:00:40. > :00:46.Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU
:00:46. > :00:51.election? We talk to the Tory rebel demanding one next year, that is our
:00:51. > :00:54.top story. As government ministers prepare to decide how the press
:00:54. > :01:05.should be regulated, what will be You are talking about the colour of
:01:05. > :01:15.And in the East: The Home Office You are talking about the colour of
:01:15. > :02:01.And in the East: The Home Office find itself in a jam over foreign
:02:01. > :02:07.He will try to force a vote in the October. Home Secretary Theresa
:02:07. > :02:10.He will try to force a vote in the was asked about his plans on the BBC
:02:10. > :02:18.earlier this morning. I think he has got it wrong, I think what we need
:02:18. > :02:23.to do is to negotiate the settlement with the European Union and then put
:02:23. > :02:29.that to the people me to decide whether to be in or out. Is this a
:02:29. > :02:38.flea bite or a real threat? I think the next election, a Conservative
:02:38. > :02:40.Party that will be offering people that renegotiation, a new settlement
:02:41. > :02:46.with Europe, looking to the future and putting that to the British
:02:46. > :02:47.people in and in or out referendum. And what the amendment possibly
:02:48. > :02:51.could do, as James Wharton, who And what the amendment possibly
:02:51. > :02:56.putting the Referendum Bill through Parliament has said, is it could
:02:56. > :03:02.jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie joins us now from Millbank studio.
:03:02. > :03:06.Good morning. If the referendum would be held next October, it would
:03:06. > :03:13.have to be an in-out question based the status quo? There wouldn't be
:03:13. > :03:18.time for a full renegotiation. I disagree. By having a referendum in
:03:18. > :03:21.2014, it gives us 12 months to renegotiate, but it kick-started
:03:21. > :03:24.negotiations, because the European Union, if they wish us to remain
:03:24. > :03:27.and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate
:03:27. > :03:32.and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,
:03:32. > :03:36.strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time
:03:36. > :03:40.for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has
:03:40. > :03:44.not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our
:03:44. > :03:46.timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:46. > :03:52.think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:53. > :03:57.a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need
:03:57. > :03:58.certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for
:03:58. > :04:02.ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for
:04:02. > :04:06.conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is
:04:06. > :04:09.essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their
:04:09. > :04:13.souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That
:04:13. > :04:18.would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I
:04:18. > :04:20.said, it strengthens the Prime Minister's hand if it is successful.
:04:20. > :04:24.You right in the Mail on Sunday Minister's hand if it is successful.
:04:24. > :04:28.the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they
:04:28. > :04:32.don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I
:04:32. > :04:39.wrote for that piece. What I am You are saying that the British
:04:39. > :04:42.people are not convinced. Look, there are too many uncertainties
:04:42. > :04:46.here - they may not be convinced the Conservatives will win the election,
:04:46. > :04:47.I hope we will, they may not be convinced the renegotiation will be
:04:48. > :04:53.good enough, that there will be convinced the renegotiation will be
:04:53. > :04:58.referendum. Do you trust David That is why we need to bring the
:04:58. > :05:02.referendum forward, there is time to negotiate, and we tidy up the issue
:05:02. > :05:07.that has been hanging around for too long. Do you trust David Cameron to
:05:07. > :05:16.deliver a referendum in 2017? I Minister, and of course I trust
:05:16. > :05:17.deliver a referendum in 2017? I referendum? There as only variables
:05:17. > :05:21.in between. What I am doing with referendum? There as only variables
:05:21. > :05:24.this amendment, is to try to be referendum? There as only variables
:05:24. > :05:25.is that Parliament and every MP referendum? There as only variables
:05:25. > :05:29.the opportunity decide whether they want to be sure of a referendum
:05:29. > :05:33.within this parliament, or maybe leave it to the vagaries of what may
:05:33. > :05:37.within this parliament, or maybe happen in 2015. Supposing you got
:05:37. > :05:39.your way, how would you vote? Like Michael Gove, I would vote for us to
:05:39. > :05:43.leave as of today, but there will be Michael Gove, I would vote for us to
:05:43. > :05:44.an enormous amount of pressure on European Union leaders to come
:05:44. > :05:48.forward with proposals. If they European Union leaders to come
:05:48. > :05:50.to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever
:05:50. > :05:55.closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving us
:05:56. > :05:57.more border control and control closer trading harmony, giving us
:05:57. > :06:00.our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to
:06:00. > :06:05.happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:05. > :06:08.negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:08. > :06:12.people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime
:06:12. > :06:14.Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime
:06:15. > :06:20.Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It
:06:20. > :06:24.certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five
:06:24. > :06:30.weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,
:06:30. > :06:36.is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know
:06:36. > :06:40.cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in
:06:40. > :06:45.2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop
:06:45. > :06:49.this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your
:06:49. > :06:51.party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over
:06:51. > :06:56.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it
:06:56. > :06:59.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol
:07:00. > :07:03.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was unlicensed troublemaker of the
:07:03. > :07:06.Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but
:07:06. > :07:06.Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or
:07:07. > :07:10.not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or
:07:10. > :07:15.British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with
:07:15. > :07:19.it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for
:07:19. > :07:22.each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and
:07:22. > :07:28.decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the
:07:28. > :07:29.headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition
:07:29. > :07:38.publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition
:07:38. > :07:39.would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this
:07:39. > :07:44.opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this
:07:44. > :07:48.say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a
:07:49. > :07:52.say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle
:07:52. > :07:56.with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the
:07:56. > :07:57.panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with
:07:57. > :08:02.him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with
:08:02. > :08:10.that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most
:08:10. > :08:14.prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if
:08:14. > :08:18.you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in
:08:18. > :08:23.charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.
:08:24. > :08:29.They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill
:08:29. > :08:33.is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.
:08:33. > :08:37.It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the
:08:37. > :08:39.next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that
:08:39. > :08:42.all the future government would theoretically impossible and that
:08:42. > :08:45.is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that
:08:45. > :08:51.Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that
:08:51. > :08:59.nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David
:08:59. > :09:04.Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support
:09:04. > :09:07.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would
:09:07. > :09:11.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to
:09:11. > :09:15.his MPs, ignore this. It may well be significant number of Labour MPs do
:09:15. > :09:22.not turn up, and then what you have Conservative backbenchers, and in
:09:22. > :09:28.that war you might well find that through, and then the Prime Minister
:09:28. > :09:35.has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister
:09:35. > :09:39.membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able
:09:39. > :09:41.to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:41. > :09:49.think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:49. > :09:50.what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:50. > :09:55.not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:55. > :10:02.a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is
:10:02. > :10:08.has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some
:10:08. > :10:11.pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were
:10:11. > :10:16.going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of
:10:16. > :10:21.the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to
:10:21. > :10:27.hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an
:10:27. > :10:32.operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,
:10:32. > :10:34.operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign
:10:34. > :10:44.is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy
:10:44. > :10:49.under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am
:10:49. > :10:52.pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton
:10:52. > :10:58.is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton
:10:58. > :11:03.bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main
:11:03. > :11:08.episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David
:11:08. > :11:13.Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope
:11:13. > :11:16.Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is
:11:16. > :11:21.in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do
:11:21. > :11:26.you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but
:11:26. > :11:28.not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:28. > :11:31.you? The Government says it has mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:31. > :11:38.scheme designed for you which is in launching next week, help to buy,
:11:38. > :11:43.re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy
:11:43. > :11:45.really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:45. > :11:50.Never mind who lives in a house British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:50. > :11:53.this, who can afford to buy a house these days? The Government would
:11:53. > :11:54.this, who can afford to buy a house like many more people to be able to
:11:54. > :11:56.without putting down a crippling like many more people to be able to
:11:56. > :11:59.without putting down a crippling amount of money as a deposit, and in
:11:59. > :12:04.the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to
:12:04. > :12:04.the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two
:12:04. > :12:25.been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.
:12:25. > :12:29.Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this
:12:29. > :12:34.scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really
:12:34. > :12:40.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is
:12:40. > :12:41.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a
:12:41. > :12:47.value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to
:12:47. > :12:51.Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up
:12:51. > :12:58.to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up
:12:58. > :13:00.time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first
:13:00. > :13:04.losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first
:13:04. > :13:08.future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if
:13:08. > :13:12.you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the
:13:12. > :13:18.5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating
:13:18. > :13:26.banks and building societies. And a housing prime mover. You cannot
:13:26. > :13:30.get training to 5% mortgage anymore, 90% even, so there are couples in
:13:30. > :13:33.our country who have good jobs, decent incomes, they could afford
:13:33. > :13:42.the mortgage payments but they failure in our banking market. So
:13:42. > :13:44.Jonathan, but I guess for you this is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a
:13:44. > :13:50.main impact of this scheme will is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a
:13:50. > :13:55.to push up prices, who does that benefit? Mostly rich and all the
:13:55. > :13:59.people who own their houses. Plus the banks, of course, because it is
:14:00. > :14:03.a subsidy for them. Who loses? People who want to buy a house in
:14:03. > :14:09.the future. Moreover, it is a bit odd that the Government says it
:14:09. > :14:11.the future. Moreover, it is a bit not OK to borrow to finance schools
:14:11. > :14:23.or roads, but it is fine for the effectively, in order to guarantee
:14:23. > :14:27.housing market. 2.3 million? I do not think Help to Buy covers that.
:14:27. > :14:34.But enter a would-be buyer, will they now be seeing a plethora of
:14:34. > :14:41.help to buy mortgages? In a word, no. David Cameron has brought the
:14:41. > :14:45.months, and banks were not ready at that stage. Two banks have committed
:14:45. > :14:49.to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group and the RBS group, so lenders like
:14:50. > :14:53.Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will be doing the scheme, but even once
:14:53. > :15:00.the scheme is up and running you are probably find 95% mortgages on the
:15:00. > :15:10.high street because of the guarantee the government is offering. People
:15:10. > :15:14.might say this is how we got into a mess in the first place. Why would
:15:14. > :15:20.the government want to make those products available then now? It
:15:20. > :15:22.the government want to make those more what investment banks were
:15:22. > :15:28.doing in the background that caused performed extremely well through the
:15:28. > :15:35.depths of the downturn. Is this performed extremely well through the
:15:35. > :15:37.game changer? Yes, I have done my best to save over the last few years
:15:37. > :15:42.but this has enabled me to make best to save over the last few years
:15:42. > :15:47.first purchase. How frustrating best to save over the last few years
:15:47. > :15:53.it just renting? Very frustrating, you are throwing away money hand
:15:53. > :16:01.over fist, and now I can take that enthusiasm raises a question back at
:16:01. > :16:07.the flat. If you are looking for a 95% mortgage, you don't really care
:16:07. > :16:14.economy, you are thinking, great, I can buy a house. Yes, if I was a
:16:14. > :16:21.house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term
:16:21. > :16:25.economic damage. The tricky steps the government are trying to pull
:16:25. > :16:32.off is that home-buyers might be so grateful for the opportunity to
:16:32. > :16:32.off is that home-buyers might be so their own homes that they reward the
:16:32. > :16:35.Government with the vote, while their own homes that they reward the
:16:35. > :16:52.the same time the Government tries to sidestep consequences that such a
:16:52. > :16:57.Now Conservative MP Margot James, and Allister Heath, editor of City
:16:57. > :17:04.It is said by the critics that this scheme will cause a housing bubble.
:17:04. > :17:18.Where is the evidence? House prices are more varied. Housing not just in
:17:18. > :17:22.London remains overvalued and the problem with this scheme is that it
:17:22. > :17:31.will pump up house prices, it will therefore houses will become even
:17:31. > :17:35.more overvalued. That is a dangerous territory, last time it ended in
:17:35. > :17:42.tears, and now the Government is taking on the risk of that policy.
:17:42. > :17:44.What do you say to that? We have a real problem, it takes people on
:17:44. > :17:55.average until they are 38 years real problem, it takes people on
:17:55. > :17:59.property. The problem is not that they cannot afford it, but they
:17:59. > :18:03.cannot afford the deposit. We have got to do something to allow people
:18:03. > :18:08.to get their feet on the property ladder and I don't agree it will
:18:08. > :18:23.cause a boom in house prices. It would if we were not building any
:18:23. > :18:33.have had a record this year, 12 months to right now, the record
:18:33. > :18:34.have had a record this year, 12 the last ten years. These are not
:18:34. > :18:40.the statistics I have seen, but the last ten years. These are not
:18:40. > :18:46.new supply is coming up. It is starting to creep up. We don't see
:18:46. > :18:50.enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution
:18:50. > :18:54.to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes
:18:54. > :19:00.and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the
:19:00. > :19:04.deposits are so high is because secondly the Government has passed
:19:04. > :19:08.laws to make the banking system secondly the Government has passed
:19:08. > :19:15.prudent, telling them to put more wrong. Now suddenly the Government
:19:16. > :19:19.is not happy with the outcome of its own rules and is trying to create
:19:19. > :19:26.these subsidies to circumvent the rules it has put in place. It is not
:19:26. > :19:32.a subsidy. Don't forget banks have to pay a charge in order to take
:19:32. > :19:39.part in this loan scheme and that the... You are guaranteeing the
:19:39. > :19:42.money. Yes, but the fear is worked out on a commercial basis. The
:19:42. > :19:49.taxpayer is protected. Why? You out on a commercial basis. The
:19:49. > :19:54.guaranteeing £12 billion worth of mortgages per year. Yes but the
:19:54. > :20:00.change in the whole mortgage basis has been made a few years ago in
:20:00. > :20:03.response of the crash. They made the distressed test on people applying
:20:03. > :20:13.for mortgages much higher and you twice... So it will not be like
:20:13. > :20:19.these self certification mortgages handed out in America that caused
:20:19. > :20:24.the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit like that but the banks are rightly
:20:24. > :20:29.asking for bigger deposits, they know there is a big chance house
:20:29. > :20:33.prices could fall if interest rates eventually, so they are demanding
:20:33. > :20:38.bigger deposits. The Government eventually, so they are demanding
:20:38. > :20:41.circumventing this is being passed eventually, so they are demanding
:20:41. > :20:46.on to the taxpayers which is why it is a dangerous policy. Instead they
:20:46. > :20:54.should be massively accelerating Planning permission is much easier
:20:54. > :20:58.to get now, we have seen a 49% increase in planning permission
:20:58. > :20:59.to get now, we have seen a 49% a new building over the last year, a
:20:59. > :21:05.huge increase. In the figures I a new building over the last year, a
:21:05. > :21:09.recently, they showed new start a new building over the last year, a
:21:09. > :21:12.the 12 months to the autumn were only about 110,000 which is the
:21:12. > :21:17.figure you inherited, which was only about 110,000 which is the
:21:17. > :21:24.an all-time low in 2010. New house built in the last quarter are third
:21:24. > :21:29.up on the time last year. You have relaxation of planning laws and
:21:29. > :21:31.up on the time last year. You have other policies the Government put
:21:31. > :21:36.into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I
:21:36. > :21:42.agree, if we weren't building more houses, if the construction sector
:21:42. > :21:49.advantage of the increased demand, there would be a risk. David Cameron
:21:49. > :21:57.says you are snob and it is only snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They
:21:57. > :22:03.don't have the bank of mum and dad, people like that will finally get on
:22:03. > :22:07.the housing ladder. That is complete nonsense. We need a sustainable
:22:07. > :22:11.housing market where there is a large amount of construction, like
:22:11. > :22:19.in the 1930s for example, where large numbers of proper family homes
:22:19. > :22:25.were being built for people. House prices were pushed down and people
:22:25. > :22:29.could afford houses. You are now encouraging people to take out a 95%
:22:29. > :22:38.mortgage, I thought that was a bad idea, so supposing interest rates go
:22:38. > :22:44.struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced
:22:44. > :22:49.with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.
:22:49. > :22:55.95% mortgage, if you can afford interest rates that I cannot afford.
:22:55. > :23:00.repayments, you will be fine. What happens when interest rates rise?
:23:00. > :23:03.They have got to rise a lot before you get into trouble. People are
:23:03. > :23:09.already affording rent which is you get into trouble. People are
:23:09. > :23:16.lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into
:23:16. > :23:20.this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are
:23:20. > :23:24.this scheme unless you can afford the moment. The Conservatives should
:23:24. > :23:30.limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape
:23:30. > :23:33.limelight last week but there was an row between Ed Miliband and the
:23:33. > :23:41.Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the claiming that Ed Miliband's Father
:23:41. > :23:48.Ralph hated Britain. They showed a picture of his father's gravestone
:23:48. > :23:52.with the caption, grave socialist. They then removed the photo and
:23:52. > :23:56.with the caption, grave socialist. Ed Miliband the right to reply on
:23:57. > :24:01.printed an editorial alongside it saying they stood by every word
:24:01. > :24:06.printed an editorial alongside it published an fair headline. It also
:24:06. > :24:11.reporter had gate-crashed a private memorial service for Ed Miliband's
:24:11. > :24:15.uncle in a London hospital, for which the paper has now apologised,
:24:15. > :24:23.but Ed Miliband has called on the hard look at the way his papers
:24:23. > :24:31.but Ed Miliband has called on the run. This comes a week before a
:24:31. > :24:31.but Ed Miliband has called on the Joining us now from Hull, John
:24:31. > :24:42.Prescott. Does this row between Joining us now from Hull, John
:24:42. > :24:49.reinforce the case for tough, new certainly influences the opinion
:24:49. > :24:53.about that but that is more of Paul Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang
:24:53. > :24:54.about that but that is more of Paul while I was in Strasbourg making
:24:54. > :24:59.sure my complaints were nothing while I was in Strasbourg making
:24:59. > :25:04.do with press regulation and he while I was in Strasbourg making
:25:04. > :25:07.right. This argument is not about politicians and media people, it is
:25:07. > :25:16.about ordinary people that love politicians and media people, it is
:25:16. > :25:21.and dealt with. All of these cases affected individual people and they
:25:21. > :25:26.are the ones that need to have justice in this matter. Next week we
:25:26. > :25:33.will be hearing whether the Privy Council will be reporting on the
:25:33. > :25:49.proposal to replace it. Are you agreeing then that what the mail did
:25:49. > :26:02.with its Miliband article was a matter of judgement? Yes, and the
:26:02. > :26:04.with its Miliband article was a conclusion that the relationship
:26:05. > :26:13.between the press, the police and politicians should be governed,
:26:13. > :26:18.between the press, the police and proposal given by half the press
:26:18. > :26:22.industry that that does not meet the Leveson requirement and I suspect
:26:22. > :26:26.the Privy Council this week will have to reject that, and I hope
:26:26. > :26:28.the Privy Council this week will will because it is not consistent
:26:28. > :26:34.with the Leveson report which the Prime Minister said he supported.
:26:34. > :26:40.You attacked the mail in your column today but your paper went through
:26:40. > :26:45.the Cameron family bins to see what nappies they used for their disabled
:26:45. > :26:46.son. Isn't that far more offensive than what the Daily Mail wrote about
:26:46. > :26:56.Ralph Miliband? It probably is, than what the Daily Mail wrote about
:26:56. > :27:09.couldn't defend that. I have had Haven't we all? Yes, but we are
:27:09. > :27:23.editors who acts unilaterally. Paul Dacre is running this thing in the
:27:23. > :27:33.judgement and some accountability which the press have accepted the
:27:33. > :27:37.old PCC is no good. They are playing for time because if they reject
:27:37. > :27:40.old PCC is no good. They are playing this week there is 12 months until
:27:40. > :27:43.you can consider a parliamentary alternative and then you are near
:27:43. > :27:48.the election and you begin to bully the leaders. That is how they have
:27:48. > :27:58.been successful in putting off recommendations. Maybe my memory is
:27:58. > :28:04.fading but did you or anybody else in the Labour Party object to the
:28:04. > :28:08.Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't know about it. I would just say
:28:08. > :28:11.Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't is wrong if that is what they did.
:28:11. > :28:17.As you said, you have the same position when they go through your
:28:17. > :28:21.rubbish bins, I think that is wrong. We have Leveson set up by the Prime
:28:21. > :28:24.Minister to look at the cultures and practices and the unilateral action
:28:25. > :28:39.of editors and he came forward with Parliament under a compromise of the
:28:39. > :28:44.frankly, but we have agreed to go frankly, but we have agreed to go
:28:44. > :28:51.Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press
:28:51. > :28:58.box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a
:28:58. > :29:02.means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to
:29:02. > :29:08.introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not
:29:08. > :29:09.introduce their own independent accountability. We know Alistair
:29:09. > :29:13.Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair
:29:13. > :29:24.are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for
:29:24. > :29:39.this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to
:29:39. > :29:44.account. When Ed Miliband rang me it regulation, he wanted the argument
:29:44. > :29:57.of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband regulation, he wanted the argument
:29:57. > :29:59.of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband after Paul Dacre's head? No, he
:29:59. > :30:01.of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband stay there. It is like with Murdoch,
:30:01. > :30:06.of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband we were not attacking him but what
:30:06. > :30:12.extent, what they are doing about politicians who can look after
:30:12. > :30:16.themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they
:30:16. > :30:20.might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well
:30:20. > :30:25.destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre
:30:25. > :30:32.got good judgment? I would say no, Thank you for joining us, he did not
:30:32. > :30:35.even have to go to the BBC studios, we sent a truck there for him. What
:30:36. > :30:41.is the endgame in this? Whether we sent a truck there for him. What
:30:41. > :30:45.Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,
:30:45. > :30:48.this is where it is going. We have the criminal trial involving Andy
:30:49. > :30:52.Coulson coming up, the Privy Council discussing press radiation before
:30:52. > :30:59.question is, what is political unfashionable view, is that the
:30:59. > :31:12.total at yum elated political impact of the Leveson story over the past
:31:12. > :31:14.those who do care believe that all parties are roughly complicit in
:31:14. > :31:19.being too close to editors and proprietors. You said that Adam
:31:19. > :31:26.Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a smile. Is the Daily Mail also a
:31:26. > :31:30.Labour mole? This has been a dream for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch,
:31:30. > :31:34.I am taking on the energy companies and now the evil Daily Mail! I
:31:34. > :31:38.think... I should say I used to and now the evil Daily Mail! I
:31:38. > :31:42.for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they
:31:42. > :31:46.surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done
:31:46. > :31:49.surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this
:31:49. > :31:52.position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think
:31:52. > :31:58.the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.
:31:58. > :32:01.If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do
:32:01. > :32:05.this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the
:32:05. > :32:12.media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a
:32:12. > :32:15.dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David
:32:15. > :32:18.Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some
:32:18. > :32:26.common ground between the three so-called press industry version.
:32:26. > :32:30.What the Daily Mail has done is ensured that the Prime Minister
:32:30. > :32:33.What the Daily Mail has done is What is going to happen this week is
:32:33. > :32:36.that the press Royal Charter has to be considered first, and that will
:32:36. > :32:43.probably be rejected. The Privy Council will reject it. Then the
:32:43. > :32:48.three party Royal Charter will come up, but meanwhile the press will set
:32:48. > :32:52.up their own regulatory body because the Royal Charter is not a proper
:32:52. > :32:56.statutory underpinning, they will be able to go ahead with that. There
:32:56. > :33:07.statutory underpinning, they will be will be the legal basis for the
:33:07. > :33:10.resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the
:33:10. > :33:25.profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for
:33:25. > :33:29.victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the
:33:29. > :33:33.narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But
:33:33. > :33:35.all those vested interests are people that you would expect a
:33:35. > :33:41.left-wing politician to want to people that you would expect a
:33:41. > :33:46.on. It is also more significant about who he has stood up for, and
:33:46. > :33:49.the person he has studied for is his father. Maybe people thought of
:33:49. > :33:53.the person he has studied for is his as a Marxist, now they think of
:33:53. > :33:56.the person he has studied for is his as war hero. He gets to the crux of
:33:56. > :34:01.matters, you know! You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in
:34:01. > :34:29.Hello. At a time when we celebrate gathering in the harvest, there is
:34:29. > :34:35.doubt —— trouble on the farm. Growers are angry at a decision to
:34:35. > :34:39.scrap a popular works dream the students. It is a scheme that has
:34:39. > :34:45.worked well. It is a shame to see the whole thing being binned so
:34:45. > :34:48.easily. In the Fens, there is mounting
:34:48. > :34:55.pressure to act against the exploitation of migrant workers. The
:34:55. > :35:00.BBC investigation uncovers serious breaches of UK employment law.
:35:00. > :35:05.Do you think the condition your tenants live in our good enough? Can
:35:05. > :35:09.you go please. Can the Tories pass the Bridget
:35:09. > :35:12.Jones test as are most favourite Singleton makes a comeback.
:35:12. > :35:18.We start with an investigation which sends alarm bells running through
:35:18. > :35:24.the Fens. We uncovered disturbing evidence of the widespread abuse of
:35:24. > :35:28.migrant workers. The allegation is, unscrupulous gang masters were
:35:28. > :35:32.recruiting workers from Eastern Europe with promises of rich
:35:32. > :35:36.pickings. The shocking truth is many of these recruits were housed in
:35:36. > :35:46.appalling conditions and were paid well below the minimum wage. That is
:35:46. > :35:52.an offence under UK employment law. Are you taking their wages? No, I
:35:52. > :35:58.don't take anything. This is a story of exploitation,
:35:58. > :36:02.intimidation and bribery. Our investigation has found evidence of
:36:02. > :36:07.illegal gang masters are still exploiting migrants in the Fens.
:36:07. > :36:10.This is one of the worst houses. The ceiling is falling in, water is
:36:10. > :36:15.dripping down and there is mould everywhere. The smell is
:36:15. > :36:20.indescribable. I certainly wouldn't want to live here. We have evidence
:36:20. > :36:25.you are at ring as an illegal gang master. Maybe the police have
:36:25. > :36:35.evidence, but not you. We have Lisa Duffy, she is the mayor
:36:35. > :36:41.of the UKIP strong county. Alongside her is Stuart Jackson, Conservative
:36:41. > :36:46.MP for Peter borough. A lot of these problems happening not far from you
:36:46. > :36:56.in Wisbech. What do you make of that? It is appalling. I think
:36:56. > :37:02.Operation Pheasant, happening, the partnership group, eight different
:37:02. > :37:07.authorities to come together to fight against this problem in our
:37:07. > :37:19.region is a good thing. But where are the prosecutions? We have The
:37:19. > :37:23.Gang Masters Licensing Authority. There is legislation, why isn't it
:37:23. > :37:30.working? There is good cooperation between the agencies. I do think the
:37:30. > :37:36.wider picture is, we need to be working on reducing the pool factor
:37:36. > :37:42.of people coming from Eastern Europe. We need to make it clear
:37:42. > :37:47.they need to work in legitimate as Mrs and cannot claim benefit so we
:37:47. > :37:54.are reducing the numbers. No one can excuse the appalling conditions they
:37:54. > :37:58.are housed in. I have two play tribute to Mike Coley, the local MP
:37:58. > :38:07.who has been campaigning on this issue. —— my colleague. How can we
:38:07. > :38:14.do this when people from Romania and Bulgaria are free to come to the UK?
:38:14. > :38:18.We are expect thing a big influx from Romania and Bulgaria. We need
:38:18. > :38:25.to deal with the problem here and now and take action. I agree totally
:38:25. > :38:30.with what the MP, Steve Barclay is doing in Wisbech and supported. Do
:38:30. > :38:35.you think people will be shocked they are paying the price through
:38:35. > :38:40.the price of fruit and veg, they are paying the price for this sort of
:38:40. > :38:46.Labour or do you think they will pay more for fruit and veg? Nobody wants
:38:46. > :38:52.to see this behaviour. Illegal gang masters should end up in prison. We
:38:52. > :38:55.have some rogue landlords in Peter borough and they should feel the
:38:55. > :38:59.full weight of the law. Most of them come to make a better life for
:38:59. > :39:04.themselves, decent working people do not deserve to be treated in this
:39:04. > :39:10.way. The basis of this is the ludicrous decision of the Labour
:39:10. > :39:13.Party in 2004 to have no controls on immigration for the European Union.
:39:13. > :39:18.We said there would be problems with the labour market and the issue of
:39:18. > :39:25.public services and infrastructure. That is what has happened. On this
:39:25. > :39:30.occasion it is housing, but there is education and health.
:39:30. > :39:34.Not all farmers rely on gang masters. A lot of it is staffed by
:39:34. > :39:46.overseas students. At present they are hired on a government programme
:39:46. > :39:54.called This Season Agricultural Programme. But from January it is
:39:54. > :39:59.being abolished. The government says there is no need for it and in any
:39:59. > :40:09.case they want more UK citizens to fill the vacancies.
:40:09. > :40:15.A group of vulgar Aryan and Romanian fruit pickers on this farm at
:40:15. > :40:25.Tiptree. This is where they make the world—famous jam. This 24—year—old
:40:25. > :40:32.student has been coming over here to pick fruit the six years under the
:40:32. > :40:40.scheme. She is up at first light, works eight hours a day and can earn
:40:40. > :40:47.around 320 pounds a week before tax. We are living in the camp, so I have
:40:47. > :40:55.made a lot of friendships. Not only Bulgarian, so I have met different
:40:55. > :40:59.people here. This farm have employed foreign workers since 1953. They
:40:59. > :41:04.have come from all over the world to work in Essex and the scheme has
:41:05. > :41:11.always worked well. Fruit yields have been good. Flavour has been
:41:12. > :41:15.good. This is the farm director and he is worried when this scheme comes
:41:15. > :41:20.to an end, he will struggle to get enough reliable workers to pick the
:41:20. > :41:23.fruit. We are licensed by the Home Office and monitored by the Home
:41:23. > :41:27.Office. I come to see us several times a year. So great
:41:27. > :41:30.disappointment and frustration because it has worked well,
:41:30. > :41:37.everybody acknowledged it worked well. It is a shame to see it end so
:41:37. > :41:42.easily. What will happen when it is scrapped in January? Workers from
:41:42. > :41:49.Eastern Europe will still be able to come here. But the government says
:41:49. > :41:55.it will able to help unemployed, UK residents. Although many people in
:41:55. > :41:59.this sector find it laughable. Many workers are not as reliable and
:41:59. > :42:03.efficient and cannot make it within the industry. It is sad, because we
:42:03. > :42:10.would like to employ more British workers. Will 20,000 British people
:42:11. > :42:16.come and work in this sector? I don't think so, no. The people we
:42:16. > :42:21.employ in this industry are migrant labour. They stay less than six
:42:21. > :42:25.months and they don't even register on the immigration figures. Getting
:42:25. > :42:30.rid of these workers makes no difference to immigration. What do
:42:30. > :42:37.think the government are doing? Playing to the crowd? That is our
:42:37. > :42:40.fear. We know the results the government had in the elections
:42:40. > :42:52.earlier in the year and are great fear is we have been caught in the
:42:52. > :42:56.crossfire. Can I have a look in. This lady shares a static caravan
:42:56. > :43:02.with three others. The community centre has a kitchen, laundry and
:43:03. > :43:07.cooking facilities. The farm is disappointed at what they say is the
:43:08. > :43:10.government's short—term decision. They would never take production
:43:10. > :43:17.abroad to somewhere like Spain, but other growers say that is a real
:43:17. > :43:23.possibility. I know the Home Office have been
:43:23. > :43:27.talking to you about this. We saw it is popular with farmers, popular
:43:27. > :43:34.with students and it gives work. White abolish it? Immigration is the
:43:34. > :43:40.issue. It is number one in the east, an issue most people are concerned
:43:40. > :43:43.about. Local employers have a social responsibility. I commend the
:43:43. > :43:49.company for providing accommodation for their workforce. You cannot make
:43:49. > :43:55.an impact on welfare reform to get young people off benefits into work,
:43:55. > :44:01.if you import of people on a special scheme, a sweetheart deal between
:44:01. > :44:07.the farmers and government. Is it a sweetheart deal or is it a scheme
:44:07. > :44:10.that was working very well? The farmers say they need people who are
:44:10. > :44:14.trained, speed is of the essence when working with fruit and
:44:14. > :44:21.vegetables. Shouldn't those views be important? They are important and
:44:21. > :44:25.there has been consultation on the changes that are going to be made.
:44:25. > :44:29.But it is important they go into Jobcentres and meet British workers,
:44:29. > :44:35.train them and bring them on board and pay them a decent wage. They
:44:35. > :44:40.have a social responsibility. Just importing low skilled foreign
:44:40. > :44:43.workers while we have thousands of youngsters parked on benefits is no
:44:43. > :44:48.way to drive economic growth. Farmers say it is a six—month
:44:48. > :44:52.contract, and the workers are committed the six months, will that
:44:52. > :44:58.work in reality in the open job market? People can come and work in
:44:58. > :45:05.horticulture and food processing. The government is bringing an end to
:45:05. > :45:08.this particular scheme. We all have a social responsibility to get
:45:08. > :45:13.people off benefits, off welfare and into work and also control
:45:13. > :45:17.immigration, which is a major concern amongst my constituents.
:45:17. > :45:25.Farmers say local people don't want to do this work. They all say that.
:45:25. > :45:29.They are making plenty of money, paying taxes to the Treasury and the
:45:29. > :45:32.people they employ are happy. In my city we are having to Howes, provide
:45:33. > :45:40.health service and education service. There has to be a social
:45:40. > :45:45.contract between business and government and the people coming to
:45:45. > :45:50.work here. Lisa Duffy, the Observer newspaper quoted Abul Garey and
:45:50. > :45:55.government source as saying its citizens were brought over here to
:45:55. > :45:59.do things like fruit picking because UK citizens are too lazy to do the
:45:59. > :46:05.work. Are they lazy people where you live? There are lazy people were
:46:05. > :46:10.anybody lives. What I would have wanted to have seen was the scheme
:46:10. > :46:15.phased out, so at the moment there is a certain level that are able to
:46:15. > :46:21.come in for the six—month period. I would like to have seen it phased
:46:21. > :46:27.out so the farmers have a sense of not nervousness of them losing these
:46:27. > :46:30.workers. Quite rightly, British young people are not taking those
:46:30. > :46:36.jobs on for six months. They need to know they have got these workers for
:46:36. > :46:40.six months at a time so they can produce and deliver on time. We need
:46:40. > :46:46.to keep the work in this country and not have it going abroad to Spain.
:46:46. > :46:51.Isn't there a danger the growing itself could transfer abroad? That
:46:51. > :46:56.is not the case because people will always come to this country because
:46:56. > :47:02.of the English language, because of the free labour market, the capacity
:47:02. > :47:06.to improve yourself. We are not turning people away who are highly
:47:07. > :47:11.skilled and in well—paid jobs. While we have thousands of young people
:47:11. > :47:17.who are parked on benefits who need training and support and the work,
:47:17. > :47:20.that is a priority. I remain to be convinced companies will make
:47:20. > :47:24.long—term, substantial business decisions on the basis of ending
:47:24. > :47:30.this scheme when they can already recruit. This was a perfectly
:47:30. > :47:34.workable scheme which has been caught up in the immigration issue
:47:34. > :47:42.which UKIP has been part of stoking the flames of. Do you agree with
:47:42. > :47:46.that statement? Yes, in our region immigration is a huge problem. 1st
:47:46. > :47:55.of January there is a nervousness of how many Romanians and Bulgarians
:47:56. > :48:00.welcome over. We have to manage it. They are taking some of the jobs are
:48:00. > :48:05.British and people don't take. But we need to encourage young people to
:48:05. > :48:11.take these jobs. They need to earn higher wages so that puts the
:48:11. > :48:16.products up. Do you think this scheme has been the victim of the
:48:16. > :48:21.immigration issue? The immigration minister and Theresa May have made a
:48:21. > :48:27.brave decision, supported by The Migration Advisory Committee. Make
:48:27. > :48:33.it clear you come to this country to study or work. No free lunches, you
:48:33. > :48:40.don't get free health care and free housing. That is the way it is.
:48:40. > :48:45.Party canvassers know immigration is high on the agenda of voters. Tory
:48:45. > :48:50.MPs in the marginal seats are right to worry about the impact of UKIP
:48:50. > :48:58.rivals. At the Conservative party conference, the subject of UKIP
:48:58. > :49:03.fringed in the bars were Nigel Farage talked about Conservative MPs
:49:03. > :49:07.in our region who might be interested in some form of pact.
:49:07. > :49:13.UKIP's appeal, whether it is on the European question, whether it is on
:49:13. > :49:17.mass, open—door immigration. Whether it is our desire to bring back
:49:17. > :49:22.grammar schools and give working class kids in poor areas a chance to
:49:22. > :49:27.get on. Whether it is on all these issues, UKIP connects, not just with
:49:27. > :49:35.traditional Tories, but it connects across the political spectrum. Peter
:49:35. > :49:42.Bowen and Jacob, have made the running with the idea that why can't
:49:42. > :49:48.we have haps, in some areas, a co—operation that takes place at
:49:48. > :49:53.local level between UKIP associations and Tory, or perhaps
:49:53. > :50:00.even Labour local associations? At the moment UKIP is destroying the
:50:00. > :50:11.chances of an in out referendum. Somehow you have to move to gather.
:50:11. > :50:14.You have to get them to work together somehow. I am a
:50:14. > :50:20.conservative and I hope UKIP will endorse conservatives and in return,
:50:20. > :50:25.give David Cameron is huge majority. You are one of those MPs who were
:50:25. > :50:30.not mind a UKIP endorsements? We will have one of the most
:50:30. > :50:37.ideological elections coming up in 2015, the 20 years. The choice UKIP
:50:37. > :50:41.have as a party is are they going to stand candidates against people like
:50:41. > :50:45.me who voted against more powers to the European Union. If they do that
:50:45. > :50:51.they will elect a Euro fanatical Labour MP, destroy any chances of an
:50:51. > :50:56.EU referendum and put Ed Balls and Ed Miliband in charge of the country
:50:56. > :51:02.via a Labour government and we will have high debt, high borrowing and
:51:02. > :51:06.high interest rates for mortgages. I am interested to know how this would
:51:06. > :51:12.work on a practical level. What would it take to persuade you as a
:51:12. > :51:16.party not to put a candidate up? What Nigel was talking about is
:51:16. > :51:22.working at a local level together, which we are already being seen
:51:22. > :51:25.being done on our county councils where we want them to work together
:51:25. > :51:29.for the best interests of the community. Surely at a national
:51:29. > :51:34.level you would want to veto and know what was going on at the local
:51:34. > :51:39.level? We would know exactly what is going on. We should do what is right
:51:39. > :51:43.for the people you are representing. In terms of standing against the
:51:43. > :51:49.likes of Stuart, who are clearly of the same mindset of us, we would
:51:49. > :51:54.like to say, come across. You are working underneath a Euro fanatic
:51:54. > :52:01.leader. Stewart, let's go for dinner and have a discussion. You have zero
:52:01. > :52:04.MPs. I'll eat my hat on this programme live if you get to MPs in
:52:04. > :52:12.a general election. There will not be a UKIP government. But you will
:52:12. > :52:18.knock out some good Eurosceptic MPs to put Labour in. We are in spirit
:52:18. > :52:23.as one, but there are ways of delivering. You are not moving
:52:23. > :52:28.across, but Lisa Duffy, would you put up a candidate against Stuart
:52:28. > :52:31.Jackson? I have been in a meeting this morning looking at the
:52:31. > :52:37.elections over the next 90 months, we will be standing against the
:52:37. > :52:43.likes of Stuart. —— 19 months. Their leader is wanting to stay within the
:52:43. > :52:49.European Union. This by—election, the Euro election coming up will be
:52:49. > :52:55.the country's referendum. This is UKIP all over. They punch David
:52:56. > :53:00.Cameron on the nose to feel good about it. About 70% are not
:53:00. > :53:06.conservatives. What conversation would you like to have? My
:53:06. > :53:12.conversation is not with Lisa Duffy, who I'm sure isn't Admiral
:53:12. > :53:20.Conservative in another constituency. —— isn't Admiral
:53:20. > :53:25.person. They will put Ed Miliband in Downing Street. If they want but,
:53:25. > :53:30.never to have an opportunity for a referendum, high welfare costs,
:53:30. > :53:35.open—door immigration again, that is the choice UKIP have. Are you
:53:35. > :53:41.prepared to potentially let Labour candidates in? No, we're asking for
:53:41. > :53:44.the British people to vote with their heads and hearts and see there
:53:44. > :53:51.is an alternative. We are consistently coming place where the
:53:51. > :53:56.north or south of the country. We are becoming the party of opposition
:53:56. > :54:00.in by—elections. We are building the vote share and people are seen UKIP
:54:00. > :54:07.have common—sense policies and will deliver what they say they will
:54:07. > :54:13.deliver. No handshakes today? I am an authentic, long—standing
:54:13. > :54:19.principles Eurosceptic and I think UKIP should join my party.
:54:19. > :54:20.The conference season has had its share of protests, both inside and
:54:20. > :54:36.out. Hundreds of health protesters from
:54:36. > :54:38.around the region joined the 50,000 strong march at the start of the
:54:38. > :54:44.Conservative conference in Manchester. It is no longer going to
:54:44. > :54:49.be an NHS, it will be a private health service. More demonstrations
:54:49. > :54:54.followed later in the week when teachers held a strike and hundreds
:54:55. > :54:58.of schools in the region closed. The people who suffer are the children.
:54:58. > :55:02.I have some of the most disadvantaged children in the
:55:02. > :55:08.region. But better news as new regulation aimed at stopping the
:55:08. > :55:12.plague of metal that came into force as a Stevenage firm helped draw up
:55:12. > :55:17.the new rules. Cash is not available, we have do have ID and
:55:17. > :55:23.proof of address. We can trace every bit of metal that comes through the
:55:23. > :55:34.doors. As the Conservative conference drew to a close, a new
:55:34. > :55:38.Richard Jones hit the shelves. Let's remind ourselves what UKIP
:55:39. > :55:44.said about Labour and the Conservatives.
:55:44. > :55:49.It is perfectly so obvious Labour stands for sharing, kindness, days,
:55:49. > :55:56.single mothers and Nelson Mandela as opposed to praying, see men having
:55:56. > :56:00.affairs with everyone left right and centre and going to the Ritz in
:56:00. > :56:04.Paris and telling the presenters of on the today programme.
:56:04. > :56:13.Stuart Jackson, are their brain, bossy men in your party? No, that is
:56:13. > :56:18.a caricature. To ascribe those values to every Conservative MP or
:56:18. > :56:24.member is not a very nice caricature and not true. Lisa Duffy, can you
:56:24. > :56:31.imagine a single mother on benefits voting for UKIP? Yes I can. We are
:56:31. > :56:35.talking to single mothers, single women, women of all ages coming
:56:35. > :56:41.across to UKIP for common—sense policies. Do you have to do anything
:56:41. > :56:46.as Conservatives to make the party more inclusive? We have driven up
:56:46. > :56:51.the number of women members and members of polity —— members of
:56:51. > :57:00.Parliament. We are a one nation party. Same for UKIP? Absolutely. We
:57:00. > :57:02.have to leave it there. You can keep in touch on the website, where you
:57:02. > :57:05.will find in touch on the website, where you
:57:05. > :57:07.We are getting into a discussion of more affordable homes needed, but we
:57:07. > :57:20.have no time. Andrew, back to you. Our next guest is no stranger to
:57:20. > :57:41.controversy, a former UKIP MEP he recently lost his party's whip after
:57:42. > :57:46.a series of outbursts including receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land'
:57:46. > :57:49.and joking that a group of UKIP women who didn't clean behind their
:57:49. > :57:53.fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in independent but remains a UKIP party
:57:53. > :58:03.member. Here's a flavour of recent events in the political life of
:58:03. > :58:13.Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly be giving £1 million a month...
:58:13. > :58:16.Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails within 12 hours, only 47 were not
:58:16. > :58:20.agreeing with me so you are the within 12 hours, only 47 were not
:58:20. > :58:23.that is out of touch. Everybody knows me, a bit like the Marmite
:58:23. > :58:27.joke, they love me or they hate knows me, a bit like the Marmite
:58:27. > :58:38.but I have always told me like it is. I made a joke and said that
:58:38. > :58:42.women who did not clean behind the French were sluts and everybody
:58:42. > :58:45.laughed along, including the women. I have had hundreds of e-mails,
:58:46. > :58:51.saying, God Almighty, can't you I have had hundreds of e-mails,
:58:51. > :58:56.a joke any more? I am long in the correctness and I understand UKIP
:58:56. > :59:10.have moved on and they are doing well, and I wish them well. This,
:59:10. > :59:16.with no black faces on it. You are picking people out for the colour of
:59:16. > :59:19.with no black faces on it. You are their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps
:59:19. > :59:27.the way they are doing things now is disgrace me. We are joined now with
:59:27. > :59:34.a suitable distance between us by the independent MEP for Yorkshire
:59:34. > :59:39.and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You said this weekend that you have
:59:39. > :59:48.and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You be a complete sociopath to be in
:59:48. > :59:51.politics, are you a sociopath? No, I am just an ordinary bloke from the
:59:51. > :59:55.rugby club likes to tell it as it is. I did not come into politics to
:59:55. > :00:00.rugby club likes to tell it as it save my country from the clutches of
:00:00. > :00:06.the awful, evil... That is why I am in politics, and that is why I
:00:06. > :00:14.member, and I will still be voting ability... Do you accept that your
:00:14. > :00:21.conference? We were both born in ability... Do you accept that your
:00:21. > :00:27.same year, we are too old to worry about regrets. Let's look forward
:00:27. > :00:35.and see... Never mind the year I was born, what is the answer to my
:00:35. > :00:42.country and intent to do the best I independent for my country, and
:00:42. > :00:45.country and intent to do the best I re-elected. They are the only game
:00:45. > :00:54.in town, the only party that will get as out. Shouldn't you have been
:00:54. > :00:58.liability? You hijacked the party conference. That is a matter of
:00:58. > :01:03.perception. We have heard nothing in the last two years but it is a
:01:03. > :01:06.one-man band, a Nigel Farage party, and I can make a joke at a fringe
:01:06. > :01:14.meeting and collapse the whole thing. This doesn't say anything
:01:14. > :01:23.Andrew. It tells you about your journalism - it is not about UKIP or
:01:23. > :01:29.me, it was the journalists' reaction to a small joke at a meeting. And
:01:30. > :01:43.myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable
:01:43. > :01:56.force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has
:01:56. > :02:00.been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June
:02:00. > :02:06.and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement
:02:06. > :02:13.about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote
:02:13. > :02:18.getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you
:02:18. > :02:23.what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip
:02:23. > :02:30.of that. We are not here to win friends amongst the liberal elite,
:02:30. > :02:39.and Godfrey's problem was that he manifesto. Don't you need to reflect
:02:39. > :02:41.that you are too outrageous, too politically incorrect even for UKIP?
:02:41. > :02:47.Well, you see, to a certain extent I politically incorrect even for UKIP?
:02:47. > :02:51.have been gagged on other subjects. I am a libertarian, I wanted to
:02:51. > :02:53.have been gagged on other subjects. about flat tax. I thought David
:02:53. > :02:57.Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been
:02:57. > :03:01.gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of
:03:01. > :03:10.it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown
:03:10. > :03:13.machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might
:03:13. > :03:17.have a point, but I am speaking the Victor Meldrew wing. You might
:03:17. > :03:23.you from Hull, and if you look at Barnsley, and very recently in
:03:23. > :03:28.Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things
:03:28. > :03:32.in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You
:03:32. > :03:35.in the bubble, it is not like how we like the one who was sitting in
:03:35. > :03:35.in the bubble, it is not like how we bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of
:03:35. > :03:40.course it isn't, we are getting bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of
:03:40. > :03:45.of the vote in by-elections, of course it is not. Boy, wouldn't
:03:45. > :03:48.of the vote in by-elections, of main parties and the establishment
:03:48. > :03:52.love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as
:03:52. > :03:55.an independence against UKIP in is not happening. Will you stand as
:03:55. > :04:07.European elections? Almost certainly elections were next week, I could
:04:08. > :04:10.do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:10. > :04:14.again? We do not know, probably Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:14. > :04:18.but I shall certainly be trying Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:18. > :04:21.help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in
:04:21. > :04:26.Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the
:04:26. > :04:30.fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance
:04:30. > :04:34.to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I
:04:34. > :04:44.am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey
:04:44. > :04:50.take it? For those of you who were shrugged! Thank you very much for
:04:50. > :04:55.joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do
:04:55. > :05:00.not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because
:05:00. > :05:07.they think they are a smooth, slick, absence of PR polish is the reason
:05:07. > :05:10.for their popularity, so these are skirmishes are not a problem, and
:05:11. > :05:15.more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even
:05:15. > :05:20.in that clip from Andrew Marr, he juxtaposition with someone like
:05:20. > :05:25.Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked
:05:25. > :05:25.Godfrey Bloom than he has done conference, it was a disaster, they
:05:26. > :05:28.got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they
:05:29. > :05:37.kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist
:05:37. > :05:42.long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his
:05:42. > :05:47.website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he
:05:47. > :05:53.photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does
:05:53. > :05:55.photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin
:05:55. > :06:01.was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It
:06:01. > :06:06.sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be
:06:06. > :06:06.sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a
:06:06. > :06:12.beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a
:06:12. > :06:15.sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP
:06:15. > :06:18.sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the
:06:18. > :06:22.European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is
:06:22. > :06:25.right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what
:06:25. > :06:33.this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to
:06:33. > :06:37.electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as
:06:37. > :06:37.electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the
:06:37. > :06:40.three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the
:06:40. > :06:44.probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.
:06:44. > :06:55.The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making
:06:55. > :06:56.The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that
:06:56. > :06:58.he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that
:06:58. > :07:00.he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and
:07:00. > :07:01.councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need
:07:01. > :07:04.Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need
:07:04. > :07:06.ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.
:07:06. > :07:10.David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.
:07:10. > :07:12.David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women
:07:12. > :07:14.among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?
:07:14. > :07:19.He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?
:07:19. > :07:25.week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way
:07:25. > :07:29.businesses in Britain, there are not boardroom. If you look at politics
:07:29. > :07:34.in Britain, there aren't nearly enough women around the Cabinet
:07:34. > :07:38.table. So I think, in every walk of life, whether it is the judiciary,
:07:38. > :07:41.whether it is politics, business, there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:41. > :07:45.the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:45. > :07:47.women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:47. > :07:50.have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:50. > :07:55.big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we
:07:55. > :08:00.need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in
:08:00. > :08:03.need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing
:08:03. > :08:06.need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than
:08:06. > :08:09.need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she
:08:09. > :08:14.need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime
:08:14. > :08:14.need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I
:08:14. > :08:19.think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I
:08:19. > :08:25.will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to
:08:25. > :08:33.will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin
:08:33. > :08:43.college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,
:08:43. > :08:46.but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult
:08:46. > :08:48.brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger
:08:48. > :08:55.roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger
:08:55. > :08:57.told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary
:08:57. > :09:05.level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot
:09:05. > :09:07.James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.
:09:07. > :09:11.What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.
:09:11. > :09:16.like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,
:09:16. > :09:19.like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important
:09:19. > :09:23.intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George
:09:23. > :09:33.Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls
:09:33. > :09:41.you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this
:09:41. > :09:48.now, a tonne of bricks will fall on him. He has got no excuse not to
:09:48. > :09:56.promote women, because the 2010 intake was disproportionately female
:09:56. > :10:00.in terms of talent. The question of the Tories and the struggle with
:10:00. > :10:03.women voters is a very deep and historic one. You have to remember
:10:03. > :10:07.that for most of the post-war period they had an advantage electorally
:10:07. > :10:12.amongst women voters. Many times Conservative government without
:10:12. > :10:14.amongst women voters. Many times women of this country. This began to
:10:14. > :10:21.change in the mid-1990s, and the question is, why has that happened?
:10:21. > :10:26.personalities at the top are now much more hostile to women, or less,
:10:26. > :10:27.personalities at the top are now Brent doubled to female voters?
:10:27. > :10:29.personalities at the top are now is such a deep historical trend
:10:29. > :10:35.personalities at the top are now I do not think one reshuffle will
:10:35. > :10:40.change it. -- or less competent civil. The English party conference
:10:40. > :10:46.season is over, do you share the consensus view that Ed Miliband
:10:46. > :10:51.season is over, do you share the out best of the three party leaders?
:10:51. > :10:56.I think I probably do, but his overall approval ratings are still
:10:56. > :11:00.minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus ten. And the more the recovery seems
:11:00. > :11:03.minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus to take place, and some of the
:11:03. > :11:07.latest figures are quite amazing, they certainly surprised me, you
:11:07. > :11:14.wonder whether Labour's tactic is right to put all their eggs into the
:11:14. > :11:18.living standards basket. I was looking at car sales, which are
:11:18. > :11:22.booming. If people start to feel better, and they don't yet, but
:11:22. > :11:30.booming. If people start to feel they were, it is tougher to go on
:11:30. > :11:32.about living standards. George Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband
:11:32. > :11:37.making a great thing about living standards, but then they say under
:11:37. > :11:43.their breath, this is global forces, outstripping wage increases. And
:11:43. > :11:47.you're absolutely right, as the economy improves, presumably that
:11:47. > :11:51.will be dealt with, but Miliband's argument will be that there are
:11:51. > :11:56.people suffering, and even if the economy recovers, they will still
:11:56. > :12:01.forces, it is difficult to blame the government for that. Body being
:12:01. > :12:06.noticed now, there is nothing worse for the leader of the opposition
:12:06. > :12:11.than to be not noticed. -- but he is being noticed now. It seems that he
:12:11. > :12:12.in many ways has set the political weather. Look at the number of
:12:12. > :12:18.references to the Labour leader weather. Look at the number of
:12:18. > :12:25.Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr Obama's speech on a similar topic,
:12:25. > :12:31.living standards. Was the mentioning Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the
:12:31. > :12:37.same language, he has not gone that far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would
:12:37. > :12:40.be more worried now, because Labour through the kitchen sink at their
:12:40. > :12:45.conference. They came out with the biggest policy announcements they
:12:45. > :12:49.could, compulsory apprenticeships, the energy freeze on prices, and it
:12:49. > :12:54.generated a poll boost which has fizzled away within ten days. I
:12:54. > :12:57.generated a poll boost which has not know where they go from here.
:12:57. > :13:04.What is significant with Ed Miliband conference beaches, he has set the
:13:04. > :13:07.one nation Britain, and the problem with those speeches is people say,
:13:07. > :13:14.they are fine, they are academic, but what does it mean? What you
:13:14. > :13:16.they are fine, they are academic, now is an intellectual framework
:13:16. > :13:20.that translates into policies. The polls to watch are not the ones
:13:20. > :13:23.after the conferences, but at the end of the month when it has also
:13:23. > :13:28.pulled down. They will tell us where we are going. We will have to go
:13:28. > :13:31.ourselves now. Thank you to our guests. The Daily Politics will
:13:31. > :13:34.ourselves now. Thank you to our back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two,
:13:34. > :13:37.and I will be back on BBC One this time, same time, next week. If it is
:13:37. > :13:39.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.