:00:37. > :00:44.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says
:00:45. > :00:49.Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask
:00:50. > :00:54.senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:55. > :00:57.What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the
:00:58. > :01:08.views of a Sunday Politics focus group.
:01:09. > :01:20.In the East Midlands, how much would you want to allow smacking where you
:01:21. > :01:23.MP. And we'll get the verdict on Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's
:01:24. > :01:24.plunge from the highboard from who else but the Minister for
:01:25. > :01:28.Portsmouth. And with me, as always, the best and
:01:29. > :01:33.the brightest political panel in the business: and in London, Boris
:01:34. > :01:36.Johnson has pledged to recruit more volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis
:01:37. > :01:48.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:49. > :01:50.First this morning, Nick Clegg is considering a fresh investigation
:01:51. > :01:59.into the behaviour of the party s former chief executive, Lord
:02:00. > :02:02.Rennard. Last week, a lawyer appointed by the party decided that
:02:03. > :02:05.no action could be taken against him, but that women who had accused
:02:06. > :02:08.the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate behaviour "were broadly credible".
:02:09. > :02:18.More than 100 party activists are demanding an apology. Chris Rennard
:02:19. > :02:22.say he's nothing to apologise for and the party whip must be returned
:02:23. > :02:27.to him. Helen, this is not going away. It is turning into a crisis
:02:28. > :02:35.for the Lib Dems? They have only got seven female MPs. There is no female
:02:36. > :02:39.Cabinet Minister. There is a reasonable chance that after the
:02:40. > :02:42.next election there might in no female Liberal Democrat MPs at all.
:02:43. > :02:48.A scandal like this will not encourage women into the party. Have
:02:49. > :02:51.they made a complete mess of it You feel for Nick Clegg, because he
:02:52. > :02:58.launched an utterly rigorous process. He called in a QC. The QC
:02:59. > :03:04.looked at it and decided that the evidence did not meet the burden of
:03:05. > :03:07.proof in a criminal trial. But clearly he felt that the evidence
:03:08. > :03:16.from these women was very credible and serious. He said it was broadly
:03:17. > :03:20.credible. Clearly it was serious. Rennard is being advised by Lord
:03:21. > :03:24.Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat peer, who is giving purely legal
:03:25. > :03:30.advice. He is saying it has not reached that edge-mac, so do not
:03:31. > :03:35.apologise. This is a political issue, so the agony continues. Nick
:03:36. > :03:40.Clegg was hoping to keep the party whip withdrawn. But they did not
:03:41. > :03:46.launch an enquiry, the Webster enquired it was not an enquiry, it
:03:47. > :03:51.was a legal opinion. You're right, it was an internal opinion. The Lib
:03:52. > :03:56.Dems distinguished themselves from the other two parties not with
:03:57. > :04:00.policy, but with ethics. They presented themselves as being
:04:01. > :04:03.cleaner, and in possession of more Robert Jay than Labour and the
:04:04. > :04:18.Conservatives. That will be harder to do now. -- more probity. There
:04:19. > :04:22.are a Lib Dem peers that are more relaxed about taking him back and
:04:23. > :04:28.letting him pick up the party whip. That is the problem. There is a
:04:29. > :04:31.generational issue. The older Lib Dems in the House of Lords, the kind
:04:32. > :04:36.of thing, he did not do anything that wrong. The younger activists
:04:37. > :04:42.and those outside the House of Lords, they think it is a pollen.
:04:43. > :04:47.Yes, there is definitely a sort of what you are complaining about sort
:04:48. > :04:54.of thing. That is symptomatic of a cultural difference. The report last
:04:55. > :04:58.year found that they tried to manage the allegations. They did not do
:04:59. > :05:02.what any company would do if there was an allegation of sexual
:05:03. > :05:07.harassment. If there had not in the by-election in Eastleigh, this story
:05:08. > :05:13.may not have got the attention it did. Channel four news are the one
:05:14. > :05:17.that really drove this. Without their reporting, this might not have
:05:18. > :05:20.come out. It is not going to go away, because the issue of whether
:05:21. > :05:29.he gets the party whip back will come week. -- will come up this
:05:30. > :05:33.week. So it's not been a great week for
:05:34. > :05:36.the Liberal Democrats and none of this will help public perceptions of
:05:37. > :05:39.a party already struggling in the polls. In a moment, I'll be talking
:05:40. > :05:42.to the second most senior Liberal Democrat in the land, Danny
:05:43. > :05:45.Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went to Glasgow to find out what voters
:05:46. > :05:48.there made of the party. Let's put the Lib Dems under the
:05:49. > :05:51.microscope in Glasgow. We have recruited some Glaswegians who have
:05:52. > :05:56.voted for them, and some who have not. Hello, John. Let's get started.
:05:57. > :05:58.I will be watching them through the one-way mirror, along with the
:05:59. > :06:02.former Liberal Democrat MP John Barrett. Let's get to the heart of
:06:03. > :06:05.the matter straightaway. If the Lib Dems were a biscuit, what would they
:06:06. > :06:12.be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the outside but soft in the middle. They
:06:13. > :06:19.give in. There is no strength of character there. They just give in
:06:20. > :06:29.to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit bland and boring. Melts and crumbles
:06:30. > :06:32.under any sort of heat and pressure. Morrison's own brand of biscuit not
:06:33. > :06:35.top of the range like Marks Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose.
:06:36. > :06:45.A custard cream, sandwiched between David Cameron and the Tories. I
:06:46. > :06:48.think they were concerned that they had one exterior, but something else
:06:49. > :06:52.was really inside. They did not find it too definitive, too clear, too
:06:53. > :07:01.concise, too tasty, too appealing. Which means? It is a worry. If that
:07:02. > :07:06.is their gut reaction, literally, let's find out what is behind it.
:07:07. > :07:10.The context of them being stuck between a rock and a hard place for
:07:11. > :07:17.them as a party, I feel slightly sorry for them. I think people who
:07:18. > :07:22.voted for them will think they are victims as well, being sold down the
:07:23. > :07:25.river by going to the coalition I think the ones, particularly student
:07:26. > :07:32.fees, that was an important one to a lot of people. People felt cheated.
:07:33. > :07:35.I agree. Just going back on that, so publicly and openly, it makes you
:07:36. > :07:44.think, well, what do they stand for? It is trust. Harsh. But our group is
:07:45. > :07:48.feeling quite upbeat about the state of the economy. What have the Lib
:07:49. > :07:54.Dems contributed to that? I am not quite sure. It is George Osborne, a
:07:55. > :08:00.Conservative, who is the Chancellor, so it is mostly down to him. The
:08:01. > :08:04.Liberal Democrats are mostly on their coat tails, if you know what I
:08:05. > :08:08.mean. Have the Lib Dems done anything, anyone? I think the
:08:09. > :08:12.Liberal Democrats were responsible for increasing the tax allowance,
:08:13. > :08:16.?10,000 for next year. I think they have played a major role in that.
:08:17. > :08:24.Yes. I am glad somebody noticed that. We will have helped everyone
:08:25. > :08:32.who is receiving a salary, and it is interesting that nobody has
:08:33. > :08:41.mentioned that. Now, let's talk about personalities. Everyone knows
:08:42. > :08:45.him, but what about say, this guy? Alexander. Danny, they got it
:08:46. > :08:49.straightaway. I actually quite like him. I think he talks very clearly
:08:50. > :08:56.and it is easy to understand what he says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy
:08:57. > :08:59.is popular as well. He is very charismatic and it is through him
:09:00. > :09:07.that I voted Liberal the last few times. But who is this? I recognise
:09:08. > :09:09.him but I cannot tell you his name. That is the party's leader in
:09:10. > :09:12.Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the party's role in the upcoming
:09:13. > :09:16.referendum on independence draws a blank as well. It does not feel like
:09:17. > :09:34.they have featured, it is SNP and Labour and Conservative. They are
:09:35. > :09:37.last in a four horse race. We have been talking about the biggest issue
:09:38. > :09:40.in Scottish politics, independence and the referendum and the Lib Dems
:09:41. > :09:44.are nowhere. They are not mentioned and they seem to think it is all
:09:45. > :09:47.about Labour and the SNP. The Lib Dems are part of the Better Together
:09:48. > :09:50.campaign and we are being drowned out among that. Looking to the
:09:51. > :09:56.future, what messages do voters have for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do
:09:57. > :10:02.not go back on your policies or your word. Be strong and decisive. If you
:10:03. > :10:09.will pardon the expression, man up. DIY, do it yourself. Do not award
:10:10. > :10:17.bankers and other people for failure. Stand up. Be your own
:10:18. > :10:20.person, party. If that focus group represented the whole country, what
:10:21. > :10:26.would the result for the Lib Dems be at 2015 in the election? If they get
:10:27. > :10:31.the message across between now and then, the result could be OK. If
:10:32. > :10:35.they do not get the message across, the result could be disaster. Maybe
:10:36. > :10:41.they would do a lot better on their own. I do not think you are seeing
:10:42. > :10:45.the true Lib Dems because they are in the coalition. They maybe deserve
:10:46. > :10:49.another chance. Crucially for the Lib Dems, that means there is some
:10:50. > :10:58.hope, but there is also plenty of anger, some disappoint, and a bit of
:10:59. > :11:01.bafflement as well. And watching that with me, senior
:11:02. > :11:06.Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander
:11:07. > :11:11.Welcome to the programme. One of the things that comes through from the
:11:12. > :11:15.focus group is that if there is any credit around for the economic
:11:16. > :11:20.recovery, it is the Tories that are getting it, and you are not? What
:11:21. > :11:25.can you do about that? The first thing to say is that the economy
:11:26. > :11:29.would not be recovering if it was not for the Liberal Democrats. If it
:11:30. > :11:33.was not for our decision right beginning in 2010 to form a strong,
:11:34. > :11:37.stable coalition government that to deal with the problems, we would
:11:38. > :11:43.still be in the mess that Labour left us with. Why are you not
:11:44. > :11:50.getting the credit? That was one focus group. It was interesting to
:11:51. > :11:54.hear opinions. We have to work very hard to get across the message that
:11:55. > :11:58.the economy would not be recovering without the Liberal Democrats.
:11:59. > :12:00.People would not be seeing the largest income tax cuts for a
:12:01. > :12:07.generation without the Liberal Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold
:12:08. > :12:10.that one of the people referred to is coming into peoples pay packets
:12:11. > :12:20.this year. Lots of people recognise that. There was the one person in
:12:21. > :12:23.the focus groups. This is your measure of success, raising the
:12:24. > :12:27.people at which people pay income tax. But most of the voters do not
:12:28. > :12:32.even give you credit for that. The role that we haven't British
:12:33. > :12:36.politics as a party, is that we are the only party that can be trusted
:12:37. > :12:42.to deliver a fair society and a strong economy. People know they
:12:43. > :12:46.cannot trust the Labour Party. We saw it again from Ed Miliband this
:12:47. > :12:55.morning. You cannot trust the Labour Party with the nation's finances. It
:12:56. > :13:00.may well be your policy, the income tax threshold, but it is the Tories
:13:01. > :13:05.that are getting the credit? I do not think that is true. I have spent
:13:06. > :13:08.lots of time meeting photos and lots of people recognise that if it was
:13:09. > :13:13.not for the Liberal Democrats, people would not be seeing those tax
:13:14. > :13:18.cuts. We are helping disadvantaged children in schools. It is right
:13:19. > :13:22.that we have to work very hard between now and polling day to do
:13:23. > :13:27.several things, to make sure that we secure the recovery, there can be no
:13:28. > :13:31.complacency. The economic recovery is in its early stages and we need
:13:32. > :13:35.to make sure it is sustainable. We need to make sure the benefits of
:13:36. > :13:40.the recovery are shared out people who have made sacrifices, people on
:13:41. > :13:47.low pay, people who have seen their savings are eroded. The Tories have
:13:48. > :13:50.now hijacked another Lib Dem policy, another big hike in the
:13:51. > :13:55.minimum wage. You spoke about the need to make sure that people on low
:13:56. > :14:00.pay benefit from the recovery, a big hike in the minimum wage. Did the
:14:01. > :14:06.Chancellor consulting on this? We have been talking about it for some
:14:07. > :14:11.time. Vince Cable asked the low pay commission for advice on this. Why
:14:12. > :14:16.did Vince Cable not make this announcement, why was it the
:14:17. > :14:20.Chancellor? Let me say a few other things about this. If we are going
:14:21. > :14:24.to secure the recovery, this year we have to make sure that businesses
:14:25. > :14:28.start investing. We have got to get Roddick typically rising. An
:14:29. > :14:34.increase in the minimum wage is something that needs to follow that.
:14:35. > :14:36.We will not do it unless the low pay commission adviser as it is
:14:37. > :14:42.important for the economy at this stage. Did you know the Chancellor
:14:43. > :14:45.was coming out with that statement? I did not know he was going to say
:14:46. > :14:51.something on that particular day. We have worked together on it in the
:14:52. > :14:57.tragedy to see what the economic impact would be, and to emphasise
:14:58. > :15:02.that it is the commission, which has credibility with business, trade
:15:03. > :15:07.unions and government. It must not be a politically motivated increase.
:15:08. > :15:11.So you did not know, and Vince Cable, and it is properly a matter
:15:12. > :15:20.for him as the Business Secretary, he did not make the announcement? I
:15:21. > :15:25.don't think that's right. I don t clear every word I say with him I
:15:26. > :15:34.don't expect him to do the same to me. The Lib Dems have told us before
:15:35. > :15:40.it was the Treasury that was blocking this from happening. We
:15:41. > :15:45.were going to ask the low pay commission to advise us on bringing
:15:46. > :15:50.the minimum wage back up. During the financial crisis, wages have been
:15:51. > :15:59.lower-than-expected but it's also right, we shouldn't act in a hasty
:16:00. > :16:04.way, we should listen to what the commission has to say, and if they
:16:05. > :16:09.don't recommend an increase we have to make sure economic conditions are
:16:10. > :16:13.there to get it right. Not only are the Tories getting credit for that,
:16:14. > :16:19.our Scottish voters group showed that people have still not forgiven
:16:20. > :16:23.you for ratting on tuition fees and that was a broken promise that
:16:24. > :16:29.didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition
:16:30. > :16:37.fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought
:16:38. > :16:42.up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London said we
:16:43. > :16:47.delivered about 70% of our policies in the manifesto. They haven't
:16:48. > :16:56.forgiven you for the big one. The big promise we made was to cut
:16:57. > :17:02.income tax the millions of people. That is a policy which is putting
:17:03. > :17:07.money back into the pockets of working people. It is only possible
:17:08. > :17:11.because we are delivering our economic plan in government with the
:17:12. > :17:18.Conservatives. Now we have to make sure, through tax cuts, through
:17:19. > :17:21.looking at issues like the minimum wage and other groups who have made
:17:22. > :17:28.sacrifices, make sure that benefit is shared. I am not going to agree
:17:29. > :17:31.to anything which undermines the confidence of businesses to invest
:17:32. > :17:40.in this country over the next 1 months. Speaking of Scotland, the
:17:41. > :17:44.Lib Dems, why do they now look largely irrelevant in the battle for
:17:45. > :17:51.the union? Not one of our focus group even knew who your Scottish
:17:52. > :17:57.leader is. I don't accept that. I have spent a lot of time with
:17:58. > :18:04.Alistair Carmichael and others, we are all making the case every day.
:18:05. > :18:09.If Scotland votes to be independent, it will be in a much worse financial
:18:10. > :18:16.position within the European Union. Scotland will be contributing to the
:18:17. > :18:21.rebate for the UK, rather than benefiting from it. It has been a
:18:22. > :18:25.disaster for your Scottish based to have joined a coalition with the
:18:26. > :18:29.Tories. It may have been the right thing to do, you say it is in the
:18:30. > :18:36.national interest, but Scottish Lib Dems did not expect to be in a
:18:37. > :18:39.coalition with the Tories. By the way I think it is also in the
:18:40. > :18:46.national interests and the interests of the people for Scotland, cutting
:18:47. > :18:52.the income tax of Scottish people, stabilising the economy. We are now
:18:53. > :18:59.seeing good growth. But you are in meltdown. I don't accept that. We
:19:00. > :19:05.will see what happens in the 20 5 election. I think we have a record
:19:06. > :19:09.to be proud of, we have played a very important role in clearing up
:19:10. > :19:12.the mess Labour made in the economy, of making sure the
:19:13. > :19:19.Coalition government tackles the problems in this country, but does
:19:20. > :19:23.so in a fair way. I think the biggest risks to the economic
:19:24. > :19:27.recovery over the next few years is either a majority Labour government
:19:28. > :19:32.or a majority Conservative government. Labour you cannot trust
:19:33. > :19:36.with the finances, the Tories want us to play chicken with the European
:19:37. > :19:40.Union which would truly be a disaster to investment in this
:19:41. > :19:45.country. You announced this week that if Scotland votes to leave the
:19:46. > :19:51.UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British
:19:52. > :19:54.government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would
:19:55. > :19:59.be that even if they didn't take anything, we would still guarantee
:20:00. > :20:04.the debt. What was happening in the markets that you needed to calm them
:20:05. > :20:10.down? We were getting quite a few questions from the people we rely on
:20:11. > :20:15.to lend us money. We are still borrowing billions of pounds every
:20:16. > :20:26.month as a country. Those people were asking us to clarify this
:20:27. > :20:32.point. It was becoming a serious concern? It wasn't reflected in the
:20:33. > :20:38.guilty yields. I follow the bond market quite carefully and there was
:20:39. > :20:44.no sign this was having an impact. That's why the right thing to do was
:20:45. > :20:49.to clarify this point now, rather than the concerns being reflected in
:20:50. > :20:52.what you imply, and I think it is a bad idea for Scotland to vote for
:20:53. > :20:57.separation but it would be wrong to allow for the fact that question is
:20:58. > :21:00.on the table to cost taxpayers in the UK more money and higher
:21:01. > :21:05.interest payments simply because Alex Salmond has put that question
:21:06. > :21:10.on the table. That's why I think it was the right thing to do. There
:21:11. > :21:16.were a lot of calls from the focus group that you need to be different.
:21:17. > :21:20.Nick Clegg has embarked on this aggressive differentiation. Where
:21:21. > :21:25.you can be different is the bankers' bonuses. What conceivable
:21:26. > :21:33.reason could there be for anybody at RBS getting a bonus twice in their
:21:34. > :21:39.salary? We have not been approached by RBS in terms of those votes. I
:21:40. > :21:45.would be sceptical about an approach from RBS if it can. It shows what we
:21:46. > :21:53.have presided over as a party in government, massive reductions. .
:21:54. > :22:03.I'm not asking you about that, I'm asking what conceivable case there
:22:04. > :22:06.can be for a bank that has failed to sell its branches even though
:22:07. > :22:12.ordered by the Government, still has 38 billion of toxic debt on its
:22:13. > :22:17.balance sheet, I ask again what possible reason should they get
:22:18. > :22:26.twice salary as a bonus? Your right to say RBS is in a very different
:22:27. > :22:31.position to other banks, it is mostly owned by the state. RBS
:22:32. > :22:36.hasn't put a case to us but they might do so I would like to look at
:22:37. > :22:39.what they would say, but I would be sceptical as to whether a case could
:22:40. > :22:43.be made given some of the things you said, but also the fact that it is a
:22:44. > :22:51.bank that has benefited from the taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS
:22:52. > :22:56.has to focus more on domestic retail. Let me turn to Chris
:22:57. > :23:02.Rennard, ten women have accused him of sexual harassment. He denies
:23:03. > :23:08.every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this
:23:09. > :23:17.as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair
:23:18. > :23:21.Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what
:23:22. > :23:25.happened to a criminal standard that there is clear there has been
:23:26. > :23:31.considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that
:23:32. > :23:40.and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has
:23:41. > :23:45.been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the
:23:46. > :23:49.Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the
:23:50. > :23:54.Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the
:23:55. > :23:59.disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly We
:24:00. > :24:03.are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of
:24:04. > :24:09.Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of
:24:10. > :24:13.complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.
:24:14. > :24:17.The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what
:24:18. > :24:24.action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We
:24:25. > :24:29.as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to
:24:30. > :24:36.change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told
:24:37. > :24:40.that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House
:24:41. > :24:45.of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and
:24:46. > :24:53.welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord
:24:54. > :25:00.Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and
:25:01. > :25:07.welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to
:25:08. > :25:12.deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of
:25:13. > :25:17.apology is totally unacceptable and therefore we have to take steps if
:25:18. > :25:22.that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard
:25:23. > :25:29.should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not
:25:30. > :25:37.forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the
:25:38. > :25:44.end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I
:25:45. > :25:51.hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override
:25:52. > :26:00.Nick Clegg? They have the power to decide who should be the whip. The
:26:01. > :26:07.failure to follow up the simple human demand for an apology for the
:26:08. > :26:18.stress that has been caused is totally unacceptable. Your party is
:26:19. > :26:28.totally down lighted on this -- divided on this. Here is what Lord
:26:29. > :26:34.Carlile had to say. A total nonsense, hyperbole. It is a
:26:35. > :26:39.ridiculous statement to make and we have seen Alistair Webster, the QC
:26:40. > :26:43.who did this investigation, comment on that himself this morning. He has
:26:44. > :26:47.followed the process the party laid down in its rules, which sets the
:26:48. > :26:53.standard for the investigation which asked him to report on the evidence
:26:54. > :27:00.he has found, but he also has a duty of confidentiality and
:27:01. > :27:05.responsibility under the data protection legislation as well. Here
:27:06. > :27:17.is what your activists have said in a letter to the Guardian. This shows
:27:18. > :27:22.there are strong opinions, but why should Chris Rennard apologise for
:27:23. > :27:27.something he denies, unproven allegations, on an unpublished
:27:28. > :27:31.report that Chris Rennard has not been allowed to read? He should
:27:32. > :27:34.apologise because he wants to continue to be a member of the
:27:35. > :27:41.Liberal Democrats and this is the recommendation that has been made by
:27:42. > :27:47.the internal disciplinary process. Webster himself said this was not an
:27:48. > :27:52.inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris Rennard apologises on this basis, he
:27:53. > :27:59.opens himself to civil lawsuits He says he is not going to do it. As a
:28:00. > :28:04.Liberal Democrat you join the party because you believe in its values,
:28:05. > :28:10.you abide by its rules. One of those rules is that we have a process if
:28:11. > :28:16.there are disciplinary allegations. The committee of the party supported
:28:17. > :28:19.Webster's recommendations, one of which was that an apology should be
:28:20. > :28:27.made because he clearly found distress had been caused. Will there
:28:28. > :28:37.now be a proper inquiry? I don't think any of these legalistic
:28:38. > :28:44.things, I don't think he can have it both ways. Will there be a proper
:28:45. > :28:48.inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a proper inquiry. There was a proper
:28:49. > :28:52.report into what happened at the time and we have learned a lot from
:28:53. > :28:58.this is a party, and the most important thing now is that Chris
:28:59. > :29:09.Rennard apologises. You have made that clear. What kind of biscuits
:29:10. > :29:16.are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on the inside? It is good of you to be
:29:17. > :29:21.advertising a Scottish product. We just wondered if you weren't tough
:29:22. > :29:39.enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank you. More than tough enough is the
:29:40. > :29:43.answer to that. Generally governments are a bit
:29:44. > :29:46.rubbish at IT projects. They tend to run way over budget and never quite
:29:47. > :29:49.achieve what they promised. So the revelations of a former spy that the
:29:50. > :29:52.US and British security agencies were in fact astonishingly efficient
:29:53. > :29:55.at eavesdropping on the digital communications of their citizens
:29:56. > :29:57.came as a bit shock. But just how worried should we be about their
:29:58. > :29:59.clandestine activity? In his latest revelation, former US
:30:00. > :30:01.by Edward Snowden has claimed that America's National Security Agency
:30:02. > :30:07.operates a secret database called Dishfire. It collect 200 million
:30:08. > :30:13.mobile phone messages every day from around the world, accessed, he says,
:30:14. > :30:17.why British and American spies. This week, the president has outlined a
:30:18. > :30:21.series of surveillance reforms, including Ning to the storage of the
:30:22. > :30:28.phone call information of millions of Americans, and no Morse -- and no
:30:29. > :30:38.more spying on allies like Angela Merkel. Critics say that the British
:30:39. > :30:42.intelligence agencies have refused to acknowledge even the need for a
:30:43. > :30:45.debate on the issue. The Foreign Secretary William six says that we
:30:46. > :30:53.have a very strong system of checks and balances. -- William Hague. ??
:30:54. > :30:56.new line Nick Pickles is director of the pressure group Big Brother
:30:57. > :30:59.Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in on Parliament's Intelligence And
:31:00. > :31:10.Security Committee. They're here to go head to head.
:31:11. > :31:15.Welcome to both of you. Hazel Blears, let me come to you first.
:31:16. > :31:18.President Obama has made some major changes as a result of what we have
:31:19. > :31:24.learned that the NSA in America was up to. But British politicians seem
:31:25. > :31:29.to, they are not up for this kind of thing, they are hoping it will go
:31:30. > :31:34.away? It is not going away and that is why my committee, the
:31:35. > :31:37.Intelligence And Security Committee, has decided to launch an enquiry
:31:38. > :31:45.into whether the legal framework is up-to-date. We have had massive
:31:46. > :31:50.technological change. We have had a call for evidence. Some of the
:31:51. > :31:54.sessions will be open so that people can see what the evidence is.
:31:55. > :31:59.Obviously some of the information will have to be classified, but on
:32:00. > :32:03.the committee, there is a real commitment to say, there is a big
:32:04. > :32:07.debate going on, let's see if the system is as Rob asked as we can
:32:08. > :32:10.make it. The big question is oversight and the call for evidence
:32:11. > :32:15.that the committee has issued is not mention oversight. It is ten years
:32:16. > :32:22.since the Foreign Affairs Committee said that the committee should be a
:32:23. > :32:29.fully elected committee chosen by Parliament and not the Prime
:32:30. > :32:34.Minister. It has changed, actually. The Prime Minister nominates people
:32:35. > :32:42.and the house gets to him -- gets to approve. In America, they have a
:32:43. > :32:50.separation of power, the president does not nominate Kennedy.
:32:51. > :32:55.Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an establishment lackey? I do not think
:32:56. > :32:59.so. Most of the people on the committee have some experience of
:33:00. > :33:03.intelligence and these issues. In this country, we have robust
:33:04. > :33:07.scrutiny, compared to some of her European neighbours. We have
:33:08. > :33:13.Parliamentary scrutiny, the interception commissioners, and
:33:14. > :33:16.ministers have to sign the warrants. But there may be room for
:33:17. > :33:23.improvement, which is why we are having the enquiry. Do not forget,
:33:24. > :33:27.President Obama said that the agency should not have the ability to
:33:28. > :33:31.collect data, he wanted to put more safeguards in. That is essential for
:33:32. > :33:35.the work of the agencies. If you cannot see the data, you cannot take
:33:36. > :33:40.the connections and see the patterns. Some people never talk
:33:41. > :33:45.about the threat from terrorism, it is all about travesty. There are
:33:46. > :33:50.several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are
:33:51. > :33:55.actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in
:33:56. > :33:59.the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have
:34:00. > :34:06.been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.
:34:07. > :34:12.Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It
:34:13. > :34:18.is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce
:34:19. > :34:22.that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two
:34:23. > :34:29.different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not
:34:30. > :34:32.get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if
:34:33. > :34:38.you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end
:34:39. > :34:43.not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the
:34:44. > :34:49.committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on
:34:50. > :34:54.7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look
:34:55. > :34:59.at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did
:35:00. > :35:05.you not have them on the radar? The agencies are between a rock and a
:35:06. > :35:10.hard race. They have got to be subject to oversight, but beanie
:35:11. > :35:16.capability. Did you know about Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular
:35:17. > :35:22.basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some
:35:23. > :35:29.of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did
:35:30. > :35:34.you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to
:35:35. > :35:39.get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we
:35:40. > :35:43.had the capability to collect data, and these days, people do not write
:35:44. > :35:49.letters, they do not use landline telephones, they use the Internet
:35:50. > :35:52.and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up
:35:53. > :36:00.with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal
:36:01. > :36:04.framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google
:36:05. > :36:10.and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.
:36:11. > :36:15.In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in
:36:16. > :36:19.the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are
:36:20. > :36:24.secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different
:36:25. > :36:28.door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence. We
:36:29. > :36:36.need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off. The
:36:37. > :36:40.final 30 seconds to you. As a result of the changes in the Justice and
:36:41. > :36:44.Security act, the committee is accountable to Parliament and not
:36:45. > :36:48.the Prime Minister. Those changes are taking place, and I am up for
:36:49. > :36:53.the debate if we need more change or not. But I want British agencies to
:36:54. > :36:58.have more power to protect the people in this country. Thank you to
:36:59. > :37:01.both of you. It's coming up to 11:40. You're watching the Sunday
:37:02. > :37:04.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, we'll get the verdict of
:37:05. > :37:29.the Minister for Portsmouth on that dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch!
:37:30. > :37:42.In the East Midlands, the educational crisis in our region. We
:37:43. > :37:47.are in a `` inside one school to find out about the special measures.
:37:48. > :37:58.People ask me what school I went to. They'd apply, was this `` that the
:37:59. > :38:03.school that was in the news? How much money would you want to allow
:38:04. > :38:13.fracking New Year all? Would you hold out for ?1 million? `` near
:38:14. > :38:17.your home. I am joined by Pauline Latham and Graham Allen. Welcome to
:38:18. > :38:24.you both. Pauline, you have been raising a topic, MPs are reluctant
:38:25. > :38:37.to go there, relationships. You were talking about a debate regarding
:38:38. > :38:41.Relate. They are well`known for dealing with families with
:38:42. > :38:47.Asperger's syndrome. They also deal with, not just men and women, they
:38:48. > :38:55.deal with all sorts of relationships, the councils, to
:38:56. > :38:59.councils want to cut the funding. It will cost more money for social
:39:00. > :39:06.services and schools if they do that. But do they have a choice? You
:39:07. > :39:11.are imposing these huge cuts so they have to make these cuts elsewhere.
:39:12. > :39:14.The government has put in ?30 million towards relationship
:39:15. > :39:20.counselling and what we want them to do is to do things locally. So that
:39:21. > :39:25.services are not cut. We are asking them to prioritise this because it
:39:26. > :39:30.will save them money in the long`term. In these difficult times,
:39:31. > :39:38.it is advice and support that Relate offer, is a top priority? It is a
:39:39. > :39:42.priority. We need to protect those services. Unfortunately, if we take
:39:43. > :39:48.a council like Derby or Nottingham, we are losing half of the government
:39:49. > :39:52.grants coming from the Department of communities in government in five
:39:53. > :39:57.years. If you were to lose half of your grant or your funding or any
:39:58. > :40:02.viewer to do that, you would realise that a lot has to go. This is a
:40:03. > :40:07.priority and social services will have to pick up the problems if
:40:08. > :40:12.Relate do not do their job. It will cost the council is more in the long
:40:13. > :40:18.run. Onto another troubled relationship, that between teachers
:40:19. > :40:22.and Ofsted. Six of Nottingham's 14 secondary schools are in special
:40:23. > :40:27.measures after an Ofsted bullets at the end of last year. With the
:40:28. > :40:31.problems at the Al`Madina school in Derby, many teachers say there is a
:40:32. > :40:38.sense of crisis in the system. One school that field the inspection
:40:39. > :40:51.said it is already back contract. `` that field. `` that failed.
:40:52. > :40:56.Its schools inspected by Ofsted in one week, the majority declared
:40:57. > :41:00.inadequate and put in special measures. What is it like being put
:41:01. > :41:06.in the spotlight, being told you're still is not very good, especially
:41:07. > :41:12.when the GCSE exams are a few months ago `` away? People ask me what
:41:13. > :41:19.school I went in. When I replied they say, was that the school that
:41:20. > :41:26.was in the news? I say yes. We see Will we ever boost our reputation?
:41:27. > :41:36.We do not want to hit the bottom already. It was quite low but now I
:41:37. > :41:44.am pleased with the Euro Levantine. It has improved a lot. `` year 11
:41:45. > :41:48.team. The timetable has been rewritten each year to put more
:41:49. > :41:54.focus on those about to set their exams. The commitment to students
:41:55. > :41:58.has always been there but now we are able to focus that commitment and
:41:59. > :42:04.make sure that the kids have got the best chance to achieve the best
:42:05. > :42:11.results they can. There is more choice available now. I will, it was
:42:12. > :42:18.result. The Ofsted swoop in Nottingham was described as
:42:19. > :42:21.destructive by some. For these leaders here it served the
:42:22. > :42:28.weaknesses they knew that existed at the school. It was our assessment of
:42:29. > :42:35.systems that led us to decide that we needed to change the way the
:42:36. > :42:46.school was chained `` functioning fundamentally. Were you surprised?
:42:47. > :42:50.No. We found the process to be positive. It is no secret that
:42:51. > :42:55.Nottingham's schools lag behind the regional averages. While this one
:42:56. > :43:06.except the Ofsted Berdych, elsewhere there is concern. The inspector's
:43:07. > :43:10.these may be advancing free schools. Five out of the six failing schools
:43:11. > :43:14.are in your constituency. What is the latest you have heard? The way
:43:15. > :43:18.that Ofsted came and was discouraging both to teachers and
:43:19. > :43:23.pupils. They need to know they are doing a good job but need to do
:43:24. > :43:27.better. So two things, one there will be a challenge board set up to
:43:28. > :43:33.help us deal with the media problems and help school leadership to go
:43:34. > :43:37.through. But what I am concerned about is that we tackle the
:43:38. > :43:41.long`term problems. Ofsted have been in my constituency now for the last
:43:42. > :43:45.20 years and they are not having a strategic view. What we need to do
:43:46. > :43:50.is improve the supply, the wrong material, so that children arrive at
:43:51. > :43:54.primary school ready and they arrive at secondary school ready there.
:43:55. > :44:00.Teachers are told us they think there is a political move here to
:44:01. > :44:05.pave the way for more free schools. It may or may not be true. What is
:44:06. > :44:09.important is that we try and tackle these long`term problems. Otherwise
:44:10. > :44:13.we will keep hurting our head against a brick while every single
:44:14. > :44:17.year. Above all we need to help those babies and children be ready
:44:18. > :44:26.for school on that first aired `` first day. The Ofsted report have
:44:27. > :44:30.also mentioned that some children do not arrive ready. We need Ofsted and
:44:31. > :44:36.the Department of education to say that. I have been to see Michael
:44:37. > :44:46.Gove and the chief of Ofsted to make sure they get this message. Ofsted
:44:47. > :44:51.were in the primary schools last year. Have they turned it around in
:44:52. > :44:59.Derby? There is more features on the schools and they have not been
:45:00. > :45:16.allowed to slap and carry on. `` ball`carriers. `` focus. If they do
:45:17. > :45:20.not do that, it will not improve. It does not look good that these two
:45:21. > :45:27.cities have such problems in education. Some of these schools are
:45:28. > :45:32.not local academy `` authority schools. I would hope the Pauline
:45:33. > :45:38.would agree with me that it is pointless and having a 1% or 2%
:45:39. > :45:42.increase in schools, we need to address the fundamentals. You went
:45:43. > :45:49.to London to try and address some of the issues with Michael Gove. A few
:45:50. > :45:54.months later, the teachers that you had taken with you, they found out
:45:55. > :45:59.that their schools were in special measures. I will not make any
:46:00. > :46:03.personal criticisms of Michael Gove, what is vital is that politicians
:46:04. > :46:07.and Ofsted don't have the short`term view of what we want to do for this
:46:08. > :46:11.year or next year, but really help us get the wrong material sorted
:46:12. > :46:17.out. That way all kids will attain and to better at school, which is
:46:18. > :46:27.what we all want. We did ask Michael Gove to speak to us, but he was
:46:28. > :46:32.unavailable for interview. We had another official who said they would
:46:33. > :46:36.speak to us. Are you telling me that parents
:46:37. > :46:40.would want us to work together to improve things for the children? One
:46:41. > :46:47.of the things that I know since we have doing `` doneness, everyone is
:46:48. > :46:52.talking about education. I would want my children to be at schools
:46:53. > :46:57.that were good schools that were meeting their needs. So, parents,
:46:58. > :47:02.good. We have children voting with their feet in Nottingham. We have
:47:03. > :47:07.the lowest attendance and secondary schools almost across the country,
:47:08. > :47:11.so is going wrong. We need to get children in school succeeding,
:47:12. > :47:15.enjoying what is happening and coming out with things that matter
:47:16. > :47:21.to them. At the moment to many of them are not coming. Let's get them
:47:22. > :47:24.into school, let's get them succeeding. Perhaps it is the
:47:25. > :47:30.culture of the city that is the problem here. Is it an attitude of
:47:31. > :47:33.low attainment? From the reports from the schools that have failed,
:47:34. > :47:40.there is a consistent message that talks about low expectations. I
:47:41. > :47:44.think it is easy to say that. I think there are low expectations.
:47:45. > :47:49.But that is not for one minute to say they are not huge challenges
:47:50. > :47:53.here. Yes, I know there are other cities like Liverpool that to face
:47:54. > :47:58.similar challenges. The challenges are not unique but that is not to
:47:59. > :48:04.underestimate them. So no quick answers here, but yes, there is a
:48:05. > :48:08.culture. There has been a culture, it is embedded in some places which
:48:09. > :48:16.size these young people won't achieve any more. That is rubbish,
:48:17. > :48:20.they will. `` which say that these. Maybe it is the parents who are to
:48:21. > :48:26.blame here not the children? No, I think what we need to do is work
:48:27. > :48:30.together. But what we have not got yet... Some of the children are
:48:31. > :48:36.being sent to school in nappies by the parents. They were children who
:48:37. > :48:40.were not raised properly, there is an intergenerational cycle. We need
:48:41. > :48:44.to work on the long`term. What I did not hear from Ofsted was what I've
:48:45. > :48:49.reports to the board in Nottingham was that there should be a ten year
:48:50. > :48:56.plan so we help parents and babies before they even get to school, so
:48:57. > :49:01.they can achieve when we `` they get there. Ofsted seem to be willing the
:49:02. > :49:06.ends but not on the means. Let's get that strategy. They are there to
:49:07. > :49:10.inspect, not to set their plans and targets for the schools. We need
:49:11. > :49:15.some answers as well saying they are not good. It is their heads that
:49:16. > :49:19.need to do that strategic view of the tenuous. The parents need to
:49:20. > :49:23.have high expectations of the schools and of their own children.
:49:24. > :49:28.But if you do not get children into school, you cannot educate them. One
:49:29. > :49:32.of the problems here in this area seems to be getting children into
:49:33. > :49:36.school. Graham is right, it is about early years and focusing them. Do
:49:37. > :49:41.you think the parents are to blame? They are. They have not been
:49:42. > :49:49.inherited properly and we need to cycle `` in that cycle. `` parented.
:49:50. > :49:55.We need a strategic view that they want to go for it and improve
:49:56. > :50:00.education for everybody. We have six secondary schools in Nottingham
:50:01. > :50:04.failing. That was a miscalculation about blitzing people. If you want
:50:05. > :50:08.people to be sensible and rational and have good behaviour, you have to
:50:09. > :50:14.start with Ofsted. Maybe Ofsted should be in measured `` special
:50:15. > :50:18.measures. It has pointed out the problems but we need Ofsted and the
:50:19. > :50:23.Department of education to work locally to improve standards. When
:50:24. > :50:28.the Prime Minister decided to become a `` to make a major speech on
:50:29. > :50:35.fracking, he came to our area to make it. Looking at the map of areas
:50:36. > :50:40.under consideration, it shows that most of the East Midlands is under
:50:41. > :50:44.consideration. You can see it concentrates at the moment on the
:50:45. > :50:48.north of the region. Any fracking would first have to get planning
:50:49. > :50:52.permission and our councils report that so far they have had no
:50:53. > :50:56.applications. In the meantime the government is trying to get support
:50:57. > :50:59.with an offer to compensate communities and individuals who
:51:00. > :51:05.suffer. The point I would make having been to see yesterday, on
:51:06. > :51:08.Monday, the oil platforms that are already there on the
:51:09. > :51:12.Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire border, it is worth making the point
:51:13. > :51:16.that those went ahead without the sort of community benefit is that we
:51:17. > :51:26.are promising the shale. ?100,000 when he well is dug. 1% of revenues
:51:27. > :51:34.which could be seven to ?10 million for a well. And 100% retention of
:51:35. > :51:40.business rates for a set of Wells for a local authority. Is it a
:51:41. > :51:43.tempting offer? Des Coleman has followed the Prime Minister to find
:51:44. > :51:48.out if the people in one area I tempted by the money.
:51:49. > :51:54.This is Worksop high Street. David Cameron was up the street saying
:51:55. > :52:00.that people would get a share from the profits from fracking. Is that
:52:01. > :52:05.enough for the people here? I think it is too dangerous. It can affect
:52:06. > :52:10.the water supply, it can cause earthquakes in various areas. I am
:52:11. > :52:14.not happy with it at all. I need definite proof that we are
:52:15. > :52:17.guaranteed it will not cause any ill effects to the environment. David
:52:18. > :52:21.Cameron says some of the profits may go to the people are some of the
:52:22. > :52:27.local councils. Can we always believe what politicians say? Can
:52:28. > :52:33.we? Really? I think fracking is a good idea if it takes us away from
:52:34. > :52:39.coal. We need the energy, then why not. My concern was that in France
:52:40. > :52:43.it has been banned, but it is a French company I have heard is
:52:44. > :52:47.coming over to the UK to do it here. I was concerned it is not all right
:52:48. > :52:52.for the French but it is all right for the English. It is a load of
:52:53. > :52:59.rubbish. I do not think politicians do for ordinary people. It would be
:53:00. > :53:04.a miracle if it works here. If the pollution or whatever they are using
:53:05. > :53:09.for the fracking gets into the water system, we don't know the long`term
:53:10. > :53:14.solution or the long`term problems we may have. What about the
:53:15. > :53:18.financial benefits that David Cameron is offering? I think it is a
:53:19. > :53:23.little bit of blackmail. Plenty of interesting views there. We are
:53:24. > :53:31.joined by a Green party councillor in Nottinghamshire. Wellcome. A lot
:53:32. > :53:35.of people there we heard very cautious really about fracking,
:53:36. > :53:41.especially in the places that they live in. What are your concerns
:53:42. > :53:45.particularly? We have huge concerns about the environmental risks.
:53:46. > :53:49.Fracking requires a large amount of water. It is about half 1 million
:53:50. > :53:54.tonnes per fracked of which 50% of the water is completely lost and
:53:55. > :54:02.nobody knows where it actually ends up in there is a risk of polluting
:54:03. > :54:08.our aquifers. The water that reads services has got chemicals additives
:54:09. > :54:14.in it. `` resurfaces. We do not know what to do with it or who will be
:54:15. > :54:18.paying for that polluted water. There are some risks are about
:54:19. > :54:23.earthquakes as we have seen in Blackpool. House prices have fallen
:54:24. > :54:28.significantly since then. Obviously the industry would despite some of
:54:29. > :54:34.the points you have made. `` dispute. The industry could say we
:54:35. > :54:39.are sitting on billions perhaps billions of pounds worth of gas.
:54:40. > :54:45.Those are estimates and in the States we have seen those estimates
:54:46. > :54:50.were hugely overestimated by 42% and there is far less than they are.
:54:51. > :54:57.Nobody has gone down there and seen how much there actually is. So you
:54:58. > :55:02.are saying you the `` were right to be cautious? That is right. David
:55:03. > :55:07.Cameron says that these are incentives that communities will
:55:08. > :55:15.find hard to turn down? There is a lot of profit to be made via the
:55:16. > :55:22.companies, it should be invested in the local communities. `` made by
:55:23. > :55:26.the companies. Politicians are not flavour of the month and nobody
:55:27. > :55:34.believes we do anything. The proof will be in... Whether we give it and
:55:35. > :55:38.we get it will be shown. They will be able to say whether it is
:55:39. > :55:44.actually happening. Where you stand on, Graham? Were David Cameron went
:55:45. > :55:49.to visit is a few miles away from where my dad was a minor and we
:55:50. > :55:53.missed a trick in Mrs Thatcher and others closing the pets. We have the
:55:54. > :56:05.technology to burn coal cleanly but that chance is gone. My view is this
:56:06. > :56:08.is a non`proven industry. Couldn't the money from fracking help to
:56:09. > :56:16.regenerate the area is your talking about? Are we missing something
:56:17. > :56:19.there? This is ridiculous. We are facing an energy crisis. Sooner or
:56:20. > :56:25.later we will run out of fossil fuels so we need to invest now in
:56:26. > :56:33.insulating homes. But fracking could be one of the anger `` and that? For
:56:34. > :56:37.years now we in the Green party have been saying we need to start with
:56:38. > :56:44.renewables. It is not happening enough. We did not know about this
:56:45. > :56:50.gas 20 years ago. Let's use that now and invest in the future when we
:56:51. > :56:54.know that will run out. What they do in America they do we out in the
:56:55. > :57:02.plains, there is virtually no people out there. We now and I'm `` in our
:57:03. > :57:08.region where we extract coal there is subsidised. They are looking
:57:09. > :57:13.around the non`dash`mac Nottinghamshire`literature border.
:57:14. > :57:20.We are talking about the majority of the East Midlands. You are saying we
:57:21. > :57:28.are not, Pauline? There is nothing in Northamptonshire. There is not in
:57:29. > :57:34.Lincolnshire. It is concentrated at the border at the moment and we will
:57:35. > :57:38.have to see how that pans out. You seem to be saying it will be much
:57:39. > :57:45.more widespread. It is the majority of Nottinghamshire. Something else I
:57:46. > :57:51.would like to add here, we are facing a huge environmental crisis.
:57:52. > :57:55.Burning further fossil fuels is actually contributing to this. We
:57:56. > :57:59.must change because as we have just seen this winter with all the
:58:00. > :58:03.floods, the big freeze in the States, this costs as a lot of money
:58:04. > :58:12.and human lives. So burning further coal or gas, is not the answer. The
:58:13. > :58:16.councils have not had any applications in and they have not
:58:17. > :58:21.sign anything off. We will have to leave that there. This has not been
:58:22. > :58:26.proven, not reducing conservation. With a round`up of other news, here
:58:27. > :58:36.is our political editor the 60 seconds.
:58:37. > :58:39.Lester's Sikh community is calling for an independent enquiry into
:58:40. > :58:48.claims that the British military helped plan the assault in the
:58:49. > :58:54.Golden Temple in Amritsar. People are being asked to write to their
:58:55. > :59:09.local MPs over the issue. British Gas are being asked about a scheme
:59:10. > :59:13.that they have pulled out of to help people reduce gas costs.
:59:14. > :59:20.British Gas says government changes means a cannot fund the scheme.
:59:21. > :59:28.Finally, a mouse. Yes, Pauline Latham's offers in the Commons has
:59:29. > :59:39.been invested `` infested by mice. Where their traps in the question?
:59:40. > :59:43.Really? Where are all these most coming from and what are you doing
:59:44. > :59:50.about it? I do not know where they have come from. After Christmas we
:59:51. > :59:58.saw three on the desk. The whole lot was covered... Did you leave
:59:59. > :00:13.inspired out? No. I did not want to touch anything. `` a mince pie. I
:00:14. > :00:18.have seen a lot of mice in the House of Commons but when I want to see a
:00:19. > :00:20.rat, I have to go into the chamber. I knew you would say something like
:00:21. > :00:31.that. houses being built by the mayor.
:00:32. > :00:37.Andrew, back to you. Welcome back. Now she made quite a splash last
:00:38. > :00:41.night. I am talking, of course, of the Portsmouth North MP, Penny
:00:42. > :00:44.Mordaunt. If you missed her first appearance in ITV's celebrity diving
:00:45. > :00:59.competition show, here she is in action.
:01:00. > :01:16.APPLAUSE Here is a lady who is more used to
:01:17. > :01:22.campaigning for votes than diving for them. She created far too much
:01:23. > :01:34.rotation. Hard work has gone into the start of this dive to try and
:01:35. > :01:37.control it. That looked painful Now the Portsmouth North MP got voted
:01:38. > :01:40.off the show last night but what about the verdict that really
:01:41. > :01:42.matters? The newly appointed Minister for Portsmouth, Michael
:01:43. > :01:49.Fallon, is here. Welcome to the programme. I would give her ten out
:01:50. > :01:53.of ten for bravery. I was cheering her on. She was doing this for a
:01:54. > :02:01.local charity, raising money for the local swimming pool. She was a good
:02:02. > :02:04.sport. As Minister for Portsmouth, can we expect to see you in your
:02:05. > :02:09.swimming trunks for the next series? I do not think I have the
:02:10. > :02:14.spare time at the moment. But there is a big challenge in Portsmouth.
:02:15. > :02:20.Penny Mordaunt and the other local MPs there have been remorseless in
:02:21. > :02:27.asking ministers to help the city. They are losing jobs. There is a
:02:28. > :02:33.goblin Trinity -- there is a big opportunity to create jobs. Should
:02:34. > :02:37.she have been on a celebrity television show of their role these
:02:38. > :02:43.problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising
:02:44. > :02:50.money for a good cause. I do not think we should eat two sniffy about
:02:51. > :02:56.it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your
:02:57. > :03:04.programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare
:03:05. > :03:11.time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for
:03:12. > :03:15.Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we
:03:16. > :03:18.going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury
:03:19. > :03:26.does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth
:03:27. > :03:31.has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in
:03:32. > :03:36.a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There
:03:37. > :03:41.are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My
:03:42. > :03:46.job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure
:03:47. > :03:49.that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more
:03:50. > :03:53.broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal
:03:54. > :03:59.seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats
:04:00. > :04:09.everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince
:04:10. > :04:12.Cable and I have been working together for the issues that
:04:13. > :04:18.Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have
:04:19. > :04:22.the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is
:04:23. > :04:27.coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have
:04:28. > :04:34.been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers
:04:35. > :04:39.for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is
:04:40. > :04:42.properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this
:04:43. > :04:49.challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul
:04:50. > :04:54.faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay
:04:55. > :05:00.you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC
:05:01. > :05:06.covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.
:05:07. > :05:11.She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do
:05:12. > :05:16.this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for
:05:17. > :05:22.Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not
:05:23. > :05:26.have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we
:05:27. > :05:31.have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said no?
:05:32. > :05:39.Does this mean that Portsmouth is more deprived economic late than the
:05:40. > :05:41.north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.
:05:42. > :05:44.The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew Marr programme this
:05:45. > :05:47.morning and he outlined plans under a Labour government for an annual
:05:48. > :05:49.competition audit. Here is what he had to say. The next Labour
:05:50. > :05:53.government will have an annual competition at it, not just done by
:05:54. > :05:58.the regulatory body. Alongside them will be the citizens advice bureau,
:05:59. > :06:01.setting the agenda for the future, setting the agenda for how we can
:06:02. > :06:07.ensure that competition will benefit consumers and businesses. I want to
:06:08. > :06:09.see Labour going into the next election as the party of
:06:10. > :06:15.competition, the party of the consumer, the party of hard-pressed
:06:16. > :06:18.working families who are struggling. They need somebody to deal with
:06:19. > :06:23.those issues and that is what the next Labour government will do. I
:06:24. > :06:29.thought you were meant to be the party of competition? We are the
:06:30. > :06:34.party of competition. This is the party that has given us some of
:06:35. > :06:36.these problems. We have an annual competition review in the energy
:06:37. > :06:43.sector. We have already tackling banking. What is interesting about
:06:44. > :06:46.his proposal is it is the smaller ones who are less sure about this,
:06:47. > :06:51.the smaller banks who think that this could inhibit the growth. It is
:06:52. > :06:54.the smaller energy companies who think that through interfering with
:06:55. > :07:00.the market, through his price freeze, that he will hinder
:07:01. > :07:07.competition. We spoke about this before. It is a clever pitch that Ed
:07:08. > :07:12.Miliband is making. Under the guise of token markets and claiming to be
:07:13. > :07:18.the party of competition, he is creating the reason for state
:07:19. > :07:22.intervention? -- broken markets Exactly, and it is state
:07:23. > :07:29.intervention that does not work There is a proud tradition in
:07:30. > :07:34.government of smashing open cartels. Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a
:07:35. > :07:37.century ago. The problem is, in those situations it was clear and
:07:38. > :07:44.obvious that the consumers were suffering. I am not sure it is
:07:45. > :07:48.entirely obvious in this country. In the banking sector we have free
:07:49. > :07:53.current accounts in the high street. That is not true in all Western
:07:54. > :07:56.countries. In the energy sector our bills are not outlandish they high.
:07:57. > :08:03.It is when we take taxes into account the become unaffordable He
:08:04. > :08:08.has to make the case that consumers are suffering as a result of these
:08:09. > :08:13.monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it is not about state intervention but
:08:14. > :08:17.about making markets work. The piece that was written by his intellectual
:08:18. > :08:21.Duryea about the significance and the importance of Teddy Roosevelt.
:08:22. > :08:27.He was the Republican president in the yearly -- in the early years of
:08:28. > :08:35.the last century. He wanted markets to work. There is an interesting
:08:36. > :08:40.debate on Twitter this morning. Tim Montgomerie is saying, why are we,
:08:41. > :08:50.the Conservative Party, not seen as the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are
:08:51. > :08:54.seen as the party of business. There are smaller energy companies
:08:55. > :08:59.competing against the big six. In banking, we have seen smaller
:09:00. > :09:04.companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six
:09:05. > :09:09.energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the
:09:10. > :09:14.Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign
:09:15. > :09:18.policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme
:09:19. > :09:23.candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that
:09:24. > :09:32.may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is
:09:33. > :09:39.these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the
:09:40. > :09:45.Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went
:09:46. > :09:50.in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a
:09:51. > :09:56.repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The
:09:57. > :10:01.instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not
:10:02. > :10:07.to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not
:10:08. > :10:12.ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall
:10:13. > :10:18.be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it It
:10:19. > :10:24.is not global warming that is causing the floods, it is gay
:10:25. > :10:28.marriage? That explains it. Last year David Cameron offered a coded
:10:29. > :10:32.retraction of his statement that UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think
:10:33. > :10:38.he will be tempted to retract the retraction. It is a warning to lots
:10:39. > :10:45.of Tories who think that their best interests are served by flirting
:10:46. > :10:49.with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage is a very plausible guy, but several
:10:50. > :10:55.layers down, there are people who are very different. Nigel Farage is
:10:56. > :11:00.saying that he's going to clear the party out of what Mr Cameron called
:11:01. > :11:05.the fruitcakes. If he is true to his word, Mr Sylvester's days in the
:11:06. > :11:15.party should they numbered. If Nigel Farage falls under the bus, what is
:11:16. > :11:20.left of place -- what is left of UKIP? People say that they like UKIP
:11:21. > :11:26.because unlike other politicians, they speak their mind. But as it
:11:27. > :11:32.turns into more of a proper organisation, people speaking their
:11:33. > :11:36.mind will be less acceptable. The European elections are always a
:11:37. > :11:40.protest vote. People are not happy with the elite. You will get people
:11:41. > :11:46.saying utterly ridiculous things like that man in Henley-on-Thames.
:11:47. > :11:49.But this is a chance to vote against the entire political establishment.
:11:50. > :11:58.I am not sure that comments like that will make much of a difference.
:11:59. > :12:03.There are lots of arguments about climate change. That was certainly a
:12:04. > :12:07.new one! They are the only big protest party at the moment. Protest
:12:08. > :12:13.party is obviously hoovered up lots of votes. We have got to be clear in
:12:14. > :12:17.European message that we are the only party that can reform Europe
:12:18. > :12:23.and give people a proper choice the first referendum in over 40 years.
:12:24. > :12:27.Mr Sylvester used to be a conservative. You're probably glad
:12:28. > :12:33.to see the back of him? David Cameron is right, there are probably
:12:34. > :12:36.a few fruitcakes around there. I think that mainstream conservatives
:12:37. > :12:42.will understand that this is the only party that can secure European
:12:43. > :12:46.reform and give people the choice they have been arguing for. Whatever
:12:47. > :12:52.happens in the European elections, it is a protest vote. We have almost
:12:53. > :12:55.run out of time. We will see this week of Chris Rennard gets the party
:12:56. > :13:01.whip act. There is a battle brewing between Danny Alexander and the
:13:02. > :13:06.common side of the Liberal Democrats and the House of Lords. If he turns
:13:07. > :13:14.up on Monday and asks to be let in, I they going to make a big scene at
:13:15. > :13:20.the gate of Parliament? And the issue will stay in the papers? Yes,
:13:21. > :13:28.they are clearly nervous that Lord Rennard might be tempted to mount a
:13:29. > :13:32.legal bid. That is all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily
:13:33. > :13:37.Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two. And I will be here again
:13:38. > :13:39.next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.