:01:33. > :01:35.In the east, the disruption in our courts after cuts and closures,
:01:35. > :01:45.concern that justice is being eroded.
:01:45. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :35:35.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2030 seconds
:35:35. > :35:41.And the fight to save our local bus Hello, I'm at Etholle George.
:35:41. > :35:44.Come the up, pressure is building in our magistrates' courts.
:35:44. > :35:48.Magistrates voice concern that cutbacks and court closures are
:35:48. > :35:52.pushing them to the brink. Later we will be pushing those
:35:52. > :35:56.points to this week's guests, conservative justice minister
:35:56. > :35:59.Jonathan Djanogli, and Kelvin Hopkins, Labour's MP for Luton
:35:59. > :36:03.North. Let us start with a quick word
:36:03. > :36:10.about fellow East Anglian MP, the beleaguered Health Secretary Andrew
:36:10. > :36:14.Lansley, who was heckled on his way into Downing Street. Waiting times
:36:14. > :36:21.in the NHS have gone down... Jonathan Djanogli, these health
:36:21. > :36:25.reforms have not won many health professionals over. That was all in
:36:25. > :36:30.a day's work for a minister. The reality is that we need to push
:36:30. > :36:34.these reforms through. We need to have a health service that is going
:36:34. > :36:38.to be freed at the point of delivery, but we need to realise
:36:38. > :36:43.that there are more all the people and more new drugs coming on the
:36:43. > :36:49.market. Why didn't Labour tackle health
:36:49. > :36:53.service reform itself. I do not think it needs reform in this -- in
:36:53. > :36:57.that sense. We need more resources, but the traditional health service,
:36:57. > :37:03.publicly provided unfunded and three at the point of need, I think
:37:03. > :37:09.is what we want to preserve. heard Jonathan Djanogli referred to
:37:09. > :37:13.the lot of a minister. Have you ever had any abuse held at you'd?
:37:13. > :37:18.Only by perhaps people who were more supportive of New Labour than
:37:18. > :37:22.I was. But generally people are very nice.
:37:22. > :37:27.How easy is it to deal with a difficult press? You have to get on
:37:27. > :37:31.with it. You have to realise what the end game is, which in our case
:37:31. > :37:37.is to improve the health service. This is it ring-fenced servers, but
:37:37. > :37:41.we still need to get savings, which is why we are going to be getting
:37:41. > :37:43.rid of the big bureaucracies and giving power back to GPs.
:37:43. > :37:47.We will talk more about but another day.
:37:47. > :37:52.The pressure is being put on the transport minister this week as the
:37:52. > :37:58.fight to save rural bus services steps up. The protest is being led
:37:58. > :38:02.by Norfolk MPs and councillors. A change in the funding formula for
:38:02. > :38:10.concessionary travel has left not just Norfolk but many other rural
:38:10. > :38:14.authorities out of pocket. They have campaigned together for
:38:14. > :38:18.better train services and to save RAF Marham. Now, and offered's
:38:18. > :38:23.politicians have the buses in their sights. Nearly 24,000 people had
:38:23. > :38:27.signed the petition which be delivered to Number Ten. Rural
:38:27. > :38:32.areas should be treated as fairly as city areas. We want that budget
:38:32. > :38:35.more evenly spread. We want to preserve those services and the
:38:35. > :38:42.public transport services for the remote areas, who rely on them.
:38:42. > :38:46.Nor offered pays bus operators 11,500 -- �11.5 million for free
:38:46. > :38:51.off-peak travel for this disabled and pensioners.
:38:51. > :38:55.But a change in the funding formula left Norfolk out of pocket by �4.5
:38:55. > :38:58.million. The central Government and the
:38:59. > :39:02.Prime Minister have both backed the bus pass. That is great because the
:39:02. > :39:07.concessionary bus pass has brought benefits for people across the
:39:07. > :39:12.country. However, it is all very well saying they are backing the
:39:12. > :39:14.bus pass, but unless they find it properly, they are leaving massive
:39:14. > :39:17.hauls in some local authority budget.
:39:17. > :39:26.The change in the form and that means that Moffatt's funding has
:39:26. > :39:30.been cut by 38%, but in Russia it is getting 33%, Northamptonshire
:39:30. > :39:33.18% less. The fear is that with less money to subsidise services,
:39:33. > :39:40.it will only be a matter of time before the less profitable routes
:39:40. > :39:43.close. I am joined by Derek Murphy, the
:39:43. > :39:48.Conservative leader of Norfolk County Council. Why are the changes
:39:48. > :39:53.to the funding formula particularly affecting Norfolk? It it does macro
:39:53. > :39:56.is it a matter of geography? have 7,000 roads and a large
:39:57. > :40:00.proportion of our population in rural areas, so if it will hit
:40:00. > :40:06.rural areas hard it will disproportionately hit Norfolk.
:40:06. > :40:09.There are 42 local bus operators, most of them are what people would
:40:09. > :40:14.call small or medium-sized enterprises. For them to absorb the
:40:14. > :40:18.extra cost with the reduction of the concessionary fares Monday,
:40:18. > :40:24.means it is really difficult for them, and as your report suggests,
:40:24. > :40:30.in some of the more rural areas, bus services might not operate.
:40:30. > :40:36.Are you surprised at the level of support from other rural regions?
:40:36. > :40:41.We welcome it enormously. The leader of Devon was there at Number
:40:41. > :40:46.Ten when we submitted our petition, and it has brought in Cumbria,
:40:46. > :40:51.Lancashire, North Yorkshire. This has hit a nerve with people.
:40:51. > :40:54.Do you feel the Government is listening? I believe they are. The
:40:54. > :40:57.Minister of Transport was very sympathetic to our case when we
:40:57. > :41:05.submitted a petition. There is now a local Government finance working
:41:05. > :41:08.group took me revisit the funding formula, and Eric Pickles, the
:41:08. > :41:12.Cabinet minister for local Government, described the funding
:41:12. > :41:17.formula as a dog's breakfast. He is keen for it to be unravelled and be
:41:17. > :41:22.very fair. Kelvin Hopkins, Labour brought in
:41:22. > :41:28.free bus passes and I am told without costing it correctly.
:41:28. > :41:33.Hasn't that correct it -- I am certain the strongly in favour of
:41:33. > :41:36.concessionary bus fares for all who need them. Including those in my
:41:37. > :41:41.own constituency. We are not affected the same as rural areas,
:41:41. > :41:46.but nevertheless there are those living in outlying estates who have
:41:46. > :41:49.to get into town centres and have their troubles supported. So I am
:41:49. > :41:53.absolutely in favour of concessionary bus fares. If
:41:53. > :41:55.Government is to put in more cash, they should do so.
:41:55. > :42:00.A Jonathan Djanogli if the Government had not deprived
:42:00. > :42:04.councils of funds, there would be less of a problem anyway, so what
:42:04. > :42:08.is to be done? I do not think it is Government
:42:08. > :42:13.depriving councils - in Cambridgeshire, about four. It
:42:13. > :42:18.million tickets were issued last year, and it is a great scheme. It
:42:18. > :42:23.is doing a lot for the elderly and rejuvenating bus services. It is
:42:23. > :42:28.very important. That costs �4.9 million of which Government gave
:42:28. > :42:33.about �4 million. The scheme became even more successful, double as
:42:33. > :42:37.many tickets issued - as some. Government has to cap it. We are
:42:37. > :42:40.living in difficult times at the moment, so I totally accept there
:42:40. > :42:44.is a debate to be had about how much central Government should pay
:42:44. > :42:50.and how much should come from the local Government. But at the same
:42:50. > :42:53.time it is a very successful scheme. Let us realise that at the same
:42:53. > :42:56.time we have to be mindful of the cost.
:42:56. > :43:02.Derek Murphy, do you have any sympathy for the case that Jonathan
:43:02. > :43:07.Djanogli puts? I agree it is very successful, but in Norfolk
:43:07. > :43:10.literally half the Government funding that we should receive
:43:10. > :43:15.should be for these concessionary bus fares where we have the
:43:15. > :43:21.shortfall. Next year it will be �5.2 million. We get �11 million,
:43:21. > :43:24.we have lost half. You and I have spoken about cuts many times on
:43:24. > :43:29.this programme. Is there anything that is going to go in the meantime
:43:30. > :43:33.to maintain the services? We are negotiating with those operators to
:43:33. > :43:38.try and sustained as many of the services as we can. On one hand we
:43:38. > :43:44.tried to make as many local communities better link with the
:43:44. > :43:49.outside world by getting super-fast broadband. But at the same time
:43:49. > :43:55.although that is a good thing for local communities, to use their bus
:43:55. > :43:59.can be devastating on a small village.
:43:59. > :44:04.Nearly eight centuries of local justice could be at stake after the
:44:04. > :44:07.reorganisation of our courts system. According to magistrates, cuts to
:44:07. > :44:11.the criminal justice system and a programme of court closures are
:44:11. > :44:16.jeopardising the bedrock of our British society - Justice. The
:44:16. > :44:19.Government says the current system is unsustainable and has closed
:44:19. > :44:24.five county courts and it magistrates courts around the
:44:24. > :44:27.region last year. Harlow magistrates, now only hold trials -
:44:27. > :44:35.for all of their hearings defendants and victims have to
:44:35. > :44:38.travel to Chelmsford. A Lithuanian motorist stands
:44:38. > :44:43.outside Great Yarmouth court after being told by magistrates that they
:44:43. > :44:48.may tear up his case when he next appeared before them. He failed to
:44:48. > :44:54.pay a �2 parking ticket and faces a �70 penalty charge. But at two
:44:54. > :44:58.hearings, interpreters have failed to turn up. It is a waste of public
:44:58. > :45:03.funds to have to travel back and forwards to court, monitor have it
:45:03. > :45:07.adjourned again and again. Fair, open and effective local
:45:07. > :45:10.justice is a long-held tradition in this country. But does in the
:45:10. > :45:13.system have told the BBC they feared court services are fast
:45:13. > :45:18.being eroded. Spending cuts have forced the closure of several
:45:18. > :45:21.courts, and the Government has imposed its numerous changes on the
:45:21. > :45:25.system. Solicitor and Rob New is worried about the closures of
:45:25. > :45:29.magistrates' courts, but he says the reduction in staffing and
:45:29. > :45:34.administration problems are causing delays. I have clients now who are
:45:34. > :45:40.on bail for significant periods of time, reported to police stations,
:45:40. > :45:44.been subject to curfews, and then you have victims who are themselves
:45:45. > :45:49.have made reports to the police of crimes against them, and are not
:45:49. > :45:53.seeing their cases being dealt with sometimes for half a year or more.
:45:53. > :45:58.It is not hard to witness problems in the system. You just have to sit
:45:58. > :46:03.in court and watch. In court rooms three and four here, the following
:46:03. > :46:07.happened - two cases adjourned through lack of court time, a youth
:46:07. > :46:11.trial stopped for the same reason. Two cases adjourned because they
:46:11. > :46:14.could not get interpreters - one of these cases had been halted for a
:46:14. > :46:18.second time. And one man left hanging around the court building
:46:18. > :46:23.for eight hours waiting for his case to be heard, he pleaded not
:46:23. > :46:28.guilty to theft. His case - adjourned. It is leading to a huge
:46:28. > :46:34.backlog of cases in the sister. Jason appeared in court accused of
:46:34. > :46:39.not having a driving licence. have just adjourned it.
:46:39. > :46:45.In it emerged that Mr Shaw own thousands in unpaid court finds for
:46:45. > :46:48.various driving offences. Why have you not paid? I have not bothered
:46:48. > :46:52.paying them. Although 100 miles away in Harlow,
:46:52. > :46:58.the court there will hold trials only from April, minute all other
:46:58. > :47:02.cases will be heard 20 miles away in Chelmsford. High Low has large
:47:02. > :47:06.areas of deprivation. Magistrates feared many defendants will not be
:47:06. > :47:10.able to afford the cost of public transport to reach the new court.
:47:10. > :47:16.Because of the difficulty of getting into Chelmsford from Harlow,
:47:16. > :47:22.you have an awful lot of offenders and defendants who were just not
:47:22. > :47:26.turn up. They will say, I could not afford it, but actually we are
:47:26. > :47:31.setting them up to fail, almost, under the circumstances. What
:47:31. > :47:34.happens then? There will probably be a warrant, which will be given
:47:34. > :47:38.out for their arrest, so the police in harder will have to arrest them
:47:38. > :47:43.or bring them all the way up to Chelmsford because they have to
:47:43. > :47:48.appear within 24 hours of arrest. That is taking them out of their
:47:48. > :47:51.area, it is a cost to the police. To many in the courts, local
:47:51. > :47:56.justice is becoming less local, and more remote.
:47:56. > :48:01.There was a time when the Crown Prosecution Service was within the
:48:02. > :48:06.building, so if somebody arrives in custody the papers could be very
:48:06. > :48:11.quickly located and be dealt with. Now, everything is site --
:48:11. > :48:14.centralised, and the CPS offices for this area or up on a business
:48:14. > :48:18.park. It is not easy to get Hall of the things.
:48:18. > :48:21.Magistrates are also concerned about their role in local justice
:48:21. > :48:28.being reduced because police are increasingly using on-the-spot
:48:28. > :48:33.fines. The Magistrates' Association and the Essex branch do not believe
:48:33. > :48:37.that cuts should go ahead at any price. But at the end of the day,
:48:37. > :48:41.cutting just to save money but actually having a detrimental
:48:41. > :48:46.effect on the community, but we live in an self, we don't believe
:48:46. > :48:50.that this is the way to go. To Manchester's courts and
:48:50. > :48:55.tribunals Service said keeping under utilised courts open is
:48:55. > :49:01.simply not a good use of taxpayers' money. Essex courts have performed
:49:01. > :49:06.well of the last year, with 80% of that cases completed within six
:49:06. > :49:10.weeks against the national average of 75% we have taken account of the
:49:10. > :49:20.longer distance of people travelling from Hoddle by fixing
:49:20. > :49:23.
:49:23. > :49:27.bail time of 10:45am instead of Jonathan Djanogli, you said changes
:49:27. > :49:31.to the court system would mean, and I quote, a better, more efficient
:49:31. > :49:36.and more modern system of justice. With all due respect it looks as
:49:36. > :49:41.though things are descending into chaos. We have already delivered
:49:41. > :49:46.all of those things. We huge leap value the role of magistrates, and
:49:46. > :49:50.the fact is that their workload has fallen by about a third in the last
:49:50. > :49:55.five years. One of the reasons was given on your programme, which is
:49:55. > :49:58.police handing out tickets. We are looking at that, looking to see
:49:58. > :50:03.whether magistrates can have a role in monitoring the police giving
:50:03. > :50:07.tickets, but we do have to move with the times. If we look at the
:50:07. > :50:11.courts themselves, when we came into Government records were
:50:11. > :50:15.operating out something like 60% capacity. Some were only open one
:50:15. > :50:21.day a week or every two weeks. In a time when we do need savings, we
:50:21. > :50:25.had to deal with a bat. Is it proper justice, though, being
:50:25. > :50:31.handed out a fine for a serious offence that you should appear
:50:31. > :50:36.before a magistrate for? A lot of things, on-the-spot fines are a
:50:36. > :50:40.good way to deal with it, however, a series of violent offence, they
:50:40. > :50:46.should be taken to court. It means people avoid getting a police
:50:46. > :50:50.record, doesn't it? No, it would be a record, and a caution counts as a
:50:50. > :50:54.record as well. But we do think that they should be a role for
:50:54. > :50:58.magistrates in overseeing the police in handing out these fines.
:50:59. > :51:02.In terms of making the system more efficient, we actually have cases
:51:02. > :51:06.going through the courts quicker now than when we came into power.
:51:06. > :51:11.Some people are saying that that isn't the case, and they have
:51:11. > :51:16.clients... Nationally it is the case - caught by caught it may not
:51:16. > :51:21.be... One more point. What about that issue of people travelling
:51:21. > :51:26.long distances, not being able to afford the journey, papers being in
:51:26. > :51:32.that wrong place? What I say is that firstly 85% of the population
:51:32. > :51:36.live within an hour on public transport of the court. Yes, there
:51:36. > :51:40.are best courts, but the courts that we have are better. You
:51:40. > :51:45.mentioned cases going from Harlow to Chelmsford. That will be a new
:51:45. > :51:49.court opening in a month, with five courts in it. It will provide a
:51:49. > :51:54.better place to work for magistrates, and indeed court staff,
:51:54. > :51:58.and indeed the witnesses and the victims have to go there.
:51:58. > :52:03.Let me bring Kelvin Hopkins in. Labour also made changes to the
:52:03. > :52:09.courts system, saying they would have closed courts themselves. I
:52:09. > :52:13.quote the Sharda Justice Secretary. In Bedfordshire we have had for
:52:13. > :52:17.magistrates' courts close in the last few years. Luton is staying
:52:17. > :52:22.come I am happy about that, but if the Government focused more on
:52:22. > :52:25.unpaid fines, �1.3 billion worth instead of the relatively much
:52:25. > :52:28.smaller amount they could save by squeezing the court system, they
:52:29. > :52:36.would be doing a better job. Are you happy with the decisions
:52:36. > :52:40.that have been made? A agree that unpaid fines is an issue, left from
:52:40. > :52:45.the last Government. It is an area of Government we are doing a lot
:52:45. > :52:48.about, and the conception rates have huge increase over the last
:52:48. > :52:56.year. Coven, unhappy with the way things
:52:56. > :53:00.are panning out? No, I think we have high unemployment now, and I
:53:00. > :53:10.am concerned about that. Now far our weekly political round-
:53:10. > :53:13.
:53:13. > :53:20.-- now for our weekly round-up. It gets MPs huffing and puffing -
:53:20. > :53:30.dimension of a family the PM is all too familiar with.
:53:30. > :53:34.Our 11-year-old son asked, is Nick Clegg a goodie or a badly?
:53:34. > :53:38.There is only so much detail I can take!
:53:38. > :53:41.Policing minister Nick Herbert hit the mean streets of its which this
:53:41. > :53:45.week, talking about plans to end eight police and crime
:53:45. > :53:50.commissioners. The chief constable is operationally independent and
:53:50. > :53:56.will remains so. Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls visited
:53:56. > :54:03.Stevenage's Technology Centre. There is great innovation here.
:54:03. > :54:08.Southend's David AMs talk about fish.
:54:08. > :54:15.And yes, the MPs gave the opposition and the press their just
:54:15. > :54:20.deserts. I am told they won it after a re
:54:20. > :54:24.run cold by the press. Jonathan Djanogli let us talk about
:54:24. > :54:29.the police commissioners. Chief come up -- will chief constables
:54:29. > :54:34.and commissioners clash? I think it is is very important initiative.
:54:34. > :54:39.Local democracy is now moving to the police. If you went round and
:54:39. > :54:42.ask people who the current police authority chairmen is, let alone
:54:42. > :54:46.members of the police authority, I do not think they would have a clue.
:54:46. > :54:50.Now they are going to be asked to elect people.
:54:50. > :54:54.Kevin Hopkins, the police authorities do not have been at
:54:54. > :54:59.thief, a figurehead is needed? think the police themselves do not
:54:59. > :55:04.like the idea of elected commissioners, and I can foresee
:55:04. > :55:08.some political problems arising out of that. We may get trivial figures,
:55:08. > :55:11.pop musicians or whoever, being elected. I think the system we have
:55:11. > :55:14.now works - what we need is more resources.
:55:14. > :55:19.We have to lead -- we have to leave it there.