:01:33. > :01:38.Who is the real winner when the votes stack up?
:01:38. > :01:48.And the MP trying to solve the problem of how to look after people
:01:48. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :37:33.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2145 seconds
:37:33. > :37:38.Welcome to Sunday politics. Later, and then to the scandal of people
:37:38. > :37:43.losing their homes to pay for elderly care should be in sight.
:37:43. > :37:48.Someone else who has not chosen to save gets everything paid for by
:37:48. > :37:53.the state. A lot of people feel that is unfair and we're trying to
:37:53. > :38:00.address that. And to stop this situation were so often people have
:38:00. > :38:06.to sell their home. And how strong performances from UKIP in this
:38:06. > :38:12.region could boost the tally for Labour. UKIP could play a key part
:38:12. > :38:19.in the next election without winning one seat. Let's me to our
:38:19. > :38:26.guests. Norman Lamb. And Lisa Duffy. She is the mayor of Ramsey in
:38:26. > :38:30.Cambridgeshire pop --, the only county run by UKIP.
:38:30. > :38:36.Let's start with the hospital we discussed last week. The chief
:38:36. > :38:40.executive still had to appear before the Commons Public Accounts
:38:40. > :38:50.Committee where its chairman accused senior NHS management of a
:38:50. > :38:53.
:38:53. > :38:57.negligence. You took these decisions in 2007 to go out and
:38:57. > :39:03.find places to franchise while at the same time building a big
:39:03. > :39:09.hospital in Peterborough. It is clear there was not the business or
:39:09. > :39:14.the money to sustain the two separate hospitals. Norman Lamb,
:39:14. > :39:18.the first private company to run an NHS hospital. They hospital saddled
:39:18. > :39:25.with catastrophic debt. Where do you believe these hospitals will be
:39:25. > :39:31.in ten years' time? It is an interesting model. The company that
:39:31. > :39:40.is running at, it is still an NHS hospital, people have the same
:39:40. > :39:44.access, but the company is owned by of its employees from top to bottom.
:39:44. > :39:49.They sought to redress the quality of health care that hospitals
:39:49. > :39:53.deliver and there appear to be significant advances there. I
:39:53. > :39:59.suspect the staff feel engaged as they will have a stake in it.
:39:59. > :40:05.the future, a where will they be? Obviously there are real pressures
:40:05. > :40:12.in Peterborough and across the county. I think PFI has played a
:40:12. > :40:17.major part here. It has been disastrous. The NHS has had its
:40:17. > :40:22.future mortgaged to the tune of over �70 billion still outstanding.
:40:22. > :40:26.It was a big mistake of the last government to go down and road.
:40:26. > :40:33.Lisa Duffy, have the people of Cambridge have been let down by the
:40:33. > :40:37.planning? Absolutely. There is a high level of immigration coming
:40:37. > :40:44.into Peterborough. There will be a need for both hospitals. The fact
:40:44. > :40:48.they have got the PFI, the huge burden on our NHS, what we would
:40:49. > :40:54.like to see our county-wide health boards. Democratically-elected
:40:54. > :40:58.people who will make decisions on behalf of their county. The care at
:40:58. > :41:07.Hitchin but he is absolutely fantastic. I gave birth there and
:41:07. > :41:12.have had to take my children there, they have 100% focus... We need
:41:12. > :41:16.integrated care between GPs and hospitals. Now to the issue of
:41:17. > :41:21.long-term care for the elderly. Thousands of people in this region
:41:21. > :41:25.are forced to sell their homes and use up all her savings to pay for
:41:25. > :41:30.it. The Government are looking into her family's can plan for their
:41:30. > :41:33.future care. He suggested raising the value of what families could
:41:33. > :41:39.keep of their assets and capping the cost of care over their
:41:39. > :41:47.lifetime. But how much she did be? Norfolk have the second highest
:41:47. > :41:52.number of over 75 in the country. The minister responsible for care
:41:52. > :41:58.and support canvassing opinion on the future of long-term care. We're
:41:58. > :42:02.doing a survey to get people's views on care for elderly people. A
:42:02. > :42:08.lot of people feel it's unfair that people have to sell their houses to
:42:08. > :42:14.pay for care. We are looking at whether we should introduce a cap,
:42:14. > :42:18.to cap the costs and stock you suffering catastrophic loss if you
:42:18. > :42:23.or him up one gets dementia or something like that. The draft care
:42:23. > :42:32.and support bill has been a long time coming. The White Paper was
:42:32. > :42:40.published in July. If you have saved and worked... He you get
:42:40. > :42:49.punished for it. The coalition asked Lord still not in 2010 to
:42:49. > :42:58.make a report on the elderly. The report have suggested allowing
:42:58. > :43:01.people to keep �100,000 of their assets. We have the problem of
:43:01. > :43:07.public finances been in a complete mess, we're spending more than way
:43:07. > :43:12.of bringing in and that has to be taken into account. But the idea of
:43:12. > :43:18.having a cap so when you reach that cap, the state will take over and
:43:18. > :43:23.pay your costs from that 0.2 onwards. It would create some
:43:23. > :43:30.certainty for the private insurance market to come in and offer other
:43:30. > :43:34.packages to support people. changes proposed by the commission
:43:34. > :43:40.would better off somewhat better off pensioners. One way is to take
:43:40. > :43:44.away some of the universal benefits like television licences, winter
:43:44. > :43:52.fuel allowances. In the short run that could get to a lot of the way
:43:53. > :43:56.paying for the extra cost. How old are you? IM99. Residents said this
:43:56. > :44:03.nursing home have had to face up to the consequences of the system as
:44:03. > :44:12.it is now. One of the biggest worries for old people is the House
:44:12. > :44:20.there had been saving for all their lives, they have got to sell it.
:44:20. > :44:26.the average 65-year-old today faces lifetime care costs of up �35,000.
:44:26. > :44:32.For one in ten people it will be more than 100,000. Do you have any
:44:32. > :44:37.thoughts on how we pay for care for older people? It is very difficult,
:44:37. > :44:43.who do you go to? Public responses to the care and support bill would
:44:43. > :44:48.publish one week ago and it is due before Parliament in the new year.
:44:48. > :44:53.Cross-party consensus has fallen apart before. Critical planning for
:44:53. > :45:00.our future care needs depends on a more successful outcome this time.
:45:00. > :45:05.One has the cap on lifetime care now been talked about going up to
:45:05. > :45:10.�75,000? We have not settled on a figure and there are still
:45:10. > :45:14.negotiations going on. I think we need to implement this report, the
:45:14. > :45:22.idea that the state can help protect people against catastrophic
:45:22. > :45:28.loss because of dementia Lhasa Apso one I raised the cap? As I said in
:45:28. > :45:33.a clip, we have to balance the dire state of public finances. We have
:45:33. > :45:40.to get it under control. We also need to provide protection for
:45:40. > :45:47.people in their old age. We have not settled on a cap yet. Lisa
:45:47. > :45:51.Duffy, what is UKIP's view? We're very pleased to see a report like
:45:51. > :45:56.this that will protect people. People, especially those who have
:45:56. > :46:01.worked hard all their lives, why should they be penalised? We ought
:46:01. > :46:04.to be looking after our older generation, they have led us to
:46:04. > :46:13.where we are now and we should give them the dignity of looking after
:46:13. > :46:17.them. Does your party have a policy on this? We are working through our
:46:17. > :46:22.health policy, the key things we would like to see our helping
:46:22. > :46:27.people save for the future, giving them a reason to save for their
:46:27. > :46:32.long-term care. We would also like to see a bigger part in supporting
:46:32. > :46:40.families to enable them to look after their elders. Many years ago,
:46:40. > :46:46.you would not see people going into as many care homes. Norman Lamb, I
:46:46. > :46:51.will bring you in a moment. Why does your party not have a policy?
:46:51. > :46:56.We are reviewing all our policies at the moment. We're taking time to
:46:56. > :47:01.make sure the policies we bring out and put forward to the constituents
:47:01. > :47:07.are fully fledged and accountable. We will not be making staff up to
:47:07. > :47:15.win votes, we will be putting out credible policies. Norman Lamb, if
:47:15. > :47:20.the cap is set at 55,000, it would cost �1.7 billion the year.
:47:20. > :47:26.that is the cap set at quite a low level, we may need to set it at a
:47:26. > :47:34.higher level and we are discussing that in government at the moment.
:47:34. > :47:43.RU Saini cannot afford this low- level cap? We may not be able to. -
:47:43. > :47:48.- RU saying. Some of the worst public finances have any G20
:47:48. > :47:53.country have to be sorted out. The Government has the prime objective
:47:53. > :47:59.of getting the public finances in order, but also we want to ensure
:47:59. > :48:03.we make real reform in areas like care for elderly people. For too
:48:03. > :48:09.long this has been neglected and we have got to the point now were the
:48:09. > :48:15.three main parties have agreed on this model of a funding and the
:48:15. > :48:21.task the Nile is to implement that. I think it is really important that
:48:21. > :48:27.the Government put our elderly care at the top of the agenda. We have
:48:27. > :48:31.not taken enough time to think about the long-term future. The
:48:31. > :48:37.other a point about finances, if we were not members of the European
:48:37. > :48:43.Union, and I know you will laugh at that, but that would be �150
:48:43. > :48:48.billion the year. One of our Conservative MPs has warned that
:48:48. > :48:54.the Tories could lose as many as eight seats in this region in the
:48:54. > :49:01.next election because of the surge in support for UKIP. A recent
:49:01. > :49:05.opinion poll suggested 21% of people in East support of UKIP.
:49:05. > :49:11.Probably not enough for any MPs, but by splitting the the right to
:49:11. > :49:17.centre vote it will make it easier for Labour to win.
:49:17. > :49:22.The UK Independence Party have been with us for almost 20 years. Most
:49:22. > :49:29.of that time the other parties have dismissed it as a joke. But not any
:49:29. > :49:32.more. UKIP are a threat to the Conservative Party. The red lights
:49:32. > :49:37.are all on and the Government have to do something to persuade
:49:37. > :49:43.people's fears. We know they can do well in Euro elections, but there
:49:43. > :49:49.are now making their mark in UK elections. They have 54 local
:49:49. > :49:53.councillors in the east. It runs Ramsey Council in Cambridgeshire.
:49:53. > :49:59.They came third in the Corby by- election and poured more than the
:49:59. > :50:02.Lib Dems in the PCS elections. And most importantly it is splitting
:50:02. > :50:07.the Conservative votes. They could play a key part in the next
:50:07. > :50:12.election without winning a single seat. Labour are recovering by
:50:12. > :50:16.getting votes that went to the Lib Dems in 2010. The Conservatives
:50:17. > :50:20.need to increase their votes and they're looking at UKIP who are
:50:21. > :50:27.knocking on the door trying to attract Conservative voters away
:50:27. > :50:31.from them. It's it could cost us seven or eight seeds. That would
:50:32. > :50:35.mean we would not have a Conservative government. One of the
:50:35. > :50:41.places he has in mind is probably Great Yarmouth where there was an
:50:41. > :50:46.upset in the local elections this year as UKIP split the Tory vote.
:50:46. > :50:53.In two of those wars we came second and then several others are we came
:50:53. > :50:57.third. -- wards. This affected the composition of the council, four
:50:57. > :51:03.Conservatives lost their seats changing the majority on the
:51:03. > :51:08.council to Labour. That could happen again in the next general
:51:08. > :51:13.election. The current MP for Yarmouth has a majority over Labour
:51:13. > :51:20.of just 4,000. It would be more secure if 2000 people have and
:51:20. > :51:25.voted UKIP. You have to take your opponents seriously, you work hard,
:51:25. > :51:32.and knock on doors and talk to people. You have got to work hard
:51:32. > :51:42.and all we can do as politicians is work hard for our communities.
:51:42. > :51:52.
:51:52. > :51:56.David Cameron it needs to articulate a positive message of
:51:56. > :52:06.taking powers back from Brussels, of sticking up for British
:52:06. > :52:07.
:52:07. > :52:13.interests, of moving ultimately to an inner, Out referendum. The Prime
:52:13. > :52:17.Minister knows many of his MPs want him to be more eurosceptic.
:52:17. > :52:23.Conservative Party is a broad church. You have people with
:52:23. > :52:27.different views, but the Government policy is absolutely clear. We need
:52:27. > :52:32.to be in the European Union because we need the benefit of a single
:52:32. > :52:37.market. We do not want to be governed by Europe so we begin a
:52:37. > :52:42.new settlement. The Prime Minister has ruled out any pact with the
:52:42. > :52:50.party, but many MPs say something must be done before the next
:52:50. > :53:00.election. In Ipswich is that Qatana MP. Do
:53:00. > :53:01.
:53:01. > :53:07.you feel worried? -- is the town's MPs. I am working harder every day
:53:07. > :53:11.of the year. You must be vulnerable though? I am vulnerable to a whole
:53:11. > :53:16.series of things, people wanting someone else to do the job, is
:53:16. > :53:23.strong Labour Party, for I am vulnerable to a Liberal Democrat
:53:23. > :53:27.party locally. This is fluid politics. I do not know anything
:53:27. > :53:32.about a local UKIP presence. They have not done anything to show they
:53:32. > :53:38.are interested in Ipswich but when they do we can have a discussion
:53:38. > :53:46.about it. Are you saying you're not aware of any UKIP threat therefore
:53:46. > :53:49.you're not worried about it? Not at all. I was saying when I see them,
:53:50. > :53:54.we will then have a discussion about what they want to do for the
:53:54. > :54:01.towns. I will make the argument if we want to come out of the European
:54:01. > :54:08.Union, we will be using tens of thousands of jobs in Suffolk.
:54:08. > :54:13.we will not see you any time soon making a pact with UKIP? UKIP is a
:54:13. > :54:18.party that really wants to turn Britain back to the 1950s. They
:54:18. > :54:23.believe are our best days are behind us. I do not think that is
:54:23. > :54:28.the kind of Britain we can build all want to build. I think we are
:54:28. > :54:32.going to do better in the future. Part of that is a new deal with
:54:32. > :54:37.Europe and that's what we should be proposing in the next few years. Do
:54:37. > :54:43.people really want to be represented by UKIP? I think there
:54:43. > :54:49.will be much more stark choice in the next election. Would you like
:54:49. > :54:56.to see the Prime Minister be more eurosceptic? The pride and Mr has
:54:56. > :55:01.taken a robust view in Europe. -- the Prime Minister. He vetoed a
:55:01. > :55:06.treaty at last year and he has conducted negotiations on the
:55:06. > :55:11.reform of Europe on the European budget. He is doing exactly what he
:55:11. > :55:21.is asked to do by the British people. The eurozone will come
:55:21. > :55:23.
:55:23. > :55:27.together soon to make it their own way. Let's bring our other guests
:55:27. > :55:34.in. Lisa Duffy, you heard what he said your party wants to take the
:55:34. > :55:38.country back to the 1950s. Clearly not. We want to take our party for
:55:38. > :55:44.it with the commonsense policies. Our votes are not just coming from
:55:44. > :55:49.Conservatives, they are coming from Labour. We saw that in Corby and
:55:49. > :55:56.Rotherham. But you are still the bridesmaid, not yet to the bride.
:55:56. > :56:02.It is small steps. You can see how quickly we are growing. Have the
:56:02. > :56:05.viewpoint of the constituents out there are giving us their vote. We
:56:05. > :56:13.are making any impact in local government and achieving a lot in a
:56:13. > :56:19.small space of time. Norman Lamb, how do the Lib Dems sit in on this?
:56:19. > :56:23.You are losing a lot of votes to Labour. You must be concerned?
:56:23. > :56:28.We're in government for the first time in a very difficult time of
:56:28. > :56:33.economic plea. You do what you have to do for the national interest. I
:56:33. > :56:43.believe it is right to be working with the Conservatives to sort out
:56:43. > :56:43.
:56:44. > :56:48.the mess we inherited. In the past we benefited from protest, UKIP
:56:48. > :56:53.benefit from protest now. I understand why people are anxious
:56:53. > :56:56.about the future, eating is an uncertain time. But when it comes
:56:56. > :57:02.to selecting a government people will think about jobs and the
:57:03. > :57:07.economy. Being part of a big single market, we are a trading nation, it
:57:07. > :57:13.is really important we can sell our goods into Europe without tariff
:57:13. > :57:16.barriers. But we need to be thinking about trading with the
:57:16. > :57:23.world and not just the European Union. I think we could do that
:57:23. > :57:29.better by pulling out. If the Labour vote goes up and you lose
:57:29. > :57:34.both to UKIP, you're in a difficult position, are due? The BBC is
:57:34. > :57:41.making a typically binary decision here that somehow only Conservative
:57:41. > :57:46.voters go to UKIP. There are many Labour voters who do that too, Lisa
:57:46. > :57:52.is right about that. My job as a politician is to do what I believe
:57:52. > :58:00.to be right in principle. I am not going to start moving because one
:58:00. > :58:10.particular political faction believes that above all else we
:58:10. > :58:13.
:58:13. > :58:23.need to come out of Europe. They Any volunteers to be Eric Pickles
:58:23. > :58:32.secret centre? -- secret Santa. Ongoing concerns over Kettering
:58:32. > :58:35.hospital caused an argument this week. I will not give way. I will
:58:35. > :58:45.not give way to the Honourable Member who has not done a great
:58:45. > :58:47.
:58:47. > :58:52.service to people in my constituency. We will never build a
:58:52. > :58:59.21st century economy on 19th century infrastructure. Christmas
:58:59. > :59:03.cheer as a campaign to cut the tax on beer came to Westminster. No
:59:03. > :59:07.sign yet of a goodwill gift for Nadine Dorries who are still
:59:07. > :59:14.waiting for the Conservatives were, but I think we know what Eric
:59:14. > :59:24.Pickles would like to see in his Christmas stocking. You are now
:59:24. > :59:24.
:59:24. > :59:27.more fondly disposed towards Essex than Yorkshire? Norman Lamb, 19th
:59:27. > :59:37.century infrastructure, we need better infrastructure to stimulate
:59:37. > :59:38.
:59:38. > :59:44.growth? I totally agree. Norfolk MPs are also making the case for
:59:44. > :59:48.investment in the A47. Lisa Duffy, living in the Fens you are not
:59:48. > :59:53.blessed with transport links. would like to see a better bus
:59:53. > :59:58.service. There are also improvements to the A14 which helps
:59:58. > :00:05.people. I would love to make sure that does not become a toll road.