:00:43. > :00:47.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:48. > :00:49.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:50. > :00:51.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:52. > :00:55.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:56. > :00:58.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:59. > :01:04.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:05. > :01:08.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:09. > :01:17.East Midlands, as to to and the party's
:01:18. > :01:20.East Midlands, as to to trigger Article 30, how ready is our region
:01:21. > :01:29.for life outside And with me - as always -
:01:30. > :01:32.the best and the brightest political panel in the business -
:01:33. > :01:35.Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting
:01:36. > :01:41.throughout the programme. First, it was the most
:01:42. > :01:43.deadly terrorist attack The attacker was shot dead trying
:01:44. > :01:47.to storm Parliament, but not before he'd murdered four
:01:48. > :01:49.people and injured 50 - one of those is still in a critical
:01:50. > :01:53.condition in hospital. His target was the very
:01:54. > :01:55.heart of our democracy, the Palace of Westminster,
:01:56. > :01:58.and he came within metres of the Prime Minister
:01:59. > :02:01.and senior Cabinet ministers. Without the quick actions
:02:02. > :02:05.of the Defence Secretary's close protection detail,
:02:06. > :02:06.fortuitously in the vicinity at the time, the outcome
:02:07. > :02:19.could have been even worse. Janan Ganesh it is four days now,
:02:20. > :02:25.getting on. What thoughts should we be having this weekend? First of
:02:26. > :02:29.all, Theresa May's Parliamentary response was exemplary. In many
:02:30. > :02:32.ways, the moment she arrived as prime minister and her six years as
:02:33. > :02:36.Home Secretary showed a positive way. No other serving politician is
:02:37. > :02:41.as steeped in counterterror and national security experience as she
:02:42. > :02:44.is and I think it showed. As to whether politics is going now, it
:02:45. > :02:50.looks like the Government will put more pressure on companies like
:02:51. > :02:54.Google and Facebook to monitor sensor radical content that flows
:02:55. > :02:58.through their channels, and I wonder whether beyond that the Government,
:02:59. > :03:03.not just our Government but around the world, will start to open this
:03:04. > :03:08.question of, during a terror attack, as it is unfolding, should there be
:03:09. > :03:12.restrictions on what can appear on social media? I was on Twitter at
:03:13. > :03:15.the time last week, during the attack, and people were posting
:03:16. > :03:20.things which may have been useful to the perpetrators, not on that
:03:21. > :03:24.occasion but future occasions. Should there be restrictions on what
:03:25. > :03:29.and how much people can post while an attack is unfolding? I think we
:03:30. > :03:33.have learned that this is like the weather, it is going to happen, it
:03:34. > :03:37.is going to happen all over the world and in every country and we
:03:38. > :03:43.deal with it well, we deal with it stoically, perhaps we are more used
:03:44. > :03:47.to it than some. We had the IRA for years, we know how to make personal
:03:48. > :03:52.risk assessments, how to know the chances of being in the wrong place
:03:53. > :03:58.at the wrong time are infinitesimal, so people in London didn't say, I'm
:03:59. > :04:01.not going to go to the centre of London today, everything carried on
:04:02. > :04:06.just the same. Because we know that the odds of it, being unlucky, are
:04:07. > :04:14.very small. Life is dangerous, this is another very small risk and it is
:04:15. > :04:17.the danger of being alive. I think from an Isis Islamist propaganda
:04:18. > :04:21.point of view, it showed just what a poor target London and the House of
:04:22. > :04:26.Commons is, and it is hard to imagine the emergency services and
:04:27. > :04:31.local people, international visitors, reacting much better than
:04:32. > :04:36.they did. And the fact that our Muslim mayor was able to make an
:04:37. > :04:40.appearance so quickly afterwards shows, I think, that we are not city
:04:41. > :04:44.riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. It couldn't really have been a
:04:45. > :04:46.better advertisement for the values that is attacking.
:04:47. > :04:49.OK, thank you for that. So, four days after the attack,
:04:50. > :04:51.what more do we know The police have made 11 arrests,
:04:52. > :04:55.but only one remains Here's Adam with the latest
:04:56. > :05:00.on the investigation. According to a police timeline,
:05:01. > :05:05.that's how long it took Khalid Masood to drive
:05:06. > :05:07.through a crowd on Westminster to crash his car into
:05:08. > :05:14.Parliament's perimeter... to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer,
:05:15. > :05:18.before being shot by a bodyguard The public are leaving tributes
:05:19. > :05:28.to the dead at Westminster. The family of PC Palmer released
:05:29. > :05:34.a statement saying: "We would like to express our
:05:35. > :05:36.gratitude to the people who were with Keith in his last
:05:37. > :05:39.moments and who were There was nothing more
:05:40. > :05:42.you could have done, you did your best and we are just
:05:43. > :05:45.grateful he was not alone." Investigators say Masood's motive
:05:46. > :05:48.may have gone to the grave with him. Officers think he acted alone,
:05:49. > :05:51.despite reports he spent a WhatsApp The Home Secretary now has
:05:52. > :05:58.such encrypted messaging There should be no place
:05:59. > :06:04.for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that
:06:05. > :06:06.organisations like WhatsApp, and there are plenty of others
:06:07. > :06:09.like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists
:06:10. > :06:12.to communicate with each other. It used to be that people
:06:13. > :06:16.would steam open envelopes or just listen in on phones when they wanted
:06:17. > :06:25.to find out what people were doing, legally, through warrantry,
:06:26. > :06:27.but in this situation we need to make sure
:06:28. > :06:29.that our intelligence services have the ability to get
:06:30. > :06:31.into situations like encrypted She will ask the tech industry
:06:32. > :06:35.to suggest solutions at a meeting this week,
:06:36. > :06:37.although she didn't rule out But for those caught up
:06:38. > :06:41.in the attack, perhaps it will be ..not the policy implications that
:06:42. > :06:49.will echo the loudest. We're joined now from the Hague
:06:50. > :06:51.by the Director of Europol, the European Police Agency,
:06:52. > :07:02.Rob Wainwright. What role has Europol played in the
:07:03. > :07:06.aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I can tell you we are actively
:07:07. > :07:10.supporting the investigation, because it is a live case I cannot
:07:11. > :07:14.of course go into the details, but to give you some context, Andrew,
:07:15. > :07:18.this is one of about 80 counterterrorist cases we have been
:07:19. > :07:22.supporting across Europe this year, using a platform to shed thousands
:07:23. > :07:26.of intelligence messages between the very large counterterrorist
:07:27. > :07:30.community in Europe, and also tracking flows of terrorist finance,
:07:31. > :07:34.illegal firearms, and monitoring this terrible propaganda online as
:07:35. > :07:41.well. All of that is being made available now to the Metropolitan
:07:42. > :07:44.Police in London for this case. Do we know if there is any European
:07:45. > :07:49.link to those who may have inspired or directed Khalid Massoud? That is
:07:50. > :07:52.an active part of the inquiry being led by Metropolitan Police and it is
:07:53. > :07:58.not for me to comment or speculate on that. There are links of course
:07:59. > :08:02.in terms of the profile of the attacker and the way in which he
:08:03. > :08:06.launched these terrible events in Westminster, and those that we've
:08:07. > :08:11.seen, for example, in the Berlin Christmas market last year and the
:08:12. > :08:15.attack in Nice in the summer of last year, clear similarities between the
:08:16. > :08:19.fact that the attackers involved have criminal background, somewhat
:08:20. > :08:26.dislocated from society, each of them using a hired or stolen vehicle
:08:27. > :08:30.to deliberately aim at pedestrians in a crowded place and using a
:08:31. > :08:34.secondary weapon, whether it is a gun or a knife. So we are seeing a
:08:35. > :08:37.trend, I think, of the kind of attacks across Europe in the last
:08:38. > :08:41.couple of years and some of that at least was played out unfortunately
:08:42. > :08:45.in Westminster this week as well. Mass and was known to the emergency
:08:46. > :08:49.services, so were many of those involved in the Brussels, Paris and
:08:50. > :08:54.Berlin attacks, so something is going wrong here, we are not
:08:55. > :08:59.completely across this, are we? Actually most attacks are being
:09:00. > :09:04.stopped. This was I think at least the 14th terrorist plot or attempted
:09:05. > :09:09.attack in Britain since 2013 and the only one that has got through, and
:09:10. > :09:14.that fits a picture of what we see in France last year, 17 attempted
:09:15. > :09:18.attacks that were stopped, for example. Unfortunately some of them
:09:19. > :09:22.get through. But people on the security services' Radar getting
:09:23. > :09:27.through, in Westminster, Brussels, Paris and Berlin. There is clearly
:09:28. > :09:34.something we are not doing that could stop that. Again, if you look
:09:35. > :09:38.at what happened in Berlin and at least the first indications from
:09:39. > :09:42.what police are saying in London, these are people that haven't really
:09:43. > :09:47.appeared on Baha'i target list of the authorities, they are on the
:09:48. > :09:51.edge at best of radicalised community -- on the high target
:09:52. > :09:54.list. When you are dealing with a dispersed community of thousands of
:09:55. > :09:59.radicalised, Senate radicalised individuals, it is very difficult to
:10:00. > :10:03.monitor them 24/7, very difficult when these people, almost out of the
:10:04. > :10:08.blue and carry out the attacks that they did. I think you have to find a
:10:09. > :10:12.sense of perspective here around the work and the pressures of the work
:10:13. > :10:16.and the difficult target choices that police and security authorities
:10:17. > :10:20.have to make around Europe. The Home Secretary here in London said this
:10:21. > :10:24.morning it is time to tackle apps like WhatsApp, which we believe
:10:25. > :10:28.Massoud was using, because they encrypt from end to end and it is
:10:29. > :10:32.difficult for the security services to know what is happening there.
:10:33. > :10:38.What do you say, are you up for that? Across the hundreds of cases
:10:39. > :10:42.we have supported in recent years there is no doubt that encryption,
:10:43. > :10:46.encrypted communications are becoming more and more prominent in
:10:47. > :10:50.the way terrorists communicate, more and more of a problem, therefore, a
:10:51. > :10:53.real challenge for investigators, and that the heart of this is a
:10:54. > :10:57.stark inconsistency between the ability of the police to lawfully
:10:58. > :11:02.intercept telephone calls, but not when those messages are exchanged
:11:03. > :11:07.via a social media messaging board, for example, and that is an
:11:08. > :11:10.inconsistency in society and we have to find a solution through
:11:11. > :11:14.appropriate legislation perhaps of these technologies and law
:11:15. > :11:21.enforcement agencies working in a more constructive way. So you back
:11:22. > :11:24.that? I agree that there is certainly a problem, absolutely. We
:11:25. > :11:34.know there was a problem, I'm trying to find out if you agree with the
:11:35. > :11:38.Home Secretary's solution? I agree certainly with her calls for changes
:11:39. > :11:41.to be made. What the legislative solution for that is of course for
:11:42. > :11:44.her and other lawmakers to decide but from my point of view, yes, I
:11:45. > :11:49.would agree something has to be done to make sure we can apply more
:11:50. > :11:54.consistent interception of communication in all parts of the
:11:55. > :11:56.way in which terrorists invade our lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol,
:11:57. > :11:57.thank you very much. Here with me in the studio now
:11:58. > :12:06.is the Leader of the House What did last week's attack tell us
:12:07. > :12:10.about the security of the Palace of Westminster? It told us that we are
:12:11. > :12:18.looked after by some very courageous, very professional police
:12:19. > :12:23.officers. There is clearly going to be a lessons learned with you, as
:12:24. > :12:27.you would expect after any incident of this kind. That will look very
:12:28. > :12:30.carefully at what worked well but also whether there are changes that
:12:31. > :12:36.need to be made, that is already under way. And that is being run by
:12:37. > :12:46.professionals, by the police and security director at Parliament...
:12:47. > :12:50.Palace authorities, we will get reports from the professionals,
:12:51. > :12:54.particularly our own Parliamentary security director, and just as
:12:55. > :12:57.security matters in parliament are kept under constant review, if there
:12:58. > :13:01.are changes that need to be made as a result, then they will need to be
:13:02. > :13:05.made. Let's look at some of the issues it has thrown up, as we get
:13:06. > :13:10.some distance from these appalling events when our first reaction was
:13:11. > :13:14.always the people who lose their lives and suffer, and then we start
:13:15. > :13:19.to become a bit more analytical. Is it true that the authorities removed
:13:20. > :13:22.armed guards from Cowbridge gate, where the attacker made his entry,
:13:23. > :13:30.because they looked to threatening for tourists? -- carriage gate. No,
:13:31. > :13:33.the idea that a protest from MPs led to operational changes simply not
:13:34. > :13:40.the case. What happened in the last couple of years is that the security
:13:41. > :13:43.arrangements in new Palace Yard have actually been strengthened, but I
:13:44. > :13:48.don't think your view was would expect me to go into a detailed
:13:49. > :13:52.commentary upon operational security matters. Why were the armed guards
:13:53. > :13:58.removed? There are armed guards at all times in the Palace of
:13:59. > :14:02.Westminster, it is a matter for the security authorities and in
:14:03. > :14:09.particular for the police and direct command of those officers to decide
:14:10. > :14:13.how they are best deployed. Is it because, as some from Scotland Yard
:14:14. > :14:18.sources have reported to the papers this morning, was it done because of
:14:19. > :14:21.staffing shortages? I'm in no position to comment on the details
:14:22. > :14:27.of the operation but my understanding is that the number of
:14:28. > :14:31.people available is what the police and the security authorities working
:14:32. > :14:36.together have decided to deploy and that they think was commensurate
:14:37. > :14:42.with the threat that we faced. Is it not of concern that as the incident
:14:43. > :14:46.unfolded the gates were left unguarded by armed and unarmed, they
:14:47. > :14:50.were just unguarded, so much so that, as it was going on, a career
:14:51. > :14:59.with a parcel on a moped at was able to drive through? -- up career. I
:15:00. > :15:02.think we will need to examine that case as part of looking into any
:15:03. > :15:06.lessons learned, but what I don't yet know, because the police are
:15:07. > :15:11.still interviewing everybody involved, witnesses and police
:15:12. > :15:17.officers involved, was exactly who was standing where in the vicinity
:15:18. > :15:21.of the murder at a particular time. We have seen pictures, the gates
:15:22. > :15:25.were unguarded as people were concentrating on what was happening
:15:26. > :15:31.to the police man and to the attacker, but the delivery man was
:15:32. > :15:34.able to come through the gates with a parcel?! You have seen a
:15:35. > :15:39.particular camera angle, I think it is important before we rush to
:15:40. > :15:45.judgment, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers, we need... We are
:15:46. > :15:48.trying to get to the bottom of it. To get to the bottom of it means we
:15:49. > :15:52.have to look at what all the witnesses and all the police
:15:53. > :15:56.officers involved say about what happened, and then there needs to be
:15:57. > :15:58.a decision taken about what if any changes need to be made in light of
:15:59. > :16:07.that. We know the attacker was stopped in
:16:08. > :16:13.his tracks by the Defence Secretary's bodyguard, where was the
:16:14. > :16:18.armed roving unit that had replaced the armed guard at the gate? I
:16:19. > :16:22.cannot comment on operation details but my understanding is there were
:16:23. > :16:27.other armed officers who would have been able to prevent the attacker
:16:28. > :16:33.from getting to the chamber, as has been alleged it would be possible
:16:34. > :16:38.for him to do. Were you aware that a so-called table top simulation,
:16:39. > :16:41.carried out by Scotland Yard and the Parliamentary authorities, ended
:16:42. > :16:51.with four terrorists in this simulation able to storm parliament
:16:52. > :16:57.and killed dozens of MPs? No, that is the first time that has been
:16:58. > :17:03.mentioned to me. You are the leader of the house. These matters are
:17:04. > :17:10.dealt with by security professionals who are involved, they are advised
:17:11. > :17:13.by a security committee, chaired by the Deputy Speaker, but we do not
:17:14. > :17:20.debate operational details in public. I'm not asking for a debate,
:17:21. > :17:24.I raise this because it's been reported because it's quite clear
:17:25. > :17:28.that after this simulation, it raised serious questions about the
:17:29. > :17:34.security of the palace. Actions should have followed. What I've said
:17:35. > :17:41.to you is that these matters are kept under constant review and that
:17:42. > :17:47.there are always changes made both in the deployment of individual
:17:48. > :17:51.officers and security guards of the palace staff and other plans to
:17:52. > :17:56.strengthen the hard security of the perimeter. If you look back at
:17:57. > :18:02.Hansard December last year, they was a plan already been brought forward
:18:03. > :18:10.to strengthen the security at carriage Gates, looking at questions
:18:11. > :18:18.of access. Will there be armed guards now? You need to look not
:18:19. > :18:23.just at armed guards, you need to look at the entirety of the security
:18:24. > :18:27.engagements including fencing. There's lots about the security we
:18:28. > :18:31.don't need to know and shouldn't know, but whether or not there are
:18:32. > :18:36.armed guards is something we will find out quite soon and I'm asking
:18:37. > :18:41.you if you think there should be. If you think the judgment is by our
:18:42. > :18:46.security experts that there need to be more armed guards in certain
:18:47. > :18:50.places, then they will be deployed accordingly, but I think before we
:18:51. > :18:55.rush to make conclusions about lessons to be learned from
:18:56. > :18:59.Wednesday's appalling attack, it is important the police are allowed to
:19:00. > :19:04.get on with completing the interview of witnesses and their own officers,
:19:05. > :19:08.and then that there is considered view taken about what changes might
:19:09. > :19:13.need to be made and then they will be implemented. Let me come onto the
:19:14. > :19:18.triggering of Article 50 that begins our negotiations to exit the
:19:19. > :19:22.European Union. It will happen on Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told
:19:23. > :19:27.Germany's most popular newspaper that he wants to make an example of
:19:28. > :19:34.the UK to make everyone realise it's not worth leaving the EU. What do
:19:35. > :19:38.you make of that? I think all sorts of things are said in advance of
:19:39. > :19:45.negotiations beginning. Clearly the commission will want to ensure the
:19:46. > :19:49.EU 27 holds together. As the Prime Minister has said, that is a British
:19:50. > :19:56.national interest as well. She has been very clear... What do you make
:19:57. > :19:59.of President Juncker's remark? It doesn't surprise me ahead of
:20:00. > :20:07.negotiations but I think if rational mutual interest is to the fore that
:20:08. > :20:12.it's perfectly possible for an agreement to be negotiated between
:20:13. > :20:17.the UK and our 27 friends and allies that addresses all of the issues
:20:18. > :20:21.from trade to security, police cooperation, foreign policy
:20:22. > :20:25.co-operation, works for all countries. The EU wants to agree a
:20:26. > :20:32.substantial divorce bill before it will even discuss any future UK EU
:20:33. > :20:38.relations, what do you make of that? Article 50 says the terms of exit
:20:39. > :20:43.need to be negotiated in the context of the kind of future relationship
:20:44. > :20:47.that's going to exist between the departing country and the remaining
:20:48. > :20:52.member states. It seems it is simply not possible to separate those two.
:20:53. > :20:55.Clearly there will need to be a discussion about joint assets and
:20:56. > :21:00.join liabilities but I think if we all keep to the fore the fact we
:21:01. > :21:04.will continue to be neighbours, we will continue to be essential allies
:21:05. > :21:18.and trading partners, then it is possible to come to a
:21:19. > :21:22.deal that works for all size. The question is do you agree the divorce
:21:23. > :21:25.bill first and then look at the subsequent relations we will have or
:21:26. > :21:30.do you do them both in parallel? Article 50 itself says they have to
:21:31. > :21:35.run together. Do you think they have to be done together or sequentially?
:21:36. > :21:39.I think it is impossible to separate the two but we will get into
:21:40. > :21:44.negotiations very soon and then once David Davis is sitting down with
:21:45. > :21:49.Michel Barnier and others and the national governments become involved
:21:50. > :21:53.too, then I hope we can make steady progress. An early deal about each
:21:54. > :21:57.other's citizens would be a good piece of low hanging fruit. Is the
:21:58. > :22:06.Government willing to pay a substantial divorce bill? The Prime
:22:07. > :22:11.Minister has said we don't rule out some kind of continuing payments,
:22:12. > :22:15.for example there may be EU programmes in the future in which we
:22:16. > :22:25.want to continue to participate. 50 billion? We don't envisage long-term
:22:26. > :22:30.payments of vast sums of money. So 50 billion isn't even the Government
:22:31. > :22:34.ballpark? You are tempting me to get into the detail of negotiation, that
:22:35. > :22:38.is something that will be starting very soon and let's leave it to the
:22:39. > :22:46.negotiations. During the referendum there was no talk from the Leave
:22:47. > :22:50.side about any question of separation bill, now the talk is of
:22:51. > :23:02.50 billion and I'm trying to find out if the British government thinks
:23:03. > :23:07.that of amount is on your radar. The Government is addressing the
:23:08. > :23:10.situation in which we now are, which is that we have a democratic
:23:11. > :23:15.obligation to implement the decision of the people in the referendum last
:23:16. > :23:19.year, and that we need to do that in a way that maximises the
:23:20. > :23:24.opportunity, the future prosperity and security of everybody in the UK.
:23:25. > :23:27.Let me try one more thing on the Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper
:23:28. > :23:32.will be published I think on Thursday, is that right? We haven't
:23:33. > :23:39.announced an exact date but you will see the white Paper very soon. Let's
:23:40. > :23:42.say it is Thursday, it will enshrine thousands of EU laws into UK law, it
:23:43. > :23:48.will use what's called Henry VIII powers, who of course was a
:23:49. > :23:55.dictator. Is this an attempt to avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny?
:23:56. > :24:01.No, we are repealing the Communities Act 1972, then put existing EU legal
:24:02. > :24:07.obligations on the UK statutory footing, so business know where they
:24:08. > :24:15.stand. Then, because a lot of those EU regulations will for example
:24:16. > :24:20.refer to the commission or another regulator, you need to substitute a
:24:21. > :24:25.UK authority in place so we need to have a power under secondary
:24:26. > :24:34.legislation to tweak the European regulators so it is coherent. This
:24:35. > :24:40.is weather Henry VIII powers come in. It is secondary legislation and
:24:41. > :24:44.the scope, the definition of those powers and when they can be used in
:24:45. > :24:49.what circumstances is something the parliament will have to approve in
:24:50. > :24:53.voting through the bill itself. And if it is as innocuous as you say,
:24:54. > :24:58.will you accept the proposal of the Lords for an enhanced scrutiny
:24:59. > :25:03.process on the secondary legislation? Neither the relevant
:25:04. > :25:07.committee of the House of Lords, the constitution committee, nor anyone
:25:08. > :25:12.else has seen the text of the bill and I think when it comes out, I
:25:13. > :25:18.hope that those members of the House of Lords will find that reassuring,
:25:19. > :25:23.but as I say the definition of those powers are something the parliament
:25:24. > :25:25.itself will take the final decision. David Lidington, thank you for being
:25:26. > :25:27.with us. So, Ukip has lost its only MP -
:25:28. > :25:30.Douglas Carswell. He defected to Ukip
:25:31. > :25:31.from the Conservative Party almost three years ago,
:25:32. > :25:33.but yesterday announced that he was quitting
:25:34. > :25:35.to sit as an independent. His surprise defection came
:25:36. > :25:37.in August 2014 saying, "Only Ukip can shake up that cosy
:25:38. > :25:40.little clique called Westminster". But his bromance with Nigel Farage
:25:41. > :25:44.turned sour when Mr Carswell criticised the so-called "shock
:25:45. > :25:46.and awful" strategy as Then, during the EU referendum
:25:47. > :25:51.campaign last year, Nigel Farage was part of the unofficial Leave.EU
:25:52. > :25:54.campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell opted to support the official
:25:55. > :26:00.Vote Leave campaign. Just last month, former
:26:01. > :26:02.Ukip leader Nigel Farage accused Douglas Carswell
:26:03. > :26:04.of thwarting his chances of being awarded a knighthood,
:26:05. > :26:06.writing that, Announcing his resignation
:26:07. > :26:14.on his website yesterday, Mr Carswell said, "I desperately
:26:15. > :26:16.wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that
:26:17. > :26:19.that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving
:26:20. > :26:22.Ukip." When Mr Carswell left
:26:23. > :26:24.the Conservative Party in 2014 he resigned as an MP,
:26:25. > :26:27.triggering a by-election. "I must seek permission
:26:28. > :26:30.from my boss," he said referring This time, though, Mr Carswell has
:26:31. > :26:39.said there will be no by-election. We're joined now from Salford
:26:40. > :26:50.by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. Welcome back to the programme. Are
:26:51. > :26:57.you happy to see the back of your only MP? Well, do you know, I'm
:26:58. > :27:03.always sad when people leave Ukip at a grass roots level or Parliamentary
:27:04. > :27:07.level, but I'm sad but I'm not surprised by this. There has been
:27:08. > :27:12.adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the past couple of years, his
:27:13. > :27:16.relationship with Nigel Farage certainly hasn't helped, and it is a
:27:17. > :27:20.hangover from the former regime which I inherited. I try to bring
:27:21. > :27:24.the party together, I thought I had done that for a few months but it
:27:25. > :27:28.seems now as if I was only papering over the cracks. Douglas has gone
:27:29. > :27:35.and I think we will move on and be a more unified party as a result. Did
:27:36. > :27:38.Douglas Carswell jump because he expected to be pushed out your
:27:39. > :27:42.national executive committee tomorrow? He came before the
:27:43. > :27:45.National executive committee to answer questions regarding issues
:27:46. > :27:50.that have come to the fore over the last couple of months. There was the
:27:51. > :27:56.knighthood issue, the issue surrounding the Thanet election and
:27:57. > :28:02.his comments in a book which came out regarding Brexit. So was he
:28:03. > :28:06.under suspicion? He was coming to answer these questions and they
:28:07. > :28:13.would have been difficult. So he did jump in your view? No, I'm not
:28:14. > :28:16.saying he would have been pushed out of the party but he would have faced
:28:17. > :28:25.difficult questions. What is clear is that a fissure had developed and
:28:26. > :28:30.I'm not surprised by him leaving the party. You have also lost Diane
:28:31. > :28:36.James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, you failed to win the Stoke by
:28:37. > :28:41.election, Mr Carswell is now a pundit on US television, Ukip now
:28:42. > :28:47.stands for the UK irrelevance party, doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday
:28:48. > :29:04.on 12%, membership continues to rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4
:29:05. > :29:09.million people voted for Ukip. Over the summer exciting things will be
:29:10. > :29:11.happening in the party, we will rewrite the constitution,
:29:12. > :29:16.restructure the party, it will have a new feel to it and we will be
:29:17. > :29:21.launching pretty much the post Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used
:29:22. > :29:26.to pay quite a lot of your bills, he said the current leadership, that
:29:27. > :29:29.would be you, couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding, another way
:29:30. > :29:36.of saying you are relevant, isn't it? I don't think that's fair. I've
:29:37. > :29:40.only been in the job since November the 28th, we have taken steps to
:29:41. > :29:44.restructure the party already, the party is on a sound financial
:29:45. > :29:49.footing, we won't have a problem money wise going forward. It is a
:29:50. > :29:54.party which can really unified, look forward to the post Brexit Iraq,
:29:55. > :29:58.tomorrow we are launching our Brexit test for the Prime Minister. If it
:29:59. > :30:04.wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have been a referendum and we wouldn't
:30:05. > :30:10.have Brexit. Every time you say you will unified, someone else leaves.
:30:11. > :30:14.Is Arron Banks still a member? No, not at this moment in time. He has
:30:15. > :30:19.been a generous donor in the past, he's done a great job of ensuring we
:30:20. > :30:24.get Brexit and I'm thankful for that but he isn't a member. He has just
:30:25. > :30:35.submitted an invoice of ?2000 for the use of call centres, will you
:30:36. > :30:39.pay that? No. That should be interesting to watch.
:30:40. > :30:43.In the aftermath of the Westminster attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News
:30:44. > :30:48.that it vindicates Donald Trump's extreme vetting of migrants. Since
:30:49. > :30:53.the attacker was born in Kent, like Nigel Farage, can you explain the
:30:54. > :30:57.relevance of the remark? I personally haven't supported Donald
:30:58. > :31:02.Trump's position on this, but what I will say, this is what Nigel has
:31:03. > :31:06.said as well, we have a problem within the Muslim community, it is a
:31:07. > :31:12.small number of people who hate the way we live... Can you explain the
:31:13. > :31:26.relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr Farage also made the point
:31:27. > :31:30.about multiculturalism being the problem as well and he is correct on
:31:31. > :31:32.that because we cannot have separate communities living separate lives
:31:33. > :31:34.and never integrating. How would extreme vetting of migrants help you
:31:35. > :31:37.track down a man who was born in Kent? In this case it wouldn't.
:31:38. > :31:40.Maybe in other cases it would. But, as I say, I'm not a supporter of
:31:41. > :31:44.Donald Trump's position on extreme vetting, never have been, so I'm the
:31:45. > :31:48.wrong person to ask the question too, Andrew. That has probably
:31:49. > :31:53.become clear in my efforts to get you to answer it. Let me as too,
:31:54. > :31:56.should there be a by-election in Clacton now? Douglas has called
:31:57. > :32:00.by-elections in the past when he has left a political party, I know
:32:01. > :32:06.certain people in Ukip are keen to go down this line, Douglas is always
:32:07. > :32:08.keen on recall and if 20% of people in his constituency want a
:32:09. > :32:15.by-election then maybe we should have won. Ukip will be opening
:32:16. > :32:20.nominations for Clacton very soon. Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have
:32:21. > :32:29.Douglas Carswell here in the studio. Why not call a by-election? I'm not
:32:30. > :32:31.switching parties. You are, you are becoming independent. There is a
:32:32. > :32:37.difference, I've not submitted myself to the whip up a new party,
:32:38. > :32:40.if I was, I would be obliged to trigger a by-election. If every time
:32:41. > :32:45.an MP in the House of Commons resigned the whip or lost the whip,
:32:46. > :32:49.far from actually strengthening the democracy against the party bosses,
:32:50. > :32:53.that would give those who ran parties and enormous power, so I'm
:32:54. > :32:58.being absolutely consistent here, I'm not joining a party. It is a
:32:59. > :33:04.change of status and Nigel Farage has just said he will write to every
:33:05. > :33:10.constituent in Clacton and he wants to try and get 20% of constituents
:33:11. > :33:15.to older by-election. We are going to testing, he says, write to every
:33:16. > :33:20.house in Clacton, find out if his constituents want a by-election, if
:33:21. > :33:22.20% do we will find out if Mr Carswell is honourable. I'm sure
:33:23. > :33:29.they will be delighted to hear from Nigel. There have been several
:33:30. > :33:32.by-elections when Nigel has had the opportunity to contact the
:33:33. > :33:39.electorate we did -- which did not always go to plan. If you got 20%,
:33:40. > :33:44.would you? Yesterday I sent an e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I
:33:45. > :33:48.have had a lot of responses back, overwhelmingly supported. Recently
:33:49. > :33:55.you said you were 100% Ukip, now you are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa
:33:56. > :34:00.May triggering article 50, we won, Andrew. You knew a few months ago
:34:01. > :34:04.she was going to do that. On June the 24th I had serious thought about
:34:05. > :34:08.making the move but I wanted to be absolutely certain that Article 50
:34:09. > :34:13.would be triggered and I think it is right. This is why ultimately Ukip
:34:14. > :34:15.exists, to get us out of the European Union. We should be
:34:16. > :34:21.cheerful instead of attacking one another, this is our moment, we made
:34:22. > :34:25.it happen. Did you try to sideline the former Ukip leader during the
:34:26. > :34:29.referendum campaign? Not at all, I have been open about this, the idea
:34:30. > :34:35.I have been involved in subterfuge. You try to sideline him openly
:34:36. > :34:39.rather than by subterfuge? I made the point we needed to be open,
:34:40. > :34:43.broad and progressive to win. I made it clear in my acceptance speech in
:34:44. > :34:46.Clacton and when I said that Vote Leave should get designation that
:34:47. > :34:50.the only way Euroscepticism would win was by being more than just
:34:51. > :34:58.angry natives. What do you make of that? I am over the moon that we
:34:59. > :35:04.have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas I rarely have that much confidence
:35:05. > :35:07.in Theresa May because history proves that she is good at talking
:35:08. > :35:11.the talk but in walking the walk often fails, and I'm disappointed
:35:12. > :35:15.because I wanted Douglas to be part of the post Brexit Ukip where we
:35:16. > :35:20.move forward with a raft of domestic policies and go on to take seat at
:35:21. > :35:24.Westminster. Do you think you try to sideline Mr Farage during the
:35:25. > :35:29.referendum campaign? Vote Leave certainly didn't want Nigel Farage
:35:30. > :35:36.front of house, we know that. They freely admit that, they admitted it
:35:37. > :35:40.on media over the past year. Nigel still was front of house because he
:35:41. > :35:44.is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for Nigel, as I said earlier, we
:35:45. > :35:49.wouldn't have at the referendum and we wouldn't have achieved Brexit
:35:50. > :35:53.because Nigel Farage appeals, like Ukip to a certain section of the
:35:54. > :35:57.population. If our primary motive is to get us out of the European Union,
:35:58. > :36:01.why are we having this row, why can't we just celebrate what is
:36:02. > :36:04.happening on Wednesday? We can, but you are far more confident that
:36:05. > :36:09.Theresa May will deliver on this than I am. Ukip may have been a
:36:10. > :36:13.single issue pressure group ten years ago, it wasn't a single issue
:36:14. > :36:17.pressure group that you joined in 2014, it wasn't a single issue
:36:18. > :36:21.pressure group that you stood for in 2015 at the general election, and
:36:22. > :36:25.I'm disappointed that you have left us when we are moving onto an
:36:26. > :36:30.exciting era. What specifically gives you a lack of confidence in
:36:31. > :36:33.Mrs May's ability deliver? Her record as Home Secretary, she said
:36:34. > :36:38.she would deal with radical Islam, nothing happened, she said she would
:36:39. > :36:42.get immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year in her last
:36:43. > :36:46.year as Home Secretary as city the size of Newcastle came to this
:36:47. > :36:50.country, that is not tens of thousands. I think we need to take
:36:51. > :36:54.yes for an answer eventually. The problem with some Eurosceptics is
:36:55. > :36:59.they never accept they have won the argument. We have one, Theresa May
:37:00. > :37:03.is going to do what we have wanted her to do, let's be happy, let's
:37:04. > :37:08.celebrate that. But let's wait until she starts bartering things away,
:37:09. > :37:10.until she betrays our fishermen, just as other Conservative prime
:37:11. > :37:15.ministers have done in the past. Let's wait until we end up still
:37:16. > :37:18.paying some sort of membership fee into the European Union or a large
:37:19. > :37:21.divorce bill. That is not what people voted for on June the 23rd
:37:22. > :37:31.and if you want to align yourself with that, you are clearly not a
:37:32. > :37:34.Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip to have relevance, it has to go
:37:35. > :37:40.wrong? I'm confident politics will come back to our terms but -- our
:37:41. > :37:44.turf but there will be a post Brexit Ukip that will stand for veterans,
:37:45. > :37:49.book slashing the foreign aid bill and becoming the party of law and
:37:50. > :37:53.order. Finally, to you, Douglas Carswell, you say you have
:37:54. > :37:57.confidence in Mrs May to deliver in the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't.
:37:58. > :38:03.You backed her, you were Conservative, you believe that
:38:04. > :38:08.Brexit will be delivered under a Conservative Government. Why would
:38:09. > :38:12.you not bite the 2020 election as a Conservative? I feel comfortable
:38:13. > :38:15.being independent. If you join a party you have to agree to a bunch
:38:16. > :38:23.of stuff I would not want to agree with. I am comfortable being
:38:24. > :38:27.independent. So you will go into 2020 as an independent? If you look
:38:28. > :38:31.at the raising of funds, what Vote Leave did as a pop-up party... We
:38:32. > :38:34.only have five seconds, will you fight as an independent in the next
:38:35. > :38:38.general election? Let's wait and see. Very well! Thank you both very
:38:39. > :39:00.much. In the East Midlands, after a tragic
:39:01. > :39:04.week at Westminster, it is back to the politics that article 50 due to
:39:05. > :39:09.be triggered this week, but is the East Midlands ready for Brexit? In
:39:10. > :39:13.the EU is at the investing in a lot of money in the East Midlands and we
:39:14. > :39:16.agree to miss it. I'm looking forward to sovereignty for a
:39:17. > :39:25.national parliament, that was paramount to me. Are we paying too
:39:26. > :39:30.much for our concert tickets? The lighthouse adding hundreds of pounds
:39:31. > :39:33.to the cost. What can parliament do to stop online ticket touts who are
:39:34. > :39:41.making millions out of supply and demand for tickets? My guess this
:39:42. > :39:44.week, ten o'clock and is a Conservative MEP for the East
:39:45. > :39:50.Midlands and Chris Leslie is Labour MP for Nottingham ace. Political
:39:51. > :39:56.editor Tony Rowe, who was in Parliament as events unfolded on
:39:57. > :40:00.Wednesday, is here. MR, this latest terrorist attack happened on the
:40:01. > :40:04.anniversary of the attacks in Brussels, in which the EU Parliament
:40:05. > :40:08.was also in lockdown. This must bring back difficult memories. You
:40:09. > :40:13.were there. Absolutely, it was a very sad day. We gathered in
:40:14. > :40:17.Brussels for commemorations all over the city, and it was tense already.
:40:18. > :40:20.People were thinking about the memories, where we had been locked
:40:21. > :40:26.inside the parliament watching and hearing about the events unfold
:40:27. > :40:32.outside. I was on a train to Paris at the time when it happened. I
:40:33. > :40:36.desperately hope the day will pass... Of course it had not be the
:40:37. > :40:42.case. What was going to your head as you heard the events unfold? It took
:40:43. > :40:46.me back. I was deeply concerned and worried about colleagues in
:40:47. > :40:51.Westminster, of course, that I know every time I go to London, I step on
:40:52. > :40:55.the Westminster Bridge, even though I had been net 1 million tyres and
:40:56. > :41:00.take that photo from the spot, so I know just from any people out there
:41:01. > :41:07.and how much it means to London and hope that we can all recover. Chris.
:41:08. > :41:10.You are on a visit to Berlin on Wednesday when this tactic place.
:41:11. > :41:16.Many of your colleagues in Parliament. Yes, I was watching it
:41:17. > :41:23.in the same way everyone else was watching it. That was pretty
:41:24. > :41:29.shocking, but I know for those of us who worked in Parliament staff,
:41:30. > :41:34.tourists as well, all-round Westminster, you do kind of know
:41:35. > :41:38.that this is a focal point for the nation, and if you work in
:41:39. > :41:42.Westminster, there is very high security, seen the back of your mind
:41:43. > :41:47.there is always that anxiety that something might happen, and
:41:48. > :41:54.tragically this individual costs so much havoc in such a dreadful way,
:41:55. > :41:58.and to see the loss, particularly of the police officer, everybody was
:41:59. > :42:02.absolutely devastated by what happened. Tony, you were in
:42:03. > :42:07.Parliament when this tactic place. What was like? Where MPs have their
:42:08. > :42:13.offices and where there is a big meeting area, all of a sudden I
:42:14. > :42:18.became aware of a commotion which sounded like somebody was try to get
:42:19. > :42:22.into the building, and the security emerged in that way. It was only
:42:23. > :42:28.when I saw people rushing in terror away from Westminster Bridge
:42:29. > :42:31.outside, you could see the silhouette running past. You
:42:32. > :42:35.realised that something terrible was happening. You must have been
:42:36. > :42:39.scared. I think anybody in those few moments where we didn't know what
:42:40. > :42:45.was happening was quite frightened by what was going on. But everyone
:42:46. > :42:48.really went in the back of the building and we stay calm, and I
:42:49. > :42:55.think it was a unity among the people in their, we had to stay calm
:42:56. > :42:59.and do what ever the police said. Was security good enough? I was
:43:00. > :43:01.slightly troubled because when it first started and we were all been
:43:02. > :43:08.moved back, somebody came up to me and said, is this normal? And I
:43:09. > :43:12.looked at him in a critical way, because I thought, what do you mean?
:43:13. > :43:16.I realised he was a visitor, he had come to visit Parliament and he said
:43:17. > :43:19.to me he had been going through security and he had been searched
:43:20. > :43:24.properly, and he said they open the door and let everyone in. And I
:43:25. > :43:32.thought, if he has come in without being searched, who else is coming?
:43:33. > :43:38.That the troubled me. What is your abiding memory of that day, apart
:43:39. > :43:43.from the tragic loss of life? For me, as we were pushed back, police
:43:44. > :43:46.were racing from all corners of the building, outside, we didn't know
:43:47. > :43:52.what was out there and neither did they. It was just their bravery. At
:43:53. > :43:57.the end of the day, in the evening, five hours after it started, we were
:43:58. > :44:00.all led out of parliament, through the passageways, under the
:44:01. > :44:05.parliament building, and as we were going out, the route was lying by
:44:06. > :44:13.police and security staff, the same police and been defending us. You
:44:14. > :44:16.wanted to thank everyone of them. As you would expect, it is business as
:44:17. > :44:20.usual in politics, and S3 Theresa May prepares to trigger article 50
:44:21. > :44:25.that can mean only one thing, Brexit on Wednesday. The premise of a
:44:26. > :44:29.former give notice of our intention to leave the EU. What will it mean
:44:30. > :44:37.for the East Midlands and I'll be really ready for life outside the
:44:38. > :44:41.EU? Gearing up for a big change, East Midlands copies are preparing
:44:42. > :44:45.for Brexit. All it is then Nigel Baxter, one of the leaders of the
:44:46. > :44:53.League campaign, leaving the EU can't come soon enough. Be let in...
:44:54. > :44:56.A large owner operators, all those people are still coming in,
:44:57. > :45:03.enquiring about the cause and taking orders. Business has continued as
:45:04. > :45:06.well if not better. Cross while bosses he have had no trouble
:45:07. > :45:11.finding business, what about the workforce? One idea being discussed
:45:12. > :45:14.is that a regional immigration that would let areas like London and
:45:15. > :45:19.Scotland set their own targets. But would that work in East Midlands?
:45:20. > :45:25.All of the examples that have successful regional immigration have
:45:26. > :45:30.either people registering with the police in the know where people are,
:45:31. > :45:34.or they are huge countries, like Canada as jelly, where it is not
:45:35. > :45:40.easy to travel from one region to another. Doctor Williams has another
:45:41. > :45:47.concern for the region's economy. My main fear is the development fund.
:45:48. > :45:53.The councils promise of a job or apprenticeship for everyone to the
:45:54. > :45:56.age of 24 is part funded by the EU, the tram expansion, part funded by
:45:57. > :46:04.the EU. New base for college, part funded by the EU. Nothing and
:46:05. > :46:08.Derbyshire working as enterprise partnership, it had money from the
:46:09. > :46:12.EU in the last few years. The EU is investing a lot of money in the East
:46:13. > :46:16.Midlands and we're going to miss that. I am looking for to
:46:17. > :46:22.sovereignty for a national parliament, that was paramount to
:46:23. > :46:26.me. I am hoping very much that we will get a trade deal that will be
:46:27. > :46:30.as good as close to as good as those we have today, I see no reason why
:46:31. > :46:33.that should not be. Different views about the future holds, but on
:46:34. > :46:38.Wednesday the clock starts ticking and Theresa May as two years to
:46:39. > :46:42.strike a deal that keeps both sides happy. As we know, Emma, you
:46:43. > :46:47.campaign for us to leave the EU, but now we have two years to get all of
:46:48. > :46:52.this sorted after Article 50 is triggered, is it really doable? It
:46:53. > :46:55.is really happening and Diane very glad that it is happening. We've had
:46:56. > :47:01.a lot of speculation is that the referendum, but this is it. It is
:47:02. > :47:05.all happening, it is to kick off on Wednesday. With the exchange of
:47:06. > :47:09.letters that we have, we will see how we will go forward in those
:47:10. > :47:12.negotiations. I would like to see them done in parallel so we will be
:47:13. > :47:16.with drying at the same time as forming a new trading relationship,
:47:17. > :47:20.said it began have a smooth transition. Melgart in two years?
:47:21. > :47:24.Everything can be done if you have the will to see through. That is
:47:25. > :47:30.what we have to do. We have deceived the EU is ready the Tigers are they
:47:31. > :47:33.going to play ball? They will be tough negotiations, no doubt about
:47:34. > :47:40.it, but I think what we need to focus on is what is in both parties'
:47:41. > :47:44.rightfully people. Let's reassure rightfully people. Let's reassure
:47:45. > :47:48.those people that are living in the UK on the UK Brits living overseas
:47:49. > :47:54.that they can continue to live and work there. Two years, is a doable?
:47:55. > :47:59.I will be very surprised. Surely it has to be done because that is what
:48:00. > :48:03.the remaining states want. From the British perspective it has to be.
:48:04. > :48:07.You can't adjust the Willets to happen. There are two parties to
:48:08. > :48:16.this negotiation. From what I heard talking to other European countries,
:48:17. > :48:21.they want to prove to their members that if you leave you will be worse
:48:22. > :48:24.off, and so I was getting very strong messages that the charities
:48:25. > :48:27.of us getting everything that we want as is currently the case, which
:48:28. > :48:31.is what David Davis has promised, is what David Davis has promised,
:48:32. > :48:37.not a chance of it. You could have total negotiations I wish the Prime
:48:38. > :48:40.Minister well, but I think the worry I have is about the benefits that we
:48:41. > :48:46.get from the single market, that people don't yet realise in two
:48:47. > :48:51.years' time we the losers. The reality is we have to be tough when
:48:52. > :48:56.we go into that room. We do have to start with being prepared to walk
:48:57. > :49:01.away from the table. That is how you get a tough negotiation stance. It
:49:02. > :49:06.is in both parties' interests to get an arrangement put in place for
:49:07. > :49:10.future trade. What role will MEPs play in this? I'm doing a lot of
:49:11. > :49:13.lines building with my colleagues in the open parliament and with the
:49:14. > :49:20.other countries inside the EU about what is in their best interest and
:49:21. > :49:24.what those countries top priorities in... And seen how we can move
:49:25. > :49:30.forward. What needs to happen is the emotion needs to come out and we
:49:31. > :49:33.need to step away from this punishment Park and think about what
:49:34. > :49:38.is best for the people. It all sounds very easy and simple, if
:49:39. > :49:43.everybody played by those rules. If you are a Manufacturer --
:49:44. > :49:48.manufacturer or any business in the ease Midlands and you rely on
:49:49. > :49:58.exports, it is the Paris that we risk having added on to the supply
:49:59. > :50:03.chain, all those goods coming in, that potentially could not just have
:50:04. > :50:06.higher tariffs adding to all the costs, but the friction that is
:50:07. > :50:09.added in slowing down the movement of those parts across the borders,
:50:10. > :50:14.this is great headers all economically. How did we get round
:50:15. > :50:19.that? We do not want to have any carrots. We're going in with a zero
:50:20. > :50:25.tariff stance. The reality is that we buy more of days products the
:50:26. > :50:29.name by ours. They would be hurting themselves. Are the EU negotiations
:50:30. > :50:33.prepared to play politics with people's livelihoods? European
:50:34. > :50:37.businesses still want to do business with the UK and vice versa. It is
:50:38. > :50:42.the politicians that will be getting any way to prove a political point.
:50:43. > :50:46.We saw an hour film the doctor who came up with this great long list of
:50:47. > :50:53.projects in the region that are funded part funded by the EU. Will
:50:54. > :50:59.your Government replace of that money? European money is our money
:51:00. > :51:03.that we sent to the EU, they then sent back. We contribute more than
:51:04. > :51:07.we had to do receive. When we are not contributing, we will be having
:51:08. > :51:12.those fans here in the UK to distribute. Will you replace those?
:51:13. > :51:17.I am engaged in making sure the even distribution of that, and making
:51:18. > :51:22.sure our share of it in the east Midlands, and the people I ever have
:51:23. > :51:25.that local decision, some involving local government and making sure
:51:26. > :51:32.they have their say about what they are going to do in terms of those
:51:33. > :51:36.funds. You promised that that ?350 million a week was going to go to
:51:37. > :51:39.the NHS, it was on the side of the big red bus, and amazingly all those
:51:40. > :51:45.who were campaigning for Leave before the summer have been very
:51:46. > :51:48.quiet about whether they will guarantee that money. The reason as
:51:49. > :51:54.it wasn't true and it is not to happen. There will be billions
:51:55. > :51:59.coming back from not paying to the EU. We can use those funds as we see
:52:00. > :52:03.fit you promised at. That is what we're going to do and we need
:52:04. > :52:08.concentrate on getting the best be -- deal when we leave Brexit, and we
:52:09. > :52:12.are using our funds for the priorities that each part of our
:52:13. > :52:16.country sees fit. You don't look convinced. There is the risk that we
:52:17. > :52:22.have gone from austerity from the banking crisis to posterity in the
:52:23. > :52:25.result of Brexit. When you see what the offers and the Treasury are
:52:26. > :52:28.projecting it is going to start hitting public services, because if
:52:29. > :52:31.your economy is not a strong you don't generate those revenues, you
:52:32. > :52:37.cannot have it for schools and hospitals. With all the developments
:52:38. > :52:40.at Westminster this week, you may have missed the news that MPs had
:52:41. > :52:44.been investigating the online ticket selling business. They heard
:52:45. > :52:49.evidence from one Nottingham -based company which sold millions of kids
:52:50. > :52:52.from concerts early to see them being sold on other sites with
:52:53. > :53:04.hundreds of pounds added to the cost. Nick Cave is back in
:53:05. > :53:09.Nottingham in September, last time he was in the city was a sell-out.
:53:10. > :53:14.Tickets for events are snapped up quickly, not everyone intends to go
:53:15. > :53:18.to the gig, some buy to sell to secondary agencies to make money.
:53:19. > :53:25.The agencies make even more. This is a really good example, go to the
:53:26. > :53:30.seat tickets website, ?48 60 hoodie booking fees. Go to a secondary site
:53:31. > :53:35.and they will tell you to hurry because they are selling them fast.
:53:36. > :53:40.Only three left apparently. When you go through you cannot select one
:53:41. > :53:48.ticket, you can only buy three tickets, and those three tickets
:53:49. > :53:54.will set you back ?513. At the Commons this week they investigated
:53:55. > :53:56.what they have turned ticket abuse. They began selling tickets
:53:57. > :54:00.over-the-counter as a Nottingham reckoned shop. Now they sell
:54:01. > :54:09.millions online a year, including big events like Glastonbury. We are
:54:10. > :54:13.powerless, if you bought six tickets today, if we don't know you and you
:54:14. > :54:17.bought six tickets and floated them through, we are powerless to stop
:54:18. > :54:23.that. One of the secondary agencies invited get evidence failed to show
:54:24. > :54:27.up. It says something about their lack of self-respect and the shady
:54:28. > :54:31.nature of the operation that they feel they cannot appear here and
:54:32. > :54:36.answer questions. The bands will play an anti-music won't stop, but
:54:37. > :54:44.how canny moneymakers be stopped from online touting in the face of
:54:45. > :54:49.supply and demand? We're joined now by Robert Wilms Hurst from the
:54:50. > :54:52.Nottingham based online to get select C Tickets. You are one of the
:54:53. > :54:56.big players in this industry but your company started with very
:54:57. > :55:02.humble beginnings. It was a record shop when I started. I should add I
:55:03. > :55:08.didn't find the business, it was a growing concern. I wanted computer
:55:09. > :55:13.system to Celtic as more efficiently. I am still here and
:55:14. > :55:18.selling millions of figures a year in the UK. It is a substantial
:55:19. > :55:24.business. We did about ?370 million worth of business last year, which
:55:25. > :55:29.is a lot of money. As we saw, you did sign up for that committee
:55:30. > :55:33.meeting. But your industry does have very serious problems with touts
:55:34. > :55:40.buying tickets from your website. What are you doing to stop that? It
:55:41. > :55:45.is a difficult one, so we have a number of technologies that try and
:55:46. > :55:51.find repeat tabs, and read them out. What we cannot do is stop
:55:52. > :55:56.individuals buying six, maybe selling to whatever, the bedroom
:55:57. > :56:02.taxes we -- touts as the column. It is deeper than the consumer issue.
:56:03. > :56:07.It is not just about consumers not wanted the high price which is what
:56:08. > :56:13.the media picked up on, but for as the wider concern is one of
:56:14. > :56:14.money-laundering, organised crime and credit card fraud. What you have
:56:15. > :56:20.any ticket is the base civil store any ticket is the base civil store
:56:21. > :56:24.and transfer value. It is incumbent on all parties to do what it can and
:56:25. > :56:28.not just say, it is just about this guide not wanted to pay twice the
:56:29. > :56:35.price for this ticket. What you think we should be doing about this?
:56:36. > :56:42.I had to buy tickets for Michael Boo Bley, but she was worth it. It is a
:56:43. > :56:45.Buick real... I work for the Rugby union has well and bizarreness Ollie
:56:46. > :56:50.time. The problem is real fans getting hands on it tickets for real
:56:51. > :56:55.face value. The Government understand this that it is a very
:56:56. > :56:58.forward I making amendments for the forward I making amendments for the
:56:59. > :57:02.Digital economy Bill, to make sure that the use of these is not being
:57:03. > :57:06.abused in order to harvest lots of tickets above the maximum in order
:57:07. > :57:10.to allow more tickets to remain available for the real fans. What
:57:11. > :57:21.you think about this, have you paid over the odds for a ticket? The
:57:22. > :57:25.thing is, for a lot of my constituents, it is something that
:57:26. > :57:30.really gets on their nerves, because they want to go to a sporting event
:57:31. > :57:38.or see their favourite artist, and sometimes what they do is they
:57:39. > :57:42.Google it and go to the website and the secondary sites will pop up, and
:57:43. > :57:45.they will think oh well, they must be telling the truth, there are
:57:46. > :57:50.noting its left. The advice tends to be to go to the registered website
:57:51. > :57:55.of the artist on a sporting event, because you're much more likely to
:57:56. > :58:00.get the truth about what tickets are available. We did approach via
:58:01. > :58:04.go-go, but we haven't replied. They said they don't buy and sell tickets
:58:05. > :58:12.but they just run a site that people can run that excel tickets on.
:58:13. > :58:18.Arenas disapprove of secondary ticketing. They are members of aid
:58:19. > :58:28.music industry campaign. It is the second oldest game in the book. If
:58:29. > :58:33.you look... I'll such a business in France, it is quite regulated, so
:58:34. > :58:37.ticket agents are licensed, and the travel agent industry the UK is
:58:38. > :58:48.licensed to. That is a possible solution, so at consumer knows... Go
:58:49. > :58:51.slack or MEPs be doing more? Possibly, it needs some effort. I
:58:52. > :58:59.was grilled quite a bit on this at the committee. They keep saying, we
:59:00. > :59:05.have legislation, but it is about enforcement. Legislation doesn't
:59:06. > :59:10.stop criminality. Is very rule -- a role for the EU? Is already
:59:11. > :59:15.legislation in place, it just needs to be enforced, understanding the
:59:16. > :59:18.trading standards officers around the country, and around the world
:59:19. > :59:22.this problem. More needs to be done this problem. More needs to be done
:59:23. > :59:27.in the identification of who you are buying from. The tickets I am bought
:59:28. > :59:32.were from eBay, and I knew who I was buying from. It was my choice to
:59:33. > :59:39.with faceless people. That is the with faceless people. That is the
:59:40. > :59:44.way consumers can behave, and there are certain technologies now in
:59:45. > :59:46.terms of putting the name of the person purchasing, even the
:59:47. > :59:51.photograph of them, why did he take it to prevent this stuff from
:59:52. > :59:57.happening. Give as an idea of the damage that has been done to the
:59:58. > :00:02.industry? It is consumer damage that is the issue. People lose faith in
:00:03. > :00:07.the industry, artist like it, they delivered a price their tickets to
:00:08. > :00:11.attack their fan base, so it does reflect negatively on the artist,
:00:12. > :00:15.because they can be seen to be complicit. People can be deterred.
:00:16. > :00:23.They go to Google first. Cross not They go to Google first. Cross not
:00:24. > :00:26.in a motorbike and we're also told is that they encourage fans to go to
:00:27. > :00:28.the fanfare Alliance website for tips on how to beat the ticket
:00:29. > :00:43.touts. The Government is being asked for
:00:44. > :00:52.?40 million to create 1000 jobs in the region's former coalfield which
:00:53. > :00:57.generated -- some of the highest levels of deprivation in the
:00:58. > :01:01.country. Plans to develop a form of American amusement park are expected
:01:02. > :01:05.go before councillors later this year. The value is expecting a
:01:06. > :01:10.planning application frame eggs of homes and retail space on the site.
:01:11. > :01:14.Skills in Nottingham will be among the worst hit in the country by
:01:15. > :01:19.changes to education funding, according to figures released this
:01:20. > :01:28.week. The Nottingham sub MP rated in the Commons. Every school in my
:01:29. > :01:32.constituency will lose an average of ?584 per pupil. Figures also
:01:33. > :01:35.revealed that skills and Derby will see an average rise of almost two in
:01:36. > :01:43..5%, one of the highest in the country. -- 2.5%. And that is the
:01:44. > :01:49.study we don't have any more time! Thank
:01:50. > :01:55.you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.
:01:56. > :02:12.So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday
:02:13. > :02:15.at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document
:02:16. > :02:19.Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -
:02:20. > :02:21.overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,
:02:22. > :02:24.And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,
:02:25. > :02:26.will trigger Article 50, formally starting
:02:27. > :02:29.The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,
:02:30. > :02:35.made an appeal for unity at the gathering.
:02:36. > :02:40.Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations
:02:41. > :02:48.that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.
:02:49. > :02:51.At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,
:02:52. > :02:55.they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic
:02:56. > :02:58.circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith
:02:59. > :03:17.Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on
:03:18. > :03:21.that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important
:03:22. > :03:25.figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our
:03:26. > :03:32.divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new
:03:33. > :03:35.crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international
:03:36. > :03:40.trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,
:03:41. > :03:47.by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is
:03:48. > :03:51.inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member
:03:52. > :03:54.states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because
:03:55. > :03:59.that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I
:04:00. > :04:02.think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.
:04:03. > :04:08.Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow
:04:09. > :04:11.setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise
:04:12. > :04:29.Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that
:04:30. > :04:33.doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would
:04:34. > :04:35.be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member
:04:36. > :04:38.states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is
:04:39. > :04:41.effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is
:04:42. > :04:43.not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent
:04:44. > :04:45.but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the
:04:46. > :04:48.Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it
:04:49. > :04:50.ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification
:04:51. > :04:54.process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:
:04:55. > :05:00.Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact
:05:01. > :05:04.that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,
:05:05. > :05:09.there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and
:05:10. > :05:14.quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and
:05:15. > :05:19.disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries
:05:20. > :05:23.celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful
:05:24. > :05:29.movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not
:05:30. > :05:33.there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there
:05:34. > :05:40.now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that
:05:41. > :05:45.we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!
:05:46. > :05:51.I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place
:05:52. > :05:54.envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why
:05:55. > :06:00.people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look
:06:01. > :06:05.at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not
:06:06. > :06:12.possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they
:06:13. > :06:16.will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?
:06:17. > :06:20.I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be
:06:21. > :06:23.surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal
:06:24. > :06:28.decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to
:06:29. > :06:32.buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed
:06:33. > :06:35.and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can
:06:36. > :06:39.happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany
:06:40. > :06:52.which could really result in a change of Government... That is the
:06:53. > :06:55.big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw
:06:56. > :06:57.that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into
:06:58. > :07:00.the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory
:07:01. > :07:03.observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,
:07:04. > :07:07.if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional
:07:08. > :07:11.agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council
:07:12. > :07:14.doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French
:07:15. > :07:18.elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second
:07:19. > :07:25.round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be
:07:26. > :07:29.representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine
:07:30. > :07:33.le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a
:07:34. > :07:37.party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to
:07:38. > :07:42.sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote
:07:43. > :07:45.d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that
:07:46. > :07:51.and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no
:07:52. > :08:04.longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form
:08:05. > :08:07.a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you
:08:08. > :08:10.know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we
:08:11. > :08:13.are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big
:08:14. > :08:15.task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional
:08:16. > :08:19.arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year
:08:20. > :08:23.timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us
:08:24. > :08:27.on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a
:08:28. > :08:30.meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is
:08:31. > :08:34.going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and
:08:35. > :08:38.agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government
:08:39. > :08:42.eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a
:08:43. > :08:47.take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have
:08:48. > :08:50.campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it
:08:51. > :08:54.wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our
:08:55. > :08:59.parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the
:09:00. > :09:03.negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated
:09:04. > :09:06.areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the
:09:07. > :09:12.campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council
:09:13. > :09:18.and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
:09:19. > :09:23.You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity
:09:24. > :09:25.for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the
:09:26. > :09:29.Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time
:09:30. > :09:33.devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog
:09:34. > :09:45.about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU
:09:46. > :09:50.march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to
:09:51. > :09:54.Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the
:09:55. > :09:59.European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of
:10:00. > :10:08.national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people
:10:09. > :10:13.like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is
:10:14. > :10:18.for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it
:10:19. > :10:22.happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were
:10:23. > :10:26.lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,
:10:27. > :10:30.if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their
:10:31. > :10:35.minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even
:10:36. > :10:39.begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.
:10:40. > :10:44.Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that
:10:45. > :10:49.credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the
:10:50. > :10:54.Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even
:10:55. > :10:57.then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's
:10:58. > :11:16.interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free
:11:17. > :11:20.movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single
:11:21. > :11:22.market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that
:11:23. > :11:25.outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are
:11:26. > :11:27.pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least
:11:28. > :11:30.let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea
:11:31. > :11:33.of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really
:11:34. > :11:35.did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want
:11:36. > :11:42.external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the
:11:43. > :11:46.momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the
:11:47. > :11:50.banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news
:11:51. > :11:55.was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force
:11:56. > :12:00.from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our
:12:01. > :12:04.resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right
:12:05. > :12:07.that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and
:12:08. > :12:11.that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining
:12:12. > :12:18.movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we
:12:19. > :12:20.will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course
:12:21. > :12:25.those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been
:12:26. > :12:29.such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she
:12:30. > :12:35.blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about
:12:36. > :12:42.this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's
:12:43. > :12:46.job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think
:12:47. > :12:50.you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and
:12:51. > :12:53.everywhere else where there are British citizens would have
:12:54. > :12:56.responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU
:12:57. > :13:00.counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that
:13:01. > :13:04.until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk
:13:05. > :13:08.about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a
:13:09. > :13:13.better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU
:13:14. > :13:17.citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow
:13:18. > :13:20.at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.
:13:21. > :13:22.And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow
:13:23. > :13:23.night from Birmingham - with guests including
:13:24. > :13:26.the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,
:13:27. > :13:28.former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -
:13:29. > :13:34.I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.
:13:35. > :13:38.Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's