:01:15. > :01:25.want going ahead because the contracts cost too much to ditch,
:01:25. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :40:16.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2330 seconds
:40:16. > :40:19.North Norfolk back Devon. The same in the East. I'm Etholle George.
:40:19. > :40:23.Coming up in your local part of the programme. The tale of the waste
:40:23. > :40:27.incinerator. Lots of people don't want it but it's going ahead because
:40:27. > :40:32.it's too expensive to break the contract. That's the story in Devon
:40:32. > :40:38.but the same thing could happen here.
:40:38. > :40:43.Basically, they let the community down, they fundamentally let the
:40:43. > :40:45.people of Plymouth and south-west Devon down.
:40:45. > :40:48.Plus, the mental health service in turmoil. Swingeing cuts to
:40:48. > :40:52.front-line services. �20 million savings and now without a Chief
:40:52. > :40:57.Executive. We are designing a service that is
:40:57. > :41:01.fit for purpose that we believe will provide the same, if not a better
:41:01. > :41:04.standard of care within the constraints of the environment that
:41:04. > :41:07.we are in. But first, our guests this week
:41:07. > :41:10.Kelvin Hopkins is the Labour MP for Luton North and Vicky Ford, a
:41:10. > :41:13.Conservative Member of the European Parliament for the east. Let's talk
:41:13. > :41:16.first about one of the biggest political stories this week. The
:41:16. > :41:23.South Suffolk MP Tim Yeo has stood aside as Chairman of the Energy and
:41:23. > :41:26.Climate Change Committee. While claims he used the role to help a
:41:26. > :41:29.private company influence Parliament are investigated. In a recording, he
:41:29. > :41:35.appears to suggest that he told a businessman what to say to his
:41:35. > :41:39.committee. So how serious is this for Tim Yeo? This is what the
:41:39. > :41:41.Conservative blogger Iain Dale thinks.
:41:41. > :41:46.If the Parliamentary standards committee finds against him, I think
:41:47. > :41:51.he's in a great deal of trouble. If you look at what has happened to
:41:51. > :41:59.Patrick Mercer, he resigned as the Conservative whip and it was fair
:42:00. > :42:06.called. We will see what happens. Tim Yeo may have to have the same
:42:06. > :42:13.view. He is denying it all, he has got to be given a fair hearing in a
:42:13. > :42:15.chair and is to clear his name. How serious is this for him? It is
:42:15. > :42:22.quite serious. We should have had a register of
:42:22. > :42:26.interests a long time ago. MPs get paid a salary to look after their
:42:26. > :42:30.constituents not to take money from companies to lobby for the
:42:30. > :42:34.interest. What is the situation in Europe for
:42:34. > :42:38.committee members like this? Committee members in Europe have an
:42:38. > :42:45.enormous amount of power because they help to shape legislation.
:42:45. > :42:49.There is a declaration of interest. As British Conservatives, when I was
:42:49. > :42:54.first elected in 2009, we did not think that were strong enough. I now
:42:54. > :42:58.disclose every meeting that I have if it has been set up with a
:42:59. > :43:01.business and people can look at that on my website. Once every six months
:43:01. > :43:09.we disclose everybody that we have had a meeting with so you can see,
:43:09. > :43:13.in my view, it transparency is key. As an MP, had you feel about
:43:13. > :43:17.newspapers going about their business in this way?
:43:17. > :43:25.It is a little bit tasteless bed they can do me and they will not
:43:25. > :43:31.find that anything. I do believe we have got it wrong. 2500 years ago,
:43:31. > :43:34.Plato said those in government said that those in government should be
:43:34. > :43:36.people in gold who have no commercial interest.
:43:37. > :43:41.Tomorrow, councillors in Norfolk will vote on whether to scrap the
:43:41. > :43:46.planned waste incinerator for Kings Lynn. It's a huge project, worth
:43:46. > :43:49.�500 million and bitterly opposed by local people. The only people who
:43:49. > :43:55.seemed to want it were Conservatives on Norfolk County Council and now
:43:55. > :43:58.they've lost control at county hall. Simple you might think the new
:43:58. > :44:02.coalition can just scrap the project and walk away. But breaking the
:44:02. > :44:05.contract could cost �90 million. Andrew Sinclair has been to Plymouth
:44:05. > :44:08.where last year they faced the same dilemma.
:44:08. > :44:12.Beside the navy dockyard at Devonport - the new waste
:44:13. > :44:20.incinerator is taking shape. Despite years of protest and an election -
:44:20. > :44:22.the scheme is going ahead. Unlike Kings Lynn the site is next to
:44:23. > :44:26.hundreds of homes, in one of the most deprived areas of Devon,
:44:26. > :44:31.residents like Stuart Wilson look down on the work. It's pretty
:44:31. > :44:36.horrendous. The noise is deafening from eight in the morning until six
:44:36. > :44:42.at night. The house vibrates when they're using the heavy gear and it
:44:42. > :44:47.feels like being a prisoner in your own home. As with the Kings Lynn
:44:47. > :44:50.incinerator this was a controversial development. More than 6,000 people
:44:50. > :44:53.signed a petition against it but the Conservatives who were then in power
:44:53. > :44:59.dismissed the protest and approved the plans arguing that they would
:44:59. > :45:03.save the council �8 million a year. The issue dominated last year's
:45:03. > :45:08.local elections. Lots of people voted for Labour believing that
:45:08. > :45:14.they'd overturn the incinerator. When they got in they said there's
:45:14. > :45:23.nothing we can do. They let people of Plymouth and south west Devon
:45:23. > :45:26.down. Labour tried - as soon as it got into power here at the civic
:45:26. > :45:29.offices it commissioned an independent report but was told by
:45:29. > :45:36.the lawyers that to pull out now would leave it open to legal action
:45:36. > :45:46.and compensation payments of more than �400 million. The council
:45:46. > :45:47.
:45:47. > :45:51.leader said he was frustrated but there was nothing he could do.
:45:51. > :45:56.would bankrupt the city, �430 million we would be up for being
:45:56. > :46:02.sued for, it is not just the construction, it is the costs and
:46:02. > :46:09.profits of the company. Our neighbours, Devon and Torbay, are in
:46:09. > :46:12.this partnership. It's a sign of how sensitive an issue this still is
:46:12. > :46:14.here in Plymouth that no-one from the ruling Labour group would be
:46:14. > :46:18.interviewed for this film while the Conservatives told all their
:46:18. > :46:21.councillors not to speak to us. As one person said to me, this is still
:46:21. > :46:26.very controversial, feelings are still raw. Campaigners, though,
:46:26. > :46:30.argue that the council didn't try hard enough. It's really difficult
:46:30. > :46:37.once you've signed the contract but I think you can go to Europe or go
:46:37. > :46:42.to court and find ways to say this is the wrong solution. And history
:46:42. > :46:45.could be about to repeat itself again in Norfolk. Two weeks ago the
:46:45. > :46:50.council's scrutiny committee was told that to pull out of the Kings
:46:50. > :47:00.Lynn waste contract could cost the authority �80-90 million.
:47:00. > :47:02.
:47:02. > :47:08.Councillors accused officers of scaremongering. We are just trying
:47:08. > :47:13.to make sure that the decision is made that is correct. We want to
:47:13. > :47:16.make sure that members are fully informed.
:47:16. > :47:19.Incinerators take a long time to plan and build; companies know that
:47:19. > :47:21.councils change hands that's why they build harsh penalty clauses
:47:21. > :47:25.into their contracts. The Government gives very generous grants towards
:47:25. > :47:28.schemes like this - cash strapped councils don't want to have to give
:47:28. > :47:32.the money back. I don't trust politicians any more I see them as
:47:32. > :47:38.people who are out for a career rather than out for the original
:47:38. > :47:47.meaning of a politician which is to represent local people. In Plymouth
:47:47. > :47:56.the row over their incinerator has left a very sour taste.
:47:56. > :47:58.The Northwest MP Henry Bellingham joins us from Norwich. You've
:47:58. > :48:04.campaigned hard to stop this incinerator, but you can't deliver
:48:04. > :48:08.can you? I think we can certainly deliver. We
:48:08. > :48:12.haven't seen the contract and the first in the council must do is
:48:12. > :48:19.actually disclose the contract in full so we can all see it. To some
:48:19. > :48:22.extent, we are flying blind. If there is an escape clause for the
:48:22. > :48:27.council to pull out if there is a change of control, if events beyond
:48:27. > :48:32.their control take place, they should be an escape clause. What I
:48:32. > :48:41.would argue if there isn't, there are other ways of mitigating this
:48:41. > :48:51.cost that the government could talk to Northwick county council --
:48:51. > :48:51.
:48:51. > :48:56.Norfolk county council. Why should the government step in?
:48:56. > :49:03.I'm not saying that the government should rescue the county council if
:49:03. > :49:12.there is the ability to liquidate the damages beyond 20 million yen if
:49:12. > :49:19.they are legally enforceable, it is hardly like lead that they are.
:49:19. > :49:29.To inflict damages against Norfolk county council would be counter
:49:29. > :49:30.
:49:30. > :49:33.reductive. We suggest an independent report looks at this. Also looking
:49:33. > :49:38.at what alternative technologies might be available. When we have all
:49:38. > :49:47.of the information, the councils can take an informed decision.
:49:48. > :49:50.Do you feel that you're letting your constituents down?
:49:50. > :50:00.16,500 people voted against an incinerator. I made a pledge to do
:50:00. > :50:00.
:50:00. > :50:05.all of -- all that I could to stop it. Everybody campaign on a pledge
:50:05. > :50:11.to stop the incinerator. We cannot betray the public. We cannot break
:50:11. > :50:16.election pledges. Now there is the talk of a �90
:50:16. > :50:19.million fee to pay if the contract does not go again. Bjork public a
:50:19. > :50:27.letdown at this stage. You are talking about the reports of
:50:27. > :50:34.90 million. Where has the report coming from? It seems to have been
:50:34. > :50:37.plucked from the air. Every incinerator is different. Every
:50:37. > :50:42.contract is different. Norfolk county council spent �3 million on
:50:42. > :50:46.accountancy and legal advice free tailor-made contract. We need to see
:50:46. > :50:48.the contract and have experts will get it to see if there is an escape
:50:48. > :50:54.clause in to see whether there is going to be a possibility of damage
:50:54. > :50:57.is more than 20 million. What message does this say about
:50:57. > :51:02.Conservatives in power, we have had a Tory county council fighting with
:51:02. > :51:07.a Tory district Council the end a Tory MP fighting with the county
:51:07. > :51:12.council, what does this say about Tories?
:51:12. > :51:18.We campaign for what our electorate wanted. I think this is about
:51:18. > :51:21.localism, local democracy, it is about listening to people, in all of
:51:21. > :51:26.the report and going on, talking about large figures, even if the
:51:26. > :51:34.figure was at the higher end of what has been speculated, around about
:51:34. > :51:44.five, six or 7%. If the worst comes to the worst, I think this will be
:51:44. > :51:53.
:51:53. > :51:57.enforceable over the 20 million. We have to stand by our voters.
:51:57. > :52:01.Where do you stand with it? It is a long way away from my constituency.
:52:01. > :52:06.As I understand it, the company involved at this stage has walked
:52:06. > :52:12.away from the scheme. There is some doubt whether the scheme will go
:52:12. > :52:16.ahead. I'm not completely informed of the detail but clearly, I think
:52:16. > :52:21.the problem is that the local authorities, especially district
:52:21. > :52:26.councils commit themselves to vast contracts and there is a change of
:52:26. > :52:34.control, can they commit when I have campaigned against something?
:52:34. > :52:44.Vicky Ford, isn't it Europe that has opposed these landfill taxes. The
:52:44. > :52:50.
:52:50. > :52:57.landfill tax is one issue, we hate landfill which is why we recycle.
:52:58. > :53:00.The issue is here that local people, be that Bedfordshire, Norfolk or
:53:00. > :53:03.Hertfordshire, the people that live next to them do not like them and
:53:04. > :53:09.they do not want them. The hearts and minds of the people in the UK
:53:09. > :53:13.are not on the side of the incinerator. I wonder it bit, we
:53:13. > :53:17.have announced a change to wind turbine policy that if you do agree
:53:17. > :53:21.to one, the local people see financial benefit. I wonder, whether
:53:21. > :53:26.or not we need to think about that. Much more of how you win the hearts
:53:26. > :53:29.and minds of local people. Is there a enough help available for local
:53:29. > :53:37.councillors? I do not think so.
:53:37. > :53:47.Central government must have some role in this. I think there is
:53:47. > :53:55.
:53:55. > :53:58.something fundamentally wrong. Fears are growing that big cuts in
:53:58. > :54:01.spending could harm the care of mental health patients living in
:54:01. > :54:03.Norfolk and Suffolk. The NHS Trust which covers the area, provides care
:54:03. > :54:07.for everything from substance misuse to learning disabilities. But 500
:54:07. > :54:09.jobs are expected to go, as the trust tries to save �40 million and
:54:09. > :54:13.now its chief executive has resigned. All mental health trusts
:54:13. > :54:15.are having to make big savings but nowhere in the east is facing cuts
:54:15. > :54:19.on this scale. Kim Riley reports. Former teacher and Libby Sooter has
:54:19. > :54:23.complex mental health problems. The nine years the Norfolk eating
:54:23. > :54:30.disorders Association has been her lifeline. I would not be here if it
:54:30. > :54:36.wasn't for the charity. Absolutely. Totally. Not a shadow of
:54:36. > :54:46.a doubt. Libby says that under the dress she
:54:46. > :54:48.
:54:48. > :54:52.had 11 could care coordinators -- 11 care coordinators. The trust is a
:54:52. > :54:57.big operation, employing some 4500 staff across Norfolk and Suffolk. It
:54:57. > :55:00.caters for their whole range of mental health problems from
:55:00. > :55:10.depression to schizophrenia. The growing challenge of dementia as
:55:10. > :55:13.
:55:13. > :55:19.well. Health sent -- health secretary Jeremy Hunt went to. There
:55:19. > :55:25.are plans to to close 24 beds at this building in Lowestoft. It can't
:55:25. > :55:27.get any worse, we have got a wonderful facility here that has
:55:27. > :55:33.been vandalised and ripped apart for no good reason.
:55:33. > :55:43.It is terrible, to see this happen. On the other end, the acute section
:55:43. > :55:49.is also under threat. Edwin Thomas has announced his
:55:49. > :55:56.resignation. Getting the best price for
:55:56. > :56:02.everything was going too far. What impact is this going to have four
:56:02. > :56:06.people getting back in two employment. The assurance I can give
:56:06. > :56:10.you is that we are designing a purpose that is fit for the purpose.
:56:10. > :56:12.We believe it will provide the same, if not better standard of care
:56:12. > :56:21.within the constraints of the financial environment that we are
:56:21. > :56:30.I know that places like here are funded or part funded by the NHS and
:56:30. > :56:34.they need a bit of cash, a big chunk gone means that cutting services and
:56:34. > :56:38.these people are the only people that help.
:56:38. > :56:41.Libby Sooter ending that report by Kim Riley. Earlier, we put some of
:56:41. > :56:44.those points to Health Minister and North Norfolk MP, Norman Lamb. He
:56:44. > :56:51.said the cuts to jobs and services may have to be reconsidered.
:56:51. > :56:57.I think it's incumbent on the board to review in the light of this
:56:57. > :57:02.decision the course of action they are taking. What is striking is that
:57:02. > :57:07.other trust along the country are not taking the sort of action. We
:57:07. > :57:11.are not seeing proposals for significant job losses elsewhere. It
:57:11. > :57:17.may be that there is a problem with overspending in the past, maybe, as
:57:17. > :57:21.they have said, taking clear, decisive action now to redesign the
:57:21. > :57:27.way that services are provided. It is very clear, actually, that what
:57:27. > :57:31.we need to be doing is reducing the length of time people stay in
:57:31. > :57:35.patient beds in hospital because, generally, that is not good for the
:57:35. > :57:39.individual. Vicky Ford, despite the move to
:57:39. > :57:44.treat more people at home, we are going to see more people requiring
:57:44. > :57:47.mental health services if only because of the ageing population.
:57:47. > :57:51.The good news is we are living longer the bad news is that there
:57:51. > :57:56.are more people with dementia. My understanding is that one of the
:57:56. > :58:00.things that we want to see is more help to keep those people at home
:58:00. > :58:06.with support packages at home and therefore looking at how many in
:58:07. > :58:11.beds you need. These initial consultation was very rushed, people
:58:11. > :58:15.do not feel consulted, it is now being pulled back again, there is a
:58:15. > :58:21.new chairman and there will be a new chief executive. We need to listen
:58:21. > :58:27.to local people and reconsider. These principles of cutting
:58:27. > :58:30.services, this was your party? My understanding is looking at how you
:58:30. > :58:34.look at services. Because of the increased demand, had
:58:34. > :58:37.you look at having the money that you have got go further because of
:58:37. > :58:42.the ageing population. What you're seeing, there is more money being
:58:42. > :58:46.spent on the NHS, today, then there was under the Labour government.
:58:46. > :58:49.There was also increased demand because we are living longer. I
:58:49. > :58:53.don't want to stop us from living longer but we need to make sure you
:58:53. > :58:57.get the service is right. A Labour government would have to do the same
:58:57. > :59:04.thing? If it was a Labour government, I
:59:04. > :59:14.would be pressing to spend more. I'm relieved that the cuts are not so
:59:14. > :59:20.far affecting local health services in my area. Or anybody else's.
:59:20. > :59:27.On the whole, it is in those services, Maya understanding is that
:59:27. > :59:32.this would put the purpose of this review, is to look at how you
:59:32. > :59:40.deliver more in the community. Is there a way to do this better, are
:59:40. > :59:45.you doing better it in Luton? I don't know, but certainly things
:59:45. > :59:55.are not as bad as they are in Luton. -- they're not as bad in
:59:55. > :00:01.Luton. If there were these cats we would not see these problems. --
:00:01. > :00:05.cuts. We are living longer so the costs
:00:05. > :00:11.are getting higher and higher. We have defined other ways to deliver
:00:11. > :00:14.because we all want to have the best treatment.
:00:14. > :00:24.We are still seeing understaffing in hospitals and we're still seeing
:00:24. > :00:36.
:00:36. > :00:44.night nurses at too low a level. Here is a 62nd round up of fingers.
:00:44. > :00:48.-- 62nd round up of the news. The reviewing the performance ran to 31
:00:48. > :00:52.pages assessing all aspects of the service on or on all accounts it
:00:52. > :00:55.failed. It's time we got behind a new
:00:55. > :01:01.management and part of that is investing in the frontline of the
:01:01. > :01:03.ambulance trust. The Peterborough MP met the Health Secretary over �37
:01:03. > :01:11.million debts at the city's new hospital.
:01:11. > :01:16.It may have do lose staff and services. It is a great health care
:01:17. > :01:21.facility and it will remain open which is reassuring.
:01:21. > :01:25.Keith Simpson on the panel advising the government on World War I
:01:25. > :01:29.commemorations. There are going to be those that
:01:29. > :01:34.will say we must not forget the fact that we went to war for very good
:01:34. > :01:44.reasons and in many respects we were right. Others will say the opposite.
:01:44. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :01:52.A bit of political heave Ho for Louise -- Therese Coffey.
:01:52. > :01:57.Raising money for Macmillan support. Let's talk about the World War I
:01:57. > :02:02.commemorations. What will be the situation in other countries?
:02:02. > :02:12.I hope there will be a time when we will remember, that we do not want
:02:12. > :02:14.
:02:14. > :02:18.to go back to a situation of conflict on the conflict continent .
:02:18. > :02:23.I think there will be a time for reflection. Clearly, we are in the
:02:23. > :02:27.massive review of our relationship with Europe. I want that to be a
:02:27. > :02:34.piece will review and not an acrimonious, expensive one. How
:02:34. > :02:37.should we commemorate this, Kevin? The war was about the appalling
:02:37. > :02:44.depths of people. The right and wrong of the war another here nor
:02:44. > :02:50.there. -- are neither here nor there.
:02:50. > :02:56.Clearly, it is important that we mark these commemorations. Yes,