:00:37. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The unions helped
:00:43. > :00:46.him beat his brother to the top. Now Ed Miliband wants to change Labour's
:00:47. > :00:50.relationship with them. Who will come out on top? We will be asking
:00:51. > :00:52.one union baron what he thinks. Cracks in the coalition after
:00:53. > :00:57.Education Secretary Michael Gove sacks the chairwoman of Ofsted. His
:00:58. > :01:00.Lib Dem deputy is said to be hopping mad. We will be talking to the new
:01:01. > :01:04.deputy leader of the Lib Dems, Malcolm Bruce.
:01:05. > :01:06.Caught a bout of the EU blues? David Cameron has been drowning his
:01:07. > :01:10.sorrows with the President of France. Who better? We will be
:01:11. > :01:13.asking if the EU referendum bill is dead in the water.
:01:14. > :01:17.And bad weather getting you down? Getting from A to B a bit of a
:01:18. > :01:19.nightmare? Fear not! The leader of the Greens will be here with her
:01:20. > :01:47.traffic and travel report. Dutch reassurance people want?
:01:48. > :01:51.Yes, all that and more in today s action-packed Sunday Politics. And
:01:52. > :01:57.blowing more hot air than I have had hot dinners, Helen Lewis, Nick Watt
:01:58. > :01:59.and Iain Martin. After the row about candidate
:02:00. > :02:02.selection in Falkirk, Ed Miliband said he wanted to reshape the
:02:03. > :02:06.relationship between Labour and the unions. The biggest changes involve
:02:07. > :02:11.union membership of the party, which in turn will affect future Labour
:02:12. > :02:16.leadership elections. Some claim this is Ed's Clause 4 moment. But
:02:17. > :02:19.the unions will continue to be powerful at conference and on the
:02:20. > :02:23.party's ruling committees, and they will still be able to bankroll the
:02:24. > :02:33.election campaign. Here is Labour's deputy leader, Harriet Harman,
:02:34. > :02:36.speaking earlier. What he is proposing for the March the 1st
:02:37. > :02:40.conference is a huge change in financing, in the election of the
:02:41. > :02:45.leader, in what goes on at local level. In due course, it might have
:02:46. > :02:49.implications for the NEC elections and conference. But this is already
:02:50. > :02:52.a big issue to take forward. Joining me now is Paul Kenny,
:02:53. > :03:02.general secretary of the GMB union and chair of the Trade Union and
:03:03. > :03:08.Labour Party Liaison Organisation. Is this Ed Miliband's Clause 4
:03:09. > :03:13.moment? I don't know about that It is certainly a bold move,
:03:14. > :03:18.particularly to have an electoral college, which as you said was the
:03:19. > :03:23.system which elected him in the first place. Everybody admits that
:03:24. > :03:28.has needed reforming for some time. Moving to a one member, one vote
:03:29. > :03:36.situation seems to me to be sensible. I know some people are
:03:37. > :03:41.upset, mostly MPs, who will lose their golden share. But it is
:03:42. > :03:49.nonsense that one MP should have the same vote as 1000 party members So
:03:50. > :04:00.the MPs have lost out. Have the unions lost out? Well, the system is
:04:01. > :04:04.currently that union members get a ballot paper, but they have to
:04:05. > :04:09.declare that they are a Labour supporter and they have to sign to
:04:10. > :04:15.that effect in order to participate. Then their vote is counted. At the
:04:16. > :04:19.last election, about 200,000 trade union members gave that indication,
:04:20. > :04:26.and they participated in that way. That will not change. The way it is
:04:27. > :04:31.organised will be different. The big change in the electoral college is
:04:32. > :04:38.that the logical weight given to MPs will disappear. I wonder if you have
:04:39. > :04:41.really lost anything. At the moment, there are about 3 million people
:04:42. > :04:47.automatically affiliated from the unions to the Labour Party. If only
:04:48. > :04:53.10% of them opt in, that will still mean twice as many union individual
:04:54. > :05:00.members, 300,000, versus about 180,000 Labour Party members. So
:05:01. > :05:04.union members and maybe even the unions will have as big an influence
:05:05. > :05:10.on the leadership elections as you do now, maybe bigger? Well, they are
:05:11. > :05:15.individual votes. Different unions support different candidates. It is
:05:16. > :05:21.lost in the media myth of barons and block votes, but there is an
:05:22. > :05:25.individual vote. Different unions recommend different candidates, and
:05:26. > :05:30.union members vote accordingly. Ed Miliband won more individual votes
:05:31. > :05:37.by a country mile than David, but it got messed up in the process of this
:05:38. > :05:41.electoral college. As I have understood the proposals so far
:05:42. > :05:49.they are not a done deal. There is a lot of discussion. But it seems
:05:50. > :05:52.there are three hurdles. Firstly, union members themselves will have
:05:53. > :05:56.to agree whether they want to affiliate to the Labour Party. If
:05:57. > :06:02.they don't, the rest of it falls. If they decide they do my they will ask
:06:03. > :06:06.union members to support that an individual basis the next five
:06:07. > :06:11.years, which will have financial implications. Then there will be a
:06:12. > :06:15.third position, which is that people who may want to agree with the
:06:16. > :06:19.union's position and affiliate with the Labour Party may want to go
:06:20. > :06:23.further and become active supporters of the Labour Party, participating
:06:24. > :06:28.in leadership elections. They will have to give their sanction to that
:06:29. > :06:31.at a third stage. So the implications in terms of
:06:32. > :06:38.constituency parties and so on are a lot less than the idea that the 3
:06:39. > :06:42.million who are currently affiliated will change. At the moment, the
:06:43. > :06:49.unions, because of the automatic affiliation, hand over a affiliation
:06:50. > :06:52.fees of about ?8 million a year to Labour. You will now get to keep
:06:53. > :07:00.that money, because the individuals will have to put up the money
:07:01. > :07:03.themselves. You can keep that money and determine if you give it to
:07:04. > :07:08.Labour to fight the election campaign, correct? Incorrect.
:07:09. > :07:12.Firstly, the affiliation fees are paid from what is called the
:07:13. > :07:17.political fund, which most unions have to set up in order to
:07:18. > :07:23.participate. The union will continue to pay the ?3 a affiliation fee for
:07:24. > :07:32.those members who want the union to be affiliated. But you get to keep a
:07:33. > :07:37.lot more money. In reality, we will see a transitional period of a few
:07:38. > :07:44.years. Less people will probably say yes, depending on how popular Labour
:07:45. > :07:48.are, about whether they want the union to give money to the Labour
:07:49. > :08:03.Party. The GMB has already done this. By the way, don't call me
:08:04. > :08:06.kneel. It is Andrew or Mr Neil. The unions will have a bigger chunk of
:08:07. > :08:10.money because the unions will not be handing over all of the money at one
:08:11. > :08:14.time. But you could still play a major part in funding the Labour
:08:15. > :08:20.election campaign. We'll how much you give the dependent on what the
:08:21. > :08:28.Labour Party puts in its manifesto? Of course it will. It will have to
:08:29. > :08:33.justify our support to Labour for the members who provide money to the
:08:34. > :08:37.political fund. If we did not argue for the cert is social justice
:08:38. > :08:41.campaigns and laws we want to see, we would be failing in our job. I
:08:42. > :08:45.don't intend to hide that from anybody. The unions are there to
:08:46. > :08:52.fight for their members. That is our job. So you will still be a major
:08:53. > :08:56.part of the bankroll of the Labour campaign. You will still have 5 % of
:08:57. > :09:00.the votes at a Labour conference, and you will still have a major part
:09:01. > :09:04.in the Labour National executive committee and the policy committee.
:09:05. > :09:14.It is right to say the unions are still at the heart of Labour, are
:09:15. > :09:16.they not? Well, if you sick to break the affiliated link between trade
:09:17. > :09:22.unions and the Labour Party, the whole thing collapses. That is what
:09:23. > :09:26.anchors the Labour Party as far as we are concerned. Many of our
:09:27. > :09:30.members think that when they want to look for ferrochrome and rights
:09:31. > :09:33.social justice, housing and the health service, Labour are better it
:09:34. > :09:38.quipped to deliver that for working people than the current parties
:09:39. > :09:43.That is why we have traditionally supported them. But not at all of
:09:44. > :09:49.our members support Labour, which is why we don't affiliate all of them
:09:50. > :09:53.to Labour. There are over 30 million people in the British labour force
:09:54. > :10:04.now. Union membership is only 6 5 million out of that 30. A 6.5% of
:10:05. > :10:10.that do not vote Labour, they vote Tory or liberal or nationalist in
:10:11. > :10:17.Scotland. So you are a relatively small pressure group. Why should
:10:18. > :10:21.Labour be in thrall to you? We are the biggest voluntary organisation
:10:22. > :10:27.in this country. Sorry about that, but that is the fact. People make
:10:28. > :10:30.conscious choices. My own union the GMB, has been growing for eight
:10:31. > :10:36.years. So this dying picture you are trying to paint... In terms of
:10:37. > :10:39.accounting for the fact that some do not support Labour, that is why
:10:40. > :10:48.unions do not affiliate all of their members to the Labour Party. We have
:10:49. > :10:52.adjusted to that. If you don't like being called Neil, I don't like
:10:53. > :11:00.being called a barren either. What about Mr Baron? I don't like that
:11:01. > :11:02.either. We are representatives of working organisations. It may be
:11:03. > :11:07.inconvenient for politicians to have to listen to working people, but we
:11:08. > :11:15.will continue to press. Lord Baron, thank you very much.
:11:16. > :11:19.So, is this a Clause 4 moment for Ed Miliband? Not really, but to his
:11:20. > :11:22.credit, he is going ahead with this. There was a point at which it looked
:11:23. > :11:27.as though Ed Miliband would back away from reform. To his credit he
:11:28. > :11:33.is trying to create a mass membership party again. But when it
:11:34. > :11:35.comes to the crucial business of funding a general election campaign,
:11:36. > :11:42.these reforms will make Labour more reliant on large donations from
:11:43. > :11:46.trade unions. They could have more power now, because they get to hold
:11:47. > :11:52.back this money, whereas beforehand, they had to hand it over
:11:53. > :11:59.automatically. As Mr Kenny just said, how much they handover will be
:12:00. > :12:03.dependent on good behaviour. Yes, but these are pragmatic reforms The
:12:04. > :12:06.fact that Ed Miliband has a lot of capital in not being seen as a
:12:07. > :12:10.Blairite has helped him get these through . The response has been
:12:11. > :12:15.muted, which suggests good party management on his behalf. That may
:12:16. > :12:18.be because they will still have 50% of the votes at a party conference.
:12:19. > :12:22.Mr Kenny was clear that that could be deal-breaker if they tried to
:12:23. > :12:28.take that away. They have more places at the NEC than anyone else,
:12:29. > :12:33.and party members, if only 10% of them signed up, they will outweigh
:12:34. > :12:38.individual members in the constituencies. It was interesting,
:12:39. > :12:41.how relaxed Paul Kenny was. He was taking thousands of pounds from the
:12:42. > :12:44.Labour Party a few months ago because he was annoyed about these
:12:45. > :12:49.reforms, and now he is relaxed because they still have 50% of the
:12:50. > :12:52.vote at Labour Party conference and Labour Party Parliamentary
:12:53. > :12:56.candidates are still selected in the same way. But there is a simple
:12:57. > :13:00.point here. Yes, you can pick apart what Ed Miliband said and said the
:13:01. > :13:05.unions have too much influence, but the only way he could have gone all
:13:06. > :13:09.the way was to break the link with the trade unions, and he was not
:13:10. > :13:13.going to do that. It was not the Labour Party that founded the
:13:14. > :13:20.unions, it was the unions that founded the Labour Party. Even Tony
:13:21. > :13:24.Blair did not break the link. In that context, Ed Miliband has gone
:13:25. > :13:28.incredibly far. For the last 50 years, this opting into the union,
:13:29. > :13:32.you have to turn to page 50 of your union terms and conditions to say,
:13:33. > :13:36.do you want to opt out of the political levy 's that is going to
:13:37. > :13:43.go, which will mean that when the next Labour leader is elected from
:13:44. > :13:46.the union votes, they will get their ballot from the Labour Party and you
:13:47. > :13:51.will append the fast where ballots went out from Unison macro and GMB
:13:52. > :13:57.with a picture of Ed Miliband on the front of the ballot paper saying,
:13:58. > :14:01.vote for aid. They were Stasi and Saddam Hussein ways of trade union
:14:02. > :14:06.members electing the Labour leader, which will go. I am sorry his
:14:07. > :14:10.Lordship is not still here to answer that question.
:14:11. > :14:14.HMS Coalition is not a happy ship. The lovey-dovey days in the rose
:14:15. > :14:17.garden are long gone. It is not a loveless marriage, perhaps even an
:14:18. > :14:20.open one. The latest split is over the decision by Education Secretary
:14:21. > :14:23.Michael Gove to replace Labour peer Sally Morgan as head of the schools
:14:24. > :14:27.inspectorate, Ofsted. Mr Gove's deputy, Lib Dem David Laws, is said
:14:28. > :14:31.to be spitting blood about her removal, although only through
:14:32. > :14:36.surrogates. He has not said a word on the record. Here was the
:14:37. > :14:47.Education Secretary a little earlier. If there is another
:14:48. > :14:52.opportunity for Sally to serve in a different role at a different time,
:14:53. > :14:56.then I would be delighted to support her in the role which she thinks it
:14:57. > :14:59.is appropriate to do. There is nothing wrong with Sally but there
:15:00. > :15:04.is a principle across government that there should be no automatic
:15:05. > :15:09.reappointment, and that after three or four years, it is appropriate to
:15:10. > :15:14.bring in a fresh pair of eyes. That is good corporate practice in order
:15:15. > :15:22.to ensure that you refresh boards, bring a new perspective, and have
:15:23. > :15:25.tough questions asked. We're joined now by the newly elected deputy
:15:26. > :15:29.leader of the Liberal Democrats Malcolm Bruce. He's in Aberdeen
:15:30. > :15:36.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. David Laws is said to be furious
:15:37. > :15:40.with Michael Gove, is he? I think he is because Sally Morgan has been
:15:41. > :15:45.doing a good job and that has been generally agreed across the whole
:15:46. > :15:48.spectrum. I think Ofsted is an impartial body that inspects all
:15:49. > :15:53.schools and it shouldn't be subject to some kind of political direction.
:15:54. > :15:58.That is the concern, that she is being removed when she was doing a
:15:59. > :16:02.good job and most people thought she should be reappointed. It is
:16:03. > :16:15.strongly rumoured her successor will be a high-ranking Tory backer. Why
:16:16. > :16:21.hasn't David Laws said this himself, have you spoken to him? I have, and
:16:22. > :16:26.I know he is not very pleased about it but he will want to speak to
:16:27. > :16:31.Michael Gove himself when he gets to see him on Monday. The question you
:16:32. > :16:36.have to take on board is that David Laws is the schools minister,
:16:37. > :16:40.effectively the one who has engagement with Ofsted, and he is
:16:41. > :16:45.seeing it being undermined by the Secretary of State. There is a
:16:46. > :16:49.question that if Michael Gove is so pleased with Sally Morgan why is he
:16:50. > :16:54.replacing her, and who will he be replacing her with, and on what
:16:55. > :16:58.basis? Maybe parliament should have a confirmation hearing so that we
:16:59. > :17:07.can be assured that whoever is put in charge is there because they are
:17:08. > :17:12.good at it. Why has he licensed his surrogates to save this rather than
:17:13. > :17:17.saying it himself? He didn't, he knew I was on the programme this
:17:18. > :17:25.morning so I am giving you the answers as best I can. David is
:17:26. > :17:31.perfectly capable of speaking for himself. He hasn't so far. You asked
:17:32. > :17:36.me to come on this programme and David was anxious for me to know he
:17:37. > :17:41.wasn't happy about it, and I can certainly tell you that. I can also
:17:42. > :17:44.give you my own opinion which is that Ofsted is not the Department
:17:45. > :17:52.for Education, it is an independent body. The question you have to ask
:17:53. > :17:58.is will Michael Gove but someone in charge of Ofsted who will have a
:17:59. > :18:03.political agenda? If so, that is not what Ofsted should be used for.
:18:04. > :18:15.Let's move on to your own position. You are 69, white male,
:18:16. > :18:20.middle-class, what is your answer to the party with diversity problems? I
:18:21. > :18:24.don't think that is what they voted on. They felt I had a wealth of
:18:25. > :18:28.experience that would be vulnerable to the party from the period now
:18:29. > :18:31.until the election, not least because the central issues that will
:18:32. > :18:38.concern voters are the economy, and I have a track record of promoting
:18:39. > :18:44.the party's economic policy over many years. But you are not even
:18:45. > :18:48.standing at the next election. No, but we need to get to the next
:18:49. > :19:00.election and my colleagues have confidence that I can do a useful
:19:01. > :19:03.job for the party in that situation. We have developed and delivered
:19:04. > :19:05.policies that I have helped to shape and I want to persuade people to
:19:06. > :19:08.understand the Liberal Democrats have made a fundamental difference
:19:09. > :19:12.to the economic recovery. But you know what has been happening with
:19:13. > :19:17.the Liberal Democrats and their problems with women. Wasn't this a
:19:18. > :19:24.chance to select a woman in a major part? You only have seven female MPs
:19:25. > :19:32.out of 57, not a single Lib Dem woman in the Parliament. Again, why
:19:33. > :19:37.you rather than making a break and bringing someone in onto major
:19:38. > :19:44.positions? My colleagues have concluded that the role I am best
:19:45. > :19:50.qualified to do it, that is why they voted for me. We do only have seven
:19:51. > :20:01.women and that is an issue we need to address. Two of those women are
:20:02. > :20:07.ministers, one is a government whip. We seem to have lost our line to
:20:08. > :20:12.Aberdeen, just as Malcolm Bruce was in full flight defending his
:20:13. > :20:18.position. I'm not sure if we can get the line back, just bear with me for
:20:19. > :20:23.a few seconds to see if we can get it. It looks as if we have lost
:20:24. > :20:27.Malcolm Bruce, I do apologise to Malcolm Bruce and the viewers that
:20:28. > :20:35.we were not able to continue that interview.
:20:36. > :20:38.Fierce winds, torrential rain and a tidal surge have brought more misery
:20:39. > :20:41.to thousands. Official records show that southern England has seen the
:20:42. > :20:44.wettest January since records began in 1767. I remember it well. The
:20:45. > :20:49.Somerset Levels have been hit by weeks of flooding, with little
:20:50. > :20:52.respite from relentless rain. And, the residents of one village on the
:20:53. > :20:59.Levels, Muchelney, has been cut off for almost a month. We sent our Adam
:21:00. > :21:18.out with his wellies and a properly filled out risk assessment form The
:21:19. > :21:21.very wet road to Muchelney. This village of about 100 residents has
:21:22. > :21:29.been cut off for about four weeks, and like the weather vane, it feels
:21:30. > :21:35.a little bit spooky. It came up to here and your front door was there.
:21:36. > :21:40.Anita is just relieved the water stopped here, practically on her
:21:41. > :21:46.doorstep. Now it is the practicalities that are the problem.
:21:47. > :21:53.Driving around for food is quite a hassle. You are foraging. It's not
:21:54. > :21:57.as bad as that but we do have a few bits in the vegetable garden still,
:21:58. > :22:02.and we had some nice apples until the rats ate them but we are not
:22:03. > :22:11.doing too badly on that score. It sounds like the medieval! That's
:22:12. > :22:19.what it feels like. Talking of retro, who knew Somerset still had a
:22:20. > :22:25.Coleman, this is Brian's first delivery since Christmas. Everything
:22:26. > :22:29.has gone old-fashioned. We are now talking to neighbours we might never
:22:30. > :22:35.have seen before or spoken to so we are getting to know more people in
:22:36. > :22:39.the village. She's right, there has been an outbreak of Dunkirk spirit,
:22:40. > :22:46.quite literally. The council and the Fire Brigade have put on this boat
:22:47. > :22:55.service to get people to work and school. The church has become an
:22:56. > :23:01.unofficial flood HQ. This is where people pick up their mail, and this
:23:02. > :23:06.is where the people who run the boat stopped for their tea breaks. It all
:23:07. > :23:12.seems quite jolly, if a bit boring, but it is no fun for the homes and
:23:13. > :23:18.businesses that have been inundated, or for the farmers whose land is
:23:19. > :23:21.underwater, an area the size of Bristol, or for the villages which
:23:22. > :23:26.are less isolated but where the flooding is worse. People like the
:23:27. > :23:32.parish chairman are starting to get angry with how the Government has
:23:33. > :23:38.responded. It was all a bit late. We knew what was going to happen with
:23:39. > :23:42.the amount of rain on the fields and the Government was so slow to
:23:43. > :23:46.react. The county council got the boat going quickly but it was
:23:47. > :23:52.another four weeks nearly before the button was pressed for the major
:23:53. > :23:57.incident. Right on cue, the cavalry arrived in the shape of emergency
:23:58. > :24:02.crews from other parts of the UK. The rumour is that they will bring
:24:03. > :24:06.in a hovercraft but the bad news is that the weather is becoming more
:24:07. > :24:13.grim this weekend. There has been a surge in bookings at the campsite
:24:14. > :24:16.where people have seen the Somerset Levels on holiday and would like to
:24:17. > :24:25.come on holiday, if it ever stops raining. I'm delighted to say we
:24:26. > :24:29.have got the line back to Aberdeen, somebody has put a shilling in the
:24:30. > :24:34.meter. We can go back to Malcolm Bruce. We were talking about the Lib
:24:35. > :24:40.Dem women and your election, I suppose the point some people are
:24:41. > :24:48.making is that your party has as many knights in Parliament as it has
:24:49. > :24:55.women and you are one of them. The good news is that for the five MPs
:24:56. > :25:00.who are standing down, who have had candidates elected in their
:25:01. > :25:05.constituencies so far, all five candidates that have been selected
:25:06. > :25:08.are women. We need to fight hard to get behind those women and get them
:25:09. > :25:13.elected so that we have a much better balanced parliament in the
:25:14. > :25:16.future, but given that we have few women, you really have to pick
:25:17. > :25:34.people appropriate for the job and we have appointed the women as I
:25:35. > :25:41.have said but we need our image to be balanced. How many women
:25:42. > :25:48.candidates will there be come the next election? At the moment, 1 ,
:25:49. > :25:51.five more than we have now, and we haven't finished selection. Where
:25:52. > :25:57.there are men sitting and standing again, that is not likely to change,
:25:58. > :26:01.but where they are standing down we are overwhelmingly choosing women,
:26:02. > :26:08.and in my view good and very able women. What I would want to say to
:26:09. > :26:16.people is that if you want to see the Lib Dems have more women, go to
:26:17. > :26:23.those seats and help us hold them. We are told that only 20% of the 57
:26:24. > :26:28.seats have female candidates and in the unlikely event that you were
:26:29. > :26:34.able to hold onto them all, it still wouldn't be a sea change to have
:26:35. > :26:41.20%. The point is you have to build them up. We are supporting female
:26:42. > :26:47.candidates. These are really good candidates who will make first-class
:26:48. > :26:51.MPs and I certainly believe you will gradually see the Liberal Democrats
:26:52. > :26:55.taking them on. We don't have 3 0 seats that we currently hold like
:26:56. > :27:02.other parties, but what I can tell you is that increasing --
:27:03. > :27:08.increasingly we will have female candidates. One newspaper has said
:27:09. > :27:13.that you will deal with the Chris Rennard fallout quickly and
:27:14. > :27:18.privately, what does that mean? It means I will not be telling you
:27:19. > :27:22.because these things are not helped by comments on the airwaves. I hope
:27:23. > :27:26.it will be possible to have a resolution without people going to
:27:27. > :27:30.court but I don't think it helps anybody for me to comment on any
:27:31. > :27:36.aspect of how this will be done and I'm not prepared to do so. If you
:27:37. > :27:44.are not in full possession of the facts, why did you say you will deal
:27:45. > :27:48.with this privately? I have come into this halfway through, I don't
:27:49. > :27:56.have full possession of the facts, I doubt you do, and we have a process
:27:57. > :28:02.that needs to be followed through. Any comments in public do not help.
:28:03. > :28:09.Isn't it hypocrisy of a high order to hear from a party that is
:28:10. > :28:14.constantly calling for transparency in other institutions but when it
:28:15. > :28:18.comes to your own, you say, I am not going to talk about it. There are
:28:19. > :28:23.all sorts of disputes that happen in the world and often people don't
:28:24. > :28:27.talk about them because talking about them aggravates the
:28:28. > :28:31.situation. I believe you have to deal with them privately and I don't
:28:32. > :28:35.think trial by media in this context is helpful and I don't believe that
:28:36. > :28:41.those who choose to make those comments are making it easier to
:28:42. > :28:45.solve them. There are problems in other walks of life and the Liberal
:28:46. > :28:49.Democrats are not the only ones with these problems. We are trying to
:28:50. > :28:54.change that culture and I think we will do it effectively in our own
:28:55. > :29:05.way. We have a pastoral care officer now and I think that is the right
:29:06. > :29:09.way to do it. Thank you for that. Let's now go back to the story of
:29:10. > :29:17.the flooding in Somerset. We are joined by the leader of the Green
:29:18. > :29:22.party, Natalie Bennett in Millbank. Natalie Bennett, don't the Green
:29:23. > :29:30.party bears some responsibility for these floods? You have sided with
:29:31. > :29:35.the Environment Agency in the decision not to dredge rivers and
:29:36. > :29:39.that is one of the reason why these places have been flooded. Firstly I
:29:40. > :29:46.want to give my sympathy to everyone dealing with these floods. The
:29:47. > :29:55.homeowners, the farmers seeing sodden fields for weeks and weeks.
:29:56. > :29:58.We get that, we all have huge sympathy, particularly because so
:29:59. > :30:03.little seems to be done to help them. What is the answer to my
:30:04. > :30:09.question? I think there is strong evidence that dredging is not the
:30:10. > :30:15.answer. If you think about the flow of the river, where the pinch points
:30:16. > :30:20.are is things like bridges, weirs and towns. If you dredge the river
:30:21. > :30:24.in between those barriers, you just make the water faster to those
:30:25. > :30:29.points. The experts are saying that dredging is not the answer, it may
:30:30. > :30:33.be in particular cases, but you have to look at each river system on its
:30:34. > :30:37.own merits and very often the best way of dealing with this is working
:30:38. > :30:40.out ways to slow the watered down and make sure that people don't
:30:41. > :30:49.suffer unduly while you are doing that. The west of England
:30:50. > :30:52.agricultural Society, which I would venture knows more about the
:30:53. > :30:56.Somerset Levels than either of us, has said that without dredging, this
:30:57. > :31:00.was a disaster waiting to happen. The local drainage boards have been
:31:01. > :31:06.calling for years for dredging to be resumed. The National Farmers' Union
:31:07. > :31:10.has called for it, and the chairman of the West Sussex flood defences
:31:11. > :31:12.has called for more drainage, and he is a drainage engineer by
:31:13. > :31:17.profession. So I don't know where your experts are, but the experts on
:31:18. > :31:24.the ground am not the urban ones in London, seem to think this has not
:31:25. > :31:29.been caused, but made worse by the failure of the Environment Agency to
:31:30. > :31:32.continue to dredge. If you look at the example of the planning and
:31:33. > :31:37.climate change coalition, which is led by the town and country planning
:31:38. > :31:40.Association, who you would not describe as a group of radical
:31:41. > :31:45.greens, these people have said we have to look at how we deal with
:31:46. > :31:48.flooding in the future. But not in Somerset. These are the people
:31:49. > :31:52.currently being flooded, not somebody sitting in a quango office
:31:53. > :31:57.in London. They have asked for this to happen and it hasn't, and they
:31:58. > :32:02.are now flooded in definitely. We have to look at what is happening on
:32:03. > :32:06.a case-by-case basis. If you look at Germany, there are many cases there
:32:07. > :32:10.were, to deal with flooding, many farmers are paid to hold water on
:32:11. > :32:14.their land. Maybe we need to introduce those systems, because we
:32:15. > :32:20.have to protect farmland, but we also have to protect urban areas for
:32:21. > :32:28.safety. We saw a horrible flood in Wales were lines were endangered --
:32:29. > :32:33.where lives were endangered. That is the priority, to protect lives,
:32:34. > :32:37.property and farmland. Lives are endangered at the moment,
:32:38. > :32:43.particularly as this stagnant water turns toxic. And yet we are in a
:32:44. > :32:45.situation, again encouraged by the Greens and the lobbying Environment
:32:46. > :32:48.Agency, it says it does not want to dredge because dredging is
:32:49. > :32:54.expensive, yet it spends millions on a bird sanctuary. That is getting
:32:55. > :32:59.everything totally wrong. The government is getting everything one
:33:00. > :33:06.by cutting on flood defences. It has not cut on a bird sanctuaries. I
:33:07. > :33:14.don't know the details of that. But looking at the broader issue, we
:33:15. > :33:17.have to prepare for climate change. The government has slashed funding
:33:18. > :33:22.to the Environment Agency and has cut back on the number of staff
:33:23. > :33:24.available to deal with it and has removed the requirement on local
:33:25. > :33:31.councils to plan for climate change. These are all gambling the future of
:33:32. > :33:34.our lives and property and the future of our environment. Hasn't
:33:35. > :33:40.the high watermark of greenery now gone well past? You don't come out
:33:41. > :33:43.of the Somerset Levels with any great reputation. The UK government
:33:44. > :33:48.is now going to start fracking as quickly as it can. Brussels is
:33:49. > :33:54.loosening the CO2 obligations for 2030. The President of America is
:33:55. > :33:59.about to give the go-ahead to the keystone pipeline, a totemic issue
:34:00. > :34:03.for American greens, and your party is in a state of civil war in
:34:04. > :34:08.Brighton. It is over, isn't it? Absolutely not. We are seeing large
:34:09. > :34:16.amounts of extreme weather around the world. Any one event is whether,
:34:17. > :34:19.but we are seeing a lot of it and people are recognising that climate
:34:20. > :34:23.change is happening. If we are going to quote international experts, I
:34:24. > :34:27.can quote to you Ban Ki-Moon, the UN Secretary-General, not known as a
:34:28. > :34:32.radical green, and he said after the IPCC report came out that the heat
:34:33. > :34:34.is on and we must act. If you go to Christine Lagarde, head of the
:34:35. > :34:38.International Monetary Fund, again not a radical green, she was asked
:34:39. > :34:43.what kept her awake at night, and she said, we are not doing enough
:34:44. > :34:46.about climate change. So actually, people around the world are looking
:34:47. > :34:50.at what is happening around them are both people on the ground and people
:34:51. > :34:55.in high positions are saying we have to act on climate change. And in the
:34:56. > :35:01.case of Britain, that should absolutely not mean fracking. Sorry
:35:02. > :35:05.to interrupt, but I have evidence that you are planning a little
:35:06. > :35:09.career change. Don't go away. This is what happens when you let Nigel
:35:10. > :35:13.Farage present the weather. One thing leads to another and low and
:35:14. > :35:18.behold, the Sunday Politics now has a new traffic and travel reporter.
:35:19. > :35:24.Let's go back to Green Party leader, Natalie Bennett. Thanks, Andrew. It
:35:25. > :35:29.is easy out that, so let's start with our airports. I am pleased to
:35:30. > :35:35.say that Heathrow's third runway, Boris Island and all short-haul
:35:36. > :35:40.flights are, just like our arguments, well grounded. We suggest
:35:41. > :35:46.making or alternative arrangements, like a re-nationalised rail
:35:47. > :35:51.network, although it would be a glaring omission if we did not admit
:35:52. > :35:54.that that plan is currently being delayed by Labour Party foot
:35:55. > :36:00.dragging. Speaking of trains, we are hearing that high-speed two may well
:36:01. > :36:05.be derailing, or at least getting bogged down in political fog. One
:36:06. > :36:12.viewer, Ed Balls, has texted in to say he is completely lost. Thanks
:36:13. > :36:16.for the update, Ed. You are not alone among political commuters.
:36:17. > :36:21.Meanwhile, dumped UKIP manifestoes are causing major tailbacks across
:36:22. > :36:27.the South, apparently stretching all the way to Brussels. This does make
:36:28. > :36:37.driving road tricky, but UKIP's MEPs can, of course, just hop on their
:36:38. > :36:41.gravy train. The tree had a roundabout is blocked after reports
:36:42. > :36:46.of a political earthquake. It seems that a green unwound his beard to
:36:47. > :36:49.block a dodgy gas extractor. A motorist who turned out to be the
:36:50. > :36:55.environment minister object into the delay and was told to frack off as
:36:56. > :37:02.furious badgers demanded that he stopped moving the goalposts.
:37:03. > :37:07.Unregulated traffic in the city of London continues unchecked.
:37:08. > :37:11.Pedestrians should try to block bankers with sacks of loot rushing
:37:12. > :37:18.for the payments. But do beware the Lib Dem Exodus that is clogging up
:37:19. > :37:24.the motorways. Although they are in a jam, or is it a fudge, we are
:37:25. > :37:28.happy to make way for them, as, like all refugees, we say they are
:37:29. > :37:35.welcome here in muesli green. That is the travel. Back to you, Andrew.
:37:36. > :37:41.Natalie, I think you make my point. You are now preparing a new career
:37:42. > :37:44.in traffic and travel. Well, I do believe in lifelong education and
:37:45. > :37:49.that was an example of it. We know you have had a tough time today to
:37:50. > :37:56.get to our studio. Thank you for the effort.
:37:57. > :37:58.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:59. > :38:21.minutes, we will have The Eastern European is planning to
:38:22. > :38:27.vote for British parties in the coming elections. I need to know who
:38:28. > :38:32.you are, some more information but you can do for us.
:38:33. > :38:36.Once they fought and died for the right to vote, so how can we get
:38:37. > :38:42.young people involved in politics today?
:38:43. > :38:46.Here, three men were hanged for their part in the Nottingham riots
:38:47. > :38:52.and their campaign to extend the right to vote.
:38:53. > :38:55.My guests today, two people very interested in politics, the
:38:56. > :39:03.Conservative MP for North West Leicestershire and Labour's MP for
:39:04. > :39:07.Leicester South. Let's get your views on the state of the economy
:39:08. > :39:10.and what that means in the East Midlands, especially after the
:39:11. > :39:14.latest report that says that average incomes are still 6% load their
:39:15. > :39:16.peak. We have all of this good news but 0
:39:17. > :39:24.peak. We have all of this good news but this is still a problem. `` 6%
:39:25. > :39:29.below their peak. Our economy is growing faster than any comparator
:39:30. > :39:33.country in the world. Unemployment is falling, it fell by 30% in my
:39:34. > :39:40.constituency last year. There is going to be a while before companies
:39:41. > :39:42.making profits feeds through into wage rises but it is not surprising
:39:43. > :39:43.we 0 wage rises but it is not surprising
:39:44. > :39:47.we have 0 wage rises but it is not surprising
:39:48. > :39:53.we have had such a hit when we suffered a 7.2% contraction during
:39:54. > :39:59.Labour's great bust. The economy is growing strongly. Are you seeing
:40:00. > :40:03.that in Leicester South? I have been calling for growth for three years.
:40:04. > :40:07.We have had nothing for three years so thankfully we now have some.
:40:08. > :40:13.People out there are still having a really hard time, people are worse
:40:14. > :40:20.off by about ?1600 under this Tory government. The statisticians at the
:40:21. > :40:23.Institute of fiscal studies have worked out that because prices have
:40:24. > :40:30.been rising higher than wages people are really worse off and the Tory
:40:31. > :40:34.government have to do something. We have been doing things to ease the
:40:35. > :40:41.cost of living for people. Freezing council tax, it is frozen for the
:40:42. > :40:47.fourth consecutive year. Cutting Labour's fuel duty tax. What about
:40:48. > :40:54.VAT? We have cut 0 Labour's fuel duty tax. What about
:40:55. > :41:01.VAT? We have cut income tax, 1.7 million people are paying less
:41:02. > :41:08.income tax. What about the 10p tax that your government cut? People who
:41:09. > :41:13.are wealthier, people who are bit more privileged, we think it is only
:41:14. > :41:17.fair that they pay a bit more tax. They are going to reverse that. The
:41:18. > :41:19.wealthiest 10% have 0 They are going to reverse that. The
:41:20. > :41:25.wealthiest 10% have taken a 9% reduction in their income. Why
:41:26. > :41:29.shouldn't they pay a bit more? They have already taken a reduction. Do
:41:30. > :41:32.you think people in 0 have already taken a reduction. Do
:41:33. > :41:38.you think people in Asheville think it is fair that these millionaires
:41:39. > :41:44.are taking... OK, we will hear plenty more about this. All of the
:41:45. > :41:45.talk about immigration in the East Midlands, have 0
:41:46. > :41:47.talk about immigration in the East Midlands, have we overlooked one
:41:48. > :41:53.important point. East Europeans have the vote. One party in the East
:41:54. > :41:59.Midlands thinks it has spotted a massive opportunity.
:42:00. > :42:02.On the streets and canvassing votes. It is a traditional election
:42:03. > :42:06.site but there is nothing traditional about the target voters.
:42:07. > :42:17.This candidate is looking for East Europeans.
:42:18. > :42:21.Hello. I am out campaigning on behalf of the Liberal Democrats. Did
:42:22. > :42:23.you know that people who are living here from Eastern and Central Europe
:42:24. > :42:29.can actually vote? Yes, 0 here from Eastern and Central Europe
:42:30. > :42:37.can actually vote? Yes, certainly. Have you registered yet? Of course.
:42:38. > :42:42.Joanna came to the UK unable to speak in fish and now she runs a
:42:43. > :42:50.restaurant. She plans to vote but she needs more information. `` speak
:42:51. > :42:55.English. I need more information about what you can do for us, for
:42:56. > :43:04.Polish people. It is a short step across the street to the next
:43:05. > :43:06.target. This couple run two businesses from their shop, selling
:43:07. > :43:08.speciality teas 0 0 businesses from their shop, selling
:43:09. > :43:12.speciality teas and offering fitness training. They plan to spend the
:43:13. > :43:18.rest of their lives in the UK and they are alarmed by the
:43:19. > :43:23.anti`immigration mood. When you hear something horrible it is about
:43:24. > :43:30.Polish people or whatever. We work hard, we pay taxes. The Lib Dems are
:43:31. > :43:35.working hard on canvassing the sizeable East European vote in the
:43:36. > :43:39.region. Under European Union rules, citizens from member countries
:43:40. > :43:45.living in another country can vote there, leaving hundreds of thousands
:43:46. > :43:49.of votes up for grabs. It is no surprise perhaps that
:43:50. > :43:53.politicians are courting this new electorate. The turnout in UK and
:43:54. > :43:57.European elections is pretty low, around 35%. With more than 1 million
:43:58. > :44:03.people from Eastern Europe in the country they could have significant
:44:04. > :44:08.impact. But what would make Eastern European is vote for UK politicians?
:44:09. > :44:17.This newspaper is aimed at Poles living in the East Midlands. `` East
:44:18. > :44:23.European threw vote. We want a different kind of elliptical debate
:44:24. > :44:27.where the emphasis could be put on positive contributions that migrants
:44:28. > :44:36.make to the local economy. `` political debate. The Eastern
:44:37. > :44:45.European vote is a new force in British politics.
:44:46. > :44:48.You are number two on the Liberal Democrats list in the European
:44:49. > :44:52.election, your party has not been doing very well in the latest
:44:53. > :45:04.opinion polls. Are you courting Eastern European is to try to win
:45:05. > :45:08.their vote? `` Europeans. We work with everybody to try to get
:45:09. > :45:10.ourselves elected of course but the reason why we think the Eastern
:45:11. > :45:12.European community is very important... 0
:45:13. > :45:15.European community is very important... Is that why you have
:45:16. > :45:21.been as far as Boston to speak to them? As I said, the reason for
:45:22. > :45:22.working with Eastern European community is is because recently
:45:23. > :45:24.they have been quite 0 community is is because recently
:45:25. > :45:31.they have been quite demonised through some of the negative myths
:45:32. > :45:38.Page rated by UKIP and some people on the Tory right. `` perpetuated.
:45:39. > :45:42.They have suffered from their public image. We went to Boston to talk to
:45:43. > :45:46.these people and find out their views and feelings and I was quite
:45:47. > :45:50.surprised to find out that some of those communities are very, very
:45:51. > :45:51.disappointed with the political process 0 0
:45:52. > :45:51.disappointed with the political process in this 0
:45:52. > :45:54.disappointed with the political process in this country, some of
:45:55. > :45:58.them are quite scared because they are not sure whether some of the
:45:59. > :46:02.rhetoric coming out is actually going to hurt them. The idea was to
:46:03. > :46:07.try to find out how we can better engaged with these communities.
:46:08. > :46:13.Their votes could have a big impact on the outcome of the European
:46:14. > :46:18.elections. All parties reach out to all the electorate to get their
:46:19. > :46:23.message across. Unfortunately, turnout is traditionally quite low
:46:24. > :46:30.so every vote counts. Are you worried that your party is
:46:31. > :46:31.alienating Eastern Europeans? I think 0
:46:32. > :46:34.alienating Eastern Europeans? I think I message reflects the
:46:35. > :46:39.electorate who will be voting so it is reasonable that we tailor our
:46:40. > :46:42.message to them. Polish people are worried about anti`immigration talk
:46:43. > :46:48.and with your views and policies on immigration that could cost you
:46:49. > :46:52.votes. The people most vulnerable to the next wave of immigration are the
:46:53. > :47:01.last immigrants. I think some of the biggest supporters on curbs of
:47:02. > :47:07.immigration are recent immigrants. Will Labour be targeting these
:47:08. > :47:16.groups? We will be talking to everybody who has a vote. I was out
:47:17. > :47:20.just this last weekend with a Labour candidate in Leicester, knocking on
:47:21. > :47:24.doors. I have to tell you, people think the Liberal Democrats really
:47:25. > :47:28.let them down, broke all of their promises and I think people won't
:47:29. > :47:33.vote for you because of that. You think this will not make any
:47:34. > :47:37.difference? Every politician has to you engage people but at the end of
:47:38. > :47:46.the day the Lib Dems said they would end tuition fees, they wouldn't put
:47:47. > :47:52.up the 80... Do people feel down by Lib Dem policy? The Eastern
:47:53. > :47:56.Europeans we spoke to is engaged in the same struggle as everybody else,
:47:57. > :48:00.trying to work their way through the biggest recession in living memory
:48:01. > :48:04.on a caused by the previous government, so it is a bit rich
:48:05. > :48:14.coming from the gentleman on my left to talk about the problems of the
:48:15. > :48:21.Lib Dems. Student tuition fees were brought in during... You said you
:48:22. > :48:27.were going to get rid of them. You raised them in power. You said you
:48:28. > :48:35.were going to get rid of them and you are in power now. We have
:48:36. > :48:38.introduced a system which is fairer. How many Eastern Europeans were
:48:39. > :48:43.talking about this? It is hard to get the figures. There is an
:48:44. > :48:48.estimation of something in the region of bubbly a quarter of a
:48:49. > :48:56.million to half a million people in the East Midlands. `` probably. They
:48:57. > :49:00.could really play an important role. Anything any party does to encourage
:49:01. > :49:04.people to vote has to be a good thing and I support that. It is
:49:05. > :49:09.important that all of the parties reach out and the electorate decide.
:49:10. > :49:15.What other problems they are talking to you about? One of the major
:49:16. > :49:18.problems is this notion of not enough information coming through
:49:19. > :49:23.about how to register and in terms of whether or not they are eligible
:49:24. > :49:26.to vote. One of the things they are asking for is more information from
:49:27. > :49:28.the political parties and I have to say the Labour Party is completely
:49:29. > :49:30.ignoring 0 say the Labour Party is completely
:49:31. > :49:36.ignoring them because we spoke to them about local politicians and
:49:37. > :49:41.they say... You are missing a trick, aren't you? I was talking to people
:49:42. > :49:45.in Leicester just last week you have Swedish nationality and Danish
:49:46. > :49:54.nationality about getting them to vote, so it is not the case where I
:49:55. > :49:58.am MP. They feel they are being taken for granted. I have to say the
:49:59. > :50:02.contributions they make to the economy are not taken into
:50:03. > :50:06.consideration. One of the myths perpetuated is this thing about
:50:07. > :50:11.benefits. Actually European migration benefits the European
:50:12. > :50:18.Community. So we can't afford to ignore them? They make a net
:50:19. > :50:21.contribution. A campaign has been launched this
:50:22. > :50:23.week to persuade more young people to register to vote, after 0
:50:24. > :50:25.week to persuade more young people to register to vote, after figures
:50:26. > :50:29.revealed only a quarter of them plan to vote in the next general
:50:30. > :50:33.election. It is a far cry from the early days of the fight for
:50:34. > :50:37.democracy, where the East Midlands played a leading role in thousands
:50:38. > :50:47.of people fought and sometimes died for the right to vote. `` when
:50:48. > :50:48.thousands. On the march to Nottingham Castle
:50:49. > :50:54.for the right to vote. It 0 On the march to Nottingham Castle
:50:55. > :51:02.for the right to vote. It is 1381 `` 1831 and the landing gentry have
:51:03. > :51:03.blocked the right to vote. Ted knows all about voting. 0
:51:04. > :51:06.blocked the right to vote. Ted knows all about voting. He used to run the
:51:07. > :51:13.election counts in Nottingham. Now he wants the city's historic role to
:51:14. > :51:18.be celebrated. It is crucial that people understand just how hard
:51:19. > :51:27.fought the campaign to win the vote was. In 1831 riots broke out and the
:51:28. > :51:33.exhibition be putting on will explain that. Can it explain why so
:51:34. > :51:36.many young people are not using their vote? At the last general
:51:37. > :51:41.election only a quarter of young people between 18 and 24 actually
:51:42. > :51:46.voted. By the time of the next election for million young people
:51:47. > :51:50.will be eligible to vote yet a recent survey by Hansard indicated
:51:51. > :51:58.that only 12% of them were likely to use the right. I am not not voting
:51:59. > :52:01.out of apathy, I am not voting out of indifference and weariness about
:52:02. > :52:06.the lies and deceit of the political class that has been going on for
:52:07. > :52:09.generations. Did Russell Brand strike a chord and
:52:10. > :52:11.does he speak for many of his generation?
:52:12. > :52:13.I 0 generation?
:52:14. > :52:18.I am not really interested in politics. I believe that if you
:52:19. > :52:22.don't vote you don't get to have a say. In the school classroom there
:52:23. > :52:26.are 48 questions that go to the heart of the current political and
:52:27. > :52:29.economic debate but if our politicians struggle with these
:52:30. > :52:35.questions there are some future voters who might be able to come up
:52:36. > :52:44.with the answers? Why is it important to vote? Every person's
:52:45. > :52:50.vote is equal. A session at the school council at the National
:52:51. > :52:56.Academy in Nottingham `` Nottinghamshire and there is a key
:52:57. > :53:04.vote. All of those in favour raise your hands. All those against. Beth
:53:05. > :53:06.is eligible to vote already. I've turned 18 in January but registering
:53:07. > :53:10.to vote 0 turned 18 in January but registering
:53:11. > :53:16.to vote is a carbonated process. A national campaign called Bite The
:53:17. > :53:21.Ballot will encourage people to get on the register. Historically this
:53:22. > :53:27.is a pretty grisly place to be because in 1830 the gallows were
:53:28. > :53:31.built and three men were hanged for their part in the Nottingham riots
:53:32. > :53:36.and their campaign to extend the right to vote. Democracy was very
:53:37. > :53:43.hard`fought and people suffered to get the vote. Out of the embers of
:53:44. > :53:46.Nottingham Castle, the spark of universal suffrage. A new generation
:53:47. > :53:52.is being urged not to take that right for granted.
:53:53. > :53:55.Don Anderson from Derby is the vice`chairman of the National Union
:53:56. > :53:59.of Students. The people we saw and heard from in John's report were
:54:00. > :54:06.keen to vote, but how common is that? We have done research which
:54:07. > :54:11.suggests the vast majority of students want to register. It is for
:54:12. > :54:16.the parties themselves to give students a passion and make them
:54:17. > :54:22.want to vote for them. Why are not so many people interested? They feel
:54:23. > :54:27.like they have been lied to in the past. Students were told if they
:54:28. > :54:28.voted a certain way they would receive 0
:54:29. > :54:28.voted a certain way they would receive tuition 0
:54:29. > :54:31.voted a certain way they would receive tuition fees being removed
:54:32. > :54:35.and that never happened. Students turned out in record numbers in 2010
:54:36. > :54:40.and they found they did not get what they voted for. John, you are
:54:41. > :54:44.supporter of lowering the voting age to 16. Would that help? 0
:54:45. > :54:47.supporter of lowering the voting age to 16. Would that help? I do not
:54:48. > :54:53.think it is a silver bullet but if you give 16`year`olds the vote I
:54:54. > :55:00.hope they will get more engaged in the process. I also think... Catch
:55:01. > :55:06.them early, but I also think governments of all parties tend to
:55:07. > :55:16.cat back on things like tuition fees and introduce policies that aid
:55:17. > :55:23.other parts of society. `` cut back. Andrew, would you lower it? I
:55:24. > :55:28.wouldn't. Only about 20% of people in the country believe it is a good
:55:29. > :55:35.idea and most 16 to 18`year`olds do not think it is. I think it is
:55:36. > :55:39.pretty 0 not think it is. I think it is
:55:40. > :55:42.pretty overwhelming. Is it the case that young people don't think they
:55:43. > :55:46.have to get some engaged in politics, they can become
:55:47. > :55:52.politically engaged in other ways on campaigning on Twitter and Facebook?
:55:53. > :55:56.I think it is a two`way street. Students do like being activists and
:55:57. > :56:01.young people do like getting involved in campaigns that if you
:56:02. > :56:11.ask people from certain areas whether there is any point in
:56:12. > :56:18.voting, if any politician ever `` never said anything that interests
:56:19. > :56:22.them, why would they bother? You are on this programme, and we are very
:56:23. > :56:27.glad you are! Is it going to make a difference if young people don't
:56:28. > :56:34.vote? We will just have the same as what we have always had. Politicians
:56:35. > :56:39.are more accountable... This is through citizenship education as
:56:40. > :56:44.well. They are looking for you to say something interesting to young
:56:45. > :56:56.people. I was at Nottingham University a long time ago, 1983,
:56:57. > :57:01.and six weeks ago I took part in a debate at Trent University to get
:57:02. > :57:06.students to vote. They are very interested in the issues, of course,
:57:07. > :57:13.because they are affected, but you have to get them engaged. If you
:57:14. > :57:13.think about young people, they will be 0
:57:14. > :57:14.think about young people, they will be more 0
:57:15. > :57:18.think about young people, they will be more engaged if you give them
:57:19. > :57:22.more of a platform. A lot of the time you see tokenistic efforts,
:57:23. > :57:27.politicians going into schools, and that does not make them feel engaged
:57:28. > :57:33.with. Schoolchildren ask you the most difficult questions, I promise
:57:34. > :57:37.you. John will know that we have more and more school visits, young
:57:38. > :57:45.people visiting the Houses of Parliament every year, and we
:57:46. > :57:52.encourage that. This Speaker, John Bercow, was at a big event in
:57:53. > :57:56.Leicester and the students loved him. He chaired an event as if it
:57:57. > :58:03.was the House of Commons, with all of the shouting! It is a good point,
:58:04. > :58:13.sometimes the Parliament channel seems really boring. We disagree for
:58:14. > :58:16.the sake of disagreement sometimes and we go into the tea room
:58:17. > :58:24.afterwards and have a cup of tea together. It is like WWF wrestling.
:58:25. > :58:29.If politicians agree with each other, they should work together.
:58:30. > :58:38.Are you reassured by anything you hear? We have seen from four men on
:58:39. > :58:44.this programme and a lot of young women will be thinking, politics
:58:45. > :58:49.will never be for me. We will have to leave it here. Let's look at some
:58:50. > :58:55.more stories in the news. Another Tory scalper Nigel Farrage.
:58:56. > :59:12.The former leader of Leicestershire county council has joined UKIP. ``
:59:13. > :59:18.scalp for Nigel Harwich. `` Farage. Developers could be forced to
:59:19. > :59:22.provide flood prevention schemes. A Conservative MP is introducing a
:59:23. > :59:25.bill this week to make builders legally responsible for preventing
:59:26. > :59:29.flooding on land they are developing. Conservatives on
:59:30. > :59:33.Nottingham City Council have accused the ruling Labour group of an abuse
:59:34. > :59:38.of power. The Conservative leader has reported the council to the
:59:39. > :59:41.district auditor over poster campaigns she says Labour
:59:42. > :59:44.propaganda. Business leaders are fighting for improvements to bees
:59:45. > :59:49.Midlands rail link. The government has ruled out more money 0
:59:50. > :59:51.Midlands rail link. The government has ruled out more money but a local
:59:52. > :59:56.business club says the route is important.
:59:57. > :00:04.Surprised at David Parson's defection? He has travelled a long
:00:05. > :00:07.way, he started in the Labour Party, he was expelled from the
:00:08. > :00:13.Conservative party three years ago, and now he is in UKIP. If they found
:00:14. > :00:16.a viable economic policy that would be interesting. This is another loss
:00:17. > :00:21.to 0 be interesting. This is another loss
:00:22. > :00:26.to your party. It is a democracy and David will go where he feels most
:00:27. > :00:33.comfortable. Last week we had a UKIP regional chairman in the studio and
:00:34. > :00:37.he defected from Labour. It is mainly former Tories going over to
:00:38. > :00:43.UKIP, and if you look at their policies they are basically Tory
:00:44. > :00:49.policies. Good luck to him. Neither of your parties can afford to lose
:00:50. > :00:54.any more numbers to UKIP. We are increasing our members in the Labour
:00:55. > :00:56.Party. To me they are just another Tory party. We have to leave it
:00:57. > :01:02.there. Not a complete denial! Hopefully a
:01:03. > :01:18.Conservative mayor again. Not a good week for David Cameron on
:01:19. > :01:22.the tricky European front last week. President Hollande said he was not
:01:23. > :01:26.interested in major treaty reform for 2017. That is when Mr Cameron
:01:27. > :01:29.hopes to hold his in-out referendum. And the private member's bill to put
:01:30. > :01:34.that referendum on the statute bill was killed by Labour and Lib Dem
:01:35. > :01:41.peers in the Lords. James Wharton was the Tory MP behind the bill and
:01:42. > :01:47.he joins me now. What happens now? It is out of my hands what happens
:01:48. > :01:51.now, because Labour and the Liberal Democrats conspired in the Lords to
:01:52. > :01:54.kill off my bill. One of the options is for another private member to
:01:55. > :01:58.bring a bill forward when they have the next private member's bill at,
:01:59. > :02:02.and we can try again. The prime minister has indicated that he will
:02:03. > :02:08.support that. But whatever happens, it will be in the Conservative
:02:09. > :02:13.manifesto at the next election. Do you accept that cost this is Tory
:02:14. > :02:17.policy and not government policy that the government policy elite
:02:18. > :02:22.macro cannot bring forward a bill? That is the problem. The Liberal
:02:23. > :02:25.Democrats, despite having promised a referendum in their manifesto at the
:02:26. > :02:30.last election, now will not allow government time for a bill to
:02:31. > :02:34.enshrine that in law. That was why I brought it forward as a private
:02:35. > :02:37.member's bill. David Cameron and the Conservative Party through
:02:38. > :02:41.everything behind that. To many people's surprise, we got it through
:02:42. > :02:45.all the House of Commons stages Sadly, to their discredit, Labour
:02:46. > :02:50.and Liberal Democrat peers, doing the bidding of their masters in the
:02:51. > :02:54.Commons, is conspired to kill it. Do you accept that it is Conservative
:02:55. > :02:58.policy, but not government policy, that you could not use the
:02:59. > :03:02.Parliament act to get this through the Lords? That is not the case The
:03:03. > :03:06.Parliament act is clear that if a public bill passes through the House
:03:07. > :03:11.of Commons twice in one Parliamentary period, there is a
:03:12. > :03:14.certain amount of time that has to be between both bills being
:03:15. > :03:18.presented. There are some procedural steps to be overcome, but there is
:03:19. > :03:22.no legal reason why the Parliament act could not come into effect. I
:03:23. > :03:27.was talking about you not having a majority in this case. That remains
:03:28. > :03:31.to be seen. We saw previously that Labour and the Liberal Democrats
:03:32. > :03:35.sent enough people to frustrate its progress to make it as difficult as
:03:36. > :03:40.possible, but not huge numbers to vote against it. On a Friday, huge
:03:41. > :03:46.numbers of MPs do not attend normally. Getting that number might
:03:47. > :03:51.prove difficult. The Parliament act, which is a bit of an atomic bomb in
:03:52. > :03:55.constitutional terms, if that was used, they would turn up to vote
:03:56. > :04:01.against you. Is it not the case that after the countryside Alliance tried
:04:02. > :04:06.to involve the courts in the hunting ban that it was made clear that the
:04:07. > :04:12.Parliament act was not to be used for constitutional issues? I don't
:04:13. > :04:16.think we know how many would turn up and we don't know how they would
:04:17. > :04:19.vote. One of the things that has been revealed as I have gone through
:04:20. > :04:23.the process of getting this bill to get a referendum through the Commons
:04:24. > :04:27.is that there are big splits in the Labour Party. One of the reasons we
:04:28. > :04:30.did not see them turning up in large numbers to stop this bill from
:04:31. > :04:33.happening was that Ed Miliband knew that if he tried to lead his own MPs
:04:34. > :04:38.through the lobbies to block a bill, the only purpose of which is
:04:39. > :04:44.to let Britain decides to give people a say on membership of the
:04:45. > :04:47.union, a lot of his MPs may not have followed him. It is all fantasy
:04:48. > :04:52.politics anyway. The French president has made clear that he has
:04:53. > :04:58.no interest in treaty change this side of 2017. He would need a
:04:59. > :05:03.referendum as well . And he needs that like a hole and had. Merkel is
:05:04. > :05:06.not keen, as she is in coalition with the social Democrats. Without
:05:07. > :05:14.the French or the Germans, it will not happen, end of story. The policy
:05:15. > :05:18.is that we will try to negotiate on getting a better deal. I hear what
:05:19. > :05:22.you are saying, but I don't recognise it as reality. We have a
:05:23. > :05:25.strong bargaining position. But whatever the result of that
:05:26. > :05:30.negotiation, it will be put in an in-out vote to the Britain people.
:05:31. > :05:34.It is time people were allowed to decide. It has been over a
:05:35. > :05:38.generation since we last had a say. David Cameron has committed to
:05:39. > :05:41.delivering that referendum. The Conservative Party will have it in
:05:42. > :05:46.our next manifesto for the election. Whatever happens to my bill or any
:05:47. > :05:49.other of the bill that comes forward. If people want a
:05:50. > :05:56.referendum, the only party that can deliver that in British politics is
:05:57. > :06:01.the Conservatives. Let me bring the panel in. Nick, where is this going?
:06:02. > :06:03.It is clear to me and anyone who follows European politics that there
:06:04. > :06:07.is no appetite for major treaty change in the short run,
:06:08. > :06:12.particularly for the kind of major changes that Vista Cameron says he
:06:13. > :06:17.is going to get, and yet the Tories are talking about Europe again when
:06:18. > :06:19.they should be talking about the economy. And Francois Hollande is
:06:20. > :06:24.looking at 2017, the year we are meant to have this referendum. There
:06:25. > :06:28.will be a French presidential election going on, and Nicolas
:06:29. > :06:34.Sarkozy will be back in play by then. But James has an interesting
:06:35. > :06:39.point, which is that it is down to Angela Merkel. She would be more
:06:40. > :06:43.receptive to David Cameron's ideas of reform than people assume. She
:06:44. > :06:48.has looked over the edge at a Europe without the UK and said, that is not
:06:49. > :06:52.acceptable, and I am willing to pay a price, not any price, but a price
:06:53. > :06:57.to keep the UK in the European Union. And the French, because the
:06:58. > :07:01.UK and France are the only serious military powers in Europe, will
:07:02. > :07:07.eventually come to that position. So there is more support for David
:07:08. > :07:10.Cameron than people assume. The French are also not a strong
:07:11. > :07:19.position in terms of the euro and French economy. The Foreign Office
:07:20. > :07:29.seem a bit more optimistic about it. Of course they are. Douglas Hurd
:07:30. > :07:32.once told me, we are winning the arguments on the single currency. Of
:07:33. > :07:36.course anything from the Foreign Office comes with a health warning,
:07:37. > :07:40.but if David Cameron had won a majority and was determined to
:07:41. > :07:45.renegotiate, he is in a strong position with Merkel. There is a
:07:46. > :07:49.possibility that the French could eventually be talked around. So it
:07:50. > :07:55.is not entirely bleak on that front for Cameron. When do the Tory party
:07:56. > :08:01.managers say, look, stop banging on about Europe again? The economy is
:08:02. > :08:04.going away. We still have an electoral mountain to climb. Let's
:08:05. > :08:09.just talk about that and not be divided. They should have done that
:08:10. > :08:15.some time ago. It is already too late. The Tories need a seven point
:08:16. > :08:20.lead in the polls to get image are tea. The way things are, that would
:08:21. > :08:24.require a huge change from where we are now . It is very unlikely to
:08:25. > :08:33.happen. So all this is happening in some bizarre imaginary space with
:08:34. > :08:39.wonderful rainbows and sunshine But we can detect the beginnings of a
:08:40. > :08:44.shift in the last couple of weeks. If you talk to Tory backbenchers,
:08:45. > :08:49.Douglas Carswell is now saying in public that it is time to stop the
:08:50. > :08:56.fighting. If they are to get even close to winning the election, they
:08:57. > :09:01.can't do it if they are all against each other. I don't think it is an
:09:02. > :09:06.imaginary space. It is likely that David Cameron will have the largest
:09:07. > :09:09.party in the election. If it is a hung parliament and it is the
:09:10. > :09:13.Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party, David Cameron
:09:14. > :09:16.will save to Nick Clegg we gave you an AV referendum, I am having this
:09:17. > :09:22.referendum. And it will be difficult for Nick to say no. Let me go back
:09:23. > :09:27.to Mr Wharton. You are going to get a referendum in the manifesto. Other
:09:28. > :09:31.than Ken Clarke, everybody wants it. So why don't you just banked that
:09:32. > :09:36.and get behind the leadership Institute causing endless problems
:09:37. > :09:40.and coming across as a Europe accessed, divided party? I am
:09:41. > :09:45.absolutely behind the leadership. David Cameron announced the policy I
:09:46. > :09:51.am trying to bring forward in this bill. It is in line with the speech
:09:52. > :09:57.he gave this time last year. But getting that commitment into law
:09:58. > :10:04.will help to kick-start the negotiation process and mean
:10:05. > :10:06.everyone will know where we stand. But whatever happens, the
:10:07. > :10:10.Conservatives are committed to delivering a referendum. And to
:10:11. > :10:13.address the point that we talk about Europe too much, that is not the
:10:14. > :10:20.case. We have a good message on the economy, on tackling immigration and
:10:21. > :10:26.reforming welfare. There is more to do, but this is also an important
:10:27. > :10:32.part of policy. But at a time when the economic news seems to be
:10:33. > :10:36.turning in your direction, you are talking about the European
:10:37. > :10:39.referendum. Your backbench colleagues are trying to change the
:10:40. > :10:44.Immigration Bill every which way. Dominic Rather is putting in an
:10:45. > :10:50.amendment is and Mr Nigel Mills has been on this programme, putting in
:10:51. > :10:54.amendments that are clearly illegal. How is that helpful? The fact is
:10:55. > :10:56.that we are in a coalition, so there are areas of policy where
:10:57. > :11:03.Conservatives might want to go further and we are not able to do
:11:04. > :11:06.that. In other areas, we are delivering good reforms. But this is
:11:07. > :11:13.not a matter of going further. The mill 's amendment was clearly a
:11:14. > :11:17.contravention of the Treaty of Rome. That is where you get the headlines
:11:18. > :11:22.from. Some of your colleagues have a death wish? Would they rather have a
:11:23. > :11:27.Miliband government if the choice is an impure Cameron one instead? I
:11:28. > :11:32.don't think anyone in their right mind would rather have a Miliband
:11:33. > :11:37.government. Then why are they behaving that way? We have had some
:11:38. > :11:42.disagreements into the leak and debate within the party, but it was
:11:43. > :11:46.talked about on the panel just now. The Conservative Party is behind
:11:47. > :11:50.David Cameron and focused on winning the next election. Europe is one
:11:51. > :11:56.part of that. We have policies in a range of areas, but we are getting
:11:57. > :12:02.back on the right track. Thank you for being patient with us.
:12:03. > :12:06.Is this ghost story going to go somewhere? Mr Laws is talking
:12:07. > :12:12.through surrogates at the moment, but there is a strategy by the Lib
:12:13. > :12:19.Dems make these differential points now. I think it is fantastic
:12:20. > :12:23.coalition sports and entertaining, but in terms of out there, it has
:12:24. > :12:28.almost no traction whatsoever. I don't think any voters know who
:12:29. > :12:30.Baroness Morgan is and it sounds like one but politicians shouting at
:12:31. > :12:35.another bunch of politicians about their ability to give each other
:12:36. > :12:40.jobs. There is a larger point about the way Michael Gove runs his
:12:41. > :12:44.government. He is notoriously a very polite man surrounded by Rottweiler
:12:45. > :12:47.is, his advisers. He has made enemies of a lot of people in the
:12:48. > :12:52.media, and some of that will come back on him in the next 18 months.
:12:53. > :12:56.We shall see if Mr Laws himself sticks his head above the parapet.
:12:57. > :13:01.That is it for this week. The Daily Politics is on throughout the week
:13:02. > :13:06.at midday on BBC Two, except on Wednesdays, when we are on at
:13:07. > :13:09.11:30am. I will be back next week at the same time. Remember, if it is
:13:10. > :13:15.Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.