:00:38. > :00:47.No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.
:00:48. > :00:51.But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?
:00:52. > :00:54.Doctors want to ban smoking outright.
:00:55. > :00:57.A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all
:00:58. > :01:11.Fewer hospital beds and fewer medical staff `
:01:12. > :01:28.Plus, should teachers sit exams with their students?
:01:29. > :01:31.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:32. > :01:42.panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:43. > :01:44.They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in
:01:45. > :01:47.Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence
:01:48. > :01:49.He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made
:01:50. > :01:51.it big in the world of European politic.
:01:52. > :01:55.I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg
:01:56. > :01:59.He'll soon be President of the European Commission,
:02:00. > :02:05.He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.
:02:06. > :02:09.But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up
:02:10. > :02:24.on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.
:02:25. > :02:27.-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist
:02:28. > :02:29.So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes
:02:30. > :02:32.of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?
:02:33. > :02:37.Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington
:02:38. > :02:43.Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr
:02:44. > :02:46.Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got
:02:47. > :02:51.harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The
:02:52. > :02:57.majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts
:02:58. > :03:01.power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right
:03:02. > :03:09.cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European
:03:10. > :03:18.Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European
:03:19. > :03:21.countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of
:03:22. > :03:24.Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on
:03:25. > :03:26.how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the
:03:27. > :03:32.mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming
:03:33. > :03:37.European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The
:03:38. > :03:43.Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to
:03:44. > :03:49.integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.
:03:50. > :03:53.What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at
:03:54. > :04:02.different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new
:04:03. > :04:12.Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the
:04:13. > :04:17.approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime
:04:18. > :04:20.Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general
:04:21. > :04:25.acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to
:04:26. > :04:28.the single currency will want to press forward with closer
:04:29. > :04:33.integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country
:04:34. > :04:38.in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern
:04:39. > :04:42.that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with
:04:43. > :04:48.28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the
:04:49. > :04:53.extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and
:04:54. > :04:56.integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable
:04:57. > :05:01.geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is
:05:02. > :05:04.that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the
:05:05. > :05:10.slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which
:05:11. > :05:23.backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that
:05:24. > :05:26.there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to
:05:27. > :05:29.seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the
:05:30. > :05:33.election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the
:05:34. > :05:37.British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the
:05:38. > :05:39.British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will
:05:40. > :05:43.take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron
:05:44. > :05:48.secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,
:05:49. > :05:53.not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with
:05:54. > :05:59.Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't
:06:00. > :06:03.think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of
:06:04. > :06:11.reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do
:06:12. > :06:23.put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission
:06:24. > :06:28.to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers
:06:29. > :06:32.around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things
:06:33. > :06:35.cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger
:06:36. > :06:40.of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of
:06:41. > :06:43.work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of
:06:44. > :06:45.countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election
:06:46. > :06:50.results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing
:06:51. > :06:53.parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing
:06:54. > :07:01.real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch
:07:02. > :07:05.decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the
:07:06. > :07:10.condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would
:07:11. > :07:17.have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.
:07:18. > :07:20.Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role
:07:21. > :07:28.in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed
:07:29. > :07:32.up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from
:07:33. > :07:36.that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I
:07:37. > :07:39.think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and
:07:40. > :07:45.it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament
:07:46. > :07:50.to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.
:07:51. > :07:55.They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are
:07:56. > :08:01.the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms
:08:02. > :08:08.of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The
:08:09. > :08:15.current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The
:08:16. > :08:19.Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?
:08:20. > :08:25.We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at
:08:26. > :08:27.the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on
:08:28. > :08:38.whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you
:08:39. > :08:41.think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but
:08:42. > :08:46.also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't
:08:47. > :08:50.challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.
:08:51. > :08:55.Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of
:08:56. > :08:58.State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the
:08:59. > :09:02.existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He
:09:03. > :09:06.doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is
:09:07. > :09:09.the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the
:09:10. > :09:16.position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a
:09:17. > :09:21.distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government
:09:22. > :09:24.now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and
:09:25. > :09:28.the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that
:09:29. > :09:33.important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and
:09:34. > :09:37.that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a
:09:38. > :09:44.whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going
:09:45. > :09:49.to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in
:09:50. > :09:53.2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For
:09:54. > :09:56.one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press
:09:57. > :10:00.ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done
:10:01. > :10:06.in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain
:10:07. > :10:10.outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of
:10:11. > :10:13.migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this
:10:14. > :10:17.week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will
:10:18. > :10:20.you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the
:10:21. > :10:24.government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the
:10:25. > :10:31.election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg
:10:32. > :10:36.speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,
:10:37. > :10:39.more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is
:10:40. > :10:43.all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's
:10:44. > :10:48.not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in
:10:49. > :10:54.the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries
:10:55. > :10:58.those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories
:10:59. > :11:02.and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,
:11:03. > :11:04.will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and
:11:05. > :11:12.perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank
:11:13. > :11:17.you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there
:11:18. > :11:20.is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring
:11:21. > :11:25.back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I
:11:26. > :11:29.think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,
:11:30. > :11:33.those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay
:11:34. > :11:36.regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on
:11:37. > :11:41.renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would
:11:42. > :11:45.vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20
:11:46. > :11:49.years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only
:11:50. > :11:53.stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be
:11:54. > :12:00.re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the
:12:01. > :12:03.referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single
:12:04. > :12:08.biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not
:12:09. > :12:13.what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure
:12:14. > :12:17.to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against
:12:18. > :12:21.Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr
:12:22. > :12:25.Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only
:12:26. > :12:30.because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these
:12:31. > :12:33.changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that
:12:34. > :12:39.would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the
:12:40. > :12:44.biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of
:12:45. > :12:51.coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of
:12:52. > :12:54.benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of
:12:55. > :12:57.movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is
:12:58. > :13:02.a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is
:13:03. > :13:05.also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was
:13:06. > :13:10.encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not
:13:11. > :13:14.say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted
:13:15. > :13:17.in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The
:13:18. > :13:28.fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when
:13:29. > :13:31.he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling
:13:32. > :13:33.to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela
:13:34. > :13:36.Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the
:13:37. > :13:39.European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,
:13:40. > :13:43.he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this
:13:44. > :13:47.basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was
:13:48. > :13:50.presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there
:13:51. > :13:55.was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I
:13:56. > :13:59.understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.
:14:00. > :14:05.I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that
:14:06. > :14:10.he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his
:14:11. > :14:14.backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They
:14:15. > :14:17.don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to
:14:18. > :14:21.draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that
:14:22. > :14:24.sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to
:14:25. > :14:28.Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people
:14:29. > :14:33.will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on
:14:34. > :14:40.Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for
:14:41. > :14:42.immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who
:14:43. > :14:44.John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is
:14:45. > :14:48.replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by
:14:49. > :14:50.arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by
:14:51. > :15:12.staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would
:15:13. > :15:15.leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common
:15:16. > :15:23.foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims
:15:24. > :15:26.which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change
:15:27. > :15:34.anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of
:15:35. > :15:39.these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants
:15:40. > :15:44.to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the
:15:45. > :15:49.chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,
:15:50. > :15:56.doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big
:15:57. > :16:02.things to get through first in domestic politics before we even
:16:03. > :16:07.reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom
:16:08. > :16:13.this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,
:16:14. > :16:17.are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to
:16:18. > :16:23.be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they
:16:24. > :16:27.going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the
:16:28. > :16:32.sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK
:16:33. > :16:38.stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David
:16:39. > :16:42.Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a
:16:43. > :16:49.danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes
:16:50. > :16:54.correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press
:16:55. > :16:59.comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold
:17:00. > :17:04.Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to
:17:05. > :17:08.say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is
:17:09. > :17:14.different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it
:17:15. > :17:18.cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government
:17:19. > :17:24.to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land
:17:25. > :17:28.will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on
:17:29. > :17:34.the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European
:17:35. > :17:38.Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the
:17:39. > :17:42.line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting
:17:43. > :17:54.dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will
:17:55. > :18:00.not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party.
:18:01. > :18:05.If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is
:18:06. > :18:09.working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority
:18:10. > :18:14.of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see
:18:15. > :18:19.there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined
:18:20. > :18:24.ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had
:18:25. > :18:31.about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it
:18:32. > :18:34.is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a
:18:35. > :18:40.referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious
:18:41. > :18:46.consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking
:18:47. > :18:50.about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people
:18:51. > :18:57.to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his
:18:58. > :19:01.party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a
:19:02. > :19:06.whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything
:19:07. > :19:10.we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future
:19:11. > :19:15.integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are
:19:16. > :19:20.upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being
:19:21. > :19:24.passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are
:19:25. > :19:29.prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in
:19:30. > :19:34.charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into
:19:35. > :19:39.which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence
:19:40. > :19:50.Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib
:19:51. > :19:54.Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what
:19:55. > :19:57.the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the
:19:58. > :20:02.choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political
:20:03. > :20:07.leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we
:20:08. > :20:11.went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the
:20:12. > :20:17.individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I
:20:18. > :20:21.mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his
:20:22. > :20:29.views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a
:20:30. > :20:33.small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of
:20:34. > :20:44.America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is
:20:45. > :20:56.really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we
:20:57. > :21:02.closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the
:21:03. > :21:11.idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers
:21:12. > :21:19.back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly
:21:20. > :21:24.been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that
:21:25. > :21:29.has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are
:21:30. > :21:33.we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship
:21:34. > :21:45.with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or
:21:46. > :21:50.another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on
:21:51. > :21:54.and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can
:21:55. > :21:59.remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the
:22:00. > :22:05.referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it
:22:06. > :22:10.sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is
:22:11. > :22:17.a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we
:22:18. > :22:27.will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to
:22:28. > :22:32.ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I
:22:33. > :22:36.thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the
:22:37. > :22:43.Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional
:22:44. > :22:47.implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to
:22:48. > :22:55.established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we
:22:56. > :22:58.mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the
:22:59. > :23:03.institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by
:23:04. > :23:10.federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate
:23:11. > :23:14.but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains
:23:15. > :23:23.national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it
:23:24. > :23:27.makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the
:23:28. > :23:38.Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU
:23:39. > :23:42.wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you
:23:43. > :23:48.liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to
:23:49. > :23:52.you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be
:23:53. > :23:58.disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only
:23:59. > :24:03.had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,
:24:04. > :24:09.France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of
:24:10. > :24:15.menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the
:24:16. > :24:23.North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an
:24:24. > :24:32.army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms
:24:33. > :24:37.of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you
:24:38. > :24:41.can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having
:24:42. > :24:46.the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the
:24:47. > :24:52.United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,
:24:53. > :24:58.Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is
:24:59. > :25:03.an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want
:25:04. > :25:07.to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a
:25:08. > :25:23.referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he
:25:24. > :25:28.was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and
:25:29. > :25:31.restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw
:25:32. > :25:36.everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born
:25:37. > :25:41.after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those
:25:42. > :25:47.plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British
:25:48. > :25:52.was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men
:25:53. > :25:57.smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a
:25:58. > :26:02.political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in
:26:03. > :26:12.those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,
:26:13. > :26:17.more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that
:26:18. > :26:28.thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in
:26:29. > :26:31.enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately
:26:32. > :26:38.we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think
:26:39. > :26:43.it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has
:26:44. > :26:48.improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.
:26:49. > :26:54.Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on
:26:55. > :26:58.those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the
:26:59. > :27:05.introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride
:27:06. > :27:18.in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.
:27:19. > :27:21.We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson
:27:22. > :27:24.from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban
:27:25. > :27:28.on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark
:27:29. > :27:38.They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are
:27:39. > :27:47.bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in
:27:48. > :27:52.our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as
:27:53. > :27:57.children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start
:27:58. > :28:01.smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for
:28:02. > :28:06.you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we
:28:07. > :28:11.totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make
:28:12. > :28:16.that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol
:28:17. > :28:19.eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is
:28:20. > :28:24.totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes
:28:25. > :28:28.which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping
:28:29. > :28:34.children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops
:28:35. > :28:39.shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so
:28:40. > :28:45.you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a
:28:46. > :28:50.36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you
:28:51. > :28:54.will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the
:28:55. > :28:58.younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily
:28:59. > :29:04.addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this
:29:05. > :29:09.becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you
:29:10. > :29:13.would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have
:29:14. > :29:17.no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if
:29:18. > :29:23.we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2
:29:24. > :29:27.years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't
:29:28. > :29:31.have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their
:29:32. > :29:36.20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes
:29:37. > :29:39.the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting
:29:40. > :29:45.cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get
:29:46. > :29:56.better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is
:29:57. > :30:01.going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.
:30:02. > :30:04.Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see
:30:05. > :30:09.adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is
:30:10. > :30:13.for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop
:30:14. > :30:17.young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they
:30:18. > :30:27.never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds
:30:28. > :30:33.who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government
:30:34. > :30:37.increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to
:30:38. > :30:43.18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,
:30:44. > :30:46.we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal
:30:47. > :30:52.says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a
:30:53. > :30:55.motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There
:30:56. > :30:58.is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they
:30:59. > :31:03.doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not
:31:04. > :31:06.about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and
:31:07. > :31:10.they have to get their act together because they are bringing the
:31:11. > :31:15.medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about
:31:16. > :31:20.things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,
:31:21. > :31:22.but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes
:31:23. > :31:28.altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s
:31:29. > :31:33.not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to
:31:34. > :31:37.smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would
:31:38. > :31:44.be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So
:31:45. > :31:47.even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke,
:31:48. > :31:54.just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the
:31:55. > :31:58.habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so
:31:59. > :32:02.that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so
:32:03. > :32:06.important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One
:32:07. > :32:09.thing you will find is that throughout the world people is
:32:10. > :32:13.looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and
:32:14. > :32:17.different countries like Australia, they were the first with a
:32:18. > :32:20.standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all
:32:21. > :32:25.of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the
:32:26. > :32:29.tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with
:32:30. > :32:33.cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going
:32:34. > :32:37.head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal
:32:38. > :32:40.representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be "
:32:41. > :32:43.So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going?
:32:44. > :32:45.Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,
:32:46. > :32:48.but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what
:32:49. > :32:49.parliament might look like after the next year's general election.
:32:50. > :32:56.Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to
:32:57. > :32:59.Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of
:33:00. > :33:05.Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010
:33:06. > :33:08.more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but
:33:09. > :33:17.not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.
:33:18. > :33:23.Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female
:33:24. > :33:29.MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and
:33:30. > :33:34.the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have
:33:35. > :33:37.selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and
:33:38. > :33:40.to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been
:33:41. > :33:45.trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts
:33:46. > :33:50.and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the
:33:51. > :33:55.all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the
:33:56. > :33:58.whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long
:33:59. > :34:10.way to go on the issue of being representative. So we
:34:11. > :34:10.way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack
:34:11. > :34:11.of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.
:34:12. > :34:43.In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they
:34:44. > :34:49.got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%
:34:50. > :34:51.The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy
:34:52. > :34:53.at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most
:34:54. > :34:56.marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn
:34:57. > :34:59.In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected
:35:00. > :35:05.If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones
:35:06. > :35:08.they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.
:35:09. > :35:12.The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won
:35:13. > :35:15.at the last election, if they manage that, they would have
:35:16. > :35:20.However all the indications are it could be
:35:21. > :35:24.a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform
:35:25. > :35:29.swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.
:35:30. > :35:33.One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all
:35:34. > :35:36.options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is
:35:37. > :35:50.The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at
:35:51. > :35:57.evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life
:35:58. > :36:01.experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.
:36:02. > :36:03.They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be
:36:04. > :36:07.represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary
:36:08. > :36:09.projection for gender, According to the last census
:36:10. > :36:14.in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from
:36:15. > :36:20.black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they
:36:21. > :36:23.get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party
:36:24. > :36:28.were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME
:36:29. > :36:34.candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,
:36:35. > :36:38.that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats
:36:39. > :36:46.don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling
:36:47. > :36:52.on to their current number of seats they would have two,
:36:53. > :36:55.giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost
:36:56. > :36:57.their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix
:36:58. > :37:07.of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve
:37:08. > :37:09.the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to
:37:10. > :37:13.a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford
:37:14. > :37:21.or Cambridge. Only a fifth
:37:22. > :37:29.of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with
:37:30. > :37:32.the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like
:37:33. > :37:36.us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they
:37:37. > :37:41.cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the
:37:42. > :37:44.turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20
:37:45. > :37:47.points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and
:37:48. > :37:49.that is getting worse with single election.
:37:50. > :37:52.And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a
:37:53. > :37:55.Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get
:37:56. > :38:04.It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:05. > :38:07.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:08. > :38:11.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.
:38:12. > :38:23.The power of the backbencher. the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:24. > :38:26.We meet the MPs who make Prime Ministers tremble.
:38:27. > :38:29.If you can swap your desire for power for asking diffictlt
:38:30. > :38:38.Being a backbench MP can be very rewarding indeed.
:38:39. > :38:42.Should teachers sit exams alongside their pupils?
:38:43. > :38:45.I think it just adds added pressure, because when you're in your exams,
:38:46. > :38:49.you don't want to turn round and your teacher is sitting there,
:38:50. > :38:53.you want to be calm and ready for the exam, so I don't think ht is
:38:54. > :38:59.Hello, I'm Mhairi Ashby and my guests this
:39:00. > :39:01.week, two backbenchers who cause more trouble than most.
:39:02. > :39:06.Andrew Bridgen and is the Conservative MP for
:39:07. > :39:09.North West Leicestershire and John Mann is the Labour MP for B`ssetlaw
:39:10. > :39:12.But first, the plans for a radical shake`up of hdalth
:39:13. > :39:15.Under proposals announced this week, Leicestershire and Rutland will
:39:16. > :39:18.lose acute services and have fewer hospital beds.
:39:19. > :39:23.The Better Care Together pl`n unveiled by health bosses w`rns that
:39:24. > :39:27.NHS services in the two counties are heading
:39:28. > :39:30.for a ?400 million shortfall unless something is done to cut costs.
:39:31. > :39:33.The plans include reducing the number of acute care hospit`ls in
:39:34. > :39:37.Leicester from three to two, with Leicester General Hospital dealing
:39:38. > :39:43.It also calls for investment in better facilities
:39:44. > :39:49.The plan is expected to lead to fewer hospital beds and job cuts.
:39:50. > :39:52.Well, Andrew Bridgen, fully last week, we were talking about the
:39:53. > :39:58.NHS Trust in Leicester having the biggest debt in the country
:39:59. > :40:03.These latest cuts are as a direct result of this, or they?
:40:04. > :40:21.No, these plans have been created by health care professionals
:40:22. > :40:22.looking forward to the future health care requhrements
:40:23. > :40:25.of the city and the county this is their response to that.
:40:26. > :40:28.What we are actually seeing is migration of health services
:40:29. > :40:32.So you're saying this has got nothing to do with the huge deficit
:40:33. > :40:36.The trust had a ?39 million deficit last year, I don't
:40:37. > :40:40.I think Peterborough has got far the biggest deficit.
:40:41. > :40:41.No, Leicestershire Leicester was higher.
:40:42. > :40:43.That has got to be addressed, but what we are looking
:40:44. > :40:46.at is a long`term plan for the shape of health card moving
:40:47. > :40:50.So you're saying this is a good thing?
:40:51. > :40:55.Most people do not want to go into hospital, most people want to
:40:56. > :41:00.GPs are going to be offering more primary care, and it is good for the
:41:01. > :41:03.patients, it is good for elderly people with complex morbidities
:41:04. > :41:06.There is a funding gap of ?400 million over the next four xears.
:41:07. > :41:09.Well, you know that health has had a special case as far
:41:10. > :41:10.as the austerity measures under the Coalition Government.
:41:11. > :41:13.We have actually increased health spending well above inflation,
:41:14. > :41:16.which is in contrast to what Labour would have done, they would have cut
:41:17. > :41:20.Well, John, the health servhces behind this plan have told ts that
:41:21. > :41:23.they want to use the financhal challenges to reorganise and come up
:41:24. > :41:27.The report actually says, working together will provide more
:41:28. > :41:29.community`based projects and support for patients to live at
:41:30. > :41:42.Keeping people out of hospital is a good thing?
:41:43. > :41:44.Anyone going into hospital is a bad thing,
:41:45. > :41:50.However much Andrew and the Tories try and rest this up, cuts cuts
:41:51. > :41:53.cuts, the cutting the National Health Service and the way to change
:41:54. > :41:56.the National Health Service is by putting money in and by improving it
:41:57. > :41:58.and by ensuring everyone gets the best treatment. These ctts,
:41:59. > :42:01.you know the phrase is workhng together, what is coming next?
:42:02. > :42:04.A huge cut, doctors jobs gohng, patients suffering, it is what this
:42:05. > :42:11.government is about, and we are going to see a lot more of ht.
:42:12. > :42:14.Stop dressing it up, Andrew, and start apologising.
:42:15. > :42:19.You start apologising for your manifesto last timd where
:42:20. > :42:22.you proposed what would havd been a 20% cut in the NHS budget.
:42:23. > :42:24.We protected that and gave it extra money.
:42:25. > :42:29.Is cuts, cuts, cuts, and we are seeing it in my `rea
:42:30. > :42:31.as well, we are seeing privatisation and Nottinghalshire
:42:32. > :42:38.Patients are starting to go private, because they can't get
:42:39. > :42:42.To be fair, Andrew the report says pretty clearly that thdre
:42:43. > :42:47.It actually says the exact number of job cuts is not yet clear,
:42:48. > :42:49.but it is not denying that there will be job cuts.
:42:50. > :42:51.That is because there is a migration of services
:42:52. > :42:56.from hospitals to GP practices and primary care, and that is the plan.
:42:57. > :42:59.At a time where we have got a huge shortage of GPs?
:43:00. > :43:05.GPs are running this now, through their clinical commissioning groups.
:43:06. > :43:08.They are shaping the structtre of care.
:43:09. > :43:11.For far too long, the NHS has been run from Whitehall
:43:12. > :43:14.What we are actually doing hs empowering
:43:15. > :43:16.the clinical professionals to come up with decisions of how thdy are
:43:17. > :43:20.Set more GPs on, well thank you very much.
:43:21. > :43:23.You have cut the training btdget, you've cut the numbers.
:43:24. > :43:26.It takes years to train up ` doctor, and you are cutting doctors,
:43:27. > :43:30.cutting nurses, cutting other health specialist
:43:31. > :43:36.Where would the NHS have bedn if Labour had got into power
:43:37. > :43:47.Not getting cut, and Bevan said you have got to stand up for thd NHS
:43:48. > :43:51.if you want it, now is the time for people to fight against you lot
:43:52. > :43:56.OK, well as we have just sedn, our guests might not agree on much,
:43:57. > :43:59.but there is one thing that they do definitely have in common,
:44:00. > :44:02.they are very effective exponents of the art of back benching.
:44:03. > :44:04.We thought while they were both here, we might
:44:05. > :44:07.find out a little bit more `bout how they go about their business.
:44:08. > :44:10.But first, Chris Doig takes a look at how the backbenchdr can be
:44:11. > :44:19.If you are Cameron, Clegg, Milleband or Farage, there hs
:44:20. > :44:23.a threat more scary even th`n that of a bad opinion poll, becatse more
:44:24. > :44:26.dangerous than the public's opinion is the opinion of the men and women
:44:27. > :44:33.Does my right honourable friend `gree
:44:34. > :44:35.with me that continued criminalisation the people whose
:44:36. > :44:37.only crime is being poor is completely untenable?
:44:38. > :44:40.The evasiveness of the government on this matter has not escaped
:44:41. > :44:47.so much no one can remember where the party line is, or their mouth is
:44:48. > :44:57.What do I do with my money, do I take it out this rotten,
:44:58. > :45:01.Backbench MPs can be unruly, disloyal...
:45:02. > :45:15.With power in their constittency, and some independently wealthy like
:45:16. > :45:19.Andrew Bridgen, many back bdnchers feel they have little to lose.
:45:20. > :45:21.My questions surround this project have been asked, but
:45:22. > :45:26.As we all know, the best se`t on the school bus is the one at thd back.
:45:27. > :45:28.You are grossly negligent, or you are grossly incompetdnt.
:45:29. > :45:30.It seems the backbenchers have all the fun too.
:45:31. > :45:32.But wait, we are forgetting something very important.
:45:33. > :45:35.The former West Derbyshire LP Matthew Parris recalls tellhng
:45:36. > :45:37.his constituency association that he would settle for being Home
:45:38. > :45:41.Secretary, because Prime Minister would have sounded pretentious.
:45:42. > :45:46.In the end, maybe Minister for Transport, he thought, tntil he
:45:47. > :45:49.lowered his ambitions to just being on a select committee and going to
:45:50. > :45:52.junkets to the Humber Bridgd, or a bus carriage in Toronto.
:45:53. > :45:55.Not surprisingly, Mr Parris ended up in a much more important career
:45:56. > :46:06.The crushing disappointment doled out by the slippery pole is a game
:46:07. > :46:15.Almost every new MP secretlx wants to live at number ten, have tea with
:46:16. > :46:17.the Queen, and have a speci`l Branch codenamed like Princess.
:46:18. > :46:19.Most will be the bridesmaid and never the bride.
:46:20. > :46:22.But if you can stomach the smell of regret and unfulfilled
:46:23. > :46:24.potential, then the life of a backbencher isn't too bad.
:46:25. > :46:27.They are paid ?67,000 a year, you get to tell the governmdnt what
:46:28. > :46:30.it is doing wrong, and the thoughts of select commhttees,
:46:31. > :46:35.panels of backbench MPs stuffed full of the mischievous and vengdful
:46:36. > :46:48.I'm a big fan of getting answers from you.
:46:49. > :46:51.If you can swap your desire for power
:46:52. > :46:54.for asking difficult questions and causing trouble, being a backbench
:46:55. > :47:07.Four Chris Doiges there for the price of one, I think you could say.
:47:08. > :47:10.A few years ago, Andrew, people were saying that the backbencher was
:47:11. > :47:13.dead, that MPs just followed their leader, but I guess with Tony Blair
:47:14. > :47:18.and Gordon Brown, they had huge majorities and they didn't have to
:47:19. > :47:21.listen, but now that this is a coalition, do backbenchers
:47:22. > :47:23.like yourself have more powdr because every vote counts?
:47:24. > :47:26.I think turning to an intakd of the more independently minded, ht was
:47:27. > :47:31.a very large intake, so it really altered the sort of structure of the
:47:32. > :47:33.house, where a small intake can be absorbed into the status quo
:47:34. > :47:35.I think because the intake was so large,
:47:36. > :47:44.I think the fact that we ard in a coalition, and I think for `
:47:45. > :47:49.Conservative backbenchers to realise that 57 Liberal Democrats h`ve such
:47:50. > :47:53.power over the government, ht is not hard then to work out that hf I can
:47:54. > :47:56.get 56 of my colleagues on the backbenches of my party, we can have
:47:57. > :47:59.as much say over what the government policy is as the Liberal Delocrats.
:48:00. > :48:10.I don't know about more powdr, but the role of an MP is not to
:48:11. > :48:13.spend their time sucking up to some top politician and saying ghve me
:48:14. > :48:16.a job, it is to represent the people who have put you there.
:48:17. > :48:21.And, you know, for better or for worse, to put forward what you
:48:22. > :48:25.If the government is doing something good, get more of it for yotr area,
:48:26. > :48:28.and if they are doing something bad, stop it in your area.
:48:29. > :48:31.Well, we know, John, that you are always very happy to offer `
:48:32. > :48:37.friendly advice to your own leader, but if Labour do get into power
:48:38. > :48:41.does that outspoken persona that you have, does that hold you back?
:48:42. > :48:44.If it comes to getting a job in Cabinet, if they get into power?
:48:45. > :48:46.I am not really interested in the greasy pole.
:48:47. > :48:52.Do I want to live in ten Downing St, I can tell you, no.
:48:53. > :48:55.I wouldn't dream of living hn some kind of a mansion house likd that.
:48:56. > :48:58.If Labour is in power, I will be there twisting arls to
:48:59. > :49:02.ensure that the very best comes to my area, so that there is more money
:49:03. > :49:07.If there is more money for the NHS, I wanted.
:49:08. > :49:09.If there is more money for new roads, I want it.
:49:10. > :49:12.And I will get more access hf Labour is in power,
:49:13. > :49:16.And you don't care that it might damage your career?
:49:17. > :49:19.By being outspoken and upsetting a few people along the way,
:49:20. > :49:24.If I don't upset people on the way, I am not doing the job propdrly
:49:25. > :50:04.I do, at the end of the day, common sense isn't always
:50:05. > :50:08.as common in the House of Commons as you'd like it to be and I think the
:50:09. > :50:14.However I finished being an MP, I want to look back at Hans`rd and
:50:15. > :50:17.say, yes, I don't take any of that back, everything I said I bdlieved
:50:18. > :50:22.Well give us some of the trhcks of the trade, then.
:50:23. > :50:25.How do you go about making an impact as a backbencher?
:50:26. > :50:28.Well, you get a government linister, and you say to them, indirectly
:50:29. > :50:32.I am going to make you a st`r and a hero, or I am going to make
:50:33. > :50:38.What backbenchers do have, we have the power of the argument, `nd
:50:39. > :50:42.if you make that argument wdll and you can persuade colleagues, not
:50:43. > :50:45.It is always about putting your case over well, isn't ht?
:50:46. > :50:49.Then you get a chance to make that case to the media, and if you take
:50:50. > :50:52.the people with you, the power of the argument is very strong.
:50:53. > :50:56.It's a shame he doesn't fault with me more often.
:50:57. > :50:59.He is always agreeing with le, I'm always speaking, and he's up there
:51:00. > :51:02.nodding, thumbs up all the time that is alliance across the chamber.
:51:03. > :51:05.What he needs to do is transfer that into votes.
:51:06. > :51:07.That might get some popularhty for you then.
:51:08. > :51:09.What effect has social medi` had for both of you?
:51:10. > :51:11.I mean, John, you take to Twitter quite a lot
:51:12. > :51:14.Oh, yes, I get plenty of abtse from people, normally from London.
:51:15. > :51:18.I am interested in what the good people further north think,
:51:19. > :51:21.They tell me, in no uncertahn terms, and I take
:51:22. > :51:23.their life experiences and their advice back into Parlhament.
:51:24. > :51:26.If it is a Labour Prime Minhster, they will be hearing
:51:27. > :51:29.from me what the people of Bassetlaw think In no uncertain terms.
:51:30. > :51:32.How much pressure do you cole under to toe the party line, though?
:51:33. > :51:34.Because you must come under pressure.
:51:35. > :51:36.On the government benches, obvious the votes are predominantly whipped.
:51:37. > :51:39.But at the end of the day, bigger all free vote if you are
:51:40. > :51:43.At the end of the day, it is down to each member's
:51:44. > :51:48.What I would say is to the listeners or the viewers is when we are
:51:49. > :51:51.discussing politics in the local pub, it is all black`and`whhte.
:51:52. > :51:54.It is a little more shades of grey when you're down taking part in it.
:51:55. > :51:58.You don't agree with each other at all, do you?
:51:59. > :52:01.Well, he is a favourite of privatising the NHS.
:52:02. > :52:04.I say to the whips, don't tell me how to vote, xour job
:52:05. > :52:11.Well, the latest target for Andrew Bridgen's fire is te`chers.
:52:12. > :52:13.He says that teachers should be sitting A`levels alongside
:52:14. > :52:16.In a moment, we will be hearing from a teacher's union
:52:17. > :52:19.on how they feel about the hdea but first Des Coleman's been back to
:52:20. > :52:23.school to hear from pupils who will be taking their A`levels next year.
:52:24. > :52:26.Well, I have come to this school in Hucknall, to ask a group
:52:27. > :52:29.Do you think teachers should set their A`level exams
:52:30. > :52:33.Like, they have already got their qualifications,
:52:34. > :52:39.I don't think you need them to take their A`level to prove that
:52:40. > :52:43.I think that your results speak for how they teach.
:52:44. > :52:46.I think it just adds added pressure, so when you are in your exal,
:52:47. > :52:49.you don't want to turn around, and your teacher is sitting there.
:52:50. > :52:51.You want to actually be call and ready for the exam,
:52:52. > :52:55.so I don't think it is necessary that they do it with you.
:52:56. > :52:57.Yes and no, really, because it would show their capability
:52:58. > :53:00.of teaching the subject, but now because, like Jodie said, you are in
:53:01. > :53:03.your exam, and seeing your teacher there could just add pressure.
:53:04. > :53:05.It is like, they have already got their
:53:06. > :53:09.I think all the teachers I have had no thoroughly about their stbject,
:53:10. > :53:12.but whether they are a born teacher and whether they are good
:53:13. > :53:14.at portraying that to their pupils is sometimes a different matter
:53:15. > :53:19.The problem is their teaching capabilities over because they are
:53:20. > :53:21.obviously going to be brillhant in their subject, but that doesn't
:53:22. > :53:24.necessarily mean they are going to be brilliant at teaching it.
:53:25. > :53:27.Thanks very much to the sixth formers At the National in Hucknall.
:53:28. > :53:29.Well, Ian Lever from the National Union of Teachers
:53:30. > :53:47.Well, I was going to say, I am actually reassured and
:53:48. > :53:50.not entirely surprised that the students there were saying that it
:53:51. > :53:59.They were more afraid of them actually being in the same
:54:00. > :54:02.room while they were taking their exam Partly that, but also
:54:03. > :54:05.one of the students there also said about the fact that there is more to
:54:06. > :54:10.You can see how this governlent at the moment seem to be absolutely
:54:11. > :54:13.obsessed with the fact that as long as somebody is a graduate they are
:54:14. > :54:34.quite capable of being in the classroom, they are even happy to
:54:35. > :54:37.in the classrooms in academhes and free schools, and their latest
:54:38. > :54:41.idea seems to be that anybody who happens to have a degree was retired
:54:42. > :54:46.Well, actually, the thrust of my debate about the A`levels was to
:54:47. > :54:50.reschedule the timing of thd exams so that people could get thd results
:54:51. > :54:56.and apply to university with known grades rather than a prediction
:54:57. > :55:04.We know that the predictions are four out of five are incorrdct,
:55:05. > :55:07.three are overpredicted out of five, and one is under predhcted.
:55:08. > :55:09.I thought that was the way to get the meritocr`cy,
:55:10. > :55:12.and get the best people to go to the best universities.
:55:13. > :55:14.But you were talking about teachers sitting exams?
:55:15. > :55:15.Or was that a flippant, throwaway remark?
:55:16. > :55:18.That actually came from a constituent of mine who is ` sixth
:55:19. > :55:21.former at the moment who actually e`mailed me on that day when we were
:55:22. > :55:25.debating about A level policy, and he said he thought that somd of the
:55:26. > :55:27.teachers on different coursds on A`levels were better than others.
:55:28. > :55:31.He thought that a good test of it for rigour would be to let the
:55:32. > :55:38.I agree with the pupils from the National in Hucknall.
:55:39. > :55:42.I mean, come on, you might as well have an MP in
:55:43. > :55:45.It means nothing, because times have moved on
:55:46. > :55:50.They are harder now, teachers are better, and a good teacher hsn't
:55:51. > :55:52.just with the knowledge which they certainly need, ht is the
:55:53. > :55:56.That is what makes a brilliant teacher, that inspires,
:55:57. > :55:59.What about an idea of taking exams earlier?
:56:00. > :56:02.Well, before I come to that, a lot of other students there were
:56:03. > :56:04.saying about the fact that they recognise the scrutiny that teachers
:56:05. > :56:07.are under at the moment, with classroom observations and
:56:08. > :56:10.It is a shame that that is not recognised
:56:11. > :56:15.Do they see this as more meddling, really?
:56:16. > :56:19.They ought to recognise that morale is at rock bottom at the molent
:56:20. > :56:21.A recent report showed that morale amongst teachers in this
:56:22. > :56:25.You are going to have a strike again, aren't you?
:56:26. > :56:27.Yes, and teachers don't strhke for nothing.
:56:28. > :56:30.They don't strike unless thdy get to the stage were morale is th`t bad.
:56:31. > :56:32.It is a shame that that isn't being recognised.
:56:33. > :56:35.The issue of, as John was s`ying, about it being more than just simply
:56:36. > :56:38.having knowledge and being `ble to impart that knowledge, recently
:56:39. > :56:41.There are huge changes coming in to the A`levels...
:56:42. > :56:43.The NUT requested an additional training day to
:56:44. > :56:47.Instead of having to sit ex`ms, that would have been far more
:56:48. > :56:49.useful, but that has been knocked back by Michael Gove.
:56:50. > :56:52.So you are saying you have got enough on your plate,
:56:53. > :56:54.without people coming in and suggesting the sort of things?
:56:55. > :56:57.Teachers are quite happy to engage in CPD, but the career spechfic ..
:56:58. > :57:00.Continuing professional development...
:57:01. > :57:08.teachers are very happy to dngage in that, but a lot
:57:09. > :57:10.of the career specific profdssional development has now disappe`red
:57:11. > :57:13.What he is also saying is they have clearly had enough,
:57:14. > :57:16.they have got to meet all of these targets, they are stressed,
:57:17. > :57:19.they are overworked, they fdel there is underpaid, they are worrhed
:57:20. > :57:23.But how can a teacher in part the knowledge
:57:24. > :57:26.I think if you are teaching A`levels,
:57:27. > :57:30.A`levels are very important exams, they are going to ship the rest
:57:31. > :57:33.of the student's life, and they only get one chance at an educathon.
:57:34. > :57:36.I would suspect that students should be able to expect that the teacher
:57:37. > :57:39.taking them through the course of an A`level course should be able
:57:40. > :57:43.How prepared are you to take this further?
:57:44. > :57:45.How far do you want to take this idea?
:57:46. > :57:49.At the end of the day, we need to have...
:57:50. > :57:51.Have you spoken to Michael Gove about it?
:57:52. > :58:09.I am very keen to change A`levels so we can actually have a true merit
:58:10. > :58:11.` meritocracy and get peopld going to the right universities, `nd I
:58:12. > :58:15.think the way we are going to do that, I am sorry about the
:58:16. > :58:18.disruption to teachers, but I think the prize is worth it to
:58:19. > :58:20.have a genuine meritocracy, because I think the current system
:58:21. > :58:23.really does discriminate ag`inst people who go to state schools.
:58:24. > :58:25.I think they're grades are tnder predicted, and I think that
:58:26. > :58:29.if they do achieve better than that, they are not going to go to
:58:30. > :58:32.Would it make a difference, taking exams early?
:58:33. > :58:36.I think that Michael Gove otght to be taking a few A`levels.
:58:37. > :58:39.Question him, where is the North of England.
:58:40. > :58:43.Let's just ask you a couple of questions before you leave me.
:58:44. > :58:47.Consider, John, the extent to which the which the influence
:58:48. > :58:49.of individual grassroots melbers within the Labour Party has
:58:50. > :58:58.And the answer to that is that it hasn't diminished.
:58:59. > :59:00.Not ever since I successfully proposed giving members the vote.
:59:01. > :59:06.And now the vote to elect individual party leaders.
:59:07. > :59:09.I would say, get involved in the Labour Party, go and have a say
:59:10. > :59:13.Andrew, what extent does the contemporary Conservative Party
:59:14. > :59:15.promote traditional conserv`tive values, 30 marks for this.
:59:16. > :59:19.Probably for me and some of my colleagues not quite dnough.
:59:20. > :59:22.I think the confusion is th`t we actually do not have a Consdrvative
:59:23. > :59:27.government we have a coalithon government and people shouldn't
:59:28. > :59:33.The one thing I was going to say if I may do is that teachers are
:59:34. > :59:36.highly qualified and well skilled professionals and if you have got
:59:37. > :59:56.an amateur in charge, look `t what happens with Michael Gove in charge.
:59:57. > :00:02.Is tanker 60 seconds. Busindsses any East Midlands are being urgdd to bid
:00:03. > :00:05.for their share of ?200 million for regeneration. The next round of the
:00:06. > :00:11.regional growth ground is open for applications. Previous rounds have
:00:12. > :00:14.given the area the least amount of grass in the country. Firefhghters
:00:15. > :00:18.say they can't rule out indtstrial action over plans to cut a puarter
:00:19. > :00:23.of the workforce. Managers say the service need to sate ?7.5 mhllion.
:00:24. > :00:27.Unions say it would put the lives of viral fighters and the publhc at
:00:28. > :00:30.risk. Passions run high 18 leeting of borough councillors this week.
:00:31. > :00:36.Our reporter with interviewhng the council leader when Labour `nd
:00:37. > :00:59.Conservative councillors behind him almost came to blows. Tempers
:01:00. > :01:03.quickly calmed and no one w`s hurt. Well, it didn't come to blows, but
:01:04. > :01:10.emotions were clearly running rather high, weren't they? Put thel in the
:01:11. > :01:12.stock in the Market Square. That is certainly one solution. That is the
:01:13. > :01:16.Sunday Politics in the been problems elsewhere in Europe,
:01:17. > :01:17.but I take your point. Thanks to both of you today. Back to you,
:01:18. > :01:23.Andrew. Now, there have been some
:01:24. > :01:24.less-than-helpful remarks about the way the Labour party makes
:01:25. > :01:27.policy, and they've come from the man who is heading Labour's
:01:28. > :01:32.Policy Review, Jon Cruddas. In a speech to party activists he
:01:33. > :01:36.was recorded saying that, "instrumentalised, cynical nuggets
:01:37. > :01:38.of policy to chime with our focus groups and our press strategies and
:01:39. > :01:42.our desire for a topline in terms of the 24 hour media cycle,
:01:43. > :01:44.dominate and crowd out any He added that Labour's election
:01:45. > :01:55.strategy was being hampered by a The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls
:01:56. > :02:16.was asked about what Mr Cruddas had I talked to him a couple of days
:02:17. > :02:21.ago, and he's not frustrated, he is excited about his policy agenda He
:02:22. > :02:27.is frustrated that one report of 250 pages gets reduced down. So it's our
:02:28. > :02:32.fault? That is the way we live in the world in which we live, but we
:02:33. > :02:36.have big ideas about devolution long term infrastructure spending
:02:37. > :02:39.and new manufacturing policy, new investment in skills, big changes
:02:40. > :02:48.which, let's be honest, I'm really on George Osborne's agenda. How
:02:49. > :02:52.serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so let's call it an unforced error You
:02:53. > :02:56.go to the party speeches, and you don't know who is in the audience.
:02:57. > :02:59.There is no need for something as serious as this to happen. It's
:03:00. > :03:03.hugely serious because it speaks about something people have felt for
:03:04. > :03:07.a long time, that they have doled out little nuggets of policy but no
:03:08. > :03:11.overarching story. There was a quite saying the Ed Miliband has given as
:03:12. > :03:15.a shopping list, not a narrative. When people in the party say things
:03:16. > :03:19.that are true, it's very difficult for people to explain it away. Not
:03:20. > :03:22.sure Mr Miliband can win here. He was recently criticised for not
:03:23. > :03:27.having policies. Now he's being criticised for having too many. I
:03:28. > :03:30.think this line of attack is particularly wounding because he
:03:31. > :03:36.prides himself on being a politician of ideas. That is his unique selling
:03:37. > :03:40.point, and the weight that David Cameron's prime ministerial nature
:03:41. > :03:44.is his selling point. So it is wounding. If I was the Labour Party,
:03:45. > :03:50.before announcing any policy, I would ask can help fix us on the
:03:51. > :03:55.economy? It might be radicalised immolating on its own terms, but
:03:56. > :03:59.it's politically useless. -- radical and innovative on its own terms I
:04:00. > :04:03.don't think any member of the public does not think they are not radical
:04:04. > :04:06.enough or creative enough. If anything, it's the opposite. They
:04:07. > :04:10.are a bit nervous about what a Labour government could do and
:04:11. > :04:14.nervous about the economic reputation. Reassurance, caution,
:04:15. > :04:18.maybe a bit of timidity might be the notions that inform their policies
:04:19. > :04:24.or should inform their policies in night -- my view, not the opposite.
:04:25. > :04:27.I am worried for Jon Cruddas, because anyone who questions the
:04:28. > :04:31.Labour Party are part of the nexus of the banking industry who are
:04:32. > :04:34.terrified of a Labour victory. It's interesting that this goes to the
:04:35. > :04:38.heart of the debate in the Labour Party, at the highest levels, do
:04:39. > :04:42.they put a big offer to the British people, or a little off, John
:04:43. > :04:49.Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander offer? Ed Miliband says that his
:04:50. > :04:52.ideas about freezing energy prices and rent controls are a big offer,
:04:53. > :04:57.but his policy chief clearly has real concerns that they don't go far
:04:58. > :05:01.enough. How important a figure is John Cruddas in the project? He is
:05:02. > :05:06.hell of the -- head of the policy review and has a huge amount of
:05:07. > :05:11.power, and so him slagging off the policy review is a bad moment. He is
:05:12. > :05:15.trusted in that inner circle and the problem for Ed Miliband from the odd
:05:16. > :05:19.is that he has people with strong opinions, Maurice clasping is
:05:20. > :05:24.another, big thinkers, but they maybe don't have a precaution that a
:05:25. > :05:29.professional politician might have in terms of giving bland answers.
:05:30. > :05:31.So, David Cameron had to apologise after his former director
:05:32. > :05:33.of communications was convicted of phone hacking.
:05:34. > :05:37.David Cameron's other former friend, Rebekah Brooks, had a better day.
:05:38. > :05:42.At the same trial, she was cleared of all the charges against her.
:05:43. > :05:49.I take full responsibility for employing Andy Coulson. I did some
:05:50. > :05:52.on the basis of undertakings I was given by him about phone hacking and
:05:53. > :05:56.those turned out not to be the case. I always said that if they turned
:05:57. > :06:01.out to be wrong, I would make a full and frank apology, and I do that
:06:02. > :06:06.today. I am extremely sorry that I employed him. It was the wrong
:06:07. > :06:10.decision. I'm clear about that. When I was arrested it was in the middle
:06:11. > :06:14.of a maelstrom of controversy, politics and of comment. Some of
:06:15. > :06:24.that was there, but much of it was not, so I'm grateful to the jury for
:06:25. > :06:28.coming to that decision. Not been a great week for David Cameron. Andy
:06:29. > :06:31.Coulson found guilty, and another person who had worked in Downing
:06:32. > :06:37.Street is also charged on an unrelated issue. And he was 26- on
:06:38. > :06:40.the wrong end in Brussels, and there is a poll this morning which no one
:06:41. > :06:44.seems to be talking about which puts Labour nine points ahead. Before all
:06:45. > :06:49.that there was Dominic Cummings criticising the Downing Street
:06:50. > :06:53.operation is being shambolic. Is Mr Cameron's judgement becoming an
:06:54. > :06:56.issue? Yes, what often happens when one leader is under pressure for
:06:57. > :07:01.long enough, as Ed Miliband has been the six months, we get bored. We
:07:02. > :07:04.then switch the Gatling gun to the other guy. So David Cameron going
:07:05. > :07:07.into the Conference season might be the man under pressure. The whole
:07:08. > :07:10.Andy Coulson saga has raised questions about his judgement and
:07:11. > :07:14.those around him, but any political damage she was going to sustain over
:07:15. > :07:17.Andy Coulson and phone hacking was sustained years ago -- he was
:07:18. > :07:21.going. It was Brother beyond the date the News of the World was
:07:22. > :07:25.closed down three summers ago - it was probably on the date. As the
:07:26. > :07:32.hacking trial cut through to the general public? Or is it just as
:07:33. > :07:35.media and political obsessives? I am sure it has cut through in some way
:07:36. > :07:40.but it didn't necessarily happen in recent days, more likely in recent
:07:41. > :07:44.years. It was some time ago that Andy Coulson resigned in high
:07:45. > :07:48.profile circumstances. It has had a slow burning effect over a few
:07:49. > :07:53.years, and the Prime Minister fears the Big Bang. But there is one theme
:07:54. > :07:57.and words that unites this week with Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that
:07:58. > :08:00.is that the Prime Minister can be lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical
:08:01. > :08:04.in not asking big question is when there was a lot in the public domain
:08:05. > :08:08.about what had happened that the News of the World. And he was
:08:09. > :08:10.lackadaisical with Juncker. He made a calculation that Angela Merkel
:08:11. > :08:14.would support him and it turned out she couldn't. Maybe he needs to
:08:15. > :08:18.change. He was late in understanding what was happening in Germany when
:08:19. > :08:25.both the Christian Democrats, her party, wanted Juncker, and when the
:08:26. > :08:30.actual Murdoch press of Germany said that they wanted him as well. He
:08:31. > :08:34.never saw that. He only looks at one person in Germany, Angela Merkel,
:08:35. > :08:39.and it is a grand coalition, and the SDP felt strongly about it. He is,
:08:40. > :08:42.in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He is, in a sense, an
:08:43. > :08:47.essay crisis Prime Minister. He s very good in an essay, and the SA
:08:48. > :08:53.gets a double first the essay. Is Ed Miliband right to be angry? He has
:08:54. > :08:57.John Cruddas attacking him, and that is the news leading in the Sunday
:08:58. > :09:00.Times, and has not been a good week the Prime Minister and in which Mr
:09:01. > :09:04.Miliband has a bigger lead in the polls than he has had some time so
:09:05. > :09:08.he must be wondering why they are having a go at him. He made a
:09:09. > :09:10.tactical error in Prime Minister's Questions by asking all the
:09:11. > :09:15.questions about Andy Coulson. The one at the end about what Gus
:09:16. > :09:20.O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in the extreme. Politicians can be out
:09:21. > :09:23.of touch on all sides of the house. The problem is, and there is a great
:09:24. > :09:28.quote by William Hague, is that the Tory party has two modes, panic and
:09:29. > :09:31.complacency. At the moment they are complacent. They think Ed Miliband
:09:32. > :09:34.will lose Labour election but I don't know if they have a positive
:09:35. > :09:37.plan about how to win it. -- lose Labour the election.
:09:38. > :09:39.Now, we knew Prince Charles had trouble keeping his views
:09:40. > :09:41.about the environment and the countryside to himself,
:09:42. > :09:44.but that's not the only thing he's passionate about according to
:09:45. > :09:46.a radio four documentary to be broadcast this lunchtime.
:09:47. > :09:51.Here's former Education Secretary, David Blunkett on how the Prince
:09:52. > :09:54.had once attempted to influence his policy on schools.
:09:55. > :10:00.I would explain that our policy was not to expand grammar schools, and
:10:01. > :10:07.he didn't like that. He was very keen that we should go back to a
:10:08. > :10:10.different era where youngsters had what he would've seen as the
:10:11. > :10:12.opportunity to escape from their background, where as I wanted to
:10:13. > :10:14.change their background. And you can hear that documentary -
:10:15. > :10:24.it's called The Royal Activist Does it matter that Prince Charles
:10:25. > :10:27.is getting involved in this kind of policy, released behind closed doors
:10:28. > :10:33.question mark on the issue of grammar schools is not clear anybody
:10:34. > :10:36.listened to him. I think it is a principal problem. I've spoken to
:10:37. > :10:39.form a government members, and judging by what they say, if
:10:40. > :10:43.anything we underestimate how much contacting makes with ministers And
:10:44. > :10:48.how many representations he makes on the issue that interest him. There
:10:49. > :10:52.has been an attempt to keep it hidden. It's almost a theological
:10:53. > :10:56.question about whether the future monarch should be involved in the
:10:57. > :11:00.public realm. If he wants to influence policy, shouldn't we know
:11:01. > :11:05.what policy he's trying to influence and what position he is taking?
:11:06. > :11:11.Sewer speech is better than private one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so
:11:12. > :11:14.a speech. Prince Charles's views are interesting. He's not a straight
:11:15. > :11:19.down the light reactionary. He makes a left-wing case for rammer schools.
:11:20. > :11:23.There is an interview with him in the Financial Times in which his
:11:24. > :11:27.argument in favour for architectural development takes into account
:11:28. > :11:30.affordable housing in the wake which no one would have suspected. He has
:11:31. > :11:34.interesting views, but I'm not convinced on the point of principle
:11:35. > :11:38.whether someone is dashing his position should be speaking. Your
:11:39. > :11:46.former employer 's famously described him as the SDP king. You
:11:47. > :11:52.slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66 and still an apprentice. He's in a
:11:53. > :11:56.difficult position. We know what the powers of the monarch are. They are
:11:57. > :12:00.to advise in courage and warned the Prime Minister of the day. These in
:12:01. > :12:03.the difficult position where the problem for him is that there is a
:12:04. > :12:07.line that isn't really defined, but you slightly feel he just gets a bit
:12:08. > :12:12.too close to it and possibly crosses that line with the lobbying that
:12:13. > :12:17.goes on. I think the worrying thing is that at some point he will become
:12:18. > :12:22.King and will he know that he has got to work within that framework?
:12:23. > :12:25.He is somebody that cannot win either. If he doesn't take an
:12:26. > :12:29.interest in public policy, he will be thought to be a bit of a waster,
:12:30. > :12:33.going round opening town halls, and when he does have an interest we
:12:34. > :12:37.think, hey, you are in the monarchy, stay out. There's an interesting
:12:38. > :12:43.parallel with first ladies who are encouraged to find a controversial
:12:44. > :12:47.charitable project. Michelle Obama has bought childhood obesity, and
:12:48. > :12:51.that is the standard thing. Everybody knows that that is a bad
:12:52. > :12:55.thing, but you are not offering solutions that are party political.
:12:56. > :12:58.I feel there must be a middle way with what he should be able to do
:12:59. > :13:02.about finding big causes he can complain about without getting stuck
:13:03. > :13:06.into lobbying ministers. Which can become a party political issue. He
:13:07. > :13:08.has had some influence on architecture, because the buildings
:13:09. > :13:11.we are putting up to date are better than the ones we used to put up
:13:12. > :13:15.The Daily Politics is on BBC 2 at 11:00am
:13:16. > :13:20.We'll be back here at the same time next week.
:13:21. > :13:24.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.