:00:36. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:46. > :00:49.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:50. > :00:52.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:53. > :00:58.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:00:59. > :01:00.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:01. > :01:06.They could be heading And in the East Midlands: The cuts
:01:07. > :01:10.to mental health services which put patients and the public at risk.
:01:11. > :01:11.And talk like an East Midlander ` should politicians sound more like
:01:12. > :01:15.us? In London, changes to the authority
:01:16. > :01:18.which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political
:01:19. > :01:24.move designed to silence his critics.
:01:25. > :01:28.And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the
:01:29. > :01:33.business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.
:01:34. > :01:37.But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest
:01:38. > :01:45.and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,
:01:46. > :01:51.Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:52. > :01:54.Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been
:01:55. > :01:57.unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the
:01:58. > :02:02.rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister
:02:03. > :02:07.spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the
:02:08. > :02:12.Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence
:02:13. > :02:15.campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when
:02:16. > :02:20.the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were
:02:21. > :02:23.going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that
:02:24. > :02:25.campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in
:02:26. > :02:36.Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.
:02:37. > :02:42.Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no
:02:43. > :02:50.campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have
:02:51. > :02:55.got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have
:02:56. > :03:01.got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we
:03:02. > :03:05.are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the
:03:06. > :03:09.possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think
:03:10. > :03:13.that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it
:03:14. > :03:17.against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a
:03:18. > :03:20.detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England,
:03:21. > :03:24.Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would
:03:25. > :03:28.not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the
:03:29. > :03:32.permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is
:03:33. > :03:36.such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with
:03:37. > :03:42.it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the
:03:43. > :03:46.force of argument is very much against those of us who want to
:03:47. > :03:50.remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the
:03:51. > :03:54.day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland, a
:03:55. > :03:58.deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is
:03:59. > :04:04.nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 20
:04:05. > :04:07.years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in
:04:08. > :04:11.Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the
:04:12. > :04:18.UK. That is perfectly plausible, isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is
:04:19. > :04:21.simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else.
:04:22. > :04:26.What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials
:04:27. > :04:29.saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of
:04:30. > :04:36.England Wales, Northern Ireland, any more than it is in the interests of
:04:37. > :04:43.people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not
:04:44. > :04:50.change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out?
:04:51. > :04:54.I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe
:04:55. > :04:58.Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish
:04:59. > :05:02.Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not
:05:03. > :05:06.sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from
:05:07. > :05:11.Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have
:05:12. > :05:15.not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the
:05:16. > :05:27.questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too
:05:28. > :05:29.negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found
:05:30. > :05:33.you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,
:05:34. > :05:37.isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the
:05:38. > :05:43.people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes,
:05:44. > :05:48.there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing
:05:49. > :05:55.a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which
:05:56. > :05:59.actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come
:06:00. > :06:02.September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to
:06:03. > :06:07.say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of
:06:08. > :06:13.the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll
:06:14. > :06:18.said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the
:06:19. > :06:23.don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you
:06:24. > :06:27.yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act
:06:28. > :06:33.together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,
:06:34. > :06:37.to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists
:06:38. > :06:41.could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the
:06:42. > :06:45.United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the
:06:46. > :06:50.polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,
:06:51. > :07:05.they think this will not happen. It can happen. I have got to tell
:07:06. > :07:07.everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an
:07:08. > :07:10.enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their
:07:11. > :07:12.disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in
:07:13. > :07:17.football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what
:07:18. > :07:21.is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in
:07:22. > :07:29.place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us.
:07:30. > :07:35.Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know
:07:36. > :07:42.what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to
:07:43. > :07:46.blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there
:07:47. > :07:53.will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence.
:07:54. > :07:56.But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the
:07:57. > :08:00.deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls
:08:01. > :08:03.which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite
:08:04. > :08:09.rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down
:08:10. > :08:12.the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year, not
:08:13. > :08:16.just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy
:08:17. > :08:21.negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving
:08:22. > :08:25.places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen
:08:26. > :08:29.then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts
:08:30. > :08:33.about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising
:08:34. > :08:37.that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow
:08:38. > :08:43.Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary
:08:44. > :08:47.union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in
:08:48. > :08:50.a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear
:08:51. > :08:56.submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,
:08:57. > :09:00.probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think
:09:01. > :09:04.whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If
:09:05. > :09:09.the Scots vote for independence, of course a deal will be done about the
:09:10. > :09:12.currency because it is not in London's interests to have a
:09:13. > :09:16.rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not
:09:17. > :09:27.done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is
:09:28. > :09:30.different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on
:09:31. > :09:34.the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without
:09:35. > :09:38.any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if
:09:39. > :09:43.the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except
:09:44. > :09:49.it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go
:09:50. > :09:52.down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the
:09:53. > :09:56.financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would
:09:57. > :10:00.rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary
:10:01. > :10:03.of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much
:10:04. > :10:06.money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major
:10:07. > :10:11.parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is
:10:12. > :10:14.bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think
:10:15. > :10:19.that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex
:10:20. > :10:23.Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big
:10:24. > :10:30.establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my
:10:31. > :10:38.football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no
:10:39. > :10:42.vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left
:10:43. > :10:46.which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex
:10:47. > :10:53.Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding
:10:54. > :10:56.from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being
:10:57. > :11:00.incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not
:11:01. > :11:03.want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of
:11:04. > :11:07.million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a
:11:08. > :11:10.bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's
:11:11. > :11:18.very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way.
:11:19. > :11:26.High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six
:11:27. > :11:33.energy companies account for 95% of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem
:11:34. > :11:38.said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price
:11:39. > :11:40.rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets
:11:41. > :11:45.authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken
:11:46. > :11:49.up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica
:11:50. > :11:53.made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if
:11:54. > :11:58.you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare
:11:59. > :12:02.margin, that is what is left in the generating system to cope with a
:12:03. > :12:08.surge in demand on a cold winter's night, is due to drop to
:12:09. > :12:13.historically low levels in 2016, according to Ofgem. Normally at
:12:14. > :12:18.around 15%, capacity could drop to 2% after the next election and that
:12:19. > :12:22.could lead to a surge in the sale of candles. Now where is that light
:12:23. > :12:28.switch? Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me
:12:29. > :12:36.now. Oh, we have found the light switch! The gap between a peak
:12:37. > :12:41.winter demand and generating capacity could possibly reach 2%
:12:42. > :12:47.next winter or the winter after. We will keep the lights on, that is for
:12:48. > :12:50.clear. When we came to power, energy investment had been relatively low.
:12:51. > :12:54.The Labour Party had failed to deal with the energy deficit. From day
:12:55. > :13:02.one we have been pushing up massively. Investment has been 8
:13:03. > :13:06.billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now
:13:07. > :13:11.heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have
:13:12. > :13:16.been increasing investment massively, last was a record level,
:13:17. > :13:19.we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are
:13:20. > :13:25.showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done
:13:26. > :13:30.enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate
:13:31. > :13:33.huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline
:13:34. > :13:37.investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute.
:13:38. > :13:42.None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter
:13:43. > :13:50.or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down,
:13:51. > :13:57.or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply.
:13:58. > :14:01.It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing
:14:02. > :14:06.anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are
:14:07. > :14:10.able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are
:14:11. > :14:16.connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we
:14:17. > :14:22.get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on.
:14:23. > :14:28.You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last
:14:29. > :14:33.July. But no supplier has agreed to under mothball its plant. We would
:14:34. > :14:40.not expect them to do that yet. Our plan is in place. On time, on
:14:41. > :14:44.schedule, as we already thought it would be. But you have not got a
:14:45. > :14:52.single agreement with a power supply who has mothballed plant to on the
:14:53. > :14:57.ball it. We did not expect to. Our plan is in me National Grid will do
:14:58. > :15:01.an election to allow those plants to come on. There is a huge amount of
:15:02. > :15:04.interest. There are gigawatts of power that can come in to come on.
:15:05. > :15:08.There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of power that
:15:09. > :15:12.can come into that auction and we are not other measures we can take
:15:13. > :15:17.and that is just in the short term. We have a plan for the medium-term.
:15:18. > :15:33.We will be running the first auction for new capacity. The final decision
:15:34. > :15:35.will be taken and we have learned lessons from what they do in North
:15:36. > :15:38.America and other European countries so we can stay minute mothballed
:15:39. > :15:47.plants and new plants to be built. I am absolutely clear there is not a
:15:48. > :15:54.problem. You only build 9000 megawatts of new capacity from
:15:55. > :15:57.2011-13. You have closed almost 22,000 megawatts. Why would you be
:15:58. > :16:02.so cavalier with a nation's power supply? The last Government was
:16:03. > :16:05.cavalier because we knew those figures are happening because we've
:16:06. > :16:09.known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of
:16:10. > :16:12.their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to
:16:13. > :16:20.increase the rate of investment, but we... That shows clearly you are
:16:21. > :16:23.closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you
:16:24. > :16:27.have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are
:16:28. > :16:31.coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased
:16:32. > :16:34.the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under
:16:35. > :16:39.the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the
:16:40. > :16:46.beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are
:16:47. > :16:51.historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a
:16:52. > :16:56.huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins
:16:57. > :17:02.between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is
:17:03. > :17:06.costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People
:17:07. > :17:10.have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a
:17:11. > :17:14.short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a
:17:15. > :17:15.long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between
:17:16. > :17:39.nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between
:17:40. > :17:47.on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has
:17:48. > :17:56.increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the
:17:57. > :17:59.report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been
:18:00. > :18:04.working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we
:18:05. > :18:08.have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on
:18:09. > :18:14.if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but
:18:15. > :18:18.demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to
:18:19. > :18:22.off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,
:18:23. > :18:26.and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the
:18:27. > :18:30.Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks
:18:31. > :18:33.for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around
:18:34. > :18:39.for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to
:18:40. > :18:42.expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into,
:18:43. > :18:50.haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,
:18:51. > :18:55.dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at
:18:56. > :19:05.the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range
:19:06. > :19:10.of power companies who are building a new power station and want to
:19:11. > :19:13.build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100
:19:14. > :19:17.billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore
:19:18. > :19:21.capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the
:19:22. > :19:26.Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to
:19:27. > :19:31.expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We
:19:32. > :19:36.have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is
:19:37. > :19:41.happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say
:19:42. > :19:45.it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we
:19:46. > :19:50.have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at
:19:51. > :19:54.independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to
:19:55. > :19:57.invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore
:19:58. > :20:00.wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only
:20:01. > :20:05.countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker
:20:06. > :20:10.picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an
:20:11. > :20:15.investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.
:20:16. > :20:20.Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,
:20:21. > :20:23.only one started under your watch for the others were done under
:20:24. > :20:28.Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled
:20:29. > :20:31.back from further investment including new offshore wind
:20:32. > :20:37.investment and none of what you're talking about will come before 2020
:20:38. > :20:40.anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about,
:20:41. > :20:44.the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I
:20:45. > :20:51.capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2020,
:20:52. > :20:54.so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have
:20:55. > :20:59.no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers.
:21:00. > :21:04.Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones
:21:05. > :21:09.you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a
:21:10. > :21:13.short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan,
:21:14. > :21:16.auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed
:21:17. > :21:22.plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long-term
:21:23. > :21:26.plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be
:21:27. > :21:30.built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's
:21:31. > :21:35.a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more
:21:36. > :21:38.expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap
:21:39. > :21:44.energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices
:21:45. > :21:51.is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You
:21:52. > :22:02.have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices.
:22:03. > :22:11.All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low
:22:12. > :22:16.Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the
:22:17. > :22:20.last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys
:22:21. > :22:24.prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the
:22:25. > :22:28.Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the
:22:29. > :22:32.time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas
:22:33. > :22:35.could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by
:22:36. > :22:41.the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per
:22:42. > :22:50.megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently.
:22:51. > :22:53.Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast,
:22:54. > :22:57.Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is
:22:58. > :23:01.an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power
:23:02. > :23:06.plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices
:23:07. > :23:11.except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations
:23:12. > :23:15.paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper
:23:16. > :23:20.carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's
:23:21. > :23:24.very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the
:23:25. > :23:29.pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in
:23:30. > :23:34.May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast.
:23:35. > :23:39.You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure
:23:40. > :23:45.is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the
:23:46. > :23:53.first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.
:23:54. > :23:58.If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their
:23:59. > :24:04.partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about
:24:05. > :24:10.lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than
:24:11. > :24:15.the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are
:24:16. > :24:19.targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that
:24:20. > :24:24.that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say
:24:25. > :24:28.that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few
:24:29. > :24:34.years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a
:24:35. > :24:38.single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That's
:24:39. > :24:43.what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in
:24:44. > :24:46.technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in
:24:47. > :24:55.mobile phones to start off with, they were expensive, and they were
:24:56. > :25:00.clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put
:25:01. > :25:04.the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on
:25:05. > :25:10.investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will
:25:11. > :25:14.guarantee them a return of 10% - 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't
:25:15. > :25:19.that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two
:25:20. > :25:23.separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply
:25:24. > :25:28.retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale
:25:29. > :25:32.side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are
:25:33. > :25:38.comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to
:25:39. > :25:41.do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,
:25:42. > :25:50.there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we
:25:51. > :25:54.haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever
:25:55. > :25:58.happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the
:25:59. > :26:02.verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going
:26:03. > :26:04.nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press
:26:05. > :26:07.officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains
:26:08. > :26:11.some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had
:26:12. > :26:14.a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats
:26:15. > :26:17.in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest
:26:18. > :26:21.party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite
:26:22. > :26:32.concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote
:26:33. > :26:35.increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as
:26:36. > :26:38.anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and
:26:39. > :26:43.forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is
:26:44. > :26:46.that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally,
:26:47. > :26:56.electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.
:26:57. > :26:59.For a number of years they were performing better than the UK
:27:00. > :27:03.Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.
:27:04. > :27:06.The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other
:27:07. > :27:10.groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't
:27:11. > :27:13.go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party
:27:14. > :27:19.was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have
:27:20. > :27:22.known that at the outset. In 2006 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won
:27:23. > :27:25.12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour
:27:26. > :27:34.council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing
:27:35. > :27:37.concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different
:27:38. > :27:41.nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over
:27:42. > :27:47.everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I
:27:48. > :27:53.would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here.
:27:54. > :27:57.When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a
:27:58. > :28:02.second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find
:28:03. > :28:05.non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even
:28:06. > :28:10.though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white
:28:11. > :28:14.working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent,
:28:15. > :28:21.everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On
:28:22. > :28:26.behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,
:28:27. > :28:30.that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local
:28:31. > :28:38.Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we
:28:39. > :28:41.could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the
:28:42. > :28:45.council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.
:28:46. > :28:48.But what beat the BNP here in 2010 was a mobilisation of the Labour
:28:49. > :28:52.vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the
:28:53. > :29:00.same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years
:29:01. > :29:04.ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing
:29:05. > :29:08.around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and
:29:09. > :29:12.stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now
:29:13. > :29:17.it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.
:29:18. > :29:22.If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not
:29:23. > :29:26.in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.
:29:27. > :29:31.I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say
:29:32. > :29:35.in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist
:29:36. > :29:39.but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of
:29:40. > :29:42.UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the
:29:43. > :29:51.party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is
:29:52. > :29:53.closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose
:29:54. > :30:10.amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were
:30:11. > :30:14.thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his
:30:15. > :30:17.appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP,
:30:18. > :30:27.something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.
:30:28. > :30:33.This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John
:30:34. > :30:37.Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He
:30:38. > :30:40.went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some
:30:41. > :30:44.voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here
:30:45. > :30:52.has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins
:30:53. > :30:56.me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you
:30:57. > :31:02.had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on
:31:03. > :31:08.the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is
:31:09. > :31:13.very negative as I would expect. The party has faced a few problems. The
:31:14. > :31:19.main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country
:31:20. > :31:24.faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European
:31:25. > :31:34.elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were
:31:35. > :31:39.denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take
:31:40. > :31:44.place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer
:31:45. > :31:52.movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL
:31:53. > :31:58.is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not
:31:59. > :32:02.a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took
:32:03. > :32:08.a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this
:32:09. > :32:13.stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless
:32:14. > :32:16.promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on
:32:17. > :32:22.this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.
:32:23. > :32:27.Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will
:32:28. > :32:32.probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across
:32:33. > :32:39.Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I
:32:40. > :32:56.reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and
:32:57. > :33:01.Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are
:33:02. > :33:05.on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I
:33:06. > :33:10.was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party
:33:11. > :33:14.did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and
:33:15. > :33:17.Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was
:33:18. > :33:23.true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader
:33:24. > :33:29.who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy.
:33:30. > :33:35.No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is
:33:36. > :33:41.irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs
:33:42. > :33:46.and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the
:33:47. > :33:54.European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose
:33:55. > :34:00.seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far
:34:01. > :34:11.right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin
:34:12. > :34:16.appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is
:34:17. > :34:24.part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with
:34:25. > :34:27.them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am
:34:28. > :34:32.perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible
:34:33. > :34:36.reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when
:34:37. > :34:43.will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely
:34:44. > :34:51.for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and
:34:52. > :34:56.self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to
:34:57. > :35:02.Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in
:35:03. > :35:06.Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just
:35:07. > :35:13.an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is
:35:14. > :35:17.completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the
:35:18. > :35:22.polls, performance at elections, the problem with your leadership is you
:35:23. > :35:26.are now going the way of the National front, heading for
:35:27. > :35:31.oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the
:35:32. > :35:36.problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years
:35:37. > :35:41.ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not
:35:42. > :35:45.around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a
:35:46. > :35:49.prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country.
:35:50. > :35:53.That will lead to huge problems. Only the British National Party are
:35:54. > :35:59.prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing
:36:00. > :36:03.this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how
:36:04. > :36:08.irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New
:36:09. > :36:13.Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would
:36:14. > :36:17.turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they
:36:18. > :36:21.put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of
:36:22. > :36:24.bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.
:36:25. > :36:27.You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in
:36:28. > :36:31.Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in
:36:32. > :36:43.In the East Midlands: A growing crisis in mental health care ` poor
:36:44. > :36:55.service in our hospitals and patients relying on cash`strapped
:36:56. > :36:59.charities. They give me food parcels, he comes round to my house
:37:00. > :37:02.every week and helps me with bills. I suffer from mental health problems
:37:03. > :37:05.and alcohol problems. And talk like an East Midlander!
:37:06. > :37:11.Should politicians be speaking our language to get their ideas across?
:37:12. > :37:15.We don't understand what they're saying. One minute it's one thing,
:37:16. > :37:19.the next time we see them on TV there's saying the opposite. They
:37:20. > :37:21.don't want us to know what they're doing.
:37:22. > :37:25.Hello, I'm John Hess, and my guests this week, two politicians who
:37:26. > :37:27.always tell it how it is ` Stephen Dorrell, the Conservative MP for
:37:28. > :37:33.Charnwood in Leicestershire, and John Mann, who's Labour's MP for
:37:34. > :37:36.Bassetlaw in North Nottinghamshire. But first, the news that Atos is
:37:37. > :37:40.pulling out of its contract to carry out assessments to see if people on
:37:41. > :37:44.benefits are fit to work. It's an issue we've looked at before ` back
:37:45. > :37:50.in November, we featured a Derbyshire man, Gary Swift, who has
:37:51. > :37:53.one arm. He told us he'd been asked if his arm would grow back at an
:37:54. > :38:05.Atos interview, although the company denied the claim. And the Bolsover
:38:06. > :38:08.MP Dennis Skinner launched a savage attack in the House of Commons over
:38:09. > :38:11.the case of a constituent he said had died from cancer whilst
:38:12. > :38:17.appealing against an Atos decision that he was fit to work. Two things
:38:18. > :38:24.the Prime Minister should do. One, with immediate effect, make a
:38:25. > :38:30.payment to his widow to cover the suffering, the pain and the loss of
:38:31. > :38:37.income. And secondly, abolish this cruel, heartless monster called
:38:38. > :38:40.Atos. Get rid of it. A typically powerful argument from
:38:41. > :38:51.Dennis Skinner there. Stephen Dorrell, did David Cameron take that
:38:52. > :38:56.advice on board? I think many MPs, myself included, have had cases in
:38:57. > :39:02.their constituency surgeries where the service delivered by this
:39:03. > :39:06.business was not what we would want to see, which is why the government
:39:07. > :39:14.takes action to change the service so that it does meet standards.
:39:15. > :39:19.There are no party politics in this. Atos were appointed in 2008 by
:39:20. > :39:27.predecessors. They did not deliver. They will be changed. Who will take
:39:28. > :39:34.it on? The ministers made it clear that they are open to proposals from
:39:35. > :39:41.a wide range of potential partners. No party politics in this? Well,
:39:42. > :39:53.good riddance to bad rubbish. That is what they were. They were just
:39:54. > :39:58.stitching decent people up. But Labour introduced it in the first
:39:59. > :40:03.place. It was a bad Labour decision and this lot have worsened it,
:40:04. > :40:11.telling them, here are your targets, not treating the disabled as human
:40:12. > :40:17.beings, but as economic fodder. Will not a future Labour government have
:40:18. > :40:20.to have a similar setup? We need doctors to make an assessment and
:40:21. > :40:27.the NHS are the ones that should be doing that, deciding how disabled
:40:28. > :40:34.people are and what help they need. Is that practical? I don't think it
:40:35. > :40:38.is necessary to have a doctor doing everyone a doctor doing every one of
:40:39. > :40:49.these assessments. The assessment is fair and when people cannot qualify,
:40:50. > :40:56.we should all agree that the amounts are set.
:40:57. > :40:59.Next, there are warnings that cuts in mental health treatment are
:41:00. > :41:03.putting patients and the public at risk. Unions say some parts of the
:41:04. > :41:06.East Midlands are facing a 25% cut in the number of mental health
:41:07. > :41:09.workers, who treat some of the most vulnerable people in our society.
:41:10. > :41:17.Chris Doidge has been taking a closer look.
:41:18. > :41:22.In Derbyshire, Donovan tells me about his experience of getting help
:41:23. > :41:28.for mental illness. You seem to go in and they've got one key worker.
:41:29. > :41:31.Sorry, that keyword is off. Or they change your work. See you have to go
:41:32. > :41:35.through your life story again and again. It happened this year about
:41:36. > :41:42.three times already and it's only March. Many of the charities helping
:41:43. > :41:46.people with mental illness have found their funding squeezed. Derby
:41:47. > :41:51.City Council have taken away all the funding, which has caused
:41:52. > :41:57.operational difficulties. We're going to have to reduce the
:41:58. > :42:02.involvement. They're been cut across the mental health sector. Firstly,
:42:03. > :42:07.local councils have reduced grant funding. Secondly, in the NHS,
:42:08. > :42:09.mental health trusts have had to reduce the number of beds available
:42:10. > :42:14.because of the financial pressure they are under. Among the mental
:42:15. > :42:19.health units in trouble in recent years, this one at the Glenfield
:42:20. > :42:22.Hospital in Leicester. After several bad reports from the Care Quality
:42:23. > :42:28.Commission, health bosses say there are signs of improvement. I was
:42:29. > :42:33.really pleased to see some improvements. I'm a doctor in my
:42:34. > :42:38.background, a psychiatrist, so it is heartening to see the improvements
:42:39. > :42:42.that have been made. Some of the comments that have been made so
:42:43. > :42:47.serious that you wonder whether a health trust should have identified
:42:48. > :42:53.some of problems itself. I agree. We collect hundreds of pieces of
:42:54. > :42:57.information and were doing so, but we really have to focus on the
:42:58. > :43:00.important pieces of information. What are patients and staff saying
:43:01. > :43:08.about our services? With the recommend them? Savings in the NHS
:43:09. > :43:10.partly depend on councils tackling mental illness earlier. In
:43:11. > :43:16.Nottinghamshire, there are fears that the opposite will happen. The
:43:17. > :43:28.council is planning to cut by 25% all social care jobs. That is a
:43:29. > :43:32.dramatic cut in the service. Demographic changes and better
:43:33. > :43:36.awareness mean mental health is becoming a bigger and bigger issue.
:43:37. > :43:42.But in the East Midlands, as in the UK more widely, the funding for
:43:43. > :43:44.mental health is not keeping pace. Well, Nottinghamshire County Council
:43:45. > :43:47.told us they're prioritising mental health services, with ?10 million
:43:48. > :43:51.pounds dedicated to it next year. But they also say they're having to
:43:52. > :43:54.make cuts to services for vulnerable people because of government
:43:55. > :43:57.cutbacks. And that's an issue Mark Simms knows all about.
:43:58. > :44:06.Mark Simms is the chief executive of the Derbyshire charity P3, which
:44:07. > :44:17.works with vulnerable people. What are some of the problems you deal
:44:18. > :44:21.with? The simple truth of it is these cuts are impacting harshly on
:44:22. > :44:25.people with mental health problems from two angles. One, the welfare
:44:26. > :44:35.benefit reform and the impact that is happening `` having. But also the
:44:36. > :44:40.cuts to social care. There is no requirement, no statutory duty to
:44:41. > :44:43.support vulnerable people. There are duties to do other things, but if
:44:44. > :44:50.you are simply someone vulnerable with a set of need, there is no
:44:51. > :44:56.statutory requirement to support you. We're talking about people who
:44:57. > :45:00.present with multiple and complex needs. People who sometimes get
:45:01. > :45:04.letters they don't understand, they fall behind in their rent. It is a
:45:05. > :45:15.downward spiral because there is no safety net to stop that happening.
:45:16. > :45:20.Stephen Dorrell, this will not come as a surprise to because of the
:45:21. > :45:24.report you published last year. A quote said the situation was so bad
:45:25. > :45:30.it was an infringement of the human rights of patients. What did your
:45:31. > :45:38.committee mean by that? We published several reports on mental health
:45:39. > :45:48.services. That particular quote I think refers to the abuse of
:45:49. > :45:54.sectioning powers. The NHS is allowed to treat patients
:45:55. > :45:56.compulsorily in closely defined circumstances and occasionally we
:45:57. > :46:00.were concerned some psychiatrists have been abusing that power to
:46:01. > :46:08.subject people to compulsory medical treatment that they did not want.
:46:09. > :46:12.That was the abuse of human rights. What I agree with Mark about is the
:46:13. > :46:23.need to ensure there is proper provision in the community to enable
:46:24. > :46:26.people to leave `` to lead lives. This is why the government has
:46:27. > :46:29.introduced what is known as the better care fund, which is doing
:46:30. > :46:33.something health ministers have talked about for half a century.
:46:34. > :46:39.They are making the health service and the social care system work more
:46:40. > :46:42.closely together to join them up in order to deliver better care for
:46:43. > :46:51.elderly people and for other people who suffer. Is this the picture you
:46:52. > :46:54.recognise? These are the sneaky NHS cuts. The cuts next year will be
:46:55. > :46:58.bigger than this year. The year after that will be bigger still.
:46:59. > :47:02.They say they are not cutting the NHS but these are massive cuts.
:47:03. > :47:09.Local authorities will have to cope even more in the future. This is
:47:10. > :47:18.precisely what is going to get cut. Are these cuts underhand? We are
:47:19. > :47:25.carrying out what the Health Select Committee has set out. It was first
:47:26. > :47:28.set out in 2009, this challenge, by Andy Burnham when he was Health
:47:29. > :47:32.Secretary. The resources available to the health and care system are
:47:33. > :47:37.certainly more constrained than they were in the last decade. That is
:47:38. > :47:44.precisely why we need to address some of these gaps in services, so
:47:45. > :47:51.people don't fall down the cracks in the way that was illustrated there.
:47:52. > :47:54.Loads of people are falling through the cracks. But many more will next
:47:55. > :48:00.year. For families who have someone with mental health problems, who
:48:01. > :48:06.needs that treatment, it is going to be horrendous. The government is not
:48:07. > :48:10.prepared to be honest and allow the public to have a debate about it.
:48:11. > :48:14.They are claiming there are no cuts. These are massive cuts and mental
:48:15. > :48:17.health is taking the brunt of them. What is your reaction to all this?
:48:18. > :48:24.What impact do you think it will have going forward? I think there
:48:25. > :48:34.are not cracks appearing, there are enormous crevasses. Voluntary sector
:48:35. > :48:43.funding is being cut by 80%, 100% in some cases. Where are these cases
:48:44. > :48:48.going to do `` to go? Were talking about families in real chaos
:48:49. > :48:52.sometimes. And sometimes it is small interventions that prevent that. We
:48:53. > :48:57.get a link them into support, more solid structures of how to live and
:48:58. > :49:00.survive. But the support that we provide, when that is taken away,
:49:01. > :49:06.people try to access that support through the health care system and
:49:07. > :49:12.put those systems under more pressure. It is a downward spiral.
:49:13. > :49:16.You are a former Health Secretary, chairman of a highly influential
:49:17. > :49:23.select committee of MPs. What can be done to sort this out? This is why
:49:24. > :49:29.the health committee were doing a review of the child and adolescent
:49:30. > :49:33.mental health services. Some of the biggest problems in the mental
:49:34. > :49:36.health world are to be found in those services for children and
:49:37. > :49:41.adolescents. In particular, when they leave the child and adolescent
:49:42. > :49:47.service and going into the adult service. At a time when resources
:49:48. > :49:54.are more constrained than they were, there is no point denying that, it
:49:55. > :49:59.is clearly true and likely to remain true after the election, whatever
:50:00. > :50:03.the results, but that is why it is so important to ensure the services
:50:04. > :50:10.are properly designed to avoid people falling between different
:50:11. > :50:14.elements of the service. Money is tight and mental health has surely
:50:15. > :50:19.always been the Cinderella of the health service. And it will become
:50:20. > :50:25.more so. Where will these people and out? On the streets, in crime, in
:50:26. > :50:31.prison. So eventually, we will all have to pay for it. This is the
:50:32. > :50:37.wrong kind of cut. Vulnerable people are going to be terribly hurt. The
:50:38. > :50:42.argument in a sense is stronger than that. So often, they don't end up
:50:43. > :50:49.where you say. They actually end up in acute hospitals when they don't
:50:50. > :50:51.need to be. It is by improving community services and links with
:50:52. > :50:59.the voluntary sector as well statutory services that we can
:51:00. > :51:07.enable people to lead better lives. Mark, what do you think? It is a bit
:51:08. > :51:12.smoke and mirrors. We have to leave it there, I'm afraid.
:51:13. > :51:15.Some plain speaking from both of our politicians there. But is there
:51:16. > :51:19.enough of that around? Last week, John Mann, you said Ed Miliband
:51:20. > :51:21.needs to talk more like they do in Bassetlaw rather than Hampstead.
:51:22. > :51:28.We'll get your views shortly, but first, Des has been to Bassetlaw to
:51:29. > :51:36.get the local lingo. Do politicians speak our language?
:51:37. > :51:41.To find out, we are here in Worksop on the high street, or as a
:51:42. > :51:45.politician might say, an area with potential for retail and catering
:51:46. > :51:54.opportunities. They speak a load of rubbish. They all speak the same.
:51:55. > :52:00.They learn it at university. They don't really conversed with the
:52:01. > :52:04.normal person in the street. I don't really listen to it. If they spoke
:52:05. > :52:13.more like the common man, would you get more into it? Probably. Just
:52:14. > :52:20.normal English, no fancy words, just ordinary. Like normal people on the
:52:21. > :52:31.street. Wide evening a taut jargon? I've no idea. `` why do you think
:52:32. > :52:37.they'd talk in jargon? It probably makes them feel better. One minute
:52:38. > :52:45.they're saying one thing, the next time we see them on telly they are
:52:46. > :52:49.saying the complete opposite. They don't speak plain English that
:52:50. > :53:00.ordinary people can understand. Wide evening they do that? `` why do you
:53:01. > :53:10.think they do that? Because they don't want you to know what they are
:53:11. > :53:24.doing. That should be obvious. Were there any surprises there? No
:53:25. > :53:29.surprises whatsoever. Politicians could have some real fun. Starting
:53:30. > :53:35.to use the same phrases ` it's the right thing to do. It's incredibly
:53:36. > :53:41.important. Hard`working families. This kind of jargon time and time
:53:42. > :53:46.again, the political class is separating itself and is going to
:53:47. > :53:53.pay a heavy price. Have you used that phrase? I tried to avoid
:53:54. > :53:59.jargon, I can't say that has never passed my lips. It is the curse of
:54:00. > :54:05.the sound bite. I always tried to avoid endlessly repeating the same
:54:06. > :54:09.sound bite. You do have to make the same point, but to try to find a way
:54:10. > :54:15.to make it with fresh language every time is more likely to find an
:54:16. > :54:21.audience. Critics of your government will say, look around the Cabinet
:54:22. > :54:24.table, a lot of posh voices. Does that shaped decision`making in
:54:25. > :54:31.government, that maybe the government are out of touch? I think
:54:32. > :54:36.all the major parties try hard to bring in a broader range of voices.
:54:37. > :54:41.It is certainly true John and I are exactly the same in this respect. We
:54:42. > :54:47.are both white males of an indeterminate age. All three parties
:54:48. > :54:53.are trying to bring in people from an ethnic minority, more women.
:54:54. > :54:59.Younger members, I think it is all`important. There is no easy fix
:55:00. > :55:03.but I think listening to what people are saying will make one party more
:55:04. > :55:06.electable. So does it really matter what
:55:07. > :55:09.politicians sound or even look like if they're doing their job? Well, an
:55:10. > :55:12.expert from Nottingham University has been studying what the public
:55:13. > :55:20.want from their political leaders. Professor Phil Cowley told us it
:55:21. > :55:23.does matter. People will often say parliament is becoming less
:55:24. > :55:28.diverse, or sometimes more diverse, I'm not sure it is. It is becoming
:55:29. > :55:35.diverse in different ways. 40 years ago, there were much larger number
:55:36. > :55:38.of working`class MPs than there now. Lots of people who had worked in
:55:39. > :55:43.manual jobs and then went on to Westminster. But there were no
:55:44. > :55:49.women. Now, there are more women but the place is much more middle class.
:55:50. > :55:53.So whether it is becoming more less diverse overtime is tricky. It is
:55:54. > :56:00.unrepresentative now and it was unrepresentative then. Researchers
:56:01. > :56:03.also found voters overall want Parliament to be more reflective of
:56:04. > :56:09.society but they don't expect their MPs necessarily to have those issues
:56:10. > :56:13.taken on board. They don't expect their MPs to reflect the whole of
:56:14. > :56:20.society, but they do expect Parliament to. Is there a
:56:21. > :56:23.contradiction? I don't think people will be calling for Dennis Skinner
:56:24. > :56:29.to be replaced by a 20`year`old Oxford graduate. MPs should be seen
:56:30. > :56:34.to be in touch with their constituency. That is more of a
:56:35. > :56:40.missing ingredient. MPs don't live in their constituency, spend much
:56:41. > :56:44.time there. They use clever technology to communicate rather
:56:45. > :56:50.than being seen. I think that divides politicians and the public
:56:51. > :56:57.and resentment is beginning to grow. Do you see that resentment? Yes, I
:56:58. > :57:01.do. First of all, Parliament does not work if there are not voices in
:57:02. > :57:04.Parliament that people feel are speaking their language, saying the
:57:05. > :57:10.things they want to see said in Parliament. But it has to do
:57:11. > :57:15.something else as well. It is no good having a parliament that does
:57:16. > :57:20.not address the real issues. It needs to address health failings, as
:57:21. > :57:25.we've been talking about, education, the deficit. It has two deal with
:57:26. > :57:31.real issues. The language has to reflect peoples views. Has that
:57:32. > :57:38.changed in the time you been in the Commons? Yes, I think politics has
:57:39. > :57:43.become too concerned with the way things look rather than ensuring the
:57:44. > :57:49.real issues are explored in depth in language that people understand. One
:57:50. > :57:55.measure that might change all this, you think. Well, I'd have people
:57:56. > :57:59.choose the candidates at the primaries. I think that would
:58:00. > :58:01.liberate the Labour Party and we would be far more representative. We
:58:02. > :58:12.would sell into power. ``sail. And now for a round`up of some of
:58:13. > :58:19.the other stories of the week in 60 seconds, with Rob Pittam.
:58:20. > :58:24.A move by the North West Leicestershire MP to save people who
:58:25. > :58:28.don't pay their TV licences from getting a criminal record is set to
:58:29. > :58:34.become law. The Conservative MP got the backing of 150 of his fellow
:58:35. > :58:38.MPs. I said, will you support my amendment. They actually couldn't
:58:39. > :58:43.believe it was a criminal offence. It is. People don't realise. The Lib
:58:44. > :58:48.Dems have chosen a candidate for mid Derbyshire in the next election.
:58:49. > :58:52.Hilary Jones will take on the sitting MP.
:58:53. > :58:58.Residents and businesses in Nottingham will soon be able to use
:58:59. > :59:04.a car hire scheme introduced by the City Council. The charge is from ?5
:59:05. > :59:08.an hour. Leicester City Council is asking
:59:09. > :59:15.people for their views on a shake`up of parking. Plans include payment by
:59:16. > :59:19.debit and credit card and reducing the parking zones in the city
:59:20. > :59:23.centre. That's the Sunday Politics in the
:59:24. > :59:26.East Midlands, thanks to my guests John Mann and Stephen Dorrell. Don't
:59:27. > :59:31.forget to catch up with my political blog. Next week, our guests are
:59:32. > :59:32.Loughborough's Nicky Morgan and the Chesterfield MP Labour's Toby
:59:33. > :59:35.Perkins. Now, back to Andrew Neil. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew,
:59:36. > :59:49.back to you. Now let's get more from our
:59:50. > :59:53.political panel. If the BNP finished? They were never
:59:54. > :59:56.spectacularly successful to begin with but one of my childhood
:59:57. > :00:01.memories was a huge fuss in London about the fact that they won a few
:00:02. > :00:03.council seat on the Isle of dogs back in 1993. That was enough to
:00:04. > :00:06.cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think
:00:07. > :00:11.the big difference with the National front in France is that they are
:00:12. > :00:15.building on decades of successful that they finished second in the
:00:16. > :00:20.presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they
:00:21. > :00:24.were versions of their politics. So they are building on a lot whereas
:00:25. > :00:33.the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country.
:00:34. > :00:38.It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of
:00:39. > :00:44.its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not
:00:45. > :00:48.as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in
:00:49. > :00:56.the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same
:00:57. > :01:01.about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is
:01:02. > :01:04.pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about
:01:05. > :01:07.immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to
:01:08. > :01:11.an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council
:01:12. > :01:15.houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive.
:01:16. > :01:20.We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As
:01:21. > :01:27.extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the
:01:28. > :01:35.comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left
:01:36. > :01:40.as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement
:01:41. > :01:51.that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest.
:01:52. > :01:55.Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its
:01:56. > :01:59.act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge
:02:00. > :02:05.and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist
:02:06. > :02:10.party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have
:02:11. > :02:16.voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and
:02:17. > :02:24.France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when
:02:25. > :02:30.they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because
:02:31. > :02:39.the next election was 2007. 2002 they came second when Jean-Marie Le
:02:40. > :02:50.Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put
:02:51. > :02:54.them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much
:02:55. > :02:58.harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than
:02:59. > :03:12.there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If
:03:13. > :03:16.Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the
:03:17. > :03:20.centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the
:03:21. > :03:26.second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does
:03:27. > :03:31.and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's
:03:32. > :03:35.doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might
:03:36. > :03:40.call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from
:03:41. > :03:45.xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from
:03:46. > :03:49.globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but
:03:50. > :03:53.are put off by the current president. That is what I do not
:03:54. > :03:58.think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon
:03:59. > :04:03.Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he
:04:04. > :04:05.was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up
:04:06. > :04:12.against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the
:04:13. > :04:17.phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of
:04:18. > :04:21.electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a
:04:22. > :04:25.few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting
:04:26. > :04:28.people's bins collected so they become part of the system that
:04:29. > :04:34.people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the
:04:35. > :04:38.Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be
:04:39. > :04:43.cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the
:04:44. > :04:47.leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be
:04:48. > :04:53.cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where
:04:54. > :04:57.the Labour leader is still 1%. I have read in the paper that there is
:04:58. > :05:02.quite a lot of of the record briefings going on at the top of the
:05:03. > :05:07.Labour Party. Give us a sense of the mood. Clearly, they are unsettled.
:05:08. > :05:17.One pol looks OK but there has been a run of polls where there is a lead
:05:18. > :05:24.over the Tories which is closing. There are worrying number of people
:05:25. > :05:28.who are what are called the 35s and they are people who thought all the
:05:29. > :05:32.Labour Party needs to do is sit still because there are a number of
:05:33. > :05:37.Liberal Democrat voters who hate the coalition. Because the Conservatives
:05:38. > :05:41.did not get through the boundary changes they needed to win, we can
:05:42. > :05:46.sit tight and it will all be fine. What a few wise old heads are
:05:47. > :05:51.concerned about is they feel this has a feel of 1987 about it when the
:05:52. > :05:56.Labour Party was united. They had a very good leader. The leader was
:05:57. > :06:00.impressive, the party was united and then what happened? They met the
:06:01. > :06:05.British people and an election. The British people said, terribly sorry,
:06:06. > :06:09.you are not occupying the party political territory where we will
:06:10. > :06:14.vote for you. There are some people from the Blair era who say it feels
:06:15. > :06:20.a bit complacent and there may be a bit of a shock when they meet the
:06:21. > :06:25.voters. We talk about people being unsettled but Ed Miliband is not
:06:26. > :06:28.unsettled. His defining characteristic is you might call it
:06:29. > :06:32.steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not
:06:33. > :06:36.respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But
:06:37. > :06:40.he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may
:06:41. > :06:44.think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot
:06:45. > :06:48.after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political
:06:49. > :06:56.weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr
:06:57. > :06:59.Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition
:07:00. > :07:03.authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader.
:07:04. > :07:07.And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be
:07:08. > :07:13.attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget
:07:14. > :07:17.that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical
:07:18. > :07:24.trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to
:07:25. > :07:30.five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question
:07:31. > :07:36.is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This
:07:37. > :07:40.reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking
:07:41. > :07:45.poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and
:07:46. > :07:49.personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away
:07:50. > :07:56.an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important
:07:57. > :08:00.difference with the 1980s which was because you did not know when the
:08:01. > :08:05.election would be. Will it be in 87 or 88? They do not need to make up
:08:06. > :08:08.their mind until next year. What they are telling the pollsters now,
:08:09. > :08:12.we do not like this government because of course, you do not like
:08:13. > :08:17.the government. But next January or February they will be making up
:08:18. > :08:22.their minds. Is there a lot of animosity among the leading Labour
:08:23. > :08:26.figures behind-the-scenes? It must be personal or tactical because
:08:27. > :08:32.there are not big ideological differences between them, is there?
:08:33. > :08:37.Yes and no. What is striking is how little support Miliband gets from
:08:38. > :08:43.the shadow cabinet. He does not have outriders. That has been a
:08:44. > :08:47.continuous theme. Said he feels he is on his own? That they feel they
:08:48. > :08:54.do not get support from him. There was a column by Jenni Russell saying
:08:55. > :09:00.he is distant and detached. And Andrew Walmsley touched on this in
:09:01. > :09:05.the Observer. One of the divisions is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible
:09:06. > :09:09.structural problem between those two. It is a real problem. Ed
:09:10. > :09:15.Miliband believes Ed Balls has not done enough to get economic red
:09:16. > :09:18.ability. Ed Balls believes Ed Miliband is making airy fairy
:09:19. > :09:23.speeches and it will not cut with the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron
:09:24. > :09:27.nor Mr Miller band took part in the debate which happened earlier this
:09:28. > :09:33.week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. We have got another one coming up on
:09:34. > :09:38.the BBC on Wednesday night. Let's remind ourselves of what happened in
:09:39. > :09:46.last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting.
:09:47. > :09:52.We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A
:09:53. > :09:59.referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can
:10:00. > :10:08.read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up... We
:10:09. > :10:14.have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true.
:10:15. > :10:22.Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on
:10:23. > :10:28.facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen
:10:29. > :10:36.to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You
:10:37. > :10:43.have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night.
:10:44. > :10:48.I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that
:10:49. > :10:53.and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for
:10:54. > :10:58.pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said
:10:59. > :11:06.actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged later
:11:07. > :11:09.on that Nick Clegg made a difficult argument. I think the most important
:11:10. > :11:13.thing Nigel Farage said was he distinguished out the immigration
:11:14. > :11:18.policy by saying we're not just closing day over, we want people to
:11:19. > :11:21.come, we just do not want mass EU immigration. That is an important
:11:22. > :11:25.thing for him to say to get away from the echoes of the far right. I
:11:26. > :11:33.suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us to read the small print. That was 11
:11:34. > :11:37.turn he took. It compounded his reputation for being sneaky. I
:11:38. > :11:43.slightly disagree about the pundits. I say this as someone who thought
:11:44. > :11:48.far it would win. -- Nigel Farage would win. The fact that the public
:11:49. > :11:55.disagree with you and the public favoured Nigel Farage does not mean
:11:56. > :12:01.the public were wrong. The question is, who is going to tune in for the
:12:02. > :12:07.second one? What is the answer to that? Phil Collins argument is a man
:12:08. > :12:13.who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a binary choice in this debate.
:12:14. > :12:16.Clearly they need to brush up on opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs
:12:17. > :12:20.to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg needs to brush up on the motions
:12:21. > :12:25.because he did not connect very well. Where Nick Clegg may go after
:12:26. > :12:30.Nigel Farage is when the -- when he said the EU has blood on its hands
:12:31. > :12:34.with Ukraine. He then came back to talk about the vanity of EU foreign
:12:35. > :12:39.policy and said European Union had made what was going on in Syria
:12:40. > :12:42.worse. It is one thing to say I do not think the UK should be part of
:12:43. > :12:46.the joint European foreign policy, it is part of another thing to say
:12:47. > :12:51.that Europe which will act with or without the UK is responsible for
:12:52. > :12:55.blood on the streets of Kiev and also responsible for exacerbating
:12:56. > :13:02.the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an hour is too long for Nigel Farage's
:13:03. > :13:06.shtick? That may be the case but Nick Clegg has precedence. He does
:13:07. > :13:11.that show and he has had to deal with the worst thing with dealing
:13:12. > :13:15.with what is thrown at him so he has honed his view consistently. We will
:13:16. > :13:19.see what happens in part two. That's all for this week. The Daily
:13:20. > :13:23.Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime every day this week. I'll be here
:13:24. > :13:25.next week at the usual time of 11 o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:26. > :13:32.it's the Sunday Politics.