:00:39. > :00:52.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as
:00:53. > :00:57.Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to
:00:58. > :01:01.MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate
:01:02. > :01:06.the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that
:01:07. > :01:11.capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong
:01:12. > :01:16.arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be
:01:17. > :01:17.sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they
:01:18. > :01:26.should be covered up. In the East Midlands: The man with
:01:27. > :01:28.one arm who claims he was asked if his other would grow back at a
:01:29. > :01:30.fit`for`work assessment. And will privatising the probation
:01:31. > :01:37.service put us all authority is investigating --
:01:38. > :01:42.investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on
:01:43. > :01:49.its staff. With me as always, the best and the
:01:50. > :01:53.brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt
:01:54. > :01:56.who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they
:01:57. > :02:03.got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to
:02:04. > :02:07.a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home
:02:08. > :02:11.Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the
:02:12. > :02:15.treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met
:02:16. > :02:20.him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was
:02:21. > :02:24.prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.
:02:25. > :02:31.But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.
:02:32. > :02:34.Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.
:02:35. > :02:39.The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there
:02:40. > :02:45.enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the
:02:46. > :02:49.police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad
:02:50. > :02:53.and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for
:02:54. > :02:58.contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to
:02:59. > :03:02.prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what
:03:03. > :03:07.is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try
:03:08. > :03:15.to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from
:03:16. > :03:20.day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I
:03:21. > :03:26.knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.
:03:27. > :03:30.And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as
:03:31. > :03:35.to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not
:03:36. > :03:40.will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the
:03:41. > :03:44.Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can
:03:45. > :03:50.say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under
:03:51. > :03:56.statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This
:03:57. > :03:59.is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy
:04:00. > :04:06.of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will
:04:07. > :04:11.keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung
:04:12. > :04:17.the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like
:04:18. > :04:20.his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the
:04:21. > :04:27.report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in
:04:28. > :04:30.Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as
:04:31. > :04:36.deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len
:04:37. > :04:42.McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out
:04:43. > :04:47.the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a
:04:48. > :04:51.petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the
:04:52. > :04:56.Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come
:04:57. > :05:00.under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance
:05:01. > :05:06.demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of
:05:07. > :05:12.a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy
:05:13. > :05:17.the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems
:05:18. > :05:23.to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in
:05:24. > :05:28.deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him
:05:29. > :05:33.as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of
:05:34. > :05:40.labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend
:05:41. > :05:46.of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any
:05:47. > :05:56.wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len
:05:57. > :06:01.McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is
:06:02. > :06:09.in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion
:06:10. > :06:15.trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved
:06:16. > :06:21.in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing
:06:22. > :06:25.new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in
:06:26. > :06:30.the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had
:06:31. > :06:34.done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in
:06:35. > :06:40.Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says
:06:41. > :06:45.you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to
:06:46. > :06:49.fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you
:06:50. > :06:55.thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the
:06:56. > :07:02.Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then
:07:03. > :07:06.instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and
:07:07. > :07:10.during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened
:07:11. > :07:15.and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I
:07:16. > :07:21.was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent
:07:22. > :07:25.enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing
:07:26. > :07:30.because the people who originally complained changed their evidence
:07:31. > :07:35.and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to
:07:36. > :07:41.rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.
:07:42. > :07:49.We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that
:07:50. > :07:56.all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting
:07:57. > :08:01.the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are
:08:02. > :08:08.allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were
:08:09. > :08:13.put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they
:08:14. > :08:18.doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations
:08:19. > :08:23.that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea
:08:24. > :08:28.that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families
:08:29. > :08:37.has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They
:08:38. > :08:42.clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved
:08:43. > :08:48.in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.
:08:49. > :08:52.Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they
:08:53. > :09:01.are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position
:09:02. > :09:08.is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw
:09:09. > :09:16.their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his
:09:17. > :09:20.family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full
:09:21. > :09:27.weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to
:09:28. > :09:34.Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an
:09:35. > :09:38.independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central
:09:39. > :09:45.office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,
:09:46. > :09:49.the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks
:09:50. > :09:57.for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since
:09:58. > :10:06.when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to
:10:07. > :10:14.the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and
:10:15. > :10:18.it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making
:10:19. > :10:24.decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift
:10:25. > :10:33.back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent
:10:34. > :10:37.protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was
:10:38. > :10:43.not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling
:10:44. > :10:52.everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had
:10:53. > :10:59.loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to
:11:00. > :11:06.join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the
:11:07. > :11:12.Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going
:11:13. > :11:16.to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were
:11:17. > :11:23.loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the
:11:24. > :11:29.Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have
:11:30. > :11:35.used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at
:11:36. > :11:40.people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to
:11:41. > :11:47.look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an
:11:48. > :11:50.absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the
:11:51. > :11:58.21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the
:11:59. > :12:03.wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever
:12:04. > :12:11.it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk
:12:12. > :12:20.constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your
:12:21. > :12:26.opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con
:12:27. > :12:33.trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your
:12:34. > :12:38.legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of
:12:39. > :12:43.trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband
:12:44. > :12:47.wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way
:12:48. > :12:53.ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company
:12:54. > :12:58.started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,
:12:59. > :13:04.that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called
:13:05. > :13:09.INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring
:13:10. > :13:16.Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to
:13:17. > :13:24.a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who
:13:25. > :13:29.says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it
:13:30. > :13:35.in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make
:13:36. > :13:38.that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You
:13:39. > :13:45.instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what
:13:46. > :13:51.Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the
:13:52. > :13:57.petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due
:13:58. > :14:04.introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was
:14:05. > :14:08.being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost
:14:09. > :14:14.Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was
:14:15. > :14:18.saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and
:14:19. > :14:27.humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len
:14:28. > :14:33.McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with
:14:34. > :14:37.INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop
:14:38. > :14:41.stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns
:14:42. > :14:49.and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has
:14:50. > :14:54.condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have
:14:55. > :14:59.you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour
:15:00. > :15:05.Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested
:15:06. > :15:09.in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the
:15:10. > :15:16.requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last
:15:17. > :15:20.Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will
:15:21. > :15:25.continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they
:15:26. > :15:32.are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.
:15:33. > :15:38.You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.
:15:39. > :15:43.We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company
:15:44. > :15:48.to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking
:15:49. > :15:53.unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive
:15:54. > :16:01.industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all
:16:02. > :16:03.Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to
:16:04. > :16:09.implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is
:16:10. > :16:13.what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our
:16:14. > :16:19.members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not
:16:20. > :16:24.be cowed by media attacks on us Is your leadership not proving to be as
:16:25. > :16:38.disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My
:16:39. > :16:42.membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are
:16:43. > :16:45.executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me
:16:46. > :16:51.standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I
:16:52. > :17:05.will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us
:17:06. > :17:07.by the media. "A country ready to welcome your
:17:08. > :17:10.investment which values your friendship and will never exclude
:17:11. > :17:13.anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The
:17:14. > :17:16.words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which
:17:17. > :17:19.was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm
:17:20. > :17:22.words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a
:17:23. > :17:24.spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the
:17:25. > :17:27.wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of
:17:28. > :17:30.some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the
:17:31. > :17:40.Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.
:17:41. > :17:44.First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east
:17:45. > :17:50.London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,
:17:51. > :17:54.one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it
:17:55. > :17:59.frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the
:18:00. > :18:03.British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,
:18:04. > :18:07.traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate
:18:08. > :18:11.to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one
:18:12. > :18:20.question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to
:18:21. > :18:24.address some challenging issues Are they willing to confront
:18:25. > :18:28.radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of
:18:29. > :18:38.sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not
:18:39. > :18:44.nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young
:18:45. > :18:48.Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using
:18:49. > :18:56.Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this
:18:57. > :19:03.work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has
:19:04. > :19:13.been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public
:19:14. > :19:16.to please people but in private something very different is being
:19:17. > :19:22.said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,
:19:23. > :19:30.it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for
:19:31. > :19:35.radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's
:19:36. > :19:41.faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if
:19:42. > :19:48.rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some
:19:49. > :19:55.sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,
:19:56. > :20:00.and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and
:20:01. > :20:05.it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially
:20:06. > :20:10.when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to
:20:11. > :20:14.talk about grooming for example or discrimination against women. There
:20:15. > :20:21.is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the
:20:22. > :20:26.one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist
:20:27. > :20:37.perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of
:20:38. > :20:53.minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public
:20:54. > :21:04.places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy
:21:05. > :21:08.of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and
:21:09. > :21:11.that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the
:21:12. > :21:16.preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council
:21:17. > :21:20.of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating
:21:21. > :21:26.sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved
:21:27. > :21:33.predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for
:21:34. > :21:39.some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We
:21:40. > :21:47.need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the
:21:48. > :21:51.normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and
:21:52. > :21:58.chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that
:21:59. > :22:03.actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible
:22:04. > :22:10.with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to
:22:11. > :22:14.women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures
:22:15. > :22:18.of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain
:22:19. > :22:27.itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they
:22:28. > :22:35.are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to
:22:36. > :22:35.are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are
:22:36. > :22:40.experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages
:22:41. > :22:43.what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not
:22:44. > :22:48.being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance
:22:49. > :22:51.rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been
:22:52. > :22:56.found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in
:22:57. > :23:02.this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what
:23:03. > :23:08.are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem
:23:09. > :23:12.of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be
:23:13. > :23:17.exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many
:23:18. > :23:22.Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a
:23:23. > :23:29.big cultural gap will exist between the two.
:23:30. > :23:32.And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq
:23:33. > :23:41.Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the
:23:42. > :23:48.veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible
:23:49. > :23:56.to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory
:23:57. > :23:58.requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting
:23:59. > :24:13.themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst
:24:14. > :24:15.wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life
:24:16. > :24:20.successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red
:24:21. > :24:27.herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim
:24:28. > :24:36.girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point
:24:37. > :24:40.of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the
:24:41. > :24:49.public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones
:24:50. > :24:57.who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a
:24:58. > :25:03.practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour
:25:04. > :25:09.it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women
:25:10. > :25:14.should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the
:25:15. > :25:19.veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is
:25:20. > :25:26.important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free
:25:27. > :25:29.choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their
:25:30. > :25:35.free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it
:25:36. > :25:40.helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away
:25:41. > :25:45.from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad
:25:46. > :25:50.thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim
:25:51. > :25:55.preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim
:25:56. > :26:02.women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim
:26:03. > :26:09.women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being
:26:10. > :26:14.forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and
:26:15. > :26:19.what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,
:26:20. > :26:24.very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is
:26:25. > :26:31.wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other
:26:32. > :26:34.Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider
:26:35. > :26:44.that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any
:26:45. > :26:48.Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an
:26:49. > :26:54.organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not
:26:55. > :27:00.coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by
:27:01. > :27:04.individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that
:27:05. > :27:10.would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would
:27:11. > :27:22.not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires
:27:23. > :27:30.children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you
:27:31. > :27:38.agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have
:27:39. > :27:47.just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a
:27:48. > :27:53.black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on
:27:54. > :28:04.anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.
:28:05. > :28:10.I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think
:28:11. > :28:16.it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would
:28:17. > :28:27.wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some
:28:28. > :28:34.muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the
:28:35. > :28:38.start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I
:28:39. > :28:47.would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic
:28:48. > :28:52.girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the
:28:53. > :29:01.top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.
:29:02. > :29:04.But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those
:29:05. > :29:13.girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I
:29:14. > :29:19.am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.
:29:20. > :29:31.There is a very conservative movement from the continent on
:29:32. > :29:35.Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their
:29:36. > :29:42.website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged
:29:43. > :29:46.to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should
:29:47. > :29:51.not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you
:29:52. > :29:56.think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They
:29:57. > :30:06.are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree
:30:07. > :30:14.with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is
:30:15. > :30:19.what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is
:30:20. > :30:41.quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you
:30:42. > :30:45.agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back
:30:46. > :30:51.to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied.
:30:52. > :30:58.This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised.
:30:59. > :31:06.Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday
:31:07. > :31:17.mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your
:31:18. > :31:27.counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they
:31:28. > :31:32.have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is
:31:33. > :31:38.advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the
:31:39. > :31:44.Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The
:31:45. > :31:51.Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots
:31:52. > :31:59.of common issues to create a community which positively
:32:00. > :32:06.integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate
:32:07. > :32:09.for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications
:32:10. > :32:18.available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your
:32:19. > :32:27.organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall
:32:28. > :32:37.under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British
:32:38. > :32:43.mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of
:32:44. > :32:49.prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to
:32:50. > :32:55.prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very
:32:56. > :33:04.beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them?
:33:05. > :33:13.Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council
:33:14. > :33:18.have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious
:33:19. > :33:25.stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at
:33:26. > :33:42.this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country.
:33:43. > :33:54.That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we
:33:55. > :34:00.live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they
:34:01. > :34:05.have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You
:34:06. > :34:12.would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like
:34:13. > :34:19.that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation
:34:20. > :34:23.to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission's
:34:24. > :34:31.rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law
:34:32. > :34:39.of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger
:34:40. > :34:46.issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul
:34:47. > :34:57.declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it
:34:58. > :35:06.or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media
:35:07. > :35:12.mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself
:35:13. > :35:20.from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration
:35:21. > :35:29.because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign
:35:30. > :35:35.it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the
:35:36. > :35:45.declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there
:35:46. > :35:52.was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not
:35:53. > :35:56.what was meant by the declaration. When did you decide so is the
:35:57. > :36:06.yourself from the declaration? From day one. We never signed it. The
:36:07. > :36:09.East London Mosque which you are personally closely associated with
:36:10. > :36:21.is the venue for a number of extremist speakers, who espoused
:36:22. > :36:26.extremist positions. In 2009 the mosque posted a video and
:36:27. > :36:31.presentation by somebody described by the UN Security Council as an
:36:32. > :36:35.Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another speaker described Christians and
:36:36. > :36:40.Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad is supporter of the Taliban there.
:36:41. > :36:49.Why do you do nothing to stop extremists like that at this mask
:36:50. > :36:53.with which you are associated with? We do not have anything to do with
:36:54. > :36:59.any rhetoric that condones or supported violence. We issue
:37:00. > :37:04.guidelines and the mosque itself is a registered charity which has its
:37:05. > :37:08.own rules and regulations, but it is a very large mosques and lots of
:37:09. > :37:14.organisations book and come and told their gatherings. We rent out the
:37:15. > :37:27.facilities. You were prepared to speak alongside a man who saluted
:37:28. > :37:32.suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy. Why would you
:37:33. > :37:36.share a platform like that? I did not share a platform like that.
:37:37. > :37:44.Different organisations come and have conferences here. Why did you
:37:45. > :37:53.agree? I did not agree with that. I completely reject that. When you add
:37:54. > :37:59.all this up the attitude to women, the alliance with the most
:38:00. > :38:03.fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the toleration of intolerant views, a
:38:04. > :38:08.willingness for you to be counted among them, why should anybody of
:38:09. > :38:17.goodwill, either a Muslim or a non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good
:38:18. > :38:24.force? It is an organisation which embraces different organisations
:38:25. > :38:29.which are affiliated in the Muslim community. You have taken snippets
:38:30. > :38:34.of certain individual views which are not the views of our affiliates.
:38:35. > :38:39.It would be unfair to represent our view based on those which you have
:38:40. > :38:47.highlighted in this programme. The work that we do is quite clear and
:38:48. > :38:52.is on our website. They are all associated with you, but we will
:38:53. > :38:54.have to leave it there. You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming
:38:55. > :39:12.up: I will be talking to joke In the East Midlands, fears for our
:39:13. > :39:16.safety of a privatisation from the people charged with looking after
:39:17. > :39:19.offenders released from jail. I don't want people to be scared but
:39:20. > :39:25.what I do want is for them to treat the issues that we have raised with
:39:26. > :39:28.utmost concern. And the Derbyshire man born with one arm who claims he
:39:29. > :39:33.was asked if his other one was likely to grow back at a hearing to
:39:34. > :39:38.see if he was fit for work. We looked at each other and said, were
:39:39. > :39:44.you being realistic here? I was born like it so it will not grow back. I
:39:45. > :39:50.am Mary Ashby and joining me in the studio this week, two Derbyshire
:39:51. > :39:58.MPs, Pauline Latham and Toby Perkins. Let's start with the latest
:39:59. > :40:04.on HS2 after MPs voted to pave the way for work to begin. A bill was
:40:05. > :40:08.approved by 350 votes to 34 to allow the Government to spend money on
:40:09. > :40:11.beginning preparations on the line. For some it is a shining vision of
:40:12. > :40:16.the future which will whisk us to London in less than one hour but for
:40:17. > :40:21.others it is a white elephant ruin in the countryside and gobbling up
:40:22. > :40:24.cash. But does this vote mean the arguments are finally over and the
:40:25. > :40:30.battle has been won or lost? Pauline, is it all over? No, they
:40:31. > :40:33.will be quite a few more right units because the bill will take about for
:40:34. > :40:38.five years to go through. It is a very, very complex bill and that
:40:39. > :40:39.will take time to get through Parliament. I think they will
:40:40. > :40:41.continue to be Parliament. I think they will
:40:42. > :40:47.continue quite a few arguments but I hope at the end of the day that they
:40:48. > :40:52.will get it through. Labour are still wobbly on this, how did you
:40:53. > :40:59.vote? I did not actually vote in the debate on Thursday because it was a
:41:00. > :41:02.one line whip and it was only about giving the Government permission to
:41:03. > :41:05.study in preparation work towards it rather than building it that we were
:41:06. > :41:13.supporting that as a party but the majority of Labour MPs were doing
:41:14. > :41:16.other things. I think that it is a potentially important development
:41:17. > :41:21.for our area but we need to rebuild confidence, in the sense that costs
:41:22. > :41:29.are running out of control and that is quite worrying. All of us need a
:41:30. > :41:33.sense of a government that can get a control of the cost and tell us how
:41:34. > :41:37.much it'll cost. So you still need reassuring? I think people do
:41:38. > :41:43.because we were originally talking about ?35 billion and already there
:41:44. > :41:49.is talk now that it is 50 billion. We haven't even laid a single`track
:41:50. > :41:54.yet. Our position is that we support HS2 in principle but not at any
:41:55. > :41:58.cost. Will there be more reassurances that? I think there
:41:59. > :42:03.will because we are talking about a long time in advance, we are talking
:42:04. > :42:08.about 20 years in advance and I think if we didn't go ahead with it
:42:09. > :42:11.and we had that attitude when the Victorians did the original railway,
:42:12. > :42:14.we would never have had any infrastructure in this country
:42:15. > :42:27.anyway. But this will be the next big leap in rail travel. Andrew
:42:28. > :42:35.Bridgen in a nearby constituency... They must reflect their constituents
:42:36. > :42:39.views but we will go ahead and work on that and hopefully people will be
:42:40. > :42:42.much happier. Plenty more debate to come on HS2. Onto the plans to
:42:43. > :42:47.privatise parts of the probation service, the Government wants to
:42:48. > :42:50.bring charities in to take over low and medium risk offenders with the
:42:51. > :42:55.probation service looking after high risk people. This week, the heads of
:42:56. > :42:59.the Derbyshire and Leicestershire probation trusts say the Government
:43:00. > :43:01.should wait for more research before introducing the changes and next
:43:02. > :43:08.week, probation officers will strike over the plans. We have been to
:43:09. > :43:13.Leicester to hear their concerns. Probation officers here are so
:43:14. > :43:16.concerned about plans for privatisation that they are
:43:17. > :43:22.threatening strike action. They want justice secretary Chris Grayling to
:43:23. > :43:26.delay plans for changes. The bottom line here is that we are being
:43:27. > :43:31.privatised in order that Chris Grayling can line the pockets of his
:43:32. > :43:35.friends and you will make an immoral profit. These private companies are
:43:36. > :43:38.not in it for public detection, they are in it to make a profit and that
:43:39. > :43:45.is something that does not sit right with me or my colleagues. You are
:43:46. > :43:50.worried about the speed of these changes? He has been told that these
:43:51. > :43:54.plans compromise the future of the management of offenders in this
:43:55. > :43:57.country and therefore public safety. He understands that that is
:43:58. > :44:01.the case but he chooses to ignore that advice. We have come to a point
:44:02. > :44:05.where we feel we are not being head and this is the only way forward.
:44:06. > :44:10.Are we seriously concerned about issues of public detection? That
:44:11. > :44:14.scares people, I do not want people to be scared but what I do want is
:44:15. > :44:20.for them to treat the issues that we have raised with an most concern.
:44:21. > :44:22.Because this is a very serious issue.
:44:23. > :44:25.Probation workers in Leicester telling us why they are so concerned
:44:26. > :44:29.that the Government insists the plans will reform a system that has
:44:30. > :44:32.been failing for years. The issue was debated in the Commons this
:44:33. > :44:38.week, the justice secretary told the house that the reforms were viable
:44:39. > :44:42.to reform die figures on the number of re`offenders.
:44:43. > :44:45.Crime in Britain is falling which is good but there are fewer first`time
:44:46. > :44:50.criminals out there which is also good but increasingly, crime in
:44:51. > :44:53.Britain today is being committed by people who have offended before. Who
:44:54. > :44:58.are going round and round the system. Reoffending to date has
:44:59. > :45:03.barely changed in a decade, it has risen again in the last year and it
:45:04. > :45:07.is the highest `` as high as it was five years ago when the reforms were
:45:08. > :45:11.put in place. Yesterday we released statistics which paint a grim
:45:12. > :45:21.picture of reoffending. Joining us to discuss that is Jane Loffhagen
:45:22. > :45:25.from the Lincolnshire National Association of Probation Officers.
:45:26. > :45:29.Reoffending figures have barely changed. They always highlight this
:45:30. > :45:33.issue of reoffending but the group of offenders they are referring to
:45:34. > :45:38.our prisoners serving under 12 months. And they introduced this
:45:39. > :45:41.whole programme on the basis that this reticular group of offenders
:45:42. > :45:46.were reoffending highly and that is true but that is the only group
:45:47. > :45:50.within the probation service does not work `` this particular group.
:45:51. > :45:54.It is not an argument for changing the probation service, it is for
:45:55. > :45:56.changing the law so that short`term prisoners are subject to licenses.
:45:57. > :46:05.We work with former offenders released from prison efficiently and
:46:06. > :46:07.probation services are high performing public services, it goes
:46:08. > :46:11.under the radar, not many people know what we do but against all the
:46:12. > :46:18.Government's and standards, we are very high performing services. What
:46:19. > :46:22.are your main concern is? Your union sounds alarmist about it. It is
:46:23. > :46:26.really serious and we do not want to be alarmist but the way it works at
:46:27. > :46:30.the moment, people are subject to quite a comprehensive and work
:46:31. > :46:36.intensive risk assessment programme and all kinds of risk are assessed
:46:37. > :46:41.so you do not get people who are medium or low or high risk because
:46:42. > :46:45.there are four or five different aspects of risk to assess and what
:46:46. > :46:50.you have come up with an assessment of that, that changes because it is
:46:51. > :46:54.dependent on whether they are using substances, whether they are mental
:46:55. > :46:58.health treatment, with their relationships are broken down,
:46:59. > :47:00.whether they have family support, if they are subject to restrictions on
:47:01. > :47:06.their licenses all their orders. We will often change these through all
:47:07. > :47:10.these are the true factors during the programme. You spoke during the
:47:11. > :47:16.debate, what are your concerns about this? Whether these reforms will
:47:17. > :47:22.work or not is entirely unproven. The probation service, as Jane was
:47:23. > :47:27.saying, has got every single trust which is either good or outstanding
:47:28. > :47:33.and the minister was unable to explain to us in the debate on
:47:34. > :47:37.Wednesday why the desire to extend probation services to those shorter
:47:38. > :47:41.sentences have to coincide with privatisation, why not go with the
:47:42. > :47:45.probation service to have that extension? And if you're going to go
:47:46. > :47:50.for this huge change which is potentially serious, why not have
:47:51. > :47:54.pilots would show if it works? When Chris Grayling got the job, he
:47:55. > :47:58.cancelled the pilots but then introduced the policy which seems
:47:59. > :48:02.crazy. What is the rush with all this, Pauline? Because it has not
:48:03. > :48:04.been working with the low`grade offenders and they will not be
:48:05. > :48:08.dealing with the high`grade offenders, they will still be dealt
:48:09. > :48:12.with by the probation service we are looking at the grade offenders that
:48:13. > :48:15.this is not working with so we need to make it work. Because people out
:48:16. > :48:20.there do not want people to come out of prison and reoffend and cause
:48:21. > :48:27.them problems and it is a problem to the general public. If you are
:48:28. > :48:30.talking about the lowest grade offenders, they do not work with the
:48:31. > :48:37.probation service at all. Within the remit, we only start with people who
:48:38. > :48:42.need intervention. So we need people to stop reoffending, the public do
:48:43. > :48:48.not want people to keep reoffending, they want them sorting out and that
:48:49. > :48:53.is what this will do. The unions are asking for a delay, not to scrap the
:48:54. > :48:59.whole plan. It is against hybridisation of a public service
:49:00. > :49:03.because `` privatisation of a public service and we are dedicated public
:49:04. > :49:07.servants and these programmes for low risk. If the service is
:49:08. > :49:11.privatised and there is a primary agenda which takes over from that,
:49:12. > :49:14.then services will follow where the money is. For instance, it will be
:49:15. > :49:17.much easier to get your payment by results with the very lowest grade
:49:18. > :49:23.offenders who are unlikely to reoffend anyway. Which part are you
:49:24. > :49:27.worried about? We are worried about all of it. It is a high achieving
:49:28. > :49:31.service and it is reducing reoffending, and Pauline is right,
:49:32. > :49:35.people want it to be reduced but there is not a magic fix, it is a
:49:36. > :49:37.painstaking, complicated and difficult process. And the lowest
:49:38. > :49:46.grade offenders that Pauline is talking about do not include minor
:49:47. > :49:50.offenders. Why such radical reform? We need to change it and get it
:49:51. > :49:53.right. The public expect us to get it right and we need to get on with
:49:54. > :50:01.it. The more we delay everything, the less chance we have that its
:50:02. > :50:05.will be quick. Are you listening to concerns, for example the head of
:50:06. > :50:07.the Derbyshire Probation Trust is saying there could be more
:50:08. > :50:16.preventable attacks and deaths, they are not mincing their words. They
:50:17. > :50:19.will not be dealt with by anybody else other than the probation
:50:20. > :50:23.service. The important thing is that the people who will stay with this
:50:24. > :50:27.new National probation service will be those at high risk of causing
:50:28. > :50:32.harm but medium grade offenders, serial thieves, people have been in
:50:33. > :50:38.jail several times will be people who will disappear from this. A high
:50:39. > :50:42.performing authority will completely disappear and many kinds of work
:50:43. > :50:46.that they do, particularly in rural communities, will cease to happen.
:50:47. > :50:50.There is a categorisation and whenever someone who is subject
:50:51. > :50:55.ditty that commits a serious offence again, there is an enquiry and most
:50:56. > :50:57.serious further offences come from low and medium risk offenders and
:50:58. > :51:00.medium risk offenders and these are the people who will be subject to
:51:01. > :51:07.supervision by the private sector. These are people we will not be able
:51:08. > :51:12.to monitor. Not necessarily. Why make the changes before the pilot?
:51:13. > :51:15.They will be people who will go into these new services so that the
:51:16. > :51:18.expertise will not be lost to the system, it will be just a different
:51:19. > :51:23.way of doing it and sometimes you have to stop, look at their system
:51:24. > :51:26.and decide that maybe there is a better way of doing it. I accept
:51:27. > :51:30.that the probation service is a good one but I think sometimes you need
:51:31. > :51:38.to reassess and look again and say, can we do it a better way? Why would
:51:39. > :51:42.people die? Let me give you an example, if somebody is being
:51:43. > :51:46.released from prison from opening conditions, somebody serving a long
:51:47. > :51:49.prison sentence, they cannot be put into open conditions until they are
:51:50. > :51:53.medium risk and then they get released at medium risk and they
:51:54. > :52:01.would be the kind of person who would go into the private sector.
:52:02. > :52:07.Why would it kill somebody? People on my sentences would come into that
:52:08. > :52:14.group, they are not released until they are medium. Is striking the
:52:15. > :52:23.answer? Striking is a desperate measure so that people understand
:52:24. > :52:29.the desperate measure that public servants are faced with. There are
:52:30. > :52:34.growing calls in East Midlands to hold fitness to work assessments by
:52:35. > :52:38.the contractor, Atos. We spoke to one Derbyshire man with an
:52:39. > :52:42.incredible story, born with one arm and claims he was asked if his other
:52:43. > :52:46.arm would grow back at his assessment. Atos deny the claims but
:52:47. > :52:51.it has raised an issue of assessments and whether they should
:52:52. > :52:54.be scrapped. Gary Swift lives alone in North
:52:55. > :52:59.Derbyshire, he has been in work in the past but now struggles to find
:53:00. > :53:04.an employer willing to take him on. They tried to get me to lift boxes
:53:05. > :53:10.out of the storeroom. He was born with one arm, and it makes lifting
:53:11. > :53:16.objects and other tasks difficult. His disability has also led him to
:53:17. > :53:21.be bullied at work. You would like to work as a driver but has not been
:53:22. > :53:26.able to get a break. I get rejected from all the tribunal 's. They say
:53:27. > :53:30.that I can work, I am not disabled but I cannot wait because I keep
:53:31. > :53:35.getting rejected, it is like a never ending circle. He was told to take
:53:36. > :53:42.an assessment but was surprised by the questions he faced.
:53:43. > :53:49.What did Atos Askew? Date asked me if my arm would grow back `` ask
:53:50. > :53:54.you. I looked at them to say, are you being realistic? I was born like
:53:55. > :54:06.this. It will not grow back. A local charity says arm's case is not
:54:07. > :54:11.uncommon. There are documented cases `` Garry's case. People have not
:54:12. > :54:17.been treated with dignity. It is designed to rush people through.
:54:18. > :54:22.People like Garry get training to help them find work but in his case,
:54:23. > :54:27.it was not suited to his needs. They send you out in the countryside,
:54:28. > :54:33.putting kissing gates up and basically you have to dig a hole.
:54:34. > :54:40.For a post to go in. I was stood next to everybody for 13 weeks
:54:41. > :54:43.because I can't dig. Atos is keen to point out that it only advises the
:54:44. > :54:48.Government of people's capability but it is the Department for Work
:54:49. > :55:03.and Pensions that ultimately makes the decision. That department says:
:55:04. > :55:10.The previous government appointed Atos and we're bringing on board
:55:11. > :55:12.additional providers. With complaints about Atos getting
:55:13. > :55:17.louder in the East Midlands, there are more people like Garry waiting
:55:18. > :55:21.to see if the process will be fixed any time soon.
:55:22. > :55:24.We did ask Atos to join our discussion that they told us no one
:55:25. > :55:29.was available and in a statement they refuted his claim categorically
:55:30. > :55:32.insisting that their staff were highly trained professionals and
:55:33. > :55:38.would not have asked a question like that. One would hope so. There is no
:55:39. > :55:42.denying that this is causing a lot of stress. Garry clearly feels the
:55:43. > :55:46.system is not helping him. He has clearly been put on the wrong work
:55:47. > :55:51.experience to find out. He cannot dig, it is a sad case that he has
:55:52. > :55:57.had this awful situation thrust upon him but I don't think he is
:55:58. > :56:00.unemployable. There are jobs he could do and for the majority of
:56:01. > :56:08.people who are disabled, if they can work, it is better for them. Many
:56:09. > :56:12.want to. Yes, and there are some ` and I am not saying that he does not
:56:13. > :56:15.want to work, clearly he wants to work and it would be good for him
:56:16. > :56:18.but the support he was given was wrong and we must get it right. But
:56:19. > :56:24.things are being changed all the time, the system is getting better.
:56:25. > :56:27.You think you're getting this right? We are, they will still be people
:56:28. > :56:30.who slip through, there always will be with any system but it is getting
:56:31. > :56:36.better than it was when was first starting and it has got thousands of
:56:37. > :56:42.people into work who were thinking they were disabled and could not
:56:43. > :56:45.work. Dennis Skinner, the Labour MP for Bolsover described Atos in the
:56:46. > :56:52.Commons as a cruel, heartless monster. Do you agree? The way the
:56:53. > :56:59.system is working is really cruel, but also utterly incompetent.
:57:00. > :57:06.Stories like this, arm's, every single week my surgery I will see
:57:07. > :57:09.who has been wrongly classified `` Garry's. Somebody whose life was
:57:10. > :57:13.wrecked in a car crash but the car crash was the start of the problems,
:57:14. > :57:21.he got into the Atos system, went through the tribunal and the
:57:22. > :57:25.tribunal found him nowhere near fit to work, and within six weeks are
:57:26. > :57:28.going through all this process, the whole thing is starting again and he
:57:29. > :57:35.will be assessed again. And it costs more money, Pauline. It is better
:57:36. > :57:39.for people to be in work than on benefits, that is proven and they
:57:40. > :57:42.want to work. Of course they will be people who cannot work and we should
:57:43. > :57:47.be looking after them and we should be making sure that there
:57:48. > :57:52.assessments are fair that they can appeal and they can ask for it to be
:57:53. > :57:56.redone and that is what people need to do. But they don't want to, I
:57:57. > :58:00.know it is an option but who would want to go through that? Of course
:58:01. > :58:04.you don't want to but if you are claiming public money, I think you
:58:05. > :58:08.have to until the situation has been clarified. And clearly, that
:58:09. > :58:13.gentleman cannot do a digging job, that is obvious. He said he wanted
:58:14. > :58:17.to do a driving job, that may not be an option but there are other jobs
:58:18. > :58:25.out there and he could have training to get another job. While Labour
:58:26. > :58:34.making such a fuss about this now? `` why are Labour making such. What
:58:35. > :58:41.we have is a really adversarial DWP led by the incompetent but heartless
:58:42. > :58:47.Iain Duncan Smith who is driving people mad. We have had two people
:58:48. > :58:51.in Chesterfield found fit for work and they died of their conditions.
:58:52. > :58:57.People that have got serious mental health problems, doctors saying that
:58:58. > :59:04.they are making people more ill by going through this. Iain Duncan
:59:05. > :59:08.Smith is not heartless, he cares because he knows it is better for
:59:09. > :59:11.people to be in work. That is why he has gone through all this process
:59:12. > :59:16.and he spent years trying to perfect it before he was in government,
:59:17. > :59:21.before he was the Secretary of State. And he has done it to the
:59:22. > :59:27.best of his ability and most of it... It is not all working but no
:59:28. > :59:33.system is perfect. Is this not a sign that it is not going very well?
:59:34. > :59:38.It is working for most of the people most of the time. There will always
:59:39. > :59:42.be cases and I have heard that case about Garry, it is a well`known case
:59:43. > :59:47.and it is ridiculous and he needs to be reassessed and he should ask for
:59:48. > :59:53.a reassessment. 75% of people who have appeal when their appeal. It is
:59:54. > :59:56.costing a fortune but it is putting people through terrible stress. We
:59:57. > :00:00.want to see people being supported and we recognise the small number of
:00:01. > :00:03.people who do not want to work but this system is not working and if
:00:04. > :00:08.this government has got any heart about it, it should reassess the
:00:09. > :00:11.system totally and get it done to get it working properly. It is
:00:12. > :00:14.broken. But the heart is there because they are trying to get
:00:15. > :00:20.people into work and give them the training and that is a good thing.
:00:21. > :00:22.It is not working. Time now for a round`up of the other political
:00:23. > :00:28.stories here in the East Midlands, he was our political editor.
:00:29. > :00:34.Council workers in Nottinghamshire are bracing themselves for more
:00:35. > :00:39.budget cuts, the county council will unveil its plans to cut ?134 million
:00:40. > :00:43.on Tuesday. It is expected they could be large`scale redundancies
:00:44. > :00:48.and services will be reduced or close down entirely. The council
:00:49. > :00:50.admits the details will be grim. Conservatives in Leicester have
:00:51. > :00:54.welcomed the Government's introduction of the first Islamic
:00:55. > :00:57.bond outside the non`Muslim world. The new Bond complies with sharia
:00:58. > :01:03.law of the Leicester Conservative Association says it gives the UK
:01:04. > :01:04.access to billions of pounds of investment.
:01:05. > :01:08.Neighbourhood watch organisations are keeping their eyes out on our
:01:09. > :01:13.new police and crime Commissioners, they are being asked for their views
:01:14. > :01:16.on what impact the elected VCCs are having.
:01:17. > :01:18.A big merger is under way in the business community, the
:01:19. > :01:21.Leicestershire Chamber of Commerce and the Nottinghamshire and
:01:22. > :01:24.Derbyshire chamber are planning to join forces across the East
:01:25. > :01:27.Midlands. Of the greater Manchester, it will be the biggest chamber in
:01:28. > :01:35.Britain. `` after greater Manchester.
:01:36. > :01:38.On next week's programme, the first anniversary of the police and crime
:01:39. > :01:45.Commissioners, we will find out how they are doing and ask from some of
:01:46. > :01:48.our PCCs and ask the the announcement by Nottinghamshire
:01:49. > :01:53.County Council and you can follow all the details on our blog. That's
:01:54. > :01:55.the Sunday politics here in the East Midlands. Back to Andrew, thank you
:01:56. > :02:00.very much to our guests. confident we will deliver that.
:02:01. > :02:16.Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's
:02:17. > :02:29.relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the
:02:30. > :02:33.Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka
:02:34. > :02:36.Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did
:02:37. > :02:39.earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.
:02:40. > :02:43.Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central
:02:44. > :02:47.office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the
:02:48. > :02:52.Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative
:02:53. > :02:56.mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he
:02:57. > :03:02.should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey
:03:03. > :03:09.denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial
:03:10. > :03:13.dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side
:03:14. > :03:19.is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send
:03:20. > :03:22.its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened
:03:23. > :03:27.in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families
:03:28. > :03:31.out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset
:03:32. > :03:38.particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of
:03:39. > :03:42.things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own
:03:43. > :03:48.report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -
:03:49. > :03:56.forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was
:03:57. > :04:08.being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the
:04:09. > :04:13.report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is
:04:14. > :04:15.something that the police are looking into so that is not
:04:16. > :04:27.something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We
:04:28. > :04:31.learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained
:04:32. > :04:36.to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour
:04:37. > :04:47.Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party
:04:48. > :04:49.and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are
:04:50. > :04:54.looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like
:04:55. > :04:57.the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil
:04:58. > :05:03.Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed
:05:04. > :05:09.Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not
:05:10. > :05:15.worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?
:05:16. > :05:18.Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we
:05:19. > :05:25.have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many
:05:26. > :05:30.respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further
:05:31. > :05:35.ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship
:05:36. > :05:40.with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of
:05:41. > :05:45.the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to
:05:46. > :05:50.vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but
:05:51. > :05:55.they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and
:05:56. > :06:00.that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do
:06:01. > :06:03.things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour
:06:04. > :06:07.Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in
:06:08. > :06:12.which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us
:06:13. > :06:19.in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3
:06:20. > :06:28.million working people who ensure our public services function. At
:06:29. > :06:33.Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk
:06:34. > :06:42.Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd
:06:43. > :06:49.just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to
:06:50. > :06:52.give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be
:06:53. > :06:58.confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to
:06:59. > :07:04.take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our
:07:05. > :07:11.Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed
:07:12. > :07:16.Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in
:07:17. > :07:20.special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite
:07:21. > :07:28.union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean
:07:29. > :07:36.according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the
:07:37. > :07:41.meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer
:07:42. > :07:48.free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your
:07:49. > :07:56.turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the
:07:57. > :08:01.allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the
:08:02. > :08:06.Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their
:08:07. > :08:15.rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at
:08:16. > :08:20.Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of
:08:21. > :08:27.their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to
:08:28. > :08:31.our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will
:08:32. > :08:36.find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets
:08:37. > :08:43.tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working
:08:44. > :08:47.in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port
:08:48. > :08:52.and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets
:08:53. > :08:58.overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from
:08:59. > :09:03.unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite
:09:04. > :09:08.know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears
:09:09. > :09:13.used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private
:09:14. > :09:19.sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was
:09:20. > :09:23.born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of
:09:24. > :09:30.their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they
:09:31. > :09:38.can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But
:09:39. > :09:42.there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is
:09:43. > :09:48.right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for
:09:49. > :09:54.their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their
:09:55. > :09:59.aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their
:10:00. > :10:06.workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the
:10:07. > :10:10.protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has
:10:11. > :10:18.said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.
:10:19. > :10:22.He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the
:10:23. > :10:26.radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that
:10:27. > :10:31.was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend
:10:32. > :10:37.to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like
:10:38. > :10:45.land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing
:10:46. > :10:48.the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.
:10:49. > :10:54.million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The
:10:55. > :10:59.business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances
:11:00. > :11:05.back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being
:11:06. > :11:10.used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater
:11:11. > :11:18.variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro
:11:19. > :11:24.enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a
:11:25. > :11:29.living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but
:11:30. > :11:34.there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business
:11:35. > :11:41.because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is
:11:42. > :11:47.good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are
:11:48. > :11:52.not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax
:11:53. > :12:00.credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know
:12:01. > :12:11.after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living
:12:12. > :12:15.wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and
:12:16. > :12:23.we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party
:12:24. > :12:37.pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a
:12:38. > :12:44.living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.
:12:45. > :12:49.What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle
:12:50. > :12:56.as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one
:12:57. > :13:01.of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this
:13:02. > :13:05.soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working
:13:06. > :13:16.together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.
:13:17. > :13:24.That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be
:13:25. > :13:29.here again next weekend at 12:2 pm after the Remembrance Day service at
:13:30. > :13:58.the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.
:13:59. > :14:03.Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life.
:14:04. > :14:11.To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there.
:14:12. > :14:14.There were the objects that were making the Earth.
:14:15. > :14:17.We're now weightless. That's how our planet started.
:14:18. > :14:20.Your arms are a little bit long Is that as small as they go?
:14:21. > :14:24.This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on.