:00:37. > :00:43.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on
:00:44. > :00:48.the war path over pay day loans your energy bill and what he calls
:00:49. > :00:52.the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls
:00:53. > :00:56.don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's
:00:57. > :01:00.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage
:01:01. > :01:09.won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be
:01:10. > :01:12.talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page
:01:13. > :01:15.three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with
:01:16. > :01:34.some balls. Stay. It is good fun Here in the east, one year on.
:01:35. > :01:46.It is free choice. In London, the row over the super sewer rumbles on.
:01:47. > :01:51.And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars
:01:52. > :01:56.auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on
:01:57. > :02:01.your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:02:02. > :02:04.First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night
:02:05. > :02:14.without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies
:02:15. > :02:17.didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear
:02:18. > :02:21.programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another
:02:22. > :02:23.meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign
:02:24. > :02:27.Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the
:02:28. > :02:36.question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good
:02:37. > :02:41.chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and
:02:42. > :02:47.negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of
:02:48. > :02:54.energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal
:02:55. > :03:00.which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to
:03:01. > :03:05.be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put
:03:06. > :03:10.the case for the kind of deal we are looking
:03:11. > :03:10.the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world,
:03:11. > :03:16.including interests of the whole world,
:03:17. > :03:20.the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in
:03:21. > :03:24.this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear
:03:25. > :03:28.proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about
:03:29. > :03:36.this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about
:03:37. > :03:41.prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor
:03:42. > :03:54.it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French.
:03:55. > :04:00.France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a
:04:01. > :04:05.disruptive influence in Lebanon I am reasonably optimistic a deal will
:04:06. > :04:09.be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic
:04:10. > :04:17.sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have
:04:18. > :04:22.pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new
:04:23. > :04:30.president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions.
:04:31. > :04:37.I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these
:04:38. > :04:45.talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at
:04:46. > :04:50.official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which
:04:51. > :04:55.has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly
:04:56. > :05:05.defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to
:05:06. > :05:14.go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they
:05:15. > :05:23.cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows
:05:24. > :05:28.the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that
:05:29. > :05:35.with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the
:05:36. > :05:43.Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could
:05:44. > :05:50.still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are
:05:51. > :05:54.interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are
:05:55. > :06:00.trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who
:06:01. > :06:06.are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is
:06:07. > :06:12.that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is
:06:13. > :06:20.prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about
:06:21. > :06:25.Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who
:06:26. > :06:30.is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel
:06:31. > :06:33.Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card
:06:34. > :06:37.list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp
:06:38. > :06:46.rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November
:06:47. > :06:51.the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt
:06:52. > :06:54.to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the
:06:55. > :07:00.Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all
:07:01. > :07:05.of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again you
:07:06. > :07:10.talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.
:07:11. > :07:17.The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have
:07:18. > :07:22.not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are
:07:23. > :07:26.doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures
:07:27. > :07:31.you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the
:07:32. > :07:35.Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a
:07:36. > :07:41.rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly
:07:42. > :07:48.opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel
:07:49. > :07:57.Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had
:07:58. > :08:00.to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it
:08:01. > :08:06.will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is
:08:07. > :08:13.now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you
:08:14. > :08:17.say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on
:08:18. > :08:22.Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband
:08:23. > :08:26.offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on
:08:27. > :08:32.Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading
:08:33. > :08:36.towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I
:08:37. > :08:41.cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get
:08:42. > :08:46.over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there
:08:47. > :08:53.will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are
:08:54. > :08:58.going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which
:08:59. > :09:03.constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly
:09:04. > :09:08.Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a
:09:09. > :09:14.realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will
:09:15. > :09:19.have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the
:09:20. > :09:24.May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as
:09:25. > :09:30.well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.
:09:31. > :09:39.Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has
:09:40. > :09:44.tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.
:09:45. > :09:49.The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP
:09:50. > :09:54.conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party
:09:55. > :09:59.is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with
:10:00. > :10:06.the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be
:10:07. > :10:12.joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's
:10:13. > :10:17.accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that
:10:18. > :10:25.would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no
:10:26. > :10:33.risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.
:10:34. > :10:40.There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this We
:10:41. > :10:46.will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will
:10:47. > :10:51.have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the
:10:52. > :11:00.world and they will create jobs The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi
:11:01. > :11:07.and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed
:11:08. > :11:12.concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we
:11:13. > :11:22.should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this
:11:23. > :11:28.a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was
:11:29. > :11:33.a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made
:11:34. > :11:38.the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say
:11:39. > :11:42.is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big
:11:43. > :11:47.businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we
:11:48. > :11:51.did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they
:11:52. > :11:56.wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,
:11:57. > :12:01.there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what
:12:02. > :12:06.the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation
:12:07. > :12:12.is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It
:12:13. > :12:18.depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are
:12:19. > :12:23.beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses
:12:24. > :12:27.are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any
:12:28. > :12:37.potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does
:12:38. > :12:43.repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the
:12:44. > :12:47.Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions
:12:48. > :12:56.to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75,
:12:57. > :13:00.the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a
:13:01. > :13:03.renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered
:13:04. > :13:10.around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will
:13:11. > :13:17.happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by
:13:18. > :13:20.Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but
:13:21. > :13:24.they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going
:13:25. > :13:31.to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ
:13:32. > :13:34.them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will
:13:35. > :13:39.be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to
:13:40. > :13:52.break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.
:13:53. > :14:08.-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am
:14:09. > :14:13.not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the
:14:14. > :14:19.referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.
:14:20. > :14:23.Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining
:14:24. > :14:28.sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29
:14:29. > :14:39.million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is
:14:40. > :14:50.technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open
:14:51. > :15:02.door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29
:15:03. > :15:12.million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29
:15:13. > :15:18.million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million
:15:19. > :15:22.people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will
:15:23. > :15:29.do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70
:15:30. > :15:37.million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say
:15:38. > :15:42.that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 4
:15:43. > :15:46.without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another
:15:47. > :15:51.massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such
:15:52. > :16:01.a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your
:16:02. > :16:04.anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was
:16:05. > :16:09.representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it
:16:10. > :16:13.was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place
:16:14. > :16:17.this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won
:16:18. > :16:21.the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that
:16:22. > :16:25.doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put
:16:26. > :16:29.together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows
:16:30. > :16:34.that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped
:16:35. > :16:37.it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we
:16:38. > :16:41.are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.
:16:42. > :16:46.Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible
:16:47. > :16:51.and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and
:16:52. > :16:53.crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and
:16:54. > :16:56.subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration
:16:57. > :17:00.issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the
:17:01. > :17:05.European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians
:17:06. > :17:08.flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.
:17:09. > :17:13.Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good
:17:14. > :17:17.for you, it will stir things up If you say to people in poor countries,
:17:18. > :17:22.you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system
:17:23. > :17:26.claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You
:17:27. > :17:31.are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if
:17:32. > :17:35.only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk
:17:36. > :17:38.and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European
:17:39. > :17:42.election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.
:17:43. > :17:46.The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his
:17:47. > :17:49.leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He
:17:50. > :17:52.bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,
:17:53. > :17:57.delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech
:17:58. > :18:00.of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and
:18:01. > :18:05.promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The
:18:06. > :18:12.next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about
:18:13. > :18:19.how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the
:18:20. > :18:28.Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and
:18:29. > :18:32.character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between
:18:33. > :18:37.me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was
:18:38. > :18:41.Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the
:18:42. > :18:46.tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the
:18:47. > :18:51.tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the
:18:52. > :18:54.bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,
:18:55. > :18:57.here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime
:18:58. > :19:07.Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who
:19:08. > :19:12.repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party
:19:13. > :19:18.faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's
:19:19. > :19:26.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the
:19:27. > :19:32.bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off
:19:33. > :19:35.Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was
:19:36. > :19:40.stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think
:19:41. > :19:44.that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be
:19:45. > :19:48.justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually
:19:49. > :19:52.help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes
:19:53. > :19:57.that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being
:19:58. > :20:01.incentivised by the bedroom tax so basically if you are a council
:20:02. > :20:05.tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,
:20:06. > :20:09.then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.
:20:10. > :20:13.That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96 of
:20:14. > :20:16.the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a
:20:17. > :20:20.smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore
:20:21. > :20:24.they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one
:20:25. > :20:30.spare bedroom, they are hit by 700 a year extra to pay and that is
:20:31. > :20:34.completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for
:20:35. > :20:39.their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not
:20:40. > :20:43.depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?
:20:44. > :20:49.Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.
:20:50. > :20:53.What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of
:20:54. > :20:58.Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've
:20:59. > :21:02.come off benefits, of the 233,0 0 affected, it's about 11%. These
:21:03. > :21:06.people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit
:21:07. > :21:11.in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits
:21:12. > :21:14.who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them
:21:15. > :21:19.will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find
:21:20. > :21:23.work, or who find work where it s low-paid and need help with their
:21:24. > :21:27.rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their
:21:28. > :21:31.family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to
:21:32. > :21:35.move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,
:21:36. > :21:39.or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are
:21:40. > :21:44.low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because
:21:45. > :21:47.of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was
:21:48. > :21:51.commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change
:21:52. > :21:54.and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,
:21:55. > :21:58.some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have
:21:59. > :22:01.waited until you have got the independent research, that
:22:02. > :22:04.independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In
:22:05. > :22:08.fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their
:22:09. > :22:12.independent research before they bought into effect something and
:22:13. > :22:18.imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have
:22:19. > :22:22.known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could
:22:23. > :22:26.have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into
:22:27. > :22:30.smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from
:22:31. > :22:33.councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move
:22:34. > :22:37.into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should
:22:38. > :22:40.have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are
:22:41. > :22:44.absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into
:22:45. > :22:48.rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you
:22:49. > :22:53.can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies
:22:54. > :22:57.to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The
:22:58. > :23:01.justification for it, which is people will move, is completely
:23:02. > :23:07.bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare
:23:08. > :23:10.reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's
:23:11. > :23:15.welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are
:23:16. > :23:18.you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own
:23:19. > :23:22.supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job
:23:23. > :23:26.actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said
:23:27. > :23:30.that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a
:23:31. > :23:34.young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a
:23:35. > :23:38.job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as
:23:39. > :23:43.somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of
:23:44. > :23:47.unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue
:23:48. > :23:51.about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need
:23:52. > :23:54.support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't
:23:55. > :24:00.have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts
:24:01. > :24:04.the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --
:24:05. > :24:08.substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of
:24:09. > :24:14.benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour
:24:15. > :24:19.must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,
:24:20. > :24:23.redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and
:24:24. > :24:26.the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off we
:24:27. > :24:29.are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me
:24:30. > :24:34.saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think
:24:35. > :24:38.that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've
:24:39. > :24:41.been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take
:24:42. > :24:47.them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we
:24:48. > :24:51.showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles
:24:52. > :24:54.have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the
:24:55. > :24:59.Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own
:25:00. > :25:03.personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to
:25:04. > :25:08.disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody
:25:09. > :25:12.else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you
:25:13. > :25:17.the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the
:25:18. > :25:23.Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...
:25:24. > :25:25.But you're... All those who've won their seats against the
:25:26. > :25:30.Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't
:25:31. > :25:35.always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,
:25:36. > :25:41.the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and
:25:42. > :25:47.these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy
:25:48. > :25:50.grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,
:25:51. > :25:54.private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming
:25:55. > :25:59.year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow
:26:00. > :26:02.faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was
:26:03. > :26:06.flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow
:26:07. > :26:11.Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit
:26:12. > :26:14.on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding
:26:15. > :26:19.the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that
:26:20. > :26:22.what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the
:26:23. > :26:26.recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I
:26:27. > :26:33.understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are
:26:34. > :26:36.no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the
:26:37. > :26:39.growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and
:26:40. > :26:44.living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next
:26:45. > :26:47.year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to
:26:48. > :26:50.rise with that amount of growth What do you do then? We have not
:26:51. > :26:54.switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way
:26:55. > :26:58.along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and
:26:59. > :27:03.we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic
:27:04. > :27:07.policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns
:27:08. > :27:11.people have and recognise that they are struggling with the
:27:12. > :27:15.cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of
:27:16. > :27:21.living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I
:27:22. > :27:25.hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,
:27:26. > :27:28.for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are
:27:29. > :27:33.worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader
:27:34. > :27:35.measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that
:27:36. > :27:41.decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the
:27:42. > :27:47.country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living
:27:48. > :27:51.standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line
:27:52. > :27:54.There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National
:27:55. > :28:00.Health Service, about the problems that there is in A, which caused
:28:01. > :28:05.-- are caused by the organisation. I can put forward other lines. All
:28:06. > :28:11.right. Let me ask you one other question If no newspapers have
:28:12. > :28:14.signed up to the Government-backed Labour-backed Royal Charter on press
:28:15. > :28:20.regular lace by 2015 and it looks like the way things are going none
:28:21. > :28:23.will have, if you are in power, will a Labour Government legislate to
:28:24. > :28:27.make them? They don't have to sign up to the Royal Charter, that's not
:28:28. > :28:30.the system. What the Royal Charter does is create a recogniser and
:28:31. > :28:34.basically says it's for the newspapers to set up their own
:28:35. > :28:39.regulator. They are doing that. My question is... Let me finish. If
:28:40. > :28:43.they decide to have nothing to do with the Royal Charter that was
:28:44. > :28:46.decided in Miliband's office in the wee small hours, will you pass
:28:47. > :28:50.legislation to make them? The newspapers are currently setting up
:28:51. > :28:55.what they call... I know that, Harriet Harman. Just let me finish.
:28:56. > :28:59.OK. Because the newspapers are setting up the independent Press
:29:00. > :29:03.Standards Organisation. Right. If it is independent, as they say it is,
:29:04. > :29:07.then the recogniser will simply say, we recognise that this is
:29:08. > :29:11.independent and the whole point is that, in the past when there's been
:29:12. > :29:14.skaen deals a tend press have really turned people's lives upside down
:29:15. > :29:19.and the press have said OK we'll sort things out, leave it to us
:29:20. > :29:23.then they have sorted things out but a few years later they have slipped
:29:24. > :29:27.back, all this recogniser will do is check it once every three years and
:29:28. > :29:30.say yes, you have got an independent system and it's remained independent
:29:31. > :29:34.and therefore that is the guarantee things won't slip back. Very
:29:35. > :29:39.interesting. Thank you for that That's really interesting that if
:29:40. > :29:44.they get their act right, you won't force the alternative on them. We
:29:45. > :29:49.want the system as set forward by Leveson which is not statute and
:29:50. > :29:53.direct regulation. I want to stick with the press because I want to
:29:54. > :29:58.ask, is this a British institution or an out-of-date image for a by
:29:59. > :30:03.gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been dividing the nation since it first
:30:04. > :30:08.appeared way back in 1970. That s 43 years ago. Harriet Harman's called
:30:09. > :30:25.for it to be removed, so we sent Adam out to ask whether the topless
:30:26. > :30:37.photographs should stay or go. We have asked people if page three
:30:38. > :30:47.should stay or go. Page three. What do you think? Nothing wrong with it
:30:48. > :30:58.at all. I think it is cheap and exploits women. It is a family
:30:59. > :31:09.newspaper. Should it stay or go Go. I will look like the bad guy. It
:31:10. > :31:18.should go. You have changed your mind. It is free choice. Girls do
:31:19. > :31:32.not have to be photographed. Old men get the paper just for that. Know
:31:33. > :31:36.when your age does that? Not really. Dashes-macro know what your age
:31:37. > :31:47.Page three girls, should they stay or go? I am not bothered. There are
:31:48. > :31:50.other ways of getting noticed. Page three of the Sun newspaper every
:31:51. > :32:00.day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40
:32:01. > :32:07.years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been
:32:08. > :32:12.long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to
:32:13. > :32:18.encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my
:32:19. > :32:26.children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see
:32:27. > :32:31.the day when they get rid of it Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can
:32:32. > :32:44.turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I
:32:45. > :32:50.think the council should do something about their car parks
:32:51. > :32:59.Mother nature, the human body. It should stay. Is some people like it,
:33:00. > :33:06.that is fine. I have nothing against it. You know what has surprised me,
:33:07. > :33:12.lots of women saying it should stay. Maybe they are seeing it as
:33:13. > :33:21.empowering. As I have a baby daughter in there, I am happy to see
:33:22. > :33:30.it go. Imagine my grandad opening up his paper and they're being my bats!
:33:31. > :33:38.It should go. There is nothing wrong with it. He wants it to go. What
:33:39. > :33:46.about people who think that page three should be banned? Idiots. Do
:33:47. > :33:55.you know a girl called Lacey, aged 22, from Bedford? Good luck to her.
:33:56. > :34:02.I do not know her as a person that I have heard she is nice. What about
:34:03. > :34:11.her decision to be on page three? Nothing to lose. Do you think she
:34:12. > :34:17.has made Bedford proud? That is not hard. What have we learned? More
:34:18. > :34:27.people want page three to stay down for it to go. Most people do not
:34:28. > :34:33.really seem to care, do they? You have heard a range of views. I am
:34:34. > :34:39.not arguing it should be banned I have not argued for it to be banned
:34:40. > :34:51.but I have disapproved of it since the 1970s. You do not think it
:34:52. > :34:56.should be banned? I do not think there should be dictating content
:34:57. > :35:00.but I do think, if you arrive from outer space in this country in
:35:01. > :35:05.21st-century Britain, and asked yourself what was the role of women
:35:06. > :35:09.in society... To stand in their knickers and nothing else, I think
:35:10. > :35:20.women have more to aspire to than to be able to take their clothes off in
:35:21. > :35:24.public. The sun no longer has the circulation, or the political
:35:25. > :35:28.importance, that it had in the 980s when page three was at its height.
:35:29. > :35:35.Aren't people just voting with their feet anyway? The market is sorting
:35:36. > :35:41.this out. Half the number of people buy it now than they did 20 years
:35:42. > :35:46.ago. Until the time the sun does not have page three any more, I am
:35:47. > :35:53.entitled to my view that it is outdated and wrong. I am happy to
:35:54. > :36:03.establish that you do not want to ban it. What should happen? Should
:36:04. > :36:08.people boycott the paper? I have never implied or said it should be
:36:09. > :36:15.banned. I have always been forthright. Should people boycott
:36:16. > :36:21.the paper? I have not called for a boycott. The women's movement, of
:36:22. > :36:25.which I am part, and this is not about politicians censoring the
:36:26. > :36:31.press. I am part of the movement which says women can do better than
:36:32. > :36:38.taking off their clothes and being in their knickers in the newspapers.
:36:39. > :36:45.Why don't you do something about it? I am doing something about it by
:36:46. > :36:50.saying it is outdated. I am not doing anything more about it. Should
:36:51. > :36:56.people buy the paper as long as there is a page three? Would you
:36:57. > :37:03.like to say to viewers, as long as page three is in the sand, you
:37:04. > :37:09.should not buy it? Dashes-macro be Son. I am saying, wake up to what
:37:10. > :37:13.the role of women in society should be, which is more than page three.
:37:14. > :37:19.If they changed it in Australia which is where Rupert Murdoch came
:37:20. > :37:24.from, why can they not change it in this country? You're watching the
:37:25. > :37:25.Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes... I'll be talking
:37:26. > :37:34.to man Here in the east, one year on. Our
:37:35. > :37:35.Police and Crime Commissioners, they may I Hello
:37:36. > :37:40.Police and Crime Commissioners, they Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics
:37:41. > :37:44.East. I'm Etholle George. Later in the programme: The Police and Crime
:37:45. > :37:46.Commissioners at the head of our police forces.
:37:47. > :37:49.They were supposed to provide answers but, on the first
:37:50. > :37:54.anniversary of the new role, questions are being raised over
:37:55. > :37:59.their performance. Police and Crime Commissioners have
:38:00. > :38:04.been something of a disappointment. The majority of them have not made
:38:05. > :38:06.an impact or acted to help the role allows.
:38:07. > :38:09.Life in the country isn't all it's cracked up to be, as communities
:38:10. > :38:16.suffer through unfair funding. They always assume that if you live
:38:17. > :38:19.in the country that you are rich. It could not be further from the truth.
:38:20. > :38:27.And the Chancellor visits Norwich where he announces plans to cut
:38:28. > :38:30.train times to London. But first, let's meet our guests.
:38:31. > :38:33.Richard Howitt, Labour's member of the European Parliament for the East
:38:34. > :38:36.and Kevin Bentley, the Deputy Leader of Essex County Council and a
:38:37. > :38:40.Colchester councillor. Which is where we start this week, with the
:38:41. > :38:42.news that police have been called in to investigate Colchester Hospital,
:38:43. > :38:53.after claims that staff were bullied into changing the data of waiting
:38:54. > :38:56.times for cancer treatment. Health officials have described the
:38:57. > :38:59.report by the Care Quality Commission as shocking. Inspectors
:39:00. > :39:01.found a number of cancer patients suffered "undue delays" to their
:39:02. > :39:04.treatment, there was evidence some records had been altered to meet
:39:05. > :39:07.national targets and 22 patients were at risk of receiving unsafe
:39:08. > :39:10.care. The Chief Inspector of Hospitals has recommended the Trust
:39:11. > :39:14.be put into special measures. Now the hospital has promised to set up
:39:15. > :39:17.a full external investigation and health bosses say waiting lists for
:39:18. > :39:29.cancer patients are to be checked on a weekly basis.
:39:30. > :39:34.If that is what is required, that is what is required. I am devastated at
:39:35. > :39:41.what we have been told has happened. It is very serious. The
:39:42. > :39:46.police are involved. What I want to ensure is that the thousands of
:39:47. > :39:50.people who use Colchester Hospital every week continue to do so in
:39:51. > :39:58.confidence that everything is OK, and also to try and lift the morale
:39:59. > :40:04.of the 4000 staff who must have been hit by what is going on. There is no
:40:05. > :40:08.defence whatsoever, so we are hearing about elements within the
:40:09. > :40:13.cancer treatment area of the hospital. Let us not blame the whole
:40:14. > :40:18.hospital with what we are hearing about rogue activity.
:40:19. > :40:23.As a Colchester counsellor, how worried are you?
:40:24. > :40:28.I know the hospital well, I have family and friends who use the
:40:29. > :40:32.hospital. It is dreadful news. It is about focusing on the patients and
:40:33. > :40:39.their families and making sure there is confidence in the services. And
:40:40. > :40:43.for the staff. The hospital is not all that. But the investigation is
:40:44. > :40:47.going on and we must get answers. It is labour that are ordering the
:40:48. > :40:53.targets, is it hitting the targets that are the cause of the problems?
:40:54. > :40:57.22 people and their families who are suffering, it is very important that
:40:58. > :41:05.they get the support that they need. It is devastating, and we should not
:41:06. > :41:13.make any party political point about that. On the targets, there is a
:41:14. > :41:19.point about is this mismanagement? Or was it a question that the
:41:20. > :41:23.problems that we have in the NHS? This is about bullying, which is
:41:24. > :41:26.always unacceptable in any circumstance. It is European law
:41:27. > :41:32.that protects people against victimisation and harassment and
:41:33. > :41:36.helps protect the whistle`blowers. How concerned are you that it was a
:41:37. > :41:44.whistle`blower who brought this to our attention?
:41:45. > :41:48.It is good that people can do that. But we must be part of the answer as
:41:49. > :41:52.well. It is clear what has happened. I am glad someone has come forward
:41:53. > :41:58.and expose this. We must stop it from happening again.
:41:59. > :42:01.This time last year, the first elections for Police and Crime
:42:02. > :42:03.Commissioners were held. Billed as "the most significant democratic
:42:04. > :42:07.reform of policing in our lifetime" they were supposed to usher in a new
:42:08. > :42:11.era in policing. We were told that the public would now know who is
:42:12. > :42:15.leading the fight against crime in their community ` but do they? One
:42:16. > :42:16.year on, Sally Chidzoy looks at whether the PCCs have fulfilled
:42:17. > :42:21.their promise. It was all smiles a year ago when
:42:22. > :42:24.Police and Crime Commissioners were elected, but most of the voters were
:42:25. > :42:28.uninspired and did not go to the ballot box.
:42:29. > :42:32.Police and Crime Commissioners have been something of a disappointment.
:42:33. > :42:36.The vast majority of them have not make the sort of impact that would
:42:37. > :42:40.be nice to see. They have not acted to what the role allows. There have
:42:41. > :42:44.been problems about Police and Crime Commissioners and how they have
:42:45. > :42:50.dealt with themselves. This man has had to deal with his own problem,
:42:51. > :42:54.after questions about his own mileage expenses.
:42:55. > :43:00.It is now being announced that he will have to repay money that he was
:43:01. > :43:08.paid to drive between his home and his office. He received ?43 for each
:43:09. > :43:13.trip. Tax rules do not allow staff to claim for such expenses. He says
:43:14. > :43:17.that he thought that his claims were legitimate.
:43:18. > :43:23.I am very happy with what I do. My job is to meet organisations
:43:24. > :43:30.wherever they are in the county. His home is a distance away from his
:43:31. > :43:38.office. He said that he made it clear from the start that his
:43:39. > :43:42.personal office would be his home. My job is to move around the whole
:43:43. > :43:48.county. You saying to me that I must go here, before I go anywhere else?
:43:49. > :43:55.His expenses showed that, in nine months, he claimed this amount of
:43:56. > :44:05.mileage. However, much of this was from his Home Office. Claims for
:44:06. > :44:13.those trip is accounted for 61% of his mileage expenses.
:44:14. > :44:18.Mr Bett says that he thought that the claims were above board, but he
:44:19. > :44:23.will not claim, because he does not want to ruin the image of Police and
:44:24. > :44:30.Crime Commissioners. It will not do much for their image.
:44:31. > :44:39.It raises questions. We can talk about the legalities, but even if it
:44:40. > :44:43.were to be completely OK, I am very surprised that a senior politician
:44:44. > :44:49.would seek to do this. None of the Eastern region's Police and Crime
:44:50. > :44:52.Commissioners claim expenses from travelling from their homes to that
:44:53. > :45:01.officers. If you have to permanent places of
:45:02. > :45:10.work, the cost of travelling between the two are not tax liable.
:45:11. > :45:14.Mr Betts said that if there were any questions to answer, he would be
:45:15. > :45:19.happy to go before the appropriate authorities. He says he does not
:45:20. > :45:25.believe that anything was wrong. He says that the hard work that he does
:45:26. > :45:31.with getting public bodies to work together should be focused on.
:45:32. > :45:34.All Police and Crime Commissioners are trying to make their mark
:45:35. > :45:41.fighting crime and raising their own profile. In Hertfordshire, it David
:45:42. > :45:50.is shown this new remote courtroom. Next, a visit to a custody suite
:45:51. > :45:55.before a radio interview. Mr Lloyd suggested that people locked up in
:45:56. > :46:00.police cells should pay for their stay. He supports a new idea about
:46:01. > :46:07.police cells for drunks. This is a development of it.
:46:08. > :46:12.Have you given up on your individual policy of police cells like hotels?
:46:13. > :46:14.I don't think it is a question of switching.
:46:15. > :46:20.I think this is exactly what I was talking about.
:46:21. > :46:24.PCCs are meant to be public figures, but everyone in this area
:46:25. > :46:29.did not know David Lloyd and what he did.
:46:30. > :46:37.What is your name of your PCC? I don't know. I think it is a waste of
:46:38. > :46:41.money. I did not know there was one. This former police constable is that
:46:42. > :46:46.the Police and Crime Commissioners system is not working.
:46:47. > :46:51.We have a general election soon. I am sure the parties will be looking
:46:52. > :46:55.at the model. I cannot think that the model will survive in its
:46:56. > :47:02.existing form without a very considerable lift in the level of
:47:03. > :47:07.accountability to PCCs to the crime panel, because that has not worked.
:47:08. > :47:10.I think there is a case to be made about saying that change should
:47:11. > :47:17.happen. PCCs were meant to strengthen police
:47:18. > :47:21.crime fighting, but it has been a difficult first year. If they cannot
:47:22. > :47:27.up their game, they may be consigned to history.
:47:28. > :47:29.The Home Office told us: Expenses should only be claimed by Police and
:47:30. > :47:32.Crime Commissioners to reimburse costs incurred while undertaking
:47:33. > :47:36.their duties, not for non`work related mileage.
:47:37. > :47:39.Well, joining us from London, Justice Minister and, of course, MP
:47:40. > :47:44.for North West Cambridgeshire, Shailesh Vara.
:47:45. > :47:47.We heard in the film there's been more publicity about problems with
:47:48. > :47:49.the PCC's than their achievements, now it seems there's another one in
:47:50. > :47:54.Norfolk. Yes, it is important to recognise
:47:55. > :47:59.that this is a public appointments funded by the taxpayer. In the
:48:00. > :48:03.21st`century, we have openness and transparency and the public should
:48:04. > :48:08.see how their money is spent. It is important that, ultimately, each
:48:09. > :48:16.Police and Crime Commissioners will have to be accountable to the public
:48:17. > :48:20.when the next election comes. Let me put it to you, Police and
:48:21. > :48:23.Crime Commissioners are a mistake, they are expensive and no one knows
:48:24. > :48:28.who they are? I do not think it was a mistake. I
:48:29. > :48:33.think it is an extraordinary movement that we have taken, in the
:48:34. > :48:42.sense that we now have people who are accountable to elected people.
:48:43. > :48:47.They are elected by the public and can be held to account.
:48:48. > :48:50.They are elected by very few people. Even the Home Secretary says that
:48:51. > :48:55.have been errors of judgement and there is room for improvement.
:48:56. > :49:01.I do not deny that they were elected by a small amount of people. We need
:49:02. > :49:04.to address this issue. The concept of having an elected commissioner is
:49:05. > :49:08.a good one, but we need to work on the fact that more people get to
:49:09. > :49:14.know about them and that in the next election there is a greater movement
:49:15. > :49:21.of democracy. We need to do more that `` to make sure that the public
:49:22. > :49:29.are aware of who the commissions are. I know that in Cambridgeshire,
:49:30. > :49:33.the PCC is very active, going out to church congregations and harassers.
:49:34. > :49:43.I am sure that people all across the East are very active, but they are
:49:44. > :49:50.not always aware who they are? `` congregations and parishes.
:49:51. > :49:54.It is a question of the commissioners making sure that they
:49:55. > :50:00.are getting the right publicity, making use of the Internet as well
:50:01. > :50:07.as the written press. There are issues at the moment, but I don't
:50:08. > :50:12.think it is a question of whether or not it is a good concept. It is a
:50:13. > :50:18.good concept. We need to work at it. You have said that it there is a
:50:19. > :50:22.good concept. What about accountability? What about the
:50:23. > :50:25.panels that are meant to be looking at the work of the Police and Crime
:50:26. > :50:32.Commissioners? To the extent that there are teasing
:50:33. > :50:38.problems, they need to be addressed. You are talking about early problems
:50:39. > :50:41.12 months into the role. It is not right to talk about it 12 months
:50:42. > :50:45.in? We are talking about a totally new
:50:46. > :50:51.concept. Even general elections, which have been going on for many
:50:52. > :50:55.years, even they only attract 70% of support. Local elections, which have
:50:56. > :51:01.been going on for many years, they can have a turnout of 15%. I did
:51:02. > :51:04.think we should be dismissing this concept because the public don't
:51:05. > :51:08.know about it. We must also make sure that the public gets to know
:51:09. > :51:16.about it. I accept that we need to work on that.
:51:17. > :51:19.Richard, do you think we will be collecting another set of Police and
:51:20. > :51:24.Crime Commissioners next time? I don't know. I know that this is a
:51:25. > :51:29.conservative invention. With the same money that was spent on the
:51:30. > :51:36.elections, we could have 3000 extra lease constables on our streets.
:51:37. > :51:43.There have been 200 public events in Cambridgeshire in the first year,
:51:44. > :51:55.and a new system of tagging that has really `` reduced offending rates.
:51:56. > :51:57.But these reports show how little many of the Police and Crime
:51:58. > :52:00.Commissioners have been travelling around.
:52:01. > :52:08.We need to concentrate on the general issues. The Home Secretary
:52:09. > :52:13.talked about mistakes, it is hardly an endorsement?
:52:14. > :52:18.I think that anything that involves voting for people is a good idea. It
:52:19. > :52:24.is important that people vote for who decides on the budget for the
:52:25. > :52:32.police. In Essex, we have a great PCC. He engages with the public. I
:52:33. > :52:37.cannot say that all the people in Essex know him, but he is doing the
:52:38. > :52:42.best he can to beach them. What about the idea that it is a
:52:43. > :52:53.good idea to bring in a person who represents the public?
:52:54. > :52:58.We recruit more special constables. He and his deputies, the cost of his
:52:59. > :53:03.work is less than the cost of the old police authority. Where we have
:53:04. > :53:07.won the elections, I think people will see that we are delivering.
:53:08. > :53:17.Kevin, what about the problem that hardly anyone, and there have been
:53:18. > :53:24.surveys, knows who their PCC is? That is because it is new. We must
:53:25. > :53:32.all introduce this to people. It is important the work that is being
:53:33. > :53:36.done by the PCC in Essex. It is power for the people. It is
:53:37. > :53:42.important. I would say to anyone watching this, please getting
:53:43. > :53:52.gauged, please send e`mails to your Police Commissioner.
:53:53. > :53:58.There are Police and Crime Commissioners who want to have
:53:59. > :54:06.sponsored uniforms and police cars. But that is up to the public to vote
:54:07. > :54:10.for the right people. You have a choice in the election.
:54:11. > :54:15.What about the question of scrutiny. You saw it in the film there. I
:54:16. > :54:21.think the old police authorities played a role.
:54:22. > :54:27.As they counsellor, I hope you would see the merits of that.
:54:28. > :54:35.This is a direct election in which people can vote in.
:54:36. > :54:45.But accountability, for any of us, is extremely important and we should
:54:46. > :54:48.seek to make the system work. Now, town versus country. If you've
:54:49. > :54:51.always fancied a country cottage with roses round the door, you might
:54:52. > :54:54.want to think again, because rural folk are missing out.
:54:55. > :54:57.People living in the countryside get 50% less public funding per head of
:54:58. > :54:59.population than those who live in urban areas.
:55:00. > :55:02.Several government MPs from the region have presented petitions in
:55:03. > :55:04.Parliament, supporting the campaign to secure more funding for rural
:55:05. > :55:07.areas. Life in the country may look
:55:08. > :55:09.idyllic, but in Ashill in Mid Norfolk 400 people signed a
:55:10. > :55:12.petition, complaining that successive governments have failed
:55:13. > :55:20.to recognise the increased costs of living in the country.
:55:21. > :55:25.If we didn't come here three times a week, it would be very lonely.
:55:26. > :55:31.They always assumed that if you live in the country you are rich. That
:55:32. > :55:38.you have a Land Rover. They could not be further from the truth. It
:55:39. > :55:43.just doesn't happen. Rural MPs have had enough about
:55:44. > :55:48.their areas being discriminated against. It has gone on for years.
:55:49. > :55:52.This difficult funding situation that we face as a country has
:55:53. > :55:56.highlighted it. Kevin, this has been going on for
:55:57. > :56:03.too long, hasn't it? I represents a very rural division
:56:04. > :56:11.in Essex County Council. I comes a that rural deprivation is not all
:56:12. > :56:17.about these issues, we only have one or two buses a day. I believe that
:56:18. > :56:21.government should give more of their funding down to the local people and
:56:22. > :56:25.the elected councillors so that we can sort out these issues. What
:56:26. > :56:30.about the rest of Europe? Is there a similar situation? I
:56:31. > :56:39.think there is. We should be fighting for our rural
:56:40. > :56:45.areas. We'll be fighting in every part of the East of England in the
:56:46. > :56:50.next general election, and the buses are a big issue. 5000 people are
:56:51. > :56:55.living in rural areas who are dependent on food banks in Norfolk.
:56:56. > :56:59.These are big issues. What about this issue of perception, people
:57:00. > :57:08.being rich? It does not elicit sympathy.
:57:09. > :57:15.It is right, it is not about the countryside being rich. I represents
:57:16. > :57:19.people of all different incomes. It is important that they get a fair
:57:20. > :57:26.representation, as well as everyone else. In our area, much of our money
:57:27. > :57:35.goes to metropolitan areas. What'll happen?
:57:36. > :57:42.People like myself in the council, we are fighting more with the
:57:43. > :57:47.government is to get more money. Labour is seen as a metropolitan
:57:48. > :57:59.party, is that not the case? No. The group that I work for help
:58:00. > :58:07.to bring opportunities and work learning for helping young people
:58:08. > :58:15.who are outside the bus routes. But there is hypocrisy, where people are
:58:16. > :58:18.saying that they do not have money 40 Ching in rural areas, but it is
:58:19. > :58:24.their government who is delivering it.
:58:25. > :58:28.Well, the man in control of the government purse strings visited the
:58:29. > :58:30.region this week and he wasn't the only member of the Cabinet. Here's
:58:31. > :58:32.Deborah McGurran's 60 second round`up.
:58:33. > :58:36.The biggest private contract ever handed out in the NHS ` for ?800
:58:37. > :58:39.million worth of elderly care ` in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough
:58:40. > :58:42.moved a step closer this week. While the Peterborough MP raised in
:58:43. > :58:45.parliament the City Council's plan for what could be the biggest solar
:58:46. > :58:54.farm in Europe, on 900 acres of farmland.
:58:55. > :58:57.There is a chance that this project could be a disaster and make a loss,
:58:58. > :59:00.bankrupted the city. George Osborne visited businesses in
:59:01. > :59:04.Suffolk and Norfolk and announced a goal for the next franchise holder
:59:05. > :59:13.to reduce London journeys to an hour and a half.
:59:14. > :59:18.We are setting up a Basque force, but I am determined to deliver this.
:59:19. > :59:21.`` eight ask force. While Business Secretary Vince Cable
:59:22. > :59:23.was put through his paces at Silverstone in Northamptonshire.
:59:24. > :59:27.And bottoms up for Shailesh Vara, who showed the Secretary of State a
:59:28. > :59:38.display of the best food Cambridgeshire has to offer.
:59:39. > :59:46.That is a good title. What is not to like about that?
:59:47. > :59:51.The fact that there is no money. I wore Parliamentary representative
:59:52. > :59:56.said it was hot air. The Transport Secretary said that if only more
:59:57. > :59:59.money could come back to the tax payer.
:00:00. > :00:05.What about that? It could take 14 years for anything to happen?
:00:06. > :00:12.Thank goodness for MPs in the region who have fought very hard to get
:00:13. > :00:17.that into the region. The Chancellor understands that it is an important
:00:18. > :00:21.railway line. We need the funding to go in there. It is now on the table.
:00:22. > :00:26.Thank you both very much. That's all for now. You can keep in
:00:27. > :00:28.touch via our website, where you will also find links to Deborah
:00:29. > :00:30.McGurran's blog. We're back at the usual time of 11am
:00:31. > :00:32.next week, when we'll We're back at the usual time of 11am
:00:33. > :00:42.cyclists. Back to you, Andrew. We learned this week that no more
:00:43. > :00:46.warships will be built at Portsmouth, the home of the Royal
:00:47. > :00:49.Navy since the days of the Mary Rose and Francis Drake. But has the city
:00:50. > :00:52.been sacrificed to save jobs on the Clyde in Scotland? Is England the
:00:53. > :00:57.loser in an effort to keep the United Kingdom intact? Let's speak
:00:58. > :01:08.to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign for an English Parliament. Is
:01:09. > :01:08.England the loser in this attempt to keep the
:01:09. > :01:17.doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English
:01:18. > :01:22.Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to
:01:23. > :01:28.stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best
:01:29. > :01:32.outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?
:01:33. > :01:35.We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is
:01:36. > :01:41.an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the
:01:42. > :01:46.people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for
:01:47. > :01:53.independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be
:01:54. > :02:00.dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without
:02:01. > :02:05.true representation. The union continues but it continues without
:02:06. > :02:10.Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional
:02:11. > :02:15.position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional
:02:16. > :02:21.position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We
:02:22. > :02:26.want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained
:02:27. > :02:31.or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.
:02:32. > :02:35.Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If
:02:36. > :02:44.that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,
:02:45. > :02:49.it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the
:02:50. > :02:53.union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by
:02:54. > :02:58.England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,
:02:59. > :03:05.wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny
:03:06. > :03:10.list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to
:03:11. > :03:14.the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very
:03:15. > :03:19.concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched
:03:20. > :03:24.British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable
:03:25. > :03:29.situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with
:03:30. > :03:32.Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about
:03:33. > :03:36.trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile
:03:37. > :03:42.situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation
:03:43. > :03:46.separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and
:03:47. > :03:52.Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I
:03:53. > :03:58.want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were
:03:59. > :04:06.sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to
:04:07. > :04:15.remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.
:04:16. > :04:20.Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become
:04:21. > :04:25.a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England
:04:26. > :04:29.to have their representation - representation that looks at
:04:30. > :04:33.policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern
:04:34. > :04:37.Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way
:04:38. > :04:49.forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system
:04:50. > :04:57.might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you
:04:58. > :05:03.want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is
:05:04. > :05:09.implement the process is to get their representation for England. I
:05:10. > :05:14.would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way
:05:15. > :05:19.to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.
:05:20. > :05:22.Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the
:05:23. > :05:28.British government is trying desperately to save the union by
:05:29. > :05:33.giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this
:05:34. > :05:38.business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been
:05:39. > :05:41.pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the
:05:42. > :05:47.union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a
:05:48. > :05:51.disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a
:05:52. > :05:55.minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow
:05:56. > :06:00.its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to
:06:01. > :06:05.admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be
:06:06. > :06:09.dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a
:06:10. > :06:14.Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a
:06:15. > :06:20.killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in
:06:21. > :06:25.this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.
:06:26. > :06:30.And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial
:06:31. > :06:35.area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has
:06:36. > :06:39.backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in
:06:40. > :06:43.Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English
:06:44. > :06:48.nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist
:06:49. > :06:52.in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed
:06:53. > :06:55.to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to
:06:56. > :07:01.win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to
:07:02. > :07:10.imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more
:07:11. > :07:15.autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David
:07:16. > :07:19.Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any
:07:20. > :07:26.vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,
:07:27. > :07:30.you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is
:07:31. > :07:33.economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the
:07:34. > :07:37.United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this
:07:38. > :07:41.government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of
:07:42. > :07:45.being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case
:07:46. > :07:52.of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave
:07:53. > :07:55.That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you
:07:56. > :07:59.like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you
:08:00. > :08:02.happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last
:08:03. > :08:05.week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He
:08:06. > :08:09.said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,
:08:10. > :08:13.what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll
:08:14. > :08:21.hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I
:08:22. > :08:26.have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?
:08:27. > :08:33.Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used
:08:34. > :08:40.drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years
:08:41. > :08:46.ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few
:08:47. > :08:52.times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I
:08:53. > :09:17.tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around
:09:18. > :09:25.you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that
:09:26. > :09:30.get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession
:09:31. > :09:37.by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once
:09:38. > :09:43.smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that
:09:44. > :09:47.she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about
:09:48. > :09:53.them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not
:09:54. > :10:04.deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant
:10:05. > :10:09.to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat
:10:10. > :10:15.his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a
:10:16. > :10:18.generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went
:10:19. > :10:22.through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables
:10:23. > :10:28.and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely
:10:29. > :10:36.honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy
:10:37. > :10:41.is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was
:10:42. > :10:45.saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet
:10:46. > :10:50.Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,
:10:51. > :10:58.you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you
:10:59. > :11:00.cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing
:11:01. > :11:05.and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is
:11:06. > :11:10.enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair
:11:11. > :11:15.or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be
:11:16. > :11:20.mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There
:11:21. > :11:26.was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He
:11:27. > :11:33.was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the
:11:34. > :11:38.line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.
:11:39. > :11:42.Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will
:11:43. > :11:46.surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes
:11:47. > :11:51.on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those
:11:52. > :11:56.who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.
:11:57. > :12:04.The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,
:12:05. > :12:09.early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages
:12:10. > :12:14.will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not
:12:15. > :12:26.be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this
:12:27. > :12:35.trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very
:12:36. > :12:39.careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a
:12:40. > :12:43.certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled
:12:44. > :12:47.before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory
:12:48. > :12:51.strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement
:12:52. > :13:01.or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.
:13:02. > :13:05.-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions
:13:06. > :13:12.about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.
:13:13. > :13:16.They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be
:13:17. > :13:21.surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it
:13:22. > :13:27.is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be
:13:28. > :13:30.cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two
:13:31. > :13:33.at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.
:13:34. > :13:44.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.