:00:36. > :00:40.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:44. > :00:47.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:48. > :00:49.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:50. > :00:55.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:56. > :00:57.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:58. > :01:01.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:02. > :01:05.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:06. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:09. > :01:13.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:14. > :01:15.In the East Midlands, what will the Manchester bombing
:01:16. > :01:22.And are disabled people being ignored by politicians?
:01:23. > :01:32.what the Conservatives are offering the capital, having voted Remain.
:01:33. > :01:34.To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by
:01:35. > :01:36.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall.
:01:37. > :01:41.They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join
:01:42. > :01:48.So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign
:01:49. > :01:52.And some recent polls suggest the race is just
:01:53. > :01:58.We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first,
:01:59. > :02:01.here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so:
:02:02. > :02:07.Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews.
:02:08. > :02:09.This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions
:02:10. > :02:14.While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday,
:02:15. > :02:16.there will be no break in campaigning for
:02:17. > :02:23.And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall
:02:24. > :02:26.On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto -
:02:27. > :02:29.the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's
:02:30. > :02:33.Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see
:02:34. > :02:36.representatives from the seven main parties debate in front
:02:37. > :02:46.On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview...
:02:47. > :02:48.Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May
:02:49. > :02:51.They won't debate each other, but will take questions
:02:52. > :02:53.consecutively from members of the audience.
:02:54. > :02:56.The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians
:02:57. > :03:03.cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go
:03:04. > :03:10.We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm,
:03:11. > :03:12.with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th.
:03:13. > :03:15.Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion
:03:16. > :03:19.And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading.
:03:20. > :03:21.There are five new opinion polls today, which have
:03:22. > :03:23.the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six
:03:24. > :03:26.points to 14 points. So, what's going on?
:03:27. > :03:28.Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn
:03:29. > :03:37.to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow.
:03:38. > :03:45.Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They
:03:46. > :03:49.may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of
:03:50. > :03:52.these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying
:03:53. > :03:57.before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the
:03:58. > :04:04.Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour
:04:05. > :04:10.vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative
:04:11. > :04:15.lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are
:04:16. > :04:18.now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can
:04:19. > :04:24.no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some
:04:25. > :04:27.posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get
:04:28. > :04:38.rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major
:04:39. > :04:41.sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if
:04:42. > :04:47.they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of
:04:48. > :04:52.those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether
:04:53. > :04:56.the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing
:04:57. > :04:59.more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot
:05:00. > :05:03.box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a
:05:04. > :05:09.landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a
:05:10. > :05:13.majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground
:05:14. > :05:20.depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour
:05:21. > :05:24.Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week
:05:25. > :05:30.one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of
:05:31. > :05:34.people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I
:05:35. > :05:39.usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn.
:05:40. > :05:43.They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have
:05:44. > :05:49.looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour
:05:50. > :05:51.have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional
:05:52. > :05:56.voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of
:05:57. > :06:01.those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a
:06:02. > :06:05.particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous
:06:06. > :06:08.opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the
:06:09. > :06:14.Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is
:06:15. > :06:18.one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of
:06:19. > :06:22.us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained
:06:23. > :06:28.that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in
:06:29. > :06:32.an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly
:06:33. > :06:35.among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be
:06:36. > :06:40.wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in
:06:41. > :06:48.truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are
:06:49. > :06:52.wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend.
:06:53. > :06:59.The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support
:07:00. > :07:03.early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in
:07:04. > :07:07.Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has
:07:08. > :07:11.already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the
:07:12. > :07:19.possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come.
:07:20. > :07:23.That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned
:07:24. > :07:30.should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what
:07:31. > :07:33.looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a
:07:34. > :07:38.massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do.
:07:39. > :07:44.Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter.
:07:45. > :07:50.Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy
:07:51. > :07:55.and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing.
:07:56. > :07:58.The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa
:07:59. > :08:04.May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour
:08:05. > :08:09.Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't
:08:10. > :08:12.mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The
:08:13. > :08:17.more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have
:08:18. > :08:22.seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and
:08:23. > :08:25.stable leadership and then you do something like a massive
:08:26. > :08:29.unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even
:08:30. > :08:33.greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion
:08:34. > :08:37.polls or is Labour gaining some momentum? I think it is part of the
:08:38. > :08:40.reason. You can understand why the focus was on her at the beginning
:08:41. > :08:44.because her personal ratings were stratospheric. What is interesting
:08:45. > :08:51.is all successful leaders basically cast a spell over voters in the
:08:52. > :08:55.media. None of them are titans. All of them are flawed. It is a question
:08:56. > :09:00.of when the spell is broken. This is a first for a leader's spell to be
:09:01. > :09:03.broken during an election campaign. That was a moment of high
:09:04. > :09:08.significance. The fact the Labour Party campaign is more robust than
:09:09. > :09:13.many thought it would be is the other factor. I think it is the
:09:14. > :09:16.combination of the two, that the trend, as Professor John Curtis
:09:17. > :09:22.said, the trend has been this narrow. There has not been much
:09:23. > :09:26.campaigning. Local campaigning resumed on Thursday, national
:09:27. > :09:30.campaigning on Friday. Do you think, Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls
:09:31. > :09:32.are reflecting what happened in Manchester and people's thoughts
:09:33. > :09:38.about which party will keep them safe? No, I think that will come
:09:39. > :09:41.next week. I think it is too soon for that. It was quite
:09:42. > :09:48.understandable from the V -- the very beginning for Lynton Crosby to
:09:49. > :09:54.frame the campaign in terms of Theresa May and Brexit. The
:09:55. > :10:00.electorate can have its own view. You always have to go back to
:10:01. > :10:05.Clinton's it's the economy stupid for most of the electorate. It is
:10:06. > :10:11.framed in your electricity bill. It is framed in your jobs. Both
:10:12. > :10:17.manifestos have got more holes in them than Swiss cheese. It comes
:10:18. > :10:20.down to which manifesto you believe. The Labour manifesto makes more
:10:21. > :10:25.promises about things you care about like your electricity bill.
:10:26. > :10:29.Interesting, but in the end despite while we thought would be a Brexit
:10:30. > :10:33.election, it has been a lot about public services. It always comes
:10:34. > :10:39.down to bread-and-butter issues. I don't think we have quite seen how
:10:40. > :10:42.the terrorist you has played out. We had the Westminster attack only a
:10:43. > :10:46.couple of months ago. That was already factored in in terms of who
:10:47. > :10:51.you trust and who you don't trust. The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is
:10:52. > :10:54.already factored in. People actually care about how ordinary government
:10:55. > :10:57.policies affect their lives. Thank you very much.
:10:58. > :10:59.The election campaign was, of course, put on hold
:11:00. > :11:00.following the terrorist attack in Manchester
:11:01. > :11:03.But now that campaigning has resumed, it's hardly
:11:04. > :11:06.surprising that security is now a primary concern.
:11:07. > :11:08.The Labour Party has announced it would recruit 1,000 more
:11:09. > :11:22.Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at short while ago, says previous cuts
:11:23. > :11:27.have undermined security. It seems that the cuts in police
:11:28. > :11:30.numbers have led to some very dangerous situation is emerging. It
:11:31. > :11:37.is also a question of a community response as well. So that where, an
:11:38. > :11:41.imam, for example, lets the police he is concerned about a muddy, I
:11:42. > :11:44.would hope they would act. And I would hope we have -- and I would
:11:45. > :11:46.hope they would have the resources to act as well.
:11:47. > :11:48.Joining me now from Leeds is the Shadow Justice
:11:49. > :11:57.Good morning. You have announced a thousand more Security and
:11:58. > :12:01.Intelligence agency staff. That is in line with what the government has
:12:02. > :12:04.already announced and the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has
:12:05. > :12:09.said you would not be spending any more money. It doesn't amount to
:12:10. > :12:14.much, does it? That is just one of the parts of our pledge card on the
:12:15. > :12:20.safer communities. There is also 10,000 extra police, because the
:12:21. > :12:24.Conservatives cut the police by 20,000. That 10,000 extra police
:12:25. > :12:29.would mean in -- and extra police officer in each neighbourhood. There
:12:30. > :12:37.are 3000 extra put -- prison officers. Prison staff has been cut
:12:38. > :12:40.by 6000. That is a third. It is not helping keep communities safer. We
:12:41. > :12:45.are pledging 3000 extra firefighters. Also, a thousand extra
:12:46. > :12:55.security staff and 500 extra border guards. There have been 13 areas
:12:56. > :12:59.identified where our borders are not as secure as they should be. That is
:13:00. > :13:03.the list of numbers you have given. If we concentrate on the security
:13:04. > :13:06.services, because it was Jeremy Corbyn he said there will be more
:13:07. > :13:13.police on the streets under Labour. If the security sources need more
:13:14. > :13:17.resources they should get them. Why aren't you giving them more? We are
:13:18. > :13:21.committing to a thousand more police. The Godinet is doing that as
:13:22. > :13:28.well. You are not committing anything more. The government has
:13:29. > :13:33.not delivered on that promise. We will deliver on that promise is --
:13:34. > :13:38.promise. What Jeremy has made very clear is that you can't do security
:13:39. > :13:44.on the cheap. Austerity has to stop at the police station door, and at
:13:45. > :13:47.the hospital door. But we will be giving the resources required to
:13:48. > :13:54.keep our communities safer. So you will give them the resources and
:13:55. > :13:58.more powers? Well, the police need to be empowered. But when you listen
:13:59. > :14:02.to what the Police Federation are saying, they have been speaking out
:14:03. > :14:08.for a long time about the danger caused by police cuts. And I'm
:14:09. > :14:12.talking not only about terrorism, not only about acts of extreme
:14:13. > :14:18.violence, but anything from anti-social behaviour to burglary.
:14:19. > :14:23.Use it more powers. What sort of powers are you thinking of giving
:14:24. > :14:28.the security services? We need to listen to them. That is not a power.
:14:29. > :14:33.We need to listen to the intelligence community and the
:14:34. > :14:37.security service, to the army and the police, about what they think
:14:38. > :14:42.and how they think our communities could be made safe. One thing is
:14:43. > :14:47.clear. Cutting the number of police by 20,000 makes our community is
:14:48. > :14:51.less safe, not more safe. You said you will listen to the security
:14:52. > :14:56.services. Can voters be reassured and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn
:14:57. > :15:02.will listen to the security services and the police in terms of more
:15:03. > :15:05.powers if that is what they want? Until now he has spent his whole
:15:06. > :15:09.political career voting against measures designed to tackle
:15:10. > :15:14.home-grown and international terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on
:15:15. > :15:20.safer communities earlier this week made clear he is listening to the
:15:21. > :15:24.security services. So he would grant those new powers. He voted against
:15:25. > :15:32.the terrorism Act in 2000, into thousands and six. In 2011. And in
:15:33. > :15:37.2014, the data retention and investigatory Powers act. Which new
:15:38. > :15:42.powers will he be happy to enact? Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along
:15:43. > :15:46.with Theresa May, David Davis and many Conservative MPs, voted against
:15:47. > :15:50.legislation where they thought it would be ill-advised, ineffective or
:15:51. > :15:54.actually counter-productive. It is a very complex situation. What we
:15:55. > :15:59.don't want to do is introduce hastily prepared laws with one eye
:16:00. > :16:03.to the newspaper headlines, which can act as recruiting sergeants for
:16:04. > :16:06.terrorism. And actually, when I said earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made
:16:07. > :16:11.clear in his speech this week that he has been listening to the
:16:12. > :16:14.security services, what he said about the international situation
:16:15. > :16:19.has also been said by the former head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and
:16:20. > :16:20.her predecessor. As well as president of back -- President
:16:21. > :16:29.Barack Obama. You say he will give the police and
:16:30. > :16:33.security services the resources and powers they need. If we look back at
:16:34. > :16:38.some of the legislation Jeremy Corbyn and others voted against in
:16:39. > :16:48.2000, it gave the Secretary of State the -- new powers... Does Jeremy
:16:49. > :16:53.Corbyn still think that is a bad idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with
:16:54. > :16:58.Theresa May, David Davis and others... I know you want to bracket
:16:59. > :17:02.it with Conservatives but I'm interested in what Jeremy Corbyn
:17:03. > :17:06.will do when he says we are going to be smarter about fighting terrorism.
:17:07. > :17:12.If he's not prepared to vote in favour of those sorts of measures,
:17:13. > :17:18.or trying to impose restrictions on suspects, I'm trying to find out
:17:19. > :17:22.what he will do. It is a complex situation. With this legislation the
:17:23. > :17:26.devil is often in the detail. If it was a simple and stopping terrorism
:17:27. > :17:30.by voting a piece of legislation through Parliament, it would have
:17:31. > :17:37.been stopped a long time ago. Sadly there are no easy answers, and that
:17:38. > :17:40.is recognised by Barack Obama, Stella Rimington, the head of the
:17:41. > :17:45.MI5, by David Davis and other Conservative MPs. What is clear, as
:17:46. > :17:49.Jeremy made clear in his speech this week, is the way things are being
:17:50. > :17:54.done currently is not working. We have got to be tough on terrorism
:17:55. > :17:58.and the unforgivable acts of murder, but also tough on the causes of
:17:59. > :18:02.terrorism as well. The sad truth is there are no easy answers. If there
:18:03. > :18:15.were, the problem would have been solved a long time ago. If you more
:18:16. > :18:17.security and terrorism officers but your leader is still uncomfortable
:18:18. > :18:19.with giving them the powers they need to do their jobs because it is
:18:20. > :18:23.complicated legislation, they will want to know how you are going to do
:18:24. > :18:38.it. At another stop the War rally in 2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder
:18:39. > :18:41.of a charity worker was jingoism. At the beginning of that speech he
:18:42. > :18:47.mentioned the importance of the one-minute silence for the memory of
:18:48. > :18:51.Alan Henning who was murdered. What he has also made clear is
:18:52. > :18:56.responsibility for acts of terrorism and murder lies with the murder, and
:18:57. > :19:02.something that's really disappointed me is that the Prime Minister said
:19:03. > :19:16.the other day that in Jeremy Corbyn's speech on this on Monday,
:19:17. > :19:20.he said... Whether she agrees with him on his politics, she knows he
:19:21. > :19:24.didn't say that in his speech, but what troubles me is you have got a
:19:25. > :19:28.Prime Minister who must have sat down with her advisers earlier that
:19:29. > :19:32.day and said, well I do know he didn't say that but if we say he did
:19:33. > :19:37.we might win some votes. I think that is shameful and it shows
:19:38. > :19:39.Theresa May cannot be trusted. These issues should transcend party
:19:40. > :19:44.politics. We need to pull together on this issue. Thank you very much.
:19:45. > :19:46.Well, the Conservatives have promised a new statutory commission
:19:47. > :19:49.The party says it will identify extremism, including
:19:50. > :19:51.the "non-violent" kind, and help communities stand up to it.
:19:52. > :19:53.Also this morning, the Security Minister, Ben Wallace,
:19:54. > :19:55.has attacked internet giants for failing to tackle terror
:19:56. > :19:57.online, and accused them of being ruthless money-makers.
:19:58. > :20:11.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Those comments you have made about
:20:12. > :20:16.social media companies failing in their responsibility to take down
:20:17. > :20:20.extremist material, what will you do to compel them? I think we will look
:20:21. > :20:25.at the range of options. The Germans have proposed a fine, we are not
:20:26. > :20:29.sure whether that will work, but there are range of pressures we can
:20:30. > :20:34.put onto some of these companies. Some have complied. In the article
:20:35. > :20:39.in the Sunday Telegraph today I did say it is not all of them. They are
:20:40. > :20:44.not immune to pressure. We can do internationally, and the Prime
:20:45. > :20:47.Minister urged at the G7 and international response. I think
:20:48. > :20:54.there are a range of issues. We could change the law. You mentioned
:20:55. > :20:58.the G7, and rhetoric and warm words are fine to an extent but it is
:20:59. > :21:02.action people want. If you have made these impassioned remarks in the
:21:03. > :21:08.newspapers about them failing to do the job, people want to know what
:21:09. > :21:12.powers do you have now to say to social media companies take down
:21:13. > :21:16.this material? We have an act that was recently passed. In this area we
:21:17. > :21:22.have just finished consulting on one of the areas we could use but we
:21:23. > :21:28.cannot pre-empt the consultation. We have right now officials from my
:21:29. > :21:33.department over in the United States with American officials working with
:21:34. > :21:39.CSPs because what we see is that they do respond to pressure. The
:21:40. > :21:43.best example is we think they have the technology and the capability to
:21:44. > :21:49.change the algorithms they use that maximise profit over safety. But you
:21:50. > :21:53.are relying on these companies devoting more resources to this line
:21:54. > :21:59.of work that you would like to see them do. Have you got any evidence
:22:00. > :22:03.they will do that? They said, only a few weeks ago before the election
:22:04. > :22:07.was called the Home Secretary hosted a Round Table with them. We have
:22:08. > :22:13.evidence they are trying to improve it. A few are refusing to or being
:22:14. > :22:16.difficult, and that's why the Prime Minister was right to step up not
:22:17. > :22:20.only the language she was using but to say we are not going to allow
:22:21. > :22:24.this to progress any more. People will be worried about who will make
:22:25. > :22:29.the judgment about what is unacceptable and what should be
:22:30. > :22:34.taken down. Let me show you this, which was shared widely across
:22:35. > :22:39.social media. If you read that quote you could argue it is at the same
:22:40. > :22:43.end if you like. The man in the picture is a terrorist hate
:22:44. > :22:49.preacher, the jihadist who was killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is
:22:50. > :22:54.this the sort of thing you would be demanding social media companies
:22:55. > :22:59.take down? You have to look at the context it was deployed in. I could
:23:00. > :23:04.show you some of the 270,000 pieces we have had removed since 2010 from
:23:05. > :23:08.internet sites that have been extreme. The big issue is not often
:23:09. > :23:12.the individual image, it is the way these companies set up the
:23:13. > :23:18.algorithms to link you. If you were watching that on Facebook delivered
:23:19. > :23:24.to you, perhaps you would like to look at this, because that's how
:23:25. > :23:33.they set it up. If you go onto YouTube, you can get let down the
:23:34. > :23:37.path from looking at Manchester... I understand your example, but from a
:23:38. > :23:44.practical level are you expecting media companies to take down that
:23:45. > :23:49.sort of posts if it appeared? Yes... You are? Who will make the decisions
:23:50. > :23:54.about what will radicalise young people that could lead someone down
:23:55. > :24:00.the path to let off a bomb? If I invite your viewers to look at the
:24:01. > :24:03.work the Guardian have done on Facebook guidance, to say for
:24:04. > :24:08.example it is OK to produce videos or broadcast videos of
:24:09. > :24:12.seven-year-olds being bullied as long as it wasn't accompanied by
:24:13. > :24:16.captions, I don't think you need to be an expert to say that is not
:24:17. > :24:22.acceptable. Something more worrying for you as a journalist and me as a
:24:23. > :24:27.politician, another set of guidance that says... I think this is quite
:24:28. > :24:32.menacing... That certain people don't deserve our protection. That
:24:33. > :24:36.includes journalists and politicians and people who are controversial. So
:24:37. > :24:41.I think there is more work to be done but at the end of the day it is
:24:42. > :24:45.the pathway this stuff leads to. It is more about examining how much
:24:46. > :24:49.progress you can make. The Government says there are up to
:24:50. > :24:56.23,000 potential terrorist attackers in this country, 3000 of those
:24:57. > :25:07.posing a serious threat being monitored. That is pretty
:25:08. > :25:11.disturbing, these are big numbers. Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester
:25:12. > :25:14.shows this is not about failure, it is about the scale of the challenge
:25:15. > :25:21.we face and that is why it is important that alongside people is
:25:22. > :25:24.powers. Should you double the size of MI5 for example? We have
:25:25. > :25:30.increased year-on-year in real terms not only the money but the numbers
:25:31. > :25:37.of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we have committed to increased to...
:25:38. > :25:41.Before the attack. Before our manifesto we had recruited, we have
:25:42. > :25:48.increased the whole of government spending on counterterrorism from
:25:49. > :25:57.?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7 billion. Would you expand the number
:25:58. > :26:02.of people in MI5? I have asked them on a regular basis if they have the
:26:03. > :26:07.resource if they are happy with it, and the answer comes back time and
:26:08. > :26:12.time again, yes we are. You have quite extensive powers at your
:26:13. > :26:17.disposal, the question is if you are using them. Measures were introduced
:26:18. > :26:23.in 2012 to replace control orders, but they have rarely been used. Only
:26:24. > :26:32.seven are currently in operation. Why? Because there are a whole... It
:26:33. > :26:36.is just one tool in the tool box. Other powers we use, we take away
:26:37. > :26:45.people's passports if we think they are about to travel. How many? I
:26:46. > :26:48.cannot comment, it is a sensitive issue. Plenty of people are finding
:26:49. > :26:52.their passport has been removed and at the same time we strip people of
:26:53. > :27:00.citizenship to make sure they don't come back. On top of that, because
:27:01. > :27:03.of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5 and counterterrorism, we have more
:27:04. > :27:12.powers and more ability to monitor them. But are you using them enough?
:27:13. > :27:18.Only seven TPIMs are in operation. You won't give me any of the other
:27:19. > :27:21.measures at your disposal, but if they are only in single figures,
:27:22. > :27:28.that doesn't seem to compare with the numbers who are being monitored.
:27:29. > :27:33.Also, we have to strike a balance between... We have to satisfy the
:27:34. > :27:39.court so we have to make sure there is enough evidence to restrict
:27:40. > :27:44.people's freedoms. TPIMs do all sorts of good things to keep people
:27:45. > :27:51.safe. It sends people away from where they live, it tags them... I
:27:52. > :27:54.tell you why they are better. The control orders were on track to be
:27:55. > :28:00.struck down by the courts because one of the things we have to satisfy
:28:01. > :28:03.is the courts but we also have to satisfy, we have to make sure we get
:28:04. > :28:08.the balance between the community is right and the measures we take. If
:28:09. > :28:13.we alienate our communities, we won't get the intelligence that
:28:14. > :28:16.allows us to catch it. There is no point in having more police and
:28:17. > :28:22.intelligence services if you don't give them the powers to do the job.
:28:23. > :28:33.Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James Bond to do precisely nothing. And --
:28:34. > :28:35.thank you. The revelation that the Manchester
:28:36. > :28:43.suicide bomber, 22-year-old Salman Abedi, was born in this
:28:44. > :28:45.country has raised fresh concerns about the effectiveness of the UK's
:28:46. > :28:47.counter-extremism policy. In a moment we'll be talking to two
:28:48. > :28:50.people who've spent their careers investigating
:28:51. > :28:52.radicalisation in the UK. Douglas Murray,
:28:53. > :28:54.of the Henry Jackson Society, and Sara Khan, author of The Battle
:28:55. > :28:56.for British Islam and CEO of the counter-extremism
:28:57. > :28:57.organisation Inspire. We asked both for a personal take
:28:58. > :29:01.on how to confront the problem of Islamist extremism.
:29:02. > :29:04.First up, here's Douglas Murray. Even after all these dead,
:29:05. > :29:09.all this mourning and defiance, We remain stuck in the John Lennon
:29:10. > :29:27.response to terrorism - Our politicians still refuse
:29:28. > :29:30.to accurately identify the sources of the problem,
:29:31. > :29:32.and polite society This country gave asylum to
:29:33. > :29:39.the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi. Their son repaid that generosity
:29:40. > :29:43.by killing 22 British people, one for each year of life this
:29:44. > :29:50.country had given him. We need to think far more
:29:51. > :29:54.deeply about all this. Eastern Europe doesn't
:29:55. > :29:57.have an Islamic terrorism problem France has the worst problem
:29:58. > :30:05.because it has the most Islam. Are we ever going to draw
:30:06. > :30:09.any lessons from this? For the time being, the game
:30:10. > :30:17.is to be as inoffensive as possible. The rot isn't just within
:30:18. > :30:20.the Muslim communities. Consider all those retired British
:30:21. > :30:24.officials and others who shill, and are in the pay of the Saudis
:30:25. > :30:28.and other foreign states, even while they pump the extreme
:30:29. > :30:34.versions of Islam into our country. It is high time we
:30:35. > :30:44.became serious too. Islamist extremism is
:30:45. > :30:52.flourishing in our country. We're failing to defeat it,
:30:53. > :30:59.so what can we do about it? Whenever I say we must counter those
:31:00. > :31:02.Muslim organisations who are promoting hatred,
:31:03. > :31:07.discrimination, and sometimes even violence, I'm often either ignored
:31:08. > :31:11.by some politicians out of a misplaced fear of cultural
:31:12. > :31:14.sensitivity, or I find myself experiencing abuse by some
:31:15. > :31:17.of my fellow Muslims. These groups and their sympathisers
:31:18. > :31:26.tour Muslim communities, hold events, and have hundreds
:31:27. > :31:29.of thousands of followers Yet there is little counter
:31:30. > :31:33.challenge to their toxic anti-Western narrative,
:31:34. > :31:39.which includes opposition I've seen politicians
:31:40. > :31:43.and charities partner with and support some of these
:31:44. > :31:48.voices and groups. Many anti-racist groups
:31:49. > :31:54.will challenge those on the far right but not Muslim hate preachers,
:31:55. > :31:58.in the erroneous belief that to do But it's Islamophobic not
:31:59. > :32:05.to challenge them because it implies Following the attack on Monday,
:32:06. > :32:15.it cannot be business as usual. We must counter those
:32:16. > :32:28.who seek to divide us. Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray
:32:29. > :32:32.join me know. You wrote a book, strange death of Europe. What did
:32:33. > :32:39.you mean in your film when you said, let's get serious? Several things.
:32:40. > :32:43.Let me give you one example. The young man who carried out this
:32:44. > :32:47.atrocious attack was a student at Salford University for two years. He
:32:48. > :32:52.was on a campus which is, from its leadership to its student
:32:53. > :32:57.leadership, opposes all aspects of the government's only counter
:32:58. > :33:03.extremism programme. They boast they are boycotting it. They always did
:33:04. > :33:08.this. The university he was at was against the only counter extremism
:33:09. > :33:14.policy this state has. This is just one example of a much bigger
:33:15. > :33:20.problem. What are you suggesting? Shut down the University? Force them
:33:21. > :33:28.to change their policies? I think in the case of Salford, which
:33:29. > :33:34.discourages students from reporting Islamic extremism... When you
:33:35. > :33:38.discover you have produced a suicide bomber in Manchester, you should be
:33:39. > :33:45.held responsible. What do you say to that? I think it is quite clear from
:33:46. > :33:48.I am experienced there have been politicians who have undermined
:33:49. > :33:52.Prevent, community organisations, Islamist groups who have been at the
:33:53. > :34:01.forefront of undermining and countering Prevent, but also wider
:34:02. > :34:03.counter extremism measures. Islamist -- Islamist extremes and has
:34:04. > :34:08.flourished in this country. If Summer Rae had given us a crystal
:34:09. > :34:12.ball ten years ago and said, look forward and you will see hundreds of
:34:13. > :34:15.people leave this country to join Isis, we will have hundreds of
:34:16. > :34:19.people convicted of Islamist offences, I think we would have been
:34:20. > :34:23.quite shocked that things have got worse as opposed to getting better.
:34:24. > :34:26.Douglas Murray, the essence of your argument when you made the
:34:27. > :34:31.comparison between the numbers of Muslims in other countries is that
:34:32. > :34:34.we have too much Islam in Britain? The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood
:34:35. > :34:41.give is that the answer to absolutely everything is Islam. Less
:34:42. > :34:45.Islam is a good thing. Let me finish. The Islamic world is in the
:34:46. > :34:49.middle of a very serious problem. It has been going on since the
:34:50. > :34:52.beginning. I think it is not worth continuing to risk our own security
:34:53. > :34:58.simply in order to be politically correct. I would disagree with
:34:59. > :35:02.Douglas on that. Nobody is going to deny that since the end of the 20th
:35:03. > :35:07.century there has been a rise in Islamist extreme terror
:35:08. > :35:10.organisations. Yes, there is a crisis within contemporary Islam,
:35:11. > :35:14.but there is a class. There are competing claims about what the
:35:15. > :35:18.faith stands for. While we are seeing Islamist terror
:35:19. > :35:25.organisations, leading theologians are saying that the concept of a
:35:26. > :35:30.caliphate is outdated. Muslims should be adopting a human rights
:35:31. > :35:35.culture. I entirely agree with that. There are obviously people trying to
:35:36. > :35:39.counter that. I would urge us to take the long view. In the history
:35:40. > :35:43.of Islam there have been many reformers. Most of the time they
:35:44. > :35:47.have ended a up being the ones on the brunt of the violence. I deeply
:35:48. > :35:53.resent what you and others do in this country. I want you to win. But
:35:54. > :35:57.they are a Billy good minority. A poll last year found that two thirds
:35:58. > :36:00.of British Muslims found they would not report a family member they
:36:01. > :36:11.found to be involved in extremism to the police. You are proposing more
:36:12. > :36:15.Draconian measures. I wish they could win. We should do everything
:36:16. > :36:19.we can to support people like that. What we should recognise the scale
:36:20. > :36:24.of the problem is beyond our current understanding. You counter
:36:25. > :36:28.radicalisation on a university campus or online? Discussion we had
:36:29. > :36:34.with Ben Wallace about the material that is out there. If we pursue in a
:36:35. > :36:39.hard-line way perhaps the sort of thing Douglas Murray is suggesting,
:36:40. > :36:45.gone is freedom of speech, gone is freedom of debate and discussion?
:36:46. > :36:50.The best way to counter extremism is through the prism of human rights.
:36:51. > :36:55.We cannot abandon our human rights to fight extremism. Where I think we
:36:56. > :37:03.are going wrong, where there is a gap, is the lack of counter work to
:37:04. > :37:08.challenge Islamist ideals. How many people are going to say we need to
:37:09. > :37:12.counter that strict narrative? That is where we are not doing enough
:37:13. > :37:19.work. What about the human rights point, that you cannot take away
:37:20. > :37:25.people's human rights? I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting we
:37:26. > :37:31.do things that ensure that 22 people don't get blown up on an average
:37:32. > :37:37.Monday again, OK? Dissent to be opposed to people want to blow up
:37:38. > :37:41.our daughters is not opposing human rights. If you're taking government
:37:42. > :37:44.money and you are an institution like Salford University you should
:37:45. > :37:49.be held responsible for not cooperating with standard security
:37:50. > :37:55.measures. You can challenge extremism without abandoning human
:37:56. > :37:58.rights. We have got to actually counter the Islamist narrative.
:37:59. > :38:03.We're not doing enough. This is not about closing down free speech. This
:38:04. > :38:06.is encouraging it. This is the most effective way of countering the
:38:07. > :38:14.Islamist narrative. Why isn't it doing better? A number of reasons.
:38:15. > :38:19.One is there is a denial taking place. A lot of apologetics. Part of
:38:20. > :38:23.it is the way we talk about Muslims in this country. We use the term
:38:24. > :38:28.Muslim community as if they are homogenous. There is a positive
:38:29. > :38:32.trend but there is a negative trend among British Muslims. We need to
:38:33. > :38:38.counter those promoting the idea that Muslims are part of a
:38:39. > :38:41.collective identity. I agree. It is also the case there is massive push
:38:42. > :38:45.back because a lot of Muslims are defending the faith in this country.
:38:46. > :38:48.We think we can push them down a better path but they are defending
:38:49. > :38:50.absolutely everything. We need to get real about that. Thank you very
:38:51. > :38:51.much. It's just gone 11.35,
:38:52. > :38:54.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:55. > :38:56.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:38:57. > :39:05.minutes, the Week Ahead. In the East Midlands,
:39:06. > :39:08.campaigning is underway again here, but what does the Manchester
:39:09. > :39:10.bombing mean for security The important thing is to get
:39:11. > :39:18.on top of the Manchester incident, to make arrests,
:39:19. > :39:19.to keep people safe. But part of keeping people safe
:39:20. > :39:24.is having that debate And the campaigners who say disabled
:39:25. > :39:33.people have taken the biggest hit from austerity cuts and are
:39:34. > :39:36.being ignored by politicians. Labour and the Conservatives talk
:39:37. > :39:39.about targeting the older vote and trying to mobilise young people
:39:40. > :39:44.but there has been no attempt My guests this week -
:39:45. > :39:52.Sir Edward Garnier was the Conservative MP for Harborough
:39:53. > :39:54.for 25 years before standing down at this
:39:55. > :39:57.election and Rory Palmer is the Labour Deputy
:39:58. > :39:59.City Mayor of Leicester. There
:40:00. > :40:03.are reports in this morning's papers that the Tories
:40:04. > :40:06.are considering relaunching It's been a bit of a disaster
:40:07. > :40:21.so far hasn't it? I'm not sure I would agree with
:40:22. > :40:26.that. The election is let any other, polls narrow during the course of
:40:27. > :40:30.that and people historically have tended to vote for the party which
:40:31. > :40:33.they believe is a leading the best and produces the best prime
:40:34. > :40:40.ministers and I think you will find, I don't want to be complacent,
:40:41. > :40:47.that's Theresa May is the Prime Minister on Friday morning June the
:40:48. > :40:53.9th. What do you these are the day-to-day stuff of election
:40:54. > :40:56.campaigns, people get overwrought and overexcited and distracted but
:40:57. > :41:00.this election unfortunately has been overshadowed and will remain
:41:01. > :41:06.overshadowed by the terrible events in Manchester last Monday. But it's
:41:07. > :41:13.going to be the big shadow over the selection of the brightness that we
:41:14. > :41:14.find despite his dark clouds is that the pleural democracy with open
:41:15. > :41:23.systems of accountability will come systems of accountability will come
:41:24. > :41:24.through and that is what the psychopaths who engineered the awful
:41:25. > :41:31.events on Monday night. Rory Palmer, Labour's been
:41:32. > :41:33.picking up in the polls, How are you going
:41:34. > :41:42.to turn that round? The polls are narrowing, we see that
:41:43. > :41:45.in the media on the back of the Conservative manifesto launch, I'm
:41:46. > :41:49.not sure in modern politics we've ever seen the manifesto for a
:41:50. > :41:53.governing party unravel so quickly. The response on the doorstep for
:41:54. > :41:58.Labour has certainly been improving in my experience, I been canvassing
:41:59. > :42:01.in all parts of the East Midlands are clearly there is a big challenge
:42:02. > :42:06.and we will continue to work hard for every vote but as Edward says
:42:07. > :42:11.there is a dark cloud over this election campaign even though they
:42:12. > :42:15.are and running after the appropriate pause following the
:42:16. > :42:19.atrocity in Manchester, I think the usual tit-for-tat politics doesn't
:42:20. > :42:25.feel the same at the moment. And nor should it.
:42:26. > :42:28.Well, campaigning has resumed, but the Manchester bombing has cast
:42:29. > :42:31.What does it mean here in the East Midlands?
:42:32. > :42:33.Already questions are being asked about resources
:42:34. > :42:37.And one MEP says it's time to consider rounding up suspected
:42:38. > :42:42.Here's our Political Editor, Tony Roe.
:42:43. > :42:44.An election campaign stalled by terror.
:42:45. > :42:49.Politics put aside, replaced by unity and defiance.
:42:50. > :42:53.It's not unprecedented of course - war meant
:42:54. > :43:00.no general election between 1935 and '45.
:43:01. > :43:02.Ballot boxes being put back into cold storage
:43:03. > :43:09.More recently in 2001, the general election was delayed by foot
:43:10. > :43:13.And last year during the EU referendum, the murder of Jo Cox
:43:14. > :43:19.put the campaign on hold for 48 hours.
:43:20. > :43:22.Do these interruptions to the democratic process have any effect
:43:23. > :43:25.on the outcome when politics resumes?
:43:26. > :43:31.Immediately Jeremy Corbyn decided to stick
:43:32. > :43:37.Whilst it might appeal to his own voters to
:43:38. > :43:40.talk about ending foreign intervention, the type of person who
:43:41. > :43:44.is inclined towards Theresa May will be worried about Corbyn from a
:43:45. > :43:54.11 o'clock on Thursday, silence for Manchester in Leicester.
:43:55. > :43:56.After that minute, the noise of politics was
:43:57. > :44:04.MEP Roger Helmer wanted to talk about security, too.
:44:05. > :44:06.He says it's time to think the unthinkable -
:44:07. > :44:10.internment for 3,000 terror suspects.
:44:11. > :44:13.There are networks of these people and when we know who
:44:14. > :44:16.they are, we can't say, oh, well, we can't take them to court because
:44:17. > :44:21.I have just suggested that internment is a
:44:22. > :44:27.Terror and security, law and order, it's become
:44:28. > :44:29.an election issue as cuts to police numbers -
:44:30. > :44:37.What is happening now, there are more officers on the
:44:38. > :44:40.streets and because there aren't enough, they are being supported by
:44:41. > :44:44.4,000 members of the Armed Forces so it shows there is an issue.
:44:45. > :44:46.The Government has now decided that a large task
:44:47. > :44:51.Leadership is under the spotlight in any crisis -
:44:52. > :44:53.the Falklands War turned around Margaret Thatcher's fortunes and she
:44:54. > :44:59.swept back to power after being desperately low in the polls.
:45:00. > :45:01.NEWSREEL: Mr Churchill flew back and what was to
:45:02. > :45:03.be almost his last day as Prime Minister.
:45:04. > :45:06.On the other hand, Churchill was kicked out of
:45:07. > :45:10.office after leading the nation to victory in World War II.
:45:11. > :45:13.History teaches us politics in a democracy
:45:14. > :45:18.The country is ready for a new policy to face new
:45:19. > :45:26.We're joined in the studio by Paul Holmes from the Liberal Democrats,
:45:27. > :45:28.who was the party's MP for Chesterfield between 2001
:45:29. > :45:35.and 2010 and is now their party chairman there.
:45:36. > :45:47.Internment is an absolute disaster. We tried that in Northern Ireland or
:45:48. > :45:53.40 odd years ago and it was a recruiting Sergeant for the IRA. It
:45:54. > :45:58.moved nationalist people and to the terrorist organisation. It would do
:45:59. > :46:02.the same here. Americans interned at the Japanese during World War II and
:46:03. > :46:09.apologise afterwards because lots of Japanese went on to serve in the
:46:10. > :46:16.World War II. It is self-defeating. We have instrument already in war to
:46:17. > :46:23.deal with suspects of this nature, and there are enough laws and I say
:46:24. > :46:26.this with this report of the independent reviewer of terrorist
:46:27. > :46:30.legislation who this morning wrote that we have enough laws, to simply
:46:31. > :46:34.the application of them and we need to deal with. Of course we need to
:46:35. > :46:38.follow the evidence, we need to make sure that those who are properly
:46:39. > :46:41.suspected of criminal activity and these are psychopathic... Quite high
:46:42. > :46:51.under using those fools? A number of people have been
:46:52. > :46:56.subjected to measures and hundreds of people have been convicted of
:46:57. > :46:59.terrorist offences and they will continue to be convicted when the
:47:00. > :47:02.evidence is there but the whole point about dealing with these
:47:03. > :47:11.people is that they want to destroy our values, they hate us and we must
:47:12. > :47:16.not descend into the level of conduct that they wish to impose
:47:17. > :47:22.upon us. They are the enemy both physically and emotionally and
:47:23. > :47:27.psychologically and you must deal with them through supporting our
:47:28. > :47:30.values, underpinning the rule of law and making sure we do not descend
:47:31. > :47:39.into the sort of filthy behaviour that they would like us to take up.
:47:40. > :47:44.Isn't it the answer? We have a very strong legal framework in place to
:47:45. > :47:49.deal with those suspected of planning and sticking foreign
:47:50. > :47:51.terrorists and I think one of the critical points as we make sure
:47:52. > :47:57.those who are charged with applying that legal framework, the police and
:47:58. > :48:00.security services are fully resourced to do the vitally
:48:01. > :48:04.important and difficult and complex job that they have that they can do
:48:05. > :48:10.that job. I think there is more to be done, we need to expect more from
:48:11. > :48:14.the internet companies, social media platforms. It is too easy for
:48:15. > :48:19.vulnerable people to stumble upon and find extremist material on the
:48:20. > :48:24.internet interest material of all kinds. We need to find a solution to
:48:25. > :48:27.that urgently to stop whoever is in Government after the 8th of June has
:48:28. > :48:33.to put that at the top of their to-do list. Hope is what has
:48:34. > :48:39.happened in Manchester affected the mood in Leicester? Most
:48:40. > :48:43.multicultural cities? The mood in Leicester is one of outrage and
:48:44. > :48:51.defiance and real sympathy and upset for the people of Manchester and
:48:52. > :48:57.other great multicultural diversity. We cannot even Joe the day after the
:48:58. > :49:04.attack for an event led by young people over different faiths, we had
:49:05. > :49:07.powerful and eloquent defiant messages speaking to the values that
:49:08. > :49:11.Edward has mentioned which we must never step away from and that is
:49:12. > :49:15.critical going forward. We have to find a way through this as a country
:49:16. > :49:21.which doesn't compromise on those defining values of our society and
:49:22. > :49:27.community. But which takes head on in robust and rigorous ways those
:49:28. > :49:32.who want to drive hate and division and amenities, we must never give in
:49:33. > :49:38.to that. If internment is into the answers which we have all agreed it
:49:39. > :49:42.isn't, what is? If it was a simple answer you could legislate against
:49:43. > :49:47.terrorism and it would have been done years ago. There are no simple
:49:48. > :49:52.answers and the course that governments have been pursuing a new
:49:53. > :49:56.routes we have to go down and we learned a lot from trying to deal
:49:57. > :50:01.with the IRA with knee jerk measures which did not work and you have to
:50:02. > :50:05.engage with dignity. The current preventive measures that Labour
:50:06. > :50:12.introduced at being criticised but it is not a matter of scrapping
:50:13. > :50:18.prevent, it is a matter of improving it. Even a very simple measure of
:50:19. > :50:21.like switching the name from prevent to engage, you have to engage with
:50:22. > :50:27.the Muslim community because you need them to be passing on the
:50:28. > :50:30.information. The Conservative manifesto includes plans for a
:50:31. > :50:33.commissioner for countering extremism which the party says will
:50:34. > :50:39.help those community 's, prevent hasn't been a success, I don't agree
:50:40. > :50:44.with you. Prevent has been a success and the work, but plus the work of
:50:45. > :50:51.the security services is actually for example it's 2013 stopped eating
:50:52. > :50:56.plots. That could have been eating times 22 other people being blown to
:50:57. > :51:03.bits. There were others commission work? The commissioners agreed to be
:51:04. > :51:07.a mixture of police, security but also people from the ordinary
:51:08. > :51:12.communities throughout the country advising and coming forward. It is
:51:13. > :51:17.good to be something like a statutory body which will be there
:51:18. > :51:23.to provide advice to Government to learn the lessons. It'll provide a
:51:24. > :51:28.place can go to to get better ideas of how to produce practical
:51:29. > :51:31.solutions. The Prime Minister hasn't said how it will work but she has
:51:32. > :51:38.said it will have a clearer remit. Lots of promises being made in the
:51:39. > :51:41.late of Manchester, Jeremy Corbyn promising an extra 10,000 police
:51:42. > :51:45.officers and more security staff if your party wins. It's surely more
:51:46. > :51:50.than police numbers we need to increase and improve? Making sure we
:51:51. > :51:55.have a great number of police on our streets is really important from
:51:56. > :52:00.reassuring the public, it is really important to be built back
:52:01. > :52:05.neighbourhood policing which was ages Springwatch success under
:52:06. > :52:10.Labour Government anti-trust law committee said that is critical to
:52:11. > :52:14.this whole issue. We have police and crime commission is saying about
:52:15. > :52:18.enough police, experts from the intelligence committee saying there
:52:19. > :52:24.aren't enough resources, the first responsibility of any Government is
:52:25. > :52:27.to resource you police and security apparatus. Police said if the will
:52:28. > :52:33.of police who wouldn't need the Army? That is an easy thing to say.
:52:34. > :52:36.The Army act to provide reassurance and to allow police officers who are
:52:37. > :52:42.doing other things to be done with them. Counterterrorism is not just a
:52:43. > :52:46.question of police officers in uniform becoming the streets of
:52:47. > :52:52.Leicester or Nottingham Chesterfield. It is a very complex
:52:53. > :52:57.intelligence led in system, the security services have had their
:52:58. > :53:05.budget increased to very nearly ?16 billion. We have an 1800 additional
:53:06. > :53:10.security officers. It is highly sophisticated, completed but really
:53:11. > :53:14.dedicated work and it is not easy to just say let's have another
:53:15. > :53:19.policeman on the beat. By Kerry much indeed. -- thank you very much.
:53:20. > :53:21.Well, the cuts haven't just hit our emergency services.
:53:22. > :53:24.One campaigner in the East Midlands says disabled people have been hit
:53:25. > :53:26.worse than any other part of society.
:53:27. > :53:28.Frances Ryan, who writes an austerity column
:53:29. > :53:30.for the Guardian, says people with disabilities are being ignored
:53:31. > :53:33.by politicians, but they could prove a powerful voice in the election.
:53:34. > :53:39.In recent years, British politics has been widely
:53:40. > :53:43.But what is striking is that there is one group more
:53:44. > :53:45.than any other who have been impacted by Government cuts
:53:46. > :53:50.Theresa May talks openly about how severely disabled people
:53:51. > :53:52.will still be protected but in reality severely disabled
:53:53. > :53:55.people in poverty have been impacted by cuts 19 times harder
:53:56. > :54:08.By 2018, disabled people will have lost collectively
:54:09. > :54:15.So anything from the bedroom tax to fit for work tax
:54:16. > :54:18.to the abolishment of disability living allowance which pays
:54:19. > :54:25.This is only part of a bigger picture of inequality
:54:26. > :54:29.There are currently 1 million disabled people
:54:30. > :54:34.So that means anything from help to go to the toilet
:54:35. > :54:39.or have a wash, let alone go to work or be part of the community.
:54:40. > :54:41.The disability employment gap is still double that of non-disabled
:54:42. > :54:44.people but for wheelchair users who are having to use
:54:45. > :54:49.a kitchen and a bucket in order to wash themselves,
:54:50. > :54:51.because there is no accessible bathroom, or injure themselves
:54:52. > :54:54.as try to get up the stairs, there has been barely
:54:55. > :55:00.Labour and the Conservatives talk about targeting the older vote
:55:01. > :55:03.and trying to mobilise young people but there has been no attempt
:55:04. > :55:10.It's not hard to see why some disabled people feel shut out
:55:11. > :55:12.of the political process, considering at the last election,
:55:13. > :55:14.one in four polling stations were literally inaccessible
:55:15. > :55:22.Political parties would do well to start thinking differently.
:55:23. > :55:26.There is a small army of 13 million disabled people in the UK and 89%
:55:27. > :55:29.of those eligible to vote intend to at the upcoming election.
:55:30. > :55:35.Campaigns such as Crip The Vote UK do great work in bringing attention
:55:36. > :55:39.to issues that affect disabled people and mobilising the disabled
:55:40. > :55:43.votes but ultimately it is the job of politicians to engage
:55:44. > :55:49.the demographic who are too long ignored.
:55:50. > :55:51.It's a disgrace that so many polling stations
:55:52. > :55:54.were inaccessible for disabled people to cast their vote -
:55:55. > :56:04.is that just another sign as Frances says of them being ignored ?
:56:05. > :56:08.Clearly if people can't get to the polling station that is a disgrace
:56:09. > :56:15.and that is what the local authorities to run the politicians
:56:16. > :56:21.ought to be dealing with will stop can understand that as a practical
:56:22. > :56:26.point but it is not just polling stations, is getting into theatres
:56:27. > :56:30.and hospitals and the place of work and shops and the things to which
:56:31. > :56:36.every citizen should be entitled. I don't want to blanket all disabled
:56:37. > :56:39.people that they must identify themselves by their disability. I
:56:40. > :56:44.want them all to have the same access to public services, to work
:56:45. > :56:50.and entertainment and leisure at every other citizen has and so there
:56:51. > :56:56.may be 13 million people with a disability but they are young, old,
:56:57. > :56:57.employed, unemployed students. And if you're there are being ignored by
:56:58. > :57:03.all the parties? It is a moral all the parties? It is a moral
:57:04. > :57:09.outrage that over half the people living in property in this country
:57:10. > :57:15.are disabled, some of your a disabled person. But situation will
:57:16. > :57:18.get worse because of many of the welfare benefit cuts that the
:57:19. > :57:22.policy agenda which is very clear policy agenda which is very clear
:57:23. > :57:28.about the concerns of disabled people and will end these awful
:57:29. > :57:30.continual personal dependency payments and work stability
:57:31. > :57:39.assessments of disabled people are defined to be incredibly difficult
:57:40. > :57:42.and dignified and distressing. I chair the disability partnership
:57:43. > :57:45.board and I have heard many of these concerns first-hand. Disabled people
:57:46. > :57:52.are frightened about what is happening and what could happen in
:57:53. > :57:56.the future... They feel they are being hit harder by these cuts than
:57:57. > :58:01.any other section of society? It was the Conservative Party that brought
:58:02. > :58:04.in the disability discrimination act and since then we have been doing
:58:05. > :58:08.arrest in opposition to encourage the Lennon labour Government
:58:09. > :58:16.subsequently the coalition Government to bring forward
:58:17. > :58:21.targeted, tabled this book financing for disabled people but I repeat,
:58:22. > :58:26.disabled people do not want to be defined by their disability. They
:58:27. > :58:33.want access to the things that more able-bodied... Everybody in this
:58:34. > :58:40.country is having to share the burden of dealing with the economic
:58:41. > :58:44.mess that we inherited. Some would say the most vulnerable feel that
:58:45. > :58:49.worst? That is the whole point of this system of by you and as an
:58:50. > :58:54.individual conceded benefits which best suit arrives and make our lives
:58:55. > :59:03.most independent. We have to think about how to balance the books and
:59:04. > :59:07.all this? I'm not sure it is right, that we have a situation today for
:59:08. > :59:11.disabled people are taking really hits to their personal finances and
:59:12. > :59:15.income because of benefit cuts could it be the bedroom tax or
:59:16. > :59:19.introduction of other benefits changes but not the nearest get tax
:59:20. > :59:20.cuts. That is fundamentally not fair. There will do things
:59:21. > :59:24.differently. In the run up to the election
:59:25. > :59:27.we're hearing from all the candidates in some
:59:28. > :59:29.of the region's election hotspots. And they don't come much hotter
:59:30. > :59:31.than the battle for Ashfield Usually a Labour stronghold,
:59:32. > :59:35.it's now regarded as a three way marginal, and hotly contested too
:59:36. > :59:38.by the Liberal Democrats, the Green Here's the doorstep pitch
:59:39. > :59:41.from all the candidates. A vote for me on the 8th of June
:59:42. > :59:44.will protect our beautiful green spaces, oppose fracking,
:59:45. > :59:46.and fund our public Nationally we shall scrap student
:59:47. > :59:51.debt and oppose age-related wages. I am standing with Theresa May who
:59:52. > :59:57.will get the best deal for Brexit. A vote for Jeremy Corbyn's
:59:58. > :00:01.candidate will get chaos. I am the local candidate born
:00:02. > :00:04.and bred in Ashfield. I am a miner's son and a retired
:00:05. > :00:07.senior police officer. I understand the area's issues
:00:08. > :00:09.and I will fight to get The reason why you should vote
:00:10. > :00:16.for me as Liberal Democrats in Ashfield is that we have got
:00:17. > :00:18.a fully costed funding That is a penny on income tax,
:00:19. > :00:27.the reversal of the corporation tax, this will give 14 million extra
:00:28. > :00:34.for NHS in Ashfield. This is not a general election,
:00:35. > :00:39.this is a second referendum. Mrs May has asked for a greater
:00:40. > :00:42.mandate in Parliament and she doesn't need one,
:00:43. > :00:46.she has already got it. If you are one of the 17.4 million
:00:47. > :00:49.people who voted to leave, I want to bring Ashfield more
:00:50. > :00:57.up-to-date, I want to bring more I want to see the crime figures
:00:58. > :01:03.bringing further down, we want to get rid of the police
:01:04. > :01:07.and crime commissioner and put the money that is spent on those
:01:08. > :01:10.people to bobbies on the beat I'm always struck by the number
:01:11. > :01:17.of people who tell me you have helped my mum and my sister
:01:18. > :01:19.or neighbour and that's what I'm in politics for,
:01:20. > :01:23.to serve the people of Ashfield I can continue doing that or you can
:01:24. > :01:29.get a Tory MP who will do what ever Theresa May wants -
:01:30. > :01:32.police cuts, tax cuts for the rich. I'll never do that, I'll
:01:33. > :01:36.always be on your side. That's it for now, just time to let
:01:37. > :01:40.you know that there's a special East Midlands Today debate
:01:41. > :01:42.on the General Election Geeta Pendse will be in the chair
:01:43. > :01:46.as a studio audience grills politicians from all the main
:01:47. > :01:48.parties on issues that matter most That's on BBC One at 10.45
:01:49. > :01:55.on Tuesday evening. Time now to thank my guests,
:01:56. > :01:57.Edward Garnier and Rory Palmer re-elected. Is the only choice for
:01:58. > :02:17.strong and stable leadership. Now, after the Manchester attack,
:02:18. > :02:20.will the final week of election campaigning different in tone from
:02:21. > :02:27.what came before? My panel are here. Tim Marshall, it will be very front
:02:28. > :02:32.of Centre for the next few days. Is that a good thing for the election
:02:33. > :02:37.if it is going to be framed to who do you feel more safe with? It is
:02:38. > :02:42.inevitable but I think it will only be part of the election. As I said
:02:43. > :02:48.before the opt out, for many voters this is also about economics,
:02:49. > :02:53.unemployment. It is not all about Brexit, nor is it only about
:02:54. > :02:58.security. What it will do, I hope, is get the tone of the debate right.
:02:59. > :03:02.Although I have already seen the tone being lowered. I wasn't
:03:03. > :03:07.impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech last week blaming it on a foreign
:03:08. > :03:14.policy, which is a wafer thin analysis of what is going on.
:03:15. > :03:21.Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I think the argument is utter
:03:22. > :03:25.nonsense. I don't want to attack just one side. The Conservative
:03:26. > :03:30.party, I've forgotten which minister has already said that we would be
:03:31. > :03:35.safer under a Tory Prime Minister, it has got nothing to do with Labour
:03:36. > :03:44.or Tory government, the next Islamic attack. It is to do with jihadist
:03:45. > :03:49.ideology, not party policies. You raise an important issue about tone.
:03:50. > :03:52.It also points to a broader argument, one we were having
:03:53. > :03:59.earlier, has politics been two courses with this issue of
:04:00. > :04:04.extremism? Has the conversation about it tiptoed around some of the
:04:05. > :04:08.sensitive issues? And by the media. You highlight the problem of this
:04:09. > :04:16.being part of the election campaign by saying, has politics been too
:04:17. > :04:21.cautious? Who do you mean by politics? And in an election
:04:22. > :04:27.campaign there is a duty to be a divide, and adamant about values,
:04:28. > :04:31.policies etc. Security is an issue that transcends those political
:04:32. > :04:39.divides. So I think it is deeply unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a
:04:40. > :04:46.tragedy occurred. But if you ask me does it help or enhance an election
:04:47. > :04:53.debate? Emphatically not. A tragic event brings politics, as you call
:04:54. > :04:57.it, together. Security is an issue that is complex and doesn't divide
:04:58. > :05:04.neatly. Elections are political battles, by definition. So I think
:05:05. > :05:11.the coming together of this, a tragedy occurred anyway, but it is
:05:12. > :05:16.an unfortunate context. Do you agree or do you think this is a time to
:05:17. > :05:20.talk about these issues? Is it a time to review the level of
:05:21. > :05:24.argument? This is a political debate. I personally think the
:05:25. > :05:28.politicians should have been out and about on Wednesday. There is no
:05:29. > :05:34.wrong time to get it right. We mustn't let the terrorists affect
:05:35. > :05:41.our way of life. But they have when we disrupt the election campaign. It
:05:42. > :05:47.may be party political. But for a lot of voters, including me, I want
:05:48. > :05:52.to hear from party leaders. What do you plan to do about this? Right
:05:53. > :05:56.now, I've not heard anything that suggests any of these parties have
:05:57. > :06:00.got to grips with the real problem, which is that we are not actually
:06:01. > :06:03.tackling the problem in our midst. Douglas Murray touched on it
:06:04. > :06:11.earlier. We have not even come to grips with the scale of the problem.
:06:12. > :06:17.Does Labour have a grip -- Power Point in terms of terrorist
:06:18. > :06:23.legislation? It is complicated. And not all of it has worked or is used
:06:24. > :06:26.enough by government? It is another example where this doesn't work in
:06:27. > :06:32.an election debate because David Davis has opposed a lot of this
:06:33. > :06:35.terrorism legislation. He is now heading Brexit. There is a civil
:06:36. > :06:41.liberties argument which I personally have doubts about. Again,
:06:42. > :06:48.it brings people together from the major parties. And Corbyn didn't
:06:49. > :06:51.actually say it was the cause of terrorism, British foreign policy,
:06:52. > :06:56.but it helped to facilitate terrorism, which is a different
:06:57. > :07:00.argument. Again, that would be supported by some Tories as well.
:07:01. > :07:04.That is why it is difficult in an election campaign for this issue to
:07:05. > :07:09.dominate. The front page of the Sunday Times talks about a campaign
:07:10. > :07:13.relaunch, which may not, grow as a great surprise following the social
:07:14. > :07:19.care fiasco. Do we know what that will entail? It sounds like Boris
:07:20. > :07:23.Johnson will play a role. The whole point is it was all about Theresa
:07:24. > :07:28.May and it turns out that is not quite good enough. The more we have
:07:29. > :07:31.seen of Theresa May, the less impressive she has looked. Certainly
:07:32. > :07:37.the Andrew Neil interview just repeating the same thing again and
:07:38. > :07:41.again. Voters don't like that. They like people who are honest and
:07:42. > :07:44.actually engage with them. When we see beat interviews in the next few
:07:45. > :07:49.days, I think it will be interesting to see if she changes tack and tries
:07:50. > :07:55.to engage with what people are asking. If it is back to leadership
:07:56. > :08:02.and Brexit, and the economy, will that be more comfortable ground? I
:08:03. > :08:09.think so. I understand framing it in terms of Brexit. But she has got to
:08:10. > :08:13.broaden it out. I think that is why she is broadening it out. I don't
:08:14. > :08:22.think the tragic events will absolutely dominate. That would be a
:08:23. > :08:26.small victory for terrorism. This is a country of 65 million people with
:08:27. > :08:33.an awful lot of issues. We have 65 million votes, well, 65 million
:08:34. > :08:38.people with opinions in two weeks. It is quite a long campaign. There
:08:39. > :08:44.is still time to go. What do you think Labour will be focusing on
:08:45. > :08:48.from now on? I would imagine they will look very closely at where they
:08:49. > :08:54.are well ahead in the opinion polls and focus on that relentlessly.
:08:55. > :08:59.Public services, NHS etc. And try to get it off as soon as possible from
:09:00. > :09:03.security and fees is used which, on one level at least, appear to be a
:09:04. > :09:07.gift to the Conservatives. I assume that is what they are going to do.
:09:08. > :09:12.But this is a very unpredictable campaign where nothing has gone
:09:13. > :09:18.according to plan. Let's look ahead. On Wednesday evening we have got an
:09:19. > :09:22.election debate. It is in Cambridge. Leaders of some of the parties.
:09:23. > :09:27.Amber Rudd will be representing the Conservatives. We don't know yet who
:09:28. > :09:32.will represent Labour. Today we have had Amber Road and Diane Abbott
:09:33. > :09:37.against each other on Andrew Marr. Let's have a look. I think there is
:09:38. > :09:41.something to be said for a Home Secretary who has actually worked in
:09:42. > :09:46.the Home Office. I work in the home office for nearly three years as a
:09:47. > :09:50.graduate trainee. This government has always felt that urgency. That
:09:51. > :09:53.is why we have been putting in additional money. It is significant
:09:54. > :09:59.that the commission for extremism in the manifesto was put in before
:10:00. > :10:04.Manchester. We need to do more. You voted against prescribing those
:10:05. > :10:07.groups. Because there were groups on that list I deemed to be dissidents
:10:08. > :10:12.rather than terrorist organisations. We are making good progress with the
:10:13. > :10:17.companies who put in place encryption. We will continue to
:10:18. > :10:21.build on that. It was 34 years ago. I had a rather splendid Afro at the
:10:22. > :10:28.time. I don't have the same hairstyle. And I don't have the same
:10:29. > :10:32.views. It is 34 years on. The hairstyle has gone. Some of the
:10:33. > :10:39.views have gone. So you no longer, you regret what you said about the
:10:40. > :10:44.IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the views have gone. I would say to
:10:45. > :10:48.Diane Abbott that I have changed my hairstyle are few times in 34 years
:10:49. > :10:53.but I have not changed my view of how we keep the British public safe.
:10:54. > :10:57.Let's get away from hairstyle sides talk about the prospect of the two
:10:58. > :11:03.of them taking part in the election debate. Would you like to see that?
:11:04. > :11:09.On one level I would like to see it and another the level I would like
:11:10. > :11:13.to see an intelligent debate. I'm glad I never had an Afro or
:11:14. > :11:19.supported the IRA. Whenever Diane Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a
:11:20. > :11:24.radio studio, Labour haemorrhage votes. She cannot say things like my
:11:25. > :11:30.regret supporting this or that legislation. She is an absolute
:11:31. > :11:42.disaster. If Labour put her up, they are beyond mad. Who do you think
:11:43. > :11:46.Labour should put up? By the way, I did have an Afro! I based my whole
:11:47. > :11:54.log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. That is the wrong question. I will
:11:55. > :12:04.explain why. The Labour campaign, it seems to me there were only five or
:12:05. > :12:08.six people put up. That is the fault of others who refused to take part.
:12:09. > :12:12.It also shows the degree to which the current leadership can only rely
:12:13. > :12:17.on five or six people. I would imagine we are talking about a pool
:12:18. > :12:20.of five or six people. As for my judgment as to who the best public
:12:21. > :12:24.performer is in that pool, it would be by some margin John McDonnell,
:12:25. > :12:32.who is a very good interviewee and performer. I think he is a very good
:12:33. > :12:41.performer. It would come back to the economy at some point, presumably.
:12:42. > :12:46.But then it comes back to the IRA. I don't think the debate will be very
:12:47. > :12:50.illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd is there, Diane Abbott should be
:12:51. > :12:53.there. I think the leaders should be debating. Some people say it is
:12:54. > :12:58.froth. I think the leader -- the electorate gets a sense of the
:12:59. > :13:02.leaders. On haircuts, I would like to thank both of them are talking
:13:03. > :13:06.about the haircuts. I am looking forward to tomorrow's papers and the
:13:07. > :13:13.theme that will run through the week. Let's not finish on the hair.
:13:14. > :13:20.Thank you very much for being our guests. That is it for today. Thank
:13:21. > :13:26.the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil will be back next weekend. And I
:13:27. > :13:31.will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. That is at midday with more daily
:13:32. > :13:33.politics. In the meantime, have a very lovely bank holiday. From all
:13:34. > :14:08.of us here, bye-bye. As voters prepare to go to the polls
:14:09. > :14:11.to choose who represents them the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins
:14:12. > :14:21.me for the Andrew Neil Interviews. One minute to get the
:14:22. > :14:22.food on the plate. ..team them up with
:14:23. > :14:26.a Michelin starred chef, putting their reputation
:14:27. > :14:29.on the line.