:00:40. > :00:47.morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. Rising flood water,
:00:48. > :00:52.a battered coastline, the winter storms forced the Government to take
:00:53. > :00:57.control. Is it hanging the Environment Agency out to dry?
:00:58. > :01:01.Embarrassment for the Government is the Immigration Minister resigns
:01:02. > :01:05.a cleaner with no right to work here a cleaner with no right to work here
:01:06. > :01:10.for seven years. Ed Miliband promised an end to what he called
:01:11. > :01:17.the machine politics of union fixes in the Labour Party,
:01:18. > :01:22.In the East Midlands, the billion pound contract that's good news for
:01:23. > :01:23.the whole economy. Plus calls for a full enquiry into British
:01:24. > :01:28.involvement in one of disruption in the capital the Mayor
:01:29. > :01:38.Boris Johnson will be talking to ask about strife on the Underground. All
:01:39. > :01:43.of that and after a week of very public coalition spats can David
:01:44. > :01:49.Cameron and Nick Clegg keep the coalition show on the road? Two
:01:50. > :01:54.senior party figures will go head to head. And with me, Helen Lewis, Nick
:01:55. > :01:58.Watt and Iain Martin who would not know they Somerset Levels from their
:01:59. > :02:03.Norfolk Broads, but that will not stop them tweeting their thoughts.
:02:04. > :02:10.We start with the strange Case of the Immigration Minister, his
:02:11. > :02:14.cleaner and some lost documents Yesterday Mark Harper tendered his
:02:15. > :02:17.resignation, telling the media he had discovered the cleaner who
:02:18. > :02:22.worked for him for seven years did not have the right to work in the
:02:23. > :02:27.UK. The Communities Secretary Eric Pickles said he had done the
:02:28. > :02:31.honourable thing. I was sad to see him go, he was a strong minister.
:02:32. > :02:38.Had he been a member of the public he would not have done anything
:02:39. > :02:43.wrong, but he set himself a very high standard and he felt that
:02:44. > :02:47.standard and honourably stood down. This would seem like a good
:02:48. > :02:51.resignation, maybe unlike the Baroness Scotland one years ago on a
:02:52. > :02:59.similar issue, but have we been told the full story? We wait to see that.
:03:00. > :03:03.Labour have picked up saying he is an honourable man, that the reason
:03:04. > :03:08.why he resigned is these very owners checks that landlords and employers
:03:09. > :03:14.will have to perform on employees over their documentation. The most
:03:15. > :03:18.interesting line is that, we do not require them to be experts or spot
:03:19. > :03:25.anything other than an obvious forgery. The suggestion that there
:03:26. > :03:31.is the document he was presented with originality, which he lost was
:03:32. > :03:35.on home office paper and was perhaps not entirely accurate. That is the
:03:36. > :03:39.embarrassment. He is the minister putting through a bill that will
:03:40. > :03:45.demand tougher checks on people and he himself did not do enough checks
:03:46. > :03:49.to discover she was illegal. There is an odd bit where he involves the
:03:50. > :03:54.home office later to check her out as well. He writes a resignation
:03:55. > :04:00.letter and he has to hold himself to pay higher standard. He has done the
:04:01. > :04:05.David Laws approach to this, resign quickly and he can come back. David
:04:06. > :04:14.Cameron wants him to return swiftly to the frontbenchers. He is a state
:04:15. > :04:21.school educated lad. He is the kind of Tory that the Tories are in short
:04:22. > :04:26.supply of. He is a rising star. I would caution on this idea that it
:04:27. > :04:32.is customary that whenever anyone resigns, it is always thought they
:04:33. > :04:37.will come straight back into office. If only the outside world worked
:04:38. > :04:41.like that. It is not, in a company if the HR person resigns, he is such
:04:42. > :04:49.a great chap he will be back next week. There is a silver lining for
:04:50. > :04:54.David Cameron is he has been able to move Harriet Bond up as he moves
:04:55. > :05:02.everyone up. But nobody will see her in the whips office because she is
:05:03. > :05:07.not allowed to appear on television. And if you three want to resign Do
:05:08. > :05:15.not hate you are coming back next week. But we will do it with honour.
:05:16. > :05:19.It has been a hellish week for residents of coastal areas with more
:05:20. > :05:22.storms bringing more flooding and after Prince Charles visited the
:05:23. > :05:26.Somerset Levels on Tuesday the Government has been keen to show it
:05:27. > :05:34.has got a grip on the situation at last.
:05:35. > :05:38.For last weekend's Sunday Politics I made the watery journey to the
:05:39. > :05:44.village of Muchelney, cut off for a whole month. Now everyone has been
:05:45. > :05:51.dropping in. First it was Prince Charles on a park bench pulled by a
:05:52. > :06:03.tractor. He waded into the row about how the floods have been handled.
:06:04. > :06:09.Next it was the chair of the Environment Agency, Lord Smith, who
:06:10. > :06:16.faced angry residents. Sought the river is out. That is precisely what
:06:17. > :06:20.we are going to do. Where he faced, a resident, he did not need that
:06:21. > :06:26.many. David Cameron went for a look as well and gave the region what it
:06:27. > :06:32.wanted, more pumps, more money and in the long-term the return of
:06:33. > :06:36.dredging. There are lessons to learn. The pause in bridging that
:06:37. > :06:41.took place from the late 1990s was wrong and we need to get dredging
:06:42. > :06:46.again. When the water levels come down and it is safe to dredge, we
:06:47. > :06:52.will dredging to make sure these rivers and stitches can carry a
:06:53. > :06:56.better capacity. The Environment Secretary Owen Paterson has not been
:06:57. > :07:00.seen again because he is recovering from emergency eye surgery. In the
:07:01. > :07:08.meantime the floodwaters rose ever higher. Some residents were told to
:07:09. > :07:14.evacuate. In Devon the railway was washed away by the waves leaving a
:07:15. > :07:17.big gap in the network. Look at the weather this weekend. If you can
:07:18. > :07:22.believe it, the storms keep rolling in. What is the long-term solution
:07:23. > :07:29.for flood prone areas of the country? I am joined from Oxford by
:07:30. > :07:35.the editor of The Ecologist magazine, Oliver Tickell, and by
:07:36. > :07:42.local MP Tessa Munt. Tessa, let me come to you first. What do you now
:07:43. > :07:47.want the Government to do? I want it to make sure it does exactly as it
:07:48. > :07:49.promises and delivers what every farmer and landowner around here
:07:50. > :07:55.knows should have been done for years. First, to solve the problems
:07:56. > :08:00.we have right now, but to make sure there is money in the bank for us to
:08:01. > :08:07.carry on doing the maintenance that is necessary. Was it a mistake not
:08:08. > :08:12.to do the dredging? When the waters start to subside does dredging
:08:13. > :08:19.become a key part of this? Yes, of course. It is something the farmers
:08:20. > :08:24.have been asking for four years When you wander along a footpath by
:08:25. > :08:31.a river and you see trees growing and there is 60% of the capacity
:08:32. > :08:36.only because there is silt, it needs to have a pretty dramatic action
:08:37. > :08:43.right now and then we need to make sure the maintenance is ongoing
:08:44. > :08:49.Oliver Tickell, was it a mistake to stop the dredging? If the dredging
:08:50. > :08:54.had happened, the land would not be covered in water for so long?
:08:55. > :09:00.Clearly it is necessary to do at least some dredging on these rivers
:09:01. > :09:04.and in particular because these rivers are well above ground level.
:09:05. > :09:10.They are carrying water that comes down off the hills well above the
:09:11. > :09:16.level of the flood plain on the Somerset Levels. They naturally tend
:09:17. > :09:23.to silt up. But the key thing is that is only a small part of the
:09:24. > :09:28.overall solution. What we need is a catchment wide approach to improve
:09:29. > :09:32.infiltration upstream and you also need to manage the flood plain on
:09:33. > :09:39.the levels and upstream so as to have active flood plain that can
:09:40. > :09:44.store water. This idea it is just about dredging is erroneous.
:09:45. > :09:50.Dredging is a part of it, but it is a catchment wide solution. Dredging
:09:51. > :09:58.is only a small part of the solution he says. Yes, of course it is. But
:09:59. > :10:02.look here. With the farmer is locally, the landowners, they know
:10:03. > :10:07.this land will carry water for a few weeks of the year, that is not a
:10:08. > :10:12.problem. But this water has to be taken away and there is a very good
:10:13. > :10:17.system of drainage and it works perfectly well. In my area there are
:10:18. > :10:22.serious problems because the dredging has not taken place. There
:10:23. > :10:28.are lunatic regulations around were when they do do some of dredging,
:10:29. > :10:34.the Environment Agency is asked to take it away because it is
:10:35. > :10:39.considered toxic waste. This is barmy. We need to take the stuff out
:10:40. > :10:45.of the rivers and build the banks up so we create protection in the
:10:46. > :10:49.future. We have to make sure the dredging is done but make sure the
:10:50. > :10:56.drainage works well and we have pumps in places and we have
:10:57. > :11:04.floodgates put onto the rivers. We need to make sure repairs are done
:11:05. > :11:08.more quickly. All right, let me go back to Oliver Tickell. Is it not
:11:09. > :11:12.the case a lot of people on your side of the argument would like to
:11:13. > :11:18.see lands like the Somerset Levels return to natural habitat? Looe I
:11:19. > :11:23.would like a degree of that, but that does not mean the whole place
:11:24. > :11:31.needs to turn into wilderness so it will remain agricultural landscape.
:11:32. > :11:39.Everybody, all the interested parties who signed up to a document
:11:40. > :11:42.called vision 2034 the Somerset Levels envisages most of the area of
:11:43. > :11:47.the Somerset Levels being turned over to extensive grassland and that
:11:48. > :11:55.is what it is best suited for. Let me put that to Tessa Munt. Have you
:11:56. > :12:03.signed up to this where you will end up with extensive grassland? I have
:12:04. > :12:08.seen it, but grass does not grow if water is sitting on this land for
:12:09. > :12:13.weeks and weeks. What you have to remember is a lot of the levels are
:12:14. > :12:16.managed very carefully and they are conservation land and that means
:12:17. > :12:23.cattle are allowed to go out at certain times of the year and in
:12:24. > :12:32.certain numbers. It is well managed. Do you accept it should return to
:12:33. > :12:36.grassland? Grassland, fine, but you cannot call land grassland in the
:12:37. > :12:41.flipping water is on it so long that nothing grows. It is no good at
:12:42. > :12:47.doing that. You have got to make sure it is managed properly.
:12:48. > :12:53.Drainage has been taking place on this land for centuries. It is the
:12:54. > :12:58.case the system is there, but it needs to be maintained properly and
:12:59. > :13:03.we have to have fewer ridiculous regulations that stop action. Last
:13:04. > :13:07.year the flooding minister agreed dredging should take place and
:13:08. > :13:11.everything stopped. Now we have got the promise from the Prime Minister
:13:12. > :13:16.and I thank Prince Charles for that. Is it not time to let the local
:13:17. > :13:20.people run their land rather than being told what to do by the
:13:21. > :13:27.Environment Agency, central Government and the European Union?
:13:28. > :13:33.The internal drainage boards have considerable power in all of this.
:13:34. > :13:37.They wanted to dredge and they were not allowed to. The farmers want to
:13:38. > :13:43.dredge that is what is going to happen, but they have signed up to a
:13:44. > :13:47.comprehensive vision of catchment management and of environmental
:13:48. > :13:53.improvement turning the Somerset Levels into a world-class haven for
:13:54. > :13:58.wildlife. It is not much good if your house is underwater. The
:13:59. > :14:03.farmers themselves, the RSPB, the drainage boards, they have all
:14:04. > :14:08.signed up to this. The real question now is how do we implement that
:14:09. > :14:16.vision? You give the money to the drainage boards. At the moment they
:14:17. > :14:21.pay 27% of their money and have been doing so for years and years and
:14:22. > :14:25.this is farmers' money and it has been going to the drainage boards
:14:26. > :14:30.and they pay the Environment Agency who are meant to be dredging and
:14:31. > :14:34.that has not happened. We have to leave it there. We have run out of
:14:35. > :14:38.time. Last week saw the Labour Party
:14:39. > :14:43.adopts an historic change with its relationship with the unions.
:14:44. > :14:49.Changes to the rules that propelled Ed Miliband to the top. Ed Miliband
:14:50. > :14:53.was elected Labour leader in 20 0 by the electoral college system which
:14:54. > :14:58.gives unions, party members and MPs one third of votes each. This would
:14:59. > :15:03.be changed into a simpler one member, one vote system. A union
:15:04. > :15:08.member would have to become an affiliated member of the party. They
:15:09. > :15:16.would have to opt in and pay ?3 a year. But the unions would have 50%
:15:17. > :15:21.of the vote at the conference and around one third of the seats on the
:15:22. > :15:25.National executive committee. The proposals are a financial gamble as
:15:26. > :15:30.well. It is estimated the party could face a drop in funding of up
:15:31. > :15:35.to ?5 million a year when the changes are fully implemented in
:15:36. > :15:40.five years. The leader of the Unite trade union has welcomed the report
:15:41. > :15:47.saying it is music to his ears. The package will be voted on at a
:15:48. > :15:50.special one of conference in March. And the Shadow Business Secretary
:15:51. > :15:59.Chuka Umunna joins me now for the Sunday Interview. Welcome back. In
:16:00. > :16:04.what way will the unions have less power and influence in the Labour
:16:05. > :16:08.Party? This is about ensuring individual trade union members have
:16:09. > :16:13.a direct relationship with the Labour Party. At the moment the
:16:14. > :16:18.monies that come to us are decided at a top level, the general
:16:19. > :16:23.secretaries determine this, whether the individual members want us to be
:16:24. > :16:28.in receipt of those monies or not so we are going to change that so that
:16:29. > :16:32.affiliation fees follow the consent of individual members. Secondly we
:16:33. > :16:41.want to make sure the individual trade union members, people who
:16:42. > :16:50.teach our children, power via - fantastic British businesses, we
:16:51. > :16:53.want them to make an active choice, and we are also recognising that in
:16:54. > :17:02.this day and age not everybody wants to become a member of a political
:17:03. > :17:08.party. We haven't got much time The unions still have 50% of the vote at
:17:09. > :17:24.Labour conferences, there will be the single most important vote, more
:17:25. > :17:34.member -- union members will vote than nonunion members, their power
:17:35. > :17:43.has not diminished at all, has it? In relation to the other parts of
:17:44. > :17:46.the group of people who will be voting in a future leadership
:17:47. > :17:52.contest, we are seeking to move towards more of a one member, one
:17:53. > :17:58.vote process. At the moment we have the absurd situation where I, as a
:17:59. > :18:07.member of Parliament, my vote will count for 1000. MPs are losing. .
:18:08. > :18:13.They still have a lot of power. I am a member of the GMB union and the
:18:14. > :18:18.Unite union, also a member of the Fabians as well so I get free votes
:18:19. > :18:21.on top of my vote as a member of Parliament. We are moving to a
:18:22. > :18:27.system where I will have one vote and that is an important part of
:18:28. > :18:31.this. You asked how many people would be casting their votes. The
:18:32. > :18:38.old system, up to 2.8 million ballot papers were sent out with prepaid
:18:39. > :18:48.envelopes for people to return their papers were sent out with prepaid
:18:49. > :18:53.turnout. The idea that you are going to see a big change... Even if
:18:54. > :19:05.your individual party members. In one vital way, your purse strings,
:19:06. > :19:07.your individual party members. In the unions will be more powerful
:19:08. > :19:17.than ever because at the moment they have to hand over 8 million to
:19:18. > :19:19.than ever because at the moment they fraction of that now. They will get
:19:20. > :19:30.to keep that money, but then come the election you go to them and give
:19:31. > :19:37.them a lot of money -- and they will have you then. They won't have us,
:19:38. > :19:41.as you put it! The idea that individual trade union members don't
:19:42. > :19:45.have their own view, their own voice, and just do what their
:19:46. > :19:50.general secretaries do is absurd. They will make their own decision,
:19:51. > :19:56.and we want them to make that and not have their leadership decide
:19:57. > :20:01.that for them. Let me go to the money. The Labour Party manifesto
:20:02. > :20:07.will be reflecting the interests of Britain, and the idea that somehow
:20:08. > :20:12.people can say we are not going to give you this money unless you do
:20:13. > :20:15.this or that, we will give you a policy agenda which is appropriate
:20:16. > :20:21.for the British people, regardless of what implications that may have
:20:22. > :20:26.financially. They will have more seats than anybody else in the NEC
:20:27. > :20:32.and they will hold the purse strings. They will be the
:20:33. > :20:36.determining factor. They won't be. Unite is advocating a 70% rate of
:20:37. > :20:45.income tax, there is no way we will have that in our manifesto. Unite is
:20:46. > :20:58.advocating taking back contracts and no compensation basis, we would not
:20:59. > :21:09.-- there is no way we would do that. How many chief executives of the
:21:10. > :21:16.FTSE 100 are backing Labour? We have lots of chief executives backing
:21:17. > :21:20.Labour. I don't know the exact number. Ed Miliband has just placed
:21:21. > :21:32.an important business person in the House of Lords, the former chief
:21:33. > :21:41.executive of the ITV, Bill Grimsey. How many? You can only name one
:21:42. > :21:47.Bill Grimsey, there is also John Mills. Anyone who is currently
:21:48. > :21:51.chairman of the chief executive With the greatest respect, you are
:21:52. > :21:56.talking about less than half the percent of business leaders in our
:21:57. > :22:02.country, we have almost 5 million businesses, not all FTSE 100
:22:03. > :22:09.businesses, not all listed, and we are trying to get people from across
:22:10. > :22:24.the country of all different shapes and sizes. Let's widen it to the
:22:25. > :22:29.FTSE 250. That is 250 out of 5 million companies. The largest ones,
:22:30. > :22:34.they make the profits and provide the jobs. Two thirds of private
:22:35. > :22:38.sector jobs in this country come from small and medium-sized
:22:39. > :22:42.businesses, and small and medium-sized businesses are an
:22:43. > :22:53.important part of a large companies supply chains. So you cannot name a
:22:54. > :23:00.single chairman from the FTSE 2 0, correct? I don't know all the
:23:01. > :23:10.chairman. Are you going to fight the next election without a single boss
:23:11. > :23:14.of a FTSE 250 company? I have named some important business people, but
:23:15. > :23:24.the most important thing is that we are not coming out with a manifesto
:23:25. > :23:34.for particular interests, but for broader interest. Let me show you,
:23:35. > :23:47.Digby Jones says Labour's policy is, "if it creates wealth, let's kick
:23:48. > :23:55.it" . Another quote, that it borders on predatory taxation. They think
:23:56. > :24:01.you are anti-business. I don't agree with them. One of the interesting
:24:02. > :24:05.things about Sir Stuart's comments on the predatory taxation and I
:24:06. > :24:08.think he was referring to the 5 p rate of tax is that he made some
:24:09. > :24:15.comments arguing against the reduction of the top rate of tax
:24:16. > :24:19.from 50p. He is saying something different now. Digby of course has
:24:20. > :24:24.his own opinions, he has never been a member of the Labour Party. Let me
:24:25. > :24:28.come onto this business of the top rate of tax, do you accept or don't
:24:29. > :24:34.you that there is a point when higher rates of income tax become
:24:35. > :24:39.counter-productive? Ultimately you want to have the lowest tax rates
:24:40. > :24:45.possible. Do you accept there is a certain level you actually get less
:24:46. > :24:51.money? I think ultimately there is a level beyond you could go which
:24:52. > :24:55.would be counter-productive, for example the 75% rate of tax I
:24:56. > :25:08.mentioned earlier, being advocated by Unite in France. Most French
:25:09. > :25:16.higher earners will pay less tax than under your plans. I beg your
:25:17. > :25:23.pardon, with the 50p? Under your proposals, people here will pay more
:25:24. > :25:29.tax than French higher earners. If you are asking if in terms of the
:25:30. > :25:35.level, you asked the question and I answered it, do I think if you reach
:25:36. > :25:39.a level beyond which the tax burden becomes counter-productive, can I
:25:40. > :25:44.give you a number what that would be, I cannot but let me explain -
:25:45. > :25:50.the reason we have sought to increase its two 50p is that we can
:25:51. > :25:54.get in revenue to reduce the deficit. In an ideal world you
:25:55. > :25:58.wouldn't need a 50p rate of tax which is why during our time in
:25:59. > :26:08.office we didn't have one, because we didn't have those issues. Sure,
:26:09. > :26:14.though you cannot tell me how much the 50p will raise. In the three
:26:15. > :26:23.years of operation we think it raised ?10 billion. You think. That
:26:24. > :26:27.was based on extrapolation from the British library. It is at least
:26:28. > :26:33.possible I would suggest, for the sake of argument, that when you
:26:34. > :26:40.promise to take over half people's income, which is what you will do if
:26:41. > :26:51.you get your way, the richest 1 currently account for 70 5% of all
:26:52. > :26:58.tax revenues. -- 75%. Is it not a danger that if you take more out of
:26:59. > :27:07.them, they will just go? I don't think so, we are talking about the
:27:08. > :27:10.top 1% here. If you look at the directors of sub 5 million turnover
:27:11. > :27:24.companies, the average managing director of that gets around
:27:25. > :27:34.?87,000. Let me narrow it down to something else. Let's take the .1%
:27:35. > :27:39.of top taxpayers, down to fewer than 30,000 people. They account for over
:27:40. > :27:44.14% of all of the income tax revenues. Only 29,000 people. If
:27:45. > :27:52.they go because you are going to take over half their income, you
:27:53. > :27:59.have lost a huge chunk of your tax base. They could easily go, at
:28:00. > :28:03.tipping point they could go. What we are advocating here is not
:28:04. > :28:08.controversial. Those with the broadest shoulders, it is not
:28:09. > :28:17.unreasonable to ask them to share the heavier burden. Can you name one
:28:18. > :28:25.other major economy that subscribes to this? Across Europe, for example
:28:26. > :28:32.in Sweden they have higher tax rates than us. Can you name one major
:28:33. > :28:38.economy? I couldn't pluck one out of the air, I can see where you are
:28:39. > :28:43.coming from, I don't agree with it. I think most people subscribe to the
:28:44. > :28:50.fact that those with wider shoulders should carry the heavy a burden We
:28:51. > :28:54.have run out of time but thank you for being here.
:28:55. > :28:59.Over the past week it seems that Nick Clegg has activated a new Lib
:29:00. > :29:01.Dem strategy - 'Get Gove'. After a very public spat over who should
:29:02. > :29:05.head up the schools inspection service Ofsted, Lib Dem sources have
:29:06. > :29:07.continued to needle away at the Education Secretary. And other
:29:08. > :29:31.senior Lib Dems have also taken aim at their coalition partners. Here's
:29:32. > :29:34.Giles Dilnot. It's unlikely the polite welcome of these school
:29:35. > :29:37.children to Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg and his party colleague
:29:38. > :29:40.schools minister David Laws would be so forthcoming right now from the
:29:41. > :29:43.man in charge of schools Conservative Michael Gove. Mr Laws
:29:44. > :29:45.is said to have been furious with The Education secretary over the
:29:46. > :29:49.decision to remove Sally Morgan as chair of Ofsted. But those who know
:29:50. > :29:52.the inner working of the Lib Dems say that's just understandable. When
:29:53. > :29:54.you have the department not being consulted, it would be possible for
:29:55. > :29:58.him to not publicly comment. The remarkable thing would be if he
:29:59. > :30:08.hadn't said anything at all. We should be careful to understand this
:30:09. > :30:19.is not always part of a preplanned decision. There is a growing sense
:30:20. > :30:22.that inside Number Ten this is a concerted Lib Dem strategy, we also
:30:23. > :30:26.understand there is no love lost between Nick Clegg and Michael Gove
:30:27. > :30:33.to say the least, and a growing frustration that if the Lib Dems
:30:34. > :30:36.think such so-called yellow and blue attacks can help them with the
:30:37. > :30:43.election, they can also damage the long-term prospects of the Coalition
:30:44. > :30:46.post 2015. One spat does not a divorce make but perhaps even more
:30:47. > :30:48.significant has been Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander s
:30:49. > :30:51.recent newspaper interview firmly spiking any room for George Osborne
:30:52. > :30:54.to manoeuvre on lowering the highest income tax rate to 40p. All this
:30:55. > :30:57.builds on the inclusion in Government at the reshuffle of
:30:58. > :31:00.people like Norman Baker at the Home Office and Simon Hughes at Justice
:31:01. > :31:03.people who are happier to publically express doubt on Conservative
:31:04. > :31:16.policy, unlike say Jeremy Browne who was removed and who has made plain
:31:17. > :31:20.his views on Coalition. It is difficult for us to demonstrate that
:31:21. > :31:29.we are more socialist than an Ed Miliband Labour led party. Even if
:31:30. > :31:35.we did wish to demonstrate it, doing it in coalition with the
:31:36. > :31:38.Conservatives would be harder still. Nonetheless a differentiation
:31:39. > :31:45.strategy was always likely as 2 15 approached, so is there evidence it
:31:46. > :31:49.works? Or of the work we publish shows the Lib Dems have a huge
:31:50. > :31:54.problem in terms of their distinctiveness, so attacking their
:31:55. > :31:57.coalition partners or the Labour Party is helpful in showing what
:31:58. > :32:02.they are against, but there are bigger problem is showing what they
:32:03. > :32:08.are for. And one Conservative MP with access to Number Ten as part of
:32:09. > :32:13.the PM's policy board says yellow on blue attacks are misplaced and
:32:14. > :32:17.irresponsible. At this stage when all the hard work is being done and
:32:18. > :32:26.the country is back on its feet the Lib Dems are choosing the time to
:32:27. > :32:30.step away from the coalition. That is your position, but do you suspect
:32:31. > :32:36.coming up to the next election we will see more of this? I think the
:32:37. > :32:42.Lib Dems are about as hard to pin down as a weasel in Vaseline. And
:32:43. > :32:45.with the public's view of politicians right now, and wants to
:32:46. > :32:53.be seen as slicker than a well oiled weasel? And we have Lib Dem peer
:32:54. > :33:02.Matthew Oakeshott and senior Conservative backbencher Bernard
:33:03. > :33:06.Jenkin. Matthew, the Lib Dems are now picking fights with the Tories
:33:07. > :33:12.on a range of issues, some of them trivial. Is this a Pirelli used to
:33:13. > :33:20.Lib Dem withdrawal from the coalition? I do not know, I am not
:33:21. > :33:24.privy to Nick Clegg's in strategy. Some of us have been independent for
:33:25. > :33:30.some time. I resigned over treatment of the banks. That is now being
:33:31. > :33:36.sorted out. But what is significant is we have seen a string of attacks,
:33:37. > :33:41.almost an enemy within strategy When you have Nick Clegg, David Laws
:33:42. > :33:49.and Danny Alexander, the three key people closest to the Conservatives,
:33:50. > :33:52.when you see all of them attacking, and this morning Nick Clegg has had
:33:53. > :33:57.a go at the Conservatives over drug policy. There is a string of
:33:58. > :34:04.policies where something is going on. It is difficult to do an enemy
:34:05. > :34:09.within strategy. I believe as many Lib Dems do that we should withdraw
:34:10. > :34:13.from the coalition six months to one year before the election so we can
:34:14. > :34:18.put our positive policies across rather than having this tricky
:34:19. > :34:25.strategy of trying to do it from within. Why does David Cameron need
:34:26. > :34:31.the Lib Dems? He probably does not. The country generally favoured the
:34:32. > :34:34.coalition to start with. Voters like to see politicians are working
:34:35. > :34:39.together and far more of that goes on in Westminster then we see. Most
:34:40. > :34:47.of my committee reports are unanimous reports from all parties.
:34:48. > :34:55.Why does he need them? I do not think he does. You would be happy to
:34:56. > :35:00.see the Lib Dems go? I would always be happy to see a single minority
:35:01. > :35:05.Government because it would be easier for legislation. The
:35:06. > :35:09.legislation you could not get through would not get through
:35:10. > :35:13.whether we were in coalition or not. The 40p tax rate, there
:35:14. > :35:18.probably is not a majority in the House of Commons at the moment,
:35:19. > :35:23.despite what Nick Clegg originally said. It does not make much
:35:24. > :35:27.difference. What makes a difference from the perspective of the
:35:28. > :35:31.committee I chair is historically we have had single party Government
:35:32. > :35:35.that have collective responsibility and clarity. The reason that is
:35:36. > :35:41.important is because nothing gets done if everybody is at sixes and
:35:42. > :35:46.sevens in the Government. Everything stops, there is paralysis as the row
:35:47. > :35:51.goes on. Civil servants do not know who they are working for. If it
:35:52. > :35:57.carries on getting fractures, there is a bigger argument to get out. If
:35:58. > :36:03.it continues at this level of intensity of the enemy within
:36:04. > :36:07.strategy as you have described it, can the coalition survived another
:36:08. > :36:11.16 months of this? It is also a question should they. I never
:36:12. > :36:18.thought I would say this, I agree with Bernard. Interestingly earlier
:36:19. > :36:22.Chuka Umunna missed the point talking about business support.
:36:23. > :36:25.Business is worried about this anti-European rhetoric and that is a
:36:26. > :36:30.deep split between the Liberal Democrats and the UKIP wing of the
:36:31. > :36:36.Tory party. That is really damaging and that is something we need to
:36:37. > :36:40.make our own case separately on. Do you get fed up when you hear
:36:41. > :36:45.constant Lib Dem attacks on you? What makes me fed up is my own party
:36:46. > :36:51.cannot respond in kind because we are in coalition. I would love to
:36:52. > :36:58.have this much more open debate. I would like to see my own party
:36:59. > :37:01.leader, for example as he did in the House of Commons, it was the Liberal
:37:02. > :37:05.Democrats who blocked the referendum on the house of lords and if we want
:37:06. > :37:10.to get this bill through it should be a Government bill. We know we can
:37:11. > :37:13.get it through the Commons, but we need to get the Liberals out of the
:37:14. > :37:18.Government so they stop blocking the Government putting forward a
:37:19. > :37:27.referendum bill. And put millions of jobs at risk? I am not going down
:37:28. > :37:32.the European road today. It strikes me that given that the attacks from
:37:33. > :37:37.the Lib Dems are now coming from the left attacking the Tories, is this a
:37:38. > :37:42.representative of the failure of Nick Clegg's strategy to rebuild a
:37:43. > :37:48.centrist Liberal party and he now accepts the only way he can save as
:37:49. > :37:54.many seats as he can do is to get the disillusioned left Lib Dem
:37:55. > :37:58.voters to come back to the fold? The site is we have lost over half our
:37:59. > :38:02.vote at the last election and at the moment there is no sign in the polls
:38:03. > :38:08.of it coming back and we are getting very close to the next election. I
:38:09. > :38:15.welcome it if Nick Clegg is starting to address that problem, but talking
:38:16. > :38:18.about the centre is not the answer. Most Liberal Democrat voters at the
:38:19. > :38:23.last election are radical, progressive people who want to see a
:38:24. > :38:27.much fairer Britain and a much less divided society and we must make
:38:28. > :38:33.sure we maximise our vote from there. We know what both of you
:38:34. > :38:38.want, but what do you think will happen? Do you think this coalition
:38:39. > :38:44.will survive all the way to the election or will it break up
:38:45. > :38:49.beforehand? I think it will break up beforehand. Our long-term economic
:38:50. > :38:52.plan is working. The further changes in policies we want to implement to
:38:53. > :38:59.sustain that plan are being held back by the Liberal Democrats. When
:39:00. > :39:03.will they break up? It has lasted longer than I thought it would, but
:39:04. > :39:11.it must break up at least six months before the election. Do you think it
:39:12. > :39:16.will survive or not? The coalition has delivered a great deal in many
:39:17. > :39:20.ways, but it is running out of steam. It depends what happens in
:39:21. > :39:24.the May elections. If the Liberal Democrats do not do better than we
:39:25. > :39:33.have done in the last three, there will be very strong pressure from
:39:34. > :39:39.the inside. You both agree. Television history has been made.
:39:40. > :39:43.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be
:39:44. > :39:58.looking at In the East Midlands, celebrations
:39:59. > :40:01.as a ?1 billion contract goes to one of our biggest manufacturers. It's
:40:02. > :40:08.going to help to regenerate jobs, ensure that the jobs that are
:40:09. > :40:12.already they are going to last. And the Sikh community continues its
:40:13. > :40:16.campaign for a full enquiry into how much help Britain gave in the
:40:17. > :40:19.storming of the Golden Temple. With over 400,000 Sikhs within
:40:20. > :40:29.Britain, we were just kicked in the face.
:40:30. > :40:32.Good morning. My guests this week are the Derbyshire Conservative MP
:40:33. > :40:35.for Mid`Derbyshire Pauline Latham and the Labour MP for Gedling Vernon
:40:36. > :40:38.Coaker. Welcome to you both. Pauline, let's take a look at an
:40:39. > :40:45.accusation that's been levelled at your party this week. That is the
:40:46. > :40:48.lack of women on the front bench. When Labour were launching that
:40:49. > :40:53.attack in the Commons this week, you were on the second row behind the
:40:54. > :40:57.Prime Minister. How did it feel looking around and seeing ahead of
:40:58. > :41:03.you that front row is all male? It isn't usually. We do have three
:41:04. > :41:06.Cabinet ministers who are female, but it's not enough. I know David
:41:07. > :41:10.Cameron wants to promote more, but we have got quite a lot at the lower
:41:11. > :41:20.level of junior ministers who obviously cannot go straight into
:41:21. > :41:23.the Cabinet. At the next reshuffle, you will see more women being
:41:24. > :41:27.promoted. At the last election, we did go from 17 to 34. But that's a
:41:28. > :41:31.huge increase. We are not doing enough and we do need to attract
:41:32. > :41:35.more women. But we need women out there to apply. It is a serious
:41:36. > :41:36.issue for your party. It is a serious issue for all parties.
:41:37. > :41:38.Labour have had 0 serious issue for all parties.
:41:39. > :41:43.Labour have had all women short lists. We have not gone down that
:41:44. > :41:50.route because the party is against it. But the Liberals don't have
:41:51. > :41:54.enough either. We must do better. Is your party taking this seriously? We
:41:55. > :41:59.are taking and we have taken this seriously for years and that is why
:42:00. > :42:03.we have seen a huge increase in the number of Labour MPs who are women.
:42:04. > :42:07.31%. That is a huge increase. We are going to do more. If you look at it,
:42:08. > :42:12.nearly half of the Shadow Cabinet are women. Over half, 55%, of seats
:42:13. > :42:16.which are regarded as winnable or where Labour MPs are standing down,
:42:17. > :42:20.women candidates are put into them. This is a huge issue for us, an
:42:21. > :42:24.important issue and we have shown by the way we more properly reflect the
:42:25. > :42:27.country than do the Conservatives. But it was funny seeing Rachel
:42:28. > :42:31.Reeves this week wriggling to make sure she got as close to Miliband as
:42:32. > :42:41.she could, telling other people to move. To make sure that it looked
:42:42. > :42:45.worse for us. They had all women... Your had an all men front bench. The
:42:46. > :42:51.accusation against the Tories is they are out of touch. And there you
:42:52. > :42:52.are, an out of touch front bench. More 0
:42:53. > :42:55.are, an out of touch front bench. More men, there are more people that
:42:56. > :43:03.went to Eton and Oxford than there are women in the Cabinet. We are
:43:04. > :43:06.talking about women here. We need to attract more women. But we are told
:43:07. > :43:10.we are not getting women applying because they think it is a difficult
:43:11. > :43:14.job. They do not like the yah`boo politics. I don't mind it, I was
:43:15. > :43:17.brought up in a male household. But I think that is putting women off.
:43:18. > :43:21.There are women interested in politics out there, if they apply,
:43:22. > :43:23.they might get the opportunity to come in. But you have to keep hold
:43:24. > :43:38.of them once you have got them. Labour are losing them. And there
:43:39. > :43:41.are Liberal Democrats going. But the fact of the matter is, the
:43:42. > :43:41.Conservative Party are not only losing 0
:43:42. > :43:44.Conservative Party are not only losing them, they are not replacing
:43:45. > :43:47.them. We have seen the issue with Jessica Lee standing down. Anne
:43:48. > :43:51.McIntosh, one of the most senior women in the party, deselected and
:43:52. > :43:53.told she was a silly little girl. It is a problem for all parties. More
:43:54. > :43:54.of a 0 is a problem for all parties. More
:43:55. > :43:58.of a problem for the Conservative Party, but a serious issue for us
:43:59. > :44:06.all and we are addressing it. David Cameron wants to change it. But he
:44:07. > :44:09.is going very slowly. A moment for the East Midlands to be
:44:10. > :44:17.proud, that is how unions at Bombardier have reacted to news of a
:44:18. > :44:18.?1 billion contract to build trains. The contract for the 0
:44:19. > :44:20.?1 billion contract to build trains. The contract for the new Crossrail
:44:21. > :44:23.line in London guarantees jobs at the plant for five years and could
:44:24. > :44:27.generate hundreds more. It comes just two years after the firm missed
:44:28. > :44:28.out on a similar contract for Thames Link. The mood is certainly
:44:29. > :44:36.different there now. This is an area I'm very familiar
:44:37. > :44:41.with because I grew up just down the road. Great news for Bombardier,
:44:42. > :44:47.let's see how people feel about it. Tracey, Bombardier ` great news.
:44:48. > :44:57.Fantastic news for me. I've not long had this cafe. About a year now. So
:44:58. > :45:01.it is tremendous. We already do Bombardier here, but quite a few got
:45:02. > :45:06.laid off just before Christmas so it is fantastic news for me.
:45:07. > :45:08.It is great news for the town itself. The company. It's really
:45:09. > :45:16.good news. It's going to help to regenerate jobs, ensure the jobs
:45:17. > :45:19.that are really going to last. I think it is absolutely fantastic
:45:20. > :45:30.news, not just for ourselves, but for the nation. Being a British
:45:31. > :45:31.industry. Fantastic news. With a smile like 0 0
:45:32. > :45:34.industry. Fantastic news. With a smile like that, I can tell you
:45:35. > :45:42.heard the news about Bombardier. Great news. I think it is smashing.
:45:43. > :45:45.I'm pleased for them. Chief Executive of the local
:45:46. > :45:48.enterprise partnership D2N2 is with us, David Ralph. Smiles all round
:45:49. > :45:52.there. Everyone saying it will have a massive knock`on effect for the
:45:53. > :45:57.whole Midlands. In what way? It is great for Bombardier and the supply
:45:58. > :46:01.change there. Lots of firms out there who work with Bombardier and
:46:02. > :46:03.we think there will be hundreds of jobs generated in Bombardier and the
:46:04. > :46:07.smaller medium`sized enterprises as well. We have heard the unions say
:46:08. > :46:10.that losing that Thames Link contract a couple of years ago
:46:11. > :46:13.actually did the industry a favour in a way because it raised the
:46:14. > :46:21.profile of manufacturing in this country. We are pushing very hard in
:46:22. > :46:26.rail, planes, automobile sector, which is big in this part of the
:46:27. > :46:30.world. With this agenda moving into manufacturing, we want to move away
:46:31. > :46:36.from the public sector economy into more jobs in the private sector and
:46:37. > :46:46.manufacturing. Losing Thames Link was very negative for this part of
:46:47. > :46:50.the world. As well as the obvious joy, there is relief as well. Yes,
:46:51. > :46:53.because jobs are now protected, there will be more jobs, 80
:46:54. > :46:58.apprenticeships needed. It is going to be a massive thing. That is just
:46:59. > :47:02.the employment at Bombardier. We have got all the knock`on supply
:47:03. > :47:06.chain and that is going to be fantastic for them. It gives them
:47:07. > :47:08.more certainty. As politicians, we should be promoting our local
:47:09. > :47:09.smaller and medium`sized companies and building on 0
:47:10. > :47:13.smaller and medium`sized companies and building on that. Derby is a
:47:14. > :47:17.centre of excellence for engineering and we need to build on that and
:47:18. > :47:26.have more companies coming into Derby to capitalise on that factor.
:47:27. > :47:29.It is not just Derby, the whole of the East Midlands. There is a real
:47:30. > :47:33.emphasis on manufacturing across the East Midlands. Derby is a linchpin
:47:34. > :47:36.around rail and Rolls`Royce. But there are similar qualities in
:47:37. > :47:42.Leicester and Nottingham. It sounds like the government's emphasis on
:47:43. > :47:45.manufactureing is paying dividends. All of us welcome what has happened
:47:46. > :47:46.with respect to Bombardier. A sense of relief 0
:47:47. > :47:48.with respect to Bombardier. A sense of relief and a sense of joy.
:47:49. > :47:57.Clearly, manufacturing is really important. I think, and I think
:47:58. > :48:00.there is a consensus across parties about the fact that it is important,
:48:01. > :48:08.it is the skills agenda, developing apprenticeships. It is important
:48:09. > :48:12.that people go to university. But it is also the skills and engineering
:48:13. > :48:15.and the skills and the other trades as well. Pauline, would the
:48:16. > :48:20.government have dared not give this contract to Bombardier after what
:48:21. > :48:23.happened with Thames Link? It was not the government's agenda, it was
:48:24. > :48:28.Crossrail, it was down to them to decide. I did lobby Boris Johnson
:48:29. > :48:35.very hard. But it was not ministers' decision. It was outside of
:48:36. > :48:41.government. I am just so thrilled. Derby is now attracting other
:48:42. > :48:44.businesses in. There will be better employment opportunities in
:48:45. > :48:53.mid`Derbyshire. That has got to be a good thing. Now that Derby has got
:48:54. > :48:59.it, how to we build on this? The rail sector is growing. That is
:49:00. > :49:03.important. Let's have the HS2 Academy in this part of the world.
:49:04. > :49:08.We would like to see that in Derby and in the D2N2 area. What are the
:49:09. > :49:12.chances of that happening? I shall be lobbying very hard. But there are
:49:13. > :49:17.other MPs lobbying as well. I will be doing my best to get it to Derby.
:49:18. > :49:20.There is so much going on in the area, businesses are being attracted
:49:21. > :49:23.here because of the engineering focus. If we get that academy in
:49:24. > :49:32.Derby, that would be fantastic. What are you hoping in terms of the
:49:33. > :49:36.knock`on effect? It gives a whole area of the region a boost. Just to
:49:37. > :49:40.say, that whatever government it is, there is a role to play in this. If
:49:41. > :49:46.somebody is not good enough, you cannot give them the contract. But
:49:47. > :49:50.government procurement, government has a role to play. Let's look at
:49:51. > :49:54.what British industry can do. With the East Midlands, that is around
:49:55. > :49:58.engineering. The big thing that comes out of this is that Britain,
:49:59. > :50:05.once again, led by the Midlands, is seeing manufacturing is important.
:50:06. > :50:14.It took a long time to get to this Crossrail project. It is a different
:50:15. > :50:17.economic model. The last boom time was based on the service sector and
:50:18. > :50:26.London. And there's a sense of trying to rebalance the economy. The
:50:27. > :50:29.East Midlands is leading that. We have the health and creative
:50:30. > :50:32.industries... We will be encouraging further investment in skills. There
:50:33. > :50:35.is no denying this is fantastic news. Let's play devil's advocate.
:50:36. > :50:39.Is manufacturing really the future? It is not going to go back to the
:50:40. > :50:47.days when Bombardier was employing thousands of people. The future is
:50:48. > :50:51.advanced manufacturing. We have some of the highest level of skills and
:50:52. > :50:54.technology in this part of the world. We have to train the
:50:55. > :50:57.workforce. That is really important. We haven't talked about exporting,
:50:58. > :51:06.this is a global market. We need the skills in the local area. There is a
:51:07. > :51:09.high quality apprenticeships at Rolls`Royce, and there are other
:51:10. > :51:15.apprenticeships coming through this. There are opportunities there. The
:51:16. > :51:20.future is bright, but we have to make the most of it. In the East
:51:21. > :51:24.Midlands, there is an offer you that you do not see elsewhere. The
:51:25. > :51:26.knock`on effect to small businesses, they will be high skilled jobs and
:51:27. > :51:28.that will be right 0 they will be high skilled jobs and
:51:29. > :51:31.that will be right across our region as well. And we need for girls to go
:51:32. > :51:36.into manufacturing and engineering. It is not the dirty, oily rag job
:51:37. > :51:42.that it used to be. It is much more skilled opportunity.
:51:43. > :51:47.Thank you, David Ralph. Celebrations in Derby. But there has
:51:48. > :51:52.been anger elsewhere in the East Midlands. Many in the region's Sikh
:51:53. > :51:54.communities in the area are not satisfied with the government's
:51:55. > :51:58.account of how the British helped India to plan an assault on the Sikh
:51:59. > :52:02.temple in Amritsar in 1984. Hundreds of people died when troops moved in
:52:03. > :52:05.against Sikh militants. Some people put the death toll in the thousands.
:52:06. > :52:09.This week, the government said British advice was limited and not
:52:10. > :52:12.followed. The Indian home ministry put police
:52:13. > :52:17.on alert all over India, warning them to stand by to protect public
:52:18. > :52:24.areas. That warning was issued with the news that the Army had captured
:52:25. > :52:27.the Golden Temple at Amritsar. It is seen as one of the most
:52:28. > :52:30.significant events in in Sikh history. When the Indian army moved
:52:31. > :52:37.against militants barricaded inside the Golden Temple, hundreds died.
:52:38. > :52:41.Some accounts say thousands. It's never been forgotten by the Sikh
:52:42. > :52:44.community here in the East Midlands. They were horrified to learn in
:52:45. > :52:47.papers accidentally released earlier this month that the British
:52:48. > :52:52.government had been asked for and provided help.
:52:53. > :52:56.With over 400,000 Sikhs within Britain, you ask yourself, we were
:52:57. > :52:59.just kicked in the face really. After pressure on the government, an
:53:00. > :53:03.enquiry was quickly launched into what help the British had provided
:53:04. > :53:05.30 years ago. The Cabinet Secretary's report
:53:06. > :53:08.concludes that the nature of the UK's assistance was purely advisory,
:53:09. > :53:12.limited and provided to the Indian government at an early stage in
:53:13. > :53:15.their planning. The government is keenly aware of
:53:16. > :53:18.the influence of the Sikh community, numbering hundreds of thousands in
:53:19. > :53:25.the UK and many in marginal constituencies.
:53:26. > :53:29.British Sikhs have made and continue to make a vital contribution to our
:53:30. > :53:32.national life. From serving in two world wars to running businesses and
:53:33. > :53:38.playing a massive part in our communities today. I never forget
:53:39. > :53:47.this. Last year, the Prime Minister
:53:48. > :53:50.visited Amritsar. But the results of the enquiry have not pleased
:53:51. > :53:52.everyone in Leicester's Sikh community.
:53:53. > :53:55.We want a full enquiry. We want an apology from the British government.
:53:56. > :54:00.It's not a matter of the Sikh community only, it is a matter of
:54:01. > :54:03.the whole community. Others acknowledge a complex issue
:54:04. > :54:15.and feel the attack on the temple was inevitable.
:54:16. > :54:20.What was she determined, Indira Gandhi did what was good for her.
:54:21. > :54:25.You can investigate it as much as you like, but at the end of the day,
:54:26. > :54:27.you will find that it was not in the British hand.
:54:28. > :54:31.But many Sikhs still feel the issue is not being taken seriously by the
:54:32. > :54:34.government and want to see a full public enquiry into British
:54:35. > :54:49.involvement in one of the bloodiest chapter in their history.
:54:50. > :54:56.We are joined now by Pramjit Singh Gill, a former Lib Dem MP. You have
:54:57. > :54:59.had a meeting at government level. The government has responded, are
:55:00. > :55:04.you happy? Can I say first of all that twice in
:55:05. > :55:07.the last century in its time of need, Sikhs came to the aid of
:55:08. > :55:10.Britain, fighting and dying in two world wars. Along the way, they won
:55:11. > :55:13.a disproportionate number of Victoria Crosses. I think the
:55:14. > :55:17.revelations came as a shock to Sikhs. In the UK and across the
:55:18. > :55:20.world. Sikhs are angry and upset. They were shocking revelations. How
:55:21. > :55:23.a UK government could be complicit in providing advice to India to
:55:24. > :55:27.launch an attack on the holiest shrine. Naturally, there is a great
:55:28. > :55:33.deal of upset. Give us an idea of how seriously...
:55:34. > :55:37.The enormity of the attack. It is like as if the UK provided advice to
:55:38. > :55:42.attack the Vatican, or perhaps the Kaaba in Mecca. It would evoke an
:55:43. > :55:48.enormous reaction. Do you think the government has done
:55:49. > :55:51.enough on this? This report is very comprehensive. They are talking
:55:52. > :55:55.about 30,000 documents that have been through, 200 files, it is not
:55:56. > :56:08.the government that has done it, it is a senior civil servant. They have
:56:09. > :56:12.looked very hard and they cannot find that a lot of people... One
:56:13. > :56:14.civil servant went out to help advise the Indian government. After
:56:15. > :56:15.they advised 0 advise the Indian government. After
:56:16. > :56:18.they advised the Indian government, things changed. There were many,
:56:19. > :56:22.many more people in the temple. The Indian government had to make a
:56:23. > :56:26.decision as to what it was going to do. I don't think they necessarily
:56:27. > :56:26.used the advice that was given. Can I say, 0
:56:27. > :56:29.used the advice that was given. Can I say, it is wrong on principle,
:56:30. > :56:33.morally wrong, to be advising a foreign country to launch an attack
:56:34. > :56:42.on a holy shrine, regardless to the degree that it is taken on board.
:56:43. > :56:47.What is Labour's view? Clearly, there are unanswered questions.
:56:48. > :56:52.There are still documents that probably should be released that
:56:53. > :56:56.have not been released. They were released accidentally? There are
:56:57. > :56:59.still other documents that, for the confidence of the Sikh community who
:57:00. > :57:06.have contributed enormously in the past and now, I think there is a
:57:07. > :57:10.need for a full enquiry. The other thing that I think is important is
:57:11. > :57:16.that the review that was done was just up until June 1984. There is a
:57:17. > :57:23.need for us to look further at what happened after that as well. We met
:57:24. > :57:28.with the Cabinet Secretary on 29 January and said, the remit of your
:57:29. > :57:34.review, it is too narrow. It only goes up to June 1984. Later in that
:57:35. > :57:38.year, there was a genocide of Sikhs in India. Some estimate more than
:57:39. > :57:43.100,000 men, women and children were killed. What we are asking for now
:57:44. > :57:46.is that there ought to be an independent, judge led enquiry which
:57:47. > :57:49.can look at documentation that has not been released and for the
:57:50. > :57:55.government to bring forward the release of that documentation. There
:57:56. > :57:58.is still a lot of dissatisfaction over this and the Sikhs are a
:57:59. > :58:03.powerful lobby. Are votes at stake because of this? It is inevitable
:58:04. > :58:05.that Siks have been hurt and with the pain they are feeling, they are
:58:06. > :58:07.going to say we 0 the pain they are feeling, they are
:58:08. > :58:12.going to say we will have to demonstrate and reflect that in our
:58:13. > :58:18.votes. We have got European elections coming on, local elections
:58:19. > :58:21.and next year the general election. And we have a lot of Sikh
:58:22. > :58:29.communities within our region. But it is about truth and justice. These
:58:30. > :58:33.things are so important. People want to know what happened, what was the
:58:34. > :58:36.justification, they want to know the truth and then they will make their
:58:37. > :58:40.judgements. You have experience of government at that level, how do you
:58:41. > :58:43.handle such a sensitive issue as this? To be fair to the Prime
:58:44. > :58:46.Minister, if you look at the Bloody Sunday enquiry, lots of documents
:58:47. > :58:58.were published and he had universal praise for that. As I have said,
:58:59. > :59:01.there is a need for us to look at some of the documents that have not
:59:02. > :59:10.been published, to look at those, a full enquiry. Will there be a full
:59:11. > :59:14.enquiry now? It is going to depend on people like Vernon and Pauline,
:59:15. > :59:18.whether they sign up to a full enquiry taking place. Clearly, there
:59:19. > :59:21.is a demand out there for the truth to be told and I think the Sikhs,
:59:22. > :59:28.given the gravity of the decision taken, that is the least they
:59:29. > :59:30.deserve. I don't think anybody is saying we do not want the truth. We
:59:31. > :59:32.want to 0 saying we do not want the truth. We
:59:33. > :59:37.want to know what happened in 1984 and afterwards. I hope you're not
:59:38. > :59:41.saying that the genocide you claim happened was something to do with
:59:42. > :59:48.the British government. I'm sure it was not. Genocide is not from an
:59:49. > :59:52.outside organisation, usually. The threat of saying if you do not do
:59:53. > :59:56.what we want, we will vote against you... I'm just saying that people
:59:57. > :00:00.will reflect in their votes the pain that they are feeling. In terms of
:00:01. > :00:08.your point about the report, there were Ministry of Defence documents
:00:09. > :00:18.that were destroyed in 2009. They were vital to shed light on this.
:00:19. > :00:21.They knew full well... Some of the ones that were destroyed in the
:00:22. > :00:24.Foreign Office were actually in other departments. A lot of stuff
:00:25. > :00:29.has come out... Documents were destroyed and it was so serious...
:00:30. > :00:31.It is something we will come back to.
:00:32. > :00:42.Now other stories across the East Midlands. Here is 60 Seconds.
:00:43. > :00:46.After a series of defections to UKIP, East Midlands conservatives
:00:47. > :00:51.are celebrating someone coming the other way. Steve Hassall, a former
:00:52. > :01:02.UKIP branch secretary, is standing for the Conservatives in May's
:01:03. > :01:06.elections. MEP Emma McClarkin has welcomed an
:01:07. > :01:12.EU ruling introducing a Europe wide licence to Internet music providers.
:01:13. > :01:16.Another MEP is praising the European Parliament. The Liberal Democrat
:01:17. > :01:17.Bill Newton Dunn has welcomed a law to strengthen rights for air
:01:18. > :01:21.passengers. `` a 0 to strengthen rights for air
:01:22. > :01:24.passengers. `` a move. Anyone would think there is an election coming.
:01:25. > :01:28.Oh, there is. We will be choosing our next MEPs in May.
:01:29. > :01:44.Derby is becoming a sister city to Hebron in Palestine. After a visit
:01:45. > :01:46.by the 0 Hebron in Palestine. After a visit
:01:47. > :01:50.by the mayor of Derby, the city is to set up links between primary
:01:51. > :01:53.schools and sponsor a student in the West Bank city.
:01:54. > :01:56.What do you think about that? Hebron and Derby. I don't have a problem
:01:57. > :01:57.with that, except Derby City Council say 0
:01:58. > :02:00.with that, except Derby City Council say they cannot afford this, that
:02:01. > :02:02.and the other and they are cutting funding to worthwhile charities
:02:03. > :02:09.while a jolly... Councillor Hussain paid for the
:02:10. > :02:16.delegation out of his own pocket. That is very generous...
:02:17. > :02:23.It wasn't a jolly. That is unfair to call it a jolly.
:02:24. > :02:27.Thank you for being my guests. Next week, a special Sunday politics on
:02:28. > :02:31.the crisis in our county councils ` thousands of jobs at risk, hundreds
:02:32. > :02:34.of millions of pounds to cut. We'll be speaking to the people who make
:02:35. > :02:37.those vital decisions on what jobs and what services have to go ` the
:02:38. > :02:40.leaders of Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, and Leicestershire
:02:41. > :02:45.county councils ` and we'll be hearing from the people affected.
:02:46. > :02:57.Londoners who otherwise may not have a voice. Both of you, thank you so
:02:58. > :03:02.much. Andrew, it is back to you Can David Cameron get a grip on the
:03:03. > :03:06.floods? Can UKIP push the Conservatives into third place in
:03:07. > :03:09.the Wythenshawe by-election on Thursday? Is the speaker in the
:03:10. > :03:17.House of Commons in danger of overheating? All questions over the
:03:18. > :03:23.weekend. Let's look at the politics of the flooding. Let me show you a
:03:24. > :03:30.clip from Eric Pickles, the Communities Secretary, earlier on
:03:31. > :03:37.the BBC this morning. We perhaps relied too much on the Environment
:03:38. > :03:41.Agency's advice. I apologise. I apologise unreservedly and I am
:03:42. > :03:46.really sorry we took the advice of what we thought we were doing was
:03:47. > :03:49.the best. The Environment Agency is being hung out to dry by the
:03:50. > :03:56.Government and the Government has taken over the running of the
:03:57. > :04:00.environmental mess in the Somerset Levels. It is turning into a serious
:04:01. > :04:04.crisis by the Government and even more so for the people who are
:04:05. > :04:11.dealing with the flooding. There is no doubt that what has been revealed
:04:12. > :04:16.is it is not just about what the Government did or did not do six
:04:17. > :04:21.months ago. What is being exposed is an entire culture within the
:04:22. > :04:24.Environment Agency, fuelled often by European directives about dredging
:04:25. > :04:30.and all manner of other things, a culture grew up in which plants were
:04:31. > :04:33.put ahead of people if you like All of that is collapsing in very
:04:34. > :04:39.difficult circumstances by the Government and it is difficult for
:04:40. > :04:42.them to manage. Chris Smith would save the Environment Agency is
:04:43. > :04:47.acting under a law set by this Government and previous governments
:04:48. > :04:51.and the first priority is the protection of life, second property
:04:52. > :04:57.and third agricultural land and he is saying we are working within that
:04:58. > :05:01.framework. It is an edifying spectacle, they are setting up Lord
:05:02. > :05:05.Smith to be the fall guy. His term of office comes at the end of the
:05:06. > :05:09.summer and they will find something new. But the point Lord Smith is
:05:10. > :05:14.making is that dredging is important and it was a mistake not to dredge,
:05:15. > :05:19.but it is a bigger picture than that. I am no expert, but you need a
:05:20. > :05:25.whole skill solution that is looking not just bad dredging, but at the
:05:26. > :05:30.whole catchment area looking at the production of maize. It is harvested
:05:31. > :05:35.in autumn and then the water runs off the topsoil. You see the
:05:36. > :05:40.pictures of the flooding, it is all topsoil flooding through those
:05:41. > :05:43.towns. What you have got to have in the uplands is some land that can
:05:44. > :05:48.absorb that water and there are really big questions about the way
:05:49. > :05:52.we carry out farming. Chris Smith was meant to appear on the Andrew
:05:53. > :05:57.Marr show this morning, but pulled back at the last minute. There must
:05:58. > :06:01.be doubts as to whether he can survive to the summer. Where is the
:06:02. > :06:08.chief executive of the Environment Agency? I agree with Nick that Chris
:06:09. > :06:12.Smith has been setup in this situation. David Cameron went to the
:06:13. > :06:19.Somerset Levels on Friday for about half an hour, in and out, with no
:06:20. > :06:25.angry people shouting at him. You to a farm. It is agreed he has had good
:06:26. > :06:31.crisis. But we are seen as being a London media class who does not
:06:32. > :06:35.understand the countryside. You can imagine David Cameron in a pair of
:06:36. > :06:41.wellies. If this was happening in Guildford, it would not have dragged
:06:42. > :06:45.on for so long. Looe it is interesting how they are saying the
:06:46. > :06:50.Environment Agency has put words in front of everything else. The
:06:51. > :06:54.great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria thinks people should be
:06:55. > :06:59.sacked at the whim. He is talking about how the Environment Agency
:07:00. > :07:04.spent ?31 million on a bird sanctuary. It turns out the bird
:07:05. > :07:10.sanctuary was an attempt to put up a flood defence system for a village
:07:11. > :07:13.which has worked. That village has been saved. They compensated some
:07:14. > :07:18.farmers for the farmland they were not going to be able to farm and put
:07:19. > :07:27.a flood defence system further back to protect this village and then
:07:28. > :07:30.they built a bird sanctuary. It was not ?31 million to create a bird
:07:31. > :07:36.sanctuary, it was to save a village and it worked. But in 2008 the
:07:37. > :07:41.Environment Agency was talking about dynamiting every pumping agency
:07:42. > :07:47.There was a metropolitan mindset on the part of that agency. If it does
:07:48. > :07:53.what Owen Paterson, who is now off in an eye operation, suggested a
:07:54. > :07:58.plan to fix this, they will find a lot of what they want or need to do
:07:59. > :08:05.will be in contravention of European directives. The Wythenshawe
:08:06. > :08:10.by-election. There is no question Labour is going to win, probably
:08:11. > :08:15.incredibly convincingly, one poll showing 60% plus of the vote. It
:08:16. > :08:20.would be surprising if Labour was in any threat up there. The issue is,
:08:21. > :08:27.does UKIP beat the Tories and if so, by how much? The latest poll was
:08:28. > :08:33.showing it in second place as nip and tuck, but the feeling I have is
:08:34. > :08:37.UKIP will do better. And they have got a great local candidate. The
:08:38. > :08:42.Tories have not parachuted somebody in and they have got a local man in
:08:43. > :08:46.and that will help them. We have all been waiting to see if the Tories
:08:47. > :08:54.lose their head, but they might go chicken earlier than that. Will UKIP
:08:55. > :09:00.come second? It looks like that A poll this week showed that Labour is
:09:01. > :09:05.way ahead and UKIP possibly second. But it is an important by-election
:09:06. > :09:09.for UKIP. If they do well in the European elections, they should
:09:10. > :09:12.still be on a roll. They did really well in by-elections last year. If
:09:13. > :09:18.they do not do well, is it because they are not on payroll? Or in
:09:19. > :09:24.Manchester they have a fantastic leader of the council? Will UKIP
:09:25. > :09:29.come a good second? I think they will and if they do not, it might
:09:30. > :09:35.suggest Nigel Farage is losing its slightly. One thing to look out for
:09:36. > :09:41.is how little Labour are attacking UKIP. Their election strategy relies
:09:42. > :09:46.a lot on UKIP taking Tory votes But it could also take Labour votes
:09:47. > :09:52.Particularly in the north and we shall see. The results will be out
:09:53. > :09:58.on Thursday night. The Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bird ,
:09:59. > :10:04.his interventions have become more frequent and something was strange.
:10:05. > :10:12.Have a look. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman. Order, the
:10:13. > :10:17.Government Chief Whip has absolutely no business whatsoever shouting from
:10:18. > :10:22.a sedentary position. Order, the honourable gentleman will remain in
:10:23. > :10:29.the chamber. If we could tackle this problem. I say to the honourable
:10:30. > :10:34.member for Bridgwater, be quiet if you cannot be quiet, get out, it is
:10:35. > :10:52.rude, stupid and pompous and it needs to stop. Michael Gove. Order.
:10:53. > :10:58.You really... Order. You are a very over excitable individual. You need
:10:59. > :11:03.to write out 1000 times, I will behave myself at Prime Minister 's
:11:04. > :11:09.questions. He was talking to the Education Secretary and it is not
:11:10. > :11:17.1000 lines, it is 100 lines, at least it was in my day. Is he
:11:18. > :11:20.beginning to make a fool of himself? There was only one over excitable
:11:21. > :11:24.person there and that was the speaker and he is losing the
:11:25. > :11:29.confidence of the Conservative MPs, but he never had that in the first
:11:30. > :11:33.place. But he is an incredibly reforming speaker. He has this
:11:34. > :11:40.strange idea that Parliament should hold the Government to account. It
:11:41. > :11:46.will never catch on. It means very frequently there are urgent
:11:47. > :11:49.questions. The other day he called a backbench amendment on the
:11:50. > :11:54.deportation of foreign criminals. He could have found a way not to call
:11:55. > :11:59.that. He is a real reformer and the executive do not like that. That is
:12:00. > :12:07.true and he has allowed Parliament to flourish which has given us room
:12:08. > :12:11.to breathe at a time of a coalition Government when Parliament has more
:12:12. > :12:17.power. That is all that enough to overcome these increasingly mannered
:12:18. > :12:24.and some of them may be preplanned interventions? The last one was last
:12:25. > :12:31.week, and last week the speaker had a rather stressful week with the
:12:32. > :12:37.tabloids. Something is clearly up. I think it is a real shame. I think
:12:38. > :12:42.many of us when he was elected did not think he would make a great
:12:43. > :12:47.speaker and there are people like Douglas Carswell and Tory rebels who
:12:48. > :12:51.have said he is a fantastic speaker. He has given the Commons room to
:12:52. > :12:56.breathe and he has called on ministers to be held to account when
:12:57. > :13:01.they do not want to be. What do you think? He is seen as anti-government
:13:02. > :13:08.and he is pro-backbencher and that is what people do not like. People
:13:09. > :13:14.like Douglas Carswell are actually very strongly in support of him We
:13:15. > :13:18.carry the interventions every week on Prime Minister 's questions and
:13:19. > :13:22.we see them every week and they are getting a bit more eccentric. If I
:13:23. > :13:29.was having to keep that under control, I would be driven slowly
:13:30. > :13:34.mad. But his job is easier than mine. But if you look at his
:13:35. > :13:42.deputy, Eleanor Laing, she is very robust, but she is calm. Chap who
:13:43. > :13:50.does the budget is excellent. We are on throughout the week at midday on
:13:51. > :13:53.BBC Two. We will be back next Sunday at 11. If it is Sunday, it is the
:13:54. > :14:01.Sunday Politics.