:00:41. > :00:46.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:47. > :00:47.Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,
:00:48. > :00:49.not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.
:00:50. > :00:51.But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,
:00:52. > :00:53.the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.
:00:54. > :00:55.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,
:00:56. > :00:58.but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party
:00:59. > :01:08.The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.
:01:09. > :01:13.You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!
:01:14. > :01:20.And in the East Midlands... mocked for talking about the impact
:01:21. > :01:22.Council tax is going up but services are still being cut.
:01:23. > :01:26.And the children who do not own a toothbrush - a new campaign
:01:27. > :01:32.In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local
:01:33. > :01:38.authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?
:01:39. > :01:41.And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased
:01:42. > :01:49.to say have so far not been banned from the White House.
:01:50. > :01:53.I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,
:01:54. > :01:56.but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,
:01:57. > :02:06.We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last
:02:07. > :02:11.Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe
:02:12. > :02:15.British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it
:02:16. > :02:20.may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is
:02:21. > :02:25.difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a
:02:26. > :02:30.credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the
:02:31. > :02:34.campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin
:02:35. > :02:38.with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but
:02:39. > :02:42.they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's
:02:43. > :02:46.hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems
:02:47. > :02:52.they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If
:02:53. > :02:59.Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at
:03:00. > :03:03.the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind
:03:04. > :03:08.despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never
:03:09. > :03:12.more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's
:03:13. > :03:18.the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she
:03:19. > :03:22.faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher
:03:23. > :03:27.who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked
:03:28. > :03:33.like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up
:03:34. > :03:40.to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite
:03:41. > :03:45.often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK
:03:46. > :03:49.opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her
:03:50. > :03:53.agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips
:03:54. > :03:59.with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be
:04:00. > :04:04.for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both
:04:05. > :04:08.strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and
:04:09. > :04:12.very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more
:04:13. > :04:18.dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go
:04:19. > :04:21.wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think
:04:22. > :04:26.through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority
:04:27. > :04:29.of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put
:04:30. > :04:33.under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the
:04:34. > :04:40.two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or
:04:41. > :04:43.the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to
:04:44. > :04:48.operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party
:04:49. > :04:51.to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be
:04:52. > :04:55.disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that
:04:56. > :05:01.would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip
:05:02. > :05:05.coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the
:05:06. > :05:12.moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures
:05:13. > :05:15.might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite
:05:16. > :05:18.anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press
:05:19. > :05:24.ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a
:05:25. > :05:28.slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of
:05:29. > :05:32.transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people
:05:33. > :05:36.happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground
:05:37. > :05:41.and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in
:05:42. > :05:44.which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for
:05:45. > :05:45.today. Thursday was a big night
:05:46. > :05:47.for political obsessives like us, with not one but two
:05:48. > :05:52.significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain
:05:53. > :06:00.to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,
:06:01. > :06:05.the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just
:06:06. > :06:09.a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent
:06:10. > :06:12.were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall
:06:13. > :06:16.on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon
:06:17. > :06:22.is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning
:06:23. > :06:25.strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved
:06:26. > :06:27.to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result
:06:28. > :06:30.in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away
:06:31. > :06:33.in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another
:06:34. > :06:38.Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both
:06:39. > :06:46.places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal
:06:47. > :06:49.by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,
:06:50. > :06:50.Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,
:06:51. > :06:53.winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,
:06:54. > :06:56.where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it
:06:57. > :07:00.onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare
:07:01. > :07:03.that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory
:07:04. > :07:11.here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader
:07:12. > :07:18.played down the defeat, insisting his party's
:07:19. > :07:21.time would come. Are you going to stand again
:07:22. > :07:27.as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,
:07:28. > :07:30.don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat
:07:31. > :07:39.the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this
:07:40. > :07:42.weekend who have got But a few minutes later,
:07:43. > :07:47.it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,
:07:48. > :07:51.the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000
:07:52. > :08:03.votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight
:08:04. > :08:07.is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,
:08:08. > :08:09.but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18
:08:10. > :08:21.points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes
:08:22. > :08:25.I think is an incredible The morning after the night
:08:26. > :08:29.before, the losing parties were licking their wounds
:08:30. > :08:33.and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,
:08:34. > :08:36.Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,
:08:37. > :08:43.that era has gone. It's a new era, it is
:08:44. > :08:46.a second age for us. So that needs to be
:08:47. > :08:50.more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,
:08:51. > :08:53.you know, and that will We have to continue to improve
:08:54. > :09:02.in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,
:09:03. > :09:05.we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,
:09:06. > :09:07.is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come
:09:08. > :09:12.here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP
:09:13. > :09:15.for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived
:09:16. > :09:18.in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to
:09:19. > :09:23.Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour
:09:24. > :09:26.leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some
:09:27. > :09:28.theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost
:09:29. > :09:35.a seat to a governing party for the first time
:09:36. > :09:38.since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning
:09:39. > :09:41.looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -
:09:42. > :09:46.could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives
:09:47. > :09:53.who came out on top. No governing party has made
:09:54. > :09:56.a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army
:09:57. > :10:02.of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out
:10:03. > :10:07.here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain
:10:08. > :10:18.on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in
:10:19. > :10:21.Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring
:10:22. > :10:23.conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson
:10:24. > :10:28.warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat
:10:29. > :10:30.seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated
:10:31. > :10:33.south of the border. Well, I'm joined now
:10:34. > :10:49.by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost
:10:50. > :10:52.Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the
:10:53. > :10:57.UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would
:10:58. > :11:05.absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to
:11:06. > :11:07.support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing
:11:08. > :11:11.for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for
:11:12. > :11:14.everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn
:11:15. > :11:18.around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do
:11:19. > :11:25.while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we
:11:26. > :11:28.were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working
:11:29. > :11:32.class communities across the country, but we listened very hard
:11:33. > :11:37.to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm
:11:38. > :11:43.committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is
:11:44. > :11:48.committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in
:11:49. > :11:54.Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even
:11:55. > :11:59.Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will
:12:00. > :12:04.try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general
:12:05. > :12:08.election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm
:12:09. > :12:12.the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for
:12:13. > :12:15.our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish
:12:16. > :12:18.Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we
:12:19. > :12:22.stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity
:12:23. > :12:27.platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and
:12:28. > :12:30.invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also
:12:31. > :12:37.supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to
:12:38. > :12:40.a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together
:12:41. > :12:45.by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the
:12:46. > :12:49.federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that
:12:50. > :12:53.ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional
:12:54. > :13:00.Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party
:13:01. > :13:05.and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will
:13:06. > :13:10.take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party
:13:11. > :13:15.can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide
:13:16. > :13:21.Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.
:13:22. > :13:28.Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to
:13:29. > :13:32.carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level
:13:33. > :13:35.is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to
:13:36. > :13:39.prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not
:13:40. > :13:44.to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the
:13:45. > :13:48.point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say
:13:49. > :13:52.there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it
:13:53. > :13:56.and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of
:13:57. > :14:01.this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that
:14:02. > :14:06.happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder
:14:07. > :14:09.people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What
:14:10. > :14:15.evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an
:14:16. > :14:20.English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal
:14:21. > :14:23.regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell
:14:24. > :14:28.you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that
:14:29. > :14:33.here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.
:14:34. > :14:37.What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast
:14:38. > :14:40.that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the
:14:41. > :14:45.north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that
:14:46. > :14:48.Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel
:14:49. > :14:52.remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being
:14:53. > :14:55.exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in
:14:56. > :15:00.because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways
:15:01. > :15:08.it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is
:15:09. > :15:11.leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation
:15:12. > :15:13.of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers
:15:14. > :15:16.to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English
:15:17. > :15:20.context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the
:15:21. > :15:21.English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,
:15:22. > :15:31.correct? It is absolutely the policy of the
:15:32. > :15:35.UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention
:15:36. > :15:40.to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're
:15:41. > :15:43.promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not
:15:44. > :15:49.even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is
:15:50. > :15:52.not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to
:15:53. > :15:57.Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.
:15:58. > :16:01.United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not
:16:02. > :16:06.united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power
:16:07. > :16:29.in this country. It is not united on that
:16:30. > :16:33.issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard
:16:34. > :16:35.yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people
:16:36. > :16:37.like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local
:16:38. > :16:40.Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.
:16:41. > :16:42.Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the
:16:43. > :16:44.whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a
:16:45. > :16:46.conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come
:16:47. > :16:49.onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He
:16:50. > :16:52.wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish
:16:53. > :16:55.nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance
:16:56. > :16:59.yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear
:17:00. > :17:04.yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was
:17:05. > :17:08.saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people
:17:09. > :17:13.and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up
:17:14. > :17:17.living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is
:17:18. > :17:23.forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,
:17:24. > :17:26.it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the
:17:27. > :17:31.consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing
:17:32. > :17:46.under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with
:17:47. > :17:50.ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He
:17:51. > :17:52.said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last
:17:53. > :17:55.minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and
:17:56. > :17:57.reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish
:17:58. > :18:01.nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that
:18:02. > :18:05.even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of
:18:06. > :18:13.nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it
:18:14. > :18:17.is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.
:18:18. > :18:21.Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly
:18:22. > :18:27.refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the
:18:28. > :18:32.SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did
:18:33. > :18:37.not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is
:18:38. > :18:41.divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.
:18:42. > :18:47.Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in
:18:48. > :18:52.Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence
:18:53. > :18:55.question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want
:18:56. > :19:01.to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and
:19:02. > :19:04.no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers
:19:05. > :19:09.lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,
:19:10. > :19:13.your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he
:19:14. > :19:22.referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --
:19:23. > :19:26.and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive
:19:27. > :19:30.politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we
:19:31. > :19:34.are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from
:19:35. > :19:38.saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That
:19:39. > :19:43.is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really
:19:44. > :19:49.struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about
:19:50. > :19:55.being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear
:19:56. > :19:58.that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the
:19:59. > :20:03.length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is
:20:04. > :20:07.what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back
:20:08. > :20:11.together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'
:20:12. > :20:12.time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for
:20:13. > :20:14.joining us. Thursday's win for Labour
:20:15. > :20:16.in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,
:20:17. > :20:19.but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall
:20:20. > :20:21.there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's
:20:22. > :20:31.principal political Welcome to the programme. Good
:20:32. > :20:35.morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,
:20:36. > :20:41.months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip
:20:42. > :20:46.was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting
:20:47. > :20:49.Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of
:20:50. > :20:53.Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to
:20:54. > :20:59.make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in
:21:00. > :21:05.Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.
:21:06. > :21:10.We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment
:21:11. > :21:15.that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.
:21:16. > :21:20.Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.
:21:21. > :21:25.A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out
:21:26. > :21:29.publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of
:21:30. > :21:34.Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt
:21:35. > :21:36.about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well
:21:37. > :21:53.the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of
:21:54. > :21:55.Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are
:21:56. > :21:57.passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the
:21:58. > :22:00.most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What
:22:01. > :22:02.would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul
:22:03. > :22:06.Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic
:22:07. > :22:12.cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip
:22:13. > :22:18.supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was
:22:19. > :22:25.marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip
:22:26. > :22:30.to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning
:22:31. > :22:33.what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is
:22:34. > :22:38.counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more
:22:39. > :22:44.difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a
:22:45. > :22:49.Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against
:22:50. > :22:53.triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the
:22:54. > :22:55.Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It
:22:56. > :23:12.comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.
:23:13. > :23:14.You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,
:23:15. > :23:16.they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning
:23:17. > :23:18.Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso
:23:19. > :23:21.labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,
:23:22. > :23:24.it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a
:23:25. > :23:29.future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour
:23:30. > :23:33.Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not
:23:34. > :23:37.recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around
:23:38. > :23:41.campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We
:23:42. > :23:44.believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working
:23:45. > :23:50.class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in
:23:51. > :23:55.Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable
:23:56. > :24:01.to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social
:24:02. > :24:05.solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation
:24:06. > :24:10.and community. We want an immigration system that is not only
:24:11. > :24:14.reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a
:24:15. > :24:19.whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When
:24:20. > :24:24.Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he
:24:25. > :24:32.was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It
:24:33. > :24:35.would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of
:24:36. > :24:38.Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions
:24:39. > :24:41.and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will
:24:42. > :24:46.fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true
:24:47. > :24:50.that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote
:24:51. > :24:54.might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and
:24:55. > :24:59.disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,
:25:00. > :25:04.Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant
:25:05. > :25:09.tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on
:25:10. > :25:13.immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the
:25:14. > :25:17.spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech
:25:18. > :25:24.before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the
:25:25. > :25:30.result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to
:25:31. > :25:33.set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you
:25:34. > :25:40.have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,
:25:41. > :25:45.do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and
:25:46. > :25:48.freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is
:25:49. > :25:52.certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,
:25:53. > :25:58.particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing
:25:59. > :26:01.to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.
:26:02. > :26:07.If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps
:26:08. > :26:12.to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the
:26:13. > :26:15.Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil
:26:16. > :26:21.Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As
:26:22. > :26:24.far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party
:26:25. > :26:29.formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He
:26:30. > :26:33.says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.
:26:34. > :26:39.He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What
:26:40. > :26:42.do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many
:26:43. > :26:47.months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas
:26:48. > :26:51.Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi
:26:52. > :26:58.chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the
:26:59. > :27:03.moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth
:27:04. > :27:06.running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I
:27:07. > :27:11.understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip
:27:12. > :27:16.if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.
:27:17. > :27:19.Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and
:27:20. > :27:24.support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate
:27:25. > :27:28.and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,
:27:29. > :27:32.people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the
:27:33. > :27:37.party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You
:27:38. > :27:42.have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it
:27:43. > :27:47.could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too
:27:48. > :27:51.optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'
:27:52. > :27:56.time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the
:27:57. > :28:01.guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a
:28:02. > :28:05.little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get
:28:06. > :28:10.seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will
:28:11. > :28:13.of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a
:28:14. > :28:15.magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.
:28:16. > :28:16.Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often
:28:17. > :28:20.should because this week it was pulled into
:28:21. > :28:21.the global spotlight, thanks
:28:22. > :28:30.Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that
:28:31. > :28:33.had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open
:28:34. > :28:37.Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred
:28:38. > :28:39.and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking
:28:40. > :28:43.about a report he had watched on Fox News.
:28:44. > :28:45.But as if to prove he was onto something,
:28:46. > :28:48.next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb
:28:49. > :28:50.with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas
:28:51. > :29:00.So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?
:29:01. > :29:02.In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second
:29:03. > :29:09.That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced
:29:10. > :29:11.border restrictions and stopped offering permanent
:29:12. > :29:19.Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,
:29:20. > :29:22.although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven
:29:23. > :29:30.Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants
:29:31. > :29:33.have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.
:29:34. > :29:35.Although the country does have the highest reported
:29:36. > :29:37.rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises
:29:38. > :29:43.were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.
:29:44. > :29:45.Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled
:29:46. > :29:51.Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes
:29:52. > :29:54.Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers
:29:55. > :30:07.We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the
:30:08. > :30:09.governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and
:30:10. > :30:25.The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,
:30:26. > :30:29.pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later
:30:30. > :30:33.serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm
:30:34. > :30:38.so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is
:30:39. > :30:43.misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is
:30:44. > :30:47.important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for
:30:48. > :30:51.the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate
:30:52. > :30:59.that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social
:31:00. > :31:03.unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical
:31:04. > :31:09.backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic
:31:10. > :31:14.reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of
:31:15. > :31:21.crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo
:31:22. > :31:26.attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that
:31:27. > :31:30.was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox
:31:31. > :31:35.News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that
:31:36. > :31:40.because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish
:31:41. > :31:45.authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant
:31:46. > :31:48.to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly
:31:49. > :31:54.the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides
:31:55. > :32:00.because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force
:32:01. > :32:05.which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of
:32:06. > :32:09.evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the
:32:10. > :32:12.rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the
:32:13. > :32:17.rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar
:32:18. > :32:21.forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian
:32:22. > :32:27.authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity
:32:28. > :32:32.so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of
:32:33. > :32:38.lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is
:32:39. > :32:43.difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many
:32:44. > :32:48.crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault
:32:49. > :32:53.are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman
:32:54. > :33:01.goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped
:33:02. > :33:06.her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as
:33:07. > :33:11.365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news
:33:12. > :33:14.from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the
:33:15. > :33:20.last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times
:33:21. > :33:26.higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo
:33:27. > :33:30.where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.
:33:31. > :33:34.Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now
:33:35. > :33:41.dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what
:33:42. > :33:46.I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for
:33:47. > :33:50.people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is
:33:51. > :33:55.a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we
:33:56. > :33:59.want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to
:34:00. > :34:05.receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because
:34:06. > :34:08.having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I
:34:09. > :34:14.think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at
:34:15. > :34:19.one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed
:34:20. > :34:22.that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it
:34:23. > :34:29.sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.
:34:30. > :34:32.Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do
:34:33. > :34:36.everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other
:34:37. > :34:40.countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you
:34:41. > :34:44.look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country
:34:45. > :34:48.they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live
:34:49. > :34:57.in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start
:34:58. > :35:03.enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The
:35:04. > :35:08.unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than
:35:09. > :35:12.non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and
:35:13. > :35:17.the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have
:35:18. > :35:22.brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do
:35:23. > :35:25.much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration
:35:26. > :35:30.that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated
:35:31. > :35:33.and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and
:35:34. > :35:41.working in different fields of society, and they help our country.
:35:42. > :35:48.Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes
:35:49. > :35:53.time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I
:35:54. > :35:56.put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a
:35:57. > :36:01.result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad
:36:02. > :36:04.as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can
:36:05. > :36:09.put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of
:36:10. > :36:16.these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.
:36:17. > :36:22.Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,
:36:23. > :36:27.they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees
:36:28. > :36:31.into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for
:36:32. > :36:35.the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge
:36:36. > :36:41.in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in
:36:42. > :36:45.Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt
:36:46. > :36:48.about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly
:36:49. > :36:54.exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish
:36:55. > :37:04.authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo
:37:05. > :37:14.registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010
:37:15. > :37:18.people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got
:37:19. > :37:24.to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are
:37:25. > :37:28.people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own
:37:29. > :37:35.agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our
:37:36. > :37:39.country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to
:37:40. > :37:43.people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say
:37:44. > :37:47.they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say
:37:48. > :37:52.again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.
:37:53. > :37:57.Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we
:37:58. > :38:01.have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped
:38:02. > :38:06.in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That
:38:07. > :38:10.happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An
:38:11. > :38:13.upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then
:38:14. > :38:18.total denial by an entire political class is now something that is
:38:19. > :38:21.happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial
:38:22. > :38:26.that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not
:38:27. > :38:34.answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to
:38:35. > :38:40.admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is
:38:41. > :38:45.covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by
:38:46. > :38:50.ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right
:38:51. > :38:54.parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what
:38:55. > :38:58.I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain
:38:59. > :39:02.way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background
:39:03. > :39:06.of the people living there but rather because of different
:39:07. > :39:12.socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows
:39:13. > :39:15.immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish
:39:16. > :39:19.authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and
:39:20. > :39:22.after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the
:39:23. > :39:27.Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual
:39:28. > :39:33.molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to
:39:34. > :39:38.think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out
:39:39. > :39:43.but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum
:39:44. > :39:48.seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in
:39:49. > :39:52.last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on
:39:53. > :39:57.getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do
:39:58. > :40:00.our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course
:40:01. > :40:14.on integration and making sure people get a job, and also
:40:15. > :40:17.on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for
:40:18. > :40:19.eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big
:40:20. > :40:23.tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am
:40:24. > :40:24.grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.
:40:25. > :40:27.It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:40:28. > :40:29.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:40:30. > :40:45.the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat
:40:46. > :40:49.Council tax is on the rise but we'll still face cuts to services
:40:50. > :40:54.Councils here say they're getting a raw deal from the Government.
:40:55. > :40:56.Nottingham has received nothing, Derby has received nothing,
:40:57. > :41:01.And the campaign to fight tooth decay in children
:41:02. > :41:03.moves into the classroom, where some are already
:41:04. > :41:07.You've got your big teeth and if you eat too much
:41:08. > :41:10.sugar and they fall out, you will not get any more.
:41:11. > :41:18.David Tredinnick is the Conservative MP for Bosworth and Vernon Coaker
:41:19. > :41:27.First, let's get your reaction to this week's by-elections...
:41:28. > :41:29.Labour, of course, holding on in Stoke-on-Trent,
:41:30. > :41:31.beating off the Ukip challenge, but getting trounced
:41:32. > :41:33.in Copeland in Cumbria, losing a solid Labour seat
:41:34. > :41:43.So, Vernon Coaker, the East Midlands Labour Party did
:41:44. > :41:45.play a major role in campaigning in Stoke-on-Trent, hardly a big
:41:46. > :41:51.As far as Stoke is concerned, it was really important
:41:52. > :41:58.for the Labour Party to have defeated Ukip.
:41:59. > :42:03.We have heard a lot from Ukip and Paul Nuttall in particular about the
:42:04. > :42:07.way in which they were going to become the true representatives of
:42:08. > :42:10.the working class, coming to the Midlands and the North of England,
:42:11. > :42:14.to the traditional Labour seats, and it will go into us there. We have
:42:15. > :42:19.the leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall, going to one of the biggest
:42:20. > :42:24.majorities for Brexit, in the whole of the country, let alone the East
:42:25. > :42:29.Midlands, and he loses. He perhaps is not done yet. Perhaps, but he is
:42:30. > :42:34.in Stoke. He thought he was going to win. Not a good result in Copeland.
:42:35. > :42:38.You were campaigning with Jeremy Corbyn Tom Stalker, that cannot have
:42:39. > :42:42.been easy given that you resign from his cabinet. He is the leader of the
:42:43. > :42:46.party, he was elected. You campaign with the leader of the party. We
:42:47. > :42:50.campaigned hard in ten seam-mac. We made sure people were aware of our
:42:51. > :42:54.for some of the things he had said for some of the things he had said
:42:55. > :42:58.that he wanted. David, I detect some that he wanted. David, I detect some
:42:59. > :43:02.quiet satisfaction amongst conservatives. But perhaps the
:43:03. > :43:05.Tredinnick shows that they will be Tredinnick shows that they will be
:43:06. > :43:11.harder to defeat than expected. If Ukip had put up a better candidate,
:43:12. > :43:16.the Conservatives would have one Stoke because the vote would have
:43:17. > :43:20.held up. It was only because Ukip were unable to get at the labour
:43:21. > :43:27.vote that they did not win. In Copeland, we had the best result
:43:28. > :43:32.since 1878, and not only that, we have strengthened the Prime
:43:33. > :43:35.Minister's can immeasurably in negotiations in Brexit, so they are
:43:36. > :43:40.international ramifications here, in which he is not the strongest leader
:43:41. > :43:43.in Europe because she had demanded that no Prime Minister has had for
:43:44. > :43:48.100 years, and that is winning a seat from the opposition when in
:43:49. > :43:52.government. Vernon, there will be a lot of browbeating after the result
:43:53. > :43:57.in Copeland. Jon Ashworth on Twitter said this was so disappointing, a
:43:58. > :44:00.bit of an understatement. Lifelong Labour supporters turning their back
:44:01. > :44:04.on the party after more than 80 years. It would be ridiculous to say
:44:05. > :44:11.it was anything other than a bad result for Labour in Copeland. It
:44:12. > :44:15.was a bad result but a good local candidate and campaign but in the
:44:16. > :44:19.end we lost the vote. Was that down to Jeremy Corbyn? There was an issue
:44:20. > :44:23.around nuclear power and our support for that although we tried to
:44:24. > :44:26.reassure people about that. We have to think clearly long and hard about
:44:27. > :44:31.the way in which we will respond to that defeat and how we persuade
:44:32. > :44:34.people that we might have some of the answers to the problems.
:44:35. > :44:37.Certainly before the elections any month of May, not long to go till
:44:38. > :44:41.then. Next, the amount we pay to our local
:44:42. > :44:45.councils is set to rise, but local authorities
:44:46. > :44:46.are still warning we'll Councils have been working
:44:47. > :44:49.out their tax charges for the coming year,
:44:50. > :44:51.with increases of up But they warn they still don't
:44:52. > :44:55.have enough money to pay Our political reporters have been
:44:56. > :45:00.taking a look at what it means How we care for the elderly
:45:01. > :45:04.and the disabled has become the major issue to affect
:45:05. > :45:07.all of our councils. In Nottingham, adult social care
:45:08. > :45:09.accounts for around one third of the city's spending and some
:45:10. > :45:12.of that goes to pay for centres like this,
:45:13. > :45:14.the Martin Jackaman Centre in Aspley that provides specialist care
:45:15. > :45:16.for those with physical Labour-controlled Nottingham City
:45:17. > :45:18.Council have criticised the Government for what they have
:45:19. > :45:23.said are unfair cuts that mean disadvantaged areas like Nottingham
:45:24. > :45:25.are missing out The poorer the area,
:45:26. > :45:29.the more that they have lost. The poorest areas in this country,
:45:30. > :45:31.and Nottingham is the 20th, It is a scandal that
:45:32. > :45:37.has yet to be told. There is billions and billions
:45:38. > :45:40.being transferred from the North And it is a similar picture
:45:41. > :45:44.in the county with Labour leader Alan Rhodes writing
:45:45. > :45:46.to the Chancellor last week, urging him to address
:45:47. > :45:48.what he called the funding crisis Nottinghamshire County Council has
:45:49. > :45:55.lost around ?200 million in funding since 2010 and are proposing
:45:56. > :45:58.a rising council tax In Nottingham City it will be
:45:59. > :46:05.an extra ?1 a week on the average council tax bill to make up
:46:06. > :46:08.for losing ?82 million in funding Derby City Council has a budget
:46:09. > :46:17.shortfall of ?14 million this year, so it is cutting back
:46:18. > :46:19.on non-statutory services, that is the things that it does
:46:20. > :46:23.not have to do by law, and instead is asking
:46:24. > :46:25.for the public's help to Now, charities and individuals
:46:26. > :46:30.will be able to apply for that funding to pay for,
:46:31. > :46:32.well, pretty much anything, from self-defence classes to flower
:46:33. > :46:36.beds and help for the homeless. The project is costing ?45,000
:46:37. > :46:43.to set up and the council is putting in ?60,000 of funding to help
:46:44. > :46:46.those appeals along. Now, there is only one problem
:46:47. > :46:49.with the whole crowdfunding Who fancies putting their hands
:46:50. > :46:58.into their pockets? Now over to Tim Parker
:46:59. > :47:04.for the picture in Leicestershire. Here in Leicester and
:47:05. > :47:06.Leicestershire, we have already seen some big budget cuts
:47:07. > :47:08.across community services. Let us take a look at
:47:09. > :47:11.some of the figures. In Leicestershire,
:47:12. > :47:13.they have made budget cuts They need to save a further
:47:14. > :47:19.?66 million by 2020, of which ?23 million has yet
:47:20. > :47:23.to be identified. Leicester City Council has said it
:47:24. > :47:26.has had to make budget cuts of ?100 million
:47:27. > :47:31.between 2010 and 2016. Its target was to save a further
:47:32. > :47:34.?55 million by 2020. ?22 million of this has
:47:35. > :47:39.yet to be identified. Here, in Leicestershire,
:47:40. > :47:43.we have already seen the closure and demolition of the mining museum
:47:44. > :47:48.in Snibston, and our smallest libraries in the county
:47:49. > :47:50.are being handed over to communities to run, like this one in Thurmaston,
:47:51. > :47:54.and a couple of the volunteers Carole, firstly, do you think
:47:55. > :48:00.it is right that local people should No, the council should run it,
:48:01. > :48:07.but as there is not the money available to run it,
:48:08. > :48:09.then the only way we can do Well, Joe is 16, you are
:48:10. > :48:14.volunteering here as well, why? This is for my Duke
:48:15. > :48:17.of Edinburgh Silver Award and I want to help towards the local
:48:18. > :48:21.community and to complete my award. A couple of volunteers
:48:22. > :48:23.here in Thurmaston. All 39 of Leicestershire's smallest
:48:24. > :48:25.libraries will be handed over to their local communities
:48:26. > :48:28.in the next few months. This is Tim Parker,
:48:29. > :48:40.in Leicestershire. So, in Leicestershire, David, the
:48:41. > :48:43.conservative cancer, as you well know, one of the lowest funded per
:48:44. > :48:51.head in the whole of the country, they are regularly lobbying MPs like
:48:52. > :48:55.yourself. Are you listening? -- Conservative centre. Yes, because we
:48:56. > :49:00.will see changes to the funding of councils, a fairer system. Better to
:49:01. > :49:05.get resources. How will it be fair? The money will be Bicester we did
:49:06. > :49:08.more in accordance with the EU and we will look at the rural parts.
:49:09. > :49:14.There will be improvements. One of the things that has happened is
:49:15. > :49:17.increased funding for social care. As we go through the transition,
:49:18. > :49:24.we'll be bring social care and the health budgets together under the
:49:25. > :49:27.auspices of the organisations. It is not all bad news. As far as
:49:28. > :49:35.volunteers are concerned, it is surely better to let the community
:49:36. > :49:40.run them. They do not have much choice as we heard. The Deputy
:49:41. > :49:42.Leader of Nottingham City Council, Mr Chapman, he has said that they
:49:43. > :49:45.are getting no help from the government to cope with the cuts
:49:46. > :49:52.while better of councils done in the south of the country are. He has
:49:53. > :49:55.described that as a national scandal. He might tell you that but
:49:56. > :49:58.he is wrong. There will be a fairer distribution of raids across the
:49:59. > :50:03.country. At the moment, some of the major cities get twice as much money
:50:04. > :50:07.as the individual as people in my constituency, for example, and have
:50:08. > :50:12.areas of deprivation just as they exist in Birmingham. So you do not
:50:13. > :50:18.feel that areas are missing out? The East Midlands will have a fairer
:50:19. > :50:24.distribution system in the future. It does not matter who you talk to,
:50:25. > :50:27.it is the local government Association, the Institute for
:50:28. > :50:31.Fiscal Studies or any of the local bodies, P Dettori, labour, whatever,
:50:32. > :50:36.and Mr Darby, whatever, they all recognise that the system is unfair,
:50:37. > :50:40.we are unfairly funded. The south gets better funding than we do and
:50:41. > :50:44.even under the fairer funding images that David talks about, that will
:50:45. > :50:47.not change, they will still be a discrepancy and it will mean that
:50:48. > :50:50.people in Leicestershire, in Nottinghamshire, in Derbyshire, in
:50:51. > :50:54.the cities, they will receive a worse level of service. They will
:50:55. > :50:59.not get the level of funding needed, whether it is social care, housing,
:51:00. > :51:02.and so on. The idea that we have community volunteers looking after
:51:03. > :51:05.libraries because it is a good policy decision, it has nothing to
:51:06. > :51:13.do with policy, it is the only be to ensure that they remain open. That
:51:14. > :51:16.is the truth, David, is it not? There is a change, younger people
:51:17. > :51:22.are not going to libraries, they are going online. They cannot go to them
:51:23. > :51:25.if they are not open. There is a decline in demand for libraries, but
:51:26. > :51:32.I very much welcome the idea of local people helping to save local
:51:33. > :51:35.libraries when they are targets for reductions to funding. But David,
:51:36. > :51:40.they are only doing that because it will close. Everybody wants
:51:41. > :51:44.volunteering but it is to supplement services, not as a replacement for
:51:45. > :51:47.essential services, surely? If you have got a county funded library and
:51:48. > :51:50.there are pressures on the budget, surely it is better that local
:51:51. > :51:57.people who love books help in the libraries rather than see them
:51:58. > :52:00.close? Should the Labour Party be going along with these cuts in the
:52:01. > :52:04.first place? We have to balance the budget, it is illegal not to do so.
:52:05. > :52:10.No one is suggesting anyone should act in an illegal manner. But labour
:52:11. > :52:15.councils are doing what they can to protect the people affected by the
:52:16. > :52:19.worst of this Tory austerity. It has been suggested that money should be
:52:20. > :52:23.taken out of the reserves right now to lessen the cuts. The council is
:52:24. > :52:28.breaking into ?70 million but the Tories have said they could take
:52:29. > :52:33.more, is that wise to suggest? There are always choices to make but the
:52:34. > :52:37.reality is that if you look at each of the hospitals, for example, in
:52:38. > :52:41.our region. Just did not University Hospital, there are people on
:52:42. > :52:47.average, 52 people per day, it cannot get out of hospital because
:52:48. > :52:50.there is not social care support mechanisms available to them. It is
:52:51. > :52:53.a regional and national scandal and the governments son around and tell
:52:54. > :52:57.you that it has provided some money, councils have put up their attacks
:52:58. > :53:00.there is a crisis. Social care is there is a crisis. Social care is
:53:01. > :53:02.one of the biggest concern is one of the biggest concerns is that we're
:53:03. > :53:07.facing. The Health and Social Care Act was taken to in the last
:53:08. > :53:10.Parliament and I am a member of the Health Committee which I chair from
:53:11. > :53:14.time to time. It brings together health and social care. We have a
:53:15. > :53:18.huge increase in demand for services because people are living longer and
:53:19. > :53:22.they require more care. One of the things we must do is to encourage
:53:23. > :53:28.people to look after themselves. They can do that by not getting
:53:29. > :53:33.overweight, by taking exercise, there must be education and we do
:53:34. > :53:36.not have that. If there are other systems such as homoeopathic
:53:37. > :53:38.medicine that I have supported over the years where you can keep a
:53:39. > :53:42.of remedies at home, try treating of remedies at home, try treating
:53:43. > :53:47.yourself before you even get to your doctor. But what would that solve?
:53:48. > :53:51.One of the problems is demand or daughters which continues to rise.
:53:52. > :53:55.We do not have a social care crisis because the elderly are overweight!
:53:56. > :53:59.We have a social care crisis because there is a shortage of funding.
:54:00. > :54:02.There are people medical are set to be discharged from hospital to go
:54:03. > :54:06.into the community and they cannot go because there is not a care home
:54:07. > :54:10.place or a social care support package available. There is a crisis
:54:11. > :54:26.in our social care. It is a problem with funding,
:54:27. > :54:28.not that people are overweight. People should be looking after
:54:29. > :54:31.themselves. We must have responsibility to do that as well.
:54:32. > :54:33.Overweight people have a greater likelihood of heart attacks and
:54:34. > :54:36.diabetes, that means they will spend more time in hospital and harder to
:54:37. > :54:38.discharge. Some would say that your government is simply passing the
:54:39. > :54:40.buck with these austerity cuts and beating the council do your dirty
:54:41. > :54:43.work for them. You have to have a budget, it is not just councils. One
:54:44. > :54:48.of the reasons there have been some reductions in supply of money for
:54:49. > :54:53.local government to make good the deficit which the Labour Party left
:54:54. > :55:00.us with when they left power. To have a successful economy with low
:55:01. > :55:02.taxes and businesses that are thriving, you have to have some
:55:03. > :55:04.control over government expenditure, you cannot just write checks for
:55:05. > :55:09.everything. OK. There's a new campaign
:55:10. > :55:12.in East Midlands schools to tackle Dental teams have found that some
:55:13. > :55:16.children in deprived parts of the region don't even
:55:17. > :55:18.own a toothbrush and children younger than ten have needed surgery
:55:19. > :55:21.to have their teeth removed. Here's our political
:55:22. > :55:22.editor, Tony Roe. At school today, these
:55:23. > :55:27.children in Nottingham are learning a lesson in life,
:55:28. > :55:30.it is a lesson not to Right, so we are just doing
:55:31. > :55:34.a check-up for you today, Sean. You've got your big teeth
:55:35. > :55:37.and if you eat too much sugar and they fall out,
:55:38. > :55:40.you will not get any more. And you would have
:55:41. > :55:42.to have fake teeth. Southwark Primary is one of three
:55:43. > :55:48.schools in Nottingham being used as a pilot for what is called
:55:49. > :55:52.the Teeth Team. It is a scheme developed in Hull,
:55:53. > :55:55.where the problem of decaying children's teeth is the worst
:55:56. > :55:59.in the country. You get multiple extractions under
:56:00. > :56:03.general anaesthetic, which is obviously not a good thing
:56:04. > :56:06.to put a child under. They can have problems
:56:07. > :56:07.with speech... Obviously, they come to school
:56:08. > :56:14.in pain, which is not good. They have time off school due
:56:15. > :56:17.to the pain and dental visits. Let us have a look with the magic
:56:18. > :56:21.mirror, open wide... The Nottingham North MP Graham Allen
:56:22. > :56:23.fears his city is not that far behind Hull,
:56:24. > :56:25.which is why he asked What they found in their work
:56:26. > :56:29.shocks the assumptions Some children do not even
:56:30. > :56:34.have a toothbrush at home, so what we're finding
:56:35. > :56:36.is that they are taking these skills home with them and then hoping
:56:37. > :56:39.that they carry on that message and that routine for
:56:40. > :56:41.the rest of their lives. A combination of sugary drinks,
:56:42. > :56:46.poor diet and lack of brushing means that tooth decay is the main reason
:56:47. > :56:49.why five to nine-year-olds It costs the health service ?30
:56:50. > :56:53.million each year to treat children, In the most deprived parts
:56:54. > :57:02.of the East Midlands, there are examples of some children
:57:03. > :57:05.who have had to have They want to expand the Teeth Team
:57:06. > :57:12.project into every primary school. They say it will save money,
:57:13. > :57:15.but more important than that, Back at Southwark Primary,
:57:16. > :57:26.they value the lessons and the input The feedback from parents has
:57:27. > :57:30.been extremely positive and also from our pupils
:57:31. > :57:33.and teachers as well. So we are delighted
:57:34. > :57:35.with the success. Everything we can do to promote
:57:36. > :57:39.those healthy lifelong habits is a positive benefit
:57:40. > :57:42.to all of our community. A child with healthy teeth means
:57:43. > :57:45.that they do not have pain from the aching and they can
:57:46. > :57:49.take lessons home. What we're hoping is to instil that
:57:50. > :57:52.good routine that they will take with them and obviously
:57:53. > :57:54.teach their children What will also help, according
:57:55. > :57:57.to the dental professionals, is adding fluoride to the water
:57:58. > :57:59.supplies, especially The local MP is pressing
:58:00. > :58:12.for that to happen. It is truly shocking, isn't it, to
:58:13. > :58:17.hear that children younger than ten have already lost some of their
:58:18. > :58:21.adult teeth? Why can this be happening in the 21st century? This
:58:22. > :58:23.government is introducing a sugar tax to bear down on the amount of
:58:24. > :58:28.sugar in drinks, that is really important. We have clearly got a
:58:29. > :58:30.problem that parents are not taking their children to dentists and there
:58:31. > :58:38.might have to be a requirement that might have to be a requirement that
:58:39. > :58:40.they do so. They might have to be legislation to make this happen. We
:58:41. > :58:44.cannot have a situation where children was a lot of teeth. It is
:58:45. > :58:49.almost a form of abuse. Are you being -- are you blaming the parents
:58:50. > :58:52.or the sugary drinks? Both. Parents must understand they have an
:58:53. > :58:57.obligation to look after the health of their children. That is fair
:58:58. > :59:04.enough, isn't it, Vernon Coaker? It is obvious to say that parents have
:59:05. > :59:06.an obligation to look after their children and clearly they must
:59:07. > :59:11.ensure that children clean their teeth. But some parents cannot
:59:12. > :59:16.access an NHS dentist and their teeth fall the date, it is the for
:59:17. > :59:22.more likely that their children's teeth might follow suit. That could
:59:23. > :59:27.be true and we might have to look at the position of school dentists and
:59:28. > :59:32.so on. But there is an issue around parents have a responsibility.
:59:33. > :59:35.Clearly, as they would have said, I am not sure about meeting a legal
:59:36. > :59:39.requirement but there are issues around sugar and payments, it is
:59:40. > :59:42.unacceptable and we are not doing well enough at the present time. We
:59:43. > :59:47.will hear more about the sugar tax in the upcoming budget in March,
:59:48. > :59:54.what more can you tell us? Well, I do not know what will be in the
:59:55. > :59:57.budget, but I know that companies are going to pay more tax if there
:59:58. > :00:00.is no sugar. The number of dentists, that issue was dealt with about a
:00:01. > :00:05.decade ago, dentists increased through training. That is not the
:00:06. > :00:08.problem that it used to be but we have to find those children that are
:00:09. > :00:14.suffering and it does mean that people have got to take more
:00:15. > :00:17.responsibility for their own lives, their health, obesity and the lives
:00:18. > :00:21.of their children. We need a new culture which is almost like the old
:00:22. > :00:24.culture, where there was more self-help rather than constantly
:00:25. > :00:28.asking others to solve problems, constantly going to the doctor went
:00:29. > :00:34.for simple complaints they could have been treated by other remedies
:00:35. > :00:38.at home. I have quoted homoeopathic medicine, try it out. If it is
:00:39. > :00:45.serious, go to the doctor, but if not, do not waste their time. Would
:00:46. > :00:53.schools across the country? What, schools across the country? What,
:00:54. > :00:59.fluoride is in? -- what the use of fluoride? No, the idea of a Teeth
:01:00. > :01:05.Team going into schools and helping them? Absolutely. Try to make it
:01:06. > :01:08.easier for schools and parents, toothbrushes are incredibly cheap.
:01:09. > :01:12.But there must be a demand that we do not let these children fall into
:01:13. > :01:18.a state where it cost the health service a fortune. Would the Labour
:01:19. > :01:22.Party support a sugar tax? We are willing to explore it, it would
:01:23. > :01:26.depend how it is done, but something clearly needs to be done and a sugar
:01:27. > :01:34.tax is one option for sugary drinks and so on. I think that the example
:01:35. > :01:40.used at that school where that school dental project, and not sure
:01:41. > :01:48.what it was called. The Teeth Team. That is correct. It was expanded and
:01:49. > :01:54.spread out, the cost in the short term will be better than the
:01:55. > :01:58.long-term damage. So you would be supportive of that, more programmes
:01:59. > :02:02.like that across the country? What about the use of fluoride, is that
:02:03. > :02:08.the answer, yes or no? Nottingham is not the only place to have a problem
:02:09. > :02:15.with bad teeth. Yes, the use of fluoride is one possibility. There
:02:16. > :02:16.is some controversy. I am in favour. Thank you very much.
:02:17. > :02:19.Time now for a round-up of some of the other political stories
:02:20. > :02:26.The National Union of Teachers in Leicestershire wants parents
:02:27. > :02:28.to lobby MPs over cuts to school funding.
:02:29. > :02:32.It says it could mean redundancies for teachers and support staff.
:02:33. > :02:34.The Government has said its new funding formula
:02:35. > :02:39.Firms in the East Midlands are calling for an overhaul
:02:40. > :02:43.The East Midlands Chamber says the system is broken and wants
:02:44. > :02:45.a scheme linked to a company's ability to pay rather
:02:46. > :02:51.The Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt wants a review of the overnight
:02:52. > :02:55.closure of A services at Grantham Hospital.
:02:56. > :02:58.Three MPs, including Grantham's Nick Boles,
:02:59. > :03:01.who is being treated for cancer, have met the Prime Minister
:03:02. > :03:04.The Nottingham by-election veteran David Bishop,
:03:05. > :03:07.better known as Bus Pass Elvis, is retiring from politics
:03:08. > :03:14.But he said he is reserving the right to return and the name
:03:15. > :03:16.is already registered with the Electoral Commission.
:03:17. > :03:18.Elvis And The Yeti Himalayan Preservation Party -
:03:19. > :03:31.That's the Sunday Politics in the East Midlands,
:03:32. > :03:33.thanks to Vernon Coaker and David Tredinnick.
:03:34. > :03:35.Next week Edward Argar and Willy Bach will be here.
:03:36. > :03:57.Welcome back. Article 50, which triggers the beginning of Britain
:03:58. > :04:01.leaving the European Union and start negotiations, is winding its way
:04:02. > :04:05.through the Lords in this coming week. Tarzan has made an
:04:06. > :04:12.intervention, let's just see the headline from the Mail on Sunday.
:04:13. > :04:17.Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine, my fightback starts here, he is
:04:18. > :04:20.going to defy Theresa May. I divide one Prime Minister over the poll
:04:21. > :04:25.tax, I'm ready to defy this one in the Lords over Brexit. There we go,
:04:26. > :04:30.that's going to happen this week. We will see how far he gets. I don't
:04:31. > :04:34.think he will get very far, I don't think Loyalist Tory MPs and
:04:35. > :04:40.Brexiteers are quaking in their boots at the prospect of a rebellion
:04:41. > :04:44.led by Michael Heseltine. I sense that many Tory MPs are already
:04:45. > :04:49.moving on to the next question about Brexit, and the discussion over how
:04:50. > :04:54.much it will cost us to come out. The fact they are already debating
:04:55. > :04:59.that suggests to me they feel things will go fairly smoothly in terms of
:05:00. > :05:04.the legislation. When I spoke to the Labour leader in the Lords last week
:05:05. > :05:07.on the daily politics, she said she was going to push hard for the kind
:05:08. > :05:16.of amendments Lord has all-time is talking about and they would bring
:05:17. > :05:20.that back to the Commons. But if the Commons pinged it back to the Lords
:05:21. > :05:26.with the amendments taken out, she made it clear that was the end of
:05:27. > :05:31.it. Is that right? That's about right. This is probably really a
:05:32. > :05:36.large destruction. There will be to micro issues that come up in the
:05:37. > :05:41.Lords, one is on the future of EU nationals, that could be voted on as
:05:42. > :05:45.soon as this Wednesday, and then the main vote in the Lords on a week on
:05:46. > :05:50.Tuesday, when there is this question of what sort of vote will MPs and
:05:51. > :05:53.peers get at the end of the Brexit process and that is what has
:05:54. > :05:58.all-time is talking about. He wants to make sure there are guarantees in
:05:59. > :06:02.place. The kind of things peers are looking for are pretty moderate and
:06:03. > :06:08.the Government have hinted they could deliver on both of them
:06:09. > :06:12.already. But they are still not prepared... Amber Rudd said they
:06:13. > :06:17.were not prepared... They may say yes we are going to do that but they
:06:18. > :06:21.won't allow whatever that is to be enshrined in the legislation. The
:06:22. > :06:25.question is whether we think this is dancing on the head of a pin. The
:06:26. > :06:28.Government have already promised something in the House of Commons,
:06:29. > :06:33.but will they write it down, I don't think that's the biggest problem in
:06:34. > :06:37.the world. In a sense this is a great magicians trick by Theresa May
:06:38. > :06:43.because it is not the most important thing. The most important thing in
:06:44. > :06:46.Brexit is going on in those committees behind closed doors when
:06:47. > :06:50.they are trying to work out what the next migration system is for Britain
:06:51. > :06:53.and there are some interesting, indeed toxic proposals, but at the
:06:54. > :06:58.moment Downing Street are happy to let us talk about the constitutional
:06:59. > :07:04.propriety of what MPs are doing over the next eight days. It seems to me
:07:05. > :07:08.the irony is that if we had a second chamber that can claim some kind of
:07:09. > :07:13.democratic legitimacy, which the one we have cannot, it would be able to
:07:14. > :07:17.cause the Government more trouble on this, it would be more robust.
:07:18. > :07:26.Absolutely. I saw the interview we did with the Labour Leader of the
:07:27. > :07:30.Lords, they are very conscious, of the fact they are not elected and
:07:31. > :07:34.have limited powers. She was clear to you they would not impede the
:07:35. > :07:38.timetable for triggering Article 50 so we might get a bit of theatre,
:07:39. > :07:45.Michael Heseltine might deliver a brilliant speech. It is interesting
:07:46. > :07:49.that Euroscepticism gun under Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party
:07:50. > :07:53.but two offer senior ministers Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the
:07:54. > :07:57.most prominent opponents now but they will change nothing at this
:07:58. > :08:02.point. She will have the space to trigger Article 50 within her
:08:03. > :08:04.timetable. Let's move on. Let me show you a picture tweeted by Nigel
:08:05. > :08:14.Farage. That is Nigel Farage and a small
:08:15. > :08:19.group of people having dinner, and within that small group of people is
:08:20. > :08:23.the president of the United States, and it was taken in the last couple
:08:24. > :08:29.of days. This would suggest that if he can command that amount of the
:08:30. > :08:33.President's time in a small group of people, then he's actually rather
:08:34. > :08:38.close to the president. Make no mistake about it, Nigel Farage is
:08:39. > :08:45.now to and fro Washington more regularly than perhaps he is here.
:08:46. > :08:51.Hopefully that LBC programme is recorded over in the state. He's not
:08:52. > :08:54.only close to the president but to a series of people within the
:08:55. > :08:59.administration. That relationship there is a remarkable one and one to
:09:00. > :09:04.keep an eye on. Will the main government be tempted to tap into
:09:05. > :09:10.that relationship at any time or is it just seething with anger? You can
:09:11. > :09:16.feel a ripple of discontentment over this. We are in the middle of
:09:17. > :09:20.negotiating the state visit and the sort of pomp and circumstance and
:09:21. > :09:24.what kind of greeting Britain should give Donald Trump when he comes over
:09:25. > :09:28.later in the year. There is a great deal of neurotic thought going into
:09:29. > :09:31.what that should look like, but one of the most interesting things about
:09:32. > :09:35.our relationship with Donald Trump is that there is a nervousness among
:09:36. > :09:40.some Cabinet ministers that we are being seen to go too far, too fast
:09:41. > :09:43.with the prospect of a trade deal. Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet
:09:44. > :09:48.ministers, they worry we won't get a very good trade deal with the US and
:09:49. > :09:53.we are tolerably placing a lot of stalled by it. When we see the kind
:09:54. > :10:01.of deal they want to pitch with us there might be some pulling back and
:10:02. > :10:04.that could be an awkward moment in terms of our relationship, and no
:10:05. > :10:09.doubt Nigel at that term -- at that point will accuse the UK of doing
:10:10. > :10:17.the dirty on Donald Trump. If there was a deal, would they get it
:10:18. > :10:21.through the House of Commons? Nigel Farage is having dinner with the
:10:22. > :10:25.president, not bad as a kind of lifestyle but he's politically
:10:26. > :10:29.rootless, he won't be an MEP much longer so if you look at where is
:10:30. > :10:33.his political base to build on this great time he's having, there is
:10:34. > :10:36.one. Given that there is one I think he's just having a great time and it
:10:37. > :10:47.isn't much more significant than that. No? There's a lot to be said
:10:48. > :10:56.for having a great time. You are having a great time. Let's just
:10:57. > :11:00.look, because of the dominance of the Government we kind of it nor
:11:01. > :11:06.there are problems piling up, only what, ten days with the Budget to
:11:07. > :11:12.go, piling up for Mrs May and her government. The business rates which
:11:13. > :11:16.has alarmed a lot of Tories, this disability cuts which are really a
:11:17. > :11:20.serious problem for the Government, and the desperate need for more
:11:21. > :11:24.money for social care. There are other issues, there are problems
:11:25. > :11:28.there and they involve spending money. Absolutely and some people
:11:29. > :11:32.argue Theresa May has only one Monday and that is to deliver Brexit
:11:33. > :11:39.but it is impossible as a Prime Minister to ignore everything else.
:11:40. > :11:42.And she doesn't want to either. The bubbling issue of social care and
:11:43. > :11:47.the NHS is the biggest single problem for her in the weeks and
:11:48. > :11:50.months ahead, she has got to come up with something. And Mr Hammond will
:11:51. > :11:56.have to loosen his belt a little bit. I think he will in relation to
:11:57. > :11:59.the NHS, he didn't mention it in the Autumn Statement, which was
:12:00. > :12:03.remarkable, and he cannot get away with not mentioning it this time. If
:12:04. > :12:07.he mentions it, it has to be in a positive context in some way or
:12:08. > :12:11.another and it is one example of many. She is both strong because she
:12:12. > :12:15.is so far ahead in the opinion polls, but this in tray is one of
:12:16. > :12:21.the most daunting a Prime Minister has faced in recent times I think.
:12:22. > :12:27.Here is what will happen on Budget day, money will be more money,
:12:28. > :12:33.magically found down the back of the Treasury sofa. The projections are
:12:34. > :12:37.that he has wiggle room of about 12 billion. But look at the bills,
:12:38. > :12:42.rebels involved in business rates suggest the Chancellor will have to
:12:43. > :12:46.throw up ?2 billion at that problem. 3.7 billion is the potential cost of
:12:47. > :12:50.this judgment about disability benefits. The Government will try to
:12:51. > :12:56.find different ways of satisfying it but who knows. It will not popular.
:12:57. > :12:59.I'm not sure they will throw money at the NHS, they want an interim
:13:00. > :13:04.settlement on social care which will alleviate pressure on the NHS but
:13:05. > :13:10.they feel... That's another couple of billion by the way. They feel in
:13:11. > :13:15.the Treasury that the NHS has not delivered on what Simon Stevens
:13:16. > :13:20.promised them. But here is the bigger problem for Philip Hammond,
:13:21. > :13:23.he has two This year and he thinks the second one in the autumn is more
:13:24. > :13:25.important because that is when people will feel the cost living
:13:26. > :13:27.squeeze. The Daily Politics is back at noon
:13:28. > :13:31.on BBC Two tomorrow. We'll be back here at
:13:32. > :13:34.the same time next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:35. > :13:40.it's the Sunday Politics.