:00:39. > :00:44.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:45. > :00:49.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:50. > :00:53.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:54. > :00:59.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:00. > :01:04.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:05. > :01:05.coppers will be answering questions this
:01:06. > :01:15.Food or fuel? The argument over what We will be
:01:16. > :01:18.Food or fuel? The argument over what we are growing in our fields. What
:01:19. > :01:19.Food or fuel? The argument over what London, does the London assembly
:01:20. > :01:32.have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home
:01:33. > :01:36.Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a
:01:37. > :01:42.wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will
:01:43. > :01:50.join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen
:01:51. > :01:56.Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,
:01:57. > :02:00.using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party
:02:01. > :02:04.conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has
:02:05. > :02:09.been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts
:02:10. > :02:14.to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,
:02:15. > :02:17.20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of
:02:18. > :02:28.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence
:02:29. > :02:33.campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the
:02:34. > :02:37.day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for
:02:38. > :02:42.independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote
:02:43. > :02:47.either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the
:02:48. > :02:50.Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an
:02:51. > :02:56.awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in
:02:57. > :03:00.terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation
:03:01. > :03:04.of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of
:03:05. > :03:09.negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.
:03:10. > :03:14.That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls
:03:15. > :03:17.suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent
:03:18. > :03:24.survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5%
:03:25. > :03:29.yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting
:03:30. > :03:34.that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are
:03:35. > :03:40.a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It
:03:41. > :03:43.does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their
:03:44. > :03:47.own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it
:03:48. > :03:52.allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no
:03:53. > :03:56.campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big
:03:57. > :04:00.ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do
:04:01. > :04:05.know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting
:04:06. > :04:08.more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into
:04:09. > :04:12.force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of
:04:13. > :04:16.pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative
:04:17. > :04:20.would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by
:04:21. > :04:24.independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the
:04:25. > :04:27.currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance
:04:28. > :04:31.the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the
:04:32. > :04:34.Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a
:04:35. > :04:39.Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation
:04:40. > :04:42.it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish
:04:43. > :04:46.government's White Paper on independence, two to be published
:04:47. > :04:53.within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in
:04:54. > :05:00.September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it
:05:01. > :05:02.knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,
:05:03. > :05:09.Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former
:05:10. > :05:13.leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it
:05:14. > :05:18.will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of
:05:19. > :05:24.their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British
:05:25. > :05:28.identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much
:05:29. > :05:33.loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the
:05:34. > :05:38.independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and
:05:39. > :05:45.proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power
:05:46. > :05:49.best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a
:05:50. > :05:53.government which is directly accountable to the people of
:05:54. > :05:57.Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,
:05:58. > :06:01.very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at
:06:02. > :06:11.the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with
:06:12. > :06:16.him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British
:06:17. > :06:20.identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to
:06:21. > :06:25.attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody
:06:26. > :06:28.to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish
:06:29. > :06:34.independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of
:06:35. > :06:36.power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring
:06:37. > :06:40.that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the
:06:41. > :06:45.biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a
:06:46. > :06:48.constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many
:06:49. > :06:53.people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,
:06:54. > :06:57.many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many
:06:58. > :07:01.of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at
:07:02. > :07:06.stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks
:07:07. > :07:09.like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly
:07:10. > :07:13.approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will
:07:14. > :07:18.still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving
:07:19. > :07:25.over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know
:07:26. > :07:32.that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice
:07:33. > :07:37.between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own
:07:38. > :07:42.hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which
:07:43. > :07:46.will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not
:07:47. > :07:49.become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having
:07:50. > :07:55.governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland
:07:56. > :07:58.rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social
:07:59. > :08:02.security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are
:08:03. > :08:08.itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice
:08:09. > :08:11.of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences
:08:12. > :08:17.of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you
:08:18. > :08:22.are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.
:08:23. > :08:25.You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that
:08:26. > :08:30.nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind
:08:31. > :08:35.of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a
:08:36. > :08:40.once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland
:08:41. > :08:50.really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --
:08:51. > :08:56.existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making
:08:57. > :09:01.powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP
:09:02. > :09:03.government would do, if elected A decision on what the first
:09:04. > :09:07.government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken
:09:08. > :09:13.in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.
:09:14. > :09:15.And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the
:09:16. > :09:19.electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is
:09:20. > :09:25.important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of
:09:26. > :09:30.support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the
:09:31. > :09:33.rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of
:09:34. > :09:37.the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to
:09:38. > :09:42.Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of
:09:43. > :09:47.independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist
:09:48. > :09:51.near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of
:09:52. > :09:56.centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you
:09:57. > :10:01.are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that
:10:02. > :10:05.case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that
:10:06. > :10:10.people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,
:10:11. > :10:14.right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because
:10:15. > :10:18.people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the
:10:19. > :10:23.opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and
:10:24. > :10:27.if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a
:10:28. > :10:30.government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.
:10:31. > :10:34.Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in
:10:35. > :10:39.Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly
:10:40. > :10:43.democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current
:10:44. > :10:58.government, points out the opportunities that would be opening
:10:59. > :11:03.up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics
:11:04. > :11:09.earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he
:11:10. > :11:12.wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he
:11:13. > :11:22.would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He
:11:23. > :11:26.made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he
:11:27. > :11:29.would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr
:11:30. > :11:35.Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex
:11:36. > :11:39.Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that
:11:40. > :11:42.agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and
:11:43. > :11:48.then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he
:11:49. > :11:54.does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the
:11:55. > :11:59.others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the
:12:00. > :12:08.right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members
:12:09. > :12:14.of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?
:12:15. > :12:17.He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including
:12:18. > :12:33.the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let
:12:34. > :12:41.off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices
:12:42. > :12:46.are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do
:12:47. > :12:51.something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is
:12:52. > :12:55.the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband
:12:56. > :12:58.electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze
:12:59. > :13:02.energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control
:13:03. > :13:07.over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes
:13:08. > :13:12.prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon
:13:13. > :13:16.is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills
:13:17. > :13:20.for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they
:13:21. > :13:25.will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is
:13:26. > :13:29.a credible government, making a credible case, very different to
:13:30. > :13:33.what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,
:13:34. > :13:39.Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist
:13:40. > :13:48.policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to
:13:49. > :13:52.this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money
:13:53. > :13:56.pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,
:13:57. > :14:01.social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has
:14:02. > :14:05.been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the
:14:06. > :14:09.difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to
:14:10. > :14:12.do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good
:14:13. > :14:18.times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories
:14:19. > :14:23.would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to
:14:24. > :14:29.some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in
:14:30. > :14:38.the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really
:14:39. > :14:41.are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate
:14:42. > :14:46.this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to
:14:47. > :14:51.their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to
:14:52. > :14:54.fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition
:14:55. > :14:58.policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to
:14:59. > :15:02.hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition
:15:03. > :15:07.partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy
:15:08. > :15:12.into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,
:15:13. > :15:15.if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill
:15:16. > :15:20.because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is
:15:21. > :15:23.entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do
:15:24. > :15:28.not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in
:15:29. > :15:34.Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David
:15:35. > :15:39.Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to
:15:40. > :15:58.local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...
:15:59. > :16:02.Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the
:16:03. > :16:07.Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In
:16:08. > :16:11.the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using
:16:12. > :16:15.CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to
:16:16. > :16:19.act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised
:16:20. > :16:24.councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release
:16:25. > :16:29.land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new
:16:30. > :16:34.homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a
:16:35. > :16:38.week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active
:16:39. > :16:43.Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is
:16:44. > :16:46.it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric
:16:47. > :17:00.Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.
:17:01. > :17:06.Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town
:17:07. > :17:15.halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from
:17:16. > :17:22.Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going
:17:23. > :17:29.beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up
:17:30. > :17:34.their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked
:17:35. > :17:39.councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.
:17:40. > :17:45.Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.
:17:46. > :17:52.You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If
:17:53. > :17:59.you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks
:18:00. > :18:03.before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no
:18:04. > :18:09.possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to
:18:10. > :18:14.people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and
:18:15. > :18:22.it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund
:18:23. > :18:26.general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are
:18:27. > :18:34.breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local
:18:35. > :18:41.residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to
:18:42. > :18:48.micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high
:18:49. > :18:51.street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local
:18:52. > :18:59.authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If
:19:00. > :19:02.you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway
:19:03. > :19:09.but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials
:19:10. > :19:15.for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and
:19:16. > :19:20.get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a
:19:21. > :19:26.matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the
:19:27. > :19:34.side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of
:19:35. > :19:38.milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the
:19:39. > :19:44.council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You
:19:45. > :19:48.have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes
:19:49. > :19:59.should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help
:20:00. > :20:05.meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in
:20:06. > :20:16.charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some
:20:17. > :20:25.responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning
:20:26. > :20:30.decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They
:20:31. > :20:38.want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and
:20:39. > :20:43.district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision
:20:44. > :20:49.runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a
:20:50. > :20:57.blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to
:20:58. > :21:11.judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled
:21:12. > :21:16.to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that
:21:17. > :21:24.is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision
:21:25. > :21:27.that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an
:21:28. > :21:35.inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12,
:21:36. > :21:42.he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and
:21:43. > :21:46.local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being
:21:47. > :21:59.plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper
:22:00. > :22:03.quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local
:22:04. > :22:10.people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They
:22:11. > :22:15.have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government
:22:16. > :22:23.decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the
:22:24. > :22:26.lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local
:22:27. > :22:36.authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green
:22:37. > :22:40.belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are
:22:41. > :22:48.particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been
:22:49. > :22:59.referred back. the green belt. The matter has been
:23:00. > :23:05.want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want
:23:06. > :23:05.to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green
:23:06. > :23:13.belt. Not to remember why we have the green
:23:14. > :23:13.nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one
:23:14. > :23:17.another. Your conurbations bumping into one
:23:18. > :23:23.is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under
:23:24. > :23:35.provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.
:23:36. > :23:35.provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting
:23:36. > :23:38.there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot
:23:39. > :23:40.there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting
:23:41. > :23:53.housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where
:23:54. > :23:59.the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has
:24:00. > :24:05.steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism
:24:06. > :24:10.agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the
:24:11. > :24:16.housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations
:24:17. > :24:21.have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is
:24:22. > :24:27.nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to
:24:28. > :24:33.be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure
:24:34. > :24:40.there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000
:24:41. > :24:45.homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will
:24:46. > :24:50.mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on
:24:51. > :24:55.its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green
:24:56. > :24:59.belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell
:25:00. > :25:03.get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to
:25:04. > :25:11.sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his
:25:12. > :25:15.version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in
:25:16. > :25:23.government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?
:25:24. > :25:27.Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls
:25:28. > :25:33.said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done
:25:34. > :25:37.that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept
:25:38. > :25:44.the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have
:25:45. > :25:49.an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can
:25:50. > :25:55.move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that
:25:56. > :26:02.is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,
:26:03. > :26:07.you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press
:26:08. > :26:15.has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We
:26:16. > :26:21.had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better
:26:22. > :26:33.compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that
:26:34. > :26:42.we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there
:26:43. > :26:56.you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my
:26:57. > :27:02.personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and
:27:03. > :27:08.took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become
:27:09. > :27:13.a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one
:27:14. > :27:21.day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would
:27:22. > :27:29.they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I
:27:30. > :27:37.went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.
:27:38. > :27:40.On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be
:27:41. > :27:44.questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the
:27:45. > :27:47.incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the
:27:48. > :27:49.government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent
:27:50. > :27:51.Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and
:27:52. > :27:57.integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.
:27:58. > :28:04.So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's
:28:05. > :28:10.Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the
:28:11. > :28:13.police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher
:28:14. > :28:19.called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.
:28:20. > :28:23.It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament
:28:24. > :28:28.After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the
:28:29. > :28:32.ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both
:28:33. > :28:37.were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their
:28:38. > :28:44.trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events
:28:45. > :28:51.just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this
:28:52. > :28:55.which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So
:28:56. > :29:02.when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would
:29:03. > :29:06.not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people
:29:07. > :29:11.have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us
:29:12. > :29:14.believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.
:29:15. > :29:21.And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out
:29:22. > :29:24.about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to
:29:25. > :29:30.congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply
:29:31. > :29:34.acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last
:29:35. > :29:38.September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing
:29:39. > :29:41.Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations
:29:42. > :29:47.he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the
:29:48. > :29:51.police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied
:29:52. > :29:56.about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to
:29:57. > :30:00.the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the
:30:01. > :30:05.police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The
:30:06. > :30:11.prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson
:30:12. > :30:14.during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were
:30:15. > :30:19.told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest
:30:20. > :30:24.by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really
:30:25. > :30:28.relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's
:30:29. > :30:31.view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of
:30:32. > :30:39.the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since
:30:40. > :30:48.pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago.
:30:49. > :30:54.Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be
:30:55. > :30:58.that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently
:30:59. > :31:03.seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a
:31:04. > :31:10.police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still
:31:11. > :31:14.a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is
:31:15. > :31:17.affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think
:31:18. > :31:23.politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.
:31:24. > :31:30.Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust
:31:31. > :31:36.in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former
:31:37. > :31:42.chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the
:31:43. > :31:48.cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,
:31:49. > :31:53.the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of
:31:54. > :31:57.deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural
:31:58. > :32:02.deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual
:32:03. > :32:05.issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of
:32:06. > :32:14.them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive
:32:15. > :32:18.about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen
:32:19. > :32:20.with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior
:32:21. > :32:31.officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies
:32:32. > :32:35.being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start
:32:36. > :32:41.with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed
:32:42. > :32:45.for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got
:32:46. > :32:51.this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces
:32:52. > :32:59.there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a
:33:00. > :33:03.handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police
:33:04. > :33:07.officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even
:33:08. > :33:16.today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken
:33:17. > :33:19.to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some
:33:20. > :33:26.of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the
:33:27. > :33:31.evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a
:33:32. > :33:34.lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has
:33:35. > :33:38.clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The
:33:39. > :33:44.audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet
:33:45. > :33:48.minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not
:33:49. > :33:51.been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending
:33:52. > :33:57.to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in
:33:58. > :34:00.prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of
:34:01. > :34:04.different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in
:34:05. > :34:08.Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there
:34:09. > :34:12.are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to
:34:13. > :34:15.have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting
:34:16. > :34:24.issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been
:34:25. > :34:27.misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an
:34:28. > :34:32.organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and
:34:33. > :34:35.destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the
:34:36. > :34:39.Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their
:34:40. > :34:43.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the
:34:44. > :34:46.public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are
:34:47. > :34:51.going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police
:34:52. > :35:00.would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there
:35:01. > :35:05.if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a
:35:06. > :35:11.Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We
:35:12. > :35:16.know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if
:35:17. > :35:20.not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a
:35:21. > :35:24.misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what
:35:25. > :35:31.is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has
:35:32. > :35:37.told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn t.
:35:38. > :35:42.He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,
:35:43. > :35:47.he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not
:35:48. > :35:52.said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police
:35:53. > :35:56.forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the
:35:57. > :36:02.land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in
:36:03. > :36:07.society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but
:36:08. > :36:15.what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad
:36:16. > :36:18.apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people
:36:19. > :36:22.thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the
:36:23. > :36:27.bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are
:36:28. > :36:30.standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does
:36:31. > :36:34.not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with
:36:35. > :36:39.a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to
:36:40. > :36:42.be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution ..
:36:43. > :36:50.For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is
:36:51. > :36:56.there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,
:36:57. > :37:00.you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved
:37:01. > :37:04.that anybody has been fitted up We are yet to hear what happened at the
:37:05. > :37:09.gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing
:37:10. > :37:16.Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had
:37:17. > :37:25.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.
:37:26. > :37:32.That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All
:37:33. > :37:43.right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as
:37:44. > :37:47.a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics
:37:48. > :37:51.should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on
:37:52. > :37:55.strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for
:37:56. > :38:01.that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a
:38:02. > :38:07.more competent and properly resourced Independent police
:38:08. > :38:11.commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police
:38:12. > :38:18.officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force
:38:19. > :38:24.we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will
:38:25. > :38:27.leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking
:38:28. > :38:37.to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead,
:38:38. > :38:42.Hello and welcome to the part of the programme just for us here in the
:38:43. > :38:45.east. I'm Etholle George. Today, we go where David Cameron
:38:46. > :38:48.fears to tread ` the question which he was pleased not to have to answer
:38:49. > :39:02.at Prime Minister's Questions. And food or fuel? The row over what
:39:03. > :39:08.we're using our fields for. This is something that that is at the
:39:09. > :39:13.cutting edge of diversity. I think it is a shame that we are now
:39:14. > :39:15.getting disincentives to these organisations that are trying to do
:39:16. > :39:18.something ethically sound. First let's meet our guests. David
:39:19. > :39:22.Ruffley is Conservative MP for Bury St Edmunds and Andrew Boswell who is
:39:23. > :39:24.a Green Party councillor both on Norwich City Council and on Norfolk
:39:25. > :39:27.County Council. And let's start with the Prime
:39:28. > :39:35.Minister, because this is what he was pleased to avoid at Prime
:39:36. > :39:41.Minister's Questions this week. Thank you. I originally intended to
:39:42. > :39:45.raise the issue of the road with my honourable friend. Can I thank her
:39:46. > :39:50.for forsaking the issue of the eighth 14... Well he may not be keen
:39:51. > :39:56.about questions about that road, but there have been a lot around. The
:39:57. > :40:02.end of the public consultation on the toll road. MPs argued that their
:40:03. > :40:07.constituents would be paying Cambridge's congestion charge. So,
:40:08. > :40:12.this sounds like serious rift between Suffolk and Cambridge.
:40:13. > :40:17.Suffolk was not properly consulted. It is also the case that the
:40:18. > :40:23.ministers in the department weren't really aware until recently of the
:40:24. > :40:30.concern in Suffolk, I have spoken to the Secretary of State for transport
:40:31. > :40:35.and the Roads Minister. We will see them as stretch that Suffolk should
:40:36. > :40:41.not be painful Cambridge's problem. It will not be the case that you can
:40:42. > :40:45.use the existing A14 once the relief road is built. Heavy goods vehicles
:40:46. > :40:50.will not be able to travel freely and even saloon cars will
:40:51. > :40:57.effectively be on a second`class road, it is not acceptable. It will
:40:58. > :41:07.make Suffolk the odd county out and add it will be a road apartheid. I
:41:08. > :41:15.am very concerned that we are going to be spending ?1.5 billion just to
:41:16. > :41:20.create more congestion. We also will create an air quality problem and in
:41:21. > :41:23.fact the road proposals as they stand may well breach the air
:41:24. > :41:30.quality standards and we are beginning to see issues like the
:41:31. > :41:37.World Health Organisation says that sort of air pollution is responsible
:41:38. > :41:42.for lung cancer and is a factor. There are serious issues. They
:41:43. > :41:45.could, if your Government cannot afford to pay for it, it is not
:41:46. > :41:52.unreasonable to expect people who are using the Road to do that?
:41:53. > :41:56.Exactly. There is an idea kicking around that Cambridge city should
:41:57. > :42:01.introduce a congestion charge so those around it should and in it
:42:02. > :42:06.should pay the kind of charge you find in London, for instance, which
:42:07. > :42:11.was introduced by Ken Livingstone and kept by Boris Johnson. It should
:42:12. > :42:16.not be the case that Suffolk is essentially being poll tax. Giving
:42:17. > :42:24.you cannot stop the road, do you accept that a toll is a good idea? I
:42:25. > :42:29.don't think having an apartheid in the road system is good. I would
:42:30. > :42:35.support the congestion charge in a city like Cambridge where there is a
:42:36. > :42:39.lot of congestion. I think there are alternatives though. For example,
:42:40. > :42:47.the residents of Brampton are already surrounded me the A14
:42:48. > :42:52.junction with four I `` lanes either side. They are very worried about
:42:53. > :42:55.the air quality. Well the European Parliament is
:42:56. > :42:58.generally held to be a slightly more civilised affair than the
:42:59. > :43:00.Westminster bear pit, but not apparently this week. And the
:43:01. > :43:05.subject raising hackles? Biofuel. That's crops being grown to fuel
:43:06. > :43:09.vehicles. You may be surprised to learn how big a business it is here
:43:10. > :43:12.in the east. At the Wissington sugar beet factory near Kings Lynn, for
:43:13. > :43:15.example, they produce 77 million litres of bioethanol a year, one
:43:16. > :43:23.tenth of all the green petrol used in the UK. Which is why there's real
:43:24. > :43:26.concern over EU plans to cut the amount of agricultural land allowed
:43:27. > :43:29.for the use of growing crops for biofuel from 10% to 6% All day
:43:30. > :43:31.lorries pour into British Sugar's Wissington factory on the edge of
:43:32. > :43:58.the Fens. But nearly a quarter of the beet
:43:59. > :44:09.arriving here won't end up as sugar. Instead it's turned into bioethanol
:44:10. > :44:13.for road fuel. In 2007, British Sugar opened its plant at it wishing
:44:14. > :44:19.to and works. It held the company used up sugar beet production. Just
:44:20. > :44:23.six years on, the European Union seems the beginning to get cold feet
:44:24. > :44:26.about producing biofuels from productive farmland. Why? Well,
:44:27. > :44:30.picture a swathe of farmland nearly eight miles long by five miles wide.
:44:31. > :44:35.That's what it takes to feed Wissington's bioethanol plant. The
:44:36. > :44:39.European Parliament fears the current target for 10% of road fuel
:44:40. > :44:46.to be sourced from food crops is displacing food production, pushing
:44:47. > :44:50.up food prices. So it's voted to cut the figure to 6% to the dismay of
:44:51. > :44:59.some working in the East Anglia's energy sector. These were really
:45:00. > :45:06.quite innovative ways in which excess produce to produce biofuels
:45:07. > :45:11.to assist us in cutting our nations. That was the interesting
:45:12. > :45:15.and novel thing we are doing and it was at the cutting edge of diversity
:45:16. > :45:20.in terms of biofuels. I think it is a shame that we are getting
:45:21. > :45:23.disincentives now. At Lotus' headquarters in Norfolk they have
:45:24. > :45:36.little doubt biofuels are the future. For five years, Lotus has
:45:37. > :45:40.been experimenting with biofuels. This runs on a mix of bio ethanol.
:45:41. > :45:45.The company is passionate that they should be sourced in a way that does
:45:46. > :45:50.not sacrifice valuable agricultural land. In a building over their is
:45:51. > :46:01.something much more interesting. `` over there. This is an advanced
:46:02. > :46:05.cell. This is our omnivore engine, it is designed to run on a variety
:46:06. > :46:09.of fuels. If we look at other countries, they already run fuels
:46:10. > :46:14.with high ethanol content and what we have. Alcohol is used as a ratio
:46:15. > :46:20.in the States, as well. The technology is there. I would say it
:46:21. > :46:26.is not the technology that is holding things back, it is one of
:46:27. > :46:29.the social implications, political implications, of moving the
:46:30. > :46:32.technology on. The EU wants to encourage greater use of alternative
:46:33. > :46:35.sources of biofuels. This new gas refuelling station for lorries in
:46:36. > :46:39.Daventry uses biomethane, sourced from rotting rubbish at a landfill
:46:40. > :46:41.site. At the Institute of Food Research in Norwich, they're
:46:42. > :46:49.investigating how heat and pressure can be used to turn anything from
:46:50. > :46:58.wood shavings to straw into biofuel. The potential for making bio ethanol
:46:59. > :47:04.from food waste and things like that is getting close to commercial
:47:05. > :47:09.viability. There has been a lot of research into it over the last ten
:47:10. > :47:13.or 15 years and the process itself are becoming understood. It cost ?20
:47:14. > :47:16.million to build British Sugar's bioethanol plant at Wissington. If
:47:17. > :47:24.the targets for biofuels from food crops are cut future investment
:47:25. > :47:29.could be put at risk. How damaging do you think this proposal is for
:47:30. > :47:34.the East of England? It's not good news for feature investment, that is
:47:35. > :47:39.for sure. That concerns me. In terms of the technology there, people's
:47:40. > :47:42.desire to invest in technology going forward will be limited as a result
:47:43. > :47:46.of this. I think it is always dangerous if you do not know what
:47:47. > :47:49.the next policy decision will be from Europe that may patterns alter
:47:50. > :47:52.of investment. Well concern is so great over the
:47:53. > :47:56.viability of the biofuels industry that it's been the subject of a
:47:57. > :47:59.furious debate in Europe this week. And the row between two competing
:48:00. > :48:03.committees has now stalled the plan for cuts. Conservative MEP Vicky
:48:04. > :48:11.Ford wants to protect investment in the industry and slow down any
:48:12. > :48:15.reductions. You cannot change the rules for investors overnight when
:48:16. > :48:20.you only made them two years ago, these things need to be looked at in
:48:21. > :48:25.a big picture. We are at a stand off between the industry committee
:48:26. > :48:28.saying let's take more time and the environment committee who are
:48:29. > :48:30.rushing headlong into a new set of rules.
:48:31. > :48:33.But the Greens and the Liberals and Democrats in Europe are backing the
:48:34. > :48:37.move. Andrew Sinclair spoke to Andrew Duff about why he supported
:48:38. > :48:42.the change. He asked him whether supporting reductions in biofuel
:48:43. > :48:50.production was effectively a U`turn. No, it is not, it is not a whole
:48:51. > :49:03.U`turn. We are staying, please develop the industry, but strike a
:49:04. > :49:08.balance between food security and the production of power. The price
:49:09. > :49:19.of both of those things, as we all know, is going up and there is a
:49:20. > :49:27.connection between taking crops out of food and giving them to be in ``
:49:28. > :49:36.energy industry. This has potential to be quite a big damage in the
:49:37. > :49:39.biofuel industry in the East? Many litres are created. There is a ?20
:49:40. > :49:46.million plant, litres are created. There is a ?20
:49:47. > :49:57.there, I have seen, I have spoken to them a lot and they are keen to see
:49:58. > :50:04.a coherent regulation and I think that is the thing that we finally
:50:05. > :50:08.have provided them with. If you are telling them to produce less, surely
:50:09. > :50:13.that will have an impact on the business. We're not telling anyone
:50:14. > :50:21.to do anything, we are requiring them to find a market by `` market
:50:22. > :50:26.price that people can afford. The bio ethanol, the fact that they can
:50:27. > :50:34.grow to 7.5%, which is more than they are doing at the moment, is a
:50:35. > :50:44.clear encouragement for East Anglian industry which in this respect is
:50:45. > :50:49.extremely efficient and modern. So you say that the biofuel industry in
:50:50. > :50:55.our region will continue to thrive if this cap goes ahead. You will
:50:56. > :51:03.still push for a cap? Yes. The clearest judgement I could reach is
:51:04. > :51:10.that cats are needed `` the needed and I will stand on that record in
:51:11. > :51:16.the election next year. What about these manufacturers Western Mark
:51:17. > :51:26.here in the east, the investing heavily. This will impact it,
:51:27. > :51:32.wouldn't it? I don't think it will specifically. The debate was about
:51:33. > :51:40.taking the target from 5%, which it currently is, to 10% or 6%. There is
:51:41. > :51:47.headroom in the target and Andrew Duff was talking about 7.5% in some
:51:48. > :52:00.way. We have to be clear about this policy, it is very damaging to the
:52:01. > :52:07.developing world. There is a massive amount of food insecurity caused by
:52:08. > :52:11.this developing because taking agricultural crops out of the food
:52:12. > :52:14.chain and into fuel has actually increased the price of commodities
:52:15. > :52:18.and food prices. We need to have enough food as well
:52:19. > :52:24.as enough fuel, don't we? Shouldn't land be for food? Ya like it is a
:52:25. > :52:31.serious point and in the developing world, the problems are there to
:52:32. > :52:38.see. But let's look at the region. First, all agricultural producers
:52:39. > :52:42.should have the freedom to use the precious resorts which is the land
:52:43. > :52:52.in East Anglia, whether it is rape seed and beat or food. I cannot get
:52:53. > :52:58.too excited about the five or six or seven and a half target. The second
:52:59. > :53:06.important thing is... The British Sugar plant, I know how important as
:53:07. > :53:11.a source of jobs British Sugar is. And the local plant is important and
:53:12. > :53:13.I think we should defend his industries.
:53:14. > :53:16.Won't the uncertainty scare off any potential investors in new
:53:17. > :53:28.technology, which as we saw in the film, we have in this region? It may
:53:29. > :53:36.do. I personally don't think that biofuels... They link in the way
:53:37. > :53:40.people travel to entirely to the internal combustion engine, we need
:53:41. > :53:47.to be link from that. We need to get away from fossil fees. Most of the
:53:48. > :53:53.biofuels go in at about 5%. So we are still talking about 95% fossil
:53:54. > :53:56.fuels being used in a vehicle. That is seriously damaging to the
:53:57. > :54:01.environment. We need to be thinking much more about electric vehicles
:54:02. > :54:07.and how we reduce carbon in the energy sector to generate clean
:54:08. > :54:12.electricity. Briefly, your party pledged to be the greenest garden ``
:54:13. > :54:17.Government ever. But it seems UK then when it affects industry. By
:54:18. > :54:24.2020, we all agree that 50% of energy should be generated by
:54:25. > :54:29.renewables. We should be supporting it locally. I think biofuels is a
:54:30. > :54:37.part of that. It is jobs for East Anglian, that is what I am worried
:54:38. > :54:41.about. Well the only rail franchise in
:54:42. > :54:44.public ownership is the East Coast mainline which runs from Kings Cross
:54:45. > :54:47.in London through Stevenage and Peterborough to the north. It's just
:54:48. > :54:51.handed the treasury more than ?200 million pounds. This week, the Green
:54:52. > :54:53.Party has been lobbying to keep the franchise public with a 23,000
:54:54. > :54:56.strong petition. They were at Peterborough station talking to
:54:57. > :55:00.travellers. But they don't want to just stop at the East Coast: they're
:55:01. > :55:08.campaigning to bring the entire railway system back into Government
:55:09. > :55:12.hands as franchises run out. The Green Party is behind a nationalised
:55:13. > :55:17.public transport system and a system which works in an integrated fashion
:55:18. > :55:21.and a system which is fair. We don't actually think that people should be
:55:22. > :55:25.paying hidden taxes when they travel, because that falls on fairly
:55:26. > :55:31.on people with small incomes. Attack it sounds like you are harking back
:55:32. > :55:35.to the days of British rail. In Iraq I think a lot of people would want
:55:36. > :55:38.it back. It's not been a great advert for
:55:39. > :55:41.privatisation, the east coast mainline running so much better
:55:42. > :55:51.since it was taken back into Government hands? I think there is a
:55:52. > :55:55.case of selective amnesia here. I don't think turning the clock back
:55:56. > :56:01.is the solution. Do I defend every single privatised line, they could
:56:02. > :56:05.do better. It depends on the operator. I do not think that we
:56:06. > :56:11.should renationalise. It is going back to an age that never existed.
:56:12. > :56:17.We are talking about going forward to a 21st`century different way of
:56:18. > :56:20.doing nationalisation. If you look at the experience of privatisation,
:56:21. > :56:25.we have seen real prices go up for the average person by 23% under
:56:26. > :56:32.privatisation. We have seen all the problems were you have a fragmented
:56:33. > :56:40.system, maintenance separated from the companies and so on. What we are
:56:41. > :56:44.talking about and Caroline Lucas's private members bill which has been
:56:45. > :56:47.taken for a second reading in Parliament is that it is
:56:48. > :56:51.incrementally moved back to a nationalised system. Every time one
:56:52. > :56:56.of these franchises comes back, it can be brought back into... Think of
:56:57. > :57:03.what you could do. If this has proved so successful, ?200 million,
:57:04. > :57:10.why privatise again? This idea of keeping it in public ownership, they
:57:11. > :57:15.enter `` the idea that investment will be paid for by the tax by his
:57:16. > :57:21.ridiculous. Prices will have to be set to make sure that investment is
:57:22. > :57:26.put back into the industry. I think that the idea that if it is not
:57:27. > :57:29.privatised then the tax burden will be coughing up because the
:57:30. > :57:33.maintenance and upkeep has to be paid for and I don't think the
:57:34. > :57:40.experiment or the history of public ownership is significantly better
:57:41. > :57:43.than the privatised alternative. Is it a minute ago that you won't be
:57:44. > :57:50.ideological. That sounded ideological. It is making a
:57:51. > :57:55.profit... do you think British rail was perfect? It was significantly
:57:56. > :58:02.better... We're not talking about going back to British rail. But a
:58:03. > :58:08.different model. Andrew Boswell, would you read nationalised anything
:58:09. > :58:13.else? I would certainly be in favour of nationalising some other
:58:14. > :58:19.industries, as well. I think we lose a lot with the privatisation model.
:58:20. > :58:24.We have to leave it there. They're not doing everything wrong. I need
:58:25. > :58:28.to keep the programme on track. Now, from the state of our army to
:58:29. > :58:33.the safety of our seas, it's all in our 60 second round up with Deborah
:58:34. > :58:36.McGurran. Former Fusilier, John Baron, leading
:58:37. > :58:44.the campaign this week to save second Battalion, the Royal Regiment
:58:45. > :58:50.of Fusiliers. It makes no sense whatsoever, scrapping battalions
:58:51. > :58:52.while probably recruited ones are being saved.
:58:53. > :58:55.And Julian Huppert wants to save sixth form colleges some money. He's
:58:56. > :58:58.written to Michael Gove saying it's unfair that schools are exempt from
:58:59. > :59:05.VAT, but sixth form colleges are not. There is a cross`party group of
:59:06. > :59:08.us trying to really push that, to give the money back to the sixth
:59:09. > :59:09.form colleges so it can be used more usefully.
:59:10. > :59:13.There's growing speculation that money from China could pave the way
:59:14. > :59:17.for a new nuclear power station in Suffolk.
:59:18. > :59:23.And support grew for Alistair Burt MP at PMQs after he lost his foreign
:59:24. > :59:26.affairs job in the reshuffle. But bad news for the Coastguard
:59:27. > :59:28.centre at Walton`on`the`Naze which will close in June 2015, the
:59:29. > :59:46.Government has confirmed. Andrew Boswell, what about a Chinese
:59:47. > :59:53.backed Sizewell? Nuclear energy is not necessarily carbon free, but I
:59:54. > :59:57.am concerned to see the Government going down the nuclear route. We
:59:58. > :00:02.don't know how to solve the waste problem, there is still waste from
:00:03. > :00:09.1957 that has not been cleared up. We have seen things that happened at
:00:10. > :00:14.Fukushima, and there is a huge amount we can do with renewable
:00:15. > :00:18.energy. Actually, George Osborne made a big mistake in terms of
:00:19. > :00:22.putting off investors in his speech to the Conservative Party prop ``
:00:23. > :00:30.party conference when he made the comment about not being... That put
:00:31. > :00:37.off investors. They comment on that. George Osborne talking about the
:00:38. > :00:43.links with China, what about these links with Chinese industry? I am
:00:44. > :00:48.quite relaxed. There are security issues, but we have foreign
:00:49. > :01:02.ownership... Why are their security issues? They are a superpower. There
:01:03. > :01:05.are security issues, nuclear is something strategically very
:01:06. > :01:09.important. We have to be a bit careful, but we have East Anglia
:01:10. > :01:13.docks which are owned by far Eastern companies, I cannot get excited
:01:14. > :01:19.about foreign ownership. Do we need nuclear? Of course we do. Thank you
:01:20. > :01:24.both very much for joining us today. That is all for now. As always, you
:01:25. > :01:27.can keep in touch via our website when you will also find links to our
:01:28. > :01:30.blocks for all the latest. We will when you will also find links to our
:01:31. > :01:34.down immigration, but not in any way which links in with this. Thank you
:01:35. > :01:43.to both of you for being my guests today.
:01:44. > :01:51.Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg
:01:52. > :01:57.kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love
:01:58. > :02:04.bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by
:02:05. > :02:08.the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne.
:02:09. > :02:15.Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in
:02:16. > :02:22.the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those
:02:23. > :02:26.who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview
:02:27. > :02:37.that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on
:02:38. > :02:41.up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I
:02:42. > :02:46.do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly
:02:47. > :02:51.Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party.
:02:52. > :02:55.I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal
:02:56. > :02:59.party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it,
:03:00. > :03:04.fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should
:03:05. > :03:10.be on the liberal centre ground But is it actually veering to the left,
:03:11. > :03:14.your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any
:03:15. > :03:22.organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look
:03:23. > :03:27.inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not
:03:28. > :03:32.want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of
:03:33. > :03:36.people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards
:03:37. > :03:40.and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have
:03:41. > :03:42.got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting
:03:43. > :03:49.the deficit down, cutting crime keeping interest rates low, and
:03:50. > :03:53.also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax
:03:54. > :03:56.and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and
:03:57. > :04:00.ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us
:04:01. > :04:03.credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able
:04:04. > :04:07.to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our
:04:08. > :04:13.policies excesses in government I want us to be confident, outward
:04:14. > :04:17.looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense
:04:18. > :04:22.that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore
:04:23. > :04:26.make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance
:04:27. > :04:34.himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free
:04:35. > :04:43.schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating
:04:44. > :04:46.area, so let's explore it a bit We have had two very significant and
:04:47. > :04:50.troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn,
:04:51. > :04:53.saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other
:04:54. > :04:58.words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get
:04:59. > :05:00.on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our
:05:01. > :05:04.competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms
:05:05. > :05:10.of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are
:05:11. > :05:12.worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two
:05:13. > :05:18.thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are
:05:19. > :05:26.failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were
:05:27. > :05:29.the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting
:05:30. > :05:32.conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we
:05:33. > :05:35.are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which
:05:36. > :05:39.have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need
:05:40. > :05:44.to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good
:05:45. > :05:47.quality education in order to realise their full potential in
:05:48. > :05:54.life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I
:05:55. > :06:00.think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we
:06:01. > :06:03.should be instinctively statist and I do not think either we should be
:06:04. > :06:08.instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a
:06:09. > :06:12.restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is
:06:13. > :06:16.about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity
:06:17. > :06:20.in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education
:06:21. > :06:23.system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some
:06:24. > :06:29.schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this
:06:30. > :06:33.country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful
:06:34. > :06:47.stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success.
:06:48. > :06:51.Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right
:06:52. > :06:59.word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the
:07:00. > :07:03.Conservatives have, if you like made some advances or generous
:07:04. > :07:06.suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal
:07:07. > :07:09.Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was
:07:10. > :07:14.founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned
:07:15. > :07:19.tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am
:07:20. > :07:23.not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this
:07:24. > :07:29.on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few
:07:30. > :07:32.liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn,
:07:33. > :07:37.who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in
:07:38. > :07:40.the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats,
:07:41. > :07:50.should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no
:07:51. > :07:55.political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested
:07:56. > :08:00.that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next
:08:01. > :08:04.election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The
:08:05. > :08:08.Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates
:08:09. > :08:12.they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of
:08:13. > :08:25.the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not
:08:26. > :08:31.from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of
:08:32. > :08:33.a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living
:08:34. > :08:37.standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it
:08:38. > :08:43.was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning
:08:44. > :08:48.the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from
:08:49. > :08:53.the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he
:08:54. > :08:56.makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a
:08:57. > :09:01.guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were
:09:02. > :09:03.there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the
:09:04. > :09:08.economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth,
:09:09. > :09:13.they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne
:09:14. > :09:17.came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported
:09:18. > :09:21.free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but
:09:22. > :09:24.on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free
:09:25. > :09:28.schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David
:09:29. > :09:32.Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising,
:09:33. > :09:41.which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming
:09:42. > :09:46.right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would
:09:47. > :09:48.not get the credit anyway. Well if they diss associate themselves like
:09:49. > :09:54.this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters
:09:55. > :09:59.their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it
:10:00. > :10:03.is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters
:10:04. > :10:10.from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not
:10:11. > :10:14.Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the
:10:15. > :10:20.Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I
:10:21. > :10:26.wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be
:10:27. > :10:31.organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they
:10:32. > :10:34.have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send
:10:35. > :10:43.messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me.
:10:44. > :10:52.Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who,
:10:53. > :10:58.according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That s
:10:59. > :11:05.right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at
:11:06. > :11:09.Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from
:11:10. > :11:16.Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting
:11:17. > :11:20.that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power
:11:21. > :11:24.stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas
:11:25. > :11:28.to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the
:11:29. > :11:34.power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot
:11:35. > :11:38.of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your
:11:39. > :11:44.balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop
:11:45. > :11:48.with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which
:11:49. > :11:55.will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them.
:11:56. > :11:59.It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after
:12:00. > :12:04.George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK
:12:05. > :12:13.Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate
:12:14. > :12:18.in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and
:12:19. > :12:22.there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron
:12:23. > :12:24.trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were
:12:25. > :12:28.annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the
:12:29. > :12:34.Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George
:12:35. > :12:40.Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about
:12:41. > :12:47.any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five
:12:48. > :12:50.years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a
:12:51. > :13:01.special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go
:13:02. > :13:08.wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate
:13:09. > :13:11.this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving
:13:12. > :13:19.them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all
:13:20. > :13:23.eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the
:13:24. > :13:29.recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on
:13:30. > :13:34.which basis it can influence the result of the next general
:13:35. > :13:37.election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on
:13:38. > :13:41.Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the
:13:42. > :13:45.assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary
:13:46. > :13:54.policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means
:13:55. > :13:59.interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today.
:14:00. > :14:02.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with
:14:03. > :14:06.prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be
:14:07. > :14:13.back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday.