:00:37. > :00:42.Politics. Politics.
:00:43. > :00:45.Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.
:00:46. > :00:50.He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back
:00:51. > :00:54.the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old
:00:55. > :00:57.Labour? If you go to work by public
:00:58. > :01:00.transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -
:01:01. > :01:04.again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's
:01:05. > :01:07.our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week
:01:08. > :01:12.across much of the UK, but what's the outlook according to this man?
:01:13. > :01:18.This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party veterans
:01:19. > :01:23.In the East Midlands: The council`funded centre that finds
:01:24. > :01:43.jobs for migrant workers. A waste And with me - as always - the
:01:44. > :01:46.political panel so fresh-faced, entertaining and downright popular
:01:47. > :01:48.they make Justin Bieber look like a boring old has-been just desperate
:01:49. > :01:51.to get your attention. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and
:01:52. > :02:05.they'll be tweeting quicker than a yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami
:02:06. > :02:11.Beach. Being political nerds, they have no idea what I'm talking about.
:02:12. > :02:15.Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all yesterday. We kinda thought Labour
:02:16. > :02:19.would head for the election with a return to the 50p top rate of tax.
:02:20. > :02:23.But we didn't think he'd do it now. He did! The polls say it's popular,
:02:24. > :02:27.Labour activists now have a spring in their step. The Tories say it's a
:02:28. > :02:29.return to the bad old days of the '70s, and bosses now think Labour is
:02:30. > :02:32.anti-business. Here's the Shadow Chancellor speaking earlier this
:02:33. > :02:35.morning. I was part of a Government which did very many things to open
:02:36. > :02:37.up markets, to make the Bank of England independent, to work closely
:02:38. > :02:39.with business, but the reality is we are in very difficult circumstances
:02:40. > :02:41.and because if I'm honest you, George Osborne's failure in the last
:02:42. > :02:45.few years, those difficult circumstances will last into the
:02:46. > :02:56.next Parliament. Business people have said to me they want to get the
:02:57. > :03:02.deficit down, of course they do But to cut the top rate... It is foolish
:03:03. > :03:05.and feeds resentment I want to do the opposite and say look,
:03:06. > :03:10.pro-business, pro investment, pro market, but pro fairness. Let's get
:03:11. > :03:16.this deficit down in a fairway and make the reforms to make our economy
:03:17. > :03:23.work for the long term. What are the political implications of Labour now
:03:24. > :03:27.in favour of a 50%, in practise 352% top rate of tax? One of the
:03:28. > :03:31.political implications I don't think exist is that they'll win new
:03:32. > :03:34.voters. I'm not sure many people out there would think, I would love to
:03:35. > :03:42.vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not sure if he wants to tax rich people
:03:43. > :03:47.enough. It will con Dale their existing vote but I don't think it
:03:48. > :03:52.is the kind of, in the 1990s we talked about triangulation, moving
:03:53. > :03:56.beyond your core vote, I don't think it is a policy like that. If there
:03:57. > :03:59.has been a policy like that this year, this month, it has been the
:04:00. > :04:04.Tories' move on minimum wage. I thought Labour would come back with
:04:05. > :04:09.their own version, a centre-right policy, and instead they have done
:04:10. > :04:13.this. I think we talk about the 35% strategy that Labour supposed will
:04:14. > :04:19.have, I think it is a policy in that direction rather than the thing Tony
:04:20. > :04:27.Blair or Gordon Brown would have done. Where he was not clear is on
:04:28. > :04:32.how much it would raise. We know the sum in the grand scheme of things
:04:33. > :04:40.isn't much, the bedroom tax was about sending a message. What we are
:04:41. > :04:44.going to see is George Osborne and Ed Balls lock as they try to push
:04:45. > :04:53.the other one into saying things that are unpopular. The Tories,
:04:54. > :04:58.?150,000 a year, that's exactly where Ed Balls want them to be. All
:04:59. > :05:02.three main parties have roughly the same plan, to run a current budget
:05:03. > :05:07.surplus by the end of the next Parliament. George Osborne said ?12
:05:08. > :05:12.billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said how he is going to do it. Ed Balls
:05:13. > :05:17.is giving an idea that he is going to restore this 50 persons rate The
:05:18. > :05:22.contribution of that will be deminimus. It is not much, but what
:05:23. > :05:27.does it say about your values. Because it is that package, it is
:05:28. > :05:30.cleverer than people think. Where the challenge is is the question
:05:31. > :05:34.that Peter Mandelson posed at the last election, which is can the
:05:35. > :05:39.Labour Party win a general election if it doesn't have business on its
:05:40. > :05:42.side? That's the big challenge and that's the question looking
:05:43. > :05:48.difficult for them this morning Does it matter if Labour has
:05:49. > :05:52.business on its side. I thought the most fascinating thing about this
:05:53. > :05:57.announcement is it came from the guy mindful of business support, Ed
:05:58. > :06:01.Balls. When in opposition and when a Minister and as a shadow as a
:06:02. > :06:07.result, he's been far more conscious than Ed Miliband about the need not
:06:08. > :06:12.to alienate the CB Bill. In the run-up of an election. This is a
:06:13. > :06:17.measure of Ed Miliband's strength in the Labour Party, that his view of
:06:18. > :06:22.things can prevail so easily over a guy who for the last 15 years has
:06:23. > :06:27.taken a different view. Eight out of ten businesses according to the CBI
:06:28. > :06:34.don't want us to leave business Business is in a bit of a cleft
:06:35. > :06:36.stick. Ed Miliband would like to see businesses squealing, and Ed Balls
:06:37. > :06:41.is clearly not so comfortable on that one. There's a difference on
:06:42. > :06:45.that. Mind you, they were squealing this morning from Davos. They
:06:46. > :06:50.probably had hangovers as well. The other thing they would say is this
:06:51. > :06:55.is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p is the optimal rate forever, it what
:06:56. > :07:00.go eventually. Isn't that what politicians said when income tax was
:07:01. > :07:04.introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour regarded 40 persons as the rate
:07:05. > :07:10.where it would stay. It's been a bad week for the Lib
:07:11. > :07:13.Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one of the worst weeks yet for Nick
:07:14. > :07:16.Clegg and his party in recent memory, as they've gone from talking
:07:17. > :07:18.confidently about their role in Government to facing a storm of
:07:19. > :07:21.criticism over claims of inappropriate sexual behaviour by a
:07:22. > :07:26.Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's
:07:27. > :07:30.Giles with the story of the week. A challenge to Nick Clegg's authority
:07:31. > :07:35.as he face as growing row over the Liberal Democrat... I want everyone
:07:36. > :07:39.to be treated with respect by the Liberal Democrats. We are expecting
:07:40. > :07:46.him to show moral leadership on our behalf. A good man has been publicly
:07:47. > :07:50.destroyed by the media with the apparent support of Nick Clegg. I
:07:51. > :07:56.would like Nick Clegg to show leadership and say, this has got to
:07:57. > :08:03.stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on Monday morning he knew he was in
:08:04. > :08:09.trouble, staring down the barrel of a stand justify with Lord Rennard
:08:10. > :08:13.over allegations that the peer had inappropriately touched a number of
:08:14. > :08:19.women. Chris Rennard thought he was cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more I
:08:20. > :08:22.said if he doesn't apologise, he should withdraw from the House of
:08:23. > :08:31.Lords. If he does that today, what do you do then? I hope he doesn t. I
:08:32. > :08:35.think no apology, no whip. 2014 was starting badly for the Liberal
:08:36. > :08:39.Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to apologise, saying you can't say
:08:40. > :08:44.sorry for something you haven't done. The and he was leaning towards
:08:45. > :08:48.legal action. Butch us friends better defending Pym and publicly.
:08:49. > :08:52.This is a good, decent man, who has been punished by the party, with the
:08:53. > :08:57.leadership of the party that seems to be showing scant regard for due
:08:58. > :09:03.process. But his accusers felt very differently. It is untenable for the
:09:04. > :09:07.Lib Dems to have a credible voice on qualities and women's issues in the
:09:08. > :09:14.future if Lord Rennard was allowed to be back on the Lib Dem benches in
:09:15. > :09:18.the House of Lords. Therein lay the problem that exposed the weaknesses
:09:19. > :09:25.of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's internal structures have all the
:09:26. > :09:29.simplicity of a circuit diagram for a supercomputer, exposing the
:09:30. > :09:34.complexity of who runs the Liberal Democrats? The simple question that
:09:35. > :09:39.arose of that was can the leader of the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer?
:09:40. > :09:44.The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem whips in the Lords could do it but
:09:45. > :09:50.if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed, they could overrule it. Some
:09:51. > :09:54.long-stand ng friends of roar Rennard think he is either the
:09:55. > :09:57.innocent victim of a media witch-hunt or at the least due
:09:58. > :10:03.process has been ridden over rough shot by the leadership. Nobody ever
:10:04. > :10:06.did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't turn up to the Lords, will citing
:10:07. > :10:11.ill health. But issued a statement that ruled out an apology. He
:10:12. > :10:14.refused to do so and refused to comply with the outcome of that
:10:15. > :10:19.report, so there was no alternative but for the party to suspend his
:10:20. > :10:24.membership today. On Wednesday Nick Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a
:10:25. > :10:27.crunch decision, but to discuss the extraordinary prospect of legal
:10:28. > :10:30.action against the party by the man long credited with building its
:10:31. > :10:35.success. The situation was making the party look like a joke. One Tory
:10:36. > :10:38.MP said to one of my colleagues this morning, the funny thing about the
:10:39. > :10:42.Liberal Democrats, you managed to create a whole sex scandal without
:10:43. > :10:46.any sex. And we can laugh at ourselves but actually it is rather
:10:47. > :10:51.serious. And it got more serious, when an MP who had resigned the Lib
:10:52. > :10:56.Dem whip last year was expanded from the party over a report into
:10:57. > :11:00.allegations of serious and unwelcome sexual behaviour towards a
:11:01. > :11:05.constituent. All of this leaves the Lib Dems desperately wishing these
:11:06. > :11:11.sagas had been dealt with long ago and would now go away. Nick Clegg
:11:12. > :11:16.ended the week still party leader. Lord Rennard, once one of their most
:11:17. > :11:21.powerful players, ended the week, for now, no longer even in it.
:11:22. > :11:25.Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous week. Now, as you doubtless already
:11:26. > :11:32.know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will vote to choose a new deputy leader.
:11:33. > :11:36.You didn't know that? You do now. The job of Nick Clegg's number two
:11:37. > :11:39.is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem voice, untainted by the demands of
:11:40. > :11:42.coalition Government. At this point in the show we had expected to speak
:11:43. > :11:46.to all three candidates for the post, held in recent years by party
:11:47. > :11:53.veterans like Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a
:11:54. > :11:57.significant week for the party, they might have something to say. And
:11:58. > :12:03.here they are. Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all
:12:04. > :12:07.three are now unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the
:12:08. > :12:10.outsider. His office said he had a "family commitment". Gordon
:12:11. > :12:14.Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was booked to appear but then told us,
:12:15. > :12:17."I was at an event last night with Lorely Burt" - she's one of the
:12:18. > :12:23.candidates - "and she told me it was off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen
:12:24. > :12:26.by many as the red hot favourite, told us: "Because of the Rennard
:12:27. > :12:34.thing we don't want to put ourselves in a position where we have to
:12:35. > :12:42.answer difficult questions." How refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad
:12:43. > :12:46.politically is all this for the Lib Dems? What I think is the tragic
:12:47. > :12:51.irony of the Lib Dems is they've been revealed as being too
:12:52. > :12:54.democratic. In the same way that their party conference embarrassed
:12:55. > :12:59.Nick Clegg by voting sings that he signed up to, and now everything has
:13:00. > :13:06.to be run past various sub-committees first. Is it
:13:07. > :13:17.democratic or chaotic? It is Byzantine. Mike Hancock was
:13:18. > :13:23.voluntarily suspended, and this week he was properly suspended. It was
:13:24. > :13:30.new information into the public domain that forced that. I'm already
:13:31. > :13:34.hearing Labour and Conservative Party musing that if it is a long
:13:35. > :13:38.Parliament, we will form a minority Government. It is a disaster for
:13:39. > :13:42.them. Voters like parties that reflect and are interested this
:13:43. > :13:46.their concerns. Parties that are self obsessed turn them off. The
:13:47. > :13:50.third party, if they carry on like this, they'll be the fifth party in
:13:51. > :13:54.the European elections, so they have got to draw a line under this. They
:13:55. > :14:00.do that, if they do, through mediation. As I understand it, Chris
:14:01. > :14:03.Rennard,s who has go devoted his entire life to the Liberal
:14:04. > :14:07.Democrats, and previously the Liberal Party, is keen to draw a
:14:08. > :14:12.line under this. He is up for mediation but he needs to know that
:14:13. > :14:16.the women that he has clearly invaded their personal space, that
:14:17. > :14:18.there wouldn't be a possible legal a action from them. The it is very
:14:19. > :14:23.difficult to see how you could resolve that. Except he is
:14:24. > :14:28.threatening through his friends these famous friends, to spill all
:14:29. > :14:32.the beans about all the party's sex secrets. Isn't the danger for the
:14:33. > :14:35.Lib Dems, this haunts them through to the European elections, where
:14:36. > :14:39.they'll get thumped in the European elections? They'll get destroyed in
:14:40. > :14:43.the European elections, which keeps it salient as a story over the
:14:44. > :14:49.summer. And it has implications for Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a
:14:50. > :14:53.good job until now, perhaps better than David Cameron, of exercising
:14:54. > :14:56.authority over his party. He had a good conference in September.
:14:57. > :14:59.Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems have looked like a party without a
:15:00. > :15:04.leader or a leadership structure. Part of that is down to the chaotic
:15:05. > :15:09.or Byzantine organisational structure of the party. Part of it
:15:10. > :15:15.is Nick Clegg's failure to assert himself and impose himself over
:15:16. > :15:20.events. Is it Byzantine or Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You
:15:21. > :15:32.don't get these words on the Today programme. The cost of living has
:15:33. > :15:35.been back on the agenda this week as Labour and the Tories argue over
:15:36. > :15:38.whether the value of money in your pocket is going up or down. Well
:15:39. > :15:42.there's one cost which has been racing ahead of inflation and that's
:15:43. > :15:45.the amount you have to pay to travel by train, by bus and by air. Rail
:15:46. > :15:48.commuters have been hard hit over the last four years, with the cost
:15:49. > :15:54.of the average season ticket going up by 18% since January 2010, while
:15:55. > :16:00.wages have gone up by just 3.6% over the same period. It means some rail
:16:01. > :16:05.users are paying high prices with commuters from Kent shelling out
:16:06. > :16:09.more than ?5,000 per year from the beginning of this month just to get
:16:10. > :16:15.to work in London. It doesn't compare well with our European
:16:16. > :16:23.counterparts. In the UK the average rail user spends 14% of their
:16:24. > :16:28.average income on trains. It is just 1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like
:16:29. > :16:32.season tickets went up 3.1% at the beginning of this month, and with
:16:33. > :16:36.ministers keen to make passengers fought more of the bills, there are
:16:37. > :16:49.more fare rises coming down the track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins
:16:50. > :16:54.me now for the Sunday Interview Welcome. You claim to be in the
:16:55. > :16:59.party of hard-working people, so why is it that since you came to power
:17:00. > :17:06.rail commuters have seen the cost of their average season ticket going up
:17:07. > :17:13.in money terms by over 18% while their pay has gone up in money terms
:17:14. > :17:19.by less than four? I would point out that this is the first year in ten
:17:20. > :17:22.years that we have not had an above inflation increase on fares. The
:17:23. > :17:32.Government accepts we have got to do as much as we can to help the
:17:33. > :17:38.passengers. A big inflation increase since 2010. This is the first year
:17:39. > :17:44.in ten years that it has not been above RPI, but we are also investing
:17:45. > :17:47.huge amounts of money into the railways, building new trains for
:17:48. > :17:54.the East Coast Main Line and the great Western. We are spending 500
:17:55. > :18:00.million at Birmingham station, this is all increasing capacity, so we
:18:01. > :18:06.are seeing investments. Over the next five years Network Rail will
:18:07. > :18:14.invest over ?38 billion in the network structure. We also have an
:18:15. > :18:18.expensive railway and it is ordinary people paying for it. A season
:18:19. > :18:24.ticket from Woking in Surrey, commuter belt land in London, let's
:18:25. > :18:30.look at the figures. This is a distance of over 25 miles, it cost
:18:31. > :18:37.over ?3000 per year. We have picked similar distances to international
:18:38. > :18:52.cities. The British commuter is being ripped
:18:53. > :18:57.off. The British commuter is seeing record levels of investment in our
:18:58. > :19:01.railways. The investment has to be paid for. We are investing huge
:19:02. > :19:07.amounts of money and I don't know whether the figures you have got
:19:08. > :19:22.here... I'm sure they are likewise, as you have managed to do... White
:19:23. > :19:30.-- ten times more than the Italian equivalent. We have seen
:19:31. > :19:35.transformational changes in our railway services and we need to
:19:36. > :19:41.carry on investing. We were paying these prices even before you started
:19:42. > :19:50.investing. We have always paid a lot more to commute in this country than
:19:51. > :19:58.our European equivalents. I'm not quite sure I want to take on Italy
:19:59. > :20:04.is a great example. You would if you were a commuter. You
:20:05. > :20:06.is a great example. You would if you the other rates of taxation has to
:20:07. > :20:11.be paid as well. Isn't it the case they are making profits out of these
:20:12. > :20:18.figures and using them to subsidise cheaper fares back in their
:20:19. > :20:23.homeland? The overall profit margin train companies make is 3%, a
:20:24. > :20:26.reasonable amount, and we have seen a revolution as far as the railway
:20:27. > :20:31.industry is concerned. a revolution as far as the railway
:20:32. > :20:41.20 years we have seen passenger journeys going from 750 million to
:20:42. > :20:45.1.5 billion. That is a massive revolution in rail. Let me look
:20:46. > :20:46.1.5 billion. That is a massive spokesperson for the German
:20:47. > :20:59.government, the Ministry of transport.
:21:00. > :21:06.They are charging huge fares in Britain to take that money back to
:21:07. > :21:11.subsidise fares in Germany. What do you say to that? We are seeing
:21:12. > :21:17.British companies winning contracts in Germany. The National Express are
:21:18. > :21:21.winning contracts to the railways. What about the ordinary commuter?
:21:22. > :21:26.They are paying through the nose so German commuters can travel more
:21:27. > :21:31.cheaply. We are still subsidising the railways in this country, but
:21:32. > :21:37.overall we want to reduce the subsidy we are giving. We are still
:21:38. > :21:43.seeing growth in our railways and I want to see more people using them.
:21:44. > :21:49.Why do you increase rail fares at the higher RPI measure than the
:21:50. > :21:55.lower CPI measurement? That is what has always been done, and we have
:21:56. > :22:01.stopped. This is the first time in ten years that we have not raised
:22:02. > :22:09.the rail figures above RPI. You still link fares to RPI. You use the
:22:10. > :22:15.lower CPI figure when it suits you, to keep pension payments down for
:22:16. > :22:21.example, but the higher one when it comes to increasing rail fares. We
:22:22. > :22:24.are still putting a huge subsidy into the rail industry, there is
:22:25. > :22:30.still a huge amount of money going from the taxpayer to support the
:22:31. > :22:35.rail industry. I am not asking you about that, I am asking you why you
:22:36. > :22:45.link the figures to the higher RPI vesture Mark if we are going to pay
:22:46. > :22:48.for the levels of investment, so all the new trains being built at Newton
:22:49. > :22:53.Aycliffe for the East Coast Main Line and the great Western, ?3.
:22:54. > :22:58.billion of investment, new rolling stock coming online, then yes, we
:22:59. > :23:12.have to pay for it, and it is a question of the taxpayer paying for
:23:13. > :23:15.it all the -- or the passenger. You have capped parking fines until
:23:16. > :23:25.the next election, rail commuters we have seen the cost of their ticket
:23:26. > :23:31.has gone up by nearly 20%, you are the party of the drivers, not the
:23:32. > :23:46.passengers, aren't you? We are trying to help everybody who
:23:47. > :23:49.has been struggling. I think we are setting out long-term plans for our
:23:50. > :23:55.railways, investing heavily in them and it is getting that balance
:23:56. > :24:00.right. But you have done more for the driver than you have for the
:24:01. > :24:08.user of public transport. I don t accept that. They are paying the
:24:09. > :24:15.same petrol prices as 2011. This is the first time in ten years that
:24:16. > :24:23.there has not been an RPI plus rise. We are investing record
:24:24. > :24:28.amounts. Bus fares are also rising, 4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a
:24:29. > :24:33.time when real take-home pay has been falling. This hits commuters
:24:34. > :24:40.particularly workers who use buses on low incomes, another cost of
:24:41. > :24:44.living squeeze. I was with Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday,
:24:45. > :24:59.and I saw a bus company investing in new buses. Last week First ordered
:25:00. > :25:04.new buses. Part of your hard-working families you are always on about,
:25:05. > :25:10.they are the ones going to work early in the morning, and yet you
:25:11. > :25:15.are making them pay more for their buses in real terms than they did
:25:16. > :25:19.before. They would be happier if they could travel more cheaply. It
:25:20. > :25:29.is about getting investment in services, it has to be paid for Why
:25:30. > :25:34.not run the old buses for five more years? Because then there is more
:25:35. > :25:38.pollution in the atmosphere, modern buses have lower emissions, and we
:25:39. > :25:41.are still giving huge support overall to the bus industry and that
:25:42. > :25:47.is very important because I fully accept that the number of people,
:25:48. > :25:57.yes, use the train but a lot of people use buses as well. High-speed
:25:58. > :26:01.two, it has been delayed because 877 pages of key evidence from your
:26:02. > :26:07.department were left on a computer memory stick, part of the submission
:26:08. > :26:12.to environmental consultation. Your department's economic case is now
:26:13. > :26:19.widely regarded as a joke, now you do this. Is your department fit for
:26:20. > :26:24.purpose? Yes, and as far as what happened with the memory stick, it
:26:25. > :26:30.is an acceptable and shouldn't have happened, and therefore we have
:26:31. > :26:40.extended the time. There has been an extension in the time for people to
:26:41. > :26:44.make representation, the bill for this goes through Parliament in a
:26:45. > :26:58.different way to a normal bill. It is vital HS2 provides what we want.
:26:59. > :27:03.What I am very pleased about is when the paving bill was passed by
:27:04. > :27:08.Parliament just a few months ago, there was overwhelming support, and
:27:09. > :27:13.I kept reading there was going to be 70 people voting against it, in the
:27:14. > :27:18.end 30 people voted against it and there was a good majority in the
:27:19. > :27:23.House of Commons. So can you give a guarantee that this legislation will
:27:24. > :27:29.get onto the statute books? I will do all I can. I cannot tell you the
:27:30. > :27:37.exact Parliamentary time scale. The bill will have started its progress
:27:38. > :27:44.through the House of Commons by 2015, and it may well have
:27:45. > :27:48.concluded. The new chairman of HS2 said he can bring the cost of the
:27:49. > :27:58.line substantially under the budget, do you agree with that? The figure
:27:59. > :28:05.is ?42 billion with a large contingency, and David Higgins, as
:28:06. > :28:09.chairman of HS2, is looking at the whole cast and seeing if there are
:28:10. > :28:15.ways in which it can be built faster. At the moment across London
:28:16. > :28:19.we are building Crossrail, ?14. billion investment. There was a
:28:20. > :28:28.report last week saying what an excellent job has been done.
:28:29. > :28:36.Crossrail started under Labour. Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in
:28:37. > :28:41.the 1990 party conference. You may get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay
:28:42. > :28:48.people so much, why is the nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on
:28:49. > :28:55.?600,000? And the new chief executive on ?750,000. These are
:28:56. > :28:59.very big projects and we need to attract the best people become so we
:29:00. > :29:04.are going for the best engineers in the world to engineer this project.
:29:05. > :29:09.It is a large salary, there is no question about it, but I'm rather
:29:10. > :29:14.pleased that engineers rather than bankers can be seen to get big
:29:15. > :29:18.rewards for delivering what will be very important pieces of national
:29:19. > :29:24.infrastructure. I didn't have time to ask you about your passenger duty
:29:25. > :29:28.so perhaps another time. We are about to speak to Nigel Mills and
:29:29. > :29:32.all of these MPs on your side who are rebelling against the
:29:33. > :29:36.Government, how would you handle them? We have got to listen to what
:29:37. > :29:43.our colleagues are talking about and try to respond it. Would you take
:29:44. > :29:52.them for a long walk off a short pier? I'm sure I would have many
:29:53. > :30:01.conversations with them. An immigration bill to tack the
:30:02. > :30:07.immigration into the UK. When limits on migration from Bulgaria and
:30:08. > :30:11.Romania were lifted this year there were warnings of a large influx of
:30:12. > :30:16.migrant workerses from the two new European countries. So far it's been
:30:17. > :30:22.more of a dribble than a flood. Who can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz
:30:23. > :30:26.greeting a handful of arrivals at Luton Airport. But it is early days
:30:27. > :30:29.and it is one of the reasons the Government's introduced a new
:30:30. > :30:35.Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister is facing rebellion from
:30:36. > :30:40.backbenchers who want tougher action on immigration from abroad. Nigel
:30:41. > :30:52.Mills would reimpose restrictions on how many Romanians and Bulgarians
:30:53. > :30:55.can come here. Joining me is Nigel Mills, Conservative MP behind the
:30:56. > :31:03.amendment and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there
:31:04. > :31:08.hasn't been an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians. Why do you want to
:31:09. > :31:13.restore these, kick these transitional controls way forward to
:31:14. > :31:16.2019? I don't think any of us were expecting a rush on January 1st
:31:17. > :31:22.Andrew. I think we were talking about a range of 250,000 to 350 000
:31:23. > :31:27.people over five years. That's obviously a large amount of people,
:31:28. > :31:32.especially when you think net migration to the UK was well in
:31:33. > :31:37.excess of the Government's target of tens of thousands last year. The
:31:38. > :31:43.real concern is that it would be ever increasing our population,
:31:44. > :31:47.attracting lots of low-skilled, low-wage people, which keeps our
:31:48. > :31:52.people out of work and wages down. Did you accept that if you were to
:31:53. > :31:56.accept this, it would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome, the founding
:31:57. > :32:01.principle of the European Union We were trying to keep the restrictions
:32:02. > :32:04.that Bulgaria and Romania accepted for their first seven years of EU
:32:05. > :32:09.membership, on the basis that when we signed the treaty we weren't
:32:10. > :32:13.aware that we would have a huge and catastrophic recession we are still
:32:14. > :32:18.recovering from. But you would be in breach of the law, correct? The UK
:32:19. > :32:23.Parliament has a right to say we signed this deal before the terrible
:32:24. > :32:27.recession, and we need a bit longer in our national interest. It is
:32:28. > :32:35.worth noting that Bulgaria and Romania haven't met all their
:32:36. > :32:38.accession requirements. The Bulgarian requirement passed a
:32:39. > :32:43.law... So if they break the law it is alright for us to break the law?
:32:44. > :32:50.Is we should be focusing on trying to get 2. 4 million of our own in
:32:51. > :32:55.work, and 1 million people not in work... Let me bring in Diane
:32:56. > :33:00.Abbott. Will you vote for this amendment and why? It is in breach
:33:01. > :33:04.of the treaty. While I deplore MPs that try to cause trouble, these MPs
:33:05. > :33:08.have been particularly mindless because what they want to do
:33:09. > :33:14.wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say
:33:15. > :33:22.so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be
:33:23. > :33:25.going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.
:33:26. > :33:29.They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed
:33:30. > :33:35.to be debating before Christmas As we speak they've not cut a deal so
:33:36. > :33:41.it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I
:33:42. > :33:45.think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount
:33:46. > :33:50.of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to
:33:51. > :33:53.achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get
:33:54. > :33:57.free movement. I think the debate is moving in the right direction, but I
:33:58. > :34:01.think those people who are trapped out of work and desperately looking
:34:02. > :34:07.for work want something to be done now and not wait a few more years
:34:08. > :34:11.while we have more assessments Andrews. People are worried about
:34:12. > :34:16.the level of immigration. They I it is too high. That's the consensus in
:34:17. > :34:21.the country. We spoke to to migration centre in Hackney and they
:34:22. > :34:25.said they are struggling to cope with the number of people using
:34:26. > :34:30.their services. These are people with problems with the law. In the
:34:31. > :34:34.past years EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation than they
:34:35. > :34:39.take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement, which is agitating
:34:40. > :34:44.Nige em, that horse has bolted. We signed a treaty. There is nothing
:34:45. > :34:49.people like Nigel Mills can do, unless they want to rip their party
:34:50. > :34:54.apart, God forbid. Will you go as far as to rip your party apart,
:34:55. > :34:59.Nigel Mills? Are you going to take this all the way? Would you rather
:35:00. > :35:04.see this bill go down than your amendment not be accepted? This is a
:35:05. > :35:08.very important bill. I think we all want to see measures on the statute
:35:09. > :35:13.book, so the last thing we want to see is this bill go down. We do need
:35:14. > :35:17.to set out clearly that we have real concerns about the level of EU
:35:18. > :35:25.migration and something needs to be done. Would you rather have the bill
:35:26. > :35:30.without your amendment or no bill at all? I am hoping we can have the
:35:31. > :35:35.bill with the amendment. I know that, but if you can't? Is that will
:35:36. > :35:41.depend on what the Labour Party decide to do. They are talking
:35:42. > :35:45.tougher on immigration but will they take action on it? Your party has
:35:46. > :35:50.been talking tough on immigration but I will be surprised if an Ed
:35:51. > :35:54.Miliband Labour Party would vote for egg in direct cameravention of the
:35:55. > :36:01.Treaty of Rome. It would make no sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for
:36:02. > :36:06.the impossible. If I was a Tory I would be wringing high hands. He
:36:07. > :36:12.hasn't ruled out crashing the bill. That's incredible. Where will this
:36:13. > :36:17.end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a vote on Thursday. There's a lot of
:36:18. > :36:21.amendments people can use to show their concern about migration. We
:36:22. > :36:26.want limited and proportionate action, and that's what I am
:36:27. > :36:29.proposing. I want to see the bill on the statute book, I want the
:36:30. > :36:35.restrictions on people who shouldn't be here getting bank accounts and
:36:36. > :36:40.driving licences. I don't want to crash this bill but there's more
:36:41. > :36:47.measures we need in it. Nigel Mills thank you. You are going to be -
:36:48. > :36:53.popping up I think on the Sunday Politics East Midlands. Diane
:36:54. > :36:57.Abbott, thank you as well. We're in for more heavy rain and
:36:58. > :36:59.high winds across the UK today. You may remember that one UKIP
:37:00. > :37:02.councillor - he's since been suspended - caused controversy last
:37:03. > :37:04.weekend by blaming the recent flooding on the legalisation of gay
:37:05. > :37:08.marriage. Why didn't I think of that? So who better than this man to
:37:09. > :37:10.bring you the unofficial forecast. I'll be bringing you the late least
:37:11. > :37:20.UKIP weather from your area. You're watching Sunday Politics.
:37:21. > :37:22.Also coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be looking at the week
:37:23. > :37:37.ahead with our political panel. In the East Midlands: The
:37:38. > :37:41.council`funded centre that finds jobs for migrant workers. A waste of
:37:42. > :37:52.taxpayers' money or a vital service that's boosting our economy? This is
:37:53. > :37:56.what it is about. Great opportunities for people to get into
:37:57. > :37:58.employment and a job. And the threat to our ancient
:37:59. > :38:05.woodlands. Campaigners say dozens are at risk and want us to join the
:38:06. > :38:10.fight to save them. Tourists come to England from all over the world.
:38:11. > :38:13.They love the stories of Robin Hood. Hello, I'm Marie Ashby, and my
:38:14. > :38:16.guests today: The Amber Valley MP, Nigel Mills, and Labour's MP for
:38:17. > :38:19.Derby North, Chris Williamson. Welcome both. First, let's take a
:38:20. > :38:23.look at what feels like weekly reports of good news on the economy.
:38:24. > :38:26.This week, it was employment. The East Midlands has seen the biggest
:38:27. > :38:30.drop in unemployment in the country, down 22% over the last year, with
:38:31. > :38:41.our guests' home patches of Derby and Derbyshire doing particularly
:38:42. > :38:48.well. Unemployment rate of 78% in Amber Valley, but what kind of jobs?
:38:49. > :39:05.We are seeing great progress in the last year. Most of the jobs
:39:06. > :39:12.full`time once. Very good employers. There are some part`time jobs and
:39:13. > :39:20.there, but many people do want that. It's a good picture. Are you feeling
:39:21. > :39:28.the benefits and Derby North? We are seeing people's living standards
:39:29. > :39:33.under pressure. We also know that there has been a big increase in the
:39:34. > :39:37.number of part`time workers since the coalition government came to
:39:38. > :39:43.power in the East Midlands. But these figures look good. It's always
:39:44. > :39:47.welcome when people get work, but what kind of work are they getting?
:39:48. > :39:54.Are they able to improve their living standards? As a result of the
:39:55. > :39:59.policies that Nigel's party and the Liberal Democrats are putting
:40:00. > :40:07.through, people are put under pressure. You think we are
:40:08. > :40:12.performing more strongly here. Why do you think that is? The East
:40:13. > :40:13.Midlands 0 do you think that is? The East
:40:14. > :40:26.Midlands is a strong part of the region. We have got the
:40:27. > :40:30.manufacturing businesses here. When we think about people's living
:40:31. > :40:38.standards, we should also think that we have given them a sizeable tax
:40:39. > :40:44.cut. But surely as people find work, their living standards will rise? If
:40:45. > :40:48.they are unemployed, that should be the case, but the problem is people
:40:49. > :40:55.find themselves not that much better off when they find work. There has
:40:56. > :40:57.been an increase across the East Midlands in the number of people
:40:58. > :41:07.working part`time and a file in the number of full`time jobs. What
:41:08. > :41:15.sectors are growing currently? From my experience, we are seeing an
:41:16. > :41:20.increase in part`time work. It is probably, to some extent, in the
:41:21. > :41:26.retail sector. When we are definitely not seeing it was any
:41:27. > :41:28.increase in the public sector, which has seen a big shake`out in the
:41:29. > :41:32.number of jobs. 0 has seen a big shake`out in the
:41:33. > :41:35.number of jobs. People are losing well`paid jobs and finding
:41:36. > :41:42.themselves only able to get employment which pays less. Euro
:41:43. > :41:53.party predicted there was a loss of 1 million jobs but we have actually
:41:54. > :41:57.gained 1 million. `` your party. We have now got employment increasing
:41:58. > :42:00.wage is starting to rise. Well, alongside the economy and
:42:01. > :42:03.jobs, immigration is one of the most divisive issues in politics at the
:42:04. > :42:07.moment, and many say the two go hand`in`hand. So are migrant workers
:42:08. > :42:10.a boon to our economy or are there too many people here already,
:42:11. > :42:14.stretching our services to breaking point? Our reporter, Tim Parker, has
:42:15. > :42:17.been to an employment centre in Derby that's funded by council money
:42:18. > :42:28.and helps local people AND migrant workers to find jobs.
:42:29. > :42:34.This small busy centre finds itself on the front line of what is now the
:42:35. > :42:40.biggest debate British politics. The centre has helped migrants from many
:42:41. > :42:45.different places. The majority are from Eastern Europe and the
:42:46. > :42:49.Baltics. Our core purpose is to improve economic prosperity in the
:42:50. > :42:54.region. We work with young people, unemployed people, adults, women. We
:42:55. > :43:02.need to get them to do something better and give them aspiration.
:43:03. > :43:06.This is one of the quieter days. People queueing in there to get
:43:07. > :43:12.advice in here from staff and trained volunteers on how to get a
:43:13. > :43:19.job. This woman is from Lithuania. She first use the centre to help
:43:20. > :43:32.find work but now volunteers there. I am on a jobseeker's allowance. You
:43:33. > :43:39.can to volunteering jobs. It's an easy way to climb up, I think.
:43:40. > :43:47.Critics may question spending ?118,000 of money. The money is
:43:48. > :43:56.therefore disadvantaged, local people, and there are lots of other
:43:57. > :44:01.people who use our services. The council insists the money boost the
:44:02. > :44:05.local economy. In terms of the city, we are creating over 2500 jobs a
:44:06. > :44:21.year. People are accessing these jobs. This is what it is about:
:44:22. > :44:26.Creating opportunity for people. But whether it's value for money or
:44:27. > :44:29.not, with immigration so high up the political agenda, centres like this
:44:30. > :44:32.will continue to find themselves in the spotlight.
:44:33. > :44:40.Alan Graves, who's the East Midlands chair of UKIP, has joined us. A job
:44:41. > :44:44.centre funded by the council, finding work for Eastern European
:44:45. > :44:52.migrants must be UKIP's worst nightmare! Of course it is. We are
:44:53. > :45:01.talking about immigration which is the UKIP effect. These parties, nor
:45:02. > :45:09.trying to find the immigration affect... ?118,000 should not be
:45:10. > :45:18.spent on trying to find Eastern European 's jobs when we have 2.5
:45:19. > :45:27.million people unemployed. As a Derby MP, what do you make of all
:45:28. > :45:34.this? The funding for this project goes back to 2007. It came at a time
:45:35. > :45:43.when Alan was on the council, funnily enough. The important thing
:45:44. > :45:47.is this is not just about finding work for migrant workers. It's about
:45:48. > :45:54.finding employment opportunities for anybody out of work, and I think
:45:55. > :46:06.that is money well spent. This is money for the new communities. It is
:46:07. > :46:06.for Eastern European 's. The money is 0
:46:07. > :46:09.for Eastern European 's. The money is directly affecting them. They are
:46:10. > :46:18.the new communities in the Derby area. The council have just
:46:19. > :46:26.announced 350 job losses. Why do we spend that money on those 350 people
:46:27. > :46:35.that are being made redundant from the council? The key issue here is
:46:36. > :46:40.ensuring that exploitative employers don't use migrant labour to drive
:46:41. > :46:44.down the wage rates. We have heard horrendous stories about how migrant
:46:45. > :46:52.workers are being exploited and paid below the minimum wage. That is also
:46:53. > :46:56.the knock`on impact of wage rates and everyone else. That's what we
:46:57. > :47:04.should be tackling. You have been very active on this issue. What do
:47:05. > :47:12.you think about this? I would rather have people find work than live on
:47:13. > :47:19.benefits. And this centre is finding them jobs, so it's keeping them off
:47:20. > :47:32.benefits? Free movement within the EU, not to come and claim benefits.
:47:33. > :47:36.It would be interesting to see whether any of that happens. Is it a
:47:37. > :47:45.particular problem in the East Midlands? In parts of Lincolnshire,
:47:46. > :47:56.there have been larger issues. But we have 2.5 million unemployed young
:47:57. > :48:01.people. If the council wasn't going to have these people, where are they
:48:02. > :48:07.supposed to go to help? The real issue is we don't want mass
:48:08. > :48:11.immigration in this country. It is directly related to being a member
:48:12. > :48:16.of the EU. These two parties want to remain in the EU and so do the
:48:17. > :48:23.Liberal Democrats. UKIP are the only party with a solution. This centre
:48:24. > :48:29.have given us a breakdown of the people who use their services: 30%
:48:30. > :48:37.Asian, 30% Eastern European, 40% white British. They are helping lots
:48:38. > :48:50.of people, but do you think it is fair we spent ?118,000, not to the
:48:51. > :48:58.existing population? Are you worried about the threat of UKIP in Derby?
:48:59. > :49:06.Alan is plain to the lowest common denominator, trying to play on
:49:07. > :49:12.people's there. `` is playing. We benefited from immigration down the
:49:13. > :49:17.ages. What are people saying to you on the doorstep? People are
:49:18. > :49:22.concerned about the cost of living and whether they will be able to
:49:23. > :49:28.keep a roof over their heads and whether they will have a job at the
:49:29. > :49:39.end of the year. Mass immigration affects everything. Ed Miliband has
:49:40. > :49:44.called for a closing of the loophole that allows a employment agencies to
:49:45. > :49:52.exploit these migrant workers, and other workers, to paid below the
:49:53. > :49:58.going rate. Would you support that? I don't support any exploitation.
:49:59. > :50:08.Would you support closing that loophole, then? You have employment
:50:09. > :50:14.agencies exploiting workers and forcing them to work for less than
:50:15. > :50:21.the going rate. What seats to you propose to win here? The European
:50:22. > :50:26.elections are next. We have five candidates. We will win at least
:50:27. > :50:33.two, and possibly three. What target seats? Amber Valley is a very
:50:34. > :50:51.interesting area. Are you worried about that, Nigel? I have been very
:50:52. > :51:04.strong in these issues. My constituents are concerned about it.
:51:05. > :51:10.The economy was growing when the Tories came to power. As a
:51:11. > :51:19.consequence of the austerity measures the coalition is
:51:20. > :51:24.pursuing... Your party triggered the worst recession since the war!
:51:25. > :51:29.Personal insults are not what people want to hear about. They want to
:51:30. > :51:31.hear about the real issues, like mass immigration.
:51:32. > :51:34.A national campaign's been launched in the East Midlands to save
:51:35. > :51:37.Britain's ancient Woodlands. The Grantham`based Woodland Trust says
:51:38. > :51:40.almost 30 woods in our region are under threat from developers. It
:51:41. > :51:43.comes as the government considers a move to relax rules to allow
:51:44. > :51:48.builders to remove ancient trees if they plant new trees elsewhere. Des
:51:49. > :51:58.Coleman's been down to the woods to find out more.
:51:59. > :52:02.This place has not been touched for over 1000 years and it is reckoned
:52:03. > :52:05.one third of our forests are ancient woodlands. But campaigners now said
:52:06. > :52:21.they are under threat from developers and government agencies.
:52:22. > :52:30.You are head of conservation. What is it you want from people? At the
:52:31. > :52:35.Woodland Trust, we are passionate about ancient woodland and native
:52:36. > :52:39.trees. Our ancient woodlands are not protected. People seem to think that
:52:40. > :52:48.because they are special, they get automatic protection from planning,
:52:49. > :52:53.but that's not the case. What are your concerns? At the moment, the
:52:54. > :52:57.government have been talking about biodiversity offsetting, which
:52:58. > :53:01.allows developers and projects to think about creating new areas of
:53:02. > :53:05.habitat to make up for those that may be lost or damaged. We have
:53:06. > :53:10.always said that ancient woodland is our most precious resource and it
:53:11. > :53:14.cannot be replaced, so we don't think we can apply that approach to
:53:15. > :53:21.ancient trees and woods. They take so long to develop. Like here, with
:53:22. > :53:25.his beautiful oak trees, and the soil and wildlife, it has taken
:53:26. > :53:29.decades to develop. You can't replace it with a few new trees. We
:53:30. > :53:37.want people to join us in adding their voice. People can get onto the
:53:38. > :53:38.Woodland Trust website, look at our campaign and add their name on the
:53:39. > :53:55.list. Fair enough. In the depths of
:53:56. > :53:59.winter, this place is fairly bare. But in the summer, it will be full
:54:00. > :54:03.of leaves and lots of colour, as has been for hundreds of years, and
:54:04. > :54:12.campaigners hope that it will continue by hundreds of years into
:54:13. > :54:18.the future. Do you worry about the future of our
:54:19. > :54:21.ancient woodland? Are ancient woodlands are an incredibly
:54:22. > :54:30.important asset, but the government's planning policy is
:54:31. > :54:38.innate complete mess. `` is in a. But we need housing. There is a
:54:39. > :54:43.housing crisis in our country. Developers who are land banking must
:54:44. > :54:49.either use it or lose it. That way, we hope it will bring more
:54:50. > :54:55.development land into use, and it is important to visit the Brownfield
:54:56. > :55:07.policy as well. Nobody wants to see us lose our ancient woodland. If you
:55:08. > :55:15.have two derive a new railway... We need to protect those woodlands.
:55:16. > :55:23.What would you do? Development should be the last resort. It should
:55:24. > :55:25.be there is no other alternative. A lot of people would think these
:55:26. > :55:37.ancient woodlands are already protected. They have been under
:55:38. > :55:43.tremendous pressure. Moore does need to be done to protect this essential
:55:44. > :55:48.asset for the future generations. When developers cut down 10,000
:55:49. > :55:54.trees to make way for the M6 toll road, they did plant trees behind
:55:55. > :56:03.them. We need to distinguish between ancient another woodlands. `` and
:56:04. > :56:08.other woodlands. One of the things the government could do is exempt
:56:09. > :56:12.ancient woodland from the offsetting proposals they are talking about.
:56:13. > :56:12.Would you back the campaign to protect 0
:56:13. > :56:17.Would you back the campaign to protect these woodlands further?
:56:18. > :56:40.Yes, no one wants to see ancient woodland lost. An acid for the East
:56:41. > :56:43.Midlands. The Woodland Trust reckons up to 300 across the country are
:56:44. > :56:43.under threat. Once they are gone, they 0
:56:44. > :56:48.under threat. Once they are gone, they are gone. That's right, and
:56:49. > :56:53.that's why I think the government needs to look at this very
:56:54. > :56:58.carefully. The minimum ship `` the minimum step should be exempting
:56:59. > :57:05.woodlands from the offsetting proposition. Brownfield first,
:57:06. > :57:16.ensuring the land developers are hoarding inland backs are brought to
:57:17. > :57:26.the table. `` are hoarding in land banks. We put pressure on the
:57:27. > :57:39.developers? I have the same problem in my seat. We share the same
:57:40. > :57:46.housing area. I have got Brownfield sites which need to come back to
:57:47. > :57:52.life. That has to be the right way. We need housing.
:57:53. > :57:55.Now with our regular round`up of other stories in the East Midlands.
:57:56. > :58:04.Here's our political editor, John Hess, with 60 Seconds.
:58:05. > :58:12.The Liberal Democrats say they will fight any plans to go ahead with
:58:13. > :58:17.tracking. The former leader of Leicestershire
:58:18. > :58:26.county council has hinted he still has political ambitions. He left the
:58:27. > :58:32.Tories and is now an independent. I have been exonerated by the police
:58:33. > :58:33.but I have cooperated with them. It is not something I would 0
:58:34. > :58:36.but I have cooperated with them. It is not something I would like to go
:58:37. > :58:44.through again, but nevertheless, I am out on the other side and I am
:58:45. > :58:52.perfectly happy to take a wider role in politics.
:58:53. > :58:54.The campaigning Notts youngster who died from a brain tumour has been
:58:55. > :59:07.praised. We had the privilege of meeting Sam
:59:08. > :59:10.White and his family last year. He was a remarkable young man and our
:59:11. > :59:14.thoughts are with his family. And his mum, Pam, has told us she's
:59:15. > :59:22.delighted with the way the campaign's going and it could have a
:59:23. > :59:27.big impact for lots of people. Are you all right? Do you need a glass
:59:28. > :59:36.of water? What is on your agenda this week? I have got an important
:59:37. > :59:46.public meeting on Thursday. It closed due to asbestos. We also have
:59:47. > :59:57.the immigration bill back in Parliament. What about you, Chris?
:59:58. > :00:04.Over the weekend, I shall be knocking on a few doors and
:00:05. > :00:08.hopefully be meeting residents ahead of the upcoming council elections. I
:00:09. > :00:11.am also meeting firefighters in the week to look at the future of the
:00:12. > :00:15.Fire and rescue service and talk about the attacks they are coming
:00:16. > :00:18.under. That's the Sunday Politics in the
:00:19. > :00:21.East Midlands. Thanks to our guests, Nigel Mills and Chris Williamson.
:00:22. > :00:24.Next week, MPs Andrew Bridgen and Jon Ashworth will be here and we'll
:00:25. > :00:26.be discussing how politicians can encourage young people to vote. See
:00:27. > :00:41.you then. Now back to Andrew Neil. constituency, very pleased. Andrew,
:00:42. > :00:44.back to you. UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never
:00:45. > :00:48.far away from controversy, but this week he's been outdoing himself He
:00:49. > :00:50.was hit over the head with a placard by a protester in Kent, provoked
:00:51. > :00:54.outrage by saying women with children are worth less to city
:00:55. > :01:01.firms, and said the ban on owning handguns was 'crackers'. He also
:01:02. > :01:05.seemed less than sure of his party's own policies when I interviewed him
:01:06. > :01:08.on the Daily Politics. And the story that got everyone talking was the
:01:09. > :01:13.suggestion by a UKIP councillor that flooding is linked to gay marriage.
:01:14. > :01:20.We'll talk about all of that in a moment, but first, over to Nigel
:01:21. > :01:24.with the weather. Weather for all areas of the British Isles but
:01:25. > :01:30.definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land." You may have heard about a storm in
:01:31. > :01:36.a tea cup developed when you kip councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the
:01:37. > :01:41.floods on the gay marriage Bill The old party is focusing on the view of
:01:42. > :01:48.UKIP members like him, even though he had said a sell yuj of things
:01:49. > :01:55.before when a Tory councillor. How quickly things change depending on
:01:56. > :02:03.when the blouse. There are occasional barmy views by people of
:02:04. > :02:06.all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour councillor claimed of fathered a
:02:07. > :02:18.child with an extra terrorist ral, and said his real mother was a
:02:19. > :02:24.foot green alien. And in Wales a councillor
:02:25. > :02:32.thinking about heading off for the slopes, there were flurries of
:02:33. > :02:37.embarrassment for the Tories after Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing
:02:38. > :02:44.party in a resort. Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps
:02:45. > :02:48.on the gravy train, watch out for hot air.
:02:49. > :02:56.In Britain temperatures are rising ahead of the European elections in
:02:57. > :03:00.May. It could get stormy, so advise light aircraft. Watch out for
:03:01. > :03:05.outbreaks of common sense, and no chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back
:03:06. > :03:10.to you, Andrew, with the rest of the Sunday Politics.
:03:11. > :03:15.Nick, if it was any other party that had bon through the past week it
:03:16. > :03:20.would be in meltdown. And maybe it is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't.
:03:21. > :03:26.What do you think? That just shows, that great weather forecast, Prince
:03:27. > :03:31.Charles now has a rival to be an excellent weather forecaster, as
:03:32. > :03:36.does the Duchess of Cornwall. It shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr
:03:37. > :03:40.candidate to the European elections. Our invitation to the British people
:03:41. > :03:44.to kick the establishment. The establishment have spent five years
:03:45. > :03:48.that the European Parliament is a waste of time, so who are you going
:03:49. > :03:55.to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of person. What was important about
:03:56. > :03:58.your eadviceration of Nigel Farage on Daily Politics is that when it
:03:59. > :04:02.came to the substance, they flounder. But the point about that
:04:03. > :04:07.party is they may have the thinnest set of policies, but people know
:04:08. > :04:15.what they stand for more than any other parties - get out of Europe, a
:04:16. > :04:20.grammar school in every town. If any other leading politician called for
:04:21. > :04:23.an end to the ban on handguns, at a time when we've seen these appalling
:04:24. > :04:28.gun deaths in the United States now almost one every week in some
:04:29. > :04:38.terrible siege in a school. It would be a crisis. It seems to wash off
:04:39. > :04:42.him. He's got congenital foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into
:04:43. > :04:48.another wild nothing to do with why people might vote UKIP. I don't
:04:49. > :04:53.think people are desperate to have handgun licences back in this
:04:54. > :04:59.country. It is such an unusual phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a
:05:00. > :05:04.Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying it, we've seen the damage done to
:05:05. > :05:09.the Lib Dems on a much more serious manner, we would say this is
:05:10. > :05:14.terminal. But maybe it adds to this image that we are not like the other
:05:15. > :05:20.parties. I think that is it. We keep waiting for these scandals and
:05:21. > :05:26.embarrassments to do damage to UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not
:05:27. > :05:30.working. It is ultimately because if you are an antiestablishment party,
:05:31. > :05:35.if you are an anti-system party the rules of the game which apply to the
:05:36. > :05:41.establishment parties don't apply to you. And the more ramshackle and
:05:42. > :05:47.embarrassing you are, the more authentic you seem. It what be take
:05:48. > :05:52.something for them not to finish second in May. Do they spend the
:05:53. > :05:56.following 12 months sinking in the poll snoos And George Osborne's
:05:57. > :05:59.strategy is fame everything as Labour versus the Conservatives The
:06:00. > :06:05.electorate will have their fun in May. Maybe the Tories will be beat
:06:06. > :06:10.into third place but in thejection is that -- but in the general
:06:11. > :06:18.election it is Labour versus the Tories. The Conservative Party will
:06:19. > :06:23.run around, 46 letters to Graham Brady, a leadership contest. That
:06:24. > :06:27.sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules well in the European elections,
:06:28. > :06:34.could cause big trouble for Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it?
:06:35. > :06:38.The big point about this, David Cameron said this is not a political
:06:39. > :06:44.party but a pressure group. This is the way to look at UKIP, and the way
:06:45. > :06:50.it is used by people in the right of the party, who say we have to do
:06:51. > :06:57.this. I like the policy of painting the trains in their old liveries. It
:06:58. > :07:08.would be like my old train set. I like the bigger passports.
:07:09. > :07:16.Pre-GNER... And London and Midland. I used to be a train spotter.
:07:17. > :07:22.Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the phone. Good to know you are watching
:07:23. > :07:26.but pity you are not here. He wanted to clarify he had constituency
:07:27. > :07:31.commitments to prevent him coming on the show to talk about becoming
:07:32. > :07:34.leader of the party, but he didn't dispute anything we said on the
:07:35. > :07:37.show. Yesterday, Ed Balls said that
:07:38. > :07:40.housing investment will be a central priority for the next Labour
:07:41. > :07:43.Government. It's a big issue, as the lack of new homes pushes up the the
:07:44. > :07:46.price of owning or renting. Well, tomorrow the Tories will announce
:07:47. > :07:53.what they say is the most ambitious programme of affordable
:07:54. > :07:56.housebuilding for 20 years. The Government sees housing as a really
:07:57. > :08:04.important part of the economy. That's why we are announcing a 23
:08:05. > :08:08.billion package for 165,000 new affordable homes. So individual
:08:09. > :08:12.builders, councils, housing associations can bid for that money.
:08:13. > :08:17.Phase one, which we are halfway through at the moment, we've built
:08:18. > :08:25.170,000 houses. 99,000 already coming out of the ground, so we ve
:08:26. > :08:30.made real progress on that. So, 165,000 new, affordable homes. It is
:08:31. > :08:34.a lot. Let me add three more words. Over three years. It is not such a
:08:35. > :08:38.lot. It is not, and Labour's commitment is 200,000 homes a year
:08:39. > :08:43.and even that isn't enough. The problem here is that the vest
:08:44. > :08:47.interest is with people who already have homes. They have a vote in the
:08:48. > :08:52.system through the planning regulations. In London there is a
:08:53. > :08:56.gap in the hedge through Richmond Park through which you should be
:08:57. > :09:00.able to see St Paul's Cathedral That's why you cannot build homes
:09:01. > :09:08.where you want them. I don't think we want to build homes over Richmond
:09:09. > :09:13.Park. He wasn't saying that. That's dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine.
:09:14. > :09:17.You've got to deal with supply, which is why Labour is talking about
:09:18. > :09:24.200,000 a year, and what George Osborne has done with supply is
:09:25. > :09:27.helping with demand. We know the Help to Buy Scheme is pretty
:09:28. > :09:34.dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen to put the break on that. If you are
:09:35. > :09:39.to deal with supply, you have to do radical things. Chris Huhne talked
:09:40. > :09:43.about on brownfield sites you can tax people who are holding the land
:09:44. > :09:47.as if the development has taken place. Then if you are really going
:09:48. > :09:51.to deal with it you have to talk about the greenfield sites, and you
:09:52. > :09:56.have to deal with the garden cities argument, which is too much for the
:09:57. > :09:59.Tories. All the parties seem to agree building new houses is a
:10:00. > :10:04.political winner. I hope that they are right. I'm not sure they are.
:10:05. > :10:08.The housing market is the example of what economists call the insider
:10:09. > :10:14.in-outsider problem. People who are already homeowners have no rational
:10:15. > :10:19.incentive to vote for more housing stock. Even if you leave aside the
:10:20. > :10:23.Conservative arable objections, if you are a homeowner there is an
:10:24. > :10:27.interest to stick with the planning promise that we have. So then we are
:10:28. > :10:31.stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not only are we growing at
:10:32. > :10:37.the moment but our population is growing. I've seen projects that in
:10:38. > :10:40.quite quickly we will overtake Germany and become the largest
:10:41. > :10:45.populated country in Europe. If that's the case we've got to build
:10:46. > :10:50.homes. We have. If you look at Tower Hamlets in London, the population is
:10:51. > :10:55.r ging higher than the number of dwelling. Classically the theory's
:10:56. > :11:01.been young people are most affected by this and they don't vote much.
:11:02. > :11:07.But when their parents have young Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's
:11:08. > :11:11.an electoral issue. That's why the garden cities project is
:11:12. > :11:16.interesting, because they finance themselves. You zone it for
:11:17. > :11:21.development, it is worth ?2 million an acre and then you can build on
:11:22. > :11:26.it. But who is going to want the greenfield sites gone. And how
:11:27. > :11:31.quickly can we build garden cities today? Some were started before the
:11:32. > :11:36.Town and Country Planning Act. I've read stats about the way Chinese and
:11:37. > :11:41.Japanese are building houses and they were slower than that. Here's a
:11:42. > :11:45.thought, sticking on the housing theme. Ed Miliband came up with the
:11:46. > :11:51.energy freeze, a populist interventionist move. Then the use
:11:52. > :11:55.it or lose it to land developers. Then breaking up the banks. Now the
:11:56. > :12:00.50p tax rate. How much would you put on Labour coming up for rent
:12:01. > :12:05.controls? That's already a big split. They are split already on it.
:12:06. > :12:10.They have. In London it is a popular policy. It might not play well in
:12:11. > :12:13.the rest of the country. I would say 50-50 on that. I think Labour
:12:14. > :12:17.supporting rent controls like the Tories having a go at welfare. The
:12:18. > :12:21.policy may be individually popular but it sends an impression about the
:12:22. > :12:26.party which might be less attract active. It confirms underlying
:12:27. > :12:30.suspicions that vote these guys into power and suddenly they are
:12:31. > :12:35.tampering with the private economy. The memories of the '70s when
:12:36. > :12:38.Governments tried and failed to do that. It is riskier than a
:12:39. > :12:43.superficial reading of the polls would suggest. One to watch? I think
:12:44. > :12:48.they are looking at it. That was the key message of the Ed Balls speech
:12:49. > :12:53.on housing, is looking at supply and how you get to that 200,000 figure a
:12:54. > :12:57.year, which is substantially more than what Kris Hopkins is talking
:12:58. > :13:02.about. What we didn't get to talk about, remember we had Michael
:13:03. > :13:06.Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of Schools. We all consumed was Mr
:13:07. > :13:09.Gove's man, the Education Secretary's man. Now according to
:13:10. > :13:14.the Sunday Times he is spitting blood about the way Mr Gove and his
:13:15. > :13:18.office are speaking about him behind the scenes. We've checked the quotes
:13:19. > :13:22.and he stands by them, so I think we'll have to have the head of
:13:23. > :13:26.Ofsted back on the programme. If you are watching, we're here. All that
:13:27. > :13:30.to the Lib Dems who didn't come on today.
:13:31. > :13:33.That's all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is
:13:34. > :13:36.back on Monday at midday on BBC Two, and I'll be here again next week.
:13:37. > :14:14.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:15. > :14:23.Britain, with 120,000 soldiers is now at war with Germany
:14:24. > :14:30.This would be the first truly modern war.
:14:31. > :14:36.and resolve of entire populations against each other.
:14:37. > :14:40.A war that would turn the country upside down.