:01:18. > :01:21.leads the way in the government 's plans to reduce reoffending. A
:01:21. > :01:31.private company is now paid by results to keep former prisoners out
:01:31. > :01:31.
:01:31. > :37:38.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2166 seconds
:37:38. > :37:41.programme. I am Etholle George. It has been described as a revolution
:37:41. > :37:45.in the way that we manage offenders. Forging the way ahead is
:37:45. > :37:50.Peterborough Prison. Probation officers warn that the government is
:37:50. > :37:53.gambling with the public's safety. This could be cataclysmic. The speed
:37:53. > :37:58.at which it is being done is not good. There is no evidence that this
:37:58. > :38:01.will work. Plus the referendum vote on EU
:38:01. > :38:07.membership. We speak to a business who thinks we would be better off
:38:07. > :38:11.out of it. If we are not in the EU, they will still want to trade with
:38:11. > :38:15.us and their businesses will still want to trade with us.
:38:15. > :38:19.Let us meet our guests. Richard Howitt, MEP for the East and David
:38:19. > :38:23.Campbell Bannerman who as a Conservative MEP. Let us talk about
:38:23. > :38:28.this bill that passed its first hurdle on Friday to allow a
:38:28. > :38:32.referendum on whether or not we want to leave the EU. Our region has a
:38:32. > :38:37.lot of links with Europe. Not only is it geographically close, it is a
:38:37. > :38:42.big trading partner and the home for more short-term migrants than almost
:38:42. > :38:47.anywhere else in Britain. Not surprisingly, a lot of our MEPs were
:38:47. > :38:52.present for Friday's debate. Luton's Kelvin Hopkins got a loud
:38:52. > :38:58.cheer when he said he would be supporting the bill. Many other MPs
:38:58. > :39:04.for the East made their views clear. This is an issue about trust between
:39:05. > :39:09.politicians and general and the British electorate, giving that too
:39:09. > :39:12.many promises have been broken in the past, including Labour's
:39:12. > :39:20.promises about a referendum when it came to the EU constitution on
:39:20. > :39:24.Lisbon. Richard Howitt, is this a serious attempt to give more say to
:39:24. > :39:32.the British public or is it about that bench pressure and pressure
:39:32. > :39:35.from backbenchers in the East? was little over one year ago that
:39:35. > :39:41.the David Cameron march through the same division lobby saying that this
:39:42. > :39:46.referendum could be damaging. Mr Hague told the Commons on Friday
:39:46. > :39:48.that a referendum would not solve anything and it would be damaging to
:39:48. > :39:53.jobs in business and southernly because of that pressure they have
:39:53. > :39:58.been forced to rush through this Private Members' Bill which as an
:39:58. > :40:01.absorbed way to deal with the issue. They all went off to a barbecue at
:40:01. > :40:07.the Downing Street to have their sausages and burgers. This is all
:40:07. > :40:16.about David Cameron seeing a split Tory Party under threat from UKIP
:40:16. > :40:19.and rewarding has Eurosceptic backbenchers! You represented UKIP
:40:19. > :40:24.before you defected to the Conservatives. Is it about heading
:40:24. > :40:29.off the threat from UKIP? I do not think it is. What Richard has not
:40:29. > :40:34.said is that the great majority of the British people want a referendum
:40:34. > :40:38.and Kate Hoey in the debate on Friday said that the majority of
:40:38. > :40:42.Labour Party members want a referendum. It is not just about
:40:42. > :40:46.Conservatives and this is why I have come back from UKIP because I think
:40:46. > :40:53.a referendum is the correct way forward. Why can it not be a
:40:54. > :40:58.government bill? The in-house referendum is officially their
:40:58. > :41:02.policy but they have blocked it so we have to do it by a Private
:41:02. > :41:06.Members' Bill. I think it is very important, it is what the majority
:41:06. > :41:10.of people want to see and I am delighted by it. Thank you. More on
:41:10. > :41:14.Europe later but let us move on to the pilot scheme for former
:41:14. > :41:19.offenders at Peterborough Prison. It is part of a huge shake-up going on
:41:19. > :41:21.in the probation service. As part of the government's reforms, private
:41:21. > :41:27.companies and charities will supervise rehabilitation for
:41:27. > :41:30.prisoners. They will receive payment by results if reoffending falls. The
:41:30. > :41:35.national probation service will only manage high risk offenders. Official
:41:35. > :41:44.figures stroll a slight drop in reoffending but critics believe this
:41:44. > :41:49.is putting the public at risk. You are on job-seeker's allowance?
:41:49. > :41:53.Making his mentor to help him with life on the outside, former prisoner
:41:53. > :41:56.Michael served time for attempted robbery and smashing a shop and
:41:56. > :42:01.though so he could go back to behind the bars to avoid being homeless. He
:42:01. > :42:05.is one of hundreds of repeat offenders on a pilot scheme to help
:42:05. > :42:11.them stay on the straight and narrow. If they had not been here,
:42:11. > :42:16.where do you think you would be now? Prison. It is a vicious circle. I
:42:16. > :42:20.would have come out and had nowhere to go, back onto the streets when I
:42:20. > :42:26.do not want to be. I would do something shifted like smashing shop
:42:26. > :42:29.window and get back into prison. More than half of all prisoners end
:42:29. > :42:33.up back in jail. The government is banking on this pilot to work so
:42:33. > :42:37.that it can be rolled out nationally as part of its so-called
:42:37. > :42:42.rehabilitation revolution. Inside the Bregier, prisoners identified to
:42:42. > :42:46.go on the pilot are talking -- are told about this new service and how
:42:46. > :42:50.it is aimed to break the cycle of reoffending. The pilot has recorded
:42:50. > :42:53.a slight drop in reoffending so far. The plan is for businesses and
:42:53. > :43:01.voluntary organisations to be rewarded with payments if they
:43:01. > :43:06.succeed. They can try to help people who are addicted to alcohol and
:43:06. > :43:10.drugs. They will be given mentor 's for emotional support. It is all
:43:10. > :43:16.part of a bigger picture. Privatisation of the probation
:43:16. > :43:19.service, with companies like G4S supervising the 200,000 or so low to
:43:19. > :43:25.medium risk offenders and the state-run probation service handling
:43:25. > :43:28.the 50,000 most dangerous offenders. I think this is cataclysmic. It is
:43:28. > :43:33.the speed at which it is being done. There is no evidence that this will
:43:33. > :43:39.work. The government is playing a dangerous game and the public will
:43:39. > :43:43.be put at risk. The risk should never be a contractual matter and
:43:43. > :43:47.those other plans from the government to actually privatise the
:43:47. > :43:52.majority of the probation service in order to fund these supervisions of
:43:52. > :43:59.short-term custody. As long as you have people doing it for profit
:43:59. > :44:04.there is the real potential of risk being compromised by financial and
:44:04. > :44:10.business reasons. The danger is that risk changes all of the time and it
:44:10. > :44:15.is very difficult to tell when someone moves from being a low risk
:44:15. > :44:18.to a high risk. The probation service has expertise in that but
:44:18. > :44:20.they will be working for people on the lower end of the risk and they
:44:20. > :44:25.will not be able to recognise when that change happens.
:44:25. > :44:29.Critics argue the plan changes mean that provision will be on the cheap
:44:29. > :44:32.and that it is too rapid and the system is ill thought out. The
:44:32. > :44:35.government is looking for the Peterborough pilot to champion its
:44:35. > :44:39.case and said there is no going back, Spike Allam voiced in
:44:39. > :44:45.Parliament this week that the Justice Secretary has adopted an
:44:45. > :44:49.aggressive timetable. Earlier in the week, Andrew Sinclair
:44:49. > :44:51.met Jeremy Wright, the Minister for Prisons to discuss the changes to
:44:51. > :44:59.the probation service and he asked Mr Wright about the Peterborough
:44:59. > :45:03.pilot. With the intervention of a variety of different organisations
:45:03. > :45:06.and voluntary organisations with some mentoring, we can see a real
:45:06. > :45:10.change in the way in which reoffending is being brought down
:45:10. > :45:13.among that group, and that is very encouraging and gives us a good
:45:13. > :45:18.indication of what can be achieved across the country with our
:45:18. > :45:21.rehabilitation reforms. There is no extra funding for this project. You
:45:21. > :45:25.are relying on charities and volunteers to do this work. Is this
:45:25. > :45:30.the best way to deal with something that is a serious problem? We spend
:45:30. > :45:35.�1 billion each year on custodial disposals. I think that money could
:45:35. > :45:39.be spent better and I think it could be spent in such a way that we are
:45:39. > :45:44.able to bring in a very important and overlooked group of offenders
:45:44. > :45:50.with the highest reoffending rates. If we do that we will be able to do
:45:50. > :45:53.a great deal for the tax payer and we will be extending rehabilitation
:45:53. > :45:59.to more people. That must be the right approach. You are outsourcing
:45:59. > :46:04.low and medium risk offenders. The others will be retained by the
:46:04. > :46:08.public sector. Those in the now tell me that someone can go quite easily
:46:08. > :46:11.from being able to a high risk prisoner. With so many organisations
:46:11. > :46:17.involved is there not a danger that someone will slip through the net?
:46:17. > :46:22.It is true that people can change their risk profile and we must
:46:22. > :46:26.design a system capable of dealing with that. The public sector
:46:26. > :46:30.probation service must look after those who are at a higher risk of
:46:30. > :46:35.causing serious harm. If someone becomes of a higher risk they will
:46:35. > :46:39.be transferred to the other except probation service. If the provider
:46:39. > :46:47.dealing with them at the time... you sure this will happen? Yes it
:46:47. > :46:51.will. The assessment process will be done by the public sector. If that
:46:51. > :46:54.assessment changes, if there are warning signs or a change in
:46:54. > :46:58.behaviour, we will require the provider who is dealing with them
:46:58. > :47:02.more time to revert them back to the public sector probation service for
:47:02. > :47:08.another risk assessment. What kind of staff will these private
:47:08. > :47:12.companies recruit? It takes two years to train a probation officer.
:47:12. > :47:16.Will this mean the job will be downgraded? Anyone who would like to
:47:16. > :47:19.bid for one of these contracts and there are 21 areas in the country
:47:19. > :47:23.where these contracts will be available, anyone who wants to bid
:47:23. > :47:26.for this work will need to satisfy us that they will start with the
:47:26. > :47:30.appropriate skills and training. No one will get this work until they
:47:30. > :47:34.satisfy us in that regard and they will have to demonstrate to us that
:47:34. > :47:38.they are fit to take on this work. This is happening very quickly with
:47:38. > :47:43.an ambitious timescale. You want this in place by the end of next
:47:43. > :47:46.year. Is this realistic? There is a sense of urgency and this is a
:47:46. > :47:52.challenging timetable but it has been designed because the urgency
:47:52. > :47:56.here really is that every year at the moment 600,000 offences are
:47:56. > :48:03.committed by people who have previously committed eight offence.
:48:03. > :48:07.What about that timescale. We heard the former provision of us are
:48:07. > :48:13.saying at is cataclysmic, do you agree with that, David? You can see
:48:13. > :48:17.from the results there has been a drop in reoffending as opposed to a
:48:17. > :48:22.national average of a 16% rise in the offending. This is a successful
:48:22. > :48:28.pilot, let us see how it does. I think it is going in the rate
:48:28. > :48:33.direction and it could be a national model. Richard Howitt, fewer
:48:33. > :48:37.prisoners reoffending for less money, a good deal for the taxpayer?
:48:37. > :48:40.I know the people at Peterborough Prison and I have helped them some
:48:40. > :48:45.time ago and they have done some really excellent work where on
:48:45. > :48:51.literacy training for prisoners which can most often stop them
:48:51. > :48:55.reoffending. Privatising probation services, these are the people who
:48:55. > :49:00.the hole society, they are the people who monitor child abusers and
:49:00. > :49:07.sex offenders and this will begin to G4S, the people who made errors at
:49:07. > :49:11.the Olympics, they have completely failed. We should not focus on that
:49:11. > :49:15.particular company, they are not here to defend themselves. We are
:49:15. > :49:23.talking about a low-risk prisoners and medium risk prisoners. What is
:49:23. > :49:27.the problem with that staying within the probation service itself?
:49:27. > :49:30.Prisoners do not uniquely fit into different categories and we all
:49:30. > :49:33.remember the Soham tragedy where one police force did not share
:49:33. > :49:38.information with the other one. One of the real concerns about this
:49:38. > :49:41.arrangement is that of the will not have the proper information sharing
:49:42. > :49:48.and that dangerous people in our society may slip through the net.
:49:48. > :49:53.you disagree with that, David? does not apply to serious
:49:53. > :49:58.offenders. I would not call those serious offenders in that category.
:49:58. > :50:05.These are lighter offenders, not in that serious category and I think it
:50:05. > :50:11.is worthwhile overseeing this. crimes are you talking about?
:50:11. > :50:17.Obviously not murder and serious crimes. Which ones? Burglaries and
:50:17. > :50:24.so on. If you are a victim of a burglary you do not regard that as a
:50:24. > :50:29.light crime. I am just think that is another category. What about the
:50:29. > :50:33.aspects of training? It takes two years to train a probation officer,
:50:33. > :50:40.are you confident the training as resilient enough? As the Minister
:50:40. > :50:44.has made clear, there are standards and you will not lower them. The
:50:44. > :50:52.idea that you cannot make things work better in the public sector and
:50:52. > :50:58.public services as ridiculous. Unison or others should not be
:50:58. > :51:04.dictating the agenda. We have got to make these kind of initiatives
:51:04. > :51:07.because we are under enormous pressure. The Work Programme said
:51:07. > :51:10.give it to private providers, they will do it cheaper. Two years later
:51:10. > :51:15.they cannot do it and have come back to the government. That will happen
:51:15. > :51:19.on this issue as well. Back to Europe. The Dejan's
:51:19. > :51:23.Conservative MPs and one of its Labour MPs have voted for a
:51:23. > :51:27.referendum on Britain's membership of the EU. If it makes its way onto
:51:27. > :51:31.the statute books that could have that in or out referendum within the
:51:31. > :51:34.next four years. A few weeks ago we looked at the case for staying in
:51:34. > :51:39.the European Union. This week we have met some of the arguments
:51:39. > :51:42.against it. Andrew Howard runs the Peterborough logistics company PC
:51:42. > :51:48.Howard Ltd. They told us why he has changed his mind about staying in
:51:48. > :51:52.Europe. One of the biggest changes the
:51:52. > :51:57.impact on our industry is the upgrading of the emissions
:51:57. > :52:02.requirements for vehicles in the United Kingdom. We are going from
:52:02. > :52:06.Level five to six which means that for every vehicle you purchase at
:52:06. > :52:08.ten to �15,000 onto the top cost. Bearing in mind the number of
:52:08. > :52:13.vehicles we have that is a significant cost over the lifetime
:52:13. > :52:18.of the vehicle. Not only as we as an industry could do without it, the
:52:18. > :52:23.country could do without it. I just try to come out of the worst
:52:23. > :52:28.recession that we have ever had and here we are actually putting more
:52:28. > :52:31.costs onto the businesses and moving goods around the United Kingdom. My
:52:31. > :52:35.view has completely changed. 20 years ago if you had been talking to
:52:35. > :52:41.me I would have been in favour of being in the European Union and the
:52:41. > :52:46.potential that could give us. I only see one we know, to be honest. I
:52:46. > :52:50.cannot say negotiations working. There are 28 members, lots of them
:52:50. > :52:53.are small members and we are net contributor. Can you see on a
:52:53. > :52:57.majority voting basis that the jollity of them are going to vote to
:52:57. > :53:02.support us? It does not work and I cannot see how it will work for UK
:53:02. > :53:08.companies. Those who scare us with the stories that we will lose trade
:53:08. > :53:11.are misleading. We are the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world
:53:11. > :53:17.and the Europeans and the Southern Europeans were the market is
:53:17. > :53:21.limited, are they really going to put out a market on one-sided? Of
:53:21. > :53:25.course they are not. If we are not in the European Union they will
:53:25. > :53:29.still want to keep with us and their businesses will definitely want to
:53:29. > :53:33.take with us. All the time new things are coming into play. Whilst
:53:33. > :53:39.these new rules may be well intended and in principle may be OK, the
:53:39. > :53:43.timing is just unbelievable not only for our business but everyone who
:53:43. > :53:49.works for us because we must get the economy running and, again, we
:53:49. > :53:53.cannot afford to put barriers in place that slows everything down.
:53:53. > :54:00.There are changes in lots of different holiday pay, things like
:54:00. > :54:05.that. They all come into play and have an effect on a small business
:54:05. > :54:10.when someone is off and the rest of the team have to cover it.
:54:10. > :54:15.Definitely adds to the red tape and I have not seen any reduction in
:54:15. > :54:22.that over the recent years. Richard Howitt, we heard some of the case
:54:22. > :54:26.for coming out of Europe, what about staying in Europe? What are your
:54:26. > :54:31.main reasons for wanting to stay in Europe? The idea that we should have
:54:31. > :54:35.lower environmental standards that people should not have holidays or
:54:35. > :54:41.take time off to have a baby, these are great advantage is that we have
:54:41. > :54:45.for working in the European Union, and that is the shortcut way to
:54:45. > :54:51.dealing with this issue. Of course, things must change if we are going
:54:51. > :54:58.to continue to trade. But if we are going to trade with European Union
:54:58. > :55:02.we will pay the price if we are not part of it. It always costs more per
:55:02. > :55:07.capita so we will get all of the costs but none of the benefits.
:55:07. > :55:14.know about red tape and legislation and that it costs time and money.
:55:14. > :55:19.you have a heavy lorry running outside your road and the fumes have
:55:19. > :55:24.been the in by your children, you want higher environmental standards.
:55:24. > :55:29.That distribution company, we have to listen to them and I respect
:55:29. > :55:33.their point of view, it was only a few weeks ago we looked at a company
:55:33. > :55:38.in Norfolk that wants to export to the European Union and understands
:55:38. > :55:44.that every exports to the European Union are outside of it, we still
:55:44. > :55:47.must comply with the rules as far as exports go, so we will have one
:55:47. > :55:57.company meeting high standards and one not. There are high costs of
:55:57. > :55:57.
:55:57. > :56:01.that. It is �75 billion that we put into the pot in 2011 than the took
:56:01. > :56:07.out, that surely is a good reason for coming out? That is 1% of public
:56:07. > :56:12.spending. You can make it sound a large but look at the money that
:56:12. > :56:17.central government spends. That money should be well spent at
:56:17. > :56:21.whatever level. It is my job as a Member of the European Parliament to
:56:21. > :56:24.make sure it is spent in Europe but when I was talking last Friday at a
:56:24. > :56:29.meeting with the businesses and the enterprise partnerships in
:56:29. > :56:36.Hertfordshire and Cambridgeshire about how we will spend nearly �1
:56:36. > :56:40.billion of European funding in our region... Excuse me, let me bring
:56:40. > :56:48.back David Campbell Bannerman. did you make of that? There is a sea
:56:48. > :56:52.change. There has been ace change in the attitudes and I think the
:56:52. > :56:56.Referendum Bill as part of that. Personally, I would like to leave
:56:56. > :56:59.the European Union and I have argued for that. Have just come back from
:56:59. > :57:07.Norway and it is doing incredibly well. It has the lowest unemployment
:57:07. > :57:12.in Europe. It is the richest country per head in Europe and it has a
:57:12. > :57:16.welfare fund of 700 million dollars. Do we not want to be like that? We
:57:16. > :57:21.could have all of those advantages and still trade with the European
:57:21. > :57:23.Union. According to the polls at the moment, more people want to stay in
:57:23. > :57:32.the European Union than come out, so if there was a referendum you would
:57:32. > :57:36.lose. It depends on what polls you look at. We are trying to
:57:36. > :57:42.renegotiate but if we cannot get what we want, then we can negotiate
:57:42. > :57:45.an out deal in Switzerland and Norway. Switzerland is the third
:57:45. > :57:50.largest trading partner in the EU. It has full access to the EU market
:57:50. > :57:57.as we would, as Mr Howard's company would. Should people not have a
:57:57. > :58:00.choice? It is a huge mistake for us to leave the European Union. Why go
:58:00. > :58:05.down the road with something you disagree with.
:58:05. > :58:15.Talking of changes, nowadays it is all speed dating and action on
:58:15. > :58:16.
:58:16. > :58:21.Twitter. Deborah has been trying to keep up.
:58:21. > :58:24.This speed dating in Norwich was for social housing tenants hunting for
:58:25. > :58:29.new homes, so no romance in the air but signs of growth for the
:58:29. > :58:32.Chancellor on a visit to Northampton. They are making signs
:58:32. > :58:37.for other businesses that are opening new premises. That is
:58:37. > :58:41.encouraging. Encouragement for children to take up sport, the
:58:41. > :58:45.government is putting in �150 million as part of the Olympic
:58:45. > :58:50.legacy fund social media whipped up a storm this week when the MP for
:58:50. > :58:55.Harpal called for aid rector at Tesco to resign after he wrote a
:58:55. > :59:00.message on Twitter. The tweet was incredibly callous and almost sick
:59:00. > :59:04.because it basically says it celebrates the closing of the depot
:59:04. > :59:08.in Harlow. The only way is Essex it would seem
:59:08. > :59:15.as Sir Bob Russell as Heald as a style inspiration by another
:59:15. > :59:24.tweeter. Good Sir Bob Russell catch on? It could be a welcome addition
:59:24. > :59:31.to others or perhaps not! David Campbell Bannerman, would you
:59:31. > :59:36.consider that sort of your card? really! Richard, what about those
:59:36. > :59:44.Tesco workers in Harlow? Do they have the right to complain about
:59:44. > :59:49.that tweet? Yes. 800 people losing their job and Havel, I was
:59:49. > :59:55.devastated by the decision made by Tesco's. It has nothing to do with
:59:55. > :00:03.what! If you are a family unemployed in Harlow today the idea is
:00:03. > :00:10.revolting. Do you do business by Twitter, David? I do tweet. I think
:00:10. > :00:13.there has been a mistake made here. It has come across appalling and I
:00:13. > :00:19.deeply regret the loss of those jobs.