:00:32. > :00:36.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for
:00:37. > :00:42.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'
:00:43. > :00:45.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the
:00:46. > :00:47.issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the
:00:48. > :00:57.Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever
:00:58. > :00:59.we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political
:01:00. > :01:08.commentators. And in the East Midlands: Protestors
:01:09. > :01:12.gather in Nottinghamshire to fight any moves to begin fracking here.
:01:13. > :01:14.And, feeling hard up? New figures say we've had the biggest fall in
:01:15. > :01:17.wages in the newspapers which some claim are
:01:18. > :01:23.politically slanted and not impartial about informing people of
:01:24. > :01:27.local services. So all that to come between now and
:01:28. > :01:29.quarter to four and for the next thirty minutes or so we'll be
:01:30. > :01:32.debating the European elections. Here in the studio we have Syed
:01:33. > :01:35.Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard
:01:36. > :01:38.Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader
:01:39. > :01:48.of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of
:01:49. > :01:51.communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us
:01:52. > :02:01.their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they
:02:02. > :02:03.drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed.
:02:04. > :02:09.Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is
:02:10. > :02:13.about. The vote to choose members of the
:02:14. > :02:17.European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same
:02:18. > :02:20.day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:21. > :02:24.sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:25. > :02:28.sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional
:02:29. > :02:36.representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.
:02:37. > :02:40.What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has
:02:41. > :02:43.grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or
:02:44. > :02:50.reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have
:02:51. > :02:56.been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,
:02:57. > :03:02.banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.
:03:03. > :03:08.Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe
:03:09. > :03:12.needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to
:03:13. > :03:15.change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of
:03:16. > :03:20.the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems
:03:21. > :03:25.will not and UKIP simply cannot. Only the Conservatives will offer
:03:26. > :03:30.the three yards, with Conservative MEPs working alongside a
:03:31. > :03:35.conservative Prime Minister. For, really is and above all a
:03:36. > :03:40.referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. Your choice is simple. If you think
:03:41. > :03:44.Britain is better off in Europe, vote for the Liberal Democrats. The
:03:45. > :03:49.Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, fighting to keep Britain in Europe
:03:50. > :03:53.and in work. There is nothing patriotic about UKIP's desire to
:03:54. > :03:57.pull-out. That is playing Russian roulette with Britain's economy and
:03:58. > :04:01.jobs. The Conservatives are flirting with exit and Labour lacks the
:04:02. > :04:08.courage to speak up. Thought Liberal Democrat on May the 22nd to say in
:04:09. > :04:13.Europe for jobs and security. Sarah Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from
:04:14. > :04:18.Labour. The European elections are about who represents you. They are
:04:19. > :04:23.not a referendum on a referendum. Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs
:04:24. > :04:26.and growth first. A guarantee to help young people into work,
:04:27. > :04:30.reforming energy markets so that bills are brought down for good.
:04:31. > :04:35.Labour believes in reform in Europe, but within. It is David Cameron who
:04:36. > :04:39.is risking your job and Britain's prosperity because of divisions in
:04:40. > :04:44.his own party. Labour MEPs put British interests first. Our fourth
:04:45. > :04:52.opening statement from Patrick O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a
:04:53. > :04:55.declining regional trade bloc in an era of global trade. It is a
:04:56. > :05:00.20th-century political project designed to prevent conflict in
:05:01. > :05:04.Europe that is now reawakening old hostilities. It is an attempt to
:05:05. > :05:12.force on the European people European this as their primary
:05:13. > :05:16.collective identity. It has hollowed out British democracy and now we do
:05:17. > :05:22.not even control our own borders. That is why you should vote UKIP.
:05:23. > :05:24.That is the opening statements. Let's get on with the debate. Why
:05:25. > :05:31.should people vote in the selections? If you vote UKIP, we can
:05:32. > :05:34.deliver an earthquake that will rock the foundations of British politics
:05:35. > :05:40.and the European political class. We can send a signal to Europe that
:05:41. > :05:45.Britain has had enough, that Britain wants to retain its nation state
:05:46. > :05:50.status and regain political power and the ability to forge trading
:05:51. > :05:56.deals across the world. Britain leading Europe to freedom twice in
:05:57. > :05:59.the last century through bloodshed. We feel that a UKIP win in those
:06:00. > :06:06.elections could help Britain set an example to lead European nation
:06:07. > :06:10.states back to free assembly again. Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that
:06:11. > :06:15.many Tory voters will vote you clip to keep you honest, to keep your
:06:16. > :06:18.feet to the fire? Whatever you think of the European Parliament or the
:06:19. > :06:23.EU, the fact is that the European Parliament as equal power with the
:06:24. > :06:29.28 governments of the EU. When David Cameron delivered the first cut to
:06:30. > :06:32.the EU budget, the first ever cut, he needed a strong team of
:06:33. > :06:39.Conservative MEPs working alongside him. But many of your supporters
:06:40. > :06:48.will vote for UKIP for the reasons I gave. Many will vote Liberal
:06:49. > :06:50.Democrat. Not very many. Many of our supporters will vote for us because
:06:51. > :06:54.we are the only party trying to change the EU and offer reform. We
:06:55. > :07:00.have offered renegotiation and a referendum. And how would you vote
:07:01. > :07:05.in such a referendum? We have no idea whether he would vote yes or
:07:06. > :07:11.no. Let him answer. I will answer that question. If the EU continues
:07:12. > :07:14.on this road, towards a United States of Europe, and if there was
:07:15. > :07:20.no change at the time of the referendum, then I would probably
:07:21. > :07:23.vote to leave. You have no confidence in David Cameron? We
:07:24. > :07:25.Javier Culson opportunity to read negotiate our relationship with
:07:26. > :07:29.Europe and the Conservatives are at the forefront of that agenda. David
:07:30. > :07:37.Cameron have not given a list of demands. He said that if things do
:07:38. > :07:43.not change, he will probably vote to leave, is that right? If at the time
:07:44. > :07:46.of the referendum, things had not changed, I would vote to leave and
:07:47. > :07:53.we have a golden opportunity to perform the agenda. Richard, the
:07:54. > :08:01.last time the British people had a say on this was over 40 years ago.
:08:02. > :08:06.Under a Labour government. Which was deeply divided on the issue. And
:08:07. > :08:12.that was a say on the common market. Today's EU is a very different
:08:13. > :08:17.animal from the common market. Why can we not, under another Labour
:08:18. > :08:23.government, have another vote? First of all, we want it to be more than a
:08:24. > :08:27.free trading area. We make no apologies about that. But in the
:08:28. > :08:31.elections because this is half of Britain's exports and investment. If
:08:32. > :08:34.you care about your job and business, you cannot hear from the
:08:35. > :08:38.party of government that they probably want you to leave because
:08:39. > :08:42.the CBI, the engineering employees in Federation and the chimp of
:08:43. > :08:48.commerce, 80% of them say it is necessary to stay in. So why not
:08:49. > :08:51.give us a vote? When David Cameron says he wants to repatriate social
:08:52. > :08:57.powers, he means takeaway maternity rights and holidays. If the case is
:08:58. > :09:04.so strong, why not give us an in-out vote? David Miliband has said that
:09:05. > :09:09.there will be a referendum if there was a proposal to change powers. Why
:09:10. > :09:13.wait? This is based on a series of reforms. Labour has a set of
:09:14. > :09:16.reforms. David Cameron is silent about what they would be. That is
:09:17. > :09:20.because he knows that if he put them forward, they would either be
:09:21. > :09:24.unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic backbenchers and he would be out of
:09:25. > :09:31.a job, or they would be unacceptable to European leaders. Why is your
:09:32. > :09:35.leader missing in action? Ed Miliband is unable to say even the
:09:36. > :09:42.positive things that you are saying. He has run away from the argument.
:09:43. > :09:46.He actually said there would not be a referendum in his time.
:09:47. > :09:54.For a conservative to say they will have a referendum but not give the
:09:55. > :10:00.reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity
:10:01. > :10:04.in that debate. He said that the Eurosceptic view was to leave
:10:05. > :10:10.Britain like Billy no mates. I can say that he is the best qualified
:10:11. > :10:14.person to say that. Sarah Ludford, you have said that lots of people
:10:15. > :10:17.are going to vote Lib Dem but that is not what the polls are saying.
:10:18. > :10:21.You are 7% in two polls this morning. Eclectic's decision to
:10:22. > :10:27.champion Europe has been a disaster for you. You face wet out. We swayed
:10:28. > :10:32.a lot of people our way with Nick Clegg's debate. Where is the
:10:33. > :10:38.evidence? We are the only party that is completely united, saying that we
:10:39. > :10:40.are wanting to stay in. It is essential because formally and jobs
:10:41. > :10:46.are supported by our trade with the EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding
:10:47. > :10:50.a lot of moderate conservative voters are actually fed up with the
:10:51. > :10:59.Tories being split and divided all over the place. Syed Kamall saying
:11:00. > :11:03.that we might vote in rout. -- in or out. We are consistent. A poll in
:11:04. > :11:08.London showed that 18% would vote for us. I am delighted about that.
:11:09. > :11:13.London is not the whole country, it may surprise you. We need to move on
:11:14. > :11:17.to immigration, an important issue. We are a member of the EU and the
:11:18. > :11:22.rules say that with a few caveats, our fellow EU citizens are free to
:11:23. > :11:28.come here if they want. Why can we not just accept that? Britain has a
:11:29. > :11:31.proud record when it comes to immigration. We have been open to
:11:32. > :11:35.people across the world for centuries. But we welcome people who
:11:36. > :11:40.come to our country to contribute to pay taxes and two wards are a
:11:41. > :11:43.society positively. But there are three real concerns that we have to
:11:44. > :11:47.address. The first one is numbers, and secondly people who may come
:11:48. > :11:52.here not to work but for benefits, and thirdly, getting a hang of the
:11:53. > :11:56.numbers. I think it is shameful that only this week the office for
:11:57. > :12:01.National said that they did not collect sufficient figures under a
:12:02. > :12:05.Labour government. 350,000 extra people came in and they did not
:12:06. > :12:11.count the numbers. That is the size of a city like Cardiff. That is
:12:12. > :12:16.shameful. 350,000 came from all over the place. Do you accept the free
:12:17. > :12:20.movement of peoples within the EU? I accept and am open to people who
:12:21. > :12:25.want to come here and contribute. In the same way... Do you accept the
:12:26. > :12:32.free movement of peoples within the EU? In our manifesto, we have said
:12:33. > :12:35.it is an issue for reform. We have to make sure that people are coming
:12:36. > :12:43.here to work and contribute positively, not simply to come here
:12:44. > :12:46.and take advantage of the system. I will tell you what else is
:12:47. > :12:49.shameful. What is shameful is David Cameron making a pledge to the
:12:50. > :12:53.British people on an issue that they really care about, to bring net
:12:54. > :12:58.immigration down to the tens of thousands a year, having no means of
:12:59. > :13:02.fulfilling that pledge. And we see now it is back up to 212,000 a year
:13:03. > :13:07.because we have no volume control and no quality control from
:13:08. > :13:11.immigration from our neighbours. And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP
:13:12. > :13:16.address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You
:13:17. > :13:20.do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single
:13:21. > :13:30.member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an
:13:31. > :13:40.MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of
:13:41. > :13:47.-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that
:13:48. > :13:54.worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not
:13:55. > :13:56.object to bilateral agreements with countries with similar living
:13:57. > :14:00.standards to us. France, the Netherlands, that works fine. But
:14:01. > :14:04.these three people want Turkey to join the EU, 75 Na Li and people
:14:05. > :14:17.running our country, only 10% of which... Syed Kamall is Michael year
:14:18. > :14:20.to say whether they are in favour of free movement for work, not for
:14:21. > :14:29.benefits... That is what I'm saying. You said you were unable to
:14:30. > :14:32.be clear. That leaves 2 million British people absolutely unsure as
:14:33. > :14:36.to whether they would have a right to continue to live in other
:14:37. > :14:40.countries. It is a two-way street. You are putting those people in a
:14:41. > :14:42.state of uncertainty. EU migrants have been good for the British
:14:43. > :14:46.economy and contribute far more than they take out in services and
:14:47. > :14:53.benefits. One in seven businesses were founded in -- by migrants. And
:14:54. > :15:00.they cannot just turn up and claim benefits. The coalition government
:15:01. > :15:04.has legislated to make sure that they cannot claim for three months.
:15:05. > :15:12.They will not be able to claim for more than six months. Richard
:15:13. > :15:19.Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A spectacular mistake for Labour to
:15:20. > :15:24.allow EU migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in the UK from
:15:25. > :15:28.2004." Why should we trust a party that makes spectacular mistakes and
:15:29. > :15:33.hasn't apologised for it? We accept it is a mistake and I apologise. We
:15:34. > :15:37.make a firm commitment for new EU states we will put down transitional
:15:38. > :15:40.controls. When I listen to the Conservatives and UKIP trying to
:15:41. > :15:45.re-write history, saying immigration was out of control, uncontrolled,
:15:46. > :15:50.open door, we hear it over and over again. It is not true. Anyone who
:15:51. > :15:56.was around at the time... Come on, Richard. Hold on, you undercounted
:15:57. > :16:01.by 350,000. You were letting 2 million in over the years, an
:16:02. > :16:08.under-counted by 350,000 people you didn't know came in. You should have
:16:09. > :16:14.tightened the benefit rules. The Conservative MEP today has, in four
:16:15. > :16:18.years in government in Britain, is trying it blame the previous Labour
:16:19. > :16:23.Government over the fact they won't count people in or people out.
:16:24. > :16:30.Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for people to come to the country and
:16:31. > :16:35.benefits are changing, changing the habitual residence test and we are
:16:36. > :16:39.going to say that migrants can't come and claim child benefit if
:16:40. > :16:42.their children are outside the country. Labour a has shown they
:16:43. > :16:47.have listened to concerns but we say it is a stronger, better, country
:16:48. > :16:50.because it is diverse and multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy
:16:51. > :16:55.politics from all the Peters. They are committed to a system with no
:16:56. > :16:59.volume control and no quality control. You talk about benefits as
:17:00. > :17:04.if it is only out of work benefits. In work benefits cost a lot of money
:17:05. > :17:12.for the British taxpayer. Big businesses bring in minimum wage
:17:13. > :17:17.workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool place What are you going to do? Have
:17:18. > :17:23.all the pensioners come back to Britain? How will will you fund the
:17:24. > :17:27.health care? Do you really think Spain and pour tu ghal their current
:17:28. > :17:33.situation, are going to turn their backs on British property owners
:17:34. > :17:39.with wealth? -- Portugal. They might not wanting pensioners to use their
:17:40. > :17:44.health service. Pensioners often come back to Britain to use the
:17:45. > :17:47.health service. You have shown it represents wealthy people's
:17:48. > :17:53.interests. A second Conservative Party. Hang on a minute... Blue
:17:54. > :17:57.collar wages were down. They want it character for the National Health
:17:58. > :18:01.Service, have cuts that go farther and comprehensive education. This is
:18:02. > :18:04.a debate on the wider politics between Conservatives and UKIP and
:18:05. > :18:09.Labour will... You can't both talk time. UKIP - they haven't thought it
:18:10. > :18:13.through, thousand they will have trade access in the EU, hasn't
:18:14. > :18:16.thought how they will have trade deals that the Liberal Democrats
:18:17. > :18:21.support, like with the United States: Would you have a cap on
:18:22. > :18:25.non-EU immigrants? We are not in favour of a cap. No cap on either.
:18:26. > :18:31.No. Well it is a target. It is a moving feast, as it were. Would you
:18:32. > :18:34.have a limit on non-EU limits? We have limits on quality. We have
:18:35. > :18:39.people who are skilled migrants coming in. Lip its? . By quality,
:18:40. > :18:46.not by quantity. -- Limits. How do you do that? We need to move
:18:47. > :18:50.on to foreign affairs. Should we pool more sovereignty to
:18:51. > :18:55.give the European Union more clout in foreign and defence matters? I'm
:18:56. > :19:00.Labour's defence and foreign affairs spokesperson. No we don't need to
:19:01. > :19:04.pull more powers into Europe. As we undertake this live debate there are
:19:05. > :19:09.guns being fired in Ukraine as we speak. Europe is facing, for the
:19:10. > :19:13.first time, since the end of the Second World War, Armies crossing
:19:14. > :19:18.national borders and floatening peace. Doesn't it -- threatening
:19:19. > :19:22.peace. Doesn't it need to come together of the We don't need more
:19:23. > :19:29.powers. We need political will. With Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has
:19:30. > :19:33.-- we have fallen short in the sanctions. But it is Europe, not
:19:34. > :19:38.Britain. Remember Putin calling Britain little England a small
:19:39. > :19:42.island with no influence. Labour doesn't agree with that. But if
:19:43. > :19:45.that's the mindset that allows someone like Vladimir Putin to send
:19:46. > :19:49.troops across borders threatening peace, it is worrying. And when we
:19:50. > :19:53.have, in UKIP a party that say they admire Putin and support his
:19:54. > :19:59.policies, that is no recipe for how Europe should be wrong. I was
:20:00. > :20:06.waiting for that. Let me ask him. We don't admire Putin as a leader...
:20:07. > :20:10.Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage said, was he admired him as a
:20:11. > :20:14.political operator. Testifies Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good
:20:15. > :20:20.foreign policy was speaking softly but carrying a big stick. The EU
:20:21. > :20:24.shouts its mouthed off while carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy
:20:25. > :20:28.that you wiebl it stand up to Putin over the Ukraine. -- that you would
:20:29. > :20:33.be able to stand up. Do you admire what Putin is doing in the Ukraine?
:20:34. > :20:38.No. What matters in foreign policy is the outcould. We have a terrible
:20:39. > :20:43.outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, and Georgia... What would UKIP do?
:20:44. > :20:48.What u skip would do, would be to keep our people safe -- UKIP.
:20:49. > :20:55.How? And not commit our Foreign Office and troops Foreign wars.
:20:56. > :20:59.Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel
:21:00. > :21:04.Farage said in previous debates that Britain should leave the EU because,
:21:05. > :21:10."We have had enough of endless foreign wars." Which wars has the EU
:21:11. > :21:13.taken us into? The EU has ban very important factor in the push towards
:21:14. > :21:23.trying to get military intervention in Syria, for example. What wars has
:21:24. > :21:28.the etch U taken us into it -- EU. Fortunately the EU doesn't have its
:21:29. > :21:35.own army yet. It has wanted to sign up to an expansionist agenda. Did it
:21:36. > :21:40.want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP opposed Iraq, so did most of the
:21:41. > :21:46.mainline Europeans. Germany was against Syria and Libya. No EU
:21:47. > :21:51.policy. We had an Anglo French deal on Syria. A by lateral deal. A
:21:52. > :21:57.European dimension. No, buy lateral. We have a European Union that wants
:21:58. > :22:01.to expand ever-more into other people's spheres of influence. If we
:22:02. > :22:07.are going to stand up to what Putin is do, which obviously Nigel Farage
:22:08. > :22:10.has no intentions of doing, you have to get your act together on economic
:22:11. > :22:15.sanctions and diplomatic force and in trade matters, in supporting
:22:16. > :22:21.eastern European countries. Sayeria, who and whose army? And NATO and
:22:22. > :22:25.working transatlanticically, is important through NATO. I will come
:22:26. > :22:32.to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said that the idea of an EU Army was, "A
:22:33. > :22:37.dangerous fantasy that is simply not true ""Why then, are we already
:22:38. > :22:40.working on etch U-owned and controlled drones -- EU-owned and
:22:41. > :22:47.the President of the European Parliament has said that the
:22:48. > :22:50.majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not
:22:51. > :22:54.speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will
:22:55. > :22:58.not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is
:22:59. > :23:02.President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which
:23:03. > :23:06.can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe
:23:07. > :23:11.because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks
:23:12. > :23:15.that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working
:23:16. > :23:21.together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO
:23:22. > :23:26.job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO,
:23:27. > :23:31.in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each
:23:32. > :23:36.other -- on common equipment, so they can talk to each other. The EU
:23:37. > :23:39.has a role but not an army. So a European defence agency, that helps
:23:40. > :23:42.our defence industries and those jobs are extremely important and
:23:43. > :23:48.would be threatened if the Conservatives and UKIP took us out
:23:49. > :23:52.of Europe but it is 100 years since the start of the fist world war.
:23:53. > :23:56.Remember that Europe was set up to try to get a secure peace within
:23:57. > :24:00.Europe T succeeded. Now look on Ukraine but also on the southern
:24:01. > :24:05.borders to the Arab Spring countries in North Africa. It is more
:24:06. > :24:09.important than ever that we work to keep keep peace and stability on our
:24:10. > :24:13.borders. Can I say to Syed and the Conservative MEPs. You talk about
:24:14. > :24:17.the three Rs, I have a fourth, retreat. If you take us out of the
:24:18. > :24:24.European Union, it will be the worse retreat by Britain since Gallipoli.
:24:25. > :24:28.Let him answer If he wants answers -- the British Parliament is the
:24:29. > :24:32.right place with a British Foreign Secretary to decide our foreign
:24:33. > :24:37.policy. You say that, but can I quote David Cameron, this is germain
:24:38. > :24:42.to what you are saying, David Cameron said "There is no doubt that
:24:43. > :24:46.we are more powerful than Washington, Beijing and Delhi,
:24:47. > :24:49.because we are a powerful player in the European Union." Do you agree?
:24:50. > :24:52.He is saying that there are times when it comes to international
:24:53. > :24:56.foreign affairs when you have to cooperate with partners. Often they
:24:57. > :25:01.are EU partners but often they are not. The problem we have...
:25:02. > :25:07.Washington have made it very clear that it wants Britain to talk
:25:08. > :25:12.through Brussels. No, not at all. Talk through the French and
:25:13. > :25:17.Italians, come on, wake up? Through the EU collective. I'm vice chair of
:25:18. > :25:20.the EU delegation. I hear it from the American counterparts. They want
:25:21. > :25:26.the EU to get itself together and not least on Ukraine. Why should our
:25:27. > :25:29.sovereignty be at the behest of... ? I want to hear from Syed calm
:25:30. > :25:32.amplgts the British Parliament is the right place to decide our
:25:33. > :25:37.foreign poll sinchts sometimes we work with our European partners,
:25:38. > :25:40.sometimes we work with our non-European partners. It is our
:25:41. > :25:47.choice to pull sovereign trito work together. G, we move on to our foirt
:25:48. > :25:54.area. We hear a lot in this country about MPs expenses. Snted the real
:25:55. > :26:00.scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't the real scandal, the MEPs gravy
:26:01. > :26:06.train? You all have your snouts? The trough? I don't think so. There is
:26:07. > :26:10.transpancy. The way we use our expenses is online and anyone can
:26:11. > :26:16.ask to examine those. We have actually voted to reform MEPs'
:26:17. > :26:19.allowances. We regularly vote but unfortunately the majority in
:26:20. > :26:26.Parliament don't. Have you voted to cut them? Yes. By how much? About
:26:27. > :26:30.5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies I never fly except across the
:26:31. > :26:38.Atlantic. Difficult to do it any other way. I didn't swim.
:26:39. > :26:43.But we voted for economy flutes. We voted for European Parliament policy
:26:44. > :26:47.of transparency which other groups haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote.
:26:48. > :26:53.They don't earn their salaries. Dhoent do anything. They should hand
:26:54. > :26:56.their salaries and allowances back. You can't ause UKIP of being on the
:26:57. > :27:02.gravy train and the other that we don't claim our attendance allowance
:27:03. > :27:06.because our MEPs are not there. Your attendance allowance is if you are
:27:07. > :27:10.there, you are saying we don't turn up You are in the building and claim
:27:11. > :27:14.the allowances. You are not an MEP, UKIP are so ashamed of what their
:27:15. > :27:19.MEPs have done in Brussels, they didn't field a sitting MEP for
:27:20. > :27:23.today's debate. I think each party decides who it wishes to field. I
:27:24. > :27:29.have the honour of being the UKIP representative. I would say by going
:27:30. > :27:36.in the past few weeks, xeeming to me saying - we are sick of the others.
:27:37. > :27:41.-- people saying to me. : We are quite excited. Can I ask Patrick
:27:42. > :27:46.O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord and his party is strong in the polls
:27:47. > :27:51.today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't you also struck a chord with hip
:27:52. > :27:56.crasscy. Two of your MEPs were jailed for expenses and benefits'
:27:57. > :28:00.fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds.
:28:01. > :28:05.Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and
:28:06. > :28:08.he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling
:28:09. > :28:15.other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I
:28:16. > :28:18.have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not
:28:19. > :28:23.entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and
:28:24. > :28:27.the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue
:28:28. > :28:30.the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain
:28:31. > :28:37.out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work.
:28:38. > :28:41.Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political
:28:42. > :28:47.party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way
:28:48. > :28:51.before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of
:28:52. > :28:55.course hit David Cameron and the Conservative Party hard as it should
:28:56. > :29:00.do. But you are right, even in my own region you have UKIP candidates
:29:01. > :29:03.and councillors who have been charged with fraudulently filling
:29:04. > :29:08.out election papers and other shot lifting. Another independent inquiry
:29:09. > :29:12.found he made racist comments. We had a European candidate last week
:29:13. > :29:17.in Hertfordshire who got a parking ticket from the police and called
:29:18. > :29:23.the police fascists. These people aren't here.
:29:24. > :29:27.I'll let you have a quick reply. We can bring up parochial cases. Let
:29:28. > :29:31.him answer. Not so long ago a Liberal Democrat councillor was sent
:29:32. > :29:36.down for firebombing, I don't say they are a bunch of arsonists, but
:29:37. > :29:43.now I think, Nick Clegg might have burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad
:29:44. > :29:48.you pronounced that word carefully. Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they
:29:49. > :29:54.are strongly critical of the EU's financials saying "Errors permist in
:29:55. > :30:00.all main spending areas", the financials are poorly managed. It is
:30:01. > :30:06.a shambles And that's something that all parties agree on. As we agree on
:30:07. > :30:09.expenses, the British parties are at the forefront of transpancy. Every
:30:10. > :30:13.year when we vote for the discharge of the budget, the Conservatives
:30:14. > :30:16.also vote for it but we don't get enough MEPs from other countries to
:30:17. > :30:19.investigate in favour. The Liberal Democrats have put forward to make
:30:20. > :30:25.each Finance Minister, George Osborne and his counterpart to sign
:30:26. > :30:29.a declaration to say all EU money is properly spent in my country.
:30:30. > :30:33.Funnily enough they don't want to do that but I look forward to you
:30:34. > :30:39.confirming that George Osborne will sign it. All the time we hear it is
:30:40. > :30:44.about the money we pay in, about ?150 per family per year. What about
:30:45. > :30:49.the money that comes back? ?1. 5 billion that comes to Britain's
:30:50. > :30:53.regions because of being in Europe. I myself helped to negotiate a fund
:30:54. > :30:57.to help Britain's food banks to ensure so. Poorest and most
:30:58. > :31:01.destitute people... Isn't it our money that went there first. Can I
:31:02. > :31:04.tell you the Conservative-led Government have blocked us from
:31:05. > :31:07.claiming that money. If you want to have the clearest choice at these
:31:08. > :31:18.European elections, it is between... Tell us why. It affects our rebate.
:31:19. > :31:25.Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He is quite right. Lib Dems fought to
:31:26. > :31:29.make sure that we apply for money to help with flooding. That is what the
:31:30. > :31:33.Tories were blocking. If you want the clearest example at the European
:31:34. > :31:38.elections, the Conservative Party and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers
:31:39. > :31:44.bonuses, and then blocked a Labour victory to get money for free
:31:45. > :31:51.banks. We need to move on to the future. It is important and people
:31:52. > :31:54.are watching. The EU's Justice Minister says that we need to build
:31:55. > :32:01.a United States of Europe with the commission as its government. Is she
:32:02. > :32:07.right? Not at all. But the future, if we take the next ten years,
:32:08. > :32:10.thinks about climate change and the fact that we are not going to hit of
:32:11. > :32:15.the two degrees target. Europe has led and needs to lead towards
:32:16. > :32:19.getting a new sustainable world. It is the political will to use these
:32:20. > :32:23.powers, so she is wrong. It is about the threats from abroad. Labour
:32:24. > :32:27.reforms like getting a commissioner for growth and rebalancing the
:32:28. > :32:31.budget, reforming the common agricultural policy, all of those
:32:32. > :32:38.things will need to happen to make Europe more democratic and open. But
:32:39. > :32:43.against the rise of Brazil and China... We do not need more
:32:44. > :32:48.treaties and powers. We need more action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah
:32:49. > :32:53.Ludford, you would sign up to that? No. Unless they do not think that
:32:54. > :32:59.should concentrate on institutional matters. What we need to do is
:33:00. > :33:03.concentrate on making Europe progrowth and competitive and create
:33:04. > :33:09.more jobs in a competitive world. We need more trade deals to open up our
:33:10. > :33:14.exports, we need to streamline the EU. We need less red tape and
:33:15. > :33:18.Liberal Democrats have done a lot on that. We need better scrutiny of EU
:33:19. > :33:26.legislation at West Munster because the national parties... More powers
:33:27. > :33:35.or less for the EU government? In some areas, I would like to see it
:33:36. > :33:38.slimmed down. Including, I am not sure whether the EU should be
:33:39. > :33:44.funding food banks. I think that is a national responsibility. Dearie
:33:45. > :33:49.me. The EU have to concentrate on the economy and climate change. This
:33:50. > :33:53.is the coalition talking. If we want to fritter away political capital on
:33:54. > :33:57.things which are interfering in national matters, then we do not
:33:58. > :34:02.have the support to tackle those big challenges. Would you still want to
:34:03. > :34:11.join the Euro one-day? Now is not a good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to
:34:12. > :34:15.still be sound, which is why... Did not ask you that. Do you want to
:34:16. > :34:19.join the Euro one-day? If it is a success and it did the economy. Now
:34:20. > :34:27.is not the time but in principle, the idea of a single currency has
:34:28. > :34:31.advantages. That was a yes. We are not ruling it out for ever but not
:34:32. > :34:36.in the foreseeable future. It is not on the horizon. What would our
:34:37. > :34:41.relationship be with Europe in the future if UKIP got its way and we
:34:42. > :34:45.left? We would be trading partners with Europe and we would seek
:34:46. > :34:50.partnership in specific serious. I'd tell you what, can I just say...
:34:51. > :34:53.Would we be Norway? We would be stronger than Norway because we are
:34:54. > :34:58.the biggest export market in the Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke
:34:59. > :35:02.trading agreement reflecting our enormous importance. Not on
:35:03. > :35:08.services, which make up 80% of the economy. We are the biggest export
:35:09. > :35:12.market in the Eurozone. Our biggest exports are services and they would
:35:13. > :35:17.have to agree to free trade and services. They still have not. Can I
:35:18. > :35:22.read you something? Let me read you something. There would be a free
:35:23. > :35:27.trade agreement in place the day after our exit. Germany would demand
:35:28. > :35:33.no less. Who said that? Not somebody from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr
:35:34. > :35:37.business. He is talking about goods, not services. Norway has that
:35:38. > :35:42.and they have no say. You would have to accept the EU rules without any
:35:43. > :35:47.say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let me give you another. Enough. One is
:35:48. > :35:54.enough. Syed Kamall, is it not looking forward pretty much Mission:
:35:55. > :36:01.Impossible for Mr Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of
:36:02. > :36:08.powers that would satisfy your irreconcilables? My father was a bus
:36:09. > :36:11.driver in the 50s and one of the reasons I am here today is because
:36:12. > :36:14.he told me that you can achieve anything if you work hard. He said
:36:15. > :36:18.to me, do not listen to the doubters. When people tell you that
:36:19. > :36:22.something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations, not
:36:23. > :36:25.yours. They said that we could not pull Britain out of the bailout
:36:26. > :36:30.mechanism but we did it. He said we could not be to a -- veto European
:36:31. > :36:36.treaty and we did that. They said we would never cut the budget and we
:36:37. > :36:40.did that. The first ever. But overall, we are paying more into the
:36:41. > :36:45.European budget. And they are not sticking to it. More, not less. They
:36:46. > :36:48.say that we cannot achieve reform but we have achieved reform and we
:36:49. > :36:53.are at the forefront of that. Science's father came to Britain
:36:54. > :37:04.because Britain was open and looking outward. What the Conservatives now
:37:05. > :37:10.have, with leaderless Cameron, is an inward looking attitude. They are
:37:11. > :37:15.allowing the rise of UKIP. They are putting so much at risk. People
:37:16. > :37:19.should vote Labour. We are going to have to stop now. No point talking
:37:20. > :37:25.because we are about to finish. I think you all for a spirited debate.
:37:26. > :37:28.I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg will have learned a lot about how to
:37:29. > :37:31.debate. -- Nigel Farage. It's just gone 3pm, and you're
:37:32. > :37:34.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who
:37:35. > :37:35.leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in twenty
:37:36. > :37:51.In the East Midlands: As protestors set up camp, could the fracking
:37:52. > :37:55.bonanza be about to start? We'll hear from the boss of a drilling
:37:56. > :38:02.company with plans for our region and the people determined to stop
:38:03. > :38:08.him. How are you going to regulate when you drill a mild downturn left
:38:09. > :38:11.and trial `` drill down for another mile.
:38:12. > :38:15.And are we worse off than the rest of the country? We'll be looking at
:38:16. > :38:22.claims that wages have fallen further here than anywhere else in
:38:23. > :38:28.the UK. The wages are up. I don't think wages are going up at all. In
:38:29. > :38:31.some city regions, we are very lucky to have a job.
:38:32. > :38:35.Hello, I'm Marie Ashby and my guests this week are Jessica Lee, the
:38:36. > :38:39.Conservative MP for Erewash, and Jon Ashworth, the Labour MP for
:38:40. > :38:43.Leicester South. And first, it's been the political story of the week
:38:44. > :38:46.and the East Midlands has had a big part to play. The resignation of the
:38:47. > :38:49.Culture Secretary, Maria Miller, in yet another expenses row. The whole
:38:50. > :38:52.process began with a formal complaint to Parliament from the
:38:53. > :38:56.Bassetlaw MP, John Mann, who made strong demands for the Culture
:38:57. > :38:58.Secretary to go. When she did, the subsequent reshuffle saw
:38:59. > :39:01.Loughborough's Nicky Morgan promoted within the Treasury and given the
:39:02. > :39:09.role of Women's Minister, which gives her a seat in the Cabinet.
:39:10. > :39:20.Jessica Lee, what's been your reaction to the week's events? I
:39:21. > :39:28.think the promotion of Nicky Morgan, who is a very talented MP,
:39:29. > :39:37.and she will do a great job, is a positive outcome. Before John and I
:39:38. > :39:42.were elected, the expenses scandal, I remember watching it and being
:39:43. > :39:46.horrified. I do think it is going to take time for the public to trust
:39:47. > :39:54.all additions again about this matter. You are stepping down at
:39:55. > :40:05.this term of Parliament. Is this kind of hounding putting you off?
:40:06. > :40:14.No. I enjoy being an MP but I really enjoyed the law and my background is
:40:15. > :40:19.being a barrister. I really see my future in the law. It is a difficult
:40:20. > :40:25.decision but I'm very lucky to have served a great community. I still
:40:26. > :40:33.have another year so it will be business as usual. John, any
:40:34. > :40:38.sympathy for Maria Miller? Not at all. The way in which she did her
:40:39. > :40:43.apology to the House of Commons was quite frankly insulting. Then the
:40:44. > :40:46.way in which people suggested it was because of her role in press
:40:47. > :40:51.regulation was offensive. When people are really struggling at the
:40:52. > :40:54.moment, to see this Cabinet Mr carrying on like this, it sticks in
:40:55. > :41:01.peoples throats. David Cameron should have intervened sooner.
:41:02. > :41:04.Protestors from all over the country are gathering in the East Midlands
:41:05. > :41:07.to fight plans to carry out fracking. They've set up camp in
:41:08. > :41:10.Nottinghamshire, convinced that the first application to start drilling
:41:11. > :41:15.is only weeks away. Fracking's a controversial new technique to drill
:41:16. > :41:18.deep underground. It uses high pressure water and chemicals to
:41:19. > :41:21.release gas. Large parts of the East Midlands are said to be rich in
:41:22. > :41:23.potential shale gas, with licences covering many parts of
:41:24. > :41:28.Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire already granted.
:41:29. > :41:31.In a moment, we'll be speaking to the Chief Operating Officer of a
:41:32. > :41:34.company looking to carry out fracking here, but first, Helen
:41:35. > :41:41.McCulloch's been to the protestors' camp near Retford to meet the people
:41:42. > :41:44.keen to stop him. In a word in the north
:41:45. > :41:55.Nottinghamshire a protest camp is growing. I came down from Scotland.
:41:56. > :41:59.I heard they were setting up here. At the moment they are objecting to
:42:00. > :42:04.extract methane gas from below the ground. But with this area petition
:42:05. > :42:08.league `` potentially rich in Shields gas it could become the new
:42:09. > :42:14.battle ground in the fight against fracking. The first application
:42:15. > :42:19.could come as soon as the next two weeks. Protest is here are making
:42:20. > :42:24.their plans. These companies make mistakes. They are using some
:42:25. > :42:44.horrible chemicals and the operation will miss `` mess with everything.
:42:45. > :42:50.This woman from the Green party is a regular visitor to the camp. She
:42:51. > :42:57.shares of the campaigns `` she said `` she says their campaigns. This is
:42:58. > :43:05.a joke. David Cameron says we are going to have robust measures but
:43:06. > :43:12.that means lies. There is no regulation. Tell me how you're going
:43:13. > :43:16.to regulate when you drill a mile down, turn left and drill down
:43:17. > :43:22.another mile. The Green party is strongly opposed to fracturing and
:43:23. > :43:28.wants to see the money spent instead on renewable energy. Solar energy
:43:29. > :43:31.worldwide produces more jobs than the fossil fuels injury combined.
:43:32. > :43:37.This is enormous. These are local jobs. Here in the East midlands we
:43:38. > :43:43.could have more wind farms and we could invest in tidal power. We have
:43:44. > :43:49.got the sea surrounding us so why are we not investing in technology
:43:50. > :43:55.that already exists and which would produce a lot of local jobs? To
:43:56. > :44:01.produce just 10% of the gas we need in this country, we are talking
:44:02. > :44:09.about 300 wells every year for the next ten years. That is 3000 wells
:44:10. > :44:12.drilled over ten years. But fracking companies have the backing of the
:44:13. > :44:18.Prime Minister and are casting their eyes over the Prime Minister. ``
:44:19. > :44:22.over the East Midlands. Well, if fracking does go ahead, it
:44:23. > :44:25.looks like there'll be lots of protests along the way. Let's speak
:44:26. > :44:28.to John Blaymires, the chief operation officer of IGas, which has
:44:29. > :44:32.an exploration and development licence for the north of our region.
:44:33. > :44:42.So John, first of all, where are you with your plans? We have licences in
:44:43. > :44:47.the region and we actually operate already some 20 oil fields in the
:44:48. > :44:57.area and these oilfields have been there for decades producing and
:44:58. > :45:01.wells being drilled. This is not something new we are talking about.
:45:02. > :45:09.There is a long history in the area of oil. But what about fracking? The
:45:10. > :45:13.first thing that has to happen is we have to explore and establish the
:45:14. > :45:20.presence of shale gas and ascertain whether it is economic clear track.
:45:21. > :45:24.That will entail at some point having to get the gas to flow and
:45:25. > :45:30.our expectation is that that will happen in 2015. What do you say to
:45:31. > :45:39.those protesters who say that fracking is not safe? We need to
:45:40. > :45:54.understand a few things. First of all, we are highly regulated. We are
:45:55. > :45:59.a very highly regulated industry. Can you regulate a pipe that is
:46:00. > :46:08.miles underground? The protesters say it is not possible. It is. The
:46:09. > :46:12.health and safety executive and the environment agency and the local
:46:13. > :46:15.planning officers and the local communities in which we operate
:46:16. > :46:21.watchers and monitor us on a daily basis. Jessica Lee, parts of your
:46:22. > :46:25.area in Derbyshire have the potential to produce this shale gas.
:46:26. > :46:34.Would you like to see it in your area? There are no specific plans in
:46:35. > :46:39.our area but people need reassurance and information. People need that
:46:40. > :46:47.knowledge so they understand the process. That is really in Portland.
:46:48. > :46:51.That is when MPs will have to take the lead. David Cameron has said
:46:52. > :46:56.communities will get a share of the profits from any temp back in those
:46:57. > :47:09.communities. There is a that make sense? They will get 1% of the
:47:10. > :47:15.revenues and that can amount to several million pounds per site over
:47:16. > :47:31.the life of that site. The government has also put in place
:47:32. > :47:37.business rates. That will be a huge boon for the local communities. The
:47:38. > :47:40.industry has undertaken to make those contributions to make sure the
:47:41. > :47:45.communities will get some benefit from this. The whole idea behind
:47:46. > :47:49.this is to ensure that wells the exchequer gets attacked the industry
:47:50. > :47:54.will pay, the local communities will get a share of that to reflect the
:47:55. > :48:03.fact they have this going on in their communities. Is that enough
:48:04. > :48:06.for you? It is a reasonable suggestion that communities should
:48:07. > :48:17.get some of those benefits but there are bigger questions. The regulatory
:48:18. > :48:22.regime needs to be strengthened. People have concerns about the
:48:23. > :48:31.chemicals used and everybody knows that these tremors have taken
:48:32. > :48:36.place. Are we going to have tremors in the East midlands? As a
:48:37. > :48:48.consequence of temp back, the answer would be no. `` fracking. Let's also
:48:49. > :48:53.put into context, it has happened once before, but let's put it into
:48:54. > :48:59.perspective. Professor Richard Davis in a report he issued preferred to
:49:00. > :49:05.it as the equivalent of jumping off a stepladder so we have to put some
:49:06. > :49:11.of this into some context. Particularly in the area, you are
:49:12. > :49:21.looking at an industry that historically has had these kinds of
:49:22. > :49:31.tremors on a regular basis. So we just need to get used to it then? I
:49:32. > :49:39.am not quite sure that's the case. We should not frighten people until
:49:40. > :49:44.we've got the facts. That is why the industry and representatives need to
:49:45. > :49:49.be clear what the facts are. People need to be well informed. The point
:49:50. > :49:57.about revenue going to the community is important but the most important
:49:58. > :50:05.thing is information. We as an industry have an obligation and one
:50:06. > :50:10.of our undertakings is about public engagement. It's about being
:50:11. > :50:17.transparent. We have to build the trust of the local communities in
:50:18. > :50:24.which we work. That is essential. And that could happen in 2015. Are
:50:25. > :50:30.you for it or against it? I figure need to know more. We have a problem
:50:31. > :50:35.with energy supply in this country so gas will have to be part of that.
:50:36. > :50:42.I personally think Cole should be part of it and I hope the government
:50:43. > :50:46.sorts out the coal mines. I think there is a role for gas but a lot of
:50:47. > :50:51.people in my constituency have raised concerns with me about the
:50:52. > :50:56.regulatory regime and whether this is environmentally safe. What you
:50:57. > :51:12.think about the protests we have seen? First of all, everyone is
:51:13. > :51:16.entitled to their own opinions. I support that in a sense because it
:51:17. > :51:24.is part of a democracy. The issue is often about trying to deal with the
:51:25. > :51:28.facts and that is the key issue. What we find when we engage with
:51:29. > :51:31.people and start talking about the facts is that people become more
:51:32. > :51:34.reassured. New figures just released say that
:51:35. > :51:40.the East Midlands has seen the biggest fall in take home pay in the
:51:41. > :51:43.country. According to the TUC, there's been an 8.7% fall in wages
:51:44. > :51:47.here since 2010. It found that the average weekly wage in the region
:51:48. > :51:50.had fallen by ?45.50, compared with a national average fall of ?40. The
:51:51. > :51:53.figure's even worse when compared with some of our neighbours. Workers
:51:54. > :52:00.in Yorkshire and Humberside have seen a ?35 fall and in the West
:52:01. > :52:03.Midlands, it was ?38. Of course, those figures were
:52:04. > :52:07.compiled by the TUC, who are hardly likely to say things are rosy. Other
:52:08. > :52:15.reports have suggested that wages are beginning to rise. So how are
:52:16. > :52:21.you feeling financially? Here's Des. The TUC say we're ?45 worse off
:52:22. > :52:25.since the recession but other reports say wages are on the up.
:52:26. > :52:33.Let's find out what people in Loughborough think. Our wages on the
:52:34. > :52:41.up? I think the wages are at and we are not in recession. I don't think
:52:42. > :52:47.wages are going about all. In some situations, we are very lucky to
:52:48. > :52:53.have a job still. Jobs are very hard to come by. Are we worse off or I
:52:54. > :53:00.wages on the up? We are on the up. Minimum wages on the up. Everybody
:53:01. > :53:06.else's wage has to stay the same. I don't think the recession is over.
:53:07. > :53:11.Some reports say wages are on the up and some on the down. I think they
:53:12. > :53:21.are on the down. I think they are on the increase. But the cost of living
:53:22. > :53:27.is rising. Wages at or down, let's ask Barry? I still think they are on
:53:28. > :53:37.their way down. Nobody has got any me spend. Our wages on the up or on
:53:38. > :53:41.the down? I would say on the up. People seem happier and that is
:53:42. > :53:45.always a good sign. Jon Ashworth, people in Loughborough
:53:46. > :53:49.very split there. Some say things aren't improving, some seeing wages
:53:50. > :53:54.going up. Maybe it's just taking a bit longer for improvements to reach
:53:55. > :53:59.everyone? People are really struggling. When you look at the
:54:00. > :54:04.different statistics, it shows you that actually people are worse off
:54:05. > :54:10.because wages have not been increasing when inflation has.
:54:11. > :54:19.People are ?1600 worse off under David Cameron. One person said they
:54:20. > :54:24.didn't think the recession was over. We have to look at confidence and
:54:25. > :54:27.people have to feel that confidence. We had the Derbyshire
:54:28. > :54:32.and Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire Chamber of Commerce
:54:33. > :54:36.condone to speak to a group of MPs and the business community they were
:54:37. > :54:45.saying that people at `` that things are on the up in terms of new jobs.
:54:46. > :54:48.We have over a million new jobs in the private sector and the business
:54:49. > :54:54.community was saying what follows from that is an increase in wages.
:54:55. > :55:02.These representatives were confident that would be the next step. The
:55:03. > :55:06.coalition says when you take tax cuts into account 90% of us have
:55:07. > :55:12.seen their income in `` an increase in our income of 2.5%. The coalition
:55:13. > :55:18.is talking about income tax, but it is not including the increase in
:55:19. > :55:21.National Insurance or VAT. Pensioners are paying more tax. The
:55:22. > :55:29.coalition are not in straight with you. There is a bigger tax burden
:55:30. > :55:36.under the Tories. You are worse off under David Cameron. That is not a
:55:37. > :55:39.surprise in reply. We have taken the poorest people in the country out of
:55:40. > :55:43.income tax altogether. This definitely makes a difference to
:55:44. > :55:52.people 's lives. Pensioners have been well supported. Giving people
:55:53. > :55:57.more responsibility over their pensions. The country is on the
:55:58. > :56:07.right path. Business confidence is up. But this is an issue that could
:56:08. > :56:14.settle the general election result. I think people take the view that
:56:15. > :56:17.the economy is central to a general election and the indicators at the
:56:18. > :56:21.moment is that the ball are cautiously optimistic as to the
:56:22. > :56:26.direction the country is going in. Unlike John, I would say it is
:56:27. > :56:33.because the government has protected the poorest in society. We have to
:56:34. > :56:47.create jobs and look at exporting around the world. Our saving ratios
:56:48. > :56:51.are falling. The reason for this bit of growth is because of an increase
:56:52. > :56:56.in consumption. But it is all on credit cards. Raising the minimum
:56:57. > :57:04.wage has got to be a step in the right direction though. I think the
:57:05. > :57:09.chamber of commerce are neutral and they say we need to be optimistic at
:57:10. > :57:12.this stage that it doesn't mean to say that we don't look out for our
:57:13. > :57:23.constituents and make sure people are being looked after. Some people
:57:24. > :57:27.would say the living wage is more important. Why aren't you
:57:28. > :57:35.concentrating on that? The living which has come into the debate
:57:36. > :57:39.nationally. At the House of Commons, the speaker made an announcement
:57:40. > :57:43.that everybody working in the House of Commons would get the living
:57:44. > :57:46.wage. I think there is an issue with it but I would concentrate on the
:57:47. > :57:53.overall picture which is about supporting businesses and helping
:57:54. > :57:58.people get back into work. I think there are positives for the country.
:57:59. > :58:04.As the economy grows, surely wages will rise. I think wages will
:58:05. > :58:16.probably rise but the problem is you well I've had three or four years of
:58:17. > :58:21.stagnation. George Osborne said he was going to have growth
:58:22. > :58:26.straightaway but actually he has failed because he has put the 80 at
:58:27. > :58:30.and has put taxes up and he kept too deeply in the early stages.
:58:31. > :58:34.Time now for a round up of some of the other stories from the week with
:58:35. > :58:41.our Political Editor, John Hess, in 60 seconds.
:58:42. > :58:44.And your starter for ten. Which East Midlands MP has complained that the
:58:45. > :58:54.final of University Challenge was an all male, all Oxbridge affair? No
:58:55. > :58:57.conferring. Richard the Lionheart. No, in fact it's the Ashfield's
:58:58. > :59:01.Gloria De Piero, Labour's Shadow Minister for Equality. And for a
:59:02. > :59:04.bonus, which East Midlands MP is now backing David Cameron after writing
:59:05. > :59:07.a letter of no confidence? Yes, North West Leicestershire's Andrew
:59:08. > :59:10.Bridgen. He's changed his mind because he says the PM has
:59:11. > :59:13.engineered dramatic improvements in Britain's fortunes. Elsewhere, the
:59:14. > :59:17.Government has answered the question of whether it will help the mining
:59:18. > :59:20.industry with a "yes". Well of sorts, offering ?10 million towards
:59:21. > :59:28.the phased closure of Thoresby Colliery in Nottinghamshire. We are
:59:29. > :59:31.keeping open the prospect of a private buyer. If they see an
:59:32. > :59:36.economic case they are free to do so. But unions say the money could
:59:37. > :59:45.have been used to access more coal seams and give the pit another four
:59:46. > :59:49.years of life. So back to women again and the lack
:59:50. > :59:53.of them. Maybe the universities need to have a quota! Did either of you
:59:54. > :59:57.fancy pitting your wits on University Challenge back in the
:59:58. > :00:06.day? I am not sure that would help to have tight quarters but all
:00:07. > :00:13.universities, all girls do very well at school. I don't think it is the
:00:14. > :00:27.way to go but we should see more women in public life. We should have
:00:28. > :00:30.Jessica in there. I am resuming my law career and we have never had a
:00:31. > :00:34.lady Lord Chief Justice. Thanks to my guests, Jessica and
:00:35. > :00:35.Jon. That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands. Now, back to
:00:36. > :00:39.Andrew Neil. risk. We have run out of time. --
:00:40. > :00:49.particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew.
:00:50. > :00:52.The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave
:00:53. > :01:02.Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in
:01:03. > :01:07.the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have
:01:08. > :01:12.just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the
:01:13. > :01:15.argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of
:01:16. > :01:19.people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about
:01:20. > :01:22.things that most people do not know much about. They know very little
:01:23. > :01:30.about how the European Parliament works, what an MEP is supposed to
:01:31. > :01:36.do. A lot of heat and not a lot of light. I've updated well, all of
:01:37. > :01:40.them, but the net effect is not going to encourage people to go out
:01:41. > :01:48.and vote and not many do. One thing that struck me was that on Europe,
:01:49. > :01:52.the Labour and Lib Dem positions are not that far apart. They are pretty
:01:53. > :01:56.much the same. And yet the knocks lots of each other. I suppose they
:01:57. > :02:01.feel that they had to do that because that is the format. I'd
:02:02. > :02:07.agree with Polly. Their word UKIP and the Tories to attack two we try
:02:08. > :02:11.to make it exciting, and we know the issues are important. But people out
:02:12. > :02:16.there have not heard of these individuals. It is not very
:02:17. > :02:20.exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions
:02:21. > :02:26.for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not
:02:27. > :02:31.know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is
:02:32. > :02:35.an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for
:02:36. > :02:37.many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took
:02:38. > :02:44.off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you
:02:45. > :02:48.wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual
:02:49. > :02:52.referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free
:02:53. > :02:55.movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did
:02:56. > :03:03.learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the
:03:04. > :03:09.outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate
:03:10. > :03:13.is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the
:03:14. > :03:18.other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn
:03:19. > :03:22.did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40
:03:23. > :03:25.came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would
:03:26. > :03:29.expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to
:03:30. > :03:34.agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think
:03:35. > :03:38.the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised
:03:39. > :03:41.debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors
:03:42. > :03:45.believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not
:03:46. > :03:51.actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all
:03:52. > :03:56.right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the
:03:57. > :04:02.battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.
:04:03. > :04:05.Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are
:04:06. > :04:11.closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not
:04:12. > :04:16.come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this
:04:17. > :04:21.stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side
:04:22. > :04:27.and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your
:04:28. > :04:33.houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into
:04:34. > :04:38.the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be
:04:39. > :04:43.better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,
:04:44. > :04:48.but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences? I
:04:49. > :04:51.think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster
:04:52. > :04:57.that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come
:04:58. > :05:01.first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr
:05:02. > :05:04.village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that
:05:05. > :05:10.despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the
:05:11. > :05:16.overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget
:05:17. > :05:22.blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership
:05:23. > :05:25.is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in
:05:26. > :05:30.the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron
:05:31. > :05:35.comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it
:05:36. > :05:40.headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said
:05:41. > :05:46.that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see
:05:47. > :05:52.them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the
:05:53. > :05:56.sun will be about David Cameron's personal leadership and his grip on
:05:57. > :06:00.the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes
:06:01. > :06:07.around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The
:06:08. > :06:11.Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in
:06:12. > :06:18.the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was
:06:19. > :06:24.the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was
:06:25. > :06:31.because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when
:06:32. > :06:37.he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often
:06:38. > :06:42.that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile.
:06:43. > :06:46.It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to
:06:47. > :06:51.be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is
:06:52. > :06:54.fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to
:06:55. > :06:58.do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have
:06:59. > :07:04.to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to
:07:05. > :07:08.where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the
:07:09. > :07:14.Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to
:07:15. > :07:19.happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg
:07:20. > :07:23.leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this
:07:24. > :07:27.Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick
:07:28. > :07:30.Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems
:07:31. > :07:34.tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the
:07:35. > :07:37.only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put
:07:38. > :07:42.it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a
:07:43. > :07:45.desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a
:07:46. > :07:49.candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto
:07:50. > :07:55.power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,
:07:56. > :08:02.and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is
:08:03. > :08:04.clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further
:08:05. > :08:11.away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But
:08:12. > :08:15.he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal
:08:16. > :08:20.attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for
:08:21. > :08:26.43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been
:08:27. > :08:31.bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots
:08:32. > :08:36.activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are
:08:37. > :08:39.despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists, who
:08:40. > :08:43.they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that
:08:44. > :08:47.you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a
:08:48. > :08:53.Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish
:08:54. > :09:00.constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great
:09:01. > :09:04.offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It
:09:05. > :09:07.is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet
:09:08. > :09:12.another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine
:09:13. > :09:19.counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very
:09:20. > :09:21.embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the
:09:22. > :09:25.threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered
:09:26. > :09:31.at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know
:09:32. > :09:34.what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the
:09:35. > :09:38.case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it
:09:39. > :09:44.is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively
:09:45. > :09:48.weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS
:09:49. > :09:52.uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a
:09:53. > :10:00.high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the
:10:01. > :10:05.deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to
:10:06. > :10:10.begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.
:10:11. > :10:13.And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that
:10:14. > :10:16.if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is,
:10:17. > :10:20.they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly
:10:21. > :10:23.with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is
:10:24. > :10:26.any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a
:10:27. > :10:33.high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith,
:10:34. > :10:36.that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very
:10:37. > :10:41.bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can
:10:42. > :10:46.see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they
:10:47. > :10:54.are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on
:10:55. > :10:57.bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his
:10:58. > :11:00.accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot
:11:01. > :11:05.help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in
:11:06. > :11:10.high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy
:11:11. > :11:13.Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you
:11:14. > :11:18.are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.
:11:19. > :11:22.All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed
:11:23. > :11:24.to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence
:11:25. > :11:28.matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this
:11:29. > :11:32.list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five
:11:33. > :11:35.or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the
:11:36. > :11:38.police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those
:11:39. > :11:42.because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,
:11:43. > :11:47.being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on
:11:48. > :11:52.Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom
:11:53. > :11:58.and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do
:11:59. > :12:03.not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not
:12:04. > :12:06.that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and
:12:07. > :12:13.Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member
:12:14. > :12:18.of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is
:12:19. > :12:23.that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write
:12:24. > :12:28.themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and
:12:29. > :12:32.unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom
:12:33. > :12:36.and tomorrow. Of course it has. Think about how we have had wave
:12:37. > :12:40.after wave of stories and scandals. But less of it recently. It was I
:12:41. > :12:45.think that attitudes have slightly changed. I'll also think that if you
:12:46. > :12:51.get 650 people in any organisation and you put that much scrutiny on
:12:52. > :12:57.them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers
:12:58. > :14:01.of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC
:14:02. > :14:03.In 2013, the public voted for a portrait of
:14:04. > :14:12.At times he's interesting, at times he's very funny,
:14:13. > :14:19.My life is a very happy life and I'm a very happy person.
:14:20. > :14:21.Will you feel nervous when this is unveiled?
:14:22. > :14:25.I suppose being the centre of attention but for ever.