.an enormous amount of pressure on European Union leaders to come
:05:44. > :05:48.forward with proposals. If they European Union leaders to come
:05:48. > :05:50.to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever
:05:50. > :05:56.closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving
:05:56. > :06:00.our legal system, I might change my more border control and control
:06:00. > :06:00.our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to
:06:00. > :06:05.happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:05. > :06:08.negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:08. > :06:12.people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime
:06:12. > :06:15.Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime
:06:15. > :06:20.Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It
:06:20. > :06:24.certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five
:06:24. > :06:30.weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,
:06:30. > :06:36.is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know
:06:36. > :06:40.cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in
:06:40. > :06:45.2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop
:06:45. > :06:49.this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your
:06:49. > :06:51.party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over
:06:51. > :06:56.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it
:06:56. > :07:00.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol
:07:00. > :07:03.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was unlicensed troublemaker of the
:07:03. > :07:06.Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but
:07:06. > :07:07.Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or
:07:07. > :07:10.not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or
:07:10. > :07:15.British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with
:07:15. > :07:19.it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for
:07:19. > :07:22.each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and
:07:22. > :07:28.decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the
:07:28. > :07:29.headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition
:07:29. > :07:38.publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition
:07:38. > :07:39.would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this
:07:39. > :07:44.opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this
:07:44. > :07:49.say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a
:07:49. > :07:52.say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle
:07:52. > :07:56.with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the
:07:56. > :07:57.panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with
:07:57. > :08:02.him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with
:08:02. > :08:10.that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most
:08:10. > :08:14.prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if
:08:14. > :08:18.you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in
:08:18. > :08:24.charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.
:08:24. > :08:29.They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill
:08:29. > :08:33.is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.
:08:33. > :08:37.It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the
:08:37. > :08:39.next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that
:08:39. > :08:42.all the future government would theoretically impossible and that
:08:42. > :08:45.is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that
:08:45. > :08:51.Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that
:08:51. > :08:59.nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David
:09:00. > :09:04.Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support
:09:04. > :09:07.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would
:09:07. > :09:11.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to
:09:11. > :09:15.his MPs, ignore this. It may well be significant number of Labour MPs do
:09:15. > :09:22.not turn up, and then what you have Conservative backbenchers, and in
:09:22. > :09:28.that war you might well find that through, and then the Prime Minister
:09:28. > :09:35.has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister
:09:35. > :09:39.membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able
:09:39. > :09:41.to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:41. > :09:49.think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:49. > :09:50.what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:50. > :09:55.not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:55. > :10:02.a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is
:10:02. > :10:08.has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some
:10:08. > :10:11.pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were
:10:11. > :10:16.going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of
:10:16. > :10:21.the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to
:10:21. > :10:27.hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an
:10:27. > :10:32.operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,
:10:32. > :10:34.operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign
:10:34. > :10:44.is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy
:10:44. > :10:49.under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am
:10:49. > :10:52.pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton
:10:52. > :10:58.is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton
:10:58. > :11:03.bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main
:11:03. > :11:08.episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David
:11:08. > :11:13.Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope
:11:14. > :11:16.Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is
:11:16. > :11:21.in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do
:11:21. > :11:26.you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but
:11:26. > :11:28.not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:28. > :11:31.you? The Government says it has mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:31. > :11:38.scheme designed for you which is in launching next week, help to buy,
:11:38. > :11:43.re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy
:11:43. > :11:45.really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:45. > :11:50.Never mind who lives in a house British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:50. > :11:53.this, who can afford to buy a house these days? The Government would
:11:53. > :11:54.this, who can afford to buy a house like many more people to be able to
:11:54. > :11:56.without putting down a crippling like many more people to be able to
:11:56. > :11:59.without putting down a crippling amount of money as a deposit, and in
:11:59. > :12:04.the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to
:12:04. > :12:04.the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two
:12:04. > :12:25.been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.
:12:25. > :12:29.Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this
:12:29. > :12:34.scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really
:12:34. > :12:40.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is
:12:40. > :12:41.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a
:12:41. > :12:47.value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to
:12:47. > :12:51.Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up
:12:51. > :12:58.to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up
:12:58. > :13:00.time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first
:13:00. > :13:04.losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first
:13:04. > :13:08.future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if
:13:08. > :13:12.you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the
:13:12. > :13:23.5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating
:13:23. > :13:28.a housing prime mover. You cannot get training to 5% mortgage anymore,
:13:29. > :13:32.90% even, so there are couples in our country who have good jobs,
:13:32. > :13:38.decent incomes, they could afford the mortgage payments but they
:13:38. > :13:44.failure in our banking market. So Jonathan, but I guess for you this
:13:44. > :13:50.is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a main impact of this scheme will
:13:50. > :13:52.is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a to push up prices, who does that
:13:52. > :13:57.benefit? Mostly rich and all the people who own their houses. Plus
:13:57. > :14:02.the banks, of course, because it is a subsidy for them. Who loses?
:14:02. > :14:03.People who want to buy a house in the future. Moreover, it is a bit
:14:04. > :14:09.odd that the Government says it the future. Moreover, it is a bit
:14:09. > :14:15.not OK to borrow to finance schools or roads, but it is fine for the
:14:16. > :14:25.effectively, in order to guarantee housing market. 2.3 million? I do
:14:25. > :14:31.not think Help to Buy covers that. But enter a would-be buyer, will
:14:31. > :14:38.they now be seeing a plethora of help to buy mortgages? In a word,
:14:38. > :14:43.no. David Cameron has brought the months, and banks were not ready at
:14:43. > :14:46.that stage. Two banks have committed to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group
:14:46. > :14:51.and the RBS group, so lenders like Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will
:14:51. > :14:59.be doing the scheme, but even once the scheme is up and running you are
:14:59. > :15:08.probably find 95% mortgages on the high street because of the guarantee
:15:08. > :15:12.the government is offering. People might say this is how we got into a
:15:12. > :15:14.mess in the first place. Why would the government want to make those
:15:14. > :15:21.products available then now? It the government want to make those
:15:21. > :15:28.more what investment banks were doing in the background that caused
:15:28. > :15:35.performed extremely well through the depths of the downturn. Is this
:15:35. > :15:37.performed extremely well through the game changer? Yes, I have done my
:15:37. > :15:42.best to save over the last few years but this has enabled me to make
:15:42. > :15:47.best to save over the last few years first purchase. How frustrating
:15:47. > :15:49.best to save over the last few years it just renting? Very frustrating,
:15:49. > :15:57.you are throwing away money hand over fist, and now I can take that
:15:57. > :16:02.enthusiasm raises a question back at the flat. If you are looking for a
:16:02. > :16:12.95% mortgage, you don't really care economy, you are thinking, great, I
:16:12. > :16:19.can buy a house. Yes, if I was a house buyer or a bank, I would be
:16:19. > :16:23.pleased, but it will do longer term economic damage. The tricky steps
:16:23. > :16:25.the government are trying to pull off is that home-buyers might be so
:16:25. > :16:32.grateful for the opportunity to off is that home-buyers might be so
:16:32. > :16:35.their own homes that they reward the Government with the vote, while
:16:35. > :16:38.their own homes that they reward the the same time the Government tries
:16:38. > :16:53.to sidestep consequences that such a Now Conservative MP Margot James,
:16:53. > :16:59.and Allister Heath, editor of City It is said by the critics that this
:16:59. > :17:17.scheme will cause a housing bubble. Where is the evidence? House prices
:17:17. > :17:20.are more varied. Housing not just in London remains overvalued and the
:17:20. > :17:28.problem with this scheme is that it will pump up house prices, it will
:17:28. > :17:33.therefore houses will become even more overvalued. That is a dangerous
:17:33. > :17:38.territory, last time it ended in tears, and now the Government is
:17:38. > :17:44.taking on the risk of that policy. What do you say to that? We have a
:17:44. > :17:55.real problem, it takes people on average until they are 38 years
:17:55. > :17:57.real problem, it takes people on property. The problem is not that
:17:57. > :18:01.they cannot afford it, but they cannot afford the deposit. We have
:18:01. > :18:05.got to do something to allow people to get their feet on the property
:18:05. > :18:10.ladder and I don't agree it will cause a boom in house prices. It
:18:10. > :18:23.would if we were not building any have had a record this year, 12
:18:23. > :18:34.months to right now, the record have had a record this year, 12
:18:34. > :18:39.the last ten years. These are not the statistics I have seen, but
:18:39. > :18:42.the last ten years. These are not new supply is coming up. It is
:18:42. > :18:48.starting to creep up. We don't see enough house building, need to build
:18:48. > :18:53.more houses and that is a solution to this problem. You are right,
:18:53. > :18:56.people cannot afford to buy homes and the reason is there are not
:18:56. > :19:04.enough good quality homes in the deposits are so high is because
:19:04. > :19:08.secondly the Government has passed laws to make the banking system
:19:08. > :19:13.secondly the Government has passed prudent, telling them to put more
:19:13. > :19:18.wrong. Now suddenly the Government is not happy with the outcome of its
:19:18. > :19:24.own rules and is trying to create these subsidies to circumvent the
:19:24. > :19:28.rules it has put in place. It is not a subsidy. Don't forget banks have
:19:28. > :19:34.to pay a charge in order to take part in this loan scheme and that
:19:34. > :19:42.the... You are guaranteeing the money. Yes, but the fear is worked
:19:42. > :19:47.out on a commercial basis. The taxpayer is protected. Why? You
:19:47. > :19:52.out on a commercial basis. The guaranteeing £12 billion worth of
:19:52. > :19:58.mortgages per year. Yes but the change in the whole mortgage basis
:19:58. > :20:01.has been made a few years ago in response of the crash. They made the
:20:01. > :20:12.distressed test on people applying for mortgages much higher and you
:20:12. > :20:17.twice... So it will not be like these self certification mortgages
:20:17. > :20:21.handed out in America that caused the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit
:20:21. > :20:26.like that but the banks are rightly asking for bigger deposits, they
:20:26. > :20:33.know there is a big chance house prices could fall if interest rates
:20:33. > :20:38.eventually, so they are demanding bigger deposits. The Government
:20:38. > :20:40.eventually, so they are demanding circumventing this is being passed
:20:40. > :20:41.eventually, so they are demanding on to the taxpayers which is why it
:20:41. > :20:44.is a dangerous policy. Instead they on to the taxpayers which is why it
:20:44. > :20:52.is a dangerous policy. Instead they should be massively accelerating
:20:52. > :20:54.Planning permission is much easier to get now, we have seen a 49%
:20:54. > :20:59.increase in planning permission to get now, we have seen a 49%
:20:59. > :21:05.a new building over the last year, a huge increase. In the figures I
:21:05. > :21:08.a new building over the last year, a recently, they showed new start
:21:08. > :21:12.a new building over the last year, a the 12 months to the autumn were
:21:12. > :21:17.only about 110,000 which is the figure you inherited, which was
:21:17. > :21:19.only about 110,000 which is the an all-time low in 2010. New house
:21:20. > :21:24.built in the last quarter are third up on the time last year. You have
:21:24. > :21:29.relaxation of planning laws and up on the time last year. You have
:21:29. > :21:33.other policies the Government put into effect last year to take effect
:21:33. > :21:38.and it is coming through now. I agree, if we weren't building more
:21:38. > :21:45.houses, if the construction sector advantage of the increased demand,
:21:45. > :21:52.there would be a risk. David Cameron says you are snob and it is only
:21:52. > :21:59.snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They don't have the bank of mum and dad,
:21:59. > :22:05.people like that will finally get on the housing ladder. That is complete
:22:05. > :22:10.nonsense. We need a sustainable housing market where there is a
:22:10. > :22:13.large amount of construction, like in the 1930s for example, where
:22:13. > :22:22.large numbers of proper family homes were being built for people. House
:22:22. > :22:28.prices were pushed down and people could afford houses. You are now
:22:28. > :22:34.encouraging people to take out a 95% mortgage, I thought that was a bad
:22:34. > :22:42.idea, so supposing interest rates go struggle, and supposing house prices
:22:42. > :22:49.fall by more than 5%, I am now faced with negative equity and soaring
:22:49. > :22:54.interest rates that I cannot afford. 95% mortgage, if you can afford
:22:54. > :22:57.interest rates that I cannot afford. repayments, you will be fine. What
:22:57. > :23:03.happens when interest rates rise? They have got to rise a lot before
:23:03. > :23:08.you get into trouble. People are already affording rent which is
:23:08. > :23:11.you get into trouble. People are lot higher than mortgage payments.
:23:11. > :23:16.You will not be able to get into this scheme unless you can afford
:23:16. > :23:20.repayments double what they are this scheme unless you can afford
:23:20. > :23:24.the moment. The Conservatives should limelight last week but there was an
:23:24. > :23:30.unwelcome intruder in the shape limelight last week but there was an
:23:30. > :23:38.row between Ed Miliband and the Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the
:23:38. > :23:45.claiming that Ed Miliband's Father Ralph hated Britain. They showed a
:23:45. > :23:48.picture of his father's gravestone with the caption, grave socialist.
:23:48. > :23:53.They then removed the photo and with the caption, grave socialist.
:23:53. > :23:57.Ed Miliband the right to reply on printed an editorial alongside it
:23:57. > :24:01.saying they stood by every word printed an editorial alongside it
:24:01. > :24:08.published an fair headline. It also reporter had gate-crashed a private
:24:08. > :24:13.memorial service for Ed Miliband's uncle in a London hospital, for
:24:14. > :24:15.which the paper has now apologised, but Ed Miliband has called on the
:24:15. > :24:23.hard look at the way his papers but Ed Miliband has called on the
:24:23. > :24:31.run. This comes a week before a but Ed Miliband has called on the
:24:31. > :24:40.Joining us now from Hull, John Prescott. Does this row between
:24:40. > :24:46.Joining us now from Hull, John reinforce the case for tough, new
:24:46. > :24:49.certainly influences the opinion about that but that is more of Paul
:24:50. > :24:54.Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang about that but that is more of Paul
:24:54. > :24:59.while I was in Strasbourg making sure my complaints were nothing
:24:59. > :25:03.while I was in Strasbourg making do with press regulation and he
:25:04. > :25:07.while I was in Strasbourg making right. This argument is not about
:25:07. > :25:16.politicians and media people, it is about ordinary people that love
:25:16. > :25:17.politicians and media people, it is and dealt with. All of these cases
:25:17. > :25:22.affected individual people and they are the ones that need to have
:25:22. > :25:26.justice in this matter. Next week we will be hearing whether the Privy
:25:26. > :25:37.Council will be reporting on the will be hearing whether the Privy
:25:37. > :25:49.agreeing then that what the mail did with its Miliband article was a
:25:49. > :26:02.matter of judgement? Yes, and the with its Miliband article was a
:26:02. > :26:05.conclusion that the relationship between the press, the police and
:26:05. > :26:16.politicians should be governed, between the press, the police and
:26:16. > :26:20.proposal given by half the press industry that that does not meet the
:26:20. > :26:22.Leveson requirement and I suspect the Privy Council this week will
:26:22. > :26:27.have to reject that, and I hope the Privy Council this week will
:26:27. > :26:32.will because it is not consistent with the Leveson report which the
:26:32. > :26:38.Prime Minister said he supported. You attacked the mail in your column
:26:38. > :26:43.today but your paper went through the Cameron family bins to see what
:26:43. > :26:46.nappies they used for their disabled son. Isn't that far more offensive
:26:46. > :26:56.than what the Daily Mail wrote about Ralph Miliband? It probably is,
:26:56. > :27:04.than what the Daily Mail wrote about couldn't defend that. I have had
:27:04. > :27:15.Haven't we all? Yes, but we are editors who acts unilaterally. Paul
:27:15. > :27:31.Dacre is running this thing in the judgement and some accountability
:27:31. > :27:33.which the press have accepted the old PCC is no good. They are playing
:27:33. > :27:37.for time because if they reject old PCC is no good. They are playing
:27:37. > :27:42.this week there is 12 months until you can consider a parliamentary
:27:42. > :27:45.alternative and then you are near the election and you begin to bully
:27:45. > :27:55.the leaders. That is how they have been successful in putting off
:27:55. > :28:01.recommendations. Maybe my memory is fading but did you or anybody else
:28:01. > :28:04.in the Labour Party object to the Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't
:28:04. > :28:09.know about it. I would just say Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't
:28:09. > :28:13.is wrong if that is what they did. As you said, you have the same
:28:13. > :28:19.position when they go through your rubbish bins, I think that is wrong.
:28:19. > :28:23.We have Leveson set up by the Prime Minister to look at the cultures and
:28:23. > :28:27.practices and the unilateral action of editors and he came forward with
:28:27. > :28:39.a proposal that was agreed in Parliament under a compromise of the
:28:39. > :28:41.Royal Charter. I don't like a Royal Charter, it is not democratic
:28:42. > :28:44.frankly, but we have agreed to go along with it so why did the
:28:44. > :28:51.Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press
:28:51. > :28:58.box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a
:28:58. > :29:02.means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to
:29:02. > :29:07.introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not want
:29:07. > :29:09.to face up to any form of accountability. We know Alistair
:29:09. > :29:14.Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair
:29:14. > :29:24.are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for
:29:24. > :29:36.this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to
:29:36. > :29:41.me, and he needs to be taking account. When Ed Miliband rang me it
:29:41. > :29:44.was to say, don't let these arguments drift into press
:29:44. > :29:58.regulation, he wanted the argument of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband
:29:58. > :30:00.after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can stay there. It is like with Murdoch,
:30:00. > :30:04.after Paul Dacre's head? No, he can we were not attacking him but what
:30:04. > :30:08.is papers were doing. To that extent, what they are doing about
:30:08. > :30:12.ordinary people, not just big politicians who can look after
:30:12. > :30:16.themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they
:30:16. > :30:20.might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well
:30:20. > :30:25.destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre
:30:25. > :30:30.got good judgment? I would say no, he will have to live with it.
:30:31. > :30:36.Thank you for joining us, he did not even have to go to the BBC studios,
:30:36. > :30:41.we sent a truck there for him. What is the endgame in this? Whether the
:30:41. > :30:45.Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,
:30:45. > :30:49.this is where it is going. We have the criminal trial involving Andy
:30:49. > :30:51.Coulson coming up, the Privy Council discussing press radiation before
:30:51. > :30:55.the end of the year, and the question is, what is political
:30:55. > :30:59.impact? My hunch, it is an unfashionable view, is that the
:30:59. > :31:02.total at yum elated political impact of the Leveson story over the past
:31:02. > :31:09.several years, hacking and everything, is close to zero,
:31:09. > :31:13.because most voters do not care, and those who do care believe that all
:31:13. > :31:18.parties are roughly complicit in being too close to editors and
:31:18. > :31:24.proprietors. You said that Adam Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a
:31:24. > :31:28.smile. Is the Daily Mail also a Labour mole? This has been a dream
:31:28. > :31:34.for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch, I am taking on the energy companies
:31:34. > :31:38.and now the evil Daily Mail! I think... I should say I used to work
:31:38. > :31:42.for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they
:31:42. > :31:44.surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done
:31:44. > :31:49.surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this
:31:49. > :31:53.position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think
:31:53. > :31:58.the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.
:31:58. > :32:02.If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do
:32:02. > :32:05.this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the
:32:05. > :32:12.media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a
:32:12. > :32:15.dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David
:32:15. > :32:18.Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some
:32:18. > :32:24.common ground between the three party Royal Charter and the
:32:24. > :32:28.so-called press industry version. What the Daily Mail has done is
:32:28. > :32:31.ensured that the Prime Minister is not going to be able to do that.
:32:31. > :32:35.What is going to happen this week is that the press Royal Charter has to
:32:35. > :32:41.be considered first, and that will probably be rejected. The Privy
:32:42. > :32:46.Council will reject it. Then the three party Royal Charter will come
:32:46. > :32:51.up, but meanwhile the press will set up their own regulatory body because
:32:51. > :32:52.the Royal Charter is not a proper statutory underpinning, they will be
:32:52. > :32:56.able to go ahead with that. There statutory underpinning, they will be
:32:56. > :33:01.will be the legal basis for the oversight of the oversight body, and
:33:01. > :33:07.it will basically just be an ambassador that will not be
:33:07. > :33:10.resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the
:33:10. > :33:18.profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for
:33:18. > :33:25.Ed Miliband. It is only great politics if he scores a great
:33:25. > :33:29.victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the
:33:29. > :33:33.narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But
:33:33. > :33:36.all those vested interests are people that you would expect a
:33:36. > :33:45.left-wing politician to want to take on. It is also more significant
:33:45. > :33:48.about who he has stood up for, and the person he has studied for is his
:33:48. > :33:54.father. Maybe people thought of him as a Marxist, now they think of him
:33:54. > :34:00.as war hero. He gets to the crux of matters, you know! You are watching
:34:00. > :34:01.the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be
:34:01. > :34:14.speaking to Godfrey In the East Midlands, the
:34:14. > :34:18.campaigners looking to stamp out scam mail. The letters with tempting
:34:18. > :34:26.offers which keep coming through our doors and can leave victims tens of
:34:26. > :34:29.thousands of pounds out of pocket. Receiving these through your
:34:29. > :34:33.letterbox, if you are a victim, is like being mugged in your own home.
:34:33. > :34:35.And last week it was Brighton, this week it's Manchester. Our Political
:34:35. > :34:38.Editor gives us a behind—the—scenes look at how the East Midlands has
:34:38. > :34:41.influenced the Conservative Party conference.
:34:41. > :34:44.Hello, I'm Marie Ashby and my guests this week include someone who's
:34:44. > :34:46.spent the week at the Tory Party conference in Manchester, Heather
:34:46. > :34:50.Wheeler the Conservative MP for Derbyshire South. And still sporting
:34:50. > :34:54.a Brighton sun tan, it's John Mann, the Labour MP for Bassetlaw in
:34:54. > :34:58.Nottinghamshire. Welcome to you both. First, let's get your reaction
:34:58. > :35:01.to the consultation which opened this week on the Derbyshire Fire and
:35:01. > :35:10.Rescue Service's plans to close 19 fire stations across the county.
:35:10. > :35:16.You must have some very worried constituents, Heather? At the
:35:16. > :35:21.moment, I did suppose they are worried because they probably don't
:35:21. > :35:26.know much about it. Your programmers highlighting it. The website dashed
:35:26. > :35:31.the document is on the website. Or they can bring my office and get
:35:31. > :35:37.copies. The model of the fire service is based on 1947 rules. This
:35:37. > :35:45.is the 21st century. We need our fire service to come into the 21st
:35:45. > :35:51.century. This is a plan for the future. So you approve of these
:35:51. > :35:56.plans? I went my constituents to read the document and understand it
:35:56. > :36:01.and give their comments. What is fascinating is that our numbers of
:36:01. > :36:13.callouts have gone down 40 3% —— 40%. And we are getting safer as
:36:13. > :36:17.well? Absolutely. We the same arguments from the ambulance service
:36:17. > :36:20.in the East Midlands and the police service pulling police officers off
:36:20. > :36:25.the front line and hospitals losing accident and emergency departments.
:36:25. > :36:30.One thing that categorises this coalition government is that they
:36:30. > :36:35.are taking part 999 services. Derbyshire is getting hits like the
:36:35. > :36:39.rest of the country. But these plans were approved by the Labour majority
:36:39. > :36:43.on the Fire authority. Because they have got less money because the
:36:44. > :36:47.government has cut the money. It boils down to government
:36:47. > :36:56.priorities. When George Osborne and David Cameron —— where they spend
:36:56. > :37:02.the money, they cut money from fire services. Cuts, he is saying. No,
:37:02. > :37:07.you doesn't understandably not going back to the 1970s. We are looking
:37:07. > :37:12.forward to the future. There aren't some fantastic new pieces of kit. We
:37:12. > :37:15.have to move with the times? Well, we've reported on the Lib
:37:15. > :37:18.Dems, Labour and the Conservatives as the party conference season has
:37:18. > :37:21.progressed, but what about some of the other parties? In a moment,
:37:21. > :37:24.we'll be hearing from UKIP, but first the Greens' spokesman in the
:37:24. > :37:26.region, Richard Mallender, told our reporter Helen McCulloch, about
:37:26. > :37:30.their prospects. I think there is very good support
:37:30. > :37:34.for the Green party in the East Midlands. We know from our local
:37:34. > :37:38.election results and from the European results last time around
:37:38. > :37:41.that many people want to vote Green. We are thinking about the
:37:41. > :37:47.European elections next year when there is a proportional
:37:47. > :37:49.representation system. That will be opportunity for people. What are
:37:49. > :37:55.your key policies for the East Midlands? We are looking to help
:37:55. > :37:59.grow the green economy. Want to see investment in housing and proper
:37:59. > :38:05.installation. We want to see investment in renewable energy as
:38:05. > :38:09.well. The East Midlands is the powerhouse for the UK economy. We
:38:09. > :38:13.have power stations here in the Trent Valley. We also have ideal
:38:13. > :38:18.situation for a lots more wind power. Some members of the Green
:38:18. > :38:25.party has said that you need to look towards UKIP to gather support. UKIP
:38:25. > :38:30.have been good at getting into the media. Unfortunately, or
:38:30. > :38:34.fortunately, they have not had many —— we have not had many members
:38:34. > :38:36.shooting their mouths of them saying daft things. We have to be out there
:38:37. > :38:40.putting our policies forward. Well, a few digs at UKIP there and
:38:40. > :38:44.with impeccable timing, joining us in the studio is Roger Helmer,
:38:44. > :38:47.UKIP's MEP for the East Midlands. So, Roger. Richard Malleinder saying
:38:47. > :38:56.that your party enjoys the controversy of it all. And some have
:38:56. > :39:01.enjoyed putting their foot in it? We are a resurgent, exciting party. We
:39:01. > :39:05.attract people with big personalities. Some of them go over
:39:05. > :39:12.the top but at least there is action and development and excitement. So
:39:12. > :39:16.the European elections next year, but already your deputy, Paul
:39:16. > :39:21.Nuttall, is saying that he UKIP should stand in the European
:39:21. > :39:27.elections. What do you think? We want to know because we want to
:39:27. > :39:34.inform the current and the! You will be standing against me? No, I would
:39:34. > :39:40.be standing against Heather Wheeler! I'm standing for a five—year term in
:39:40. > :39:49.the Parliament. I hope I shall do well next year. But you must be
:39:49. > :39:56.worried about UKIP? We have done interesting polling and we have
:39:56. > :40:01.noticed how many votes are coming in from the old Labour end. We have a
:40:01. > :40:08.small socialist workers group but they are churning through the votes
:40:08. > :40:14.and UKIP are picking up those. Heather is right. Many people say
:40:14. > :40:21.the UKIP is the Conservative Party in Excel. But we are getting votes
:40:21. > :40:24.—— the Conservative Party in ex—aisle. But we are getting votes
:40:24. > :40:37.from people who have not voted in many years or from the Lib Dems or
:40:37. > :40:43.Labour. Are you worried, John? No, I'll worried about the hypocrisy of
:40:43. > :40:48.UKIP. How much of you are from its? You have earned millions, you would
:40:48. > :40:55.your leaders. Don't MPs get salaries? You don't believe any
:40:55. > :41:03.European elections! I believe in representing my constituents. You
:41:03. > :41:10.represent the —— in the European Parliament as if you are a Foreign
:41:10. > :41:15.Minister. You argued that I shouldn't be allowed to represent
:41:15. > :41:19.the European Parliament's view. I did not say any of those things. I
:41:20. > :41:24.did not say that we ought to go and absolutely did not say that I was
:41:24. > :41:28.representing the European Parliament. I represent a
:41:28. > :41:32.constituency represent me. And I suppose you want in South Korea
:41:32. > :41:38.either, paid for by the taxpayer? Gentleman, so why should they vote
:41:38. > :41:44.for Labour and not UKIP? Because of jobs. The critical thing is jobs.
:41:44. > :41:49.That is what East Midlands needs. And these 909 services. The NHS in
:41:49. > :41:53.turmoil because of the cuts that are starting to work through. The fire
:41:53. > :41:59.service, the Belize, the ambulance service ahead of it. That is what
:41:59. > :42:05.Labour is fighting on. So how will you counter this UKIP vote? The
:42:05. > :42:08.answer is that we have already got fantastic manufacturing jobs here.
:42:08. > :42:12.They understand that Europe cannot do without us. They would be happy
:42:12. > :42:16.to have a free trade agreement. There is no way that John and his
:42:16. > :42:25.merry gang are gay to take is back to the 1970s. With your party be
:42:25. > :42:31.standing against Heather? I don't know. Can I come back to John's
:42:31. > :42:36.point. He has said that jobs are being hurt by excessive immigration
:42:36. > :42:41.from Europe. We agree. The difference is is that it was John's
:42:41. > :42:45.party which encourage this massive immigration and we are the only
:42:45. > :42:48.party saying that we have to get out of European Union because that is
:42:48. > :42:53.the only way that we can control our borders. And they don't say what
:42:53. > :42:58.they would have in its place. But what Rogers said in America to the
:42:58. > :43:03.Heritage Institute was that we want more flexible labour markets, in
:43:03. > :43:10.other words, cheaper labour here. That issue has not been addressed.
:43:10. > :43:15.Ever since Roger was in the Tory party and Margaret Thatcher took a
:43:15. > :43:19.sin. It was your party when you were in the Tory party. The big error was
:43:19. > :43:24.not that people can move across Europe, but that they can work
:43:24. > :43:30.anywhere. What I am calling for is Caesar's so that we give people jobs
:43:30. > :43:37.where they are needed and not where there's competition. Well done!
:43:37. > :43:43.Ever, do you see UKIP are being taken more seriously? I can
:43:43. > :43:48.understand why they're hopeful that, but unfortunately, they are not.
:43:48. > :43:51.What is an old, dear friend and I will not disrespecting. But we are
:43:51. > :43:57.talking about, in the nicest sense of the phrase, a group of people
:43:57. > :44:03.coming together and unfortunately people have got very, very angry.
:44:03. > :44:08.The recession was so bad and the austerity measures. But we had to
:44:08. > :44:13.take them because of the huge deficit that we were left. But we
:44:13. > :44:16.are coming out of the other side of it now. What about the fantastic
:44:16. > :44:21.figures about the number of cars bought in the last month. And that
:44:21. > :44:25.is Derbyshire. How was the party going to be taken more seriously? I
:44:25. > :44:30.have seen the list of candidates for next year's European elections and
:44:30. > :44:34.I'm very impressed. We have taken one guy who made a bit of a blooper
:44:34. > :44:40.at our party conference and remove the whip from them. Any new party
:44:40. > :44:47.will have people like this. We will straighten it out. We are a serious
:44:47. > :44:56.party. We came second in the last European election. You bang on about
:44:56. > :44:59.riding high in the polls, but but you did OK Lincolnshire but not in
:44:59. > :45:04.the rest of the East Midlands. Compared to where we were, it was an
:45:04. > :45:12.extraordinarily good result. Last time, we came second, ahead of
:45:12. > :45:15.Labour. And we see the every —— we see every prospect of coming first
:45:15. > :45:21.next time. That'll be a game changer in British politics. You have been
:45:21. > :45:23.born! Roger Helmer, thank you for joining us.
:45:23. > :45:27.Now last week our Political Editor, John Hess, sent me a postcard from
:45:27. > :45:30.the Labour conference in sunny Brighton. This week, he's been to
:45:30. > :45:38.not—so—sunny Manchester to see the Conservatives at their conference.
:45:38. > :45:42.Dear Marie, a moment to relax with a touch of crazy golf, scale down to
:45:42. > :45:46.an exhibition stand at the Conservative conference. One of our
:45:46. > :45:51.MPs is even on the leaderboard. So which leader has got the best
:45:51. > :45:56.handicapped and which one is on the campaign fair way for a hole in one.
:45:56. > :45:59.But what you can't fail to mess around the Conference exhibition
:45:59. > :46:05.hall is the image of the Tories certainly had an election winning
:46:05. > :46:08.swing. Margaret Thatcher still inspires the party faithful,
:46:08. > :46:15.especially for a new generation of conservative women. At a fringe
:46:15. > :46:19.meeting, there were renewed calls for more women in politics. I think
:46:20. > :46:24.it is much more credible if we have women talking about these is use
:46:24. > :46:29.across the political spectrum than if we have the same men on TV or in
:46:29. > :46:34.the newspapers all of the time. Amanda Soloway chairs the party's
:46:34. > :46:38.women's organisation in the East Midlands and hopes to be the next MP
:46:38. > :46:47.for Derby North. I would certainly like to see us getting into 40%. Try
:46:47. > :46:53.to get women more involved. We have a lot to offer. Ken Clarke believes
:46:53. > :46:58.he has more to offer. He confirmed he was staying on to fight the next
:46:58. > :47:05.general election in rashly. I will be 74. Mid—term of my career. I am
:47:05. > :47:11.surprised, to find myself still doing it. Although when I started, I
:47:11. > :47:17.would have told you that I'm not sure if I would be persuaded to give
:47:17. > :47:20.this up. Back to the golf, and success. The Conference ball hits
:47:20. > :47:22.its target but maybe that is just political spin.
:47:22. > :47:26.John Hess reporting on the Conservatives in Brighton — and get
:47:26. > :47:30.ready to see our political editor as you've never seen him before in 60
:47:30. > :47:33.seconds. But first, to most of us they're a nuisance — but to others
:47:33. > :47:36.they can mean being conned out of thousands of pounds. Scam mail,
:47:36. > :47:40.delivered through the letter box, telling you you've won prizes and
:47:40. > :47:43.you need to send money to receive them, is a growing problem. And here
:47:43. > :47:47.in the East Midlands, a campaign's sprung up to have them made illegal.
:47:47. > :47:54.Des Coleman has been to meet the family of one victim.
:47:54. > :47:58.Sometimes it is just junk mail. Other times, it includes tempting
:47:58. > :48:03.offers of cash. Most of us throw them away. But some people get taken
:48:03. > :48:09.in. I have come to Derbyshire to talk to a family that lost thousands
:48:09. > :48:14.to one such scam. This is three months' worth of scam mail that you
:48:14. > :48:21.had redirected from your father's house. Added it affect him? My
:48:21. > :48:24.father became totally addicted to the extent that if you got a letter
:48:24. > :48:30.like this, he would not do anything else that day until he had filled in
:48:30. > :48:36.the forms, may the application and sent off his checks to the
:48:36. > :48:43.criminals. He would refuse to to do anything with the family until he
:48:43. > :48:48.had done that. £150 a week, £5,000 a year. We worked out that since he
:48:48. > :48:53.has been doing this, he must have spent over £30,000. So what can be
:48:53. > :48:59.done? Three things need to be done. One is to stop the delivery through
:48:59. > :49:06.people's letterboxes of this can mail —— of this scam mail. The Royal
:49:06. > :49:11.mail needs to filter this mail out. Secondly, Parliament needs to
:49:12. > :49:17.strengthen consumer protection regulations to make trading
:49:17. > :49:22.standards take stronger action against these criminals and conmen
:49:22. > :49:25.delivering this mail. And ministers need to recognise that this is an
:49:25. > :49:27.addiction, an illness, just as much as alcoholism.
:49:27. > :49:32.Marilyn Baldwin, the founder of the Think Jessica Charity, is here. I
:49:32. > :49:38.read on your website about your mum being scammed and it was just
:49:38. > :49:46.heartbreaking. She was in her eighties, describe to me how it
:49:47. > :49:52.literally took over her whole life. Described to me the day—to—day
:49:52. > :49:56.bombardment. What happened to my mother, she responded to one of
:49:56. > :50:00.these letters. And I was put on what is called a sucker 's' list. Over
:50:00. > :50:11.the five—year period before she died, she received over —— several
:50:11. > :50:15.letters from the scammers. We try to get the post redirected but there
:50:15. > :50:20.was nothing that we could do. We could not get power of attorney, we
:50:20. > :50:24.could do nothing. We had to stand back and watch a do it. What effect
:50:24. > :50:28.did it have on her mentally, physically. Mother stopped going
:50:28. > :50:33.out, she missed family weddings, she became very fearful of people coming
:50:33. > :50:36.to the door. She was getting letters from FBI agents, she was getting
:50:36. > :50:42.letters from clairvoyant saying that her family were against her. It was
:50:42. > :50:46.a whole cocktail of additional characters which formed her
:50:46. > :50:49.delusional world. You set up the charity based in the East Midlands,
:50:49. > :50:57.but it is a much bigger problem than just here. It is a massive problem.
:50:57. > :51:03.Through the Think Jessica Charity website, we can be alerted to people
:51:03. > :51:09.who have lost millions. This mail is pumping into the UK. Brian Smith in
:51:09. > :51:17.the video there is one of your constituents, what have you been
:51:17. > :51:21.doing to help him? We have had ten minute rule debates in Parliament.
:51:21. > :51:27.We have got hold of the ministers, try to explain to them the issue
:51:27. > :51:30.over Royal mail. At the minute, it takes a signature of the Home
:51:30. > :51:34.Secretary to stop mail being delivered. Well to reason may is a
:51:34. > :51:43.bit busy! There are other things we should do. —— to reason may is a bit
:51:43. > :51:48.busy! The Royal mail don't want to be dealing with it they won't be
:51:48. > :51:54.sorting office to have a bundle of it and the police to go through it.
:51:54. > :52:00.We need regulation. I take my hot off to you, setting up a charity. I
:52:00. > :52:06.have found people, not always at elderly, while barristers say
:52:06. > :52:10.anything. They are scared as well. There is an embarrassment factor ——
:52:10. > :52:17.they are embarrassed to say anything. People get sucked into
:52:17. > :52:27.this. A rent as losses. Our MPs doing enough? In 2009, I addressed
:52:27. > :52:35.MPs in the House of Commons and I thought things were going to be done
:52:35. > :52:39.then. MPs have come on board. Heather is doing an amazing job
:52:39. > :52:44.now. Hopefully, she will keep pushing. I would like to bring in
:52:44. > :52:48.that these scammers know exactly who they are going for. They are going
:52:48. > :52:55.from mailing lists that categorise people as being elderly. You want
:52:55. > :52:59.the world mail to tackle this, but how? Now that we here it is going to
:52:59. > :53:05.privatise as well, that must be a concern. Yes, when I first
:53:05. > :53:10.approached Royal mail, I asked them to put a simple message or flyer
:53:11. > :53:15.where they could flag up victims who were getting a lot of this type of
:53:15. > :53:22.mail. They said it was impossible to do. Everything about a pensioner
:53:22. > :53:28.getting 100 letters a day and they say they can't be flagged up? ! They
:53:28. > :53:32.say that they have cancelled several contracts over recent years and that
:53:32. > :53:38.they understand the upset that scam mail can cause. This is a printed
:53:38. > :53:43.Royal mail stamp. The company that sent this can be traced by the PPI
:53:43. > :53:49.number on that stand. So cancelling ten contract is only the tip of the
:53:49. > :53:56.answer. —— the PPI number on that stamp. What we are doing is taking
:53:56. > :54:00.it a trading standards. East Staffordshire Council going to be
:54:00. > :54:04.the hub. I have 21 MPs from all around the country who have got
:54:04. > :54:10.their councils to join up with the East Sussex hub. We will attack the
:54:10. > :54:13.criminals that way. What about Royal mail. There are plans for
:54:13. > :54:20.privatisation. They are hardly going to want to turn away business? What
:54:20. > :54:24.Royal mail have done is what they have —— which is the tip of the
:54:24. > :54:31.iceberg. They have stopped coming in at the airports. This top 50,001 go
:54:31. > :54:37.last time. But we need to change the law. It is too profitable for them.
:54:37. > :54:44.Older viewers know, we all get junk mail of different kinds. Not of this
:54:44. > :54:49.volume. This isn't junk, it is scam. Junk mail is legal. But the Royal
:54:49. > :54:55.mail is making vast amounts of money from people buying mailing list. So
:54:55. > :54:59.you are saying it is not in their interest to act on this? It is not
:54:59. > :55:05.in their commercial interest. We need to make it so. We try to
:55:05. > :55:08.educate victims and potential victims so that when these people
:55:08. > :55:14.receive our literature and they get one of these letters, they think,
:55:14. > :57:04.which is one of those, and they don't respond. Because at
:57:05. > :57:07.We are getting into a discussion of more affordable homes needed, but we
:57:07. > :57:17.have no time. Andrew, back to you. Our next guest is no stranger to
:57:17. > :57:22.controversy, a former UKIP MEP he Our next guest is no stranger to
:57:22. > :57:44.recently lost his party's whip after a series of outbursts including
:57:44. > :57:47.receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land' and joking that a group of UKIP
:57:47. > :57:52.women who didn't clean behind their fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in
:57:52. > :57:55.independent but remains a UKIP party member. Here's a flavour of recent
:57:55. > :58:10.events in the political life of Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly
:58:10. > :58:16.be giving £1 million a month... Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails
:58:16. > :58:20.within 12 hours, only 47 were not agreeing with me so you are the
:58:20. > :58:23.within 12 hours, only 47 were not that is out of touch. Everybody
:58:23. > :58:27.knows me, a bit like the Marmite joke, they love me or they hate
:58:27. > :58:35.knows me, a bit like the Marmite but I have always told me like it
:58:35. > :58:40.is. I made a joke and said that women who did not clean behind the
:58:40. > :58:46.French were sluts and everybody laughed along, including the women.
:58:46. > :58:51.I have had hundreds of e-mails, saying, God Almighty, can't you
:58:51. > :58:54.I have had hundreds of e-mails, a joke any more? I am long in the
:58:54. > :59:06.correctness and I understand UKIP have moved on and they are doing
:59:06. > :59:10.well, and I wish them well. This, with no black faces on it. You are
:59:10. > :59:16.picking people out for the colour of with no black faces on it. You are
:59:16. > :59:25.their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps the way they are doing things now is
:59:25. > :59:31.disgrace me. We are joined now with a suitable distance between us by
:59:31. > :59:34.the independent MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You
:59:34. > :59:40.said this weekend that you have and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You
:59:40. > :59:50.be a complete sociopath to be in politics, are you a sociopath? No, I
:59:50. > :59:54.rugby club likes to tell it as it am just an ordinary bloke from the
:59:54. > :59:55.rugby club likes to tell it as it is. I did not come into politics to
:59:55. > :00:00.rugby club likes to tell it as it save my country from the clutches of
:00:00. > :00:06.the awful, evil... That is why I am in politics, and that is why I
:00:06. > :00:14.member, and I will still be voting ability... Do you accept that your
:00:14. > :00:21.conference? We were both born in ability... Do you accept that your
:00:21. > :00:27.same year, we are too old to worry about regrets. Let's look forward
:00:27. > :00:35.and see... Never mind the year I was born, what is the answer to my
:00:35. > :00:42.country and intent to do the best I independent for my country, and
:00:42. > :00:45.country and intent to do the best I re-elected. They are the only game
:00:45. > :00:54.in town, the only party that will get as out. Shouldn't you have been
:00:54. > :00:58.liability? You hijacked the party conference. That is a matter of
:00:58. > :01:03.perception. We have heard nothing in the last two years but it is a
:01:03. > :01:06.one-man band, a Nigel Farage party, and I can make a joke at a fringe
:01:06. > :01:14.meeting and collapse the whole thing. This doesn't say anything
:01:14. > :01:23.Andrew. It tells you about your journalism - it is not about UKIP or
:01:23. > :01:30.me, it was the journalists' reaction to a small joke at a meeting. And
:01:30. > :01:43.myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable
:01:43. > :01:56.force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has
:01:56. > :02:00.been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June
:02:00. > :02:06.and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement
:02:06. > :02:13.about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote
:02:14. > :02:18.getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you
:02:18. > :02:23.what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip
:02:23. > :02:30.of that. We are not here to win friends amongst the liberal elite,
:02:30. > :02:39.and Godfrey's problem was that he manifesto. Don't you need to reflect
:02:39. > :02:41.that you are too outrageous, too politically incorrect even for UKIP?
:02:41. > :02:47.Well, you see, to a certain extent I politically incorrect even for UKIP?
:02:47. > :02:51.have been gagged on other subjects. I am a libertarian, I wanted to
:02:51. > :02:53.have been gagged on other subjects. about flat tax. I thought David
:02:53. > :02:57.Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been
:02:57. > :03:01.gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of
:03:01. > :03:10.it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown
:03:11. > :03:13.machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might
:03:13. > :03:17.have a point, but I am speaking the Victor Meldrew wing. You might
:03:17. > :03:23.you from Hull, and if you look at Barnsley, and very recently in
:03:23. > :03:28.Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things
:03:28. > :03:32.in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You
:03:32. > :03:35.in the bubble, it is not like how we like the one who was sitting in
:03:35. > :03:35.in the bubble, it is not like how we bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of
:03:35. > :03:40.course it isn't, we are getting bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of
:03:40. > :03:45.of the vote in by-elections, of course it is not. Boy, wouldn't
:03:45. > :03:48.of the vote in by-elections, of main parties and the establishment
:03:48. > :03:52.love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as
:03:52. > :03:55.an independence against UKIP in is not happening. Will you stand as
:03:55. > :04:08.European elections? Almost certainly elections were next week, I could
:04:08. > :04:10.do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:10. > :04:14.again? We do not know, probably Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:14. > :04:18.but I shall certainly be trying Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:18. > :04:21.help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in
:04:21. > :04:26.Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the
:04:26. > :04:30.fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance
:04:30. > :04:34.to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I
:04:34. > :04:44.am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey
:04:44. > :04:50.take it? For those of you who were shrugged! Thank you very much for
:04:50. > :04:55.joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do
:04:55. > :05:00.not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because
:05:00. > :05:07.they think they are a smooth, slick, absence of PR polish is the reason
:05:07. > :05:11.for their popularity, so these are skirmishes are not a problem, and
:05:11. > :05:15.more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even
:05:15. > :05:20.in that clip from Andrew Marr, he juxtaposition with someone like
:05:20. > :05:25.Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked
:05:25. > :05:26.Godfrey Bloom than he has done conference, it was a disaster, they
:05:26. > :05:29.got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they
:05:29. > :05:37.kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist
:05:37. > :05:42.long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his
:05:42. > :05:47.website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he
:05:47. > :05:53.photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does
:05:53. > :05:55.photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin
:05:55. > :06:01.was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It
:06:01. > :06:06.sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be
:06:06. > :06:06.sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a
:06:06. > :06:12.beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a
:06:12. > :06:15.sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP
:06:15. > :06:18.sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the
:06:18. > :06:22.European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is
:06:22. > :06:25.right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what
:06:25. > :06:33.this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to
:06:33. > :06:37.electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as
:06:37. > :06:37.electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the
:06:37. > :06:40.three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the
:06:40. > :06:44.probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.
:06:44. > :06:55.The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making
:06:56. > :06:56.The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that
:06:56. > :06:58.he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that
:06:58. > :07:00.he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and
:07:00. > :07:01.councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need
:07:01. > :07:04.Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need
:07:04. > :07:06.ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.
:07:06. > :07:10.David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.
:07:10. > :07:12.David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women
:07:12. > :07:14.among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?
:07:15. > :07:19.He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?
:07:19. > :07:25.week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way
:07:25. > :07:29.businesses in Britain, there are not boardroom. If you look at politics
:07:29. > :07:34.in Britain, there aren't nearly enough women around the Cabinet
:07:34. > :07:38.table. So I think, in every walk of life, whether it is the judiciary,
:07:38. > :07:41.whether it is politics, business, there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:41. > :07:45.the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:45. > :07:47.women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:47. > :07:50.have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:50. > :07:55.big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we
:07:55. > :08:00.need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in
:08:00. > :08:03.need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing
:08:03. > :08:06.need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than
:08:06. > :08:09.need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she
:08:09. > :08:14.need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime
:08:14. > :08:14.need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I
:08:14. > :08:19.think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I
:08:19. > :08:25.will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to
:08:25. > :08:33.will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin
:08:33. > :08:43.college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,
:08:43. > :08:46.but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult
:08:46. > :08:48.brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger
:08:48. > :08:55.roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger
:08:55. > :08:57.told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary
:08:57. > :09:05.level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot
:09:05. > :09:07.James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.
:09:07. > :09:11.What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.
:09:11. > :09:16.like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,
:09:16. > :09:19.like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important
:09:19. > :09:23.intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George
:09:23. > :09:33.Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls
:09:33. > :09:40.you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this
:09:40. > :09:44.you are doing it on talent, Andrea now, a tonne of bricks will fall on
:09:44. > :09:49.him. He has got no excuse not to promote women, because the 2010
:09:49. > :09:58.intake was disproportionately female in terms of talent. The question of
:09:58. > :10:01.the Tories and the struggle with women voters is a very deep and
:10:01. > :10:05.historic one. You have to remember that for most of the post-war period
:10:05. > :10:07.they had an advantage electorally amongst women voters. Many times
:10:07. > :10:12.Conservative government without amongst women voters. Many times
:10:12. > :10:17.women of this country. This began to change in the mid-1990s, and the
:10:17. > :10:21.question is, why has that happened? personalities at the top are now
:10:21. > :10:26.much more hostile to women, or less, personalities at the top are now
:10:26. > :10:27.Brent doubled to female voters? personalities at the top are now
:10:27. > :10:29.is such a deep historical trend personalities at the top are now
:10:29. > :10:38.I do not think one reshuffle will change it. -- or less competent
:10:38. > :10:40.civil. The English party conference season is over, do you share the
:10:40. > :10:47.consensus view that Ed Miliband season is over, do you share the
:10:47. > :10:53.out best of the three party leaders? I think I probably do, but his
:10:53. > :10:56.overall approval ratings are still minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus
:10:56. > :11:00.ten. And the more the recovery seems minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus
:11:00. > :11:06.to take place, and some of the latest figures are quite amazing,
:11:06. > :11:10.they certainly surprised me, you wonder whether Labour's tactic is
:11:10. > :11:16.right to put all their eggs into the living standards basket. I was
:11:16. > :11:18.looking at car sales, which are booming. If people start to feel
:11:18. > :11:22.better, and they don't yet, but booming. If people start to feel
:11:22. > :11:31.they were, it is tougher to go on about living standards. George
:11:31. > :11:34.Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband making a great thing about living
:11:34. > :11:42.standards, but then they say under their breath, this is global forces,
:11:42. > :11:45.outstripping wage increases. And you're absolutely right, as the
:11:45. > :11:48.economy improves, presumably that will be dealt with, but Miliband's
:11:48. > :11:52.argument will be that there are people suffering, and even if the
:11:52. > :11:57.economy recovers, they will still forces, it is difficult to blame the
:11:57. > :12:01.government for that. Body being noticed now, there is nothing worse
:12:01. > :12:05.for the leader of the opposition noticed now, there is nothing worse
:12:05. > :12:08.for the leader of the opposition than to be not noticed. -- but he is
:12:08. > :12:12.being noticed now. It seems that he in many ways has set the political
:12:12. > :12:18.weather. Look at the number of references to the Labour leader
:12:18. > :12:21.weather. Look at the number of Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr
:12:21. > :12:30.Obama's speech on a similar topic, living standards. Was the mentioning
:12:30. > :12:35.Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the same language, he has not gone that
:12:35. > :12:39.far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would be more worried now, because Labour
:12:39. > :12:41.through the kitchen sink at their conference. They came out with the
:12:41. > :12:48.biggest policy announcements they could, compulsory apprenticeships,
:12:48. > :12:49.the energy freeze on prices, and it generated a poll boost which has
:12:49. > :12:55.fizzled away within ten days. I generated a poll boost which has
:12:55. > :13:00.not know where they go from here. What is significant with Ed Miliband
:13:00. > :13:06.conference beaches, he has set the one nation Britain, and the problem
:13:06. > :13:07.with those speeches is people say, they are fine, they are academic,
:13:07. > :13:15.but what does it mean? What you they are fine, they are academic,
:13:15. > :13:18.now is an intellectual framework that translates into policies. The
:13:18. > :13:22.polls to watch are not the ones after the conferences, but at the
:13:22. > :13:26.end of the month when it has also pulled down. They will tell us where
:13:26. > :13:28.we are going. We will have to go ourselves now. Thank you to our
:13:28. > :13:31.guests. The Daily Politics will ourselves now. Thank you to our
:13:31. > :13:37.back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two, and I will be back on BBC One this
:13:37. > :13:39.time, same time, next week. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.