:01:21. > :01:23.countdown to the county council elections - a referendum on the
:01:23. > :01:33.government. Or is a single local issue so controversial it could
:01:33. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :39:46.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2292 seconds
:39:46. > :39:49.of Sunday Politics. I'm Amelia Reynolds. Coming up: With less than
:39:49. > :39:51.a week to the local elections, could a single issue de-rail an entire
:39:52. > :39:54.council campaign? We'll be looking at the political
:39:54. > :40:04.battlegrounds across the region, and what about this campaign's dark
:40:04. > :40:15.
:40:15. > :40:20.horse - UKIP? A former insider voices concern. The policy. The lack
:40:20. > :40:25.of policy, the lack of detailed policies I think is a huge weakness.
:40:25. > :40:30.Let us meet our guests. Gavin Shuker is the Labour MP. Jonathan
:40:30. > :40:34.Djanogly, the Conservative MP for Huntingdon. The most important story
:40:34. > :40:39.is that of the triple-dip recession or not triple-dip recession. The
:40:39. > :40:42.interesting moment for you Gavin. You must be pleased that your
:40:42. > :40:45.constituency is seeing growth, but I bet you were looking forward to some
:40:45. > :40:48.political point scoring that that trouble that recession would have
:40:49. > :40:53.brought? That would have been the worst case scenario for my
:40:53. > :40:58.constituents. And across the East. The situation we have is not much
:40:58. > :41:01.better. Growth is flat over six months and there has been little
:41:01. > :41:09.increase since this government came to power. We need real action for
:41:09. > :41:13.growth. 0.3% is not a lot to shout about. Not a lot, but we are in a
:41:13. > :41:18.tough environment. We are not in recession. The rest of Europe is. If
:41:18. > :41:23.you look at the announcement this week in Spain with 27%
:41:23. > :41:28.unemployment, France at 11%. We are doing relatively well. We have
:41:28. > :41:31.treated a lot of new pirate sector jobs. If you look at this specific
:41:31. > :41:37.region be adding particularly well with our exports and our businesses
:41:37. > :41:42.are thriving. Not every Tory MP is impressed. The Northampton South MP,
:41:42. > :41:44.Brian Binley, wrote an article in the Telegraph this week in which he
:41:44. > :41:50.said the Chancellor has done little for small businesses and that the
:41:50. > :41:57.government could have done more to spur on the housing market. He said
:41:57. > :42:02.it was time for the Chancellor to be really bold. Jonathan, George
:42:02. > :42:05.Osborne is being too timid. Is that a fair criticism? We are in tough
:42:05. > :42:12.times and yes, more could be done. But this government has done a lot
:42:12. > :42:18.to reform things and especially providing capital to companies. We
:42:18. > :42:22.have cut a lot of regulation. I want to see more done. We are seeing more
:42:22. > :42:30.growth, Gavin, the government 's strategy is working. We should stick
:42:30. > :42:34.with that then? When you have the IMF saying that the government must
:42:34. > :42:40.change course, George Osborne should listen to this. Really bold action
:42:40. > :42:44.is required. What I do not believe is that we cannot be making bold
:42:44. > :42:50.action to make more deep cuts. We must help people with their living
:42:50. > :42:53.standards. When people go to the polls on Thursday, will it be the
:42:53. > :42:56.state of the economy that influences how they vote will it be local
:42:56. > :43:00.issues. In every county the continuing squeeze on council
:43:00. > :43:06.finances means there is a serious debate about what we can afford and
:43:06. > :43:11.what we cannot afford. And then they are the really local issues. In
:43:11. > :43:15.Norfolk, the Tories have a comfortable majority of 34%, we head
:43:15. > :43:19.of the Liberal Democrats, Greens and labour. You would expect the outcome
:43:19. > :43:22.of this year 's election to be predictable. There is one local
:43:22. > :43:28.issue that could bring the Conservatives down. Here is Andrew
:43:28. > :43:32.Sinclair. The outcome of the election in
:43:32. > :43:36.Norfolk probably will not be determined by a council cuts,
:43:36. > :43:42.austerity or the poor state of the County 's schools at by a piece of
:43:42. > :43:45.wasteland on the outskirts of King's Lynn. Plans for an incinerator here
:43:45. > :43:52.is set Conservative against conservative and angered the locals.
:43:52. > :43:56.It is a huge issue for me. Everyone is being completely ignored. There
:43:56. > :44:02.is no evidence of what an incinerator will do here. Why do
:44:02. > :44:07.they not have it in Norwich where the big population is instead of
:44:07. > :44:12.bringing it over here? Why do people feel strongly about this? We do not
:44:12. > :44:17.want it, it is being forced on us. There has not been such a divisive
:44:17. > :44:21.issue in Norfolk for a long time. 93% of locals voted against the
:44:21. > :44:25.plans in a referendum which the County Council refused to accepts.
:44:25. > :44:30.And the rest of the county where the Tories have many seats, this is the
:44:30. > :44:36.only issue in these local elections. The incinerator will cost nearly
:44:36. > :44:40.�600 million. That is approaching �750 for every person who lives in
:44:40. > :44:45.Norfolk. A huge sum of money to pay for something that is too large and
:44:45. > :44:54.frankly out of date. It should have gone to a planning inquiry in the
:44:54. > :44:57.first place. We think this was a wrong deal, the wrong company and
:44:57. > :45:02.the wrong side. The Saddlebow Incinerator was the idea of the
:45:02. > :45:05.Tories. Yes, it would be expensive, but it would stop tonnes of waste
:45:05. > :45:11.going to landfill. The council leader who championed it, Derrick
:45:11. > :45:14.Murphy, was forced to resign but his successor is behind the scheme.
:45:14. > :45:18.is difficult when you are involved in a project that does not have
:45:18. > :45:25.universal appeal, but we do have to remember that it will deliver
:45:25. > :45:28.savings of over �150,000 each week, which given the financial climate we
:45:28. > :45:33.find ourselves in, that is absolutely crucial to how we protect
:45:33. > :45:37.services in Norfolk. This incinerator at Teesside has been
:45:37. > :45:41.operating for 40 years with little public outcry, but with King's Lynn,
:45:41. > :45:46.the problem has been more than a debate about the Iranian -- rights
:45:46. > :45:49.and wrongs. There has been a feeling of secrecy and councillors have felt
:45:49. > :45:54.left out of the decision-making process. The contract with the
:45:54. > :45:58.developers has never been made fully public. The Greens say it is
:45:58. > :46:00.indicative of how the council is run. There are people there who
:46:00. > :46:04.voted in the referendum against the incinerator and they are still
:46:04. > :46:10.pressing ahead with those issues. They should state that smack they
:46:10. > :46:14.should take stock of the local people's opinions. While you can see
:46:14. > :46:19.if locals do not want it, why cannot invest in other forms of waste
:46:19. > :46:24.disposal? One needs to invest a portion of the money, not all of it,
:46:24. > :46:32.and to recycling, and to bio digesters and all the other
:46:32. > :46:37.technical operations. One does not need to burn everything. With all
:46:37. > :46:39.the opposition parties opposed to the incinerator and several other
:46:39. > :46:43.anti-incinerator candidate standing, known as too sure what
:46:43. > :46:48.will happen to the vote in north-west Norfolk. If the
:46:48. > :46:51.Conservatives lose enough seats, it could take the council to know
:46:51. > :46:55.overall control. The incinerator is now in the hands of a public
:46:55. > :46:58.inquiry. The Tories privately admit that on reflection this issue could
:46:58. > :47:03.have been handled much better, but the damage may have already been
:47:03. > :47:07.done. Joining us from our Norwich to do is
:47:07. > :47:13.Simon Wright, the Liberal Democrat MP for Norwich South. How big a deal
:47:13. > :47:16.as this incinerator owing to play in the Norfolk campaign? It is an
:47:16. > :47:23.enormously important issue. It is important for the residents of West
:47:23. > :47:27.North but also been -- all of the county, the reason being, it shows
:47:27. > :47:32.the Conservative County Council is being divided and out of touch with
:47:32. > :47:37.their people. A referendum showed that 90% of people were against that
:47:38. > :47:41.incinerator. If you are in favour of localism, as the Lib Dems are, that
:47:41. > :47:48.sends a very clear signal. cannot have localism without
:47:48. > :47:52.nimbyism it seems. I do not agree. Localism is about consultation and
:47:52. > :47:58.speaking and engaging with the residents. If necessary, building a
:47:58. > :48:01.consensus around the proposal. In the County Council 's case they have
:48:01. > :48:06.failed to do that and it shows the Conservatives as arrogant and out of
:48:06. > :48:09.touch. You will never get consensus for an incinerator and if no one
:48:09. > :48:14.took big and difficult decisions, nothing controversial would ever get
:48:14. > :48:19.built. I am not in favour of incinerators in general, they are a
:48:19. > :48:23.bad way of dealing with our waste. We must look at other of --
:48:23. > :48:26.options. A special those with zero emissions. Other parts of the
:48:26. > :48:30.country are doing this and you must hear in mind that waste technology
:48:30. > :48:34.is one of the fastest developing areas of technology and we can get
:48:34. > :48:39.benefits by looking at other forms of dealing with this waste.
:48:39. > :48:43.Jonathan, there are always sticking points in every constituency. The
:48:43. > :48:47.Conservatives, with their localism agenda, what seems to be happening
:48:47. > :48:52.is that they are promising things but not delivering stop that is the
:48:52. > :48:57.nature of localism. Decisions will be moved down... So it does not
:48:57. > :49:01.work? Well, in my constituency it would be wind turbines. Six large
:49:01. > :49:08.applications came in and they have been in areas that the local
:49:08. > :49:12.residents do not want them to be. I have been supporting my constituents
:49:12. > :49:16.but the district council supports them and then it goes to an inquiry
:49:16. > :49:23.outwith the area which overturns the refusal. Localism seems to be going
:49:23. > :49:26.back up the line and that needs to look at. Gavin, what did you think?
:49:26. > :49:30.Simon and Jonathan are talking like commentators. They are in
:49:30. > :49:35.government. This was a problem made by the government. They promised
:49:35. > :49:38.localism but did not acknowledge the fact that sometimes big decisions
:49:38. > :49:41.need to be taken in the national interest. I am not good to see there
:49:41. > :49:46.is not a role for energy from waste but it feels that this community
:49:46. > :49:49.believes their future is going to be blighted by this incinerator and the
:49:49. > :49:56.local council must take an interest. The Labour Party is about top-down
:49:56. > :50:00.targets. That was not popular either. By the end of our time in
:50:00. > :50:03.government we reached a good place. We said was a need for big
:50:03. > :50:07.infrastructure but we ensured planning permission to make sure it
:50:07. > :50:15.went ahead in the correctly says. You could end up with incinerators
:50:15. > :50:17.six miles apart with this government 's strategy. Jonathan, we have
:50:17. > :50:21.Conservatives fighting Conservatives, never comfortable,
:50:21. > :50:27.especially in the run-up to a local election. We do not do that in
:50:28. > :50:31.Cambridgeshire, of course! The serious point is that hand in hand
:50:31. > :50:39.with localism, you need higher levels of consultation and an early
:50:39. > :50:42.engagement. Perhaps more like what they were used to in the past. Local
:50:42. > :50:50.people get these projects thrown onto them sometimes and that is when
:50:50. > :50:53.they get upset. We must engage with them at a much earlier level.
:50:53. > :51:00.just a few days until people go to the polls. How do you think this
:51:00. > :51:04.will play out? I am feeling very positive about our chances. We have
:51:04. > :51:08.candidates united in the belief that we need to do more for a stronger
:51:08. > :51:13.economy and a fair society. What about the incinerator and the impact
:51:13. > :51:18.on Conservatives? The incinerator goes against that principle. It
:51:18. > :51:21.locks the council into a 25 year deal when they do not know the
:51:21. > :51:24.long-term economic consequences of it and it is not building a fairer
:51:24. > :51:28.society when you impose something that is opposed by many people.
:51:28. > :51:33.Thank you. More from all of you in just one moment.
:51:33. > :51:37.That is Norfolk. In previous weeks we have looked at the picture in
:51:37. > :51:41.Essex and Northamptonshire, so how is the rest of the region shaping
:51:41. > :51:44.up? In Cambridgeshire, the Conservatives are not as solid as
:51:44. > :51:49.they are in the more easterly counties of the region and this is
:51:49. > :51:53.the only county in the east that is of real concern that smack real
:51:53. > :51:59.conservative Lib Dem battleground. The Lib Dems are confident of
:51:59. > :52:04.gaining seats. It is harder for Labour to gain even foothold here
:52:04. > :52:08.since Peter brass plaque off of this region. At the two have higher
:52:08. > :52:11.hopes. Southwark is a Tory stronghold but the Lib Dems are
:52:11. > :52:15.choosing those Conservative seats, hoping to strengthen their position.
:52:15. > :52:18.Although the Labour Party only has four seats, they are confident of
:52:18. > :52:24.big games this time. Ipswich is their big target followed by
:52:24. > :52:29.Waverley. Hertfordshire is also a county that has been governed mostly
:52:29. > :52:34.by the Tories. Nevertheless, Labour has had massive support and was only
:52:34. > :52:39.overtaken by the Lib Dems in 2009. All three parties are contesting a
:52:39. > :52:45.number of marginal seats. We will be particularly interested in looking
:52:45. > :52:51.at these elections because they are the first stand-alone ones for 20
:52:51. > :52:54.years. Upon those will probably be lower. There is the Lib Dem vote to
:52:54. > :53:00.consider that while at return or continue to desert them? The
:53:00. > :53:04.biggest? Hangs over the growing support for how UKIP will play out
:53:04. > :53:10.in debt East. There is the suggesting they have more support
:53:10. > :53:16.here than anywhere else in the country. David Campbell Bannerman,
:53:16. > :53:21.the former deputy leader of UKIP, talks to us.
:53:21. > :53:27.One of the reasons I left UKIP was because I do not feel that smack now
:53:27. > :53:30.be at it is heading. It does pick up votes and I do not knock it. I agree
:53:30. > :53:33.with its position to leave the European Union but it has no plans
:53:33. > :53:40.to leave the EU. It is years away from being considered as a series
:53:40. > :53:46.government party. You build up clusters of this yet County Council
:53:46. > :53:48.seats and you build up areas of concentration and if you own county
:53:48. > :53:53.seats inside a parliamentary constituency, the perception
:53:53. > :53:58.changes. It goes from people liking you and then believing that you can
:53:58. > :54:03.actually win. I make no bones about it, the 2nd of May in East Anglia is
:54:03. > :54:08.very important for UKIP. Johnson, how big a threat is UKIP to
:54:08. > :54:12.the Tories? The battleground in Cambridgeshire is basically between
:54:12. > :54:21.the Conservatives and the Lib Dems. The story is the implosion of the
:54:21. > :54:25.Lib Dems. Where is their vote going to go? We are seeing a lot of the
:54:25. > :54:33.Lib Dem vote go to UKIP. That may seem bizarre, considering the
:54:33. > :54:38.European stance, but actually, it is a protest vote. The Lib Dems as a
:54:38. > :54:42.protest for and they are going to UKIP. We will see an increase in the
:54:42. > :54:47.UKIP vote, but I do not see them making many games. Simon Wright, let
:54:47. > :54:53.me bring you in. The Johnson has said it is not looking good for you
:54:53. > :55:00.in Cambridge. Or Cambridgeshire, rather. Certainly in the canvassing
:55:00. > :55:03.I have been doing in Norfolk, I have been not knocking the doors in
:55:03. > :55:07.Cambridgeshire, but I have not been getting any sense that UKIP are
:55:07. > :55:14.getting more support of the back of the Lib Dems. We have seen a trend
:55:14. > :55:17.where UKIP have done better than other things. There have been
:55:18. > :55:23.individual elections that you can point to, but when you look at the
:55:23. > :55:27.set of by-elections that took place over 2012 and this year, the Lib
:55:27. > :55:32.ends have been net gainers in those by-elections and we held on to the
:55:32. > :55:36.Eastleigh by-election in what were the most pressing circumstances for
:55:36. > :55:39.my party. We can be upbeat about our chances in this election where we
:55:39. > :55:42.have candidates that have been working in their communities and
:55:42. > :55:47.dealing with the issues that people have been raising with them. The
:55:47. > :55:50.problem UKIP will have is that, yes, they can talk about Europe and
:55:50. > :55:57.immigration, but on the issues that are happening on people 's play
:55:57. > :56:02.match streets and neighbourhoods. That they have very little to say.
:56:02. > :56:07.Their message seems to resonate with old Labour supporters. UKIP 's
:56:07. > :56:15.message can resonate with many different supporters, not least
:56:15. > :56:18.those who voted Lib Dems previously. What I would say is that they are
:56:18. > :56:23.going to have to do incredibly well in this set of elections to meet
:56:23. > :56:27.their own expectations. They seem very bullish, but I would say you
:56:27. > :56:33.need a proper party of government if you want change pushed through.
:56:33. > :56:36.There is no evidence that UKIP are able to deliver on that. This is the
:56:36. > :56:40.first time that many people go to the polls to vote for UKIP
:56:40. > :56:46.candidates. It is the first time for 20 years that these County Council
:56:46. > :56:50.elections have ran without being run alongside national or European
:56:50. > :56:55.elections. What effect will that have on turnout? In terms of vision,
:56:55. > :56:59.UKIP is going on to the doorstep is talking about Romanian and Bulgarian
:56:59. > :57:04.elements and whether we should be in Europe. If you are concerned about
:57:04. > :57:09.controlling immigration or if you want in and out referendum, you vote
:57:09. > :57:13.Conservative. More specifically, what we are trying to do is put a
:57:13. > :57:18.positive message on the doorstep, that if you want the best cycle
:57:18. > :57:23.routes in England. If you want to have an A14 that is going to be the
:57:23. > :57:26.main strategic route for our region, you vote Conservative. Good points,
:57:26. > :57:36.but you stand to lose lots of seats this time around. I do not believe
:57:36. > :57:38.
:57:38. > :57:44.so. They are in mind in 2009, that was a high watermark. You will seem
:57:44. > :57:48.some natural change. Gavin, Labour must do very well. You are coming
:57:48. > :57:56.from such a low base. You saw the make up of those particular
:57:57. > :58:04.councils. We probably will not do as well as we did last time but we must
:58:04. > :58:09.get the support for 2015. I think the Labour Party will do well. We
:58:09. > :58:16.have some great candidates. Simon Wright, these local elections are
:58:16. > :58:21.very important for parties' Ralph. Do you think the morale of the Lib
:58:21. > :58:25.Dems is good to take another battering? No, I do not. I think the
:58:25. > :58:29.morale of our party is reflected by the activity on the streets. I have
:58:29. > :58:34.been out with candidates in Norfolk who were knocking on doors and
:58:34. > :58:37.putting out leaflets and speaking to voters, getting good feedback from
:58:37. > :58:41.the results of their positive activity. They are building teams
:58:41. > :58:47.around them who are strong advocates for their communities. The Lib Dems
:58:47. > :58:51.are in a good mood and it comes off of the back of a positive local
:58:51. > :58:55.by-election result and we have also had defections to the Lib Dems from
:58:55. > :58:59.Conservatives in recent months. Those sort of moves actually helped
:58:59. > :59:04.to lift the party and put us in good spirits and we have a spring in our
:59:04. > :59:13.step coming towards these elections. What a very optimistic mood from all
:59:13. > :59:23.of you! Thank you all for joining This week's political round-up now.
:59:23. > :59:28.
:59:28. > :59:31.One of our MPs once the referendum on Europe sooner rather than later.
:59:31. > :59:36.When is a bedroom not a bedroom? When it is reclassified as the
:59:36. > :59:40.study, this avoiding the so-called bed and tax. And more money this
:59:40. > :59:46.week for extra ambulances and extra staff, but MPs still need convincing
:59:46. > :59:52.that the service will improve. know there have been issues over
:59:52. > :59:55.time in the East of England. It shows you why you need to get these
:59:55. > :59:59.decisions correct in the first place and we should not have to be
:59:59. > :00:05.correcting a problem that was made before. Concerns in Corby over the
:00:05. > :00:09.breakup of the Union cropped up in Scottish Questions this week.
:00:09. > :00:13.is a great example of the British family of nations and we should
:00:13. > :00:16.celebrate it. I would urge its constituents to tell their friends
:00:16. > :00:23.and families in Scotland to vote no in the referendum.
:00:23. > :00:29.The Southend MP reveals why it never of his family wants no delay on the
:00:29. > :00:37.Europe referendum. My mother will be 101 next Thursday! She wondered if
:00:37. > :00:41.the referendum could be brought forward.
:00:41. > :00:45.Gavin, you are cropping up all over the place on this programme! Should
:00:45. > :00:55.the EU referendum be brought forward, not just to oblige David a
:00:55. > :00:59.mess mother, but for the benefit of others? You cannot set AD -- you
:00:59. > :01:06.cannot set AD sometime in the future or bring it forward now. Do we need
:01:06. > :01:11.one? I do not believe so. Jonathan, should we bring it forward? We do
:01:11. > :01:14.need a referendum and David Cameron -- David Cameron his pop -- has
:01:14. > :01:18.promised one in the next Parliament. I would like to see one brought
:01:19. > :01:24.forward to this Parliament. I think that would weaken out the Labour and
:01:24. > :01:29.Lib Dem opposition and state clearly who is going to deliver it. Do your
:01:29. > :01:39.constituents bring it up on the doorstep? This issue? Not to the
:01:39. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:46.extent that UKIP do! Yes, it is an issue. People are more concerned
:01:46. > :01:48.about the nature of the economy, jobs, employment, living standards.
:01:48. > :01:53.These are related to our relationship with Europe. We should
:01:53. > :01:57.not be undermining that relationship. We can talk about it
:01:57. > :02:00.in the future but at the moment these guys need to get the country
:02:00. > :02:08.moving. They should focus on that. Let us finish on the economy.
:02:08. > :02:11.Jonathan, what should we do? We stay with the plan. We must change
:02:11. > :02:17.course, everyone is saying it and there is a reason for that. We need
:02:17. > :02:21.growth. Thank you both for joining me. That is all for now. You can
:02:21. > :02:26.keep in touch via our website. We will have a full rundown of the