:00:36. > :00:38.Morning folks and welcome to The Sunday Politics,
:00:39. > :00:45.live from the Conservative Conference in Birmingham.
:00:46. > :00:46.There will be one less Conservative MP here after Mark Reckless defected
:00:47. > :00:52.He joins us live from his constituency, where he has
:00:53. > :00:59.It has not been the best of starts for the Prime Minister, as he
:01:00. > :01:02.arrives in Birmingham for the last Tory conference before the election.
:01:03. > :01:05.On top of the Reckless defection, a junior Tory minister has resigned
:01:06. > :01:13.RAF jets have carried out their first mission over Iraq
:01:14. > :01:22.Will UKIP be stealing any of our East Midlands MPs?
:01:23. > :01:25.Plus is it time we joined up with the West Midlands to demand
:01:26. > :01:32.In London, how the richest 1% are pulling further away, and why those
:01:33. > :01:37.priced out are choosing to move away.
:01:38. > :01:41.And joining me, three of the country's most loyal journalists,
:01:42. > :01:44.who sadly have yet to resign or defect to our inferior rivals.
:01:45. > :01:51.Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.
:01:52. > :01:54.And, of course, they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:55. > :01:58.And you too can get involved by using the hashtag #BBCSP.
:01:59. > :02:00.At the current rate of Tory resignations,
:02:01. > :02:04.Mr Cameron could be speaking to an empty hall when he makes his keynote
:02:05. > :02:07.address to the Tory conference here in Birmingham tomorrow.
:02:08. > :02:11.It's been a classic car crash of a start to the conference, with a UKIP
:02:12. > :02:15.defection, a minister shamed into resignation by a sex scandal and
:02:16. > :02:21.Ed Miliband's memory lapses now look like a little local difficulty.
:02:22. > :02:28.Here's what the Prime Minister had to say
:02:29. > :02:40.These things are frustrating and frankly counter-productive and
:02:41. > :02:44.rather senseless. If you want to have a European referendum, if you
:02:45. > :02:47.want to get the deficit down, if you want to build a stronger Britain
:02:48. > :02:51.that we can be proud of, there is only one option, which is to have a
:02:52. > :02:53.Conservative government after the next election.
:02:54. > :03:02.And Mark Reckless joins me now from Rochester.
:03:03. > :03:09.Welcome to the programme. Why did you lie to all your Conservative
:03:10. > :03:12.colleagues and mislead those who elected you? Well, I am keeping
:03:13. > :03:16.faith with my constituents and keeping my promises to them. You
:03:17. > :03:20.heard the Prime Minister saying that the Conservative led government was
:03:21. > :03:24.dealing with the deficit and cutting immigration. The reality is, we have
:03:25. > :03:28.increased the national debt by more in five years than even Labour
:03:29. > :03:33.managed in 13, and immigration is back up to the levels we saw under
:03:34. > :03:37.Labour. I believe in the promises I made in 2010, and I want to keep my
:03:38. > :03:40.words to my electorate, not least to deal with the deficit, cut
:03:41. > :03:45.immigration, reform the political system, to localise powers back to
:03:46. > :03:48.the community, particularly over house-building. The government has
:03:49. > :03:53.broken its word on all those things are. I want to keep my word to my
:03:54. > :03:59.voters here, and that is why I have done what I have done, by moving to
:04:00. > :04:03.UKIP. You have not kept your words to your Conservative constituency
:04:04. > :04:07.chairman. You assured him 48 hours ago that you would not defect, and
:04:08. > :04:12.you left his voice mail on the Conservative Party chairman's office
:04:13. > :04:17.telephone, missing to come to Birmingham to campaign for the
:04:18. > :04:38.Tories. This is your voice mail .. I have just picked up your e-mail ..
:04:39. > :04:43.So, Friday night, telling Grant Shapps you are coming to Birmingham
:04:44. > :04:50.to campaign for the Tories. The next day, you are joining UKIP. Why did
:04:51. > :04:55.you are a? I sounded a bit more hesitant on that call than I usually
:04:56. > :04:58.do, and I am not sure if that was the full conversation. But you
:04:59. > :05:01.cannot discuss these things in advance, you have to make a
:05:02. > :05:05.decision. I have decided the future of this country is better served by
:05:06. > :05:11.UKIP then it is by the Conservative Party under David Cameron. I made a
:05:12. > :05:20.lot of promises to my constituents, and I want to keep those promises.
:05:21. > :05:26.That is why I am moving to UKIP so I can deliver the change this
:05:27. > :05:32.country really needs. In May of this year, you said that Nigel Farage,
:05:33. > :05:37.quote, poses the most serious threat to a Tory victory at the election.
:05:38. > :05:43.So, you agree, voting UKIP means a Labour government? I think voting
:05:44. > :05:46.UKIP means getting UKIP. While in the past a disproportionate number
:05:47. > :05:50.of UKIP people were ex-Conservatives, now, they are
:05:51. > :05:53.winning a lot more people, from all parties. People are so disillusioned
:05:54. > :05:57.with the political class in Westminster, that they have not
:05:58. > :06:01.voted often for a generation. Those are the people Nigel Farage is
:06:02. > :06:06.inspiring, and frankly, he has also inspired me. What he has done in the
:06:07. > :06:11.last 20 years, building his party, getting people from all walks of
:06:12. > :06:14.life, sending up for ordinary people, I think deserves support.
:06:15. > :06:21.That is a key reason why I am moving. UKIP are now the agents of
:06:22. > :06:26.change. You said it poses them a serious threat to a Tory victory? My
:06:27. > :06:30.ambition is not a Tory victory. We made all of these promises in 2 10
:06:31. > :06:34.as Conservatives, and they have been broken. We now hear from David
:06:35. > :06:38.Cameron about English votes for English laws, supported by Nick
:06:39. > :06:42.Clegg as well, but that is what we said in our manifesto in 2010, and
:06:43. > :06:46.we have done absolutely nothing about it. It is not credible now to
:06:47. > :06:51.pretend that you are going to do those things. They have omitted to
:06:52. > :06:58.give every Scot ?1600 per year in definitely. If you want to stand up
:06:59. > :07:07.for the English taxpayer, and really tackle the debt, then UKIP are the
:07:08. > :07:11.party who will do that. But there is nothing principled about this, this
:07:12. > :07:17.is just an attempt to save your skin. You said UKIP stopped you
:07:18. > :07:20.winning in 2005 - UKIP did not stand in 2010, and you won. You are
:07:21. > :07:26.frightened that UKIP would beat you in the next election, this is to
:07:27. > :07:30.save your skin to me you think I am doing this because I am frightened,
:07:31. > :07:34.you think this is the easy option, to abandon my position in
:07:35. > :07:44.Parliament, but my principles on the line? On the contrary, you look at
:07:45. > :07:48.MPs who have moved party before almost none of them have given their
:07:49. > :07:52.voters to chance to have a say on what they have done. I am asking
:07:53. > :07:56.permission from my voters, and I am moving to UKIP because I believe
:07:57. > :08:00.many of the people in my constituency have been let down by a
:08:01. > :08:03.Conservative led government, and that what UKIP is saying appeals to
:08:04. > :08:11.decent, hard-working people, who want to see real change in our
:08:12. > :08:14.country. If they do not agree, then they can vote in a by-election and
:08:15. > :08:22.have their say on who they want to be their MP. I am being open and
:08:23. > :08:26.honest, giving people a say. I am trying to do the right thing by my
:08:27. > :08:31.constituents, and whatever the risk is to me personally, I think it is
:08:32. > :08:35.the right thing to do. It is what MPs should be in politics to try and
:08:36. > :08:42.do for the people they represent. Your defection, coming after Douglas
:08:43. > :08:44.Carswell's, confirms the claim that UKIP is largely a depository for
:08:45. > :08:51.disaffected right-wing Tories like yourself, isn't it? On the contrary,
:08:52. > :08:54.the number of people I met in Doncaster yesterday was
:08:55. > :08:59.extraordinary. When I first went to Conservative conferences 20 years
:09:00. > :09:02.ago, there was some enthusiasm for politics, I remember Norman Tebbit
:09:03. > :09:06.speaking against Maastricht, people fought they could change things
:09:07. > :09:11.there was real politics. But I do not think you will see that at
:09:12. > :09:14.Birmingham this week, it is PR people, lobbyists, corporate, few
:09:15. > :09:18.ordinary members of. At Ancaster, people had saved up for months just
:09:19. > :09:23.to get the rail ticket to Doncaster. People who believe in UKIP, who
:09:24. > :09:30.believe in Nigel Farage, who believe in the team, as agents of change,
:09:31. > :09:37.who can actually deal with a political class at Westminster which
:09:38. > :09:40.has let able down. We want proper reform to the political system,
:09:41. > :09:47.which David Cameron promises but does not deliver. Final question -
:09:48. > :09:50.after the next election, the Prime Minister is going to be either David
:09:51. > :09:57.Cameron or Ed Miliband, that is the choice, one or the other - who would
:09:58. > :10:00.you prefer? Well, what we would prefer is to get the most UKIP
:10:01. > :10:07.policies implemented. We want a first rate we want to deal with
:10:08. > :10:13.immigration. I asked about who you wanted to be Prime Minister. We will
:10:14. > :10:18.look at the circumstances. We need as many UKIP MPs as possible, to
:10:19. > :10:31.restore trust in politics. If people vote UKIP, they will get UKIP. How
:10:32. > :10:36.serious is this? I think it is very serious. It is the old Tory disease,
:10:37. > :10:39.destroyed John Major, and it has been bubbling away again. It is
:10:40. > :10:44.beginning to feel like the worst days of Labour in the early nineteen
:10:45. > :10:50.eighties. It matters, because people care passionately. It is nothing
:10:51. > :10:54.like Labour in the early 1980s, it is bad, but it is nothing like that.
:10:55. > :10:59.There are these very strong strands. People like David Davis
:11:00. > :11:01.writing a large piece in the Daily Mail attacking the leader on the
:11:02. > :11:05.first day of the conference. That is the kind of thing that Labour used
:11:06. > :11:11.to do. That is what David Davis does all the time! But this is authentic
:11:12. > :11:16.in the sense that there is a real, genuine dispute about Europe. Some
:11:17. > :11:20.of us were not around in the 19 0s, but I imagine it is pretty bad.
:11:21. > :11:23.There is the short-term problem of the by-election they might lose the
:11:24. > :11:26.media problem of the general election which they cannot win if
:11:27. > :11:30.UKIP remain anywhere near their current level of support. But in
:11:31. > :11:34.many ways the longer term question is the most pressing, which is, does
:11:35. > :11:38.it make sense for the Conservative Party to remain one party, or would
:11:39. > :11:43.it not be better for the hard-core of 20-30 intransigent Eurosceptics
:11:44. > :11:49.to essentially join UKIP or form their own party? At least the
:11:50. > :11:53.Conservatives would become more internally manageable. And probably
:11:54. > :12:00.lose the next election. Probably, yes. That is what you are advising
:12:01. > :12:05.them? If the reward is to have a coherent party in 15 years' time. It
:12:06. > :12:10.is just as well you are a columnist, not a party strategist. I
:12:11. > :12:15.was an anorak in the 1980s, who watched the Labour conference on the
:12:16. > :12:19.TV. Were you wearing your anorak? Of course I was, that is how sad I am.
:12:20. > :12:23.But once again the crisis from UKIP has forced the Prime Minister to
:12:24. > :12:29.step in an even more Eurosceptic direction. Said on television what
:12:30. > :12:34.he was trying not to say, which is that if he does not get his way in
:12:35. > :12:37.the European negotiations, he will recommend to the British people that
:12:38. > :12:41.we should go. He began by saying, as I have always said, and when they
:12:42. > :12:46.say that, you know they are saying something new. He basically said,
:12:47. > :12:51.Britain should not stay if it is not in Britain's interests. I think this
:12:52. > :12:58.is big stakes for both the Tories and four UKIP. The Tories are able
:12:59. > :13:02.to write off Clacton. Rochester is number 271 on the UKIP friendly
:13:03. > :13:07.list. If the Tories win it, big moment for them. If UKIP lose it,
:13:08. > :13:19.this strategy of various will be facing a bit of a setback.
:13:20. > :13:21.To what extent are Mark Reckless's views shared by Conservative
:13:22. > :13:26.The Sunday Politics commissioned an exclusive poll of Conservative
:13:27. > :13:31.Pollsters ComRes spoke to over ,000 councillors -
:13:32. > :13:34.that's almost an eighth of their council base - and Eleanor Garnier
:13:35. > :13:47.There is not a single party conference at the seaside this year,
:13:48. > :13:50.and Sunday Politics could not get through them all without a trip to
:13:51. > :13:54.the coast. So here we are on the shore in Sussex. There are plenty of
:13:55. > :14:00.Conservative councillors here, and Tory MPs as well, but one challenge
:14:01. > :14:06.they all face is UKIP, who have got their sights on coastal towns.
:14:07. > :14:09.Places like Worthing East and surer and, with high numbers of
:14:10. > :14:14.pensioners, providing rich pickings for UKIP. In West Sussex, the Tories
:14:15. > :14:21.run the county council, but UKIP are the official opposition, with ten
:14:22. > :14:25.councillors. We cannot lose any more ground to UKIP. If we lose any more
:14:26. > :14:30.ground, if you look at the way it has swung from us to them, it is
:14:31. > :14:33.getting near to being the middle point, where we might start losing
:14:34. > :14:43.seats which we have always regarded as safe seats. So, it has got to be
:14:44. > :14:45.stemmed, it cannot go any further. Our exclusive survey looked at the
:14:46. > :14:51.policy areas where the Conservatives are vulnerable to UKIP. If an EU
:14:52. > :14:57.Referendum Bill is called tomorrow, 45% say they would vote to leave,
:14:58. > :15:09.39% would stay in. Asked about immigration...
:15:10. > :15:17.It was those issues, Europe and immigration, that Mark Reckless said
:15:18. > :15:22.were the head of his decision. I promised to cut immigration while
:15:23. > :15:27.treating people fairly and humanely. I cannot keep that promise as a
:15:28. > :15:32.Conservative, I can keep it as UKIP. When asked if Conservative
:15:33. > :15:36.councillors would like an electoral pact with UKIP in the run-up to the
:15:37. > :15:43.general election, one third said they support the idea. 63% are
:15:44. > :15:48.opposed and 7% don't know. Conservative councillors who left
:15:49. > :15:55.the party to join UKIP say it wasn't easy. I left because basically the
:15:56. > :16:00.Conservatives left me. I saw it as a difficult decision to change, but
:16:01. > :16:09.what I was seeing with UKIP was freed. Me being able to speak for my
:16:10. > :16:14.residents. Back to our survey and on climate change 49% said it was
:16:15. > :16:21.happening, but that humans are not to blame. Our survey showed that 60%
:16:22. > :16:27.think David Cameron was wrong to pursue legalising gay marriage, with
:16:28. > :16:32.31% saying it was the right thing to do and 9% not sure. In Worthing
:16:33. > :16:38.councillors said gay marriage was divisive. That has really been an
:16:39. > :16:46.issue here, it might have damaged the party slightly, and I think in a
:16:47. > :16:50.way by setting a rule like that it is a very religious thing and it is
:16:51. > :16:56.almost trying to play God to make that decision. But some of the
:16:57. > :17:02.party's toughest decisions have been over the economy. 56% in our survey
:17:03. > :17:07.thought the spending cuts the Government has so far announced have
:17:08. > :17:14.not gone far enough. 6% were not sure. They are prepared for
:17:15. > :17:18.difficult decisions, but local activists say the party's voice must
:17:19. > :17:24.be clearer. I think the message has to be more forceful, it has to be
:17:25. > :17:30.specially targeted to the ex-Conservative voters who now vote
:17:31. > :17:33.UKIP, especially in this area, the vast majority of UKIP people are
:17:34. > :17:38.disillusioned Conservatives. The message has to be loud and strong,
:17:39. > :17:42.come back and we are the party to give you what you want. With just
:17:43. > :17:47.eight months until the general election, the pressure is on and
:17:48. > :17:54.local Conservatives are searching for clues to help their party stem
:17:55. > :18:00.the flow of defections. Joining me now is William Hague, the former
:18:01. > :18:04.Foreign Secretary and the Leader of the House of Commons.
:18:05. > :18:08.Tories like Mark Reckless are defecting to UKIP because they don't
:18:09. > :18:13.trust the party leadership to deliver on Europe, do they? They
:18:14. > :18:18.believe people like you and David Cameron will campaign to stay in and
:18:19. > :18:24.they are right. They said before they defected that people should
:18:25. > :18:30.vote Conservative to get a referendum on Europe, and that is
:18:31. > :18:35.right of course. The only way to get a referendum is to do that and this
:18:36. > :18:39.is the point, the people should decide. However a future government
:18:40. > :18:44.decides it will campaign, it should be the people of the country who
:18:45. > :18:49.decide. Can you say to our viewers this morning that is not enough
:18:50. > :18:54.powers are repatriated back to Britain, you would want to come
:18:55. > :19:00.out, can you say that? Our objective is to get those powers and stay in.
:19:01. > :19:05.The answer to the question is I won't be deciding, David Cameron
:19:06. > :19:11.won't be deciding, you the voters will be deciding. But you have to
:19:12. > :19:16.give us your view. If you don't get enough powers back, would you vote
:19:17. > :19:22.to come out and recommended? Our objective is to get those powers and
:19:23. > :19:26.be able to stay in. You just get endless speculation years in
:19:27. > :19:31.advance. I will decide at the time how I will vote. Surely that is the
:19:32. > :19:37.rational position for everyone to take but I want a referendum to take
:19:38. > :19:41.place. I understand that. As you pointed out to Mark Reckless just
:19:42. > :19:46.now, unless there is a Conservative government, people won't have that
:19:47. > :19:54.choice. Under a Labour government they will not get a choice at all.
:19:55. > :19:58.Our survey of Tory councillors shows that almost 50% would vote to leave
:19:59. > :20:06.the EU in a referendum. I think it showed, wasn't it 45, and 39%, but
:20:07. > :20:12.again, I'm pretty sure they will decide at the time. They will want
:20:13. > :20:16.to see what a future government achieves in a renegotiation before
:20:17. > :20:20.they decide what to vote in a referendum. Unless David Cameron is
:20:21. > :20:28.Prime Minister and there is a Conservative government, there will
:20:29. > :20:33.not be a renegotiation. That is a point you have made four times. I
:20:34. > :20:36.think they have got it. Your Cabinet colleague says we should not be
:20:37. > :20:41.scared of quitting the EU, but you went native in the Foreign Office,
:20:42. > :20:46.didn't you? You used to be a Eurosceptic, you are now the Foreign
:20:47. > :20:51.Office line man. No, I don't think so! We brought back the first
:20:52. > :20:58.reduced European budget ever in history. Even Margaret Thatcher ..
:20:59. > :21:03.Leaving the EU scares you, doesn't it? Not much scares me after 26
:21:04. > :21:12.years in politics but we want to do the best thing for the country.
:21:13. > :21:16.Where we scared when we got us out of liability for Eurozone bailouts?
:21:17. > :21:19.We were not scared of anybody. People said we couldn't achieve
:21:20. > :21:27.things but we negotiated these things. We can do that with a wider
:21:28. > :21:34.negotiation in Europe. Mr Reckless says he cannot keep the Conservative
:21:35. > :21:47.promise to tackle immigration. You have failed to keep your promise to
:21:48. > :21:53.keep net immigration down. You promised to cut it below 100,00 ,
:21:54. > :22:11.you failed. It is over 200,000 people. We have cut it from 250 000
:22:12. > :22:19.in 2005, the last figures were 240,000. I think we can file that
:22:20. > :22:24.under F four failed. It includes students, we want them in the
:22:25. > :22:28.country. You knew that when you made the promise. But has it come down?
:22:29. > :22:35.Yes, it has. Have we stopped the promise. But has it come down?
:22:36. > :22:39.coming here because of our benefit system? Yes. None of that happened
:22:40. > :22:45.under Labour. If Mark Reckless had his way, it would be more likely we
:22:46. > :22:50.would have a Labour government. They have an open door policy on
:22:51. > :22:56.immigration. You are not just losing MPs to UKIP, you are losing voters.
:22:57. > :23:01.Polling by Michael Ashcroft shows that 20% of people who voted Tory in
:23:02. > :23:06.2010 have abandoned youth and three quarters of them are voting UKIP
:23:07. > :23:12.now. We will see in the general election. Politics is very fluid in
:23:13. > :23:17.this country and we shouldn't deny that in any way but UKIP thought
:23:18. > :23:21.they were going to win the by-election in Newark, we had a
:23:22. > :23:26.thumping Conservative victory, and I think opinion polls are snapshots of
:23:27. > :23:30.opinion now. They are not forecast of the general election and we will
:23:31. > :23:34.be doing everything we can to get our message across. Today we are
:23:35. > :23:39.announcing 3 million more apprenticeships in the next
:23:40. > :23:44.Parliament. I think this is what people will be voting on, rather
:23:45. > :23:52.than who has defected. Your activist base once parked with UKIP. Our
:23:53. > :23:58.survey shows a third of Tory councillors would like a formal pact
:23:59. > :24:08.with UKIP. Why not? It shows two thirds are against it. No, it shows
:24:09. > :24:14.one third want it. I read the figures, it showed 67% don't want
:24:15. > :24:18.it. We are not going to make a pact with other parties, and they don't
:24:19. > :24:25.work in the British electoral system even if they were desirable. You are
:24:26. > :24:30.sharing the Cabinet committee on English votes for English laws. Is
:24:31. > :24:35.further devolution for Scotland conditional on progress towards
:24:36. > :24:38.English devolution? No, the commitment to Scotland is
:24:39. > :24:42.unconditional. We will meet the commitments to Scotland but we
:24:43. > :24:46.believe, we the Conservatives believe, that in tandem with that we
:24:47. > :24:52.have to resolve these questions about fairness to the rest of the UK
:24:53. > :24:56.as well. That will depend on other parties or the general election
:24:57. > :25:02.result. Are you committed to the Gordon Brown timetable? Yes,
:25:03. > :25:07.absolutely. So you are committed to producing draft legislation by Burns
:25:08. > :25:12.night, that is at the end of January. Will you produce proposals
:25:13. > :25:17.for English votes on English laws by then? We will, but whether they are
:25:18. > :25:23.agreed across the parties will depend on the other parties. There
:25:24. > :25:31.was no sign that they were agreeable at the Labour conference. We will
:25:32. > :25:35.produce our ideas on the same timetable as the timetable for
:25:36. > :25:40.Scottish devolution. You will therefore bring forward proposals
:25:41. > :25:45.for English votes for English laws by the end of January? Yes. And will
:25:46. > :25:50.you attempt to get them on the statute book before the election?
:25:51. > :25:56.The commitment in Scotland is to legislate after the election. You
:25:57. > :26:00.will publish a bill beforehand? We will publish proposals beforehand. I
:26:01. > :26:05.don't exclude doing something before the election, but the Scottish
:26:06. > :26:09.timetable is to legislate for the further devolution after the general
:26:10. > :26:15.election, whoever wins the election. Have you given thought as to what
:26:16. > :26:21.English votes for English laws would mean? I have thought a lot of it
:26:22. > :26:26.over 15 years. I am not going to prejudge what the outcome will be,
:26:27. > :26:32.but it does mean in essence that when decisions are taken, decisions
:26:33. > :26:37.that only affect England or only England and Wales, then only the MPs
:26:38. > :26:40.from England and Wales should be making those decisions. You can
:26:41. > :26:45.achieve that in many different ways. Is that it for English
:26:46. > :26:51.devolution, is that what it amounts to? That is devolution to England if
:26:52. > :26:55.you like, but within England there is a lot of other devolution going
:26:56. > :27:00.on and we might well want to extend that further. We have given more
:27:01. > :27:05.freedom to local authorities, there is a lot of scope to do more of
:27:06. > :27:14.that, but that in itself is not the answer to the problem of what
:27:15. > :27:19.happens at Westminster. You haven't just given Scotland more devolution
:27:20. > :27:24.or planned to do it, you have also enshrined the Barnett formula and
:27:25. > :27:28.that seems to be in perpetuity. It is widely regarded as being unfair
:27:29. > :27:33.to Wales and many of the poorer English regions. Why do you
:27:34. > :27:40.perpetuate it? It will become less relevant overtime if more
:27:41. > :27:46.tax-raising powers... It goes all the way back to the 1970s, we made a
:27:47. > :27:51.commitment on that, we will keep our commitments to Scotland as more --
:27:52. > :27:58.but as more tax-raising powers devolved, the Barnett formula is
:27:59. > :28:03.less significant. If you transfer ?5 billion of tax-raising powers to
:28:04. > :28:08.Scotland, 5 billion comes off the Barnett formula? It will be a lot
:28:09. > :28:13.more complicated than that, but yes, as their own decisions about
:28:14. > :28:18.taxation are made, the grand from Westminster will go down. And you
:28:19. > :28:23.can guarantee that if there is a majority Conservative government,
:28:24. > :28:26.there will be English votes for English laws after the election
:28:27. > :28:30.Yes, I stress again that there are different ways of doing it but if
:28:31. > :28:34.there is no cross-party agreement on that, the Conservatives will produce
:28:35. > :28:40.our proposals and campaign for them in the general election. Don't go
:28:41. > :28:46.away because I want to move on to some other matters.
:28:47. > :28:48.Now to the fight against so-called Islamic State terrorists.
:28:49. > :28:51.Yesterday, RAF Tornado jets carried out their first flights over Iraq
:28:52. > :28:53.since MPs gave their approval for air-strikes against the militants.
:28:54. > :29:02.When you face a situation with psychobabble -- psychopathic killers
:29:03. > :29:06.who have already brutally beheaded one of our own citizens, who have
:29:07. > :29:11.already launched and tried to execute plots in our own country to
:29:12. > :29:16.maim innocent people, we have a choice - we can either stand back
:29:17. > :29:20.from this and say it is too difficult, let's let someone else
:29:21. > :29:24.try to keep our country safe, or we take the correct decision to have a
:29:25. > :29:29.full, comprehensive strategy but let's be prepared to play our role
:29:30. > :29:33.to make sure these people cannot do not trust harm.
:29:34. > :29:36.And William Hague is still with me - until July he was, of course,
:29:37. > :29:49.Why have only six Tornado jets being mobilised? Do not assume that is all
:29:50. > :29:52.that will be taking part in this operation. That is all that has been
:29:53. > :30:00.announced and I do not think we should speculate. Even the Danes are
:30:01. > :30:02.sending more fighter jets. There is no restriction in the House of
:30:03. > :30:08.Commons resolution passed on Friday on what we can do. So why so
:30:09. > :30:13.little? Do not underestimate what our Tornados can do. They have some
:30:14. > :30:18.unique capabilities, capabilities which have been specifically asked
:30:19. > :30:21.for by our allies. When you are on the wrong end of six Tornados, it
:30:22. > :30:27.will not feel like a small effort. But there will be other things which
:30:28. > :30:30.can add to that effort. We are joining in a month after the
:30:31. > :30:36.operation started, we are late, we are behind America, France,
:30:37. > :30:39.Australia, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, one hand tied behind our
:30:40. > :30:45.backs cause of the rule about not attacking Syria - why is the British
:30:46. > :30:49.government leading from behind? First of all, we are a democratic
:30:50. > :30:54.country, and you know all about Parliamentary approval. You could
:30:55. > :30:58.have recalled parliament. We have done that, with a political
:30:59. > :31:03.consensus. Other European countries also took the decision on Friday to
:31:04. > :31:06.send their military assets. Our allies are absolutely content with
:31:07. > :31:09.that, and Britain will play an important role, along with many
:31:10. > :31:17.other nations, including Arab nations. General Sir David Richards
:31:18. > :31:22.Sheriff, who just steps down as the Nato Deputy Supreme Commander, he
:31:23. > :31:24.condemns the spineless lack of leadership and the absence of any
:31:25. > :31:35.credible strategy. It is embarrassing,isn't it? Of course,
:31:36. > :31:39.they turn into armchair generals. We are playing an important role, we
:31:40. > :31:44.are a democratic country. Your viewers will remember, we had a vote
:31:45. > :31:47.last year on military action in Syria and we were defeated in the
:31:48. > :31:51.House of Commons, a bad moment for our foreign policy. We have taken
:31:52. > :31:55.care to bring this forward when we can win a vote in the House of
:31:56. > :32:03.Commons, and that is how we will proceed. The air Chief Marshal until
:32:04. > :32:08.recently in charge of the RAF, he says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq
:32:09. > :32:15.but not Syria. He calls the decision ludicrous. Of course, it DOES make
:32:16. > :32:23.sense to bomb Iraq, because the Iraqi government has asked for our
:32:24. > :32:26.assistance. This came up a lot in the debate on Friday, and the Prime
:32:27. > :32:32.Minister explained, similar to what I have just been saying, that there
:32:33. > :32:36.is not a political consensus about Syria in the House of Commons. When
:32:37. > :32:40.we did it last year, we were defeated, and it was described by
:32:41. > :32:46.all commentators as a huge blow to the government and to our foreign
:32:47. > :32:49.policy. So, we will bring forward proposals when there is a majority
:32:50. > :32:55.in this country to do so in the House of Commons. Professor Michael
:32:56. > :33:01.Clarke, one of the world top experts on military strategy and history, he
:33:02. > :33:05.says there are very few important IS targets in northern Iraq, that they
:33:06. > :33:10.are all in Syria, and we are limiting ourselves to the periphery
:33:11. > :33:13.of the campaign. First of all, just because you are not doing everything
:33:14. > :33:17.does not mean you should not do something. Secondly, the United
:33:18. > :33:21.States and other countries are engaged in the action against
:33:22. > :33:27.targets in Syria. This is a coalition effort, with people doing
:33:28. > :33:31.different things. Thirdly, if we were to put their proposal to the
:33:32. > :33:35.House of Commons tomorrow, and it was defeated, we would not have
:33:36. > :33:39.achieved a great deal. You do not know it would have been defeated.
:33:40. > :33:43.The Labour Party has given no indication they would have supported
:33:44. > :33:48.that. So, you are hostage to the Labour Party? We have to win a
:33:49. > :33:51.democratic vote in the House of Commons, and the Labour Party is a
:33:52. > :33:57.very large part of the House of Commons. You are asking us to pursue
:33:58. > :34:02.a policy which at the moment could be defeated in Parliament. Is it not
:34:03. > :34:07.embarrassing to be on the wrong side of so many of these military
:34:08. > :34:11.experts? Why should we trust the judgment of here today, gone
:34:12. > :34:18.tomorrow, politicians? We have the military experts with us now. We
:34:19. > :34:22.have a national security council, we do not have sofa government, unlike
:34:23. > :34:25.the last government. The national security council is chaired by the
:34:26. > :34:33.Prime Minister. Alongside the Chief of Defence Staff and the heads of
:34:34. > :34:37.the intelligence agencies. And we take decisions together with the
:34:38. > :34:43.people who have the information now. So, you will know what British
:34:44. > :34:48.and American intelligence says about Syria. The Prime Minister has said
:34:49. > :34:52.there is a danger that the British-born jihadists will come
:34:53. > :34:54.back and attack us. But the intelligence reports which you will
:34:55. > :35:00.have seen are clear - Al-Qaeda and its associates are selecting,
:35:01. > :35:06.indoctrinating and training jihadists in Syria, not Iraq. Does
:35:07. > :35:13.that not make the Syrian exclusion even more ludicrous? I cannot
:35:14. > :35:18.comment on intelligence. Is the situation in Syria I direct threat
:35:19. > :35:24.to this country? Yes, it is. Have we excluded action? No, we haven't.
:35:25. > :35:28.Could you come back to the House? The Prime Minister said, it was in
:35:29. > :35:32.the motion put to the House of Commons, that if we want to take
:35:33. > :35:37.action in Syria, we will come back to the House of Commons. But we have
:35:38. > :35:42.not taken any decision about that and we would not do so if we thought
:35:43. > :35:45.we were going to be defeated again. The government supports US strikes
:35:46. > :35:52.on Syria, show you must relieve they are legal. Either way the legal
:35:53. > :35:56.basis differs from one country to another, according to their reading
:35:57. > :36:02.of international law. But you have supported it. We do believe that
:36:03. > :36:06.they and Arab countries are taking action legally and we support their
:36:07. > :36:13.action. But I understand your legitimate questions. But it comes
:36:14. > :36:19.back to your basic question, why in Iraq and not Syria. Nonetheless, it
:36:20. > :36:24.is important to take action in Iraq. We are also engaged in Syria
:36:25. > :36:30.in building up the political strength of the more moderate
:36:31. > :36:34.opposition and in trying to bring about a peace agreement, and we do
:36:35. > :36:41.not exclude action in Syria in the future. If we propose doing
:36:42. > :36:46.something, then we ask for the specific legal advice. Why would you
:36:47. > :36:51.not ask for the legal advice anyway? Because you have to be sure
:36:52. > :36:55.of the legal advice at the time, and also we do not comment on the advice
:36:56. > :37:00.given to us by the Law officers. Mr Blair ended up publishing his. That
:37:01. > :37:04.was because there was a huge legal dispute. So you have not had legal
:37:05. > :37:09.advice yet that Britain attacking Syria would be legal? The legal
:37:10. > :37:13.situation is unlikely to be the barrier in this case, let me put it
:37:14. > :37:23.that way. Within international law, you can act in the event of extreme
:37:24. > :37:26.humanitarian distress and elective self-defence, so one can imagine
:37:27. > :37:27.strong legal justification, but of course, we will take the legal
:37:28. > :37:29.advice at the time. watching The Sunday Politics. We say
:37:30. > :37:34.goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who Scotland. Coming up here in 20
:37:35. > :37:45.minutes, The Week Ahead. Is it time for us to get
:37:46. > :37:49.closer to the West Midlands? Politicians want better links,
:37:50. > :37:51.but do you? Someone's come up with the hdea of
:37:52. > :37:54.joining forces, the East and West Midlands together, in order to get
:37:55. > :37:57.more money from central govdrnment. And the region's Conservatives are
:37:58. > :38:03.gathering in Birmingham for their annual party confdrence
:38:04. > :38:06.and our political editor, On any normal Sunday morning,
:38:07. > :38:10.George Clooney's wedding wotld dominate the front pages but not
:38:11. > :38:13.today because the front pagds and the inside pages are dolinated
:38:14. > :38:16.by the latest Tory difficulties A defection to UKIP
:38:17. > :38:26.and minister's resignation, so what do Conservatives
:38:27. > :38:29.from the East Midlands make of it all as they gather in Birmingham
:38:30. > :38:31.for the annual conference? Hello, I'm Marie Ashby
:38:32. > :38:34.and my guests this week, Frdsh from his party's annual conference, which
:38:35. > :38:36.has grabbed a few headlines, is UKIP's Roger Helmer, a European MP
:38:37. > :38:39.for his party in the East Mhdlands. He's joined by Issan Gazhni
:38:40. > :38:42.from the Liberal Democrats. He's chair of the party in the
:38:43. > :38:44.East Midlands. And if you're
:38:45. > :38:49.following the programme on Twitter and seeing a lot
:38:50. > :38:52.of references to the Great British Bake Off that's probably because in
:38:53. > :38:54.the director's gallery todax we ve He's tweeting his thoughts
:38:55. > :38:59.on the show so far and the rest So, Roger, obviously you've come
:39:00. > :39:17.away from your conference btoyed up by the defection of Consdrvative
:39:18. > :39:19.MP Mark Reckless to UKIP. The obvious question,
:39:20. > :39:29.have you got your eye on anx If I had, I wouldn't tell you but,
:39:30. > :39:34.honestly, I haven't. I am not at the top of the party. I can't comment on
:39:35. > :39:38.that but I can comment on the conference. It must've been to about
:39:39. > :39:42.20 of them in my political career. I have never seen one so
:39:43. > :39:48.enthusiastic, so electrified, so determined to make progress. It was
:39:49. > :39:53.going extremely well up unthl 2 0 yesterday, when Mark Reckless
:39:54. > :39:56.arrived. The thing exploded and others like someone had won the
:39:57. > :39:57.football cup. Mark Spencer, the Sherwood LP,
:39:58. > :40:00.retweeted a tweet yesterday in which someone said they had a fiver
:40:01. > :40:03.on him being the next Tory to go. Well, knowing Mark Spencer,
:40:04. > :40:05.we're pretty sure he's joking. But really,
:40:06. > :40:07.outside of the European elections, you haven't made much of an impact
:40:08. > :40:18.in the East Midlands, have xou? Well, if you look at the European
:40:19. > :40:23.election results in Skegness, for example, we polled more than 50 of
:40:24. > :40:27.the vote and recent opinion polls I have seen out of the constituency
:40:28. > :40:31.shows that we are in with an extremely strong chance of winning
:40:32. > :40:34.that seat. So we think we'rd going to be making progress. Therd are
:40:35. > :40:40.other seeds, of course, we be targeting. Everybody said, OK, you
:40:41. > :40:43.got the European election and that UKIP, it will fade away by the
:40:44. > :40:46.general election. It isn't. We are on a roll.
:40:47. > :40:48.And, Issan, as far as the Liberal Democrats are concerned
:40:49. > :40:51.in the East Midlands you're almost spectators with the big fights
:40:52. > :40:53.between the Conservatives and UKIP and Labour and the Conservatives.
:40:54. > :41:10.Yes, I mean, we are very active on the ground. We have local
:41:11. > :41:16.councillors and control somd local authorities. The odds are stacked
:41:17. > :41:21.against you, aren't they? That's the nature of the game. We are hn
:41:22. > :41:25.coalition and parties in co`lition of traditionally had a tough it s no
:41:26. > :41:32.different in our situation. It's a temporary setback. It is a blip and
:41:33. > :41:35.I'm confident we will recovdr. When we are knocking on doors in the East
:41:36. > :41:39.Midlands we're getting a positive response because the economx is
:41:40. > :41:42.recovering. And the austerity people had to go through is now showing
:41:43. > :41:48.signs of coming back. Let's hear from the Conserv`tives
:41:49. > :41:49.then. They are gathering
:41:50. > :41:51.for their annual party confdrence in Birmingham and our polithcal
:41:52. > :41:53.editor, John Hess is there. He's been talking to a couple of
:41:54. > :41:56.senior party members this morning. Well, Marie,
:41:57. > :41:58.it's a lovely sunny Sunday lorning The Town Hall and the Counchl House
:41:59. > :42:02.behind me but there's a dark political cloud over the st`rt
:42:03. > :42:05.of this Conservative conferdnce in Birmingham and that's because of the
:42:06. > :42:07.resignation of a government minister and of course the defection to UKIP
:42:08. > :42:11.by MP Mark Reckless so, to what extent could that trouble the
:42:12. > :42:13.Conservatives and their conference? Let's get the view of some senior
:42:14. > :42:17.East Midlands Conservatives here. Maggie hopes to be the next
:42:18. > :42:20.Conservative MP for Erewash and Neil Clark, the leader of the Cotncil in
:42:21. > :42:22.Nottinghamshire and an infltential Maggie, can I come to you fhrst
:42:23. > :42:28.because this isn't the exact start It's not going to detract
:42:29. > :42:33.from our conference at all. We know that only a Conserv`tive
:42:34. > :42:36.government can deliver There must be sympathy in the
:42:37. > :42:44.Conservative Association for UKIP I don't think there's much sympathy
:42:45. > :42:47.because It's starting to make
:42:48. > :42:51.a difference in Erewash On the UKIP issue, there's ` survey
:42:52. > :42:58.this morning by Sunday Politics which says the vast majoritx of Tory
:42:59. > :43:01.county councillors and district councillors would like some form
:43:02. > :43:05.of electoral pact with UKIP. I think that's something
:43:06. > :43:10.really to talk about later. What's really important is
:43:11. > :43:12.the Conservatives put We've got a lot of good news and,
:43:13. > :43:18.as Maggie has said, we have the guarantee of a referendtm
:43:19. > :43:21.and it's important that people vote Conservative because if thex vote
:43:22. > :43:25.for UKIP, they will let Labour in and we want to keep going whth
:43:26. > :43:29.our Conservative message. But you must be concerned
:43:30. > :43:31.about UKIP? Are they poaching Tory councillors
:43:32. > :43:35.even in the East Midlands? Obviously they are a concern,
:43:36. > :43:38.just like all opposition parties are a concern but we will continue to
:43:39. > :43:43.put our positive messages across. Maggie,
:43:44. > :43:47.what do you need to hear from David Cameron this week which would get
:43:48. > :43:50.the Tories re`elected in a highly We've seen in the last couple
:43:51. > :43:57.of years, with our plan, th`t we are making products again and that
:43:58. > :44:01.is seen across the East Midlands with Bombardier and Rolls Royce
:44:02. > :44:05.manufacturing, making products. We've seen that with Erewash
:44:06. > :44:10.specialist manufacturers. Clooney Lace, Tech`Quipment
:44:11. > :44:13.and it's utterly good news. Are people seeing the benefhts
:44:14. > :44:15.of this revival? One message that has alreadx gone
:44:16. > :44:22.out is we are committing to three million more apprentices
:44:23. > :44:25.in the next government. That has got to be good news
:44:26. > :44:32.for people in Erewash. There is bound to be some bhg policy
:44:33. > :44:37.announcement from the government What do you think is in it
:44:38. > :44:41.for English local government? We have got to make sure th`t we
:44:42. > :44:45.don't create a bureaucracy that s We need to be ensuring
:44:46. > :44:53.the government gives us those powers Even for Borough councils
:44:54. > :44:57.like yours? Borough councils, county cotncils,
:44:58. > :45:01.we need to be together. I encourage councils to
:45:02. > :45:04.work closely together. If we are given the opportunity
:45:05. > :45:07.by the government to work closely together with more powers to make
:45:08. > :45:09.collective decisions, No, because we need to ensure that
:45:10. > :45:18.councils still maintain their sovereignty
:45:19. > :45:20.but that doesn't stop them working very closely together and ddlivering
:45:21. > :45:25.services for each other. OK, Maggie, a good week
:45:26. > :45:27.for the Conservatives this week A very good week
:45:28. > :45:29.for the Conservatives, continuing to get our message
:45:30. > :45:31.across that we are delivering a long`term economic plan for
:45:32. > :45:35.the hard`working people of Drewash. The main message from Grant Shapps,
:45:36. > :45:41.the chairman of the Conserv`tives, when this conference opens this
:45:42. > :46:02.morning, will be securing They talk about the revival of the
:46:03. > :46:04.economy. Behind those headlhnes of defections, the economy is hmproving
:46:05. > :46:10.quickly and they will benefht from that. The economy is improvhng and
:46:11. > :46:13.it's taken a long time. Thex are not getting the deficit down, btt you
:46:14. > :46:18.referred to the confident mdssages. They are whistling in the whnd. I
:46:19. > :46:22.want to pick up the point only a Conservative government would give
:46:23. > :46:26.you a referendum. As Mark Rdckless said yesterday, David Cameron is
:46:27. > :46:29.using this promise of a refdrendum and a renegotiation to kick the
:46:30. > :46:33.issue of Europe into the long grass till after the general election I
:46:34. > :46:37.have been in Brussels for 14 years, I know there is no renegoti`tion
:46:38. > :46:41.going to happen. He will cole back, just like Harold Wilson did, with
:46:42. > :46:46.some cosmetic changes and, on the back of that, he will ask the
:46:47. > :46:51.British people to vote to stay in. That's not what we want. Nehll clerk
:46:52. > :46:57.say if people vote for UKIP it's a way of letting Labour in. Absolutely
:46:58. > :47:01.not. At the beginning of UKHP, we tended to take more support from the
:47:02. > :47:08.Conservatives than Labour. We've just had our conference in Labour
:47:09. > :47:11.heartland in Doncaster. Look at the results in northern constittencies.
:47:12. > :47:15.We are taking support across`the`board. The idea we are
:47:16. > :47:18.only taking support from thd Conservatives is absurd. Yot have
:47:19. > :47:24.your party conference next week Will you be announcing any
:47:25. > :47:32.defections? No, but we will be announcing is a strategy, in
:47:33. > :47:37.particular our environmental policy, a new 5`point plan which will be
:47:38. > :47:42.coming out very shortly. And that will address issues very important.
:47:43. > :47:49.Is that the way to carve out a role in the East Midlands for yotrself?
:47:50. > :47:52.Do you think that's the way forward? No, environmental issues is one set
:47:53. > :47:55.of policies but we will also be talking about how to manage the
:47:56. > :48:00.economy, we have worked effdctively with the coalition and I thhnk it's
:48:01. > :48:06.been excellent because of Lhb Dem involvement. Do you take crddit for
:48:07. > :48:09.the way the economy is improving? Yes, because we'd been very careful
:48:10. > :48:15.making sure the austerity mdasures have been implemented in a fair way.
:48:16. > :48:20.We have kept control of somd of the Tory accesses and we do takd credit
:48:21. > :48:25.for that. We heard that you can have been contacting conservativd
:48:26. > :48:30.councillors in Charnwood bulls are you speaking to other Conservative
:48:31. > :48:36.councillors? Not personally. Is the party? As a party, we are h`ppy to
:48:37. > :48:43.talk to Labour and Conservative councillors, and again, I stress,
:48:44. > :48:46.we're getting support from lots of Labour supporters. Our chairman of
:48:47. > :48:49.the former Labour councillor so I reject the premise of your puestion
:48:50. > :48:56.that we would only be talking to Conservatives. We are keen to talk
:48:57. > :49:02.to people across`the`board, we are not right or left but common sense.
:49:03. > :49:06.Rumours today the third, another Tory MP about to defect. Wh`t is up
:49:07. > :49:14.your sleeve? Honest, hand on heart, I do not know. One of the great
:49:15. > :49:18.things about Nigel Farage is he will conduct these negotiations
:49:19. > :49:20.personally and he is absolutely meticulous and keeping them secret
:49:21. > :49:25.and that's why people are prepared to talk to us. Frankly, if the
:49:26. > :49:29.Conservative or Labour MP c`me to talk to UKIP, and we tell the top
:49:30. > :49:32.ten people in the party, it would be in the Daily Mail tomorrow. Nobody
:49:33. > :49:37.would come full that they come because they know it will bd treated
:49:38. > :49:41.in absolute confidence. UKIP recently is made some stridds, and
:49:42. > :49:46.we can see, it's obviously come you can't ignore them at this moment but
:49:47. > :49:51.I do believe it is short`term and I don't believe it's a long`tdrm
:49:52. > :49:54.issue. The biggest threat UKIP places is to the Conservative Party
:49:55. > :49:58.and I do think David Cameron is extremely worried about the impact
:49:59. > :50:04.of losses for the Conservathve Party and I don't agree that your
:50:05. > :50:14.impact... The Lib Dems aren't as worried? Agro blew our voters would
:50:15. > :50:22.not vote for UKIP. `` our voters would not vote for UKIP. We have got
:50:23. > :50:23.Lib Dem people voting us. There s not such a big group are thdre to
:50:24. > :50:27.join us. Now, is it time to cuddle up to our
:50:28. > :50:30.neighbours in the West Midl`nds This week's Labour conference saw
:50:31. > :50:34.the launch of Midlands Conndct, an attempt to build closer ties between
:50:35. > :50:37.the two sides of the region. At the moment,
:50:38. > :50:40.the Midlands can feel split in two, dissected by motorways and rail
:50:41. > :50:42.lines all heading north to south. The plan will be to bring the East
:50:43. > :50:46.and West closer together and to encourage better links betwden
:50:47. > :50:48.cities on both sides of the divide. Well, we
:50:49. > :50:50.like to think we got there first. Two weeks ago we were discussing,
:50:51. > :50:53.slightly tongue in cheek, the prospects of an independent
:50:54. > :50:55.Mercia and imagining what a Midlands We even worked out we could have
:50:56. > :51:02.a King Gary Lineker and a And, of course,
:51:03. > :51:05.our coins would be the medidval But there is
:51:06. > :51:12.of course a serious side to this. With the fear that more powdr for
:51:13. > :51:15.local authorities could see more money going over our heads from
:51:16. > :51:18.Whitehall to the north of England. So what do you think,
:51:19. > :51:21.is it time we joined forces to fight Are they for closer links whth
:51:22. > :51:34.the West Midlands or do thex simply What do you think of the idda
:51:35. > :51:39.of the East and West Midlands joining up in order to get lore
:51:40. > :51:42.money from central government? We are not going to get bendfit
:51:43. > :51:52.from it, do you know what I mean? Someone's come up with the hdea of
:51:53. > :51:56.joining forces, the East and West Midlands together, in order to get
:51:57. > :51:59.more money from central govdrnment. To unite the East and West Lidlands
:52:00. > :52:09.in order to get more money from central government,
:52:10. > :52:12.is that a good idea? If we do get extra money
:52:13. > :52:16.and it helps both sides, ye`h, it's As long
:52:17. > :52:21.as the money does get spent on both Don't you think they are separate
:52:22. > :52:27.entities, the East and the West Midlands,
:52:28. > :52:33.and they should remain that way Well, in the old days, we wdre part
:52:34. > :52:37.of the kingdom of Murcia and they were united, but I know, I hear what
:52:38. > :52:41.you're saying, you're right. But people may be pragmatic
:52:42. > :52:48.if that will get some money out East and West Midlands unitdd to get
:52:49. > :52:52.more money from central govdrnment, The East Midlands has always
:52:53. > :52:59.been very, very strong. We've got some marvellous
:53:00. > :53:04.countryside, some marvellous cities. We don't really want to be
:53:05. > :53:06.tarred with the West Midlands. Joining us to discuss all that is
:53:07. > :53:18.Anne Western, the Labour le`der of Derbyshire County Council who was
:53:19. > :53:21.at the launch of Midlands Connect. Tell us first of all what
:53:22. > :53:31.Midlands Connect is. It sounds a good bus servicd. It's
:53:32. > :53:37.about the Midlands coming together and speaking with one louder voice.
:53:38. > :53:41.We are at an interesting st`ge in terms of English politics. We've
:53:42. > :53:44.seen the Scottish referendul on a huge demand for something dhfferent
:53:45. > :53:49.in Scotland and I think people in England are asking those qudstions
:53:50. > :53:53.as well. How do we pull powdrs from London and the south`east and bring
:53:54. > :53:58.it to the places where we lhve? We see a strong south`east economy the
:53:59. > :54:03.northern cities starting to work together to argue for the North
:54:04. > :54:08.It's our time and is not about giving anything up, forming any new
:54:09. > :54:11.bureaucracy, it's just about the councils and the communities across
:54:12. > :54:15.the East and West Midlands speaking with a louder voice and argting for
:54:16. > :54:22.greater transport links across East and West to join our economx. There
:54:23. > :54:27.was some scepticism and people said pigs might fly. Is this somdthing
:54:28. > :54:32.which might get off the grotnd? I think it's the right time for this
:54:33. > :54:36.sort of idea. If we don't do this, we would get left behind and become
:54:37. > :54:40.the empty space between London and the south`east and the North. I m
:54:41. > :54:43.very proud of what we have got an East Midlands particular prhde in
:54:44. > :54:46.what we got in Derbyshire and I don't want to compromise for anybody
:54:47. > :54:51.but it's about working with other partners so we can get our lessage
:54:52. > :54:59.across. The East Midlands ndver had its fair share of resources. Is this
:55:00. > :55:03.a good idea? It's cosmetic. I think transport, Camilla K Schnitzer to
:55:04. > :55:13.come is important anyway, and normal council business... Is councils more
:55:14. > :55:15.cosmetic? Transport? We need to look the regional assembly concept
:55:16. > :55:21.because I believe we need to be thinking regionally and working
:55:22. > :55:27.collectively for the isn't that what Annie is saying? Working together as
:55:28. > :55:30.regions? Agro blew she is w`lking about local authorities working
:55:31. > :55:34.cosmetically together for the that's not what I'm saying. People don t
:55:35. > :55:40.want more bureaucracy full survey don't want regional assemblhes. That
:55:41. > :55:44.debate is ten years old and they were not popular. It's about being
:55:45. > :55:50.pragmatic and about flexing our combined muscles a bit more. To make
:55:51. > :55:54.the argument to government that this sort of level of infrastructure
:55:55. > :56:00.funding we're talking about does not currently sit with councils. It sits
:56:01. > :56:04.in Whitehall and is divided by civil servants, most of whom don't know
:56:05. > :56:08.the regions. I think you will find the terms of reference have now
:56:09. > :56:12.changed post`Scottish referdndum so people will be looking at something
:56:13. > :56:16.a little bit more structural to reflect the power shift which has
:56:17. > :56:22.occurred the moment. What does help you in Europe? At the moment, we
:56:23. > :56:28.don't know exactly what it hs and what it's going to be but following
:56:29. > :56:32.the Scottish result, UKIP are saying yes, Scottish people devolution but
:56:33. > :56:36.we must have come at the sale time, a complete settlement for England
:56:37. > :56:39.and Wales and Northern Irel`nd and therefore, we ought to have a
:56:40. > :56:45.constitutional convention that would look at the whole situation. What is
:56:46. > :56:48.your view on that as the le`der of the campaign? While people `re doing
:56:49. > :56:56.what the finer points, the world is changing. `` arguing about the finer
:56:57. > :57:01.points. Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle are
:57:02. > :57:05.working together now. They have got deals and are working together. The
:57:06. > :57:11.East Midlands is different, it's not dominated... This is fundamdntal,
:57:12. > :57:17.how central government shards it funding, and how it is allocated,
:57:18. > :57:21.who controls it. Back to thd Midlands connect idea. Isn't there a
:57:22. > :57:24.danger that the East Midlands could be swallowed up by the West Midlands
:57:25. > :57:33.with all the attention going to them? That's why you don't like the
:57:34. > :57:37.idea? I don't like the idea by think we should regional governments.
:57:38. > :57:45.There's no harm working across boundaries with the police, social
:57:46. > :57:48.services, the NHS, so public sector cooperation to get efficiencies of
:57:49. > :57:52.scale and better services, that s OK. But I think actually, wd should
:57:53. > :57:57.retain government is at a rdgional level. We need to know who will
:57:58. > :58:03.control it. It's fine to sax speak with one voice. How will it be
:58:04. > :58:10.democratically accountable? Until we have answers to those questhons we
:58:11. > :58:16.don't know. While we debate this, we need to be arguing for our own
:58:17. > :58:19.corner. Like the northern chties are doing full is if we sit back and
:58:20. > :58:24.wait for six months, till somebody tells us what we can do, thd moment
:58:25. > :58:30.would have gone. And we will have lost out. We need to understand what
:58:31. > :58:35.the proposal is. Democratic`lly elected councils are coming together
:58:36. > :58:39.to form combined authorities and organise ourselves in a way which
:58:40. > :58:47.works so we can take the message to government. What stage is this art?
:58:48. > :58:51.Its early stages. It's prim`rily about connectivity, transport links
:58:52. > :58:55.between West and East Midlands. We have strong links north and south
:58:56. > :59:01.with the M1, the rail links and we have not got good East and West
:59:02. > :59:08.links and that's what we nedd. We have not got HS2, by the wax. If we
:59:09. > :59:13.have our way, won't have it. That is the proposals. We have to ldave it
:59:14. > :59:15.there but thanks for making it clearer for us.
:59:16. > :59:18.Time for a round`up of some of the other political storhes
:59:19. > :59:23.The South Leicestershire MP Andrew Robathan has announced he is
:59:24. > :59:27.The former Northern Ireland Minister and Minister for State for the
:59:28. > :59:34.Armed Forces, who's 63, was an Army officer and had a spell in the SAS.
:59:35. > :59:39.This is a serious question about serious issues.
:59:40. > :59:41.We're used to seeing him as the ruthless inquisitor chairing
:59:42. > :59:46.Can I say, on behalf of this committee, that we have found
:59:47. > :59:52.But Leicester East MP Keith Vaz has been showing a softer side
:59:53. > :59:54.at the Labour conference, dancing Gangnam Style at a party
:59:55. > :00:03.An event he was happy to recreate for the Daily Politics show.
:00:04. > :00:06.And the Beast of Bolsover was showing
:00:07. > :00:09.Dennis Skinner signed copies of his autobiography, Sailing Close
:00:10. > :00:15.To The Wind, his memoirs of 44 years in the House of Commons.
:00:16. > :00:32.Apparently he sold 100 copids in one session.
:00:33. > :00:36.His dance moves will stay whth us, Keith Vaz.
:00:37. > :00:38.That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands.
:00:39. > :00:39.My thanks to Roger Helmer and Issan Ghazni for being this week's guests.
:00:40. > :00:55.My thanks to you both. Andrew, back to you.
:00:56. > :01:03.Here we are back in Birmingham with the Conservatives. The Tories
:01:04. > :01:09.thought all they had to do was come here, have a rally, a jamboree, and
:01:10. > :01:14.off they go to the races, or in their case the general election Two
:01:15. > :01:20.races later it hasn't quite worked out like that. Let's look at the
:01:21. > :01:26.state of this conference as it gets under way. On our panel we are
:01:27. > :01:31.joined by David Davis. You wrote an article in the Mail on Sunday this
:01:32. > :01:38.morning which was an Exocet at the heart of David Cameron's modernising
:01:39. > :01:44.strategy. It was designed to act as a lever. It was designed to cause
:01:45. > :01:48.trouble. No, we are in the running for the next general election. One
:01:49. > :01:53.of the characteristics of having a five year fixed term Parliaments is
:01:54. > :01:57.that the last year is about campaigning. It is important we beat
:01:58. > :02:03.Miliband, he would be a disastrous Prime Minister. You think the whole
:02:04. > :02:12.modernising strategy was a wrong turn, that is what the article said.
:02:13. > :02:31.Yes. Has that opened the door to UKIP? It has left a lot of people
:02:32. > :02:34.disillusioned with politics. What do you do to get it right? Who was
:02:35. > :03:09.listening to you? Frankly we need to take a more
:03:10. > :03:13.robust series of policies. How many more UKIP defections will there be?
:03:14. > :03:22.I do not think there will be any more. I would be very surprised I
:03:23. > :03:26.know Nigel Farage has a brilliant sense of timing, but I do not think
:03:27. > :03:32.he has got the resources to do that, namely, another Tory MP. So it could
:03:33. > :03:38.be another Labour one, maybe? I think an awful lot will hinge on
:03:39. > :03:43.what happens in Rochester. Because that is not a slam dunk. Clack and
:03:44. > :03:55.unfortunately looks like it will be a walkover for them. But Rochester
:03:56. > :04:01.is a different scene. And so, there could be a kind of Newark situation.
:04:02. > :04:06.When I campaigned in Newark, two labour families I spoke to said they
:04:07. > :04:12.would vote Tory to keep UKIP out. How bad was the Labour conference
:04:13. > :04:16.last week? One politician said after he had a really bad performance that
:04:17. > :04:21.his television performance was suboptimal. I think that would be a
:04:22. > :04:25.good way of describing Ed Miliband's speech. The problem for
:04:26. > :04:28.Ed Miliband in memorising speeches is that we are not auditioning for a
:04:29. > :04:34.new lines Olivier, we're rehearsing for Prime Minister. He failed the
:04:35. > :04:37.Laurence Olivier test, and therefore failed the Prime Minister test. I
:04:38. > :04:41.think the real problem for him was forgetting to mention the deficit.
:04:42. > :04:46.He spoke from the heart about issues which she really cares about, the
:04:47. > :04:50.NHS, the rupture between wages and inflation, and forgot the deficit.
:04:51. > :04:53.Those issues are important, but if you are not addressing things like
:04:54. > :04:58.the deficit, then people are really not going to be listening to your
:04:59. > :05:06.messages on the areas that matter. Was it bad? Yes, suboptimal, I am
:05:07. > :05:09.afraid. I hope that this ends the nonsense of leaders wasting their
:05:10. > :05:13.time learning speeches off by heart. You could learn a Shakespeare
:05:14. > :05:18.play in the time it takes to learn 70 minutes of a leader's speech I
:05:19. > :05:22.think we should just go back to sensible reading what you have
:05:23. > :05:26.written. You can then alter it just beforehand. A lot of things were
:05:27. > :05:31.changing, which is not surprising, but he did not have time to learn
:05:32. > :05:35.it. It is a silly gimmick, it worked once or twice, but that is enough
:05:36. > :05:38.for that. Despite some of the derision of Mr Miliband, the Tories
:05:39. > :05:42.are flat-lining in the sun decks, they have been there almost since
:05:43. > :05:48.the disastrous budget, the omnishambles, of 2012, Labour is
:05:49. > :05:53.still several points ahead, nothing seems to change? And David Cameron
:05:54. > :05:57.is now the leader in trouble. It is almost as if a week is a long time
:05:58. > :06:04.in politics. I thought the Labour and friends was Saab --
:06:05. > :06:10.sub-suboptimal. It was so parochial. You could've watched the top
:06:11. > :06:15.speeches without knowing that the borders of Ukraine, and Iraq and
:06:16. > :06:18.Syria were in question. I hope, because of Friday's discussion in
:06:19. > :06:23.Parliament, that this conference will raise its sights a bit, and we
:06:24. > :06:27.will have something in Cameron's speech, possibly that of George
:06:28. > :06:32.Osborne as well, which is a bit more global. People hoped UKIP had gone
:06:33. > :06:39.away during the summer, people at this conference, I mean, but it is
:06:40. > :06:43.back with a bang. They are still up at 15% in the polls, the Tories
:06:44. > :06:48.languishing on 32 - what is going to change? UKIP won 3% of the last
:06:49. > :06:56.election, I always thought they would get about 6%. If, by the turn
:06:57. > :07:01.of the year, they are still in double digits, I think at that point
:07:02. > :07:06.you can begin to wake of his party's chances of winning. I have
:07:07. > :07:10.had three people say to me so far, come election day, it will be fine,
:07:11. > :07:14.people will sober up and so on. It will be all right on the night is
:07:15. > :07:22.not a very good strategy, frankly. When they get past 5%, I start to
:07:23. > :07:26.bite into our 3-way marginal seats, with liberals, Labour and Tories,
:07:27. > :07:31.and we have got about 60 of those in the Midlands and the north, so it
:07:32. > :07:35.really is quite serious. And if I may steal one of David's lines, when
:07:36. > :07:40.you were interviewing Mark Reckless this morning, and was not talking
:07:41. > :07:44.about the EU referendum, he was talking about how he felt he had
:07:45. > :07:47.broken his pledges to the electorate because the Conservatives he said
:07:48. > :07:50.had failed on immigration and on the deficit, and those sort of
:07:51. > :07:54.bread-and-butter issues could be really potent on the doorstep, which
:07:55. > :07:57.means the Tories have got to run the kind of campaign they ran in Newark,
:07:58. > :08:02.which is a real centre ground, Reddan but a campaign, in which they
:08:03. > :08:07.would hope to get Liberal Democrat and Labour voters out to vote
:08:08. > :08:12.tactically against UKIP. I think today we have seen Cameron been
:08:13. > :08:16.pushed to the right. He has had to say, yes, I would leave Europe,
:08:17. > :08:20.which he has never said before. It is a huge stepping stone, a big
:08:21. > :08:27.difference. It takes the Tory party somewhere else. May be get them a
:08:28. > :08:33.lot of votes. But it has not so far. But I think it loses a lot of
:08:34. > :08:37.people. The industry organisations, for example. The prospect of going
:08:38. > :08:43.out of Europe, but is quite a fight for them. Is it not the lesson that
:08:44. > :08:53.you can out UKIP UKIP? Well, you do not need to, really. I agree, last
:08:54. > :09:02.week was sub-sub-suboptimal. Hold on, that is enough subs! I would not
:09:03. > :09:08.be crowing too much! But what I was going to say, he left out something
:09:09. > :09:13.incredibly important, the deficit. But how many people outside the M25
:09:14. > :09:17.are thinking about the deficit? One problem we face with Miliband is, he
:09:18. > :09:22.is good at politics and bad at economics, in a way. He comes up
:09:23. > :09:26.with bonkers policies which people love, price-fixing, things like
:09:27. > :09:31.that. Our problem will be about relevance on the doorstep. I do not
:09:32. > :09:36.think at the end of the day it will be about Europe. But was there not a
:09:37. > :09:38.moment of danger for you at the conference, that one area where
:09:39. > :09:42.Miliband is potentially vulnerable is not having credible team with
:09:43. > :09:46.business. Who turned up at the Labour conference, the head of
:09:47. > :09:51.Airbus, saying, we have got to stay in the European Union? The danger is
:09:52. > :09:59.that Europe allows the Labour Party to gain credibility with business.
:10:00. > :10:03.There is some truth in that. But we are in effectively the home
:10:04. > :10:08.straight, the last six months, and people will be fussing about prices
:10:09. > :10:12.and jobs. Very parochial. They will not be saying, what does the CBI
:10:13. > :10:17.think about this? It is, what is happening to me, in my town, in my
:10:18. > :10:26.factory, in my office. That is where the fight will be. Is it not the
:10:27. > :10:30.truth that if UKIP stays anywhere near around this level of support,
:10:31. > :10:34.it is impossible for the Tories to win an overall majority? I would
:10:35. > :10:38.say, if it is this level of support, it is impossible for the Tories to
:10:39. > :10:43.finish as the biggest party, even in a hung Parliament. The Tories keep
:10:44. > :10:47.trying to win back UKIP voters with cold logic - witches it makes Ed
:10:48. > :10:53.Miliband becoming prime minister more likely. UKIP is basically a
:10:54. > :10:57.vessel phenomenon, coming from the gut, and David Cameron has never
:10:58. > :11:00.found the emotional pitch in his rhetoric to meet that. I wonder
:11:01. > :11:11.whether we will see that moron Wednesday. It is just not him. I
:11:12. > :11:16.hope we do. -- more on Wednesday. I hope you're right that we do
:11:17. > :11:22.actually engage on emotion. So far with UKIP, our policy has been to
:11:23. > :11:26.insult them. It does not work. I know that from my constituency. We
:11:27. > :11:29.have to say to them, there is a wider Tory family, we understand you
:11:30. > :11:35.are patria, we understand you are worried about your family, and we do
:11:36. > :11:38.the same. What does it tell us about the state of the Tories, seven
:11:39. > :11:41.months from the election, the economy is going well, they are not
:11:42. > :11:46.that far behind Labour, and yet there is all sorts of leadership
:11:47. > :11:49.speculation? It is extraordinary. They are doing well, they are in
:11:50. > :12:02.with a shout. It depends. UKIP has to be kept below 9% of. -- below
:12:03. > :12:06.9%. I think David Cameron is one of the few who speaks human, actually
:12:07. > :12:09.talks quite well to people and does not look like a swivel-eyed loons.
:12:10. > :12:14.Whereas a lot of people behind him do. You look at Duncan Smith and
:12:15. > :12:19.Eric Pickles, they are all kind of driven, ideological men, with very
:12:20. > :12:27.right-wing policies. And nice people! Don't hold back! He is not
:12:28. > :12:33.the Addams family, he is basically quite human. I think a lot of people
:12:34. > :12:36.do not realise how ideological he is himself and how well he has led his
:12:37. > :12:41.party in the direction they all want to go. You go on about him being
:12:42. > :12:46.this metropolitan moderniser, I do not think that is what he is,
:12:47. > :12:50.really. It may not be visible from the guardian offices in the
:12:51. > :12:56.metropolis! Everybody where you are, Polly, is a metropolitan moderniser.
:12:57. > :13:00.And where you are, too. That is the nature of living in London. The
:13:01. > :13:03.trouble is, when these people get into Westminster, they are part of
:13:04. > :13:09.Westminster, too. If you could only win by being an outsider, the moment
:13:10. > :13:12.you get in, you are done for. All teeing up nicely for Boris Johnson
:13:13. > :13:22.to be the next leader? I do not think so! The point of my Exocet, or
:13:23. > :13:26.lever, this morning, is that I think this is winnable. If we are good
:13:27. > :13:31.Tories for the next six months, we can do this. It is by denying ground
:13:32. > :13:37.to UKIP, not giving in to them, not buckling. Denying ground. Thank you
:13:38. > :13:41.to our panel. They did all right today, but the normal. That is your
:13:42. > :13:46.lot for today. I am back tomorrow. We will have live coverage of George
:13:47. > :13:50.Osborne's speech to the conference. I am back next week in Glasgow for
:13:51. > :13:55.The Sunday Politics at the Labour conference. How could you miss
:13:56. > :14:24.that? Remember, if it is Sunday it is The Sunday Politics. Bye-bye
:14:25. > :14:39.of statutory press regulation in sponge cake may be a bridge too far.
:14:40. > :14:42.I think I've overdone it with the pistachios
:14:43. > :14:45.and somehow, the custard's split, but it's too late!
:14:46. > :14:56.of statutory press regulation in sponge cake may be a bridge too far.