:00:37. > :00:43.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.
:00:44. > :00:48.The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been slowed.
:00:49. > :00:50.The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun.
:00:51. > :00:52.But the country now faces a de facto partition.
:00:53. > :00:55.What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything?
:00:56. > :00:58.It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum.
:00:59. > :01:02.But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty?
:01:03. > :01:09.Both sides join us to go head to head.
:01:10. > :01:13.I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of
:01:14. > :01:15.that? In East Midlands, what you think
:01:16. > :01:28.even Westminster, we'll be asking In East Midlands, what you think
:01:29. > :01:31.about immigration? Who cares In London, why the minority vote one
:01:32. > :01:32.recent elections Labour, but recent support amongst people is bigger
:01:33. > :01:43.than assumed. The Sunni Islamist army known
:01:44. > :01:46.as ISIS is now in control of huge swathes of northern
:01:47. > :01:48.and western Iraq, including Until the weekend they looked
:01:49. > :01:52.like advancing relentlessly on Baghdad but that offensive has
:01:53. > :01:54.now been slowed or even halted The Iraqi army
:01:55. > :01:59.and its Shia milita allies vow that Baghdad will not be taken and that
:02:00. > :02:06.a counter-attack will soon begin. Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri
:02:07. > :02:08.al-Maliki has to do something to reverse the humiliation
:02:09. > :02:10.of recent days, which saw his US-trained and equipped Iraqi
:02:11. > :02:16.army, which outnumbered the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or
:02:17. > :02:19.surrender when confronted by ISIS. The conflict has already created a
:02:20. > :02:22.humanitarian crisis, with hundreds The Kurds have used the conflict to
:02:23. > :02:32.consolidate their hold on their autonomous area in the north, parts
:02:33. > :02:36.of the west and the north are in the grip of ISIS control and the Shias
:02:37. > :02:39.are hunkering down in the east. All of which makes a three-way
:02:40. > :02:41.partition a real possibility with The US is moving another
:02:42. > :02:46.of its massive aircraft carrier battlefleets to the Gulf,
:02:47. > :02:48.though the White House shows no While Iran says it's ready to help
:02:49. > :02:53.its Shia allies and there are unconfoirmed reports
:02:54. > :02:55.that its revolutionary guard has Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's
:02:56. > :03:14.diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Let's start with some basics. Who
:03:15. > :03:21.are ISIS and why are they controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS
:03:22. > :03:25.is an extremist militant jihad organisation and they have a pure
:03:26. > :03:29.Islamic concept based on 14th century history and jurisprudence.
:03:30. > :03:35.What they want to do is correct -- create this caliphate that do not
:03:36. > :03:39.recognise colonial boundaries so it involves Syria and Iraq, and they
:03:40. > :03:42.could go down to Lebanon and Palestine, that is all fair game as
:03:43. > :03:47.far as they are concerned. And they have this strict interpretation of
:03:48. > :03:53.Islam. The more interesting question is why have semi-Sunni Muslims,
:03:54. > :03:57.along with them, these are precisely the sort of people who in 2006,
:03:58. > :04:02.2007, tribal leaders in the west of the country rose up against. It was
:04:03. > :04:07.called the Awakening and the Americans in power did and
:04:08. > :04:12.bankrolled it. These people turned against them and admired them in
:04:13. > :04:15.large numbers, so why do they have so many Sunni Muslims on their
:04:16. > :04:18.side? We hear about people going back to Mosul. I think the answer is
:04:19. > :04:21.a perception back to Mosul. I think the answer
:04:22. > :04:25.that the current government is ruling in sectarian interests, Shia
:04:26. > :04:27.Muslim interest, and the Sunni Muslims want self-determination and
:04:28. > :04:32.this is their best bet. Muslims want self-determination and
:04:33. > :04:35.this is their Let me put up this map to find out where we are going. We
:04:36. > :04:40.can see Mosul in the north, they took that, and then they started,
:04:41. > :04:49.South, reports that the crit was involved -- to grit -- to grit. What
:04:50. > :04:53.is the situation on the ground now? We are in what you might call a
:04:54. > :05:01.consolidation or strategic pause as American called it in 2003. ISIS are
:05:02. > :05:04.trying to consolidate their power in Mosul, and now they have this major
:05:05. > :05:08.city and they are trying to show they can run the city and get the
:05:09. > :05:12.power going, etc. Their southernmost forces, that is a gorilla army, guys
:05:13. > :05:18.in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal with serious opposition. They would
:05:19. > :05:21.like to get the tanks and other things into action but that could
:05:22. > :05:26.take weeks for them to be able to do it. The government side is that they
:05:27. > :05:30.have counter-attacked, but it will take a little while before these
:05:31. > :05:36.newly raised militia and other task forces, call them what you will can
:05:37. > :05:42.effectively counter-attacked. But that is what will happen in the next
:05:43. > :05:44.week or two. We will see increasingly large and serious
:05:45. > :05:53.government counter-attacked trying to retake those places, and I fear a
:05:54. > :06:00.really difficult, bloody Syrian style street by street battle for
:06:01. > :06:06.some of these urban centres. I would like to have a look at this map
:06:07. > :06:08.because the Kurds, as I mentioned, they are consolidating their
:06:09. > :06:14.position in the autonomous region in the north. The Islamist are taking
:06:15. > :06:20.over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim West. And of course the Shia Muslim
:06:21. > :06:24.are still dominant in control of Baghdad and in parts of the south
:06:25. > :06:33.and east. Back to me looks like the beginnings of the partition of Iraq.
:06:34. > :06:36.-- back to me. Well, it is, but we have to caveat it in a few ways
:06:37. > :06:42.Firstly, there are millions of people in Iraq, so-called sushi
:06:43. > :06:46.combined families, who do not fit easily into the pattern. Do we see
:06:47. > :06:52.millions of people becoming refugees under this scheme? There would be a
:06:53. > :06:56.lot of human tragedies if people really did try to enforce this type
:06:57. > :07:03.partition. Secondly, there are Sunni Muslim communities in the south of
:07:04. > :07:08.Baghdad, those places, once again, a lot of misery and fighting will
:07:09. > :07:20.occur if people try to enforce a de facto partition. There are still an
:07:21. > :07:25.awakening of forces. They are on the side of the government. We heard
:07:26. > :07:30.about one group in Samarra of Sunni Muslims fighting on the same side.
:07:31. > :07:33.It's a complex picture. They factor, it does look like a partition, and
:07:34. > :07:39.if it goes further in that direction it will. And partition will always
:07:40. > :07:43.be messy because people end up on the wrong side of the lies.
:07:44. > :07:48.Finally, the big thing on that map, Iran, a huge place, a huge border
:07:49. > :07:55.with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now becomes a key factor. It is becoming
:07:56. > :07:58.a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I was in Baghdad a few months ago I
:07:59. > :08:02.did actually see Iranians revolutionary guards in uniform
:08:03. > :08:08.They were protecting a senior Iranians official, so some numbers
:08:09. > :08:13.have been never some time and they are also said to protect the
:08:14. > :08:17.political leaders and -- in his compound. They are there. We think
:08:18. > :08:21.more of them are trying to organise the defence of Baghdad to galvanise
:08:22. > :08:26.the Iraqi army, and they will not allow the Iraqi government to fall.
:08:27. > :08:31.Mark, thank you for marking archive this morning. -- marking our card.
:08:32. > :08:33.Tony Blair took Britain into the Iraq conflict in 2003.
:08:34. > :08:36.He's now, among other things, envoy to the Middle East representing
:08:37. > :08:39.That's the UN, the EU, the US and Russia.
:08:40. > :08:41.This morning he entered the debate about what should be
:08:42. > :08:52.My point is simple. If you left Saddam in place in 2003, when 2 11
:08:53. > :08:58.happened and you have the Arab revolutions going through Tunisia,
:08:59. > :09:03.Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and Syria, you would still have had a
:09:04. > :09:06.major problem in Iraq. You can see what happens when you leave the
:09:07. > :09:10.dictator in place, as has happened with Bashar al-Assad. The problem
:09:11. > :09:15.doesn't go away. What I'm trying to say is, we can rerun the debates
:09:16. > :09:19.about 2003, and there are perfectly legitimate points on either side,
:09:20. > :09:22.but where we are in 2014, we have do understand that this is a regional
:09:23. > :09:26.problem, but a problem that will affect us.
:09:27. > :09:28.And I'm joined by the former Foreign Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown,
:09:29. > :09:32.Here in London are James Rubin, he was chief spokesman
:09:33. > :09:34.for the State Department under Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman,
:09:35. > :09:47.she represents the Kurdistan Regional government in the UK.
:09:48. > :09:52.Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, we don't intervene in Syria, it s a
:09:53. > :09:57.shambles. What lessons should we draw? That is a well framed
:09:58. > :10:01.question, because that is the problem. Tony Blair is half right.
:10:02. > :10:06.Iraq, like Syria, would probably have been a problem even without an
:10:07. > :10:11.intervention. But one wishes someone would tell him to stay quiet during
:10:12. > :10:15.moments like this, because it does drive a great surge of people in the
:10:16. > :10:18.other direction. The fact is, what has been missing in western politics
:10:19. > :10:24.towards the Middle East throughout both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a
:10:25. > :10:29.drive to build an inclusive, democratic centre which is secular
:10:30. > :10:33.and nonsectarian. That has been missing amongst the threats of
:10:34. > :10:38.invasion Manon invasion, we have just constantly neglected the
:10:39. > :10:43.diplomatic nation-building dimensional this. I want to come
:10:44. > :10:47.onto what is happening on the ground. I want to begin with what
:10:48. > :10:49.the Western response by me, and by that we mean the United States,
:10:50. > :10:54.because of it doesn't do anything, nobody will do anything. All of the
:10:55. > :10:58.signals I see coming out of the White is that Barack Obama has no
:10:59. > :11:02.appetite for intervention -- out of the White House. I don't think he
:11:03. > :11:08.does have an appetite. He would be very unlikely to do anything very
:11:09. > :11:14.large. He might feel pressured to act because of the fact that this
:11:15. > :11:18.particular group, this Al-Qaeda inspired group, fits into the
:11:19. > :11:22.strategy he has pursued in Yemen and Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use
:11:23. > :11:33.drone strikes against individual terrorists. So it is possible that
:11:34. > :11:37.the threat of ISIS in the region and the West in general might inspire
:11:38. > :11:42.him to act, but the idea he will do enough, militarily, to transform
:11:43. > :11:49.Iraq from its current state of civil War into something along the lines
:11:50. > :11:54.that Mark was talking about, nation-building diplomacy, a big
:11:55. > :11:58.operation, I don't see President Obama sees his historic mission as
:11:59. > :12:03.having got the United States as out of it. Leave it to the Pacific,
:12:04. > :12:09.perhaps. What would the Kurds like the West to do? First of all, in
:12:10. > :12:13.Kurdistan we face a huge humanitarian crisis. We already have
:12:14. > :12:16.had bought a quarter of a million Syrian refugees and we were
:12:17. > :12:22.struggling to cope with that. And now we have at least double that
:12:23. > :12:25.number of refugees coming from Mosul. First and foremost, we are
:12:26. > :12:30.calling on the international community to help us with that. So
:12:31. > :12:33.we need humanitarian aid? Let's assume we do that in some way, maybe
:12:34. > :12:38.not enough, but what else if anything? I think it is an incumbent
:12:39. > :12:44.on the west and other powers to assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I
:12:45. > :12:51.think the Sunni Arab community, some of whom have joined ISIS and may be
:12:52. > :12:58.supported the uprising, have justified complaints against the
:12:59. > :13:01.federal government. But we need the terrorists out of Iraq. That is
:13:02. > :13:05.first and foremost. And what the West can do is not necessarily
:13:06. > :13:08.intervene with boots on the ground, but provide technical assistance,
:13:09. > :13:14.provide intelligence and help the Iraqi army and air force to be more
:13:15. > :13:21.targeted. Can you defend yourselves? In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the
:13:22. > :13:25.disciplined troops. In this situation, I hope they won't be
:13:26. > :13:30.abandoning their post, that is for sure. It is a national cause fires.
:13:31. > :13:36.But we are not armed in the way that the Iraqi army is -- cause for us.
:13:37. > :13:39.We are not armed in the way that ISIS seems to be now they have
:13:40. > :13:43.seized some of the American kit We are not asking for weapons, but we
:13:44. > :13:48.ask for assistance for all of Iraq to deal with the situation. Mark,
:13:49. > :13:53.this is not just an Iraqi problem. This is a regional conflict, and
:13:54. > :13:57.from the Levant on the shores of the Mediterranean, all the way through
:13:58. > :14:04.to the Gulf, the region is gripped with what is essentially a Sunni and
:14:05. > :14:07.Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with the caveats that Mark bourbon made
:14:08. > :14:11.earlier, it's not quite that straightforward, but the basic
:14:12. > :14:16.divide is exactly that -- Mark Urban. People have been looking for
:14:17. > :14:19.this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan and have been taken by surprise
:14:20. > :14:25.although with hindsight I'm not sure why, that it has begun in Iraq
:14:26. > :14:28.instead. At its most extreme, it risks redrawing the 20th century
:14:29. > :14:33.boundaries of the region in a way which would be highly unstable
:14:34. > :14:38.because it would pit a Shia Muslim bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc
:14:39. > :14:43.and would undo all of the sort of social and economic advance of the
:14:44. > :14:48.last century, so the stakes are suddenly very, very high indeed Are
:14:49. > :14:54.we seeing the redrawing? The lines were drawn secretly, not far from
:14:55. > :14:58.here, about a mile away, and may have survived through thick and
:14:59. > :15:03.thin. They now look pretty fragile. The map is being redrawn. I think it
:15:04. > :15:10.is true that there is a key factor partition going on -- des facto
:15:11. > :15:17.Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit of a hand to the promotion of the
:15:18. > :15:20.idea of self-determination, and in a way, there is a self determination
:15:21. > :15:24.going on, particularly in the Kurdish region, and perhaps they may
:15:25. > :15:30.end up the big winners in all of this, because they have proceeded
:15:31. > :15:32.with a relatively moderate, reconcilable government. The key
:15:33. > :15:43.thing that the Kurdish region has done. They used to fight the two
:15:44. > :15:48.groups, and now they fight together. What the Sunni Muslims have not done
:15:49. > :15:56.is figure out how to let politics let the side things instead of guns.
:15:57. > :16:03.We need to look clearly and in Syria and Iraq, if there is a Sunni
:16:04. > :16:08.extremist with ISIS that carves out a place for itself, it will be the
:16:09. > :16:13.great irony of the modern era. President Bush said he wanted to go
:16:14. > :16:20.into Iraq to fight terrorism. There was no terrorist. There are now If
:16:21. > :16:27.in Iraq and Syria together thereat a thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability
:16:28. > :16:28.that threatens the region, the West, the world, we are all going to
:16:29. > :16:57.have to do something about it. The danger is that power will
:16:58. > :17:02.spread. This could grow in power. You would not want it on your
:17:03. > :17:05.southern border. Absolutely, we would not. The point we are all
:17:06. > :17:11.making indirectly is that things have changed in Iraq and will never
:17:12. > :17:13.be the same again. Whether Iraq completely disintegrates into three
:17:14. > :17:15.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but a
:17:16. > :17:19.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but loose
:17:20. > :17:25.federation, either way, Iraq has changed. It will not go back to what
:17:26. > :17:29.it was. I hope it will change for the better. I think we're at the
:17:30. > :17:37.make or break point for Iraq. Either the political readers -- the
:17:38. > :17:41.political leaders of a right wake up and smell the coffee and put aside
:17:42. > :17:46.their differences or there will be problems. This provides that
:17:47. > :17:51.opportunity, in a very nasty way. If we take it? Yes, and if not, I
:17:52. > :17:56.opportunity, in a very nasty way. If this is the end of a rack as we know
:17:57. > :18:41.it. If anything resembling a caliphate emerges,
:18:42. > :18:43.it. If anything resembling a autonomous federal-state. Any
:18:44. > :18:46.support for the government must be premised on that. There is no
:18:47. > :19:46.military solution for this which is in
:19:47. > :19:50.military solution for this which is big issues. When Britain and France
:19:51. > :19:53.carved up the Middle East, they were world powers, operating as global
:19:54. > :19:58.powers, and without that global leadership by somebody, this is just
:19:59. > :20:00.going to get worse and worse. I think we will leave it there, thank
:20:01. > :20:05.you very much. The danger is that power will
:20:06. > :20:10.spread. This could grow in power. It is just under 100 days until the
:20:11. > :20:13.referendum on Scottish independence. So, for once,
:20:14. > :20:15.it'll be a long hot-summer But the campaign isn't
:20:16. > :20:20.just getting heated. In places it's also
:20:21. > :20:22.down-right nasty. When Scotland's best-selling author
:20:23. > :20:24.announced she was giving the unionist cause a million pounds
:20:25. > :20:26.this week, she received Independence supporters online,
:20:27. > :20:34.so-called cybernats, called JK Rowling a traitor
:20:35. > :20:37.and much worse, using a variety of For its part, the Better Together
:20:38. > :20:40.campaign has been accused Even Gordon Brown seems to think so,
:20:41. > :20:44.and this week he criticised Conservative ministers
:20:45. > :20:46.for relying on "threats With the Edinburgh Festival
:20:47. > :20:51.approaching, reports suggest even comedians are now reluctant to
:20:52. > :20:53.engage in the subject because I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from
:20:54. > :21:00.Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie They're both in our Glasgow studio,
:21:01. > :21:20.and they're going head to head. Blair Jenkins, let me come to you
:21:21. > :21:24.first. Why have you and the Better Together campaign and Alex Salmond
:21:25. > :21:28.not done more to slap down the cyber nationalists who are poisoning the
:21:29. > :21:34.debate? Good morning. I think both sides tried to stop the tiny number
:21:35. > :21:38.of people on both sides who are incapable of controlling
:21:39. > :21:42.themselves. We should not get this out of proportion. We are having a
:21:43. > :21:46.fantastic, decent and democratic debate. The people who probably
:21:47. > :21:50.total no more than 100 on both sides who post offensive material or not
:21:51. > :21:55.to be allowed to deflect from that fact. Of course there are nasty
:21:56. > :21:59.people on the Better Together side as well, but are you saying there
:22:00. > :22:05.are as many of those as the cyber nationalists? I have not done the
:22:06. > :22:10.Kent. Lots of people are certainly posting nasty in defensive things to
:22:11. > :22:15.people in the yes campaigners well. I imagine that people do what I do,
:22:16. > :22:22.and block them. You stop them from sending anything further. There is a
:22:23. > :22:26.democratic and in gauging progress going on throughout Scotland. It is
:22:27. > :22:29.characterised by good humour and good debate. We should not get out
:22:30. > :22:36.of proportion and the activities of the number of people. I want to get
:22:37. > :22:38.to Jackie Baillie. The debate is actually pretty good-humoured and
:22:39. > :22:43.you should be doing more about the nasties on your side as well? I
:22:44. > :22:48.think we have reached a new low this week. Despite many people engaging
:22:49. > :22:54.in the politics of the decision and the debate about that, whether we
:22:55. > :22:58.want to retain the best of both worlds are separate from the United
:22:59. > :23:05.Kingdom, what we have seen is the most abusive and vitriolic attack,
:23:06. > :23:10.particularly on women, JK Rowling and a Labour supporter who dared to
:23:11. > :23:15.support the no campaign. When you look at the number of people on
:23:16. > :23:20.social media, there are more from the yes campaign than the no site.
:23:21. > :23:28.We should all be condemning attacks, from whatever quarter they come
:23:29. > :23:32.This seemed to be connected to the office of the First Minister. What
:23:33. > :23:37.is the evidence for that? There was an e-mail from one of the... I
:23:38. > :23:46.understand about that, but it did not use vile words. It did not, but
:23:47. > :23:51.it repeated the same mistake as on the website. We should be clear that
:23:52. > :23:56.we need to condemn these attacks, but it is not just the water works,
:23:57. > :24:01.it is taking action. There was an IpsosMORI poll this week which was
:24:02. > :24:05.varying testing. It showed the population as a whole, farmer people
:24:06. > :24:10.think that Yes Scotland is running an effective campaign as against
:24:11. > :24:19.Better Together. It is a undecided voters think this by a majority of
:24:20. > :24:23.four 21. Some people are worried about of the campaign. JK Rowling,
:24:24. > :24:29.Scotland's most successful author of all time. She gives ?1 million to
:24:30. > :24:33.the Better Together campaign. She then faces some of the most
:24:34. > :24:41.incredible abuse. I know what it is like because I have had some myself.
:24:42. > :24:46.Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some of the words, it is Sunday morning.
:24:47. > :24:50.Why does Scottish Nationalists culture have such a revolting
:24:51. > :24:54.fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to our views and it is unacceptable if
:24:55. > :24:59.people say offensive things about her or anyone else who voices and
:25:00. > :25:03.opinion in this debate. Who are obese people? When you look at the
:25:04. > :25:07.accounts of some of the people who were posting these things about JK
:25:08. > :25:11.Rowling, they were using the same sort of language about film stars
:25:12. > :25:18.and football stars. This was just part of their language on Twitter.
:25:19. > :25:26.How often has Alex Salmond condemned the cyber nationalists? Very often.
:25:27. > :25:29.Everyone in the campaign hands. By common consent, Yes Scotland is
:25:30. > :25:35.running a thoroughly positive campaign, much more positive than
:25:36. > :25:40.Better Together. Jackie Baillie it hardly helps matters when Alistair
:25:41. > :25:43.Darling, who runs your campaign compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il
:25:44. > :25:49.and North Korea. That hardly elevates the debate? I think we need
:25:50. > :25:56.to elevate the debate. There are less than a hundred days to go. It
:25:57. > :26:02.is a massive decision. We need to elevate the debate beyond attacks. I
:26:03. > :26:08.think there is much more that Yes Scotland and the SNP can do. You
:26:09. > :26:14.have made that point. Why are you running a campaign based on fear?
:26:15. > :26:21.The codename of your campaign is even project fear. It is threats.
:26:22. > :26:25.You cannot have the pound, there will be no shipbuilding. You will be
:26:26. > :26:31.flooded by immigrants. Why are you so negative? I am not negative at
:26:32. > :26:35.all and neither is the campaign The campaign has asked questions and I
:26:36. > :26:39.think it is legitimate to ask questions of the people proposing
:26:40. > :26:44.such a fundamental change. People care about the economy, their jobs,
:26:45. > :26:50.their families. What would happen to them if they leave the rest of the
:26:51. > :26:52.United Kingdom. I think it is legitimate to ask questions. I
:26:53. > :27:00.refuse to be asked of scaremongering. People deserve
:27:01. > :27:07.answers. The yes campaign is equally guilty of some of the most
:27:08. > :27:13.outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you are both scaremongering. Blair
:27:14. > :27:17.Jenkins, the First Minister said of the cyber nationalists, that they
:27:18. > :27:23.are just Daft folk, as if they were mischievous little children. It is
:27:24. > :27:29.worse than that. When you look at what they say, they are twisted
:27:30. > :27:33.perhaps even evil minds. I would not disagree with his comments, but they
:27:34. > :27:38.are directed at just a small number of people. The story of this
:27:39. > :27:43.campaign is not the story of what people are saying on Twitter. Around
:27:44. > :27:49.Scotland, lots of people are getting engaged in debate to have been tuned
:27:50. > :27:53.out of the political process. Today, we have 47% support for the yes
:27:54. > :27:58.campaign. The movement in the campaign is towards yes. People know
:27:59. > :28:05.we have a better campaign, a vision for Scotland. The latest poll of
:28:06. > :28:09.polls does not show that. Both sides, you always take the opinion
:28:10. > :28:14.polls that show you in the best light. All politicians do that.
:28:15. > :28:20.Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not just negative, it is patronising.
:28:21. > :28:26.You make dubious claims that Scots would be ?1400 better off by staying
:28:27. > :28:33.in the union, and then you say that the kids use the money to scoff 280
:28:34. > :28:36.hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. The fate of the nation is in your
:28:37. > :28:42.hands and that is the best you can do? I think you will find that the
:28:43. > :28:48.campaign is something that we are taking the message to people. Then
:28:49. > :28:56.why are you talking about hotdogs? I do not. The campaign did. We are
:28:57. > :28:59.taking a positive message to people across Scotland about the benefits
:29:00. > :29:04.of the United Kingdom. We believe we are stronger and more secure and
:29:05. > :29:08.more stable, being part of that family of nations that is the United
:29:09. > :29:13.Kingdom. At the same time, we have the strange and power over things
:29:14. > :29:19.like education and transport. I understand that. I am not doing the
:29:20. > :29:24.issues today, I am talking about the tone of the campaign. I have one
:29:25. > :29:30.very important question. Who would you supporting last night in the
:29:31. > :29:35.England-Italy match? I was not watching the game. I would be
:29:36. > :29:39.delighted to see England do well in this tournament. I have Argentina in
:29:40. > :29:43.the office sweepstake. I have to keep some attention on them, but I
:29:44. > :29:49.would be delighted to seeing Clint do well. That is because you think
:29:50. > :29:55.it will help your campaign. It will annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie I
:29:56. > :30:01.was supporting England. I was also supporting Portugal.
:30:02. > :30:04.Now most of you probably missed last night's football match
:30:05. > :30:07.between England and Italy because you wanted to get an early night and
:30:08. > :30:11.England lost despite a plucky effort, I'm told.
:30:12. > :30:14.But even Westminster is in the grip of World Cup fever
:30:15. > :30:16.and with speculation about the fitness of each political
:30:17. > :30:23.party's team we sent Adam out to tackle some of the big players.
:30:24. > :30:25.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.
:30:26. > :30:38.This year everybody seems to have gone a bit mad Belize, football
:30:39. > :30:45.stickers. Let's see who I will get. Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for
:30:46. > :30:47.these. George Osborne? That is because we leapt on the bandwagon
:30:48. > :30:50.and made Alan political stickers. They're hotter than a Brazilian
:30:51. > :30:52.barbecue. And at Westminster they're
:30:53. > :31:01.turning into collector?s items. Sunday politics political stickers.
:31:02. > :31:06.We have one of you, Norman. Would you like it? Do you want to start
:31:07. > :31:06.collecting, Bob? Would you like a packet?
:31:07. > :31:14.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I'm afraid
:31:15. > :31:17.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I've got
:31:18. > :31:25.Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and two of the Prime Minister. -- next
:31:26. > :31:26.to Theresa. I am sure Michael has Theresa in her stick around, and
:31:27. > :31:28.vice versa. These Tory ones are proving very
:31:29. > :31:30.popular since she fell out with him out how
:31:31. > :31:33.to handle extremism in schools. And there's been open speculation
:31:34. > :31:36.about him taking on him in Then there are rumours of a
:31:37. > :31:47.reshuffle of the whole Tory album. Do you think there will be any
:31:48. > :31:56.swapping in the Tory leadership soon? Who knows? David Cameron has
:31:57. > :31:57.also got to replace the EU commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is
:31:58. > :31:58.standing down. Does he go with the favourite
:31:59. > :32:01.the former health secretary Or the grassroots choice,
:32:02. > :32:04.Martin Callanan, the Tories old Or does he rehabilitate
:32:05. > :32:21.Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? Do you fancy being European
:32:22. > :32:25.Commissioner? I would rather be spending the money on the world s
:32:26. > :32:27.poor and spending it well. Glad to hear it. Happy collecting.
:32:28. > :32:30.Right, there must be some Labour stickers out there.
:32:31. > :32:38.You don't want to swap Ed Balls any of the others? Can't I keep them
:32:39. > :32:39.all? This is almost the perfect team.
:32:40. > :32:42.There have been grumblings about the fitness of the Shadow
:32:43. > :32:46.And Ed Miliband's got a kicking in Liverpool after posing
:32:47. > :32:57.I'm told grown men are meeting up in pubs for sticker swaps -
:32:58. > :33:02.With Danny Finkelstein - Tory peer and Times columnist,
:33:03. > :33:14.He would be the card I would not want to trade. Do people want to
:33:15. > :33:17.trade him in? I don't think anybody wants to trade him in at the moment.
:33:18. > :33:21.He is the best person to lead the Labour party and will lead us into
:33:22. > :33:25.the next election. There's been a lot about Michael Gove, and he's
:33:26. > :33:27.very combative. That's been a huge strength as an education Secretary,
:33:28. > :33:31.despite the fact it's brought in trouble. I would think the prime
:33:32. > :33:35.minister would tell him not to get himself into peripheral battles at
:33:36. > :33:41.the moment but stick to what has been successful. I haven't got Nick
:33:42. > :33:47.Clegg, but I got me. Controversy amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I
:33:48. > :33:48.need to give away me in return for Nick Clegg. That would be far
:33:49. > :33:52.better. There you are. Some local parties are holding
:33:53. > :33:55.meetings about his leadership, but at one in Cambridge this week
:33:56. > :34:07.they voted to stick with him. You have got a Euro Commissioner.
:34:08. > :34:11.Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do
:34:12. > :34:14.that? What is the significance of that? Very significant. Happy
:34:15. > :34:17.collecting. These beauties are popping up
:34:18. > :34:20.everywhere, but sadly they won't Adam is still doing the samba around
:34:21. > :34:30.Westminster as I speak. I'm joined
:34:31. > :34:32.by three journalists who've been furiously swapping stickers
:34:33. > :34:34.throughout the show, they certainly weren't allowed to stay up to watch
:34:35. > :34:44.the football, it's Nick Watt, We will talk about Labour after the
:34:45. > :34:46.break, and I want to concentrate on the Tories, but the moment, Nick,
:34:47. > :34:56.senior Tories are saying privately that they might win next May. They
:34:57. > :35:01.are beginning to dream the dream. So why are they doing all this
:35:02. > :35:07.jockeying? I think the jockeying for the leadership is about a year old.
:35:08. > :35:13.What stoped it up was when Theresa gave a speech to the conference and
:35:14. > :35:16.people said she was doing it just in case, when things were not looking
:35:17. > :35:21.too good. She is not on manoeuvres. I think it was a policy row that
:35:22. > :35:25.drove the differences with Michael Gove. But Michael Gove is on
:35:26. > :35:28.manoeuvres, and he is trying to protect George Osborne from, he
:35:29. > :35:34.believes, a serious threat from Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa.
:35:35. > :35:38.It is quite self-indulgent when you are a couple of points behind, the
:35:39. > :35:48.economy is going your way, to be involved in this sort of stuff.
:35:49. > :35:54.Extraordinary. It shows the toxic disease that gnaws at the entrails
:35:55. > :35:56.of the Tory party, and Cameron is their great asset. He is more
:35:57. > :36:01.popular than the party, he bridges the gap is, and he has an
:36:02. > :36:05.extraordinary dissemble and some pretending to be this moderate while
:36:06. > :36:08.never the lens -- nevertheless leading the most far right wing
:36:09. > :36:12.government we have had since the war, and that has been a brilliant
:36:13. > :36:14.piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it --
:36:15. > :36:17.political Charente. piece of political Charente and they
:36:18. > :36:22.would be crazy to get rid of it -- charades. Does this rumble on? I
:36:23. > :36:26.have an unfashionable view as there aren't half as many leadership plots
:36:27. > :36:30.taking place in Westminster as we assume, and the willingness to read
:36:31. > :36:34.strategic calculation into anything that takes place comes from people
:36:35. > :36:40.watching I Claudius or house of cards. That hasn't been off -- on
:36:41. > :36:47.for years. I needed a reference from your time. I needed something. Maybe
:36:48. > :36:51.brief encounter? It's a stylised view of how politics works, and so
:36:52. > :36:57.much more in life is about randomness and mistakes. Boris
:36:58. > :37:03.Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove as George Osborne's man on earth,
:37:04. > :37:06.they are positioning themselves -- Janan wrote an eloquent comment this
:37:07. > :37:12.week about this, but there are certain realities that. Michael Gove
:37:13. > :37:15.had that famous dinner with Rupert Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he
:37:16. > :37:20.said that you must not make Boris Johnson leader of the Conservative
:37:21. > :37:24.party, George Osborne is my man Theresa May set out her credo two
:37:25. > :37:28.years ago and people on her team were saying that she was doing it
:37:29. > :37:32.just in case. People are out there and are thinking of the future, but
:37:33. > :37:36.I do think Janan is right. In the village, in the thick of it mindset,
:37:37. > :37:45.you can get a bit carried away and you can be a bit in the famous. That
:37:46. > :37:52.is before your era. He died. What did he mean by it. You can get a bit
:37:53. > :37:55.carried away by it. I will have words with you during the break
:37:56. > :37:57.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:58. > :38:00.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:01. > :38:11.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking about Ed Miliband's
:38:12. > :38:13.In the East Midlands, is immigration boosting our economy
:38:14. > :38:16.MPs and councils hold a special meeting.
:38:17. > :38:22.I would say it's good for Ldicester, and good for the UK.
:38:23. > :38:27.It's politically incorrect but I do feel we've been sw`mped,
:38:28. > :38:35.Who cares for the children who care for their families?
:38:36. > :38:40.My friends don't have to care for their siblings or their mum
:38:41. > :38:46.They just go out and play on the park and do what thex want
:38:47. > :38:52.Hello, I'm Marie Ashby and my guests today, Heather
:38:53. > :38:58.Wheeler, the Conservative MP for South Derbyshire and Liz Kendall,
:38:59. > :39:01.Labour's MP for Leicester Wdst. So what price the recession?
:39:02. > :39:04.Well, the Labour leader Ed Liliband thinks he knows how much it's cost
:39:05. > :39:07.us here in the East Midlands. He was addressing the
:39:08. > :39:12.Annual Conference of the GMB trade union at the Nottingham Arena.
:39:13. > :39:16.And, in a speech dominated by the cost of living, he put a figure on
:39:17. > :39:20.how much Labour claims we'vd lost in lower earnings and higher prices.
:39:21. > :39:22.People are on average according to the figures published yesterday two
:39:23. > :39:28.and a half thousand pounds ` year worse off than they were in 201 .
:39:29. > :39:30.That means wages are behind prices and we're still seeing
:39:31. > :39:35.We've got a tackle that because while the government says
:39:36. > :39:38.the economy is fixed, the truth is people are getting worse off
:39:39. > :39:42.and that's why we need to r`ise the minimum wage, deal with insdcurity,
:39:43. > :39:57.zero hours contracts, build houses again
:39:58. > :40:05.Do you accept those figures? Absolutely not. If you look at
:40:06. > :40:08.things we've introduced by having zero council tax increases when it
:40:09. > :40:13.under Conservative council, and then as soon as Labour get enabldd the
:40:14. > :40:18.council tax up. Things like the fuel duty escalator also be rid of it and
:40:19. > :40:22.taking 2p off a pint of beer. We have really brought in meastres
:40:23. > :40:26.which curb excessive price hncreases through mechanisms that the
:40:27. > :40:30.government are in control of soy don't accept that at all. The
:40:31. > :40:34.government will say their policies are working for the we have been
:40:35. > :40:36.through the most hideous recession. I think people are struggling to
:40:37. > :41:30.make ends meet. Many people in this around here where wages are low The
:41:31. > :42:28.difficulty is, I don't want to see a low`wage
:42:29. > :42:30.The report also said there was evidence that overall immigration
:42:31. > :42:33.had economic benefits for the region, but was putting
:42:34. > :42:38.a strain on many services which were not getting the dxtra
:42:39. > :42:43.Well, we mentioned that Leicester has the most people in the Dast
:42:44. > :42:53.Do you think immigration is a good or bad thing?
:42:54. > :43:01.Not only is it taking jobs from people, it's taking all
:43:02. > :43:05.People that live here and born here, generations, can't get housds, can't
:43:06. > :43:15.Then the people can actuallx live together cohesively
:43:16. > :43:20.Excuse me, sir, sorry to interrupt you.
:43:21. > :43:25.Do you think immigration is a good or bad thing?
:43:26. > :43:31.I think we should all learn to live in peace, one love.
:43:32. > :43:42.It's been a very good thing for Leicester.
:43:43. > :43:45.Particularly in the last ten or so years.
:43:46. > :43:49.It's brought a lot of vibrancy to the city.
:43:50. > :43:53.It's politically incorrect but I do feel we've been sw`mped,
:43:54. > :43:58.What would you say if I said a third of the people in Lehcester
:43:59. > :44:02.I would say it's good for Ldicester, and good for the UK.
:44:03. > :44:18.Some interesting and varied views there.
:44:19. > :44:20.And we're joined by Stuart Xoung, the Executive Director of
:44:21. > :44:34.??PREVSUB ??NEWSUB why were cancelled so keen to have this
:44:35. > :44:39.meeting with MPs? This is an important issue. Given the
:44:40. > :44:42.importance of the issue, cotncil leaders are very keen to properly
:44:43. > :44:45.understand the issue of migration. Its effects on the region and its
:44:46. > :44:50.effects on the delivery of public services. It is the service of the
:44:51. > :44:55.councils are worried about because clearly they've had funding cut and
:44:56. > :45:01.still have to these services? It is the delivery of public servhces most
:45:02. > :45:04.focused on. Immigration is `n issue national government is lookhng at
:45:05. > :45:10.but in terms of local government, doing practical solutions, to the
:45:11. > :45:12.challenges I have in supporting local committees, and making sure
:45:13. > :45:19.their public services are both effectively paid for and delivered.
:45:20. > :45:23.You have figures that show has been an the number of supported `sylum
:45:24. > :45:27.seekers in the East Midlands, up 76% in one year. That will put pressure
:45:28. > :45:33.on in other areas, too, too, isn't it? We need to get a context in
:45:34. > :45:37.these figures. If 76% up from last year, in East Midlands, 2000
:45:38. > :45:42.supported asylum seekers, btt it's not just about the numbers of about
:45:43. > :45:47.a dispersal. What councils `re saying is, if you are going to have
:45:48. > :45:53.asylum seekers in communitids, what we need to do is effectivelx plan
:45:54. > :45:55.for that and to make sure that the Home Office and the private
:45:56. > :46:01.contractors work with counchls in terms of determining where `nd how
:46:02. > :46:07.they are. It's a massive subject and one which is very tricky for you as
:46:08. > :46:09.politicians to deal with. No one wants to be politically incorrect on
:46:10. > :46:16.this but you can't ignore this issue. It's massive, isn't ht? This
:46:17. > :46:23.is a fallacy any politician is ignoring immigration. You s`w in
:46:24. > :46:28.less a wide range of views. I share a lot of concerns about immhgration.
:46:29. > :46:33.But I also see some real benefits in the diversity in Leicester `nd new
:46:34. > :46:37.businesses and trade brings to many people and many people are worried
:46:38. > :46:40.about the impact on jobs, the impact on public services and what is
:46:41. > :46:43.happening in their communithes. I think it is a fallacy to sax don't
:46:44. > :46:48.want to talk about it. I talk about it all the time on the doorstep and
:46:49. > :46:54.in Parliament. Immigration, good or bad in your view? I think it's got
:46:55. > :46:59.many downsides and I think that the plans we have got to stop
:47:00. > :47:07.immigration where we can, is absolutely the right thing. It isn't
:47:08. > :47:10.just... What are the downsides? Changing communities vastly. We
:47:11. > :47:16.don't recognise certain parts of our communities any more. Because you
:47:17. > :47:19.will go into the post officd and you will be in a queue of 15 people and
:47:20. > :47:23.there will be many of them who are dealing with money transfers back to
:47:24. > :47:26.their own countries. Of course, that's fantastic, but if thd money
:47:27. > :47:32.is going back to their country, it's not staying in our economy. If they
:47:33. > :47:36.are earning in paying their taxes, they will be. It's important people
:47:37. > :47:41.come here to work and pay their taxes. Is there something you're
:47:42. > :47:45.hearing from the council, their concerns? There is a clear need for
:47:46. > :47:50.a debate in terms of migrathon, what is it, economic migration, supported
:47:51. > :47:53.asylum seekers, and the effdct of it on public services. It's not
:47:54. > :47:58.understand the effect but stggesting how we can improve the situ`tion.
:47:59. > :48:01.For the work we've done, we have identified four issues in of lack of
:48:02. > :48:07.language provision, dispers`l of asylum seekers, the cost of moving
:48:08. > :48:12.from central to local government. They are three key issues. The fact
:48:13. > :48:47.you have gone to politicians like Heather,
:48:48. > :48:50.now we have put in particul`r measures to bring the points system
:48:51. > :48:53.Australia has. Every body understands the immigration in
:48:54. > :48:59.Australia thinks it's fair. That's what people want in this cotntry. I
:49:00. > :49:02.think we need tough border controls to make sure people don't come here
:49:03. > :49:08.illegally. If you come to this country, it should be to cut work
:49:09. > :49:11.and not claim benefits. You should speak the language. What applies in
:49:12. > :49:15.this country should apply to British people go abroad, too. What's
:49:16. > :49:19.important is, the way that we give people confidence that they are
:49:20. > :49:23.going to get jobs, get homes, is to give them the skills they nded and
:49:24. > :49:27.have good quality jobs in this country, not by suggesting xou will
:49:28. > :49:34.be OK so long as we shut evdrybody out. What is next to them? What s
:49:35. > :49:37.the next step? The report whll be available in mid July so thd next
:49:38. > :49:43.step is to continue to work with the councils, voluntary community
:49:44. > :49:46.sector, the business sector, we are keen to highlight the econolic
:49:47. > :49:53.benefits, for example, an estimation that there is a 10% contribttion to
:49:54. > :49:58.the output to the region market was economy. Some areas do less well. We
:49:59. > :50:02.want to identify those challenges. It's good to talk about it but
:50:03. > :50:10.actions is needed as well. The action is around inadequate language
:50:11. > :50:15.provision. What areas do less well? In Northamptonshire for exalple
:50:16. > :50:19.there's a big pressure on school places and the council is rdsponding
:50:20. > :50:23.in terms of expanding the ntmber of schools, to increase the nulber of
:50:24. > :50:28.places. In Boston, there's been a huge increase. We have to m`ke sure
:50:29. > :50:31.they focus on housing and elployment to support the population. Thank you
:50:32. > :50:34.so much for joining us todax. The number of children caring
:50:35. > :50:36.for their parents or their brothers and sisters hs rising
:50:37. > :50:38.in the East Midlands. It's up by 14%
:50:39. > :50:40.in the last ten years. The government has brought
:50:41. > :50:43.in new guidelines to force councils to offer more help to young people
:50:44. > :50:46.but critics say the continuhng cuts facing local authorities me`n it
:50:47. > :50:48.will stay a low priority. Patcee Francis has been to
:50:49. > :50:51.Derby to meet two children It's a rare break for two young
:50:52. > :51:02.carers with heavy responsibhlities. Alannah and Malika are school
:51:03. > :51:05.children who have to mix sttdies I care for my twin brothers,
:51:06. > :51:15.Liam and Ryan, who have authsm No, my mum helps,
:51:16. > :51:23.but sometimes she's a bit poorly because she dodsn't get
:51:24. > :51:30.a lot of rest and sleep and things. So I need to help her as well
:51:31. > :51:35.as my brothers. Malika lives alone with her mother
:51:36. > :51:38.who suffers from chronic pahn An elder sister comes home to help,
:51:39. > :51:43.but much I'll get up in the morning `round
:51:44. > :51:54.6.30`7.00, and I'll make brdakfast And if there is laundry,
:51:55. > :52:06.I'll put it in and wash Derby City Council is working
:52:07. > :52:10.with 66 young carers. Nottingham has 200 and in Ldicester,
:52:11. > :52:15.the figure is 249. We are seeing an increase
:52:16. > :52:21.in mental health issues. We are also seeing an incre`se in
:52:22. > :52:24.young carers, or young people, that Also for some children I thhnk
:52:25. > :52:34.the difficulties around maybe caring for parents where there are
:52:35. > :52:37.life`limiting illnesses. Do you think your life is vdry
:52:38. > :52:41.different to your friends? Yes, because
:52:42. > :52:43.my friends don't have to care And they can just go out and play
:52:44. > :52:53.on the park. And do what they want,
:52:54. > :52:56.when I have to think twice when I They have more freedom to do stuff
:52:57. > :53:05.they want, do more activitids. And, like,
:53:06. > :53:07.if they ask you for a sleepover you say no because you've got to
:53:08. > :53:10.care for someone in the house. Sometimes they don't
:53:11. > :53:14.understand what you mean. More and more children are taking
:53:15. > :53:16.on the burden of looking New guidelines mean councils have
:53:17. > :53:22.to consider their needs, but many fear cuts in local authoritx
:53:23. > :53:24.funding means that won't happen And thousands of children
:53:25. > :53:27.in the region could miss out I like school, because at school,
:53:28. > :53:39.you feel like a child because you don't have a lot
:53:40. > :53:42.of responsibilities that ard huge. But when you come home,
:53:43. > :53:46.you really feel different. You feel almost like an adult
:53:47. > :53:50.and it's hard. And with us to talk
:53:51. > :53:57.about this is Lily Caprani, Director of Strategy and Policy
:53:58. > :54:08.from the Children's Society. Isn't this the point that pdople
:54:09. > :54:13.like we just saw there are lissing out on their childhood?
:54:14. > :54:16.Unfortunately, in some cases, that's true and The Children's Sochety
:54:17. > :54:20.works with thousands of young carers and for most of them they would say
:54:21. > :54:24.they are very proud of the brilliant job they do and they do it because
:54:25. > :54:27.they love the person they are looking after. Where it gets
:54:28. > :54:31.concerning is where that burden and responsibility becomes so great it
:54:32. > :54:35.starts to take its toll on their education, their health, and it can
:54:36. > :54:40.have devastating on that. Wd have just heard it can be isolathng. You
:54:41. > :54:43.could miss out on friendships. And young carers say to us they don t
:54:44. > :54:46.want to stop caring but the do want more support and a break from time
:54:47. > :54:51.to time and for it to not affect their education. Why the nulbers of
:54:52. > :54:57.young carers on the rise thd East Midlands? When we looked at the
:54:58. > :55:01.census figures, nationally, there's about 166,000 children who `re
:55:02. > :55:05.officially young carers and that's just officially so in all
:55:06. > :55:10.likelihood, if the tip of the iceberg. Over 8000 in the E`st
:55:11. > :55:14.Midlands. They are the ones have been identified. It's awkward to
:55:15. > :55:18.talk about, so we expect thd numbers to be greater. I have gone tp. Quite
:55:19. > :55:22.worryingly, in the younger `ge group in particular, five`year`olds to
:55:23. > :55:28.nine`year`olds, it's gone up steeply. Liz Campbell, the
:55:29. > :55:31.government has issued new gtidelines to make this a priority. Thhs got to
:55:32. > :55:35.be a step forward, surely, the government has done this crhtter
:55:36. > :55:41.mucked I want to come back to the point about identifying young
:55:42. > :55:46.carers. I met a young familx, the father had MS. They helped out and
:55:47. > :55:49.would not think of themselvds as caring. They were just getthng on
:55:50. > :55:56.with it basically, so I think the very first step is got to bd to
:55:57. > :56:00.identify young carers. We ptshed for a duty on schools, colleges and
:56:01. > :56:04.universities to have a duty to identify young carers when the Care
:56:05. > :56:08.Bill was going through. Unfortunately, the government didn't
:56:09. > :56:13.accept that. There has been a step forward in the way assessments
:56:14. > :56:16.should work. Why isn't enough being done here to help these young
:56:17. > :56:24.people? Clearly they need more support. Indeed, and you do on a
:56:25. > :56:28.case`by`case basis, constittency by Council basis and that's ex`ctly
:56:29. > :56:32.what we did in South Derbyshire I got hold of head teachers so they
:56:33. > :56:37.identify these children and also through the GPs, and we havd part of
:56:38. > :56:43.our big society in South Derbyshire, huge church groups look aftdr the
:56:44. > :56:47.carers children, give them respite. There's a sense he also these young
:56:48. > :56:52.people are basically picking up the slack because councils don't have
:56:53. > :56:56.the money. No, no, I won't `ccept that at all. For starters, because
:56:57. > :57:00.of the Care Bill, and what Jeremy Hunt has been doing, there's 2.
:57:01. > :57:12.billion more money coming into this area. It's not you. It's public
:57:13. > :57:16.health areas. It's not your money, Heather. It's definitely not. It's
:57:17. > :57:23.money from the NHS. What I want people to do is roll their sleeves
:57:24. > :57:27.up, go to their GPs in schools and ask how to deal with this bdcause
:57:28. > :57:31.the great respite care which goes on with charities in South Derbyshire
:57:32. > :57:34.is hugely welcome. It's a step in the right direction and I w`nt to
:57:35. > :57:42.see that working all across the country. Labour have said they would
:57:43. > :57:45.repeal the health and social bill. We want to get rid of the
:57:46. > :57:48.fragmentation the government is caused. The Care Bill, we wdre
:57:49. > :57:54.constructive trying to put ht through. You are talking about two
:57:55. > :57:57.different bits of legislation. There's more we could do. That's
:57:58. > :58:04.what we could do. That's wh`t we're pressing for. It arouses a lot of
:58:05. > :58:06.passion in the studio today. Our politicians taking this serhously
:58:07. > :58:12.enough because there's been a for decades? The care act as a welcome
:58:13. > :58:16.step forward and this cross`party consensus that something nedds to
:58:17. > :58:19.improve the young carers and it transcends politics in many ways. We
:58:20. > :58:23.don't want to see children suffering because of the great work they do
:58:24. > :58:27.look and after their familids. It's a long overdue change and it's not
:58:28. > :58:31.yet enforced. If it works, ht will mean when an adult who is dhsabled
:58:32. > :58:34.get assessed and it's worked out whether or not they get card, they
:58:35. > :58:40.have to look at the whole f`mily and that didn't used to happen.
:58:41. > :58:45.Sometimes, young people work... Is the money there? Can you ring fence
:58:46. > :58:48.that money? It is for the ptblic health budget is no huge and I
:58:49. > :58:52.believe actually councils are much better at spending it because they
:58:53. > :58:59.are so much closer to the pdople. You are disagreeing? I think that
:59:00. > :59:06.there's been a lot of talk `bout integrating health and care services
:59:07. > :59:10.and it using budgets togethdr, but anybody who claims that what
:59:11. > :59:15.happened at a social care btdget isn't having a big impact on
:59:16. > :59:19.families and carers and adults with disabilities in children with needs,
:59:20. > :59:25.is living in cloud cuckoo l`nd. What are the consequences if nothing is
:59:26. > :59:30.done? It must improve. If young carers continue to take on too much
:59:31. > :59:34.of a burden of care, 30 hours a week, their education are stffering
:59:35. > :59:38.and we know they can fall bdhind in their GCSEs by nine grades. They end
:59:39. > :59:40.up not getting into employmdnt for soft thank you for coming from
:59:41. > :59:42.London to talk to us. Time for a round`up of some
:59:43. > :59:45.of the other political storhes Here's our Political Editor,
:59:46. > :59:50.John Hess, with 60 seconds. Problems for Leicestershire
:59:51. > :59:52.and Rutland's Police Commissioner His call for an enquiry into a new
:59:53. > :59:57.housing development at Blabx was rejected by the High Court `nd now
:59:58. > :00:01.the panel which oversees his actions has said it regrets the dam`ge
:00:02. > :00:05.his move has done to relationships East Midlands UKIP MEP Roger Helmer
:00:06. > :00:12.may have lost out on a Westlinster seat after the Newark by`eldction,
:00:13. > :00:15.but he is ruling the roost He is now the leader of
:00:16. > :00:20.UKIP's Parliamentary group. It's a role that I hadn't
:00:21. > :00:22.anticipated until just recently when it was mentioned to me, but
:00:23. > :00:26.it's a very exciting role bdcause, as I say, we now have this very
:00:27. > :00:30.large delegation of 24 MEPs, and we We want to be as effective
:00:31. > :00:36.as we can be. And the region's newest
:00:37. > :00:38.MP Robert Jenrick has taken his seat in parliament much to
:00:39. > :00:41.the delight and relief of the Prime Minister who was obviously
:00:42. > :00:44.more than happy to give New`rk's MP And that's the Sunday Polithcs
:00:45. > :00:56.in the East Midlands. Thanks to our guests Heather Wheeler
:00:57. > :00:59.and Liz Kendall now back to Andrew There are big changes afoot
:01:00. > :01:15.in the EU following last month's European elections,
:01:16. > :01:17.not least who'll get the top job But
:01:18. > :01:21.behind the scenes the parties have also been jockeying for position as
:01:22. > :01:24.they try to form the big groups that And UKIP seems to have been
:01:25. > :01:28.struggling to keep its influence Here's Adam to explain
:01:29. > :01:41.how it all works. If you want your party to be a big
:01:42. > :01:45.cheese in the European Parliament, you need to form a political group.
:01:46. > :01:49.By doing this, the party gets more money, more positions on committees
:01:50. > :01:56.and even more speaking rights in the chamber. But the parliament's rules
:01:57. > :02:00.are strict. And to form a group you need a group of 25 MPs from at least
:02:01. > :02:04.seven different countries. For UKIP, the number of MEPs will not be a
:02:05. > :02:09.problem because they already have 24 of their own, but the different
:02:10. > :02:13.nationalities are more of a challenge. Nigel Farage was not
:02:14. > :02:17.helped by the Tories stealing - stealing his former Danish and
:02:18. > :02:26.Finnish allies, and the pen pinching his Italian charms. Nigel needs a
:02:27. > :02:29.new charm and fast. He has already signed up Lithuania's order and
:02:30. > :02:35.justice, a free citizen from Prague, and the Dutchman from the reformed
:02:36. > :02:43.political party. The big signing was the 17 members of the Italian Beppe
:02:44. > :02:46.Griego's 5-star movement, but it leaves UKIP short of two more
:02:47. > :02:50.international powers, and with the clock ticking, it looks like his
:02:51. > :02:53.hopes resting on the Swedish Democrats and the Polish new right
:02:54. > :03:00.Congress. They both make their decisions next week.
:03:01. > :03:06.What is the latest? UKIP have enough MEPs with their pals, but they need
:03:07. > :03:11.seven countries, as I understand it. They are not there yet. They are
:03:12. > :03:15.wrapped five countries and need another two. UKIP are being quite
:03:16. > :03:19.buoyant and say they will be meeting MEPs from five countries next week
:03:20. > :03:21.and are pretty confident they will get those countries, but as Adam was
:03:22. > :05:07.saying, the exposed himself in public, and if he
:05:08. > :05:11.doesn't win it looks uncertain, and he will be in a position where he
:05:12. > :05:14.has to go back to his own party and say they are not getting anywhere.
:05:15. > :05:21.That is dangerous and takes us closer to the Exeter, which I don't
:05:22. > :05:26.think would want. The danger for Mr Cameron is if it is the president of
:05:27. > :05:29.the commission, he will save you cannot stop a federalist becoming
:05:30. > :05:32.head of the European commission what chance do you have of
:05:33. > :05:40.repatriating lots of powers back to London. There are lots of Tory MPs
:05:41. > :05:45.dying to make the argument. My hunch is that he won't make it. There are
:05:46. > :05:47.too many countries opposed to his presidency and even the country
:05:48. > :05:53.notionally in favour of it, Germany, is failing in youth -- enthusiasm.
:05:54. > :05:59.Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give in to the Brits this. Her own side
:06:00. > :06:07.once it as well, though some reason the German media says it. When she
:06:08. > :06:11.tried to reach out and said to look at the other candidates, she got
:06:12. > :06:18.such abuse on the right wing press from her own country and party she
:06:19. > :06:26.had to retreat. Janan is right that there is opposition to Juncker, but
:06:27. > :06:31.as long as Cameron turns it into an argument about Britain and Europe,
:06:32. > :06:38.he will strengthen the hand of Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks
:06:39. > :06:41.Juncker is inappropriate. She did not like the process, which was a
:06:42. > :06:44.power grab by the European Parliament, but when David Cameron
:06:45. > :06:49.went to the council and said that if I don't get my way, we could leave
:06:50. > :06:55.the EU, that led to the backlash, most significantly from the SPD in
:06:56. > :07:00.Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only David Cameron had made the argument
:07:01. > :07:02.that Juncker is bad for Europe, then he would have found his natural
:07:03. > :07:07.allies would have felt more comfortable following behind. Enough
:07:08. > :07:16.Europe. I want to show you a picture. See what you think of this.
:07:17. > :07:22.When I saw that picture, I thought it was so ludicrous that it had to
:07:23. > :07:26.have been photo shop. Discuss. He is holding it with a certain disdain,
:07:27. > :07:31.looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous picture for Ed Miliband. His
:07:32. > :07:37.strength is authenticity, sincerity and cleverness. And he blows all of
:07:38. > :07:42.that. He was the one who took on Murdoch, very bravely and
:07:43. > :07:47.dangerously, and one, really. Now there he is supporting Murdoch's
:07:48. > :07:50.son. It's a big mistake, not just in Liverpool, where obviously they are
:07:51. > :07:56.particularly incensed. And then he apologises. Sort of apologises and
:07:57. > :08:02.understands why Liverpool feels upset. But it is a fundamental error
:08:03. > :08:05.and I hope he learns from this, that he must absolutely stay true to
:08:06. > :08:12.himself. That's all he's got going for him. Who do we blame? His
:08:13. > :08:21.advisers or himself? In the end himself. Nobody forced him to do it.
:08:22. > :08:29.On this one, he called it wrong It's a sign of the rather the bridal
:08:30. > :08:32.state of the Labour Party is that his candidates were vocal in
:08:33. > :08:39.attacking him doing this. It's a sign of how readable Ed Miliband is
:08:40. > :08:45.at Parliamentary level. I don't think you should have apologised.
:08:46. > :08:53.The mistake he made was associating himself with that newspaper. The
:08:54. > :08:59.mistake was the prior three years when he went too far as portraying
:09:00. > :09:01.the Murdoch empire beyond the pale. He made a case against phone hacking
:09:02. > :09:07.and offences in that regard without going as far as he did with the
:09:08. > :09:10.rhetoric. To do that, and then pose with the Sun newspaper, the
:09:11. > :09:17.juxtaposition is what did for him, not the mere fact of posing with it.
:09:18. > :09:18.Maybe he did not know what he was doing because we were told he
:09:19. > :09:22.doesn't read the British newspapers. It was football, and he
:09:23. > :09:29.has posed with the Sun newspaper before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg
:09:30. > :09:33.posed as well. But with the Sun newspaper and football, you tread
:09:34. > :09:36.carefully. That was the mistake You get the impression from the picture
:09:37. > :09:39.that he looks so uncomfortable that you wonder whether there was a full
:09:40. > :09:44.process of consultation that went on within his media operation, within
:09:45. > :09:46.his political operation. Was he fully aware of what would happen
:09:47. > :09:50.question what he looks so incredibly uncomfortable. But at the end of the
:09:51. > :09:56.day, leaders have to take responsibility. It is cultural as
:09:57. > :10:00.well. That picture says, I am down there with the football blokes and
:10:01. > :10:04.you think, you are not. That is not what people will vote for. Be
:10:05. > :10:08.yourself and don't pretend to be something else because it never
:10:09. > :10:13.works. But the polls suggest that the British voters don't yet see Ed
:10:14. > :10:17.Miliband as prime ministerial. The worst thing you can then do is get
:10:18. > :10:21.involved in stunts that are more likely to reinforce that idea than
:10:22. > :10:25.counter it. There was a precedent for it in the last parliament which
:10:26. > :10:31.was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign a populist touch. He did it by
:10:32. > :10:38.telling the contents of his iPod. The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred
:10:39. > :10:41.because he was trying too hard. Not uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband all
:10:42. > :10:46.the other leaders have done it. At the moment he more vulnerable. Yes,
:10:47. > :10:51.and he is less popular than his party. Labour has quite a popular
:10:52. > :10:55.brand, in a resilient way, in a way they don't with the Tories, yet
:10:56. > :11:00.their leader is a personal problem. The pressure is on him to do stunts
:11:01. > :11:05.like this. Will there be a shadow cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to
:11:06. > :11:07.get the cabinet reshuffle out of the way first, and that might come next
:11:08. > :11:11.week, maybe by the time of the summer recess, but the first thing
:11:12. > :11:17.that the prime Minister do is work out who is the UK candidate for the
:11:18. > :11:21.European Commissioner. Is it not the case probably that Ed Balls is
:11:22. > :11:26.becoming semi-detached from the Ed Miliband project? I don't think
:11:27. > :11:30.entirely. Nothing gets agreed without both of the end are green.
:11:31. > :11:35.Ed Balls is controversial. He has great pluses and minuses and is a
:11:36. > :11:39.big figure. Labour doesn't have that many big figures. It's quite hard to
:11:40. > :11:42.think who would be a heavy hitter as a possible Chancellor. He is a
:11:43. > :11:50.convincing chancellor to the future, Love him. He has the heft -- love
:11:51. > :11:54.him or hate him. Any possibility Ed Balls could be moved as shadow
:11:55. > :11:57.chancellor? The timing is convenient because the Scottish referendum ends
:11:58. > :12:02.in the autumn and Alistair Darling becomes a free man, win or lose I
:12:03. > :12:04.don't think Ed Balls will be removed because moving him would be an
:12:05. > :12:07.admission that everything the Labour Party said about the economy to the
:12:08. > :12:11.preceding four years has been a mistake. And you can't do that nine
:12:12. > :12:16.months before a general election. You invite ridicule. But relations
:12:17. > :12:20.between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are not great at the moment. The Ed
:12:21. > :12:23.Miliband team are very, very suspicious of this new love in
:12:24. > :12:29.between Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say
:12:30. > :12:32.that he spotted the Ed Balls talents in the original place and appointed
:12:33. > :12:37.him to the Gordon Brown team after the disaster of 1992. But things
:12:38. > :12:43.obviously went awry, and now Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue
:12:44. > :12:48.Rappaport, and that is with enormous suspicion -- they have a new
:12:49. > :12:51.Rappaport. With good reason because it's about policy. It's about the
:12:52. > :12:56.attitude towards business. Should they be out there saying they will
:12:57. > :13:01.get the tax dodgers, Starbucks, Vodafone, are we going to take on
:13:02. > :13:04.business in a big way? In a way that Ed Miliband has quite bravely said.
:13:05. > :13:09.On the other hand, Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on,
:13:10. > :13:10.we only won in 1997 by being business friendly. Sorry to rush
:13:11. > :13:12.you. We are running out of time The Daily Politics will be back
:13:13. > :13:16.every day this week at midday, and I'll be back here next Sunday
:13:17. > :13:19.when I'll be joined by the shadow work and pensions
:13:20. > :13:21.secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:22. > :13:53.it's the Sunday Politics. Magnificent. The power base
:13:54. > :13:59.of medieval England. Charles' ceiling was a piece
:14:00. > :14:05.of breathtaking arrogance. You get a sense of the people
:14:06. > :14:13.who made the palaces. as I unlock the secrets
:14:14. > :14:17.of Britain's great palaces.