:00:37. > :00:45.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne
:00:46. > :00:49.announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk
:00:50. > :00:52.to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini
:00:53. > :00:56.budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first
:00:57. > :01:01.time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it
:01:02. > :01:11.down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the
:01:12. > :01:14.Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will
:01:15. > :01:18.be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says
:01:19. > :01:26.inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The
:01:27. > :01:30.And in the East Midlands, calling international rescue. The MP who
:01:31. > :01:33.leads the country's response capital is now a crisis. Another
:01:34. > :01:45.week, another strategy? Can this one deliver?
:01:46. > :01:48.And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the
:01:49. > :01:54.packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the
:01:55. > :01:57.bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be
:01:58. > :02:07.tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after
:02:08. > :02:09.weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the
:02:10. > :02:12.Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with
:02:13. > :02:15.its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained
:02:16. > :02:18.how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.
:02:19. > :02:22.What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by
:02:23. > :02:28.government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the
:02:29. > :02:33.average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas
:02:34. > :02:37.bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that
:02:38. > :02:41.government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families
:02:42. > :02:45.incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way
:02:46. > :02:49.that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing
:02:50. > :02:54.with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping
:02:55. > :03:00.low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing
:03:01. > :03:05.the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband
:03:06. > :03:08.freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and
:03:09. > :03:14.older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit
:03:15. > :03:18.of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with
:03:19. > :03:23.the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not
:03:24. > :03:28.very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced
:03:29. > :03:34.overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to
:03:35. > :03:40.it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are
:03:41. > :03:47.explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does
:03:48. > :03:51.not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what
:03:52. > :03:54.agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would
:03:55. > :03:59.fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,
:04:00. > :04:03.I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests
:04:04. > :04:10.he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies
:04:11. > :04:15.have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced
:04:16. > :04:19.this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for
:04:20. > :04:23.ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an
:04:24. > :04:29.incentive to go along with this don't they? My worry is that I am
:04:30. > :04:35.not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people
:04:36. > :04:40.might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting
:04:41. > :04:46.thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by
:04:47. > :04:52.Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your
:04:53. > :04:55.bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall
:04:56. > :05:00.through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they
:05:01. > :05:06.themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the
:05:07. > :05:11.Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still
:05:12. > :05:15.very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance
:05:16. > :05:19.announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze
:05:20. > :05:24.prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen
:05:25. > :05:29.them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at
:05:30. > :05:33.their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a
:05:34. > :05:41.reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 0
:05:42. > :05:48.will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this
:05:49. > :05:51.time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George
:05:52. > :05:56.Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that 50
:05:57. > :06:01.has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the
:06:02. > :06:06.government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political
:06:07. > :06:09.bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along
:06:10. > :06:14.with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.
:06:15. > :06:18.Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the
:06:19. > :06:24.Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.
:06:25. > :06:31.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the
:06:32. > :06:35.coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or
:06:36. > :06:40.is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with
:06:41. > :06:46.the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where
:06:47. > :06:51.the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the
:06:52. > :06:55.homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing
:06:56. > :06:59.in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,
:07:00. > :07:03.but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.
:07:04. > :07:08.You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly
:07:09. > :07:13.down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are
:07:14. > :07:19.shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot
:07:20. > :07:24.ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older
:07:25. > :07:28.people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and
:07:29. > :07:34.raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with
:07:35. > :07:39.that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the
:07:40. > :07:42.eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation
:07:43. > :07:46.of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four
:07:47. > :07:52.years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost
:07:53. > :07:57.10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,
:07:58. > :08:04.how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.
:08:05. > :08:07.The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My
:08:08. > :08:16.take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about
:08:17. > :08:19.green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort
:08:20. > :08:26.of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income
:08:27. > :08:34.families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't
:08:35. > :08:40.-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall
:08:41. > :08:46.we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know
:08:47. > :08:52.that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be
:08:53. > :08:55.doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have
:08:56. > :09:09.jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my
:09:10. > :09:12.point quite well. David Cameron s panicked response to this over the
:09:13. > :09:18.last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to
:09:19. > :09:23.make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this
:09:24. > :09:25.government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are
:09:26. > :09:34.making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to
:09:35. > :09:38.you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.
:09:39. > :09:41.But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the
:09:42. > :09:46.threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account
:09:47. > :09:49.on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in
:09:50. > :09:58.coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not
:09:59. > :10:01.reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest
:10:02. > :10:07.income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be
:10:08. > :10:12.potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be
:10:13. > :10:16.that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going
:10:17. > :10:22.to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.
:10:23. > :10:32.We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the
:10:33. > :10:38.adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in
:10:39. > :10:42.favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest
:10:43. > :10:46.answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come
:10:47. > :10:56.round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if
:10:57. > :11:00.Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you
:11:01. > :11:05.would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?
:11:06. > :11:10.If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British
:11:11. > :11:16.people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,
:11:17. > :11:19.which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for
:11:20. > :11:25.those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might
:11:26. > :11:33.reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.
:11:34. > :11:39.Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,
:11:40. > :11:43.correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely
:11:44. > :11:49.fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want
:11:50. > :11:54.to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my
:11:55. > :11:58.view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour
:11:59. > :12:05.because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while
:12:06. > :12:08.they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy
:12:09. > :12:21.up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against
:12:22. > :12:26.it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference
:12:27. > :12:38.Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. - on
:12:39. > :12:44.the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income
:12:45. > :12:48.tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view
:12:49. > :12:55.that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are
:12:56. > :13:01.temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that
:13:02. > :13:06.was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return
:13:07. > :13:10.for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out
:13:11. > :13:17.of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour
:13:18. > :13:21.of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds
:13:22. > :13:25.open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is
:13:26. > :13:31.whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through
:13:32. > :13:43.other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair
:13:44. > :13:47.share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room
:13:48. > :13:51.subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with
:13:52. > :13:58.the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have
:13:59. > :14:03.about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the
:14:04. > :14:11.next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,
:14:12. > :14:16.but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for
:14:17. > :14:19.your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the
:14:20. > :14:25.prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always
:14:26. > :14:30.follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal
:14:31. > :14:34.Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.
:14:35. > :14:39.Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of
:14:40. > :14:45.the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up
:14:46. > :14:49.with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as
:14:50. > :14:54.you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and
:14:55. > :14:57.agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you
:14:58. > :15:03.disagree with. It is what grown ups do. A lot of people in your party
:15:04. > :15:08.think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a
:15:09. > :15:15.post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant
:15:16. > :15:28.manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the
:15:29. > :15:35.sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I
:15:36. > :15:38.see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I
:15:39. > :15:48.have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and
:15:49. > :15:53.large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the
:15:54. > :15:58.president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside
:15:59. > :16:04.the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for
:16:05. > :16:08.joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens
:16:09. > :16:11.of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",
:16:12. > :16:15.and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,
:16:16. > :16:17.immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released
:16:18. > :16:21.earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the
:16:22. > :16:24.first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are
:16:25. > :16:29.talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come
:16:30. > :16:33.into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins
:16:34. > :16:38.and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants
:16:39. > :16:44.the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and
:16:45. > :16:47.Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to
:16:48. > :16:57.apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted
:16:58. > :16:57.apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the
:16:58. > :17:02.2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England
:17:03. > :17:07.and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 004.
:17:08. > :17:13.The government has played down expectations that the skill of
:17:14. > :17:16.migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new
:17:17. > :17:20.restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was
:17:21. > :17:31.two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being
:17:32. > :17:38.seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday
:17:39. > :17:41.interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You
:17:42. > :17:46.criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from
:17:47. > :17:50.Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted
:17:51. > :17:54.arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the
:17:55. > :17:57.battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what
:17:58. > :18:01.preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from
:18:02. > :18:07.some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been
:18:08. > :18:11.better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of
:18:12. > :18:15.what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a
:18:16. > :18:21.series of measures that the Government still had time to bring
:18:22. > :18:25.in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There
:18:26. > :18:30.was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,
:18:31. > :18:34.and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do
:18:35. > :18:39.not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for
:18:40. > :18:43.everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking
:18:44. > :18:47.again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I
:18:48. > :18:54.understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not
:18:55. > :19:00.preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,
:19:01. > :19:05.I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency
:19:06. > :19:11.workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did
:19:12. > :19:15.support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I
:19:16. > :19:20.have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we
:19:21. > :19:24.recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in
:19:25. > :19:29.opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given
:19:30. > :19:34.your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in
:19:35. > :19:38.2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not
:19:39. > :19:43.keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I
:19:44. > :19:46.think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we
:19:47. > :19:49.did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the
:19:50. > :19:57.concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have
:19:58. > :19:59.come from people who have come to Britain over many generations
:20:00. > :20:01.contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise
:20:02. > :20:06.that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible
:20:07. > :20:11.for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures
:20:12. > :20:15.that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people
:20:16. > :20:18.have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.
:20:19. > :20:22.Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled
:20:23. > :20:26.and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on
:20:27. > :20:32.immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total
:20:33. > :20:36.net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in
:20:37. > :20:47.migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --
:20:48. > :20:51.twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We
:20:52. > :20:56.set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and
:20:57. > :21:01.it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?
:21:02. > :21:06.Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to
:21:07. > :21:11.Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have
:21:12. > :21:15.become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that
:21:16. > :21:19.has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls
:21:20. > :21:23.from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have
:21:24. > :21:29.sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm
:21:30. > :21:34.debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the
:21:35. > :21:38.full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What
:21:39. > :21:43.that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this
:21:44. > :21:49.country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.
:21:50. > :21:54.Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people
:21:55. > :21:59.coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come
:22:00. > :22:04.to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of
:22:05. > :22:10.control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was
:22:11. > :22:13.that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern
:22:14. > :22:17.Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened
:22:18. > :22:22.with not having transitional controls in place. The Government
:22:23. > :22:27.didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way
:22:28. > :22:31.it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.
:22:32. > :22:35.We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened
:22:36. > :22:40.in countries all over the world We travel and trade far more than ever.
:22:41. > :22:44.We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries
:22:45. > :22:48.have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing
:22:49. > :22:53.countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am
:22:54. > :22:58.trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you
:22:59. > :23:01.lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have
:23:02. > :23:05.already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a
:23:06. > :23:08.transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would
:23:09. > :23:14.have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have
:23:15. > :23:17.brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in
:23:18. > :23:22.towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration
:23:23. > :23:25.because there are different kinds of migration. University students
:23:26. > :23:29.coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the
:23:30. > :23:32.other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the
:23:33. > :23:39.jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour
:23:40. > :23:42.market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of
:23:43. > :23:46.migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the
:23:47. > :23:52.lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go
:23:53. > :23:57.to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came
:23:58. > :24:01.from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder
:24:02. > :24:06.of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and
:24:07. > :24:11.the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are
:24:12. > :24:14.nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that
:24:15. > :24:20.immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a
:24:21. > :24:25.mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession
:24:26. > :24:29.groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the
:24:30. > :24:33.changes that happened. Secondly in answer to the question that you just
:24:34. > :24:37.asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system
:24:38. > :24:41.at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the
:24:42. > :24:44.number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought
:24:45. > :24:48.billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not
:24:49. > :24:52.distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is
:24:53. > :24:56.starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem
:24:57. > :25:00.is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not
:25:01. > :25:05.address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats
:25:06. > :25:09.university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low
:25:10. > :25:14.skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to
:25:15. > :25:17.bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we
:25:18. > :25:23.would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There
:25:24. > :25:27.is something called student visas, which is not included in the
:25:28. > :25:31.figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a
:25:32. > :25:42.figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They
:25:43. > :25:44.come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they
:25:45. > :25:47.come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to
:25:48. > :25:50.come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the
:25:51. > :25:52.system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate
:25:53. > :25:55.and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give
:25:56. > :26:00.us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have
:26:01. > :26:05.seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made
:26:06. > :26:28.a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is
:26:29. > :26:31.right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which
:26:32. > :26:34.we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to
:26:35. > :26:36.listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then
:26:37. > :26:39.she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has
:26:40. > :26:42.chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I
:26:43. > :26:44.think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and
:26:45. > :26:48.reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.
:26:49. > :26:52.OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,00
:26:53. > :26:57.front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to
:26:58. > :27:01.fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that
:27:02. > :27:06.you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the
:27:07. > :27:11.Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.
:27:12. > :27:14.Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,
:27:15. > :27:23.and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have
:27:24. > :27:28.also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions
:27:29. > :27:33.dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not
:27:34. > :27:37.having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential
:27:38. > :27:41.increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth
:27:42. > :27:47.areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is
:27:48. > :27:50.about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over
:27:51. > :27:54.many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in
:27:55. > :27:58.the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People
:27:59. > :28:03.like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it
:28:04. > :28:08.leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens
:28:09. > :28:11.commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been
:28:12. > :28:17.the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of
:28:18. > :28:19.people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is
:28:20. > :28:22.about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working
:28:23. > :28:26.with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of
:28:27. > :28:30.their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved
:28:31. > :28:33.with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was
:28:34. > :28:40.to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you
:28:41. > :28:45.would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in
:28:46. > :28:48.all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is
:28:49. > :28:53.competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime
:28:54. > :28:56.and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point
:28:57. > :29:01.about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.
:29:02. > :29:08.It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of
:29:09. > :29:14.communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?
:29:15. > :29:19.Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised
:29:20. > :29:24.concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,
:29:25. > :29:30.Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million
:29:31. > :29:35.and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability
:29:36. > :29:40.at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.
:29:41. > :29:44.So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is
:29:45. > :29:55.which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out
:29:56. > :30:00.a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would
:30:01. > :30:04.be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't
:30:05. > :30:08.volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I
:30:09. > :30:13.think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented
:30:14. > :30:18.things and made it harder to get collaboration between police
:30:19. > :30:23.forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What
:30:24. > :30:29.is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't
:30:30. > :30:38.complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!
:30:39. > :30:42.In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential
:30:43. > :30:46.for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the
:30:47. > :30:52.Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game
:30:53. > :31:01.plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.
:31:02. > :31:04.In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you
:31:05. > :31:15.didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.
:31:16. > :31:32.Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling
:31:33. > :31:35.off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the
:31:36. > :31:41.scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of
:31:42. > :31:43.scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?
:31:44. > :31:46.There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and
:31:47. > :31:49.another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at
:31:50. > :32:01.conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain
:32:02. > :32:05.Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he
:32:06. > :32:10.may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of
:32:11. > :32:18.thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you
:32:19. > :32:23.ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be
:32:24. > :32:29.Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to
:32:30. > :32:37.be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of
:32:38. > :32:43.course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going
:32:44. > :32:45.to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader
:32:46. > :32:50.another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job
:32:51. > :32:56.Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It
:32:57. > :33:03.is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson
:33:04. > :33:06.to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so
:33:07. > :33:10.that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.
:33:11. > :33:12.And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man
:33:13. > :33:15.who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris
:33:16. > :33:21.replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job. In 1986, she took on the
:33:22. > :33:32.member for Henley, always a risky venture. And why might he make such
:33:33. > :33:37.a jibe, because he's won two more elections than the PM. Conservatives
:33:38. > :33:51.like a winner. Boris, against Robert expectations, has won the Mayor of
:33:52. > :33:54.London job twice. -- public. He might've built a following with the
:33:55. > :33:58.grassroots but he's on shakier ground with many Tory MPs, who see
:33:59. > :34:05.him as a selfish clown, unfit for high office. And besides, he's not
:34:06. > :34:08.the only one with king-sized ambition, and Boris and George are
:34:09. > :34:17.not close, however much they may profess unity. There is probably
:34:18. > :34:21.some Chinese expression for a complete and perfect harmony. Ying
:34:22. > :34:25.and yang. But in plain black and white, if Boris has a plan, it's one
:34:26. > :34:30.he can't instigate, and if David Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be
:34:31. > :34:37.implementable. He'd need a seat and it wouldn't be plain sailing if he
:34:38. > :34:41.did make a leadership bid. My leadership chances, I think I may
:34:42. > :34:46.have told you before, or about as good as my chances of ying
:34:47. > :34:50.reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high. So if the
:34:51. > :34:56.job you want with Brown-esque desire is potentially never to be yours
:34:57. > :35:02.what do you do? He is, of course, an American citizen by birth. He was
:35:03. > :35:07.born in New York public hospital, and so he is qualified to be
:35:08. > :35:11.President of the United States. And you don't need an IQ over 16 to find
:35:12. > :35:17.that the tiniest bit scary. Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis,
:35:18. > :35:24.Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are here. Is there a plan for Boris and
:35:25. > :35:28.if so, what is it? I think the plan is for him to say what he thinks the
:35:29. > :35:34.Tory activist base wants to hear just now. He knows that in 18 months
:35:35. > :35:39.time they can disown it. I think he is wrong, the way the speech has
:35:40. > :35:45.played has a limited number of people. He has cross-party appeal.
:35:46. > :35:48.He has now reconfirmed to people that the Tories are the nasty party
:35:49. > :35:56.and they have been pretending to be modernised. Is it not the truth that
:35:57. > :36:01.he needs David Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in
:36:02. > :36:07.this decade? It is very interesting watching his fortunes wax and wane.
:36:08. > :36:11.It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how well David Cameron
:36:12. > :36:14.is doing in front of his own party. There is no small element of
:36:15. > :36:20.strategy about what we are doing here. The problem with Boris is that
:36:21. > :36:26.he's popular with the country, but not with the party's MPs and its
:36:27. > :36:30.hard-core supporters. This was an appeal to the grassroots this week.
:36:31. > :36:38.He is not the only potential candidate. If we were in some kind
:36:39. > :36:43.of circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr Cameron, who
:36:44. > :36:52.with the other front the? I think it will skip a generation. The recent
:36:53. > :36:57.intake was ideological assertive. I do not buy the idea that it will be
:36:58. > :37:05.Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I then, that generation will be
:37:06. > :37:12.tainted by being in government. It is interesting, what is he trying to
:37:13. > :37:15.pull? He is ideological. He does not believe in many things, but he
:37:16. > :37:20.believes in a few things quite deeply, and one is the idea of
:37:21. > :37:24.competition, both in business and academic selection. He has never
:37:25. > :37:34.been squeamish about expressing that. We do make mistakes sometimes,
:37:35. > :37:38.assuming he is entirely political. Look at all the Northern voters who
:37:39. > :37:45.will not vote for the Tories even though they are socially or economic
:37:46. > :37:51.the Conservatives. I do not think he helps. Who in the Tories would
:37:52. > :38:00.help? That is a tough question. To reason me has also been speaking to
:38:01. > :38:05.the hard right. -- Theresa May. I have been out with him at night. It
:38:06. > :38:10.is like dining with a film star. People are queueing up to speak to
:38:11. > :38:15.him. Educational selection is one of the few areas that he can offer. He
:38:16. > :38:37.has gone liberal on immigration, as are made of London would have to.
:38:38. > :38:45.In the East Midlands, the MP with billions of pounds of our money and
:38:46. > :38:49.it is all going abroad. It is the right thing to do and I think
:38:50. > :38:53.everyone should be proud of it. If you were to cut it to zero, it is
:38:54. > :38:58.not big enough to solve all the other problem is the UK says it has
:38:59. > :39:06.got. And the politician who says it is time to stop the bickering. My
:39:07. > :39:10.message to politicians is, grow up. Don't attack people personally, get
:39:11. > :39:13.on with the job. Hello, I'm Marie Ashby, and we're
:39:14. > :39:16.expecting a very grown up debate from our two guests, Nigel Mills,
:39:17. > :39:18.the Conservative MP for Amber Valley, and the extremely
:39:19. > :39:21.uncontroversial John Mann, Labour's Bassetlaw MP. First, fears for our
:39:22. > :39:22.emergency services 0 Bassetlaw MP. First, fears for our
:39:23. > :39:27.emergency services were raised again in the Commons this week. This time
:39:28. > :39:30.it was the Derbyshire Fire and Rescue Service, which is planning to
:39:31. > :39:35.reduce the number of stations from 31 to 20 and cut more than a hundred
:39:36. > :39:38.fire fighting jobs. The debate follows the deaths of four people,
:39:39. > :39:42.including two children, at a fire at North Wingfield in Derbyshire. It
:39:43. > :39:45.was called by the Chesterfield MP, Labour's Toby Perkins, but
:39:46. > :39:52.Derbyshire MPs from all sides expressed their concerns.
:39:53. > :39:57.At the moment, a fire engine will be at a life risk incident within ten
:39:58. > :40:01.minutes three quarters of the time and those deemed as the most
:40:02. > :40:13.vulnerable in over 80% of the cases. These plans would see a drop
:40:14. > :40:21.to 66%. Nigel Mills, what are your concerns?
:40:22. > :40:25.I can understand why they want to review their service. They have got
:40:26. > :40:33.budget pressures, but the measures in my area and talking about closing
:40:34. > :40:34.stations into towns completely, that is going 0
:40:35. > :40:43.stations into towns completely, that is going to cost them ?3 million
:40:44. > :40:49.upfront and ?150,000 a year. And what are your fears for
:40:50. > :40:59.Nottinghamshire, John? It is George Osborne's cuts, it is the wrong kind
:41:00. > :41:02.of cuts. We should resist this. It is the wrong kind of cuts and George
:41:03. > :41:11.Osborne should put the right money in. Brandon Lewis says the
:41:12. > :41:17.Derbyshire Fire Service has increased its reserves. They may be
:41:18. > :41:23.sensible decision to increase their savings so I think they have done
:41:24. > :41:30.the right thing to date. I don't think you can run an organisation on
:41:31. > :41:33.reserves. Brandon Lewis also said Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and
:41:34. > :41:38.Leicestershire were getting a grant to bring in a joint response system
:41:39. > :41:44.which could save ?8 million. So it is not all bad news. I am for
:41:45. > :41:49.progress. I am not for cutting my Fire service or anyone else's. My
:41:50. > :41:54.constituents expect a professional Fire service when they needed. We
:41:55. > :41:58.are not prepared to accept cuts. The government needs to change its mind,
:41:59. > :42:03.change its position and put the money in. George Osborne could do it
:42:04. > :42:09.next week. What are Derbyshire MP is going to do about this? I hope the
:42:10. > :42:18.fire authority will change their mind and look again at these
:42:19. > :42:24.savings. I think they should wait. There is no need for them to rush
:42:25. > :42:30.into some of these bad decisions. Could the Chancellor put more money
:42:31. > :42:34.in? I think we are still spending somewhere around ?100 billion more
:42:35. > :42:35.than the tax revenue brings in. There is no easy way 0
:42:36. > :42:35.than the tax revenue brings in. There is no easy way to deal with
:42:36. > :42:39.this. Well, he's the East Midlands MP with
:42:40. > :42:43.international clout and certainly the only one who's seeing his budget
:42:44. > :42:45.rising every year. Alan Duncan, the Rutland and Melton MP, is a minister
:42:46. > :42:46.in the Department for 0 Rutland and Melton MP, is a minister
:42:47. > :42:51.in the Department for International Development, which spent almost ?9
:42:52. > :42:54.billion last year. He's also the proud owner of Noodle, the
:42:55. > :42:58.parliamentary dog of the year, and he's given an exclusive insight into
:42:59. > :42:58.his work ` Alan Duncan that is, not Noodle, 0
:42:59. > :42:59.his work ` Alan Duncan that is, not Noodle, to our Political Editor,
:43:00. > :43:07.John Hess. At his office in Whitehall, Alan
:43:08. > :43:11.Duncan admits to having a personal Thunderbirds moment when
:43:12. > :43:14.international rescue calls. As Minister for International
:43:15. > :43:15.Development, he has to answer the real`life calls for humanitarian
:43:16. > :43:22.help. I 0 real`life calls for humanitarian
:43:23. > :43:23.help. I tease 0 real`life calls for humanitarian
:43:24. > :43:28.help. I tease William Hague and say we are the foreign office with a
:43:29. > :43:32.budget. Thunderbirds is part of our portfolio. We go where there are
:43:33. > :43:35.disasters and I think we are one of the best organisations in the world
:43:36. > :43:39.at getting people together to address those disasters. He was
:43:40. > :43:48.updating MPs this week on the UK's response to the Philippines
:43:49. > :44:06.disaster. It has gone out of the news but we have still got massive
:44:07. > :44:09.teams in the Philippines. There's the best part of ?100 million going
:44:10. > :44:12.into the Philippines, which will continue to go in over the months
:44:13. > :44:15.ahead for the reconstruction of properties and the restoration of
:44:16. > :44:18.livelihoods and the provision of food and control of disease. We've
:44:19. > :44:38.now got a large vaccination programme. Some people think we
:44:39. > :44:43.spend 10% on international development ` it's 1%. It's a big
:44:44. > :44:46.amount of money but it's not an enormous faction of government
:44:47. > :44:50.spending. Yes, it gives us enormous respect. We are the first wealthy
:44:51. > :44:55.country to commit to spend 0.7% of our national income on the poorest
:44:56. > :44:58.people in the world. We are preparing for the risk of an
:44:59. > :44:59.earthquake in Nepal. We know that over 0
:45:00. > :44:59.earthquake in Nepal. We know that over the next 0
:45:00. > :45:03.earthquake in Nepal. We know that over the next few years there will
:45:04. > :45:07.be cyclones in India and floods in Bangladesh and so you can prepare
:45:08. > :45:10.things by getting the right sort of buildings built so that when there
:45:11. > :45:11.is a flood they don't automatically get washed 0
:45:12. > :45:15.is a flood they don't automatically get washed away and we have a whole
:45:16. > :45:20.team of people and organisations who can leap into action at the press of
:45:21. > :45:22.a button in order to address the urgent humanitarian need caused by a
:45:23. > :45:23.disaster. When people knew I was coming 0
:45:24. > :45:28.disaster. When people knew I was coming to interview you, they said,
:45:29. > :45:33."Ask Alan about Noodle". Ah, Noodle, my cockerpoo, the parliamentary dog
:45:34. > :45:34.of the year. I'm very proud of her. When I go shopping 0
:45:35. > :45:37.of the year. I'm very proud of her. When I go shopping on a Saturday,
:45:38. > :45:41.the constituents don't look up at me any more, they look down and say,
:45:42. > :45:50."Hello, Noodle". I just carry the lead now.
:45:51. > :45:53.Alan Duncan making a strong case for overseas aid but we have just been
:45:54. > :46:04.talking about cuts to the fire service. Shouldn't strategy begin at
:46:05. > :46:09.home? `` charity. Yes. It is right that we play a big role in dealing
:46:10. > :46:15.with disasters like the Philippines but I can't justify spending
:46:16. > :46:23.taxpayers money at a time like this. I would have held at that increase
:46:24. > :46:29.until we deal with our own problems. But this is what Alan Duncan's job
:46:30. > :46:32.involves. That is the promises we had in our manifesto but I think it
:46:33. > :46:41.is the wrong thing at the wrong time. What do you think about the
:46:42. > :46:45.budget going up? It is all about David Cameron and Alan Duncan trying
:46:46. > :46:45.to reposition the Tory party as not being the nasty 0
:46:46. > :46:51.to reposition the Tory party as not being the nasty party. But what is
:46:52. > :46:56.happening? Most of the money in Nepal is going on road building in
:46:57. > :47:00.the capital. We have doubled the expenditure on projects in each of
:47:01. > :47:05.the countries we are in. There is no cost control, it is spend, spend,
:47:06. > :47:09.spend. Money is being thrown away and in the next couple of years we
:47:10. > :47:14.will see audit report saying, badly spent. The staff they are being told
:47:15. > :47:21.to get spending because the government wants to show how
:47:22. > :47:27.generous it is. What is the answer? At the moment we should be freezing
:47:28. > :47:33.the budget. I agree. We should be focusing on things that really need
:47:34. > :47:36.doing. What about soft power? Alan Duncan was talking about that and
:47:37. > :47:43.that gives us some clout, doesn't it? That is the theory. We deliver
:47:44. > :47:47.this through a lot of partner organisations. The people who see
:47:48. > :47:53.the benefits of those projects don't even know it is the UK doing it. It
:47:54. > :47:56.is right that we pay our share in disasters and in real problem spots
:47:57. > :48:02.but the amount we are spending is too much. That's soft power means
:48:03. > :48:07.the aid is value for money, doesn't it? Well spent aid is value for
:48:08. > :48:14.money but the government has literally doubled the spending next
:48:15. > :48:18.year. It is throwing money at any project. There is no cost control,
:48:19. > :48:23.there is no priority within it and we are literally pouring money down
:48:24. > :48:29.the drain. What do you think about overseas aid? Should we be cutting
:48:30. > :48:32.back on that, like everything else, or do people worse off than
:48:33. > :48:34.ourselves still deserve our help? We've been in Nottingham to find
:48:35. > :48:40.out. We need to look after our own before
:48:41. > :48:43.we start doing that. There are an awful lot of people in a lot worse
:48:44. > :48:47.condition than we are so it is something that needs to be spent.
:48:48. > :48:53.But monitored very carefully to make sure it goes to the right people. If
:48:54. > :48:59.we have got the money to be able to do it, it is good to be able to give
:49:00. > :49:04.it to charity. Some people can't even afford to put the heating on. I
:49:05. > :49:08.have just lost a friend through a heart attack and his postmortem has
:49:09. > :49:12.been put back because of the amount of people who have died since the
:49:13. > :49:19.cold setting. When you see things like India plug`in rockets in space
:49:20. > :49:25.and we are not looking after our own and giving them money, plus the fact
:49:26. > :49:29.that over the years a lot of the funding we have pudding polluted,
:49:30. > :49:39.stolen and never gets to the right people. My goodness me, it can never
:49:40. > :49:43.be too much, can it? But I suppose, like everybody, if you are human,
:49:44. > :49:47.you think we are in a mess here as well.
:49:48. > :49:51.Many people backing the concept of international aid but when chap very
:49:52. > :49:58.concerned about winter deaths in this country. It is a problem
:49:59. > :49:59.everywhere. It is a problem in Bassetlaw. That is why energy bills
:50:00. > :50:02.are so 0 Bassetlaw. That is why energy bills
:50:03. > :50:06.are so critical. There are people not switching on the energy because
:50:07. > :50:12.they can't afford to. People are dying and unnecessarily. That is
:50:13. > :50:17.what gets to people, isn't it? We are giving money abroad. We give
:50:18. > :50:21.more money than America when people are very concerned about putting
:50:22. > :50:24.their own heating on. I think that is why we should be using some of
:50:25. > :50:27.that 0 is why we should be using some of
:50:28. > :50:31.that money to help our own people. I hope the Chancellor will announce
:50:32. > :50:35.next week some reduction to green taxes and we should bring some of
:50:36. > :50:36.the bills down. What should he be doing right now in 0
:50:37. > :50:40.the bills down. What should he be doing right now in his Autumn
:50:41. > :50:44.statement? That is the one thing that has captured the public mood,
:50:45. > :50:52.the energy bills, and one thing we can do is reversed taxes so that we
:50:53. > :50:56.are not forcing bills on people. We can say we will reduce that ?130
:50:57. > :51:03.that is on people's bills that we have chosen to put there. What would
:51:04. > :51:09.you say, John? They should be cutting the bills. People can't
:51:10. > :51:12.afford these bills. I would renationalise the companies if it
:51:13. > :51:16.was up to me but if we can't do that, at least we should be forcing
:51:17. > :51:21.them to reduce the bills. They are making ridiculous amounts of profit
:51:22. > :51:24.at our expense and the most Bernabeu in society, it is hitting them the
:51:25. > :51:34.hardest and people are dying because of it. `` and rubble in society.
:51:35. > :51:38.Clearly the market has not worked as it should and that is something we
:51:39. > :51:41.have got to get right. Well, so far it's all been very
:51:42. > :51:45.civilised here, but it's not always like that when politicians debate.
:51:46. > :51:49.One local councillor has said we need to see more co`operation
:51:50. > :51:49.between the parties. The former mayor of 0
:51:50. > :51:52.between the parties. The former mayor of Derby, Lisa Higginbottom,
:51:53. > :51:56.has resigned from the Labour group to stand as an independent. She says
:51:57. > :52:00.she's fed up with the bickering and fighting which she says gets in the
:52:01. > :52:19.way of good decision making and lets the public down.
:52:20. > :52:24.I am Lisa Higginbottom and I am a councillor in the city of Derby and
:52:25. > :52:26.I am fed up of politicians bickering. We spend far 0
:52:27. > :52:28.I am fed up of politicians bickering. We spend far too much
:52:29. > :52:32.time in the council chamber allegedly debating when it is not
:52:33. > :52:36.actually debate. We are not debating policy, people are personally
:52:37. > :52:41.attacking each other and it is not good enough any more. The problem it
:52:42. > :52:45.causes is that people do not debate issues, ideas do not come to the
:52:46. > :52:49.table, and good ideas are turned down just because somebody is from a
:52:50. > :52:50.different party. We need to get the job done 0
:52:51. > :52:53.different party. We need to get the job done properly now. My views on
:52:54. > :52:58.how politicians behave was changed when I had the privilege of serving
:52:59. > :53:03.the city last year. You do get a different perspective. I was able to
:53:04. > :53:08.work with people from all parties to get results. That is why I made the
:53:09. > :53:12.decision to remove myself from a political party because I want to
:53:13. > :53:14.get results and I want to work with everybody. I believe people are fed
:53:15. > :53:15.up 0 0 everybody. I believe people are fed
:53:16. > :53:19.up of political parties and that they want people who are going to
:53:20. > :53:23.work for them and they don't want people just to say, I voted in a
:53:24. > :53:31.certain manner because I was told to.
:53:32. > :53:35.If the public says it is no longer acceptable to turn on the telly and
:53:36. > :53:39.see grown`ups are doing, and the public said they are not accepting
:53:40. > :53:46.that any more, you need to be on the television discussing things. I have
:53:47. > :53:52.seen some sixth formers debate better than politicians. We need to
:53:53. > :53:57.stop making excuses for politics and say it is not acceptable any more.
:53:58. > :54:02.It is not acceptable in business so it is not acceptable in the chamber
:54:03. > :54:07.to make personal attacks. My message to politicians is to grow up, take
:54:08. > :54:11.part in debate, don't attack people personally, get on with the job,
:54:12. > :54:14.conduct yourself in a businesslike fashion, the same as you would it be
:54:15. > :54:25.expected to do in any other world of work.
:54:26. > :54:31.Lisa Higginbottom, the former mayor of Derby, on why she's given up on
:54:32. > :54:33.political parties. But joining us in the studio, someone who thinks
:54:34. > :54:38.perhaps the answer is more parties, or at least his party. Mike Scott is
:54:39. > :54:41.from Left Unity, a new party launched this week aiming to offer
:54:42. > :54:49.voters a more left wing alternative to the current lot. Surely Lisa has
:54:50. > :54:57.got a point. The last thing we need is more parties. What we need is
:54:58. > :55:02.parties that actually do what people want. That is the problem. All the
:55:03. > :55:07.existing parties essentially represent themselves, they don't
:55:08. > :55:10.represent, certainly in terms of the Labour Party, it is not represent
:55:11. > :55:13.the people it was set up to represent. Why do we need your
:55:14. > :55:18.party? We intend 0 represent. Why do we need your
:55:19. > :55:22.party? We intend to be a bottom up party so we will not be saying to
:55:23. > :55:28.people, these are our policies, take it or leave it. We will be saying,
:55:29. > :55:28.what do you think we should do? We will 0
:55:29. > :55:33.what do you think we should do? We will be taking our cues from that.
:55:34. > :55:39.So this is the Labour Party's fault because you do not represent the
:55:40. > :55:45.people any more. I think it is an advert for the new Monty Python. The
:55:46. > :55:50.people's Revolutionary party. We have had these parties before. They
:55:51. > :55:54.get about ten votes and that is democracy and fair enough. But the
:55:55. > :55:59.real issues are, who should be running the country, what should the
:56:00. > :56:05.policies be to improve the country, and it is going to be Nigel's party
:56:06. > :56:11.against my party. You must be loving this, having these two sides
:56:12. > :56:15.squaring up like this? I think John is right that it is democracy and if
:56:16. > :56:21.people want to join a new party, that is up to them. I don't
:56:22. > :56:24.recognise this they would that parties are not listening to
:56:25. > :56:32.constituents. That is why I am trying to amend the Immigration
:56:33. > :56:38.Bill. I think we do try and listen but the more candidates the merrier.
:56:39. > :56:47.What do you stand for? What are your policies? The party was formed
:56:48. > :56:51.following the film produced last year by Ken Loach about the welfare
:56:52. > :57:00.state and how it was formed. Not Monty Python then? Not at all. There
:57:01. > :57:04.have been tiny groups before which are indistinct Schauble from each
:57:05. > :57:09.other but we're not going to be like that. 110 odd years ago the Labour
:57:10. > :57:16.Party was formed by trade unions and other organisations people said,
:57:17. > :57:20.they will never get anywhere. But by 1924, they were the government. We
:57:21. > :57:25.don't aim to be one of these small parties fiddling around at the
:57:26. > :57:30.edges. We aim to be a mass party aiming to replace the Labour Party.
:57:31. > :57:37.And look at the rise of UKIP for example. The problem is people
:57:38. > :57:41.abstaining. I am attempting to enthuse people to participate and
:57:42. > :57:43.vote. Last night I had a big rhubarb young people, 250, at 0
:57:44. > :57:51.vote. Last night I had a big rhubarb young people, 250, at a meeting `` a
:57:52. > :57:58.big group. I am very confident that they will vote. UKIP have had an
:57:59. > :58:04.impact on your party as well, Nigel. They have become a protest party on
:58:05. > :58:07.some issues. What we need is politicians of all parties to be
:58:08. > :58:10.talking about the issues that are really concerning people and the
:58:11. > :58:17.lady you showed in the video, she is right. She wants to see is talking
:58:18. > :58:26.about the big issues. Has that surprised you as a new MP, all the
:58:27. > :58:30.bickering? If people watch PMQs, they might think that is how we
:58:31. > :58:35.behave the rest of the time but most of the debates are instructive. You
:58:36. > :58:41.should watch me and Nigel in a committee. He says something
:58:42. > :58:45.sensible, I get up and backing, he is very embarrassed, and I call on
:58:46. > :58:52.his side to support me in backing him. It is not like that normally.
:58:53. > :58:58.The truth is, as an evil Tory, I want to get rid of him at the next
:58:59. > :59:04.election. But he is a decent human being, he has some good ideas, and I
:59:05. > :59:10.back them. Does the barracking and the bickering get the job done? It
:59:11. > :59:15.is absolutely awful. That is Monty Python. That is what we want to
:59:16. > :59:18.avoid. That is what most people think politics about and I think it
:59:19. > :59:22.is important that politics is reinvented so it actually does what
:59:23. > :59:28.people want. If you ask people what they want, they will say none of
:59:29. > :59:32.them will do what they want. And they are absolutely right. More than
:59:33. > :59:36.half the people who could vote in any election don't do so, either
:59:37. > :59:40.because they abstain or they are not even on the electoral register in
:59:41. > :59:47.the first place. Will you be fielding candidates? Yes, we will.
:59:48. > :59:50.We are looking to do something new in British politics that has not
:59:51. > :59:56.been done since the foundation of the Labour Party. That worked out
:59:57. > :00:01.all right to begin with. Thank you very much indeed. Time now for a
:00:02. > :00:08.round`up of the other political stories this week.
:00:09. > :00:14.A new report says East Midlands cities are taking a big hit in the
:00:15. > :00:18.cuts than wealthier areas in the south. The group that represents
:00:19. > :00:23.municipal councils says local authorities have lost ?160 more per
:00:24. > :00:26.head in funding compared with London. Nottingham City Council says
:00:27. > :00:31.it proves its claim that councils here are being unfairly hit. It
:00:32. > :00:34.could be back to the future for policing in Nottinghamshire. The
:00:35. > :00:39.police and crime commission wants volunteers to be Parish Dunstable
:00:40. > :00:42.'s, a role not seen since the 1830s. The change of mind on the
:00:43. > :00:48.cigarette packaging has been welcomed by the East Midlands Labour
:00:49. > :00:50.MEP Glenys Wilmot. The government is looking out into losing plain
:00:51. > :00:56.packaging after it had previously been ruled out. Meanwhile, this
:00:57. > :01:01.sumptuous picture of the sun rising in Derbyshire was the winner in a
:01:02. > :01:06.contest organised by the Conservative MEP. The winner gets a
:01:07. > :01:11.trip to Brussels. And there is no truth in the rumour that the second
:01:12. > :01:15.prize was two trips to Brussels. That's the Sunday Politics in the
:01:16. > :01:19.East Midlands. Thanks to Nigel Mills and John Mann. Next week, Anna
:01:20. > :01:24.Soubry and Chris Leslie will be here. Now back to Andrew Neil.
:01:25. > :01:28.picked out. People thought he was touching on eugenics and things like
:01:29. > :01:45.that. That is all we have time for. Thank you. What rabbit has George
:01:46. > :01:52.Osborne got up his sleeve? And what's David Cameron up to in China?
:01:53. > :01:58.All questions for The Week Ahead. To help the panel led, we are joined by
:01:59. > :02:04.Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Why has the
:02:05. > :02:08.government been unable to move the agenda and to the broad economic
:02:09. > :02:14.recovery, and allowed the agenda to stay on Labour's ground of energy
:02:15. > :02:18.prices and living standards? Energy has been a big issue over the last
:02:19. > :02:21.few months but the autumn state and will be a wonderful opportunity to
:02:22. > :02:26.readdress where we are fighting the ground, the good economic news that
:02:27. > :02:32.we delivered. If you look at where Labour were earlier this year,
:02:33. > :02:36.people were saying they would they 5 million people unemployed. They were
:02:37. > :02:45.saying that there should be a plan B. He is not in the Labour Party?
:02:46. > :02:49.Elements of the left were suggesting it. Peter Hain told me it would be
:02:50. > :02:56.up to 3 million people. Danny Blanchflower said it would be 5
:02:57. > :03:00.million people. So we have got to get the economy back to the centre
:03:01. > :03:05.of the debate? Yes, the game we were playing was about the economy. That
:03:06. > :03:10.was the central fighting ground of the political debate. We were
:03:11. > :03:15.winning that battle. Labour have cleverly shifted it onto the cost of
:03:16. > :03:20.living. It is essential that the government, that George, talks about
:03:21. > :03:29.the economy. That has been its great success. I do not think this has
:03:30. > :03:36.been a week of admitting that Labour was right, plain cigarettes
:03:37. > :03:40.packaging, other issues. If you look at the big picture, where we are
:03:41. > :03:45.with the economy, we have the fastest growing economy in the G-7.
:03:46. > :03:51.Despite Labour's predictions, none of this has happened, none of the
:03:52. > :03:55.triple dip has happened. The British economy is on a good fitting. That
:03:56. > :04:00.is a good story for the government to bat on. You say that people have
:04:01. > :04:03.stopped talking about the economic recovery, but it is worse than that,
:04:04. > :04:09.people have stopped talking about the deficit? As long as people were
:04:10. > :04:16.talking about the deficit, the Tories were trusted. But people have
:04:17. > :04:20.forgotten about it. This country still spends ?100 billion more than
:04:21. > :04:26.it raises. Yes, I am of the view that the deficit, the national
:04:27. > :04:31.debt, is the biggest question facing this generation of politicians. You
:04:32. > :04:37.are right to suggest that the Conservative Party was strong on
:04:38. > :04:43.this. That head, not deficit, is not going to come down in the
:04:44. > :04:46.foreseeable future? It is rising. This is a test that George Osborne
:04:47. > :04:52.is not going to pass. We know what is coming in the Autumn Statement,
:04:53. > :04:57.it is lots of giveaways, paying for free school meals, paying for fuel
:04:58. > :05:01.duty subsidies. We are still talking about the cost of living, not
:05:02. > :05:06.changing it actively wider economy. There might be extra money for
:05:07. > :05:13.growth but it is not clear what will happen to that. If it is time for
:05:14. > :05:20.giveaways, let's speak about Labour. I have never been a fan of
:05:21. > :05:26.giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what our watchword should be. Look at the
:05:27. > :05:31.headlines. Each time, the deficit figures, the debt figures, were
:05:32. > :05:37.always worse than predicted. This year it will be significantly
:05:38. > :05:42.better. I think that is significant. Any kind of recovery is probably
:05:43. > :05:47.better than no recovery at all. When you look at this recovery, it is
:05:48. > :05:52.basically a consumer spending boom. Consumer spending is up, business
:05:53. > :06:01.investment is way down compared with 2008, and exports, despite a 20
:06:02. > :06:04.devaluation, our flat. Let's get one thing straight, it is a recovery.
:06:05. > :06:12.Any recovery is better than no recovery. Now we can have a debate
:06:13. > :06:16.about, technical debate about the elements of the recovery. It is not
:06:17. > :06:22.technical, it is a fact. There is evidence that there is optimism in
:06:23. > :06:28.terms of what are thinking... Optimism? If I am optimistic about
:06:29. > :06:34.the economy, I am more likely to spend money and invest in business.
:06:35. > :06:39.So far you have not managed that? Exports have not done well either?
:06:40. > :06:45.Exports are not a big section of the British economy. But of course, they
:06:46. > :06:51.are important. But given where we were at the end of last year, no
:06:52. > :06:55.economist was saying that we would be in this robust position today.
:06:56. > :07:02.That is true, in terms of the overall recovery. Now the PM loves
:07:03. > :07:06.to "bang the drum abroad for British business" and he's off to China this
:07:07. > :07:07.evening with a plane-load of British business leaders. And it's not the
:07:08. > :08:02.first time. Take a look at this Well, you might not think exports
:08:03. > :08:07.unimportant, but clearly the Prime Minister and the Chancellor do. They
:08:08. > :08:12.are important, but they are not what is driving the growth at the moment.
:08:13. > :08:15.We used to talk about the need for export led recovery is, that is why
:08:16. > :08:22.the Prime Minister is going to China. Absolutely, and he's doing
:08:23. > :08:26.the right thing. Do we have any evidence that these tend of trips
:08:27. > :08:31.produce business? The main example so far is the right to trade the
:08:32. > :08:36.Chinese currency offshore. London has a kind of global primacy. London
:08:37. > :08:42.will be the offshore centre. Is that a good thing? I have no problem at
:08:43. > :08:45.all with this sort of policy. I do not think that Britain has been
:08:46. > :08:50.doing this enough compared with France and Germany in recent years.
:08:51. > :08:57.I am optimistic in the long term about this dish -- about British
:08:58. > :09:04.exports to China. China need machine tools and manufacturing products. In
:09:05. > :09:08.20 years time, China will be buying professional groups, educational
:09:09. > :09:12.services, the things we excel at. All we need to do is consolidate our
:09:13. > :09:18.strengths, stand still and we will move forward. The worst thing we can
:09:19. > :09:22.do is reengineer the economy towards those services and away from
:09:23. > :09:29.something else. We have a lot of ground to make up, Helen? At one
:09:30. > :09:33.stage, it is no longer true, but at one stage you could say that we
:09:34. > :09:39.exported more to Ireland, a country of 4 million people, than we did to
:09:40. > :09:48.Russia, China, India, Brazil, all combined. I believe we form 1% of
:09:49. > :09:53.Chinese imports now. The problem is what you have to give up in exchange
:09:54. > :09:57.for that. It is a big problem for David Cameron's credibility that he
:09:58. > :10:04.has had to row back on his meeting with the Dalai llama. This trip we
:10:05. > :10:09.have been in the deep freeze with China for a couple of years. This
:10:10. > :10:13.trip has come at a high cost. We have had to open up the City of
:10:14. > :10:17.London to Chinese banks without much scrutiny, we have had to move the
:10:18. > :10:22.date of the Autumn Statement, and there is no mention of human rights.
:10:23. > :10:27.It is awkward to deal with that all in the name of getting up to where
:10:28. > :10:34.we were a few years ago. A month after strong anchor -- one month
:10:35. > :10:41.after Sri Lanka, where he apologised three human rights abuses, this is
:10:42. > :10:44.difficult to take. Do we have any idea what the Prime Minister hopes
:10:45. > :10:48.to do in China this time? I am not sure there is anything specific but
:10:49. > :10:53.when you go to these countries, certainly in the Middle East China,
:10:54. > :10:59.they complain, why has the Prime Minister not come to see us? That is
:11:00. > :11:04.very important. High-level delegations from other countries go
:11:05. > :11:15.to these places because the addict -- because they are important export
:11:16. > :11:20.markets. You might look at the Prime Minister playing cricket over there,
:11:21. > :11:24.and wonder, what is that for? I do not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy
:11:25. > :11:30.cricket. This is a high visibility mission, chose that politicians in
:11:31. > :11:34.Britain care. You are part of the free enterprise group. It had all
:11:35. > :11:40.sorts of things on it like tax cuts for those on middle incomes or above
:11:41. > :11:48.the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16 billion. You will get none of that
:11:49. > :11:52.on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But he does have two budgets between now
:11:53. > :11:59.and the election and if the fiscal position is using a little bit, he
:12:00. > :12:02.may have more leeway than it looked like a couple of months ago. Yes,
:12:03. > :12:10.from a free enter prise point of view, we have looked at the tax cuts
:12:11. > :12:15.that should be looked at. The 4 p rate comes in at quite a low level
:12:16. > :12:20.for people who, in the south-east, do not feel particularly wealthy.
:12:21. > :12:26.They are spending a lot of money on commuting, energy bills. The
:12:27. > :12:31.Chancellor has been very open about championing this. He says that the
:12:32. > :12:35.40p rate will kick in at a slightly higher rate. Labour had a bad summer
:12:36. > :12:42.and the opinion polls seem to be narrowing. Then they had a good
:12:43. > :12:45.hearty conference season. The best. Has the Labour lead solidified or
:12:46. > :12:51.increased the little, maybe up to eight points? If it is a good Autumn
:12:52. > :12:57.Statement, or the Tories start to narrow that lead by the end of the
:12:58. > :13:02.year? If they go into 2014 trailing by single digits, they cannot
:13:03. > :13:07.complain too much. That gives them 18 months to chip away at Labour's
:13:08. > :13:12.lead. But do they do that chipping away by eight bidding Labour or do
:13:13. > :13:14.they let time take its course and let the economic recovery continue,
:13:15. > :13:21.maybe business investment joins consumer spending as a source of
:13:22. > :13:25.that recovery, and a year from now, household disposable income begins
:13:26. > :13:31.to rise? That is a better hope than engaging in a bidding war. Be
:13:32. > :13:34.assured, they will be highly political budgets. That's all for
:13:35. > :13:37.today. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at midday all this week, except
:13:38. > :13:40.on Thursday when we'll start at 10:45 to bring you live coverage and
:13:41. > :13:44.analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn Statement in a Daily Politics
:13:45. > :13:46.special for BBC Two and the BBC News Channel. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:47. > :13:49.it's the Sunday Politics.