:00:37. > :00:43.Good morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It would be
:00:44. > :00:46.extremely difficult, if not impossible, for an independent
:00:47. > :00:50.Scotland to join the European Union, so says the President of the
:00:51. > :00:55.European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, in a significant
:00:56. > :00:59.development in the independence debate. It's our top story. He has
:01:00. > :01:08.the power to bring travel chaos to the nation's capital. Bob Crow
:01:09. > :01:12.joined us for the Sunday interview. Another by-election
:01:13. > :01:17.In the East Midlands, we're with the leaders of our county councils.
:01:18. > :01:18.They'll be telling us how they plan to cut hundreds of millions of
:01:19. > :01:20.pounds and shed thousands more jobs. look at his decisions and priorities
:01:21. > :01:40.with the help of his chief of staff. With me, the best and brightest
:01:41. > :01:43.political panel in the business The twits will be as incessant and
:01:44. > :01:47.probably as welcome as the recent rain. A significant new development
:01:48. > :01:48.in the debate over Scottish independence this morning, the
:01:49. > :01:55.President of the European Commission, President Jose Manuel
:01:56. > :01:58.Barroso, has confirmed what the Nationalists have long denied, that
:01:59. > :02:01.an independent Scotland would have to reply to join the European Union
:02:02. > :02:06.as a new member, that it would require the agreement of all 28
:02:07. > :02:10.member states and that would be in his words, extremely difficult, if
:02:11. > :02:14.not impossible. In case there is a new country, a new state coming out
:02:15. > :02:20.of a current member state, it will have to apply and, this is very
:02:21. > :02:24.important, the application to the union would have to be approved by
:02:25. > :02:31.all of the other member states. Countries like Spain, with the
:02:32. > :02:36.secessionist issues they have? I don't want to interfere in your
:02:37. > :02:39.democratic discussion here, but of course, it will be extremely
:02:40. > :02:44.difficult to get the approval of all of the other member states, to have
:02:45. > :02:52.a new member coming in from one member state. We have seen that that
:02:53. > :02:57.Spain has been opposing even the recognition, for instance, so it is
:02:58. > :02:59.a similar state. It is a new country. I believe it is great to be
:03:00. > :03:06.externally difficult, if not impossible. Well, he says he doesn't
:03:07. > :03:09.want to interfere, but he has just dropped a medium-sized explosive
:03:10. > :03:13.into the debate on Scottish independence? A huge story. Alex
:03:14. > :03:18.Salmond must be wondering what is going to go wrong next. His pitch to
:03:19. > :03:21.the Scottish people is based on two things, the currency union with
:03:22. > :03:28.England and the rest of the United Kingdom, which was blown apart last
:03:29. > :03:40.week, and this morning, his claims that Scotland would automatically
:03:41. > :03:46.get into the European Union has been dynamited. He's not only saying that
:03:47. > :03:53.they would have to apply, it is also saying it might be impossible to get
:03:54. > :03:57.the agreement of all 28 members to allow Scotland in. That's even more
:03:58. > :04:01.significant than the application? The reference to Spain is
:04:02. > :04:06.interesting, we talk about Catalan independence, an economic and active
:04:07. > :04:10.area that Spain does not want to be independent. About five other
:04:11. > :04:14.countries are blocking Kosovo's accession to the EU. There is no
:04:15. > :04:20.reason they would want to encourage the secessionist in their country by
:04:21. > :04:23.letting Scotland do the same. If Scotland does have to apply, and it
:04:24. > :04:30.does get in, it solves the currency problem because all new members have
:04:31. > :04:32.to accept the Euro? At the moment, the SNP are rejecting that quite
:04:33. > :04:38.strongly. What an interesting intervention today. However, I know
:04:39. > :04:44.that those arguing that Scotland should stay in the union are worried
:04:45. > :04:50.that the polls are tightening. A lot of these interventions, parents care
:04:51. > :04:56.arguments, they don't look like they are convincing the Scottish people.
:04:57. > :05:00.We haven't had any polls yet? We haven't, but we have since the
:05:01. > :05:05.currency debate was reignited in the last few weeks and it shows the
:05:06. > :05:07.polls tightening slightly. I think Alistair Darling's campaign would
:05:08. > :05:11.prefer to be much further ahead at the stage. They are worried that
:05:12. > :05:15.these technical commandments are not having much sway. Are the polls
:05:16. > :05:22.tightening slightly? They could be within the statistical margin for
:05:23. > :05:26.error. They are, but not much. Alex Salmond's main page is one of
:05:27. > :05:29.reassurance. He wants to say you can vote for independence, a pound in
:05:30. > :05:33.the pocket will be the same as before and you will still be a
:05:34. > :05:38.member of the European Union. In the last three or four matter days, both
:05:39. > :05:45.of those claims have been blown apart. Angus MacNeil has already
:05:46. > :05:48.told BBC Radio 5 Live that the remarks are nonsense and he is
:05:49. > :05:53.playing more politics. We hope to speak to the SNP's finance minister,
:05:54. > :05:57.John Swinney, a little bit later in the programme. It is not just the
:05:58. > :06:00.constant rain that London commuters have had to deal with. There was
:06:01. > :06:05.also a strike on the tube that disrupted the travel of millions. A
:06:06. > :06:08.second stoppage was on the cards, but it was called off at the last
:06:09. > :06:12.minute. The leader of the biggest
:06:13. > :06:18.underground workers union, the RMT, is Bob Crow, who has led his members
:06:19. > :06:22.into 24 strikes on the tube since 2005, as well as disputes on the
:06:23. > :06:27.national rail network. Under his leadership, the union's membership
:06:28. > :06:30.has grown from 57,000 in 2002 to more than 80,000, at a time when
:06:31. > :06:35.union membership overall has been shrinking. The current dispute has
:06:36. > :06:39.seen Bob Crow squaring up to Boris Johnson over the mayor's plans to
:06:40. > :06:42.close tube station ticket offices. The 48-hour stoppage at the
:06:43. > :06:47.beginning of this month is estimated to have cost the London economy ?100
:06:48. > :06:52.million. The two sides have agreed a truce, for now, but Mr Crow has
:06:53. > :06:56.threatened further action if the mayor imposes his changes.
:06:57. > :07:05.Bob Crow joins me now for the Sunday interview.
:07:06. > :07:12.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. You have suspended the strike for the
:07:13. > :07:17.moment. What will it take to call it off entirely? Want to know first of
:07:18. > :07:19.all wider booking office has to close. The Mayor of London made it
:07:20. > :07:23.quite clear in his election programme that the booking offices
:07:24. > :07:27.would remain open. It was strange, really, because Ken Livingstone
:07:28. > :07:30.wanted to close them down and the mayor thought it was popular to keep
:07:31. > :07:36.them open and put in his campaign to keep them open. However, we have not
:07:37. > :07:40.the news figures. We are being told only 3% of people use the booking
:07:41. > :07:43.offices. That's not true. In research done, if somebody does to a
:07:44. > :07:46.booking office with somebody sitting there and asks for a ticket of less
:07:47. > :07:53.than ?5, they are not allowed to sell them a ticket, it is madness.
:07:54. > :07:58.Do you use the ticket office? When it is open, yes. You said to ITV
:07:59. > :08:03.that he didn't. I don't know what I said to ITV, I don't know what time
:08:04. > :08:06.people use them, sometimes they are open and sometimes they are closed.
:08:07. > :08:10.People make out that these ticket office staff are people that sit
:08:11. > :08:14.behind barriers like a newsagent. I'm not knocking a newsagent,
:08:15. > :08:19.however, these people were the same people treated like Lions when they
:08:20. > :08:25.were helping people named in the terrorist incidents, taking them out
:08:26. > :08:28.of the panels. Suddenly they are lazy people that sit in ticket
:08:29. > :08:33.offices. My understanding is that the people would come from behind
:08:34. > :08:37.and be out and about now. It is the management wants to run the
:08:38. > :08:42.underground without ticket offices, isn't that their prerogative? They
:08:43. > :08:49.are paid to manage, not you, not your members, they are the managers?
:08:50. > :08:51.Managers are there to manage, and we want good managers. But we've got
:08:52. > :08:54.some really bad managers that are not looking at the railway as a
:08:55. > :08:57.whole. This is a successful industry, not an industry in
:08:58. > :09:01.decline, one of the most successful in Britain. It is moving 3.4 million
:09:02. > :09:06.people a day. All of the forecast is or it will move to 3.6 million per
:09:07. > :09:10.day. The mayor wants to run services on a Friday and Saturday night. We
:09:11. > :09:13.are not opposed to that. However, it does not make sense that if more
:09:14. > :09:18.people are going to be using the tube on Friday and Saturday, coming
:09:19. > :09:21.home at two o'clock three o'clock in the morning, a lot of people
:09:22. > :09:28.drinking, a lot of people not dragging, why take 1000 people of
:09:29. > :09:32.the network that come to the aid of people that are looking to people? I
:09:33. > :09:40.want to show you this picture. This is you. Taking a break in Brazil, I
:09:41. > :09:43.think it is. I was trying to copy you. You deserve this break because
:09:44. > :09:49.you have done a fantastic job for your members. Yes, I don't see what
:09:50. > :09:52.that has got to do with it. Let s get every editor of the daily
:09:53. > :09:56.newspapers and see where they go on their holidays, I would like to
:09:57. > :10:01.know. What I choose to do... I'm not attacking you for doing that...
:10:02. > :10:04.You've got a picture up there, I've got to say, why don't they go and
:10:05. > :10:09.follow Boris Johnson when he was away on holiday, when the riots were
:10:10. > :10:12.taking place in London, and he refused to come back? Why don't they
:10:13. > :10:15.go and view the editors of newspapers, where they go on
:10:16. > :10:19.holiday? Why do they look at you when you go on holiday? They
:10:20. > :10:26.sometimes do, actually. The basic pay of a tube driver will soon be
:10:27. > :10:31.?52,000. Ticket office workers are already earning over ?35,000. Never
:10:32. > :10:34.mind a holiday on Copacabana beach, or membership by your house for what
:10:35. > :10:38.you have done for them? When you look at the papers this morning I
:10:39. > :10:42.see that Wayne Rooney is going to get a ?70 million deal over the next
:10:43. > :10:50.four deals. I see NHS doctors are getting ?3000 a shift. I see a lot
:10:51. > :10:54.of people that do a lot of people that, in my opinion, don't do
:10:55. > :10:57.anything for society. The top paid people in this country should be
:10:58. > :11:01.doctors and nurses. Unfortunately, we live in a jungle. If you are not
:11:02. > :11:05.strong, the bosses will walk all over you. The reason why we got good
:11:06. > :11:10.terms and conditions is because we fought for them. The reality is all
:11:11. > :11:14.of these three political parties, liberals, Tories and Labour, they
:11:15. > :11:18.have all put no programme that to defend working people. So we have to
:11:19. > :11:21.do it on our own. And that is why you have done such a great job for
:11:22. > :11:24.your members and why union membership has been rising, people
:11:25. > :11:29.want to be part of a successful operation. But it has come at a cost
:11:30. > :11:35.for less well-paid workers, who travel on the cheap? If everyone
:11:36. > :11:38.believes if London Underground tube workers take a pay freeze they are
:11:39. > :11:41.going to redistribute the money to the rest of the workers that work on
:11:42. > :11:46.the cheap... But the people that travel on the tube, let's look at
:11:47. > :11:51.some of them, they are the ones that suffer from your strike action. The
:11:52. > :11:56.starting salary of a cheap driver now, ?48,000. The starting salary
:11:57. > :12:02.for a nurses only ?26,000, ?22, 00 for a young policeman, ?27,000 for a
:12:03. > :12:09.teacher starting out. As your members have spread, they have had
:12:10. > :12:16.to live through 24 strikes in 1 years to push up your members
:12:17. > :12:22.wages. It's I'm all right Jack? The have put a pay freeze on by
:12:23. > :12:25.conservatives and liberals. The police constables, so have the
:12:26. > :12:30.teachers. We have had the ability to go and fight. The reality is, at the
:12:31. > :12:35.end of the day, as I have said before, no one is going to put up
:12:36. > :12:39.the cause for workers. Not one single party in parliament are
:12:40. > :12:42.fighting the cause for workers. They all support privatisation, they all
:12:43. > :12:46.support keeping the anti-trade union laws, they all support illegal wars
:12:47. > :12:51.around the world. Unless they have a fighting trade union, our members
:12:52. > :12:55.pay would be as low as some others. You said we could not care less if
:12:56. > :12:59.we have 1 million strikes. But these people, the lower paid people who
:13:00. > :13:05.travel on the tube, who need it as an essential service, they care Of
:13:06. > :13:09.course they care, I've said before that I apologise to the troubling
:13:10. > :13:17.public for the dispute that took place. 24 strikes in 13 years? It
:13:18. > :13:21.two to tango. If the boy never imposed terms and conditions on us
:13:22. > :13:25.against our will... But you've got great terms and conditions! But it's
:13:26. > :13:31.a constant battle, they are trying to change them. Drivers are having
:13:32. > :13:36.their pay going up to ?50,000. You said they are making it worse, it is
:13:37. > :13:39.going up. They are trying to make things worse for workers. You said
:13:40. > :13:44.at the start of the interview that the tube strike cost ?100 million in
:13:45. > :13:48.two days. It means that when members go to work for two days it is worth
:13:49. > :13:53.?100 million. That demonstrates what they are worth. Only a fighting
:13:54. > :13:57.trade union can defend workers out there. Your members should enjoy
:13:58. > :14:02.what you have got for them, because it's not going to last, is it?
:14:03. > :14:07.Technology will change the whole way your business operates. As Karl Marx
:14:08. > :14:11.says, you said I was a mixture of Karl Marx, Only Fools And Horses and
:14:12. > :14:15.the Sopranos. I thought that was quite funny... The Karl Marx part of
:14:16. > :14:23.it, the only thing that is constant is change. We have been crying out
:14:24. > :14:27.for new technology. But for who To put people on the dole, so they
:14:28. > :14:31.can't do anything and do anything for society, or technology so
:14:32. > :14:36.everybody benefits, lower fares better service and better terms and
:14:37. > :14:38.conditions for the workers. But you have made Labour so expensive on the
:14:39. > :14:43.underground that management now has a huge incentive to substitute
:14:44. > :14:47.technology for Labour. And that s what it's going to do, it is closing
:14:48. > :14:53.the ticket offices and very soon, starting in 2016, the driverless
:14:54. > :15:01.trains coming. What I am saying is that your members should enjoy this
:15:02. > :15:12.because it's not going to last. Driverless trains are not coming
:15:13. > :15:17.in, it is not safe. We have them in Nuremberg, Shanghai, Sao Paulo, it
:15:18. > :15:23.is not safe? These are new lines that have been built so that when it
:15:24. > :15:27.breaks down, people can get out of the tunnel. Would you want to be
:15:28. > :15:34.stuck on a summers day on the Northern line? A pregnant woman who
:15:35. > :15:39.cannot get off the train? Absolute panic that takes place, the reality
:15:40. > :15:44.is simple, it is a nonsense. It s not going to happen because it is a
:15:45. > :15:53.Victorian network. On Docklands railway for example it is driverless
:15:54. > :15:59.but when the train breaks down, it is above ground on a very small
:16:00. > :16:05.section. All of these other cities managed to have it. You remind me
:16:06. > :16:20.about Henry Ford in the 1930s when he said, you see that robot over
:16:21. > :16:25.their, he cannot buy a car. All sorts of new jobs are being created
:16:26. > :16:31.all the time in other areas. Come back to the ticket offices, not many
:16:32. > :16:36.people use the ticket offices any more, what is wrong with getting the
:16:37. > :16:40.stuff out of the ticket office on to the concourses, meeting and
:16:41. > :16:45.greeting, helping disabled people and tourists and making it a better
:16:46. > :16:51.service? They can do more on the concourse than they can in the
:16:52. > :16:58.ticket office. Andrew, he took the decision to close down every single
:16:59. > :17:05.ticket office. You cannot compare for example Chesham with the likes
:17:06. > :17:11.of Heathrow. Are you telling me people are going to be on a long
:17:12. > :17:16.transatlantic flight, arrived at Heathrow and cannot get a ticket.
:17:17. > :17:22.The stuff will be redeployed on the concourse. The simple problem is
:17:23. > :17:29.that it is not just about the booking office, it is about people
:17:30. > :17:33.having a visual. If you are partially sighted, you cannot use
:17:34. > :17:41.the machines. If British is not your first language, you cannot use the
:17:42. > :17:50.offices. How many languages do your members speak? I don't know, I
:17:51. > :17:56.struggle with English. The machines can speak many different languages.
:17:57. > :18:03.They are dehumanising things. You phone the bank, all you hear is
:18:04. > :18:07.press one for this, two for that. People want to hear it human being
:18:08. > :18:14.and what makes the London Underground so precious is that
:18:15. > :18:19.people want to see people. Having well-dressed, motivated people out
:18:20. > :18:23.on the concourse, what part of that don't you like? They will be on the
:18:24. > :18:28.concourse and they will have machines. The fact is that London
:18:29. > :18:31.Underground did a risk assessment of closing down their booking offices
:18:32. > :18:35.and it is clear that if you are disabled, if you are partially
:18:36. > :18:42.sighted, London Underground becomes more dangerous. You are posing the
:18:43. > :18:51.closing of ticket offices, opposing driverless trains, when you opposed
:18:52. > :19:05.to the Oyster card when it came in? No, Oyster cards, it is how you deal
:19:06. > :19:10.with it. It is not the only way They should supplement the staff and
:19:11. > :19:17.the job. If more people used the London Underground system, you want
:19:18. > :19:24.more staff to deal with them. Let's look at your mandate to strike. Of
:19:25. > :19:33.your members who work on the Tube, only 40% bothered to vote. Only 30%
:19:34. > :19:38.voted for the strike, so 70% actually didn't vote to strike of
:19:39. > :19:44.your members, but the strike went ahead. Isn't it right to have a
:19:45. > :19:49.higher threshold before you can cause this disruption? It would be
:19:50. > :19:55.lovely if everyone voted but the Tories took that away. We used to
:19:56. > :20:00.have ballots at the workplace. What I'm trying to say to you is that we
:20:01. > :20:07.used to have a ballot box at the workplace and the turnouts were
:20:08. > :20:13.higher. The Tories believe that if they can have a secret ballot where
:20:14. > :20:18.ballot papers went to people's home addresses, where they could be
:20:19. > :20:22.persuaded by the bosses, votes would be different. Let's go back to the
:20:23. > :20:30.workplace ballot because you get a bigger turnout. Will the RMT
:20:31. > :20:34.re-affiliate to the Labour Party? I have no intention to. We got
:20:35. > :20:43.expelled from the Labour Party. But you will give some money to the
:20:44. > :20:52.Labour councils? Those that support our basic policies get money, we
:20:53. > :20:57.don't give money directly to MPs, we give it to constituencies. Are you
:20:58. > :21:07.going to stand for re-election in 2016? I might do, I might not. You
:21:08. > :21:15.haven't decided yet? No, but more than likely I will do. And will you
:21:16. > :21:21.stand again as an anti-EU candidate? Yes, I am standing in London, and
:21:22. > :21:26.right across, completely different to UKIP's policies. They are
:21:27. > :21:33.anti-European, they believe all of the faults of Europe are down to the
:21:34. > :21:39.immigrants. We are anti-European Union. If London Underground is as
:21:40. > :21:46.badly run as you think, why don t you run for mayor? That is down the
:21:47. > :21:51.road, it has not come up yet. I m not ruling anything out. I'm not
:21:52. > :21:57.ruling out getting your job on the Sunday Politics. You have got to
:21:58. > :22:03.retire as well, you have got to put your feet up. I will get you to
:22:04. > :22:09.renegotiate my package. Shall we go on strike first? If I could have
:22:10. > :22:20.your wages, I would have two trips to Rio every year. Good luck. And if
:22:21. > :22:27.you're in the London region they'll have more on the Tube strike later
:22:28. > :22:33.in the programme. Let's get back to those comments from Jose Manuel
:22:34. > :22:39.Barroso, and reaction to these comments from John Swinney. Scottish
:22:40. > :22:45.Nationalists denied all along you would have to reapply, we have now
:22:46. > :22:51.heard it without any caveats, you will and you might not get in. I
:22:52. > :22:59.think Jose Manuel Barroso's comments were preposterous this morning. He
:23:00. > :23:05.compared the situation to the one in Kosovo. Britain is the member,
:23:06. > :23:11.Scotland is not the member. If you go independent, you will have to
:23:12. > :23:15.reapply, he says. All of the arrangements we have in place are
:23:16. > :23:19.compatible with the workings of the European Union because we have been
:23:20. > :23:25.part of it for 40 years. The propositions we put forward work
:23:26. > :23:29.about essentially negotiating the continuity of Scotland's membership
:23:30. > :23:35.of the European Union and that position has now been explained and
:23:36. > :23:48.debated and discussed and reinforced by comments made by experts. We are
:23:49. > :23:51.talking about the president of the European commission and we have
:23:52. > :23:56.spoken to him since he gave that interview on the BBC this morning,
:23:57. > :24:05.it was an intervention that he made that he wanted to lay out that
:24:06. > :24:13.Scotland should be in no doubt that if they vote for independence they
:24:14. > :24:17.will have to apply for European membership and they may not get it
:24:18. > :24:22.if it is vetoed by other members. What he didn't say is that no state
:24:23. > :24:28.of the European Union have indicated they would veto Scottish
:24:29. > :24:33.membership. The Spanish foreign minister has. They have said that if
:24:34. > :24:37.there is an agreed process within the UK that Scotland becomes an
:24:38. > :24:42.independent country, then Spain has got nothing to say about the issue.
:24:43. > :24:47.That indicates to me clearly that the Spanish government will have no
:24:48. > :24:50.stance to take on the Scottish membership of the European Union
:24:51. > :24:55.because it is important that Scotland is already part of the
:24:56. > :25:01.European Union, our laws are compatible with the European Union
:25:02. > :25:05.and we play our part. The only threat to Scotland's participation
:25:06. > :25:15.in the European Union is the potential in/out referendum that
:25:16. > :25:21.David Cameron wants to have in 017. It has not been a great week for
:25:22. > :25:27.you, has it? Everything you seem to want, the monetary union, that has
:25:28. > :25:31.been blown out of the water by the Westminster parties, now Jose Manuel
:25:32. > :25:38.Barroso has said you will have to reapply to the European Union, it
:25:39. > :25:44.has not been a good week. You will follow the debate closely, and the
:25:45. > :25:47.Sunday newspapers are full about the backlash taking place within
:25:48. > :25:56.Scotland at the bullying remarks of the Chancellor and his cohorts. Is
:25:57. > :26:00.Jose Manuel Barroso a bully is well now? He is making an indirect
:26:01. > :26:07.comparison between Scotland and Kosovo. If you vote for independence
:26:08. > :26:14.and you do have two apply again to join, if you do get in it solves
:26:15. > :26:20.your currency problem because you will have to accept the euro. We
:26:21. > :26:28.have set out an option on the currency arrangements which would be
:26:29. > :26:35.to establish the currency union You would have to adopt the euro. That's
:26:36. > :26:39.not rate because you have to be part of the exchange-rate mechanism for
:26:40. > :26:42.two years before you can apply for membership and an independent
:26:43. > :26:48.Scotland has no intention of signing up to the exchange rate mechanism or
:26:49. > :26:51.the single currency. We are concentrating on setting out our
:26:52. > :26:58.arguments for maintaining the pound sterling, which is in the interests
:26:59. > :27:04.of Scotland and the UK. Thank you for joining us this morning.
:27:05. > :27:07.This week's least surprising news was that Labour won the safe seat of
:27:08. > :27:10.Wythenshawe and Sale East in a by-election, following the death of
:27:11. > :27:13.the MP Paul Goggins. With the result so predictable, all eyes were on
:27:14. > :27:17.whether this would be the sixth time this parliament that UKIP would come
:27:18. > :27:20.second. And whether they'd chip away at Labour's vote, not just the
:27:21. > :27:31.Tories and the Lib Dems. Adam stayed up all night to find out what it all
:27:32. > :27:41.meant. Forget the hype. Forget the theorising. And yes - everyone has a
:27:42. > :27:48.theory. UKIP are learning from us. What have they picked up from you?
:27:49. > :27:51.To be silly. Thanks to this week's by-election we've got some hard
:27:52. > :27:54.evidence in paper form that helps answer the question: How are UKIP
:27:55. > :28:04.doing? Turns out the answer is well, but not well enough to beat Labour.
:28:05. > :28:10.I'm therefore claim -- declare that Mike Cane is elected. So UKIP have
:28:11. > :28:13.come second and increased their share of the vote quite
:28:14. > :28:15.significantly. But their performance isn't as good as their performances
:28:16. > :28:18.in some of the other by-elections this parliament. Just don't suggest
:28:19. > :28:29.to them that their bandwagon has ground to a halt. A week ago you'd
:28:30. > :28:38.told me you were going to win, what happened? No, I didn't, I said I
:28:39. > :28:42.wanted to win. My mistake. How are you feeling? It is a Labour
:28:43. > :28:49.stronghold, we always knew it was going to be a fight. Labour were
:28:50. > :28:53.running scared of letting us present our arguments. UKIP's campaign in
:28:54. > :28:56.Wythenshawe didn't point to the right but to the left, with leaflets
:28:57. > :29:00.that branded Labour as a party of millionaires who didn't care about
:29:01. > :29:03.the working class. It wasn't a winning strategy but it did help
:29:04. > :29:08.them beat the Tories who focused on dog mess and potholes instead.
:29:09. > :29:14.Professional UKIP-watcher Rob Ford from Manchester Uni thinks they
:29:15. > :29:17.could be on the right track. He s analysed the views of 5,000 UKIP
:29:18. > :29:29.voters for a new book, which could confound the received wisdom about
:29:30. > :29:36.the party. The common media image of the typical UKIP voter is a ruddy
:29:37. > :29:41.faced golf club and -- member from the south-east of the UK and many
:29:42. > :29:45.UKIP activists do resemble that stereotype to some extent, they do
:29:46. > :29:50.pick up a lot of activists from the Conservative party, but UKIP voters
:29:51. > :29:56.are older, more working class, more likely to live in Northern, urban
:29:57. > :30:00.areas, and they are much more anti-system than anti-EU. And
:30:01. > :30:03.they're precisely the voters that the Tory MP David Mowat needs if
:30:04. > :30:16.he's to hold on to his narrow majority in the constituency just
:30:17. > :30:20.down the road. Do you have a UKIP strategy in your seat? Our UKIP
:30:21. > :30:23.strategy is to point out that if they want a referendum on if they
:30:24. > :30:26.want to be in the EU or not, there is one way to get it, for the
:30:27. > :30:32.Conservatives to form their next government and for me to be their
:30:33. > :30:39.MP. UKIP could accidentally destroy what they want? I'm not sure it will
:30:40. > :30:42.be accidental. People need to realise that if Ed Miliband is the
:30:43. > :30:47.Prime Minister, there will be no referendum on the EU and UKIP may
:30:48. > :30:55.have made their point but they would not have got their referendum. Over
:30:56. > :31:02.at UKIP local HQ, it is tidying up time. Not helping, Nigel? I had
:31:03. > :31:06.major surgery on the 19th of November and I am still weak as a
:31:07. > :31:10.kitten. I can barely lift a pint with my right hand, it is as serious
:31:11. > :31:15.as that. The answer is, Carreon chaps, you're all doing a very good
:31:16. > :31:19.job. There will be carrying on to the European elections in May, which
:31:20. > :31:25.will provide more evidence of if the UKIP and wagon is powering on or if
:31:26. > :31:30.it is just parked. -- bandwagon With me now is the Conservative MEP
:31:31. > :31:34.Vicky fraud and UKIP director of medication is Patrick O'Flynn. He
:31:35. > :31:37.will also be a candidate in the upcoming European elections. You
:31:38. > :31:44.came second in Manchester, but it was not a close second. -- Vicky
:31:45. > :31:49.Ford. There is nothing that is a game changer? I think it is very
:31:50. > :31:53.unusual for any insurgent party like the liberals used to be, to
:31:54. > :32:03.actually win a safe seat of the opposition. Those shocks, going back
:32:04. > :32:09.to Walkington etc, it tended to be winning seats against an unpopular
:32:10. > :32:12.government. We did extraordinarily well in Wythenshawe. Labour
:32:13. > :32:15.compressed the campaign down to the shortest possible time and maxed out
:32:16. > :32:19.the postal vote. Whatever we think about Labour, they do have an
:32:20. > :32:25.efficient machine, lots of union activists signed a lot of people
:32:26. > :32:29.with a lot of know-how. It pushed you into third place and showed the
:32:30. > :32:33.increasing irrelevance of the Tories in the North? Tory minded voters in
:32:34. > :32:38.the North Sea more inclined to vote for UKIP than you? I think
:32:39. > :32:43.by-elections are by-elections. The same day, we took a seat from Labour
:32:44. > :32:48.in Birmingham. Well, that was a by-election as well, so we should
:32:49. > :32:52.discount that as well. You should learn from them, and we need to look
:32:53. > :32:56.forward to the elections in 201 . That is in May this year, when we
:32:57. > :33:04.have a chance to really grab this change in Europe, grab this change
:33:05. > :33:07.that we were talking about just now. You don't worry, particularly in the
:33:08. > :33:12.north, if people want to vote against Labour your supporters are
:33:13. > :33:16.drifting to UKIP? I think people vote UKIP in a European election and
:33:17. > :33:20.they have done that for many years. They vote that because they want
:33:21. > :33:25.change. The problem is, Patrick s party have had MEPs since 1999 and
:33:26. > :33:30.they cannot deliver that change They can't because they don't have
:33:31. > :33:35.seats in Westminster. It was on that video, the only way we are going to
:33:36. > :33:38.get the change we want in Europe is to have that referendum and have the
:33:39. > :33:48.renegotiation, and that means vote Tory. What do you say to that? Let's
:33:49. > :33:53.get real, the Conservative Party has not won a Parliamentary majority in
:33:54. > :33:57.22 years. But the only way you will get a referendum, if that is what
:33:58. > :34:01.motivates you, and with UKIP it is, the only way it will be a referendum
:34:02. > :34:04.on Europe in this country as if there is a majority Conservative
:34:05. > :34:08.government at the next election And you could well stop that from
:34:09. > :34:13.happening? I don't accept that. I believe, just as we forced David
:34:14. > :34:16.Cameron and into a referendum pledge he explicitly ruled out making
:34:17. > :34:20.before through our success, and I was there in PMQs, when his MPs
:34:21. > :34:24.asked him and he said it would not be in the national interest because
:34:25. > :34:28.he didn't want to leave, our electoral success forced that
:34:29. > :34:30.pledge. I believe by winning the European action this May we can
:34:31. > :34:35.force Ed Miliband, again, against his will, to match that pledge.
:34:36. > :34:41.Then, whatever formulation varies in the next Parliament, we will get a
:34:42. > :34:45.referendum. Labour MPs have just had the chance to say we want a
:34:46. > :34:50.referendum. They refused to do it. The only way you are going to get a
:34:51. > :34:54.renegotiation, a change in our relationship with Europe and an in
:34:55. > :34:57.or out referendum is to have a Conservative Government. Please
:34:58. > :35:04.UKIP, stop pretending that you can deliver, because you don't deliver
:35:05. > :35:07.and you don't... We have delivered, we forced David Cameron to give a
:35:08. > :35:13.pledge for a referendum he didn't want to make. We will know if you
:35:14. > :35:16.are right about Ed Miliband or not, you will have to tell us going into
:35:17. > :35:22.the campaign. If you are wrong, what do you do then? There are still
:35:23. > :35:26.loads of reasons for people to vote UKIP. A referendum is one thing.
:35:27. > :35:32.David Cameron, and I asked him directly, thermally wants to stay
:35:33. > :35:38.in. He wants to be the Edward Heath of the 21st century. The Tories are
:35:39. > :35:43.going to say, vote UKIP, get Ed Miliband. What would you say to
:35:44. > :35:45.that? I would say we have probably maxed out the Tory vote we are going
:35:46. > :35:49.to get because David Cameron has been incredibly helpful in sending
:35:50. > :35:56.them in our direction. Our potential for growth now, would we are
:35:57. > :36:00.concentrating on, his those disenchanted former Labour voters
:36:01. > :36:06.and more and more of them are coming towards us on things like
:36:07. > :36:09.immigration and law and order. We want to renegotiate our relationship
:36:10. > :36:12.with Europe. We need to have people who are going to turn up to
:36:13. > :36:16.negotiate with people like Barroso. That meant a Prime Minister that is
:36:17. > :36:26.not Ed Miliband but David Cameron. UKIP MEPs do not turn up to
:36:27. > :36:31.defenders. If President Hollande is as good as his word and says there
:36:32. > :36:35.will be no substantial renegotiation, certainly no treaty
:36:36. > :36:41.change this side of 2017 when he is up for the election, what do you do
:36:42. > :36:46.then? He is a French Socialist Prime Minister, I don't expect him to
:36:47. > :36:53.agree. But you can't bring anything of substance back with these
:36:54. > :37:00.negotiations. Then people will vote to leave. The Prime Minister has
:37:01. > :37:04.been very clear that British public opinion is on a knife edge and
:37:05. > :37:09.unless we get what we want from a renegotiation, we will leave. You
:37:10. > :37:13.would vote to leave? Let's see what we get with the deal on the table in
:37:14. > :37:18.2017. If the status quo was what we have today, I would vote to leave.
:37:19. > :37:22.But I want to renegotiate. We will have to move on. For those viewers
:37:23. > :37:26.lucky enough to live in the East of have to move on. For those viewers
:37:27. > :37:30.England, they will be seeing more of Patrick in a moment. You are
:37:31. > :37:34.watching Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be
:37:35. > :37:42.talking about, what else, the weather, with
:37:43. > :37:48.In the East Midlands, we're out on the road and taking a closer look at
:37:49. > :37:51.the crisis facing our county councils. And with me, the leaders
:37:52. > :38:00.of Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and Leicestershire. The people taking
:38:01. > :38:06.the decisions that affect us all. Without it, I think I would be on
:38:07. > :38:09.the street. With hundreds of millions of pounds to cut and
:38:10. > :38:17.thousands of jobs to shed, where will the axe fall next? A recent
:38:18. > :38:22.report showed that this brings in for the local economy something in
:38:23. > :38:22.the region of ?4.4 million. That would 0
:38:23. > :38:22.the region of ?4.4 million. That would be 0
:38:23. > :38:25.the region of ?4.4 million. That would be lost.
:38:26. > :38:27.Hello, I'm Marie Ashby. This is the debating chamber at
:38:28. > :38:30.Nottinghamshire's County Hall, where next week they'll be thrashing out
:38:31. > :38:35.the final version of their budget. And between them, all three leaders
:38:36. > :38:35.face some tough decisions. Nick Rushton, 0
:38:36. > :38:37.face some tough decisions. Nick Rushton, the leader of
:38:38. > :38:41.Leicestershire County Council, held on for the Conservatives at the
:38:42. > :38:45.local elections last May, but that hasn't saved him from facing big
:38:46. > :38:49.cuts to his budget. Anne Western, Labour leader of Derbyshire County
:38:50. > :38:50.Council, came to power in those same elections. 0 0
:38:51. > :38:53.Council, came to power in those same elections. And Alan Rhodes, Labour
:38:54. > :38:56.leader of Nottinghamshire County Council, who also swept into power
:38:57. > :39:03.last year and now faces a huge hole in his budget. We'll hear from them
:39:04. > :39:03.in a moment, but first, our political 0
:39:04. > :39:03.in a moment, but first, our political editor 0
:39:04. > :39:06.in a moment, but first, our political editor John Hess has been
:39:07. > :39:18.taking a look at the issues facing our councils in the East Midlands.
:39:19. > :39:23.It is from this spot near Loughborough that you get a
:39:24. > :39:27.fantastic view of the whole of the East Midlands, and when it comes the
:39:28. > :39:31.County Council budget pressures, if you want the big picture, it is not
:39:32. > :39:39.a bad place. Take Derbyshire. It is facing budget cuts of ?157 million.
:39:40. > :39:46.That is the equivalent of 1600 job losses. In Nottinghamshire, the cuts
:39:47. > :39:50.total is ?154 million, and 750 jobs. Since the age of posterity, it
:39:51. > :39:55.has lost a quarter of its workforce. In Leicestershire, the
:39:56. > :40:01.cuts will be around ?110 million, that is the equivalent of 700 posts.
:40:02. > :40:06.It has already had to lose seven `` 750 jobs. But do we have to take a
:40:07. > :40:14.new look at how our public services are provided? I am walking in the
:40:15. > :40:21.park with David Parsons. There is not much he doesn't know about local
:40:22. > :40:26.command. We are here because the park is not run by the council, but
:40:27. > :40:26.as a charitable trust. Could it be a model 0
:40:27. > :40:31.as a charitable trust. Could it be a model for cash`strapped councils to
:40:32. > :40:35.follow? Local people are on the board. I think people ought to look
:40:36. > :40:44.at places like this, to see how services can be run. The last thing
:40:45. > :40:46.I want to hear is about local Romanby organisation, let's have
:40:47. > :40:52.services which are responsive to people. I'd Mac welcome to the new
:40:53. > :40:56.one`stop shop for public services in Hinckley. Here, the council shares
:40:57. > :41:01.premises with other service providers. Is this the way ahead? We
:41:02. > :41:04.share services with neighbouring district councils, we work across
:41:05. > :41:09.the county border with our colleagues in Warwickshire on skills
:41:10. > :41:12.and economic regeneration delivery. We have moved into new council
:41:13. > :41:16.offices, which we share with the County Council and the job centre,
:41:17. > :41:19.which saves the public sector well over 200,000 fans a year. Back to
:41:20. > :41:20.Beacon Hill, and the sky 0 over 200,000 fans a year. Back to
:41:21. > :41:24.Beacon Hill, and the sky is overcast, but what is the
:41:25. > :41:29.Government's blue sky thinking on future funding of local services?
:41:30. > :41:31.Local authorities are working together in partnership across the
:41:32. > :41:34.public sector, potentially ?20 billion of services. Local
:41:35. > :41:36.government 0 billion of services. Local
:41:37. > :41:46.government as a whole will be spending 107 this year. `` ?117
:41:47. > :41:50.billion. And how about this for efficiency saving? Merge the
:41:51. > :41:56.district cancels into one. Perhaps an alternative is to look at unitary
:41:57. > :42:04.districts. I think that will be far better and more in touch with the
:42:05. > :42:09.people. What will that do to the average person on the street? I do
:42:10. > :42:14.believe you need to cut the number of councillors. All the agencies
:42:15. > :42:19.need to cooperate. But getting that cooperation we require a brisk walk
:42:20. > :42:25.in the park, just to clear the head and think afresh.
:42:26. > :42:30.Let's put these idea to the council leaders. And in the list says you
:42:31. > :42:35.have reserves to tap into. I suppose you could even sell this building.
:42:36. > :42:39.We could, of course. At in this economic honour, I am not sure
:42:40. > :42:41.whether people would pay it. Brandon Lewis made a point about reserves.
:42:42. > :42:45.We can only spend 0 Lewis made a point about reserves.
:42:46. > :42:49.We can only spend reserves once. We have spent reserves and continue to
:42:50. > :42:57.do so. We reduced our reserve skins `` considerably, by half by this
:42:58. > :43:04.time next year. We use them for `` risible by giving... Time for
:43:05. > :43:08.radical change is what the report seemed to be saying. Site it seemed
:43:09. > :43:14.to suggest we could go on doing things exactly as we have done in
:43:15. > :43:17.the past, that has gone. I am sure all of us are licking at different
:43:18. > :43:22.ways we can innovate, and covered duplication. We are working closely
:43:23. > :43:22.with the NHS in Derbyshire to see how we can 0
:43:23. > :43:26.with the NHS in Derbyshire to see how we can integrate health and
:43:27. > :43:29.social care. We know there is duplication, people get visited by
:43:30. > :43:32.different people from different organisations, going through
:43:33. > :43:35.different assessments. It is not very efficient. But what we know is,
:43:36. > :43:35.if we 0 very efficient. But what we know is,
:43:36. > :43:36.if we do 0 0 very efficient. But what we know is,
:43:37. > :43:37.if we do that, 0 very efficient. But what we know is,
:43:38. > :43:41.if we do that, the savings do not always manifest themselves in the
:43:42. > :43:46.right place. In Derbyshire, if we were to invest ?1 million more in
:43:47. > :43:50.preventing Babel from tripping and falling and breaking their hips ``
:43:51. > :43:57.preventing people, it would save ?12 million in a any, but the money does
:43:58. > :44:01.not move back into our pockets. You published a report saying that we
:44:02. > :44:07.could save ?30 million a year if we abolished smaller councils. Is that
:44:08. > :44:10.realistic? That came about because last summer, we consulted the
:44:11. > :44:15.general public about our savings, and one thing they said to us is
:44:16. > :44:24.that there are too many councillors and too many cancels. `` councils. I
:44:25. > :44:26.said that we had not considered it but I was willing to commission is
:44:27. > :44:34.an independent work to see what it would save, and I promised... It is
:44:35. > :44:37.a huge amount. I published my strict friends I will publish it at the
:44:38. > :44:41.same time I got it. What do we think about that as an idea? These savings
:44:42. > :44:48.are always worth considering, but unless you get a few IM `` unless
:44:49. > :44:55.you get a complete iron from the distance, is not feasible. `` a
:44:56. > :45:00.complete lie in. You might have a completely new regime. We are
:45:01. > :45:05.working very closely with other organisations, other councils. Do
:45:06. > :45:13.you work together? You are in neighbouring authorities. We do some
:45:14. > :45:17.work together. In answer to your previous question about whether it
:45:18. > :45:21.is worth taking out a complete layer of local Governor, in Derbyshire and
:45:22. > :45:25.in Nottinghamshire, we have taken a more evolutionary approach, we are
:45:26. > :45:29.creating what is known as joint committees, where all the councils
:45:30. > :45:33.in our area come together. In Derbyshire, it is the City Council,
:45:34. > :45:37.the county and the eight districts coming together in one place so we
:45:38. > :45:38.can share costs that way. I'd Mac you 0
:45:39. > :45:42.can share costs that way. I'd Mac you worked as an authority with
:45:43. > :45:48.Nottingham City Council. People might be surprised about that. We go
:45:49. > :45:49.where we can do a deal. We nearly had a deal with Nottingham Shah, but
:45:50. > :45:54.it fell through. I work 0 had a deal with Nottingham Shah, but
:45:55. > :46:02.it fell through. I work very closely with my city Mayor in Leicester. I
:46:03. > :46:06.will work with anybody who can save me money on backroom services so I
:46:07. > :46:10.can spend them on the front line. As leaders, you are putting up council
:46:11. > :46:15.tax am Nick has frozen his. Why should you not just take the guv ``
:46:16. > :46:19.take the money from the Government rose`mac we handed `` we have to
:46:20. > :46:30.make 150 former million pounds of savings forced `` ?154 million. The
:46:31. > :46:38.increase will enable us to improve and deliver a cost`effective
:46:39. > :46:41.service. We have had for years of council tax freezes, that has cost
:46:42. > :46:49.this council a huge amount of money. The council tax increase we
:46:50. > :46:53.are proposing will bring ?15 million over the next three years. That is
:46:54. > :46:58.important income. Why not freeze the council tax in Derbyshire? It was
:46:59. > :47:03.not a decision we took lightly. We know how tight budgets are. But the
:47:04. > :47:07.money you get from the Government as a grad, there is no guarantee it
:47:08. > :47:11.will continue. `` as a grant. Is that right? I was assured that the
:47:12. > :47:12.grant is 0 that right? I was assured that the
:47:13. > :47:15.grant is in 0 that right? I was assured that the
:47:16. > :47:21.grant is in the base, I had gone up by 1% by increasing council tax by
:47:22. > :47:24.1%, it enables me to get ?2.5 million from the Government. I think
:47:25. > :47:27.Leicestershire people are struggling, so I did not want to
:47:28. > :47:34.increase the burden on what they paid. It is very difficult to plan.
:47:35. > :47:40.?500 million worth of public money. Do you think your collectors will
:47:41. > :47:42.think it is too much of a risk? We did a big consultation over the
:47:43. > :47:46.summer and the autumn, and what came out of that very loudly from people
:47:47. > :47:56.in Derbyshire was a value the services. We will find out about
:47:57. > :48:03.that in a moment. That came out in our consultation as well. And you
:48:04. > :48:07.have been listening to what they had disable stop none of us want to do
:48:08. > :48:09.this. But we have to live within our means. 0
:48:10. > :48:12.this. But we have to live within our means. That is clearly what the
:48:13. > :48:18.politicians think, but what about you? Jane Dodge has been speaking to
:48:19. > :48:28.the people most affected by the decisions the leaders are making.
:48:29. > :48:33.It might not sound like it, but this visitor is a friend, not both. John
:48:34. > :48:40.Davidson credit lease out with turning his life around. A soldier
:48:41. > :48:45.since his teens, in 2006 he sustained a serious head injury
:48:46. > :48:50.while serving in Iraq. His marriage broke up and he found himself that
:48:51. > :48:58.in Derbyshire with nowhere to live. The charity P3 stepped in and found
:48:59. > :49:06.him a home. Without it, I think I would be on the street. P3 is a
:49:07. > :49:16.grouping of people who can put a man back together again. That he or she
:49:17. > :49:21.could then look for a good life again. John is one of 800 people
:49:22. > :49:25.that P3 is supporting in Derbyshire. But he warns that work could come to
:49:26. > :49:31.an end if they can to cancel goes ahead with proposed cuts in funding.
:49:32. > :49:36.We will have people sleeping rough prolonged periods of time, living in
:49:37. > :49:39.chaos, massive health needs and massive impact on the police,
:49:40. > :49:45.massive impact on crime. It is a false economy. By fact it is not
:49:46. > :49:49.only charities that are getting a pounding from cuts. Snibston
:49:50. > :49:53.discovery Museum looks set to lose nearly a quarter of ?1 million.
:49:54. > :49:58.Leicestershire County Council wants a smaller attraction, focusing on
:49:59. > :50:02.the site's mining heritage. Opponents say it makes no financial
:50:03. > :50:06.sense. The numbers of people attracted here from outside the
:50:07. > :50:14.county, as well as from within, is significant. Very high numbers of
:50:15. > :50:19.visitors. A recent report showed that this brings in for the local
:50:20. > :50:29.economy something in the region of ?4.4 million. That would be lost.
:50:30. > :50:33.Sun`mac I used to sleep here... Two weeks ago, that is where Daniel was
:50:34. > :50:36.sleeping, apart in 0 weeks ago, that is where Daniel was
:50:37. > :50:41.sleeping, apart in Mansfield. It was summer to get your head down. But
:50:42. > :50:45.thanks to the charity Framework, he has a bed in a hostel for the
:50:46. > :50:47.homeless after a life in and out of prison and he says it is the break
:50:48. > :50:49.he needs 0 prison and he says it is the break
:50:50. > :50:55.he needs to start again. The future is looking good. I am on the way to
:50:56. > :51:04.doing things with my life now. I am going to college. I have plans.
:51:05. > :51:07.There are 15 beds here, all of them currently in use, and there is a
:51:08. > :51:13.long waiting list. Nottinghamshire County Council is proposing to cut
:51:14. > :51:18.funding here by 80%, Framework says that goes ahead, this hostel and
:51:19. > :51:25.4`mac others will have two close. `` and for others. Most people who use
:51:26. > :51:28.this service do so because of psychological or psychiatric
:51:29. > :51:28.problems, drug or alcohol problems, or 0
:51:29. > :51:31.problems, drug or alcohol problems, or because they are homeless. Local
:51:32. > :51:36.authorities do have an obligation to have `` to help homeless people.
:51:37. > :51:41.Lisa has brought John to an advice centre in Ilkeston. Life is looking
:51:42. > :51:43.at him, but if the cuts go ahead, this type of support will be a thing
:51:44. > :51:49.of the past. Some of the people on the front line
:51:50. > :51:54.of these cuts. Let's take a look, first off at
:51:55. > :51:59.John's case, and Iraq veteran who said his life was put on track by
:52:00. > :52:03.this charity. This is a charity whose funding you're going to cut in
:52:04. > :52:08.Derbyshire. We are working very hard not to do so. If you take out of our
:52:09. > :52:11.budget the statutory services, that we have a legal duty to provide,
:52:12. > :52:17.what we have left is not very much at all. That is where this service
:52:18. > :52:22.is funded from. But when you talk about looking further ahead, are you
:52:23. > :52:28.not just building up bigger problems rose`mac absolutely. We all know
:52:29. > :52:33.that. But when you do not have the money in the, what do you do? We set
:52:34. > :52:36.our budget last week, and the figures it was based on, some of
:52:37. > :52:42.them were estimates. When the actuals came in, during the council
:52:43. > :52:46.meeting itself, we found we were ?450,000 that are off. So we put
:52:47. > :52:54.that straight back in. `` that are off. Back into services like P3.
:52:55. > :52:59.That could be the lifeline for them. So it is not as bleak as it sounds?
:53:00. > :53:02.It is very bleak, but where we get a little glimmer of hope, we are using
:53:03. > :53:03.that to protect 0 little glimmer of hope, we are using
:53:04. > :53:08.that to protect the services that we want to preserve. A similar story
:53:09. > :53:13.from Framework, that helps homeless people, facing a massive cut, 80%.
:53:14. > :53:16.The first thing I said when I realised we would have to make these
:53:17. > :53:21.kind of decisions is that we were sorry, that they were in this
:53:22. > :53:26.situation. It is deeply regrettable that we are having to make cuts of
:53:27. > :53:30.this nature. The supporting people budget, the budget that supports
:53:31. > :53:30.organisations like Framework, is being cut by 0
:53:31. > :53:35.organisations like Framework, is being cut by the Government. That is
:53:36. > :53:44.reflected in the decisions we are having to make. Unfortunately, these
:53:45. > :53:47.are the people... Yet, you realise that further down the line, this
:53:48. > :53:58.will cost more, for the NHS, policing. I could not agree more.
:53:59. > :54:04.False economy? Making these cuts now or a false economy for the future? I
:54:05. > :54:09.do not think so, necessarily. I think people realise we have less
:54:10. > :54:13.money. We are sorry we have less money and we are good to have to do
:54:14. > :54:17.things in a lot different way. We will have to prioritise what we
:54:18. > :54:21.want, what we want to achieve... Have you not always have to
:54:22. > :54:23.prioritise? We are physically than to have to stop doing some of the
:54:24. > :54:24.things 0 to have to stop doing some of the
:54:25. > :54:25.things we 0 0 to have to stop doing some of the
:54:26. > :54:31.things we presently do. There is no more money around. I cannot increase
:54:32. > :54:36.my council tax, the Government will not give me any more money. And my
:54:37. > :54:44.reserves are spoken for. The reserve... The recession may be
:54:45. > :54:47.over, but the structural... What about those people who are
:54:48. > :54:53.campaigning to save Snibston? I consulted my electorate. On where
:54:54. > :54:56.they wanted to see savings, and where they wanted the money for a
:54:57. > :55:02.taste. They wanted me to prioritise my spending on vulnerable persons,
:55:03. > :55:07.children, health, highways, and unfortunately for Snibston, it was
:55:08. > :55:13.at the bottom of the pile of things that people chose to spend money on.
:55:14. > :55:17.We have taken a percentage away. And I am afraid I cannot make a special
:55:18. > :55:21.exception for Snibston when I had the same sort of pressures that
:55:22. > :55:26.Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire do. Some people would say that you have
:55:27. > :55:30.ticked high`profile services to cut, like homeless `` like
:55:31. > :55:33.homelessness, deliberately, proving a point. That 0
:55:34. > :55:36.homelessness, deliberately, proving a point. That is not the case, I
:55:37. > :55:40.would never use of vulnerable people as political pawns, that would be
:55:41. > :55:46.against `` offensive to me, personally. You have more than 1000
:55:47. > :55:50.statutory obligations as councils, things that you have to do. How many
:55:51. > :55:55.of those do you think you will still be able to provide in the future? If
:55:56. > :56:00.it is a statutory obligation, we will provide it, as simple as that.
:56:01. > :56:00.We may provide it differently, but we 0
:56:01. > :56:00.We may provide it differently, but we will still provide 0
:56:01. > :56:04.We may provide it differently, but we will still provide it. Will you
:56:05. > :56:11.become more like commissioning bodies in the future? I do not
:56:12. > :56:14.necessarily think we need to go down that avenue. I 0
:56:15. > :56:16.necessarily think we need to go down that avenue. I think what we are
:56:17. > :56:22.going to have to do is look at the provisions of services in a very
:56:23. > :56:27.different way, and ask a lot of people to help themselves, and also
:56:28. > :56:31.to demand management, we need to stop people automatically coming to
:56:32. > :56:35.the council for things and help them to help themselves. As we said
:56:36. > :56:43.before, one of the key things we really have to do is get this bond
:56:44. > :56:47.with the NHS going right. There is not enough money left in the budgets
:56:48. > :56:51.of councils to do all the statutory services and the other stuff that
:56:52. > :56:55.people want us to do. I thought there was a glimmer of hope in the
:56:56. > :56:59.last few days, because Eric Pickles was saying, we are a wealthy
:57:00. > :57:02.country. And I thought that was refreshing to hear, because we are a
:57:03. > :57:07.wealthy country. It just does not feel like it for most people. We
:57:08. > :57:08.need to prioritise what is important, and I do not 0
:57:09. > :57:11.need to prioritise what is important, and I do not think the
:57:12. > :57:15.Government is doing that. The attack on local government budgets has been
:57:16. > :57:19.ferocious. Budgets have been cut far more than at any other part of
:57:20. > :57:22.Government. I'm sorry to say, that is about the Government shifting the
:57:23. > :57:24.blame to 0 is about the Government shifting the
:57:25. > :57:29.blame to the local level. You have us here in the spotlight today, we
:57:30. > :57:33.do not want to do this, we are responsible for the budgets, but we
:57:34. > :57:41.are telling the Government land and clear that they have cut too far. ``
:57:42. > :57:44.loud and clear. I am shaking my head in despair because I absolutely
:57:45. > :57:49.agree with that, I am despairing about the fact that the Government
:57:50. > :57:53.have clearly cut too far. We as local authorities that want to
:57:54. > :57:58.provide services are finding ourselves in this situation, where
:57:59. > :58:06.in a wealthy country, we are unable to do that. Do you agree with Eric
:58:07. > :58:09.Pickles? We are certainly a wealthy country and we are struggling with
:58:10. > :58:16.the money we have, to provide the services which he `` which we have
:58:17. > :58:19.historically provided. But I cannot see any government going back to how
:58:20. > :58:22.things work, we do have a structural deficit and we have to operate
:58:23. > :58:25.within their means that we have got. Time now for a round`up of the
:58:26. > :58:35.political stories this week with our political editor John Hess in sixty
:58:36. > :58:40.seconds. Formidably leader of Leicestershire
:58:41. > :58:45.County Council is to fight the Bosworth seat for UKIP at the next
:58:46. > :58:49.general election. He will take on the Conservative candidate, who has
:58:50. > :58:53.held the seat since 1987. Nottingham says it will soon have the largest
:58:54. > :58:56.fleet of electric buses in Europe stop the City Council is buying 11
:58:57. > :59:01.more low emission buses after getting an extra ?1.5 million from
:59:02. > :59:05.the Green bus fund. High`speed broadband is coming to more homes in
:59:06. > :59:09.Harborough. Extra investment from the District Council means to 90% of
:59:10. > :59:13.homes will be able to access fibre`optic internet. It helps the
:59:14. > :59:17.high number of home`workers and agricultural businesses.
:59:18. > :59:23.And unitary councils again, but not for a county, for a time.
:59:24. > :59:27.Mansfield's executive Mayor wants to replace all of Nottinghamshire's
:59:28. > :59:32.existing eight councils, plus the city, and create three powerful
:59:33. > :59:37.offer at ease, including one for Mansfield and central
:59:38. > :59:41.Nottinghamshire. So, the idea of unitary verities
:59:42. > :59:50.gaining some ground. How will our councils look in five years' time? I
:59:51. > :59:53.will be smaller and leaner, employing fewer people. I will be
:59:54. > :59:57.working closer with the NHS and hopefully, working more closely with
:59:58. > :00:04.other councils. Ayes briefly, what is yet to come as regards cuts? I
:00:05. > :00:07.always say to my city Mayor, 95% of what we do is above and beyond
:00:08. > :00:12.politics. Let's work together with the money we have, with the benefit
:00:13. > :00:16.of the people as a whole. What about cuts? Samak the year that is about
:00:17. > :00:19.to start is 0 cuts? Samak the year that is about
:00:20. > :00:23.to start is bad, but the year after that is even worse. A lot of smaller
:00:24. > :00:29.councils will be struggling by that point. But you have to hope, it is
:00:30. > :00:30.also general election year and I hope we will see a gingerbread
:00:31. > :00:35.ration. That's the Sunday Politics in the
:00:36. > :00:39.East Midlands. `` I hope we will see a change of direction. Thanks to
:00:40. > :00:47.direction? No, in real terms now the rent is falling in London. Andrew,
:00:48. > :00:51.back to you. Welcome back. Let's start by talking
:00:52. > :00:54.about the weather. What could be more British? It has been
:00:55. > :00:57.practically the only topic of conversation for the past few
:00:58. > :01:02.weeks. This morning, Ed Miliband has made the direct link, declaims,
:01:03. > :01:08.between this exceptionally wet and windy weather and climate change.
:01:09. > :01:13.That's an interesting development, taking place. Ed Miliband is the
:01:14. > :01:22.author of the 2008 Climate Change Act, so he has to stick to that line
:01:23. > :01:28.or his life 's work goes up in smoke. When he passed it, there was
:01:29. > :01:32.Westminster consensus. Now the Tories are beginning to appeal off.
:01:33. > :01:38.UKIP has definitely peeled off. Labour and Lib Dems are sticking to
:01:39. > :01:41.their guns, there is now a debate? It has moved from consensus to very
:01:42. > :01:44.fragile consensus. It's an interesting tactic for Ed Miliband
:01:45. > :01:48.to take. He could either approach the floods talking about government
:01:49. > :01:52.failures and handling, instead he has gone for the intellectual
:01:53. > :01:56.argument, try and turn this into a debate about ideology and climate
:01:57. > :02:01.change. I think he will find that quite difficult. Partly, I don't
:02:02. > :02:05.think the public I get listening to an argument like that. Partly
:02:06. > :02:09.because only one in three of the public totally agree with him. The
:02:10. > :02:13.polls for The Times think that about one in three think that man-made I'm
:02:14. > :02:17.a change is responsible for these floods, the rest do not. I'm not
:02:18. > :02:22.sure that the interventions will be particularly well picked up. It puts
:02:23. > :02:26.David Cameron in a difficult position. He was hugging those
:02:27. > :02:31.huskies, it was going to be the greenest Government ever, and now he
:02:32. > :02:36.has an Environment secretary that doesn't really believe in climate
:02:37. > :02:41.change. Well, we don't know where he stands. That is not where he was in
:02:42. > :02:45.2010. It has always been sold to us that he is statesman-like and
:02:46. > :02:48.pragmatic, but that drifts into he doesn't really believe anything
:02:49. > :02:53.This is a worldwide phenomenon now. You've got the Canadian government,
:02:54. > :02:57.they are pretty sceptical these days. The new Australian government
:02:58. > :03:00.is pretty sceptical. The Obama administration has been attacked by
:03:01. > :03:05.the green movement across the United States, he is probably about to
:03:06. > :03:15.approve the keystone pipeline that will take over the Texas refineries.
:03:16. > :03:20.What was a huge consensus across the globe is a guinea to break down
:03:21. > :03:24.Probably started to break down about the time of the financial crisis,
:03:25. > :03:28.the age of austerity, when suddenly people had more to worry about than
:03:29. > :03:31.green issues. Even at home it is a slightly risky tactic for Ed
:03:32. > :03:34.Miliband. The idea there is a scientific consensus on this, there
:03:35. > :03:40.isn't. You look at Professor Collins this morning, climate systems
:03:41. > :03:43.expert, saying, actually, the jet stream is not operating further
:03:44. > :03:48.south because of climate change Or if it is, it is beyond our
:03:49. > :03:53.knowledge. He flies in the face of what Ed Miliband as saying. He's
:03:54. > :03:58.saying the wet weather is caused by global warming, the head of science
:03:59. > :04:01.at Exeter University says the IPCC originally looked at whether climate
:04:02. > :04:05.change could affect what happens to the jet stream and, because it had
:04:06. > :04:12.no evidence it had any effect, it decided not to include it at all in
:04:13. > :04:15.the IPCC report. The problem we have got is that any individual
:04:16. > :04:19.phenomenon is difficult to attribute to climate change. But the Labour
:04:20. > :04:23.Leader just have? And The Met Office have done the same thing. It's a
:04:24. > :04:28.fragile in, but overall we can say we are getting more extreme weather
:04:29. > :04:30.than ever. The most extreme weather, hurricanes and tropical storm is,
:04:31. > :04:36.they have been in decline. Equally, we have had ten of the hottest
:04:37. > :04:42.summers in the last ten years since 1998. Overall, there is a case that
:04:43. > :04:48.can be made that we are getting more. Each individual thing is
:04:49. > :04:51.difficult to say. Until recently, almost everyone agreed with that
:04:52. > :04:56.case. Now the parties are reflecting differences. I wanted to move on,
:04:57. > :05:02.what did you make of two interesting things that happened with the
:05:03. > :05:08.interview with UKIP and the Tories, one Cory saying I am voting to come
:05:09. > :05:12.out, and the UKIP chap saying we are maxed out on Tory defectors, we
:05:13. > :05:15.can't get any more? I think that was a dangerous admission from Patrick
:05:16. > :05:20.O'Flynn from UKIP, essentially saying that their vote has peaked.
:05:21. > :05:25.Looking at the by-elections, I'm not sure that was a particularly wise
:05:26. > :05:31.reflection on that. They got 18 , 23% last year. The case he is making
:05:32. > :05:33.is that there are more votes to be gained by attracting former Labour
:05:34. > :05:39.voters than former Tories. I'm not sure that red UKIP, the bit of UKIP
:05:40. > :05:42.that tries to make benefit protection and some other kind of
:05:43. > :05:46.social issues at the heart really sits comfortably with their
:05:47. > :05:51.insurgent, anti-state message. I don't think it will do particularly
:05:52. > :05:55.well. This is why they are pushing the message, it is their response to
:05:56. > :06:00.the idea and suggestion of a Tory rallying cry that they vote for
:06:01. > :06:05.Nigel Farage, and it is really a vote for Ed Miliband. Patrick is a
:06:06. > :06:09.very good journalist, a very good commentator. He answered almost as a
:06:10. > :06:14.commentator rather than head of communications for a political
:06:15. > :06:20.party. The Government are still trying to rid itself of troublesome
:06:21. > :06:24.priests, an attack on welfare reforms from the Catholic Archbishop
:06:25. > :06:30.of Westminster. Let's have a look and see what he said. The basic
:06:31. > :06:36.safety net that was there to guarantee that people would not be
:06:37. > :06:41.left in hunger or in destitution has actually been torn apart. It no
:06:42. > :06:50.longer exists. And it is a real real, dramatic crisis. The second is
:06:51. > :06:53.that, in this context, the administration of social assistance,
:06:54. > :06:57.I am told, has become more and more punitive. If applicants do not get
:06:58. > :07:03.it right, they have to wait and they have to wait for ten days, two
:07:04. > :07:08.weeks, with nothing. Has the basic safety net disappeared? I don't see
:07:09. > :07:11.how it is possible to argue that. It is certainly the case that there
:07:12. > :07:14.have been reductions in various benefits, some benefits have been
:07:15. > :07:18.scrapped and there is a welfare reform programme. But this country
:07:19. > :07:27.is still spending ?94 billion a year on working age benefits. Excluding
:07:28. > :07:32.pensions? The idea that this equates to some sort of wiping out of the
:07:33. > :07:37.safety net is... He has gone on a full frontal assault on the Tory
:07:38. > :07:42.reforms, not the kind of attack that Labour would be prepared to make?
:07:43. > :07:49.No, they know that it doesn't play very well in the country. He's not
:07:50. > :07:52.up for election. Whether or not you agree about the safety net, I think
:07:53. > :07:57.the welfare reforms have been poorly managed and I don't think that is a
:07:58. > :08:00.full dispute. Universal credit, it is in some very long grass. It had
:08:01. > :08:03.some stupid ideas, like the idea that it would be paid monthly,
:08:04. > :08:08.instead of weekly, meaning that people are more likely to run out of
:08:09. > :08:11.money by the end of the month. It's interesting, in the past, when
:08:12. > :08:15.members of the cloth have attacked the government for welfare reforms,
:08:16. > :08:20.the Government have responded by trying to paint them as lefties
:08:21. > :08:25.ideological driven. I think that is hard in this case, an assault made
:08:26. > :08:28.deliberately in the Telegraph from somebody who feels they come from a
:08:29. > :08:32.centre-right position. I think there will be a bit of awkwardness about
:08:33. > :08:36.this intervention. It is not the kind of thing they wanted to see. Is
:08:37. > :08:41.it politically damaging for the Government? It is if it makes them
:08:42. > :08:45.look mean-spirited. But that is the problem with welfare reforms. You
:08:46. > :08:50.can say all sorts of things about Iain Duncan Smith's competence. But
:08:51. > :08:55.the whole thing springs from a moral mission, as he sees it, to liberate
:08:56. > :08:58.the poor and extend opportunity One of the worst moments for the Tories
:08:59. > :09:02.was blaming the low level of voting in Wythenshawe and sale in the fact
:09:03. > :09:06.that the constituency had, in the words of one senior Tory, the
:09:07. > :09:11.largest council estate in Europe inside its constituency boundary.
:09:12. > :09:16.The point being what? Because you live in a council estate you don't
:09:17. > :09:19.vote? That they don't see people living in council estate as one of
:09:20. > :09:23.them, not an impulse that Margaret Thatcher would have had. I think
:09:24. > :09:28.it's dangerous if they are painting is people as opponents rather than
:09:29. > :09:31.trying to win them over. When they do vote, they determine elections!
:09:32. > :09:39.The idea that there is no such thing as a working-class Tory is toxic. I
:09:40. > :09:45.want to show you a picture. There we go. It is behind me, on the 5th of
:09:46. > :09:53.February, it is all men. And then, on the next, look at that, the 2th,
:09:54. > :09:57.there are a few women. Not exactly many, but some. It is an
:09:58. > :10:01.improvement. But it is so transparent, isn't it? We phoned up
:10:02. > :10:06.one of the women that sat behind David Cameron to ask, why the sudden
:10:07. > :10:09.change? They said, I don't know why you are bothering to ask, it is
:10:10. > :10:15.completely natural, we didn't do anything to stage manage it. Did his
:10:16. > :10:18.nose gets longer? It is something that is very transparent and
:10:19. > :10:23.depressing about the way politicians choose to react to these moments.
:10:24. > :10:30.Every week they put two women behind David Cameron, so that a tight shot
:10:31. > :10:35.shows them. It is called the doughnut. They don't have many women
:10:36. > :10:40.to shuffle around, there are only four among 14 in the Shadow Cabinet.
:10:41. > :10:43.Also, the fact that women, younger women in particular, are much less
:10:44. > :10:49.likely to vote Tory than five or ten years ago. David Cameron, it drives
:10:50. > :10:56.and furious, he is obviously aware this is one of the biggest potential
:10:57. > :10:59.demographic problem is that they have. It also reminds us of how the
:11:00. > :11:03.public can actually see the wiring behind a lot of the stuff. Do they
:11:04. > :11:08.really think your blog so stupid that they will not notice that the
:11:09. > :11:12.following week the front bench is packed with women? I think it just
:11:13. > :11:17.increases contempt for the entire rocket. It is an issue where Labour
:11:18. > :11:22.seem to have pulled ahead of the other parties. We are being told
:11:23. > :11:27.that 50% of candidates in their 100 target seats will be female. It
:11:28. > :11:33.looks like the composition of Labour continues to go towards a kind of
:11:34. > :11:38.rough 50-50 split, eventually. Although that is true, I think the
:11:39. > :11:41.faces we see on the telly, Ed Miliband, Ed Balls, Chris Leslie,
:11:42. > :11:46.they are almost always men. There is a Rachel Reeves, a prominent female
:11:47. > :11:51.face that goes up a lot. But really, the number of e-mails they put up is
:11:52. > :11:58.proportionally a lot smaller. Is the Miliband team still a men's club?
:11:59. > :12:02.Behind the scenes, it is very blokey. It's been described as a
:12:03. > :12:07.kind of seminar room at a university. I think that is true.
:12:08. > :12:13.The Observer did the cutout and keep of the people behind Mr Miliband. As
:12:14. > :12:18.opposed to the Shadow Cabinet, with lots of women in it, it was very
:12:19. > :12:20.male. The one reason Labour have all of these women to put up in
:12:21. > :12:26.constituencies is all women short lists is. If Tories want to change
:12:27. > :12:38.things, I know they can be prone to minute -- and in relation, but they
:12:39. > :12:44.work. In ten years time, I think it will give Labour an immense
:12:45. > :12:50.advantage. By then, I think they will have a woman leader. Who will
:12:51. > :12:54.that be? Potentially somebody not even yet in the Commons. You can see
:12:55. > :13:03.how quickly people can rise to the top, but the Labour Party is going
:13:04. > :13:06.to be increasingly donated by women. Do you think there will be a Labour
:13:07. > :13:12.Leader before Theresa May becomes leader of the Conservatives? I think
:13:13. > :13:16.it is ultimately about Osborne trying to stop Boris. I think I
:13:17. > :13:24.would be astonished if she managed it. The first female Labour Leader?
:13:25. > :13:28.I would pick Rachel Reeves the way it is currently going, she knows her
:13:29. > :13:36.stuff and does well on TV. That is all for this week. We have a week
:13:37. > :13:41.off now. I'll be back in the week after next. Remember, if it is
:13:42. > :13:44.Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics, unless it's a Parliamentary recess.