:00:40. > :00:45.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:46. > :00:50.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:51. > :00:54.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:55. > :01:00.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:01. > :01:05.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:06. > :01:14.coppers will be answering questions this
:01:15. > :01:19.And in or out ` as your job depend on Europe? And as more
:01:20. > :01:27.London, does the London assembly have one arm tied behind its back?
:01:28. > :01:36.All of that to come. And the Home Office minister sacked by Nick
:01:37. > :01:40.Clegg, who says his party is like a wonky shopping trolley, which keeps
:01:41. > :01:48.veering off to the left. He will join us live at noon. With me to
:01:49. > :01:53.unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be
:01:54. > :02:00.tweeting throughout the programme, using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last
:02:01. > :02:03.day of the Scottish national party conference in Perth. We have
:02:04. > :02:07.discovered that Alex Salmond has been on the same diet as Beyonce.
:02:08. > :02:12.The SNP leader compared his attempts to lose weight with the campaign for
:02:13. > :02:17.independence - lots achieved so far, 20 more to do. In a moment, I will
:02:18. > :02:21.be joined by the deputy leader of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First
:02:22. > :02:32.they report on the independence campaign. September 18 2014, the
:02:33. > :02:36.date of destiny for Scotland, the day when these campaigners hope its
:02:37. > :02:42.people will decide to vote yes for independence. In a recent poll, only
:02:43. > :02:46.14% said they knew enough to vote either way. That is unlikely to
:02:47. > :02:50.change any time soon. I think the Scottish people will be going to the
:02:51. > :02:53.polls next year still not knowing an awful lot of stuff which is
:02:54. > :02:58.important, because the outcome, in terms of taxation, debt, exactly
:02:59. > :03:03.what will happen to the allocation of assets between the two countries,
:03:04. > :03:07.will come about as a result of negotiation between a Scottish
:03:08. > :03:14.government and the UK Government. That is not stuff which will be
:03:15. > :03:17.known year. At the moment, polls suggest Scotland will decide to
:03:18. > :03:22.remain within the UK. A recent survey found that 44% of those
:03:23. > :03:29.questioned planned to vote no, 5% yes. But interestingly, the
:03:30. > :03:34.undecideds were at 31%, suggesting that Alex Salmond's task might be
:03:35. > :03:38.tough but not impossible. There are a number of reasons which make a
:03:39. > :03:43.vanilla campaign a good idea. It does not put off cautious voters, it
:03:44. > :03:47.allows for people to imagine their own version of what independence
:03:48. > :03:51.will be like, and crucially, it allows for the yes campaign to take
:03:52. > :03:55.advantage of any mistakes by the no campaign. In other words, the yes
:03:56. > :03:59.campaign are not out there with big ideas, they are just waiting for the
:04:00. > :04:03.no campaign to trip up. What we do know is that whatever happens next
:04:04. > :04:08.September, Scotland will be getting more power. From 2016, a separate
:04:09. > :04:11.income tax regime will come into force, giving the Scottish
:04:12. > :04:14.Parliament control over billions of pounds of revenue. What we do not
:04:15. > :04:18.know yet is how the alternative would pan out. There are issues
:04:19. > :04:24.which would be raised by independence, issues about how the
:04:25. > :04:26.national debt is allocated, what the currency will look like, how an
:04:27. > :04:30.independent Scotland would balance the books, because it would have a
:04:31. > :04:34.bigger job to do, even down the Whitehall government has to do.
:04:35. > :04:39.Those are really big issues, which a Scottish government would have to
:04:40. > :04:42.face, on top of whatever negotiation it had to have with the UK
:04:43. > :04:45.Government. The Scottish government's White Paper on
:04:46. > :04:52.independence, two to be published within weeks, should fill in some of
:04:53. > :04:56.the banks. But how Scotland votes in September may yet be determined by
:04:57. > :05:02.what it feels rather than what it knows. And joining me from Perth is
:05:03. > :05:09.Scotland's Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we
:05:10. > :05:13.meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson
:05:14. > :05:16.said, if this referendum fails, it will fail on the basis that people
:05:17. > :05:21.put their British identity ahead of their Scottish identity, so we have
:05:22. > :05:27.got to attack on the British identity - what does he mean? Gordon
:05:28. > :05:33.Wilson is a very respected, much loved former leader of the SNP. My
:05:34. > :05:36.view is that I do not think the independence referendum is really
:05:37. > :05:41.about identity. I am secure and proud of my Scottish identity, but
:05:42. > :05:49.this is a decision about where power best lies. Do decision-making powers
:05:50. > :05:51.best lie here in Scotland, with a government which is directly
:05:52. > :05:56.accountable to the people of Scotland, or does it best lie in
:05:57. > :06:00.Westminster, with governments which, very often, people in Scotland do
:06:01. > :06:08.not vote for? That is the issue at the heart of the campaign. Let me
:06:09. > :06:14.just clarify, you do not agree with him, that you need to go on the
:06:15. > :06:20.attack with regard to the British identity of Scottish people? No I
:06:21. > :06:23.do not think we are required to attack British identity. It is
:06:24. > :06:28.absolutely compatible for somebody to feel a sense of British identity
:06:29. > :06:31.but still support Scottish independence, because Scottish
:06:32. > :06:36.independence is about a transfer of power. It is about good government,
:06:37. > :06:40.accountable government, ensuring that decisions are taking here in
:06:41. > :06:44.Scotland, by people who have got the biggest stake in getting those
:06:45. > :06:47.decisions right. I represent a constituency in the south side of
:06:48. > :06:52.Glasgow, and if you speak to many people in my constituency, if you
:06:53. > :06:56.ask them their national identity, many of them would say Irish,
:06:57. > :07:00.Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many of them will vote yes next year
:07:01. > :07:04.because they understand the issue at stake, which is the issue of where
:07:05. > :07:08.decisions are best taken. It looks like you are changing tack ex-, you
:07:09. > :07:13.have realised the softly softly approach, of saying that actually,
:07:14. > :07:16.nothing much will change, we will still have the Queen, the currency,
:07:17. > :07:24.and all the rest of it, is moving over towards voting for a left-wing
:07:25. > :07:30.future for Scotland... Well, I know that what we are doing is pointing
:07:31. > :07:35.out is pointing out the choice between two futures. If we vote yes,
:07:36. > :07:42.we take our own future into our own hands. We make sure that for ever
:07:43. > :07:46.after, we have governments which will be in demented policies which
:07:47. > :07:49.we have voted for. If we do not become independent, then we continue
:07:50. > :07:54.to run the risk of having governments not only that we do not
:07:55. > :07:57.vote for, but often, that Scotland rejects. We are seeing the
:07:58. > :08:01.dismantling of our system of social security. There are politicians in
:08:02. > :08:06.all of the UK parties who are itching to cut Scotland's share of
:08:07. > :08:11.spending. So Scotland faces a choice of two futures, and it is right to
:08:12. > :08:17.point out the positive consequences of voting yes, but also the
:08:18. > :08:22.consequences of voting no. But you are promising to reverse benefit
:08:23. > :08:24.cuts and increase the minimum wage. You would renationalise the Royal
:08:25. > :08:30.Mail, though how you would do that nobody knows. You are promising to
:08:31. > :08:34.cut energy bills. These are the kind of promises that parties make in a
:08:35. > :08:40.general election campaign, not in a once in 300 years extra stench or
:08:41. > :08:44.choice. Is the future of Scotland really going to be decided on the
:08:45. > :08:53.size of the minimum wage? -- existential choice. A yes vote would
:08:54. > :08:58.be about bringing decision-making powers home, but we are also setting
:08:59. > :09:03.out some of the things an SNP government would do, if elected A
:09:04. > :09:06.decision on what the first government of an independent
:09:07. > :09:11.Scotland would be would not be taken in the referendum, that decision
:09:12. > :09:15.would be taken in the 2016 election. And all of the parties will put
:09:16. > :09:19.forward their offers to the electorate. We are setting out some
:09:20. > :09:23.of the things which we think it is important to be prioritised. These
:09:24. > :09:28.are things which have a lot of support in Scotland. We see the pain
:09:29. > :09:32.being felt by people because of the rising cost of energy bills, there
:09:33. > :09:36.is widespread opposition to some of the welfare cuts. So, we are setting
:09:37. > :09:39.out the options which are open to Scotland, but only open to Scotland
:09:40. > :09:47.if we have the powers of independence. Given that you seem to
:09:48. > :09:51.be promising aid permanent socialist near Varna, if Scotland is
:09:52. > :09:54.independent, if you are right of centre in Scotland, and I understand
:09:55. > :09:59.that is a minority pursuit where you are, but it would be a big mistake
:10:00. > :10:05.to vote for independence, in that case, wouldn't it? No, because the
:10:06. > :10:10.whole point of independence is that people get the country they want,
:10:11. > :10:14.and the government a vote for. So, right of centre people should not
:10:15. > :10:18.vote for independence? No, because people who are of that political
:10:19. > :10:22.persuasion in Scotland get the opportunity to vote for parties
:10:23. > :10:26.which represent that persuasion and if they can persuade a majority to
:10:27. > :10:30.vote likewise, then they will get a government which reflects that. That
:10:31. > :10:34.is the essence of independence. Right now, we have a Westminster
:10:35. > :10:37.government which most people in Scotland rejected at the last
:10:38. > :10:42.general election. That is hardly democratic. It is right and proper
:10:43. > :10:45.that the SNP, as the current government, points out the
:10:46. > :11:01.opportunities that would be opening up. Can I just clarify one thing,
:11:02. > :11:08.when we spoke on The Daily Politics earlier last week, you made it clear
:11:09. > :11:12.to me that Alex Salmond, we know he wants to debate with David Cameron,
:11:13. > :11:22.but you made it clear to me that he would debate with Alistair Darling
:11:23. > :11:25.as well, and Mr Carmichael... He made it clear yesterday. Well, he
:11:26. > :11:28.said to the BBC this morning that he would only debate with these people
:11:29. > :11:34.after he had had a debate with Mr Cameron, so who is right? I was
:11:35. > :11:37.making the point last week, and Alex Salmond was making it yesterday and
:11:38. > :11:42.this morning - let's have that agreement by David Cameron to come
:11:43. > :11:48.and debate with Alex Salmond, and then Alex Salmond, just like me
:11:49. > :11:52.will debate with allcomers. So if he does not get the David Cameron
:11:53. > :11:57.debate, then he will not do the others, is that right? Let's focus
:11:58. > :12:05.on is wading David Cameron to do the right thing. So, in other words he
:12:06. > :12:11.will not debate, yes or no? Members of the SNP government... We know
:12:12. > :12:16.that, but what about Alex Salmond? He said yesterday, we will debate
:12:17. > :12:20.with all sorts of people, including the people you have spoken about,
:12:21. > :12:39.but David Cameron should not be let off the hook just putting aside the
:12:40. > :12:44.independence issue, energy prices are now even playing into the SNP,
:12:45. > :12:51.so every political party has to do something about energy prices. Yes,
:12:52. > :12:54.it is clearly it is interesting is the difference between the SNP and
:12:55. > :12:58.the Labour approach. Ed Miliband electrified the party conference
:12:59. > :13:02.season when he said he would freeze energy prices for 20 months,
:13:03. > :13:07.seemingly having an amazing control over the energy market, where we
:13:08. > :13:11.know that essentially what pushes prices up the wholesale prices on
:13:12. > :13:16.world market. What Nicola Sturgeon is talking about is actually saying,
:13:17. > :13:20.this amount is added to your bills for green levies, and we are going
:13:21. > :13:25.to take them off your bills and they will be paid out of general taxation
:13:26. > :13:28.in an independent Scotland. That is a credible government, making a
:13:29. > :13:33.credible case, very different to what Labour is saying, although
:13:34. > :13:37.playing to the same agenda. So, Labour has got a populist policy,
:13:38. > :13:42.the SNP has also got a populist policy, the one group of people that
:13:43. > :13:51.do not have a decent response to this is the coalition? Exactly. What
:13:52. > :13:55.the SNP also have is a magic money pot, so that speech yesterday, you
:13:56. > :14:00.are right, it was very left wing, social democratic, but there was
:14:01. > :14:04.none of the icing like Labour has been talking about, with fiscal
:14:05. > :14:08.responsibility. I think that is the difference between the two. We know
:14:09. > :14:12.what the Tories would really like to do, all of these green levies which
:14:13. > :14:16.were put on our bills in the good times, when they were going to be
:14:17. > :14:23.the greenest party ever, the Tories would like to say, let's just wipe
:14:24. > :14:29.out some of them, put the rest on to some general government spending,
:14:30. > :14:34.but they have a problem, which is in the Department of Energy and Climate
:14:35. > :14:40.Change. Not only that, they really are stuck now. But there is
:14:41. > :14:46.something in the free schools debate this morning, the parties are now
:14:47. > :14:50.determined to send a message to their potential voters at the next
:14:51. > :14:54.election, that they are trying to fight their coalition partners. Do
:14:55. > :14:58.not expected any change in coalition policy or free schools policy before
:14:59. > :15:02.the election, but we can expect to hear the parties try to pretend that
:15:03. > :15:07.they are taking on their coalition partners. Mr Clegg has said, we
:15:08. > :15:11.would put this free schools policy into our manifesto, so is it not
:15:12. > :15:15.possible that the Tories will say, if you give us an overall majority,
:15:16. > :15:19.we will cut your electricity bill because we will get rid of these
:15:20. > :15:23.green levies? I think that is entirely possible. The Tories know
:15:24. > :15:28.that they are stuck on this, they do not have a response to Ed Miliband.
:15:29. > :15:34.How much should ministers in Whitehall medal in local decisions
:15:35. > :15:37.across England? In opposition, David Cameron said he wanted a fundamental
:15:38. > :15:40.shift of power from Whitehall to local people. He said, when one size
:15:41. > :16:02.fits all solution is... Eric Pickles described it as "an
:16:03. > :16:07.historic shift of power". But the Communitites and Local Government
:16:08. > :16:10.Secretary can't stop meddling. In the past few months Mr Pickles has
:16:11. > :16:14.tried to ban councils from using CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine
:16:15. > :16:19.motorists... Told councils how to act quicker to shut down illegal
:16:20. > :16:23.travellers' sites... Criticised councils who want to raise council
:16:24. > :16:29.tax... Insisted councils release land to residents hoping to build
:16:30. > :16:34.their own property... And stated new homes should have a special built in
:16:35. > :16:36.bin storage section. It seems not a week goes by without a policy
:16:37. > :16:41.announcement from the hyper active Mr Pickles. So is the government
:16:42. > :16:45.still committed to localism, or is it all about centralism now?
:16:46. > :16:55.And Communities Secretary Eric Pickles joins me now for the Sunday
:16:56. > :17:03.Interview. Welcome. Nice to be here. You said
:17:04. > :17:13.in July you were going to give town halls the power to wreak their local
:17:14. > :17:19.magic. So why issue diktats from Westminster? It is not about giving
:17:20. > :17:27.power to local councils, it is going beyond that to local people. If
:17:28. > :17:32.local councils refuse to open up their books, we have to go straight
:17:33. > :17:38.to local people. You have attacked councillors using so-called spy
:17:39. > :17:43.cameras to enforce parking rules. Why is that your business? Because
:17:44. > :17:50.there is an injustice taking place. You cannot use fines to raise money
:17:51. > :17:58.and that is plainly happening. If you get yourself a ticket from a
:17:59. > :18:02.CCTV, it could be days or weeks before that lands on your doorstep
:18:03. > :18:08.and you have virtually no possibility to be able to defend
:18:09. > :18:12.yourself. But just leave it to people to vote out the council then.
:18:13. > :18:18.We are trying to enforce the law and it clearly states that you cannot
:18:19. > :18:24.use parking fines in order to fund general rate. So why are you not
:18:25. > :18:30.taking them to court if they are breaking the law? There have been a
:18:31. > :18:38.number of court cases taken by local residents. I am there to stand by
:18:39. > :18:44.local residents. Your even trying to micromanage, allowing motorist s to
:18:45. > :18:51.park for 15 minutes in local high street. Why is that your business?
:18:52. > :18:55.I'm trying to ensure that local authorities understand the
:18:56. > :19:02.importance of the town centre. If you look at all opinion polls, right
:19:03. > :19:06.now there is a five-minute leeway but there are many cases of people
:19:07. > :19:13.being jumped on by parking officials for quite trivial things. It is
:19:14. > :19:18.about saying, surely I can go and get a pint of milk. But a party that
:19:19. > :19:25.dines out on localism, that is a matter for local people, not the men
:19:26. > :19:31.in Whitehall. I have to be on the side of local people. That person
:19:32. > :19:37.who wants to go and get a pint of milk. Ultimately it is a matter for
:19:38. > :19:41.them. It is a matter for the council. But a little bit of
:19:42. > :19:47.criticism is not a bad thing. You have now declared war on the wheelie
:19:48. > :19:51.bin and suggested that new homes should have built in storage
:19:52. > :20:04.sections. You just cannot help meddling! I suppose that is
:20:05. > :20:12.possible. You are a meddler! I am in charge of building regulations and
:20:13. > :20:18.planning. So I may have some responsibility there. Another one,
:20:19. > :20:28.interfering in local planning decisions. A couple of places, you
:20:29. > :20:34.ruled in favour of developers. They want to build over 200 houses
:20:35. > :20:41.against the wishes of the parish and district councils. The local MP said
:20:42. > :20:49.the Secretary of State's decision runs roughshod over any concept of
:20:50. > :20:53.localism. Now I have to be a blushing violet because of course
:20:54. > :21:08.this is still potentially subject to judicial review. I have to act
:21:09. > :21:16.properly. And Apple went is entitled to justice. -- an applicant. A local
:21:17. > :21:20.authority has a duty to ensure that is adequate housing for people in
:21:21. > :21:26.their area. This was not a decision that I took as a personal decision,
:21:27. > :21:33.it was on the advice of an inspector. But you contradict what
:21:34. > :21:37.David Cameron himself said in 2 12, he spoke about a vision where we
:21:38. > :21:44.give communities much more say and local control. People in villages
:21:45. > :21:53.fear big housing estates being plonked from above. You have just
:21:54. > :22:02.done exactly that. After a proper quasi judicial enquiry. What we have
:22:03. > :22:10.is planning framework which local people can decide where it goes But
:22:11. > :22:15.they cannot say, nothing here. They have to have a five-year housing
:22:16. > :22:18.supply. Previous to this government decided exactly where houses would
:22:19. > :22:26.go, now local people can take the lead. Anna Silbury said because of
:22:27. > :22:31.the way your department rules, local authorities now have no alternative
:22:32. > :22:41.but to agree development on green belt land. I do not accept that I
:22:42. > :22:49.think around Nottingham there are particular problems with regards to
:22:50. > :23:00.the green belt. The matter has been referred back.
:23:01. > :23:00.the green belt. The matter has been want to see development on the green
:23:01. > :23:07.belt but on Brownfield site. We want to see underused land. But you have
:23:08. > :23:14.to remember why we have the green belt. Not
:23:15. > :23:14.to remember why we have the green nice, it is their to prevent
:23:15. > :23:19.conurbations bumping into one another. Your
:23:20. > :23:24.conurbations bumping into one is vocal about the need to deal
:23:25. > :23:24.what he calls the historic under provision of housing. Shelter says
:23:25. > :23:36.we need 250,000 new homes per year. provision of housing. Shelter says
:23:37. > :23:36.Houston statistics are getting there, but nowhere near that. -
:23:37. > :23:39.housing. You cannot there, but nowhere near that. -
:23:40. > :23:50.localism agenda as well as meeting housing demand. I do not accept
:23:51. > :23:57.that. We inherited a position where the lowest level of building since
:23:58. > :24:05.the 1920s was in place. But it has steadily improved. It does take a
:24:06. > :24:08.while. You cannot have a localism agenda where people call the shots
:24:09. > :24:14.on housing as well as meeting the housing demand. People have a duty
:24:15. > :24:19.to ensure that future generations have somewhere to live. You cannot
:24:20. > :24:26.pull up the drawbridge. There is nothing incompatible between that
:24:27. > :24:31.and localism. Because someone has to be the voice of those people who are
:24:32. > :24:39.going to live there and to make sure there is the proper amount. Plans
:24:40. > :24:44.now exist for more than 150,000 homes to be built on protected land,
:24:45. > :24:49.including the green belt. That will mean riding over local concerns
:24:50. > :24:53.Each application will be taken on its own merits. To suggest that
:24:54. > :24:58.there is an assault on the green belt is as far from the truth as you
:24:59. > :25:03.can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell get his job back if the years
:25:04. > :25:08.exonerated? I would be honoured to sit with Andrew Mitchell in the
:25:09. > :25:14.Cabinet. I have always believed his version. But it is a matter for the
:25:15. > :25:18.Prime Minister who he has in government. He would have no problem
:25:19. > :25:25.in seeing him back in Cabinet? Absolutely not. Your mother answered
:25:26. > :25:31.Vulcan junior minister Nick balls said about the Royal Charter for the
:25:32. > :25:36.press, there's nothing we have done that troubles me as much as this. Is
:25:37. > :25:42.that your view? It is not. I accept the compromise agreement put
:25:43. > :25:48.together. If the press want to have an additional protection that the
:25:49. > :25:53.Royal Charter offers, then they can move into the system. But if they
:25:54. > :26:01.want to continue independently that is acceptable to me. But you
:26:02. > :26:05.previously echoed Thomas Jefferson, you said for a free society to
:26:06. > :26:12.operate the river of a free press has to flow without restriction
:26:13. > :26:18.That is what I said at the time We had to find a compromise. And that
:26:19. > :26:26.seems to me to be a better compromise. Let me just show you
:26:27. > :26:38.this little montage of pictures that we have. I could not be happier
:26:39. > :26:50.Then you are in the Desert and there you are in San Francisco. Then you
:26:51. > :27:01.are in the casino. That is my personal favourite. These students
:27:02. > :27:05.took a cardboard cutout of you and took it round the world with them.
:27:06. > :27:10.Did you ever think you would become a student icon? I always felt
:27:11. > :27:19.secretly that that might happen one day. But it came earlier in my
:27:20. > :27:27.career than I thought! Why would they do that? I think they thought I
:27:28. > :27:37.could do with a bit of an airing! I went to Norfolk earlier, but that
:27:38. > :27:39.looks better. Thank you. On Wednesday senior police folk
:27:40. > :27:44.including chief constables, will be questioned by MPs about what's
:27:45. > :27:47.become known as Plebgate. That's the incident in Downing Street last year
:27:48. > :27:49.which led to the resignation of the government chief whip Andrew
:27:50. > :27:51.Mitchell. Last week the Independent Police Complaints Commission
:27:52. > :27:56.questioned the "honesty and integrity" of police officers who
:27:57. > :27:59.met Mr Mitchell following the row. So do scandals like this affect
:28:00. > :28:06.public trust in the police? Here's Adam Fleming.
:28:07. > :28:12.It's a story of politics, the police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew
:28:13. > :28:18.Mitchell, but an MP's researcher called Alex Bryce and his partner
:28:19. > :28:22.Iain Feis. It started on a summer night in
:28:23. > :28:26.2011. They'd been in Parliament After a few words with a police
:28:27. > :28:31.officer, Ian was wrestled to the ground. Alex came to have a look and
:28:32. > :28:35.the same thing happened to him. Both were arrested and charged. These
:28:36. > :28:40.pictures emerged on day one of their trial. A trial that was halted
:28:41. > :28:50.because the police version of events just didn't match the footage. A lot
:28:51. > :28:55.of people with incidence like this which we experienced, people think
:28:56. > :28:59.there is no smoke without fire. So when we said we did nothing wrong,
:29:00. > :29:05.people would think police just would not do that. There is always that
:29:06. > :29:09.underlying view that some people have. I think that has been
:29:10. > :29:13.challenged and people who know us believe that. This year the Met
:29:14. > :29:20.apologised and paid compensation. And it's led to an unlikely sort of
:29:21. > :29:24.friendship. When the truth came out about the Andrew Mitchell story I
:29:25. > :29:30.actually sent him an e-mail to congratulate him about the truth
:29:31. > :29:33.coming out. He did send a reply acknowledging that. So where are we
:29:34. > :29:37.with THAT saga? Remember last September? Andrew Mitchell had a row
:29:38. > :29:41.with police at the gates of Downing Street about his bike. He lost his
:29:42. > :29:47.job as chief whip after accusations he called the officers plebs. That,
:29:48. > :29:50.he's always denied. This week the police watchdog the IPCC suggested
:29:51. > :29:56.that three officers may have lied about a meeting with him at the
:29:57. > :29:59.height of the scandal. Add that to the charge sheet of cases that
:30:00. > :30:05.haven't exactly flattered the police. Like the revelation of a
:30:06. > :30:08.cover up over Hillsborough. The prosecution of an officer from the
:30:09. > :30:13.Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson during protests in 2009. Along with
:30:14. > :30:19.news that undercover officers were told to smear the family of Stephen
:30:20. > :30:21.Lawrence. During Thursday's protest by teachers in Westminster the
:30:22. > :30:27.police operation was really, really relaxed. And recent scandals have
:30:28. > :30:31.done nothing to affect society's view of the boys and girls in blue -
:30:32. > :30:39.or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of the public say they trust the
:30:40. > :30:40.police. And that's not budged since pollsters started measuring it 0
:30:41. > :30:53.years ago. Of course, in Britain, crime is
:30:54. > :30:58.down, so the perception might be that the police is doing a good
:30:59. > :31:02.job. And the rank-and-file recently seamed pretty chipper at this awards
:31:03. > :31:08.ceremony. Is it a good time to be a police officer? It is a good time.
:31:09. > :31:13.Despite all of the headlines? Still a good time. But speak to officers
:31:14. > :31:17.privately, and they say Plebgate is affecting how the public see them.
:31:18. > :31:21.Some of them also think politicians, the Tories especially,
:31:22. > :31:25.are enjoying that a little too much. Adam Fleming reporting there. Going
:31:26. > :31:35.head-to-head on this issue of trust in the police, a Sunday Mirror
:31:36. > :31:42.columnist and Peter Kirkham, former chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let
:31:43. > :31:48.me come to you first. Plebgate, the cover-ups over John Charles De
:31:49. > :31:52.menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson, the industrial deception over
:31:53. > :31:56.Hillsborough, why is the culture of deceit so prevalent in the police? I
:31:57. > :32:00.do not agree there is a cultural deceit. These are all individual
:32:01. > :32:05.incidents which raise individual issues. I would suggest that your
:32:06. > :32:12.short headline summarising each of them has taken the most negative
:32:13. > :32:17.view of it. How can you be positive about the police's behaviour over
:32:18. > :32:21.Hillsborough? It remains to be seen with the inquiry but we are probably
:32:22. > :32:26.talking about a handful of senior officers, dealing with the
:32:27. > :32:34.paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies being doctored by the police. Well,
:32:35. > :32:38.those testimonies were true to start with, so the officers have told the
:32:39. > :32:45.truth, and they have been changed for some reason. By the police. By
:32:46. > :32:49.the police all lawyers we have got this thing that the police conflates
:32:50. > :32:58.everything. There are 43 forces, there is ACPO, there is the College
:32:59. > :33:02.Of Policing... People say it was a handful of police officers, it
:33:03. > :33:07.wasn't, it was six senior police officers who were alleged to have
:33:08. > :33:11.doctored 106 D4 statements. Even today we are hearing that more than
:33:12. > :33:18.1000 officers are yet to be spoken to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we
:33:19. > :33:25.pretend that Hillsborough, and some of these examples, are the exception
:33:26. > :33:30.rather than the rule? What is the evidence that this is now prevalent
:33:31. > :33:33.in our police? I think there is a lot of evidence, and Plebgate is
:33:34. > :33:38.probably the thing which has clinched it. The public want to
:33:39. > :33:43.know, how deep does this girl? The audacity of a group of policemen who
:33:44. > :33:47.think they can set up a Cabinet minister. Five of those who were
:33:48. > :33:50.arrested and bailed still have not been charged. One of those officers
:33:51. > :33:54.actually wrote an e-mail pretending to be a member of the public. I do
:33:55. > :33:59.not see what the problem is in prosecuting them for that. Taking
:34:00. > :34:04.Plebgate, there are loads of different bits of that incident.
:34:05. > :34:07.There is the officers on duty in Downing Street, the issue of who
:34:08. > :34:11.leaked the story to the Sun, there are the officers who claim to have
:34:12. > :34:14.been there who would appear not to have been there, and then we have
:34:15. > :34:17.got the West Midlands meeting issue, which has sort of been
:34:18. > :34:27.resolved this week. There has been misconduct. But at a lower level.
:34:28. > :34:31.But it is the audacity of an organisation which thinks it can
:34:32. > :34:34.take on an elected minister and destroy him for their own political
:34:35. > :34:39.purposes, at a time when the Government are cutting please pay,
:34:40. > :34:43.when they are freezing their pensions and reducing their numbers.
:34:44. > :34:46.It looks very much to all of us, the public, that the police are at war
:34:47. > :34:50.with the government, and they are going to do anything they can to
:34:51. > :34:55.discredit the Government. The police would have every reason to be at war
:34:56. > :35:03.with the Government, because there if there is a crisis of trust... But
:35:04. > :35:10.it looks like they fitted up a Cabinet minister. That remains to be
:35:11. > :35:15.seen, it is being investigated. We know that those Birmingham officers,
:35:16. > :35:20.they totally misrepresented to, if not lied outright, about what was
:35:21. > :35:22.said. Again, that is a misrepresentation of what happened.
:35:23. > :35:26.If you actually go and look at what is said, it is plain from the
:35:27. > :35:35.context, they were saying, he has told us nothing new. But he had in
:35:36. > :35:41.the transcript, it said he hadn't. He would not admit he had used the
:35:42. > :35:45.word pleb. He apologised profusely, he said it would never happen again,
:35:46. > :35:52.he said many things that he had not said before. I agree, which is
:35:53. > :35:55.presumably... Thereon many police forces in this country, they have
:35:56. > :36:01.one of the toughest jobs in the land, they end up getting involved
:36:02. > :36:07.in almost anything which happens in society, and there are obviously a
:36:08. > :36:12.number of difficult examples, but what is the evidence that it is out
:36:13. > :36:18.of hand, other than just several bad apples? This bad apples argument, we
:36:19. > :36:20.have some amazing police people, thank God, but it is because of
:36:21. > :36:23.have some amazing police people, those that we have to root out the
:36:24. > :36:28.bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are
:36:29. > :36:31.standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does
:36:32. > :36:35.not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with
:36:36. > :36:40.a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to
:36:41. > :36:43.be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution...
:36:44. > :36:51.For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is
:36:52. > :36:57.there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,
:36:58. > :37:01.you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved
:37:02. > :37:05.that anybody has been fitted up. We are yet to hear what happened at the
:37:06. > :37:10.gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing
:37:11. > :37:17.Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had
:37:18. > :37:27.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.
:37:28. > :37:33.That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All
:37:34. > :37:44.right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as
:37:45. > :37:48.a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics
:37:49. > :37:52.should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on
:37:53. > :37:56.strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for
:37:57. > :38:02.that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a
:38:03. > :38:08.more competent and properly resourced Independent police
:38:09. > :38:12.commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police
:38:13. > :38:19.officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force
:38:20. > :38:25.we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will
:38:26. > :38:28.leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking
:38:29. > :38:40.to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead,
:38:41. > :38:51.East Midlands manufacturers say they want us to stay in Europe, but what
:38:52. > :38:56.do you think? Were England, aren't we? I think we can do it ourselves.
:38:57. > :39:00.I live and work in Germany right now and I assume that is easy because we
:39:01. > :39:03.are part of Europe. And as another local authority sells
:39:04. > :39:11.off its care homes for the elderly, we look at what the future holds for
:39:12. > :39:14.our ageing population. Running a business to make money out of
:39:15. > :39:23.elderly care I don't believe should be a factor. The care and compassion
:39:24. > :39:26.has to come first in my view. Hello, I'm John Hess. My guests this
:39:27. > :39:29.week ` the Liberal Democrat's MEP for the East Midlands, Bill
:39:30. > :39:34.Newton`Dunn, and the Labour leader of Derbyshire County Council, Anne
:39:35. > :39:37.Western. Welcome to you both and first ` jobs. Unemployment in the
:39:38. > :39:41.East Midlands is bucking the national trend and heading in the
:39:42. > :39:45.wrong direction. Figures this month showed a slight rise of 1,000 in the
:39:46. > :39:47.number of people out of work here, whilst nationally the figure was
:39:48. > :39:50.falling. Labour's Ed Balls has been on the
:39:51. > :39:53.patch talking about his party's plans for creating jobs. The Shadow
:39:54. > :39:56.Chancellor was at Fisher Scientific, a logistics business in Loughborough
:39:57. > :40:02.to meet staff and apprentices ` and try his hand at the world of work.
:40:03. > :40:11.He said Labour would concentrate on combating youth unemployment. We're
:40:12. > :40:15.saying repeat the tax on bank bonuses and guarantee a job for
:40:16. > :40:20.every young person. I grew up in Nottingham in the 1980s where there
:40:21. > :40:23.was long`term unemployment becoming entrenched for young people. We
:40:24. > :40:31.cannot repeat that mistake. Let's get young people back to work. Ed
:40:32. > :40:37.Balls talking about his own experience there. But this is a
:40:38. > :40:40.problem across Europe now, isn't it? Well, there are different
:40:41. > :40:44.predicaments in different countries. In Spain, youth
:40:45. > :40:50.unemployment is scarily high. In Germany, it was compulsory for
:40:51. > :40:54.businesses to supply apprenticeships. Should we do that
:40:55. > :40:58.here? It is voluntary in Britain. I would like to see everybody taking
:40:59. > :41:08.youngsters on and giving them a skilled. Anne, that is an idea at a
:41:09. > :41:13.national level. What about local government ideas? In Derbyshire, we
:41:14. > :41:17.have a good apprenticeship scheme. We are recruiting at a rapid rate.
:41:18. > :41:23.We have to get the balance right though because we don't want to
:41:24. > :41:28.substitute apprenticeships the jobs. We're not being so successful
:41:29. > :41:31.getting apprenticeships into the private sector. I was talking to the
:41:32. > :41:36.chamber of commerce last week and the offer we are making does not
:41:37. > :41:42.seem to be the right offer to appeal to businesses. There is a small
:41:43. > :41:45.amount of money as an incentive but they are looking for more support.
:41:46. > :41:50.Ed Balls was talking about finding the money to pay for this job is
:41:51. > :41:55.guarantee Labour was talking about to get anyone under 25 either into
:41:56. > :42:02.work or training, is that an IDA European governments have been
:42:03. > :42:03.talking about? Absolutely. In these times where everyone 0
:42:04. > :42:07.talking about? Absolutely. In these times where everyone is short of
:42:08. > :42:11.cash, it is about finding the money. Politics is about priorities. Some
:42:12. > :42:20.European countries are saying, we have to help our youngsters. For
:42:21. > :42:23.county like yours, Anne, what are the consequences of long`term youth
:42:24. > :42:28.unemployment? Well, it is disastrous, isn't it? It is not just
:42:29. > :42:33.now, but the future. If young people can't find a way into the workplace
:42:34. > :42:37.then they become an overlooked generation because you never get
:42:38. > :42:41.those opportunities again. So we're trying to pull everyone together
:42:42. > :42:44.across the county, colleges, businesses and other councils as
:42:45. > :42:51.well, to get to the bottom of what we can do best to support the youth.
:42:52. > :42:55.This is massive youth unemployment happening on your watch. What is the
:42:56. > :43:01.answer? I would like to see Nick Clegg spending more money on it. If
:43:02. > :43:07.he can get more money out of the Chancellor to give young people more
:43:08. > :43:12.skills and get them apprenticeships or training is `` or whatever is
:43:13. > :43:15.possible. Well, jobs again ` this time
:43:16. > :43:20.European ones. The subject of whether to be in or out of the EU is
:43:21. > :43:23.back again. A new survey by the manufacturing organisation EEF has
:43:24. > :43:29.found that 85% of its businesses want to stay in the EU. It matters
:43:30. > :43:32.here in the East Midlands in particular, because of the important
:43:33. > :43:42.role manufacturing still plays in our economy.
:43:43. > :43:48.302,000 people in the East Midlands worked in the manufacturing sector.
:43:49. > :43:52.That is 13.9% of the workforce, the highest in the UK. What's more, it's
:43:53. > :43:58.on the increase. In the last three years, the number of manufacturing
:43:59. > :44:08.jobs in our region has increased by 16%, compared with a national
:44:09. > :44:12.average of `1%. Arnab Dutt is a Leicestershire businessmen are
:44:13. > :44:15.alarmed by talk of leaving the European Union. He supplies and
:44:16. > :44:21.equipment for escalators around the world. We have ten people working in
:44:22. > :44:25.our factory. On a monthly basis, 30% of output is going to Europe. The
:44:26. > :44:32.wheels you see behind me are on their way to Germany next week. I
:44:33. > :44:38.passionately is `` believe it is important we stay in the UK. Back in
:44:39. > :44:45.the EU. We are part of a much larger supply chain. If the companies that
:44:46. > :44:49.export to Europe disappear, we will be in big trouble. The strength of
:44:50. > :44:56.being in the US we are part of a collective bargaining group. The UK
:44:57. > :45:00.has an disproportionate amount of leverage when we negotiate with the
:45:01. > :45:06.US and Asia. So by staying in the EEO, we have greater access to the
:45:07. > :45:08.world markets than if we were on our own.
:45:09. > :45:11.Arnab Dutt, and his strong case to stay in the European Union. But not
:45:12. > :45:13.everyone in the business community is so sure.
:45:14. > :45:16.We're joined by Stephen Castens, who runs a Nottingham`based advertising
:45:17. > :45:19.and marketing firm which operates globally. He's also a Conservative
:45:20. > :45:25.candidate for next year's European parliamentary elections.
:45:26. > :45:29.Stephen, the fact is that the EU matters for the economy of the East
:45:30. > :45:44.Midlands. Aren't we risking any revival by the Euro`sceptic talk of
:45:45. > :45:50.a referendum? Yes, it could be, but the thing we've got to realise with
:45:51. > :45:56.all the Eurosceptic talk is Europe is very important, whether we are in
:45:57. > :46:00.or out, both nationally and locally. It is not going to be the case that
:46:01. > :46:06.if we left we would then suddenly go out to the middle Atlantic and bury
:46:07. > :46:13.our heads in the ocean. We have to have a strong working relationship
:46:14. > :46:18.with Europe. If David Cameron doesn't get is renegotiated terms
:46:19. > :46:19.and we go to a referendum, what happens? 0
:46:20. > :46:22.and we go to a referendum, what happens? Do you think the UK should
:46:23. > :46:29.come out if we don't get those improved terms? It is very difficult
:46:30. > :46:35.to say, because it entirely depends on what he actually does get. What
:46:36. > :46:43.do you want him to get? I wanted to get a strong renegotiation. On what?
:46:44. > :46:50.On the way Europe works. It is important the business, we need that
:46:51. > :46:56.open market, we need the opportunity to export. But, on the other hand,
:46:57. > :47:04.what we don't want us some of the difficult bureaucratic elements that
:47:05. > :47:09.keep creeping in. Arnab Dutt was telling us he registered a patent
:47:10. > :47:13.for one of his products and he said that the ?700 and filling in one
:47:14. > :47:29.form he could get protection in 28 countries across the youth. `` the
:47:30. > :47:35.EU. That sounds great, that doesn't sound like bureaucracy. It is very
:47:36. > :47:38.good. But it is about the cost of running everything in Brussels. That
:47:39. > :47:45.whole bureaucratic element is not giving us the best deal. Bill,
:47:46. > :47:50.you've been a member of the European Parliament longer than most. You
:47:51. > :47:57.must feel you're bashing your pro`EU head against a Euro sceptical wall.
:47:58. > :48:02.It is healthy there is a debate. There are things that need changing,
:48:03. > :48:08.nothing is perfect. It is eight compromise of 28 countries, so it
:48:09. > :48:13.will not be perfect. But we have to stay because we have to have a say
:48:14. > :48:19.and a voice and a boat to influence the others. If we quit and become
:48:20. > :48:26.like Norway, who just received faxes about what has been decided, that is
:48:27. > :48:29.thrown away our influence. UKIP are not going to be satisfied with what
:48:30. > :48:34.your programmers at the moment, which seems to be wanting the best
:48:35. > :48:38.of both worlds. They are clear, and that will be attracted to the
:48:39. > :48:45.electorate, won't it? It is an easy message to give but I think the
:48:46. > :48:52.electorate are wise to this. What we have to remember is the whole
:48:53. > :48:58.origins of the new go back to the 1970s when it was a brave difficult
:48:59. > :49:01.situation. The whole spectre of the Second World War was hanging over
:49:02. > :49:08.things, and a lot of countries were thinking about that, as were the
:49:09. > :49:18.eastern European countries. Anne, can you imagine with the UK out of
:49:19. > :49:23.the EU? No, I agree, you have to be on the inside to change things. It
:49:24. > :49:30.is easy for people to see what we pretend to be EU, we don't always
:49:31. > :49:33.see what we get out. There are big investments in Chesterfield,
:49:34. > :49:39.including the market Hall investment. European money is
:49:40. > :49:44.helping us to roll out broadband across the country. There are a
:49:45. > :49:50.whole load of rural benefits that people perhaps don't act knowledge.
:49:51. > :49:54.If we do have a referendum, you will have a say on Europe. And Des has
:49:55. > :50:08.been out in Nottingham to get your views.
:50:09. > :50:12.IU in out? In. I don't want Britain to be isolated from a business point
:50:13. > :50:17.of view. We need to be able to export to Europe, to be able to
:50:18. > :50:23.climb out of the recession. We've got a business, and personally I
:50:24. > :50:28.would stay out of Europe. Why? Because this country needs to stand
:50:29. > :50:32.alone. You don't need anybody telling you what you've got to do,
:50:33. > :50:40.what you can't do with your business. All these EU laws have a
:50:41. > :50:47.vast impact on everything. I said we should be in Europe. The simple
:50:48. > :50:55.reason is, it should be able to give us more jobs and opportunities to do
:50:56. > :51:02.other things as well as business abroad. I think we ought to come
:51:03. > :51:07.out. Wearing blender, we can do it ourselves. I live and work in
:51:08. > :51:11.Germany now and I assume that is easy because we are in Europe and we
:51:12. > :51:21.have good relationships. There are a lot of advantages. Does it really
:51:22. > :51:22.matter what I think? Our street interviews showed 0
:51:23. > :51:24.matter what I think? Our street interviews showed that
:51:25. > :51:28.people are actually quite well informed on the issue and have a
:51:29. > :51:36.view. Stephen, why wait until after the general election for a
:51:37. > :51:42.referendum? Let's have it now. It's too soon, the debate has to happen.
:51:43. > :51:46.There has to be discussion. If we do get the opportunity to have a
:51:47. > :51:51.renegotiation ` let's remember a lot of other countries are supporting
:51:52. > :51:58.that as well ` then it is very important that we put our best team
:51:59. > :52:02.forward. We should put people from all sides into that negotiation and
:52:03. > :52:06.get the best for Britain. But it is a long process, it could take two or
:52:07. > :52:13.three years to get a proper negotiation. Anne detailed some of
:52:14. > :52:18.the benefits for her part of Derbyshire, is that not what the
:52:19. > :52:24.pro`Europeans have to do? Spell out in practical terms what it means for
:52:25. > :52:29.ordinary people? Yes, and the report you mentioned earlier actually says
:52:30. > :52:34.that public opinion is due to very poor information and not knowing the
:52:35. > :52:43.facts. I would welcome a referendum. I'm certain it's coming. It has to
:52:44. > :52:47.be after the renegotiation, not before. Then the public can get the
:52:48. > :52:55.real facts and I'm certain they will vote to stay in. Within the Labour
:52:56. > :53:00.Party, it strikes me that they have their own problems on this issue. I
:53:01. > :53:07.can think of at least two of your colleagues who want out. Yes, they
:53:08. > :53:11.have their own views. The discussion today is around business. Given what
:53:12. > :53:16.we've said about the East Midlands being centred on manufacturing, we
:53:17. > :53:20.cannot as a country stand alone. We are not self`sufficient. We import
:53:21. > :53:27.and we export. If you look at Toyota, over 80% of their production
:53:28. > :53:32.is exported to the EU. Anything creating a barrier there would have
:53:33. > :53:36.an impact on their business. What do you say to people like Steve and use
:53:37. > :53:50.a future economic growth is not going to come within the EU? ``
:53:51. > :53:55.people like Stephen who say. We've got much more strength than 28
:53:56. > :54:00.individual countries trying to wake `` try to make their way into new
:54:01. > :54:04.markets. As long as we stay in, business is on a level playing
:54:05. > :54:10.field. There are too many examples where we are over interpreting
:54:11. > :54:14.implementation of legislation. What can be done about it? It is
:54:15. > :54:25.Westminster. The House of Commons fails to do its job of scrutinising
:54:26. > :54:32.legislation. Next: an issue that's likely to
:54:33. > :54:35.affect all of us in one way or another ` how we care for our
:54:36. > :54:38.growing elderly population. The squeeze on councils means they're
:54:39. > :54:41.looking to cut back on the cost of providing care. This week, Leicester
:54:42. > :54:45.City Council became the latest to announce big changes ` selling off
:54:46. > :54:48.half of its homes, and closing the rest. Our political reporter Tim
:54:49. > :54:59.Parker's been taking a look at the challenges facing councils.
:55:00. > :55:02.It is becoming a rare sight, residents in a home owned by the
:55:03. > :55:08.local authority. But the people living here are pretty happy with
:55:09. > :55:13.how things are run now. The food is all right. At night time I've got my
:55:14. > :55:19.tally and the phone. I'm not wanting for anything. It's as good as being
:55:20. > :55:24.at home before `` because you are so well looked after. They are very
:55:25. > :55:30.good to hours and kind. The food is beautiful. What more could you want?
:55:31. > :55:36.When you're on your own, you realise how important these places are and
:55:37. > :55:41.how much you really like it. This is a home in South Derbyshire, one of
:55:42. > :55:44.26 elderly persons homes owned by Derbyshire County Council. But
:55:45. > :55:49.across the East Midlands, the trend is to sell homes to private
:55:50. > :55:53.operators. This week, Leicester City Council is the latest to announce
:55:54. > :55:59.the closure of all eight of its homes. We are in tough times. That
:56:00. > :56:05.doesn't mean we have to stop caring, that doesn't mean we don't
:56:06. > :56:09.do the work with commitment and compassion, but it does mean that,
:56:10. > :56:15.in the short term, there are changes that are hard for people to come to
:56:16. > :56:18.terms with. Leicestershire County Council completed the sale of all
:56:19. > :56:25.its elderly persons homes earlier this year. We are the same as most
:56:26. > :56:29.councils. We used to have a lot and in my time at the maximum we owned
:56:30. > :56:36.is 20. We are now entirely privately operated. That's my mother when she
:56:37. > :56:40.was a nurse 40 years ago. John Wright's mum has been in this
:56:41. > :56:44.council run home for two years. He says he would be concerned if
:56:45. > :56:48.politicians decided to sell it off. Profit should not be the overriding
:56:49. > :56:53.factor. Running a business to make money out of elderly care I don't
:56:54. > :57:00.believe should be the dominating factor. The care and compassion has
:57:01. > :57:04.to come first, I think. It's a message not lost on councillors, but
:57:05. > :57:08.the most, balancing the budget is now a bigger priority.
:57:09. > :57:10.Anne, with so many of your neighbouring authorities selling off
:57:11. > :57:18.their care homes, how long can Derbyshire hold off? There are two
:57:19. > :57:22.ways of looking at dealing with the financial situation. We can either
:57:23. > :57:26.just shrink and shrink and shrink the services we got until there is
:57:27. > :57:31.nothing left, or sell them off, or we can reinvent what we do and how
:57:32. > :57:35.we do it. In the six months we've been in control, we've started to
:57:36. > :57:39.talk to partners like the NHS in the county, talking to them about what
:57:40. > :57:44.they need in terms of preventing old people ending up in hospital. Aren't
:57:45. > :57:50.other local authorities doing that as well? They may be, but our
:57:51. > :57:58.priority is doing what the people want, and what they want is council
:57:59. > :58:02.run homes. Because of the quality of care, the supervision and training,
:58:03. > :58:08.and because it is accountable. If something is wrong, they know they
:58:09. > :58:12.can take it to the council. Bill, this is happening on your
:58:13. > :58:19.watch. The Liberal Democrats are in government. Is it accept it by the
:58:20. > :58:24.rank and file? No, we are very worried, just like Anne. Populations
:58:25. > :58:31.all over Europe are getting older. The problem we have is going to be
:58:32. > :58:36.bigger in five or ten years. We are going to need to find the money. If
:58:37. > :58:40.you look at Sweden, probably the best run country in Europe, they
:58:41. > :58:45.have far higher taxation and they pay for it that way. In the `` in
:58:46. > :58:53.the UK, that is difficult to achieve in the short term. So the Lib Dems
:58:54. > :58:58.say, abolish Trident. Nick Clegg is not in favour that. I won't speak
:58:59. > :59:02.that privately, but as the coalition partner, he has to make
:59:03. > :59:08.compromises. But if we got rid of Trident, we could save a fortune the
:59:09. > :59:14.country by fighting international crime. It costs ?19 million to run
:59:15. > :59:20.your counsel homes. The overall cost to Derbyshire is ?72 million. That
:59:21. > :59:23.is a big budget that surely will come under pressure. The Prime
:59:24. > :59:28.Minister the other week said that any increasing cuts would be modest.
:59:29. > :59:33.We're trying to prioritise the care services, whether it is elderly,
:59:34. > :59:39.disabled or children people in the county. We want to support people in
:59:40. > :59:42.their own homes for longer as well so they don't have to go into
:59:43. > :59:48.residential care. If they need to, we want them to be able to have a
:59:49. > :59:58.choice. As regards to David Cameron, I think he is playing with numbers.
:59:59. > :00:00.This is not just me as a Labour council leader. There are
:00:01. > :00:04.Conservative council leaders up and down the country are doing the
:00:05. > :00:08.case. I'm afraid we have to end it there. Time for a round`up of some
:00:09. > :00:16.of the other political stories in the East Midlands this week ` here's
:00:17. > :00:19.Rob Pittam with 60 seconds. Dennis Skinner brought a harsh to
:00:20. > :00:25.the House of Commons when he told MPs of a constituent suffering from
:00:26. > :00:30.cancer who was denied benefits. For 11 months he waited for an appeal.
:00:31. > :00:39.Then his aggressive cancer took his site. Took his hearing. Then, last
:00:40. > :00:44.Friday, took his life. The MP demanded the abolition of the body
:00:45. > :00:48.assessing whether people are fit to work. It insists it provides a
:00:49. > :00:55.compassionate service. The battle for the bones of Richard
:00:56. > :00:59.the bird took a new step this week. The petition calling for the King's
:01:00. > :01:05.remains to remain in Leicester has more than 40,000 signatures.
:01:06. > :01:10.And watch out dog owners. A council is stepping up homes to match owners
:01:11. > :01:14.who fail to poop and Scoop. Those who do get the chance to win a ?50
:01:15. > :01:24.voucher and grooming session ` for the dogs, that is.
:01:25. > :01:30.That's all from us this week. Thanks to my guests. Don't forget to catch
:01:31. > :01:31.up with my latest political blog. Now, back to London.
:01:32. > :01:35.down immigration, but not in any way which links in with this. Thank you
:01:36. > :01:44.to both of you for being my guests today.
:01:45. > :01:52.Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg
:01:53. > :01:58.kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love
:01:59. > :02:05.bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by
:02:06. > :02:09.the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne.
:02:10. > :02:16.Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in
:02:17. > :02:23.the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those
:02:24. > :02:27.who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview
:02:28. > :02:38.that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on
:02:39. > :02:42.up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I
:02:43. > :02:47.do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly
:02:48. > :02:52.Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party.
:02:53. > :02:56.I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal
:02:57. > :03:01.party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it,
:03:02. > :03:06.fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should
:03:07. > :03:11.be on the liberal centre ground But is it actually veering to the left,
:03:12. > :03:16.your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any
:03:17. > :03:24.organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look
:03:25. > :03:29.inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not
:03:30. > :03:33.want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of
:03:34. > :03:37.people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards
:03:38. > :03:41.and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have
:03:42. > :03:43.got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting
:03:44. > :03:50.the deficit down, cutting crime keeping interest rates low, and
:03:51. > :03:54.also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax
:03:55. > :03:57.and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and
:03:58. > :04:01.ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us
:04:02. > :04:04.credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able
:04:05. > :04:08.to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our
:04:09. > :04:14.policies excesses in government I want us to be confident, outward
:04:15. > :04:18.looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense
:04:19. > :04:23.that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore
:04:24. > :04:27.make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance
:04:28. > :04:36.himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free
:04:37. > :04:44.schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating
:04:45. > :04:47.area, so let's explore it a bit We have had two very significant and
:04:48. > :04:51.troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn,
:04:52. > :04:54.saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other
:04:55. > :04:59.words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get
:05:00. > :05:01.on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our
:05:02. > :05:05.competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms
:05:06. > :05:11.of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are
:05:12. > :05:13.worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two
:05:14. > :05:19.thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are
:05:20. > :05:27.failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were
:05:28. > :05:30.the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting
:05:31. > :05:33.conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we
:05:34. > :05:36.are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which
:05:37. > :05:40.have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need
:05:41. > :05:45.to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good
:05:46. > :05:48.quality education in order to realise their full potential in
:05:49. > :05:55.life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I
:05:56. > :06:01.think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we
:06:02. > :06:04.should be instinctively statist and I do not think either we should be
:06:05. > :06:09.instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a
:06:10. > :06:13.restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is
:06:14. > :06:17.about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity
:06:18. > :06:21.in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education
:06:22. > :06:24.system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some
:06:25. > :06:30.schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this
:06:31. > :06:34.country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful
:06:35. > :06:48.stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success.
:06:49. > :06:52.Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right
:06:53. > :07:00.word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the
:07:01. > :07:04.Conservatives have, if you like made some advances or generous
:07:05. > :07:07.suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal
:07:08. > :07:11.Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was
:07:12. > :07:15.founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned
:07:16. > :07:20.tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am
:07:21. > :07:24.not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this
:07:25. > :07:30.on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few
:07:31. > :07:33.liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn,
:07:34. > :07:38.who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in
:07:39. > :07:42.the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats,
:07:43. > :07:52.should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no
:07:53. > :07:56.political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested
:07:57. > :08:01.that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next
:08:02. > :08:05.election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The
:08:06. > :08:10.Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates
:08:11. > :08:14.they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of
:08:15. > :08:26.the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not
:08:27. > :08:32.from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of
:08:33. > :08:34.a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living
:08:35. > :08:39.standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it
:08:40. > :08:44.was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning
:08:45. > :08:49.the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from
:08:50. > :08:54.the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he
:08:55. > :08:58.makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a
:08:59. > :09:02.guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were
:09:03. > :09:05.there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the
:09:06. > :09:09.economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth,
:09:10. > :09:14.they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne
:09:15. > :09:18.came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported
:09:19. > :09:22.free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but
:09:23. > :09:25.on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free
:09:26. > :09:30.schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David
:09:31. > :09:32.Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising,
:09:33. > :09:42.which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming
:09:43. > :09:47.right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would
:09:48. > :09:49.not get the credit anyway. Well if they diss associate themselves like
:09:50. > :09:55.this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters
:09:56. > :10:00.their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it
:10:01. > :10:04.is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters
:10:05. > :10:11.from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not
:10:12. > :10:15.Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the
:10:16. > :10:21.Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I
:10:22. > :10:27.wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be
:10:28. > :10:32.organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they
:10:33. > :10:35.have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send
:10:36. > :10:44.messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me.
:10:45. > :10:53.Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who,
:10:54. > :10:59.according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That s
:11:00. > :11:06.right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at
:11:07. > :11:11.Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from
:11:12. > :11:17.Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting
:11:18. > :11:21.that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power
:11:22. > :11:25.stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas
:11:26. > :11:29.to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the
:11:30. > :11:35.power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot
:11:36. > :11:39.of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your
:11:40. > :11:45.balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop
:11:46. > :11:49.with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which
:11:50. > :11:56.will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them.
:11:57. > :12:00.It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after
:12:01. > :12:05.George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK
:12:06. > :12:14.Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate
:12:15. > :12:19.in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and
:12:20. > :12:23.there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron
:12:24. > :12:26.trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were
:12:27. > :12:29.annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the
:12:30. > :12:35.Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George
:12:36. > :12:41.Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about
:12:42. > :12:48.any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five
:12:49. > :12:51.years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a
:12:52. > :13:02.special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go
:13:03. > :13:09.wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate
:13:10. > :13:12.this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving
:13:13. > :13:20.them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all
:13:21. > :13:24.eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the
:13:25. > :13:30.recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on
:13:31. > :13:35.which basis it can influence the result of the next general
:13:36. > :13:38.election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on
:13:39. > :13:43.Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the
:13:44. > :13:46.assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary
:13:47. > :13:55.policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means
:13:56. > :14:00.interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today.
:14:01. > :14:03.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with
:14:04. > :14:07.prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be
:14:08. > :14:14.back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday.