:00:36. > :00:45.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne
:00:46. > :00:48.announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk
:00:49. > :00:52.to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini
:00:53. > :00:56.budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first
:00:57. > :01:01.time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it
:01:02. > :01:10.down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the
:01:11. > :01:14.Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will
:01:15. > :01:18.be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says
:01:19. > :01:27.inequality and greed are essential to spur economic
:01:28. > :01:30.Suffolk MP Tim Yeo is docked by his local party.
:01:31. > :01:33.Suffolk MP Tim Yeo is docked by his capital is now a crisis. Another
:01:34. > :01:44.week, another strategy? Can this one deliver?
:01:45. > :01:47.And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the
:01:48. > :01:54.packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the
:01:55. > :01:57.bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be
:01:58. > :02:06.tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after
:02:07. > :02:09.weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the
:02:10. > :02:12.Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with
:02:13. > :02:14.its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained
:02:15. > :02:18.how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.
:02:19. > :02:22.What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by
:02:23. > :02:27.government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the
:02:28. > :02:33.average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas
:02:34. > :02:37.bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that
:02:38. > :02:40.government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families
:02:41. > :02:45.incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way
:02:46. > :02:48.that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing
:02:49. > :02:54.with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping
:02:55. > :03:00.low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing
:03:01. > :03:04.the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband
:03:05. > :03:07.freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and
:03:08. > :03:13.older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit
:03:14. > :03:18.of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with
:03:19. > :03:23.the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not
:03:24. > :03:27.very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced
:03:28. > :03:34.overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to
:03:35. > :03:40.it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are
:03:41. > :03:46.explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does
:03:47. > :03:50.not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what
:03:51. > :03:53.agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would
:03:54. > :03:59.fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,
:04:00. > :04:03.I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests
:04:04. > :04:10.he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies
:04:11. > :04:14.have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced
:04:15. > :04:18.this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for
:04:19. > :04:23.ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an
:04:24. > :04:28.incentive to go along with this don't they? My worry is that I am
:04:29. > :04:35.not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people
:04:36. > :04:40.might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting
:04:41. > :04:45.thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by
:04:46. > :04:51.Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your
:04:52. > :04:54.bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall
:04:55. > :04:59.through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they
:05:00. > :05:06.themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the
:05:07. > :05:11.Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still
:05:12. > :05:15.very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance
:05:16. > :05:19.announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze
:05:20. > :05:23.prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen
:05:24. > :05:28.them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at
:05:29. > :05:33.their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a
:05:34. > :05:40.reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 0
:05:41. > :05:48.will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this
:05:49. > :05:51.time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George
:05:52. > :05:55.Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that 50
:05:56. > :06:00.has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the
:06:01. > :06:05.government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political
:06:06. > :06:09.bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along
:06:10. > :06:14.with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.
:06:15. > :06:17.Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the
:06:18. > :06:23.Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.
:06:24. > :06:31.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the
:06:32. > :06:34.coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or
:06:35. > :06:40.is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with
:06:41. > :06:46.the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where
:06:47. > :06:51.the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the
:06:52. > :06:54.homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing
:06:55. > :06:58.in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,
:06:59. > :07:03.but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.
:07:04. > :07:07.You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly
:07:08. > :07:13.down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are
:07:14. > :07:18.shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot
:07:19. > :07:23.ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older
:07:24. > :07:27.people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and
:07:28. > :07:33.raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with
:07:34. > :07:38.that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the
:07:39. > :07:41.eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation
:07:42. > :07:45.of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four
:07:46. > :07:51.years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost
:07:52. > :07:57.10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,
:07:58. > :08:03.how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.
:08:04. > :08:07.The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My
:08:08. > :08:15.take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about
:08:16. > :08:19.green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort
:08:20. > :08:25.of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income
:08:26. > :08:33.families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't
:08:34. > :08:40.-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall
:08:41. > :08:45.we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know
:08:46. > :08:52.that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be
:08:53. > :08:55.doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have
:08:56. > :09:09.jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my
:09:10. > :09:12.point quite well. David Cameron s panicked response to this over the
:09:13. > :09:18.last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to
:09:19. > :09:22.make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this
:09:23. > :09:25.government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are
:09:26. > :09:33.making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to
:09:34. > :09:38.you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.
:09:39. > :09:41.But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the
:09:42. > :09:45.threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account
:09:46. > :09:49.on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in
:09:50. > :09:57.coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not
:09:58. > :10:01.reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest
:10:02. > :10:06.income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be
:10:07. > :10:12.potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be
:10:13. > :10:16.that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going
:10:17. > :10:22.to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.
:10:23. > :10:32.We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the
:10:33. > :10:37.adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in
:10:38. > :10:42.favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest
:10:43. > :10:46.answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come
:10:47. > :10:55.round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if
:10:56. > :10:59.Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you
:11:00. > :11:04.would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?
:11:05. > :11:09.If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British
:11:10. > :11:16.people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,
:11:17. > :11:19.which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for
:11:20. > :11:24.those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might
:11:25. > :11:32.reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.
:11:33. > :11:39.Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,
:11:40. > :11:43.correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely
:11:44. > :11:49.fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want
:11:50. > :11:53.to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my
:11:54. > :11:58.view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour
:11:59. > :12:05.because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while
:12:06. > :12:08.they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy
:12:09. > :12:20.up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against
:12:21. > :12:26.it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference
:12:27. > :12:37.Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. - on
:12:38. > :12:43.the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income
:12:44. > :12:48.tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view
:12:49. > :12:55.that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are
:12:56. > :13:00.temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that
:13:01. > :13:05.was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return
:13:06. > :13:09.for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out
:13:10. > :13:16.of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour
:13:17. > :13:20.of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds
:13:21. > :13:25.open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is
:13:26. > :13:31.whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through
:13:32. > :13:42.other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair
:13:43. > :13:47.share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room
:13:48. > :13:51.subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with
:13:52. > :13:57.the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have
:13:58. > :14:02.about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the
:14:03. > :14:10.next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,
:14:11. > :14:16.but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for
:14:17. > :14:19.your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the
:14:20. > :14:25.prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always
:14:26. > :14:29.follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal
:14:30. > :14:34.Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.
:14:35. > :14:39.Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of
:14:40. > :14:44.the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up
:14:45. > :14:49.with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as
:14:50. > :14:53.you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and
:14:54. > :14:57.agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you
:14:58. > :15:02.disagree with. It is what grown ups do. A lot of people in your party
:15:03. > :15:08.think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a
:15:09. > :15:15.post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant
:15:16. > :15:28.manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the
:15:29. > :15:34.sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I
:15:35. > :15:37.see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I
:15:38. > :15:48.have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and
:15:49. > :15:53.large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the
:15:54. > :15:57.president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside
:15:58. > :16:04.the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for
:16:05. > :16:07.joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens
:16:08. > :16:10.of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",
:16:11. > :16:14.and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,
:16:15. > :16:17.immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released
:16:18. > :16:20.earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the
:16:21. > :16:24.first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are
:16:25. > :16:28.talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come
:16:29. > :16:32.into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins
:16:33. > :16:38.and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants
:16:39. > :16:43.the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and
:16:44. > :16:47.Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to
:16:48. > :16:56.apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted
:16:57. > :16:57.apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the
:16:58. > :17:02.2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England
:17:03. > :17:06.and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 004.
:17:07. > :17:12.The government has played down expectations that the skill of
:17:13. > :17:15.migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new
:17:16. > :17:20.restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was
:17:21. > :17:31.two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being
:17:32. > :17:37.seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday
:17:38. > :17:40.interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You
:17:41. > :17:46.criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from
:17:47. > :17:49.Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted
:17:50. > :17:54.arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the
:17:55. > :17:57.battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what
:17:58. > :18:00.preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from
:18:01. > :18:06.some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been
:18:07. > :18:11.better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of
:18:12. > :18:15.what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a
:18:16. > :18:21.series of measures that the Government still had time to bring
:18:22. > :18:25.in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There
:18:26. > :18:29.was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,
:18:30. > :18:33.and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do
:18:34. > :18:38.not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for
:18:39. > :18:43.everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking
:18:44. > :18:47.again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I
:18:48. > :18:53.understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not
:18:54. > :19:00.preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,
:19:01. > :19:04.I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency
:19:05. > :19:10.workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did
:19:11. > :19:14.support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I
:19:15. > :19:19.have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we
:19:20. > :19:24.recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in
:19:25. > :19:29.opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given
:19:30. > :19:33.your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in
:19:34. > :19:38.2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not
:19:39. > :19:43.keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I
:19:44. > :19:46.think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we
:19:47. > :19:49.did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the
:19:50. > :19:56.concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have
:19:57. > :19:58.come from people who have come to Britain over many generations
:19:59. > :20:01.contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise
:20:02. > :20:05.that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible
:20:06. > :20:11.for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures
:20:12. > :20:15.that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people
:20:16. > :20:18.have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.
:20:19. > :20:22.Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled
:20:23. > :20:26.and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on
:20:27. > :20:32.immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total
:20:33. > :20:35.net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in
:20:36. > :20:46.migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --
:20:47. > :20:50.twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We
:20:51. > :20:56.set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and
:20:57. > :21:00.it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?
:21:01. > :21:05.Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to
:21:06. > :21:10.Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have
:21:11. > :21:15.become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that
:21:16. > :21:19.has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls
:21:20. > :21:23.from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have
:21:24. > :21:29.sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm
:21:30. > :21:33.debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the
:21:34. > :21:38.full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What
:21:39. > :21:42.that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this
:21:43. > :21:48.country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.
:21:49. > :21:53.Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people
:21:54. > :21:58.coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come
:21:59. > :22:04.to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of
:22:05. > :22:09.control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was
:22:10. > :22:13.that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern
:22:14. > :22:16.Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened
:22:17. > :22:22.with not having transitional controls in place. The Government
:22:23. > :22:26.didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way
:22:27. > :22:31.it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.
:22:32. > :22:35.We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened
:22:36. > :22:40.in countries all over the world We travel and trade far more than ever.
:22:41. > :22:44.We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries
:22:45. > :22:48.have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing
:22:49. > :22:52.countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am
:22:53. > :22:57.trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you
:22:58. > :23:01.lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have
:23:02. > :23:05.already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a
:23:06. > :23:08.transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would
:23:09. > :23:13.have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have
:23:14. > :23:17.brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in
:23:18. > :23:21.towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration
:23:22. > :23:24.because there are different kinds of migration. University students
:23:25. > :23:28.coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the
:23:29. > :23:32.other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the
:23:33. > :23:38.jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour
:23:39. > :23:42.market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of
:23:43. > :23:45.migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the
:23:46. > :23:51.lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go
:23:52. > :23:57.to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came
:23:58. > :24:00.from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder
:24:01. > :24:06.of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and
:24:07. > :24:10.the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are
:24:11. > :24:13.nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that
:24:14. > :24:19.immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a
:24:20. > :24:24.mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession
:24:25. > :24:29.groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the
:24:30. > :24:33.changes that happened. Secondly in answer to the question that you just
:24:34. > :24:37.asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system
:24:38. > :24:40.at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the
:24:41. > :24:43.number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought
:24:44. > :24:48.billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not
:24:49. > :24:52.distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is
:24:53. > :24:55.starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem
:24:56. > :25:00.is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not
:25:01. > :25:04.address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats
:25:05. > :25:09.university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low
:25:10. > :25:14.skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to
:25:15. > :25:17.bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we
:25:18. > :25:22.would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There
:25:23. > :25:26.is something called student visas, which is not included in the
:25:27. > :25:31.figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a
:25:32. > :25:41.figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They
:25:42. > :25:44.come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they
:25:45. > :25:47.come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to
:25:48. > :25:50.come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the
:25:51. > :25:52.system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate
:25:53. > :25:55.and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give
:25:56. > :26:00.us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have
:26:01. > :26:04.seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made
:26:05. > :26:28.a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is
:26:29. > :26:31.right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which
:26:32. > :26:33.we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to
:26:34. > :26:36.listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then
:26:37. > :26:39.she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has
:26:40. > :26:41.chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I
:26:42. > :26:44.think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and
:26:45. > :26:47.reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.
:26:48. > :26:52.OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,00
:26:53. > :26:57.front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to
:26:58. > :27:01.fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that
:27:02. > :27:06.you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the
:27:07. > :27:10.Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.
:27:11. > :27:14.Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,
:27:15. > :27:23.and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have
:27:24. > :27:28.also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions
:27:29. > :27:33.dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not
:27:34. > :27:36.having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential
:27:37. > :27:40.increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth
:27:41. > :27:47.areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is
:27:48. > :27:50.about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over
:27:51. > :27:54.many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in
:27:55. > :27:58.the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People
:27:59. > :28:02.like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it
:28:03. > :28:07.leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens
:28:08. > :28:10.commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been
:28:11. > :28:16.the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of
:28:17. > :28:18.people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is
:28:19. > :28:22.about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working
:28:23. > :28:26.with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of
:28:27. > :28:30.their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved
:28:31. > :28:33.with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was
:28:34. > :28:40.to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you
:28:41. > :28:45.would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in
:28:46. > :28:48.all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is
:28:49. > :28:52.competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime
:28:53. > :28:56.and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point
:28:57. > :29:00.about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.
:29:01. > :29:07.It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of
:29:08. > :29:13.communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?
:29:14. > :29:18.Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised
:29:19. > :29:23.concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,
:29:24. > :29:29.Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million
:29:30. > :29:34.and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability
:29:35. > :29:39.at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.
:29:40. > :29:43.So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is
:29:44. > :29:54.which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out
:29:55. > :29:59.a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would
:30:00. > :30:04.be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't
:30:05. > :30:08.volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I
:30:09. > :30:13.think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented
:30:14. > :30:17.things and made it harder to get collaboration between police
:30:18. > :30:22.forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What
:30:23. > :30:29.is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't
:30:30. > :30:37.complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!
:30:38. > :30:42.In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential
:30:43. > :30:46.for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the
:30:47. > :30:52.Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game
:30:53. > :31:00.plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.
:31:01. > :31:03.In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you
:31:04. > :31:14.didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.
:31:15. > :31:32.Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling
:31:33. > :31:35.off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the
:31:36. > :31:41.scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of
:31:42. > :31:43.scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?
:31:44. > :31:46.There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and
:31:47. > :31:49.another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at
:31:50. > :32:00.conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain
:32:01. > :32:05.Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he
:32:06. > :32:09.may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of
:32:10. > :32:18.thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you
:32:19. > :32:23.ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be
:32:24. > :32:29.Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to
:32:30. > :32:36.be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of
:32:37. > :32:43.course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going
:32:44. > :32:45.to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader
:32:46. > :32:50.another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job
:32:51. > :32:56.Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It
:32:57. > :33:02.is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson
:33:03. > :33:05.to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so
:33:06. > :33:09.that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.
:33:10. > :33:12.And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man
:33:13. > :33:15.who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris
:33:16. > :33:21.replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job. In 1986, she took on the
:33:22. > :33:32.member for Henley, always a risky venture. And why might he make such
:33:33. > :33:37.a jibe, because he's won two more elections than the PM. Conservatives
:33:38. > :33:51.like a winner. Boris, against Robert expectations, has won the Mayor of
:33:52. > :33:54.London job twice. -- public. He might've built a following with the
:33:55. > :33:57.grassroots but he's on shakier ground with many Tory MPs, who see
:33:58. > :34:04.him as a selfish clown, unfit for high office. And besides, he's not
:34:05. > :34:07.the only one with king-sized ambition, and Boris and George are
:34:08. > :34:17.not close, however much they may profess unity. There is probably
:34:18. > :34:21.some Chinese expression for a complete and perfect harmony. Ying
:34:22. > :34:25.and yang. But in plain black and white, if Boris has a plan, it's one
:34:26. > :34:30.he can't instigate, and if David Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be
:34:31. > :34:37.implementable. He'd need a seat and it wouldn't be plain sailing if he
:34:38. > :34:41.did make a leadership bid. My leadership chances, I think I may
:34:42. > :34:45.have told you before, or about as good as my chances of ying
:34:46. > :34:49.reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high. So if the
:34:50. > :34:55.job you want with Brown-esque desire is potentially never to be yours
:34:56. > :35:01.what do you do? He is, of course, an American citizen by birth. He was
:35:02. > :35:06.born in New York public hospital, and so he is qualified to be
:35:07. > :35:10.President of the United States. And you don't need an IQ over 16 to find
:35:11. > :35:17.that the tiniest bit scary. Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis,
:35:18. > :35:24.Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are here. Is there a plan for Boris and
:35:25. > :35:27.if so, what is it? I think the plan is for him to say what he thinks the
:35:28. > :35:34.Tory activist base wants to hear just now. He knows that in 18 months
:35:35. > :35:38.time they can disown it. I think he is wrong, the way the speech has
:35:39. > :35:45.played has a limited number of people. He has cross-party appeal.
:35:46. > :35:48.He has now reconfirmed to people that the Tories are the nasty party
:35:49. > :35:55.and they have been pretending to be modernised. Is it not the truth that
:35:56. > :36:00.he needs David Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in
:36:01. > :36:07.this decade? It is very interesting watching his fortunes wax and wane.
:36:08. > :36:11.It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how well David Cameron
:36:12. > :36:14.is doing in front of his own party. There is no small element of
:36:15. > :36:19.strategy about what we are doing here. The problem with Boris is that
:36:20. > :36:26.he's popular with the country, but not with the party's MPs and its
:36:27. > :36:30.hard-core supporters. This was an appeal to the grassroots this week.
:36:31. > :36:37.He is not the only potential candidate. If we were in some kind
:36:38. > :36:43.of circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr Cameron, who
:36:44. > :36:52.with the other front the? I think it will skip a generation. The recent
:36:53. > :36:57.intake was ideological assertive. I do not buy the idea that it will be
:36:58. > :37:05.Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I then, that generation will be
:37:06. > :37:12.tainted by being in government. It is interesting, what is he trying to
:37:13. > :37:15.pull? He is ideological. He does not believe in many things, but he
:37:16. > :37:19.believes in a few things quite deeply, and one is the idea of
:37:20. > :37:23.competition, both in business and academic selection. He has never
:37:24. > :37:33.been squeamish about expressing that. We do make mistakes sometimes,
:37:34. > :37:37.assuming he is entirely political. Look at all the Northern voters who
:37:38. > :37:44.will not vote for the Tories even though they are socially or economic
:37:45. > :37:51.the Conservatives. I do not think he helps. Who in the Tories would
:37:52. > :38:00.help? That is a tough question. To reason me has also been speaking to
:38:01. > :38:05.the hard right. -- Theresa May. I have been out with him at night It
:38:06. > :38:10.is like dining with a film star People are queueing up to speak to
:38:11. > :38:15.him. Educational selection is one of the few areas that he can offer He
:38:16. > :38:35.has gone liberal on immigration as are made of London would have to.
:38:36. > :38:44.Welcome to Sunday Politics in the East. Coming up, as George Osbourne
:38:45. > :38:47.prepares for his Autumn Statement, we look at the pressures on local
:38:48. > :38:54.services. In particular, proposed cuts to rural bus routes. Some
:38:55. > :39:01.passenger journeys cost as much as ?15. It was not a good way of
:39:02. > :39:04.spending public money. It will leave us stranded. We are all important
:39:05. > :39:08.and need to get around as easily as other people do.
:39:09. > :39:14.Let's get down to business with the news that one of this region's
:39:15. > :39:17.longest serving MPs has been dropped by his constituency party. Tim Yeo
:39:18. > :39:20.has represented South Suffolk for the last 30 years but the local
:39:21. > :39:26.association have announced they do not want him to be their man of the
:39:27. > :39:32.next election. The views of our guests in a moment. They are George
:39:33. > :39:38.Knox and the Conservative MP for Norwich North. First, this report.
:39:39. > :39:44.It was not supposed to end like this. For the last 30 years, Tim Yeo
:39:45. > :39:48.has been a hard`working member of Parliament, re`elected with thumping
:39:49. > :39:54.majorities on every occasion. In his constituency this weekend, surprise.
:39:55. > :40:00.I think it is a bit rotten without a very good reason. He has done a good
:40:01. > :40:06.job. He has always fought for things in the town. 30 years is a long
:40:07. > :40:12.time. Possibly not the way it has been done but possibly 30 years, he
:40:13. > :40:17.has had enough time to make changes. Is a little bit of `` there is a
:40:18. > :40:22.little bit of controversy about some of his changes but I think it is
:40:23. > :40:28.wanting a younger boys. In parliament, he had become an elder
:40:29. > :40:30.statesman. As Chair of the environment select committee, a
:40:31. > :40:36.respected, controversial voice on green matters. Last week, he was one
:40:37. > :40:41.of 25 Conservative MPs who told the prime ministers you this dividing
:40:42. > :40:45.the party if he dropped his green agenda. In an interview, he had
:40:46. > :40:50.warned against cutting green taxes in this week's Autumn Statement.
:40:51. > :40:56.Green taxes account for about 10% of the average energy bill and some of
:40:57. > :40:58.them are designed to help able improve their energy efficiency. I
:40:59. > :41:02.am not sure it is the right place to be looking at. I think it would make
:41:03. > :41:06.a small difference and might even reduce some of the support for
:41:07. > :41:10.energy efficiency measures, which particularly helped fuel poor
:41:11. > :41:17.households. You are out on a limb within your party, are you not? I am
:41:18. > :41:21.used to sometimes having to file a lonely furrow that Macleod. But I
:41:22. > :41:26.will continue to argue for what I believe is right for energy
:41:27. > :41:30.consumers and security. Labour said the deselection showed the Tories
:41:31. > :41:34.were reverting to type with no place for those who believed in green
:41:35. > :41:38.issues. But this weekend's developments are more to do with how
:41:39. > :41:44.he was perceived in South Suffolk. I have been hearing stories for the
:41:45. > :41:47.past year about concerns within the local party that Tim Yeo was typing
:41:48. > :41:51.seen much in the constituency and appeared to be spending too much
:41:52. > :41:55.time on his outside and well`paid business interests rather than
:41:56. > :42:01.Parliament. `` was not seen much. These are claims which he denied. I
:42:02. > :42:05.am told that local members look enviously at the younger MPs in
:42:06. > :42:07.neighbouring constituencies, who were seen a lot of Parliament,
:42:08. > :42:16.championing welcoming issues `` championing local issues. This
:42:17. > :42:20.undercover sting by the Sunday Times was the final straw. He was cleared
:42:21. > :42:28.last week of any wrongdoing but to be seen boasting about his influence
:42:29. > :42:32.did not look good. Introducing tolls on roads without an alternative...
:42:33. > :42:36.His question about the A14 Toll Rd was seen by some as an attempt to
:42:37. > :42:41.show his local party that he was still feeling. It was too late.
:42:42. > :42:46.Conservatives had hoped he would choose not to stand at the next
:42:47. > :42:48.election and make a dignified exit but they had to make the decision
:42:49. > :42:53.for him. We will talk about policy around
:42:54. > :42:58.energy but less walk about Tim Yeo first. Are you surprised that such
:42:59. > :43:01.an elder statesman has been treated in this way? I am not surprised in
:43:02. > :43:10.view of the last Parliament report in the Sunday Times. Nobody has a
:43:11. > :43:16.job for life. The idea that somehow deselection is some sort of, you
:43:17. > :43:20.know, something on fear is wrong. You're not entitled to a job for
:43:21. > :43:31.life. You have to deserve it. `` something not fair. I in favour of
:43:32. > :43:36.regular reselection. Indeed, a leading Conservative councillor
:43:37. > :43:40.recently called for all to be reselected. What I could you see
:43:41. > :43:46.this as a formality? How does it work? In the Conservative party, the
:43:47. > :43:52.local constituency has the right to choose the handed it. There are
:43:53. > :43:55.different methods of choosing. Some hold large events, local primaries,
:43:56. > :44:00.there may be more. In my case, we had a meeting with local members and
:44:01. > :44:03.I was pleased to be able to lay out my record as an MP to date and heard
:44:04. > :44:10.what I wanted to achieve with them and 19 in the future. In my case, it
:44:11. > :44:17.was a very happy occasion. `` and plan what I wanted to achieve. What
:44:18. > :44:19.about the issue of longevity? Surely Westminster should be wholly
:44:20. > :44:23.representative and have people of all ages? It is absolutely up to the
:44:24. > :44:31.local party. Let's face it, although we like to pretend that we are so
:44:32. > :44:33.wonderful, I do not think any of us would be elected if we were not
:44:34. > :44:38.representing a political party. That is the reality of the situation.
:44:39. > :44:43.People vote because of their political affiliations and I do not
:44:44. > :44:46.think... It is therefore up to local parties to choose who they want to
:44:47. > :44:53.have as their standard`bearer. You can run as independent if you want.
:44:54. > :44:57.Do you think there is a generation gap at Westminster? I was pleased in
:44:58. > :44:59.2010 to see lots more people of different ages coming to Parliament.
:45:00. > :45:03.I have been on record consistently saying that we need both old and
:45:04. > :45:09.young in Parliament. I am at the younger end and very pleased to be
:45:10. > :45:15.able to do more work at bringing younger people into politics. It is
:45:16. > :45:19.crucial. I am at the older end! Conservatives said ?50 on energy
:45:20. > :45:26.bills. Energy bills are going up for more than ?50 per year. It is a very
:45:27. > :45:31.small amount. We're not going to get the details until next Thursday but
:45:32. > :45:36.I think this is a feeble attempt to try to steal Ed Miliband's thunder.
:45:37. > :45:41.Ed Miliband's proposals are quite clear`cut. Will come back to that in
:45:42. > :45:47.a moment. You heard what Mr Nobbs had to say. You have been accused of
:45:48. > :45:50.making politics on the hood. Ed Miliband's pose to is a con to stop
:45:51. > :45:56.you cannot just freeze prices because everybody knows they would
:45:57. > :46:02.go up. `` con. I think this morning's Postal 's which will be
:46:03. > :46:07.fleshed out this week seek to `` this morning's proposals, which will
:46:08. > :46:11.be fleshed out, what people need of their bills, to reward the need for
:46:12. > :46:15.the cost of living to come down, which we have other policies on as
:46:16. > :46:20.well. It has got to be a balance. There is not a single magic that.
:46:21. > :46:24.What about the fact that you can freeze this for 20 months but prices
:46:25. > :46:32.were what after? Superman this is why when Mrs Thatcher privatised
:46:33. > :46:34.these companies had a `` the good sense to prevent a monopoly. We
:46:35. > :46:39.cannot do without any of these things and that is why this is that
:46:40. > :46:44.appointed regulators. You not think there is a flaw? No.
:46:45. > :46:49.Obviously not. Otherwise there would not be advocating it. Ed Balls has
:46:50. > :46:54.said that the Conservatives are running scared of the energy
:46:55. > :47:00.companies, what you see? They are taking action on the cost of living.
:47:01. > :47:03.We are going to move on to look at the impact of council cuts on bus
:47:04. > :47:08.routes. First, a little background. There are some services that
:47:09. > :47:14.councils have to provide. A fire service, good schools, decent
:47:15. > :47:17.roads. Other areas, like bus travel, are discretionary. When council
:47:18. > :47:21.started looking for savings, the state of subsidy quickly comes under
:47:22. > :47:28.the microscope. `` when council 's start looking.
:47:29. > :47:31.Jackie lives in the village. She cannot afford to run a castle couple
:47:32. > :47:38.times a week, she travels with a group of friends on the one bus
:47:39. > :47:44.Purdy to Royston. She relies on the bus for helping to create a small
:47:45. > :47:52.community. `` hair day. It is a friendly atmosphere on the bus. That
:47:53. > :47:57.also makes the David Broder. Now she and her friends are worried that the
:47:58. > :48:02.bus operator might lose its subsidy. `` also makes a DDR bit brighter.
:48:03. > :48:06.How worried are you that the service might disappear? We are worried
:48:07. > :48:13.because we rely on it. We would be lost without it. We would lose our
:48:14. > :48:16.independence. There are other means of transport but would prefer to
:48:17. > :48:20.keep our costs. Cambridgeshire County Council has had to find
:48:21. > :48:27.savings of ?150 million over five years. That is why it took a long
:48:28. > :48:32.hard look at the bus subsidy. It was costing around ?2.7 million per
:48:33. > :48:36.year. We have to look at all aspects of spend and looked at the bus
:48:37. > :48:41.subsidy. We think that this was not providing good value for money for
:48:42. > :48:45.the council taxpayer. When some passenger journeys were costing as
:48:46. > :48:52.much as 14 or ?15, it was not a good way of spending public money.
:48:53. > :48:56.This is the bus which serves other villages `` villages to the south of
:48:57. > :49:00.Cambridge. It as an example of how the council sees the future. By
:49:01. > :49:04.changing the route, using a smaller bus and working more closely with
:49:05. > :49:08.commercial partners, it is hoping to see some ?200,000 on this route
:49:09. > :49:14.alone. The council is reviewing some 50 routes across the county and
:49:15. > :49:17.trying to find further savings. Susan is the Liberal Democrat
:49:18. > :49:28.councillor for Melbourne and Mildred. `` for the villagers. She
:49:29. > :49:31.is concerned that this has created an atmosphere of uncertainty. If
:49:32. > :49:34.services are cut, vulnerable people could suffer, costing the council
:49:35. > :49:43.more in the long`term. The cost of social care for people who are
:49:44. > :49:47.isolated and may develop other problems due to isolation, the cost
:49:48. > :49:54.of social care is expensive. It is something like ?15 per hour. We need
:49:55. > :49:57.to think about the implications of removing what really is lifeline
:49:58. > :50:02.transport. Back on the bus to Royston, Jackie
:50:03. > :50:07.is keeping our fingers crossed. If you had to give a message to the
:50:08. > :50:13.council, what would your message be? Please do not leave us stranded. We
:50:14. > :50:17.are all important. We need to get around as easily as other people do.
:50:18. > :50:24.So please do not leave us in the lurch. They do not want to lose
:50:25. > :50:30.their bus. Can you say for sure that they will not? I cannot. Nobody
:50:31. > :50:38.wants to lose their bus but what we will do is talk to them. We will try
:50:39. > :50:42.to work it out with any area, not just that village, but any village
:50:43. > :50:45.or town in the county. We will talk to people first.
:50:46. > :50:52.There are no guarantees from the council, only difficult choices. Try
:50:53. > :50:58.telling that to people like Jackie. When it comes to transport, the
:50:59. > :51:01.choices are not difficult. The one to get to Royston is pretty much her
:51:02. > :51:06.only choice. Since 2010, these are some of the
:51:07. > :51:14.cuts to bus subsidies which have already gone through. The biggest in
:51:15. > :51:18.Suffolk. All three rural counties had to make big cuts. Further
:51:19. > :51:21.savings could well be on the way. Essex has an ?8 million budget for
:51:22. > :51:27.subsidies and it is consulting on cuts at the moment. Earlier this
:51:28. > :51:32.week, I spoke to local government Minister Brandon Lewis. I began by
:51:33. > :51:37.going back to film and the passengers and asking if one bus
:51:38. > :51:42.today into Royston is too much to expect. I think she makes a good
:51:43. > :51:46.point. She is absolutely right to want to keep that service. In the
:51:47. > :51:50.countryside it is important to be able to have access out over your
:51:51. > :51:55.lives and into it. Whether it is to go to work, shopping, visit friends
:51:56. > :51:58.or family. I think it is a very fair point. Particularly in
:51:59. > :52:03.Cambridgeshire whether it is an increase in council tax next year
:52:04. > :52:06.for `` last year. The right to say that they are spending money and so
:52:07. > :52:11.it should be spent on services they want. You mentioned that campaigned
:52:12. > :52:16.to keep services in Norfolk. You say that the system is broken and needs
:52:17. > :52:23.reforming. Are you telling me that it is not the job of the Department
:52:24. > :52:28.to help reformers? The reform of how this works comes through Department
:52:29. > :52:32.for Transport. `` to help reformers. We did manage to confirm that there
:52:33. > :52:36.are these flexibilities that councils can use. If they are
:52:37. > :52:40.looking at a bus service that has very low usage, they can look at
:52:41. > :52:43.other ways of providing that service and use the money in more effective
:52:44. > :52:48.ways. Campaigners say that departments such as yours need to
:52:49. > :52:54.work more closely with other departments to try to persuade
:52:55. > :52:59.people of the benefits of bus travel and ring fence a pool of funding so
:53:00. > :53:03.that we can maintain the subsidies. We do not ring fenced money for
:53:04. > :53:06.local government. We trust local government, councillors who we
:53:07. > :53:12.elect, to make the decisions that are right. We put a lot of pressure
:53:13. > :53:16.on them. I am very open about this. The councils and council officers
:53:17. > :53:20.should be looking at the needs of local residents. I am not saying
:53:21. > :53:24.that every village should his own bus route and service if there is
:53:25. > :53:28.very few people using it `` should have its own bus route. Some
:53:29. > :53:31.councils may say that a taxi service or a small bus may be more
:53:32. > :53:36.appropriate. If you live in the countryside, do you not agree that
:53:37. > :53:40.we need a better deal for rural communities? The funding is 50% less
:53:41. > :53:45.in real terms. What you have to look at is that when we look at funding
:53:46. > :53:48.across it and the whole package of funding that local authorities get,
:53:49. > :53:53.they get a very fair share of the funding. We did get extra funding
:53:54. > :53:57.for rural bus routes. The Department of Transport put extra money across.
:53:58. > :54:00.We have also got to make sure that her pencils look their whole pot of
:54:01. > :54:07.money and how they spend it. `` our councils. Do you deny that there has
:54:08. > :54:10.been too much of a cut? Local governments have done well and
:54:11. > :54:14.reports show that satisfaction of council services has gone up since
:54:15. > :54:22.2010. But the cuts are only just beginning to bite. Actually, the
:54:23. > :54:26.cuts and changes has been a couple of percent. It is not that great a
:54:27. > :54:30.change in spending power. There is no protection for that to change
:54:31. > :54:34.dramatically. There are a lot of scare stories but the reality is
:54:35. > :54:36.that the spending power council have changed pretty minimally. We have
:54:37. > :54:40.been able to freeze council tax. That makes a big difference for
:54:41. > :54:43.people and reality with the cost of living being an issue. That is a few
:54:44. > :54:47.hundred pounds per year saved for people since 2010. That is really
:54:48. > :54:50.good. What we are racing to local authorities is that where there is
:54:51. > :54:55.less money, and from central government, central government has
:54:56. > :55:00.got to live with and means, `` within its means, we have got to
:55:01. > :55:04.make sure that money is being spent on those important following
:55:05. > :55:10.services to stop thank you very much.
:55:11. > :55:13.Mr Nobbs, you have been the leader of the County Council for six
:55:14. > :55:20.months, bus subsidies must be pretty low on your list of things to save.
:55:21. > :55:23.Are they? The Iraqi are not go on my list of priorities as Norfolk is one
:55:24. > :55:29.of the most rural counties. They are a vital service. `` they are not low
:55:30. > :55:32.on my list of priorities. He says the system is broken and needs
:55:33. > :55:38.mending buttons to think it is nobody's responsibility. `` and
:55:39. > :55:43.needs mending but seems to think. My counsel, unlike every other County
:55:44. > :55:51.Council, has had to face massive cuts. We have now got to make
:55:52. > :55:58.another ?189 million of cuts. On top of that, thanks to the lobbying of
:55:59. > :56:05.Norfolk, `` Norfolk's MPs, we have lost ground. It is nonsense,
:56:06. > :56:08.absolute nonsense. Do you know how much are discretionary spending will
:56:09. > :56:14.become over this six`year period? 52%. For Brandon tried to make it
:56:15. > :56:17.this is a drop in the ocean is nonsense.
:56:18. > :56:20.What about this message he was trying to convey? There is more
:56:21. > :56:27.austerity to come, is there not? I want to speak up in the taxpayer.
:56:28. > :56:30.This is not the council's money, it is taxpayers' money. The reason
:56:31. > :56:33.there is not very much of it available is because the Labour
:56:34. > :56:48.Party, winning government, spend too much and borrowed too much and ran
:56:49. > :56:51.up the debts. It is easy to make cuts? The Labour Party can blame the
:56:52. > :56:53.other lot. I do not think there is any point in doing that. I will
:56:54. > :56:55.certainly, along with every Council Leader in this country blame the
:56:56. > :56:58.Government. There is not a party political issue as far as I'm
:56:59. > :57:01.concerned. I am happy to stand alongside Conservative County
:57:02. > :57:05.Council leaders and say the Government is being unfair to local
:57:06. > :57:10.government. Are they making a 52% cut in their budgets? No, they are
:57:11. > :57:18.not. We are having to do it. What about these figures? Mr Nobbs and
:57:19. > :57:21.Brandon Lewis are seeing quite a different things. I do not think the
:57:22. > :57:27.taxpayer cares whether it is local or central. Yes, they do. This is
:57:28. > :57:31.about the money that comes from people's taxes and is in the sense
:57:32. > :57:34.of what people has just `` the Government has to spend. There is
:57:35. > :57:36.not enough because we have had to make tough decisions which are only
:57:37. > :57:41.fair to make for the next generation. We have got to be
:57:42. > :57:44.responsible in the sense of not loading debts onto our children. How
:57:45. > :57:48.fair at the Conservatives being on people who live in rural areas? I do
:57:49. > :57:52.not think they are forgetting rural people. I would point to a local
:57:53. > :57:57.success which Brandon and the County Council have been part of West the
:57:58. > :58:03.campaign last year which was a great success. What are your fears, Mr
:58:04. > :58:08.Nobbs, for people living in rural areas? I am concerned with the whole
:58:09. > :58:12.issue of rural isolation because you cannot continue to keep squeezing
:58:13. > :58:17.local government. Ask any Conservative council leader whether
:58:18. > :58:22.he agrees with you or me. You cannot continue to keep squeezing local
:58:23. > :58:26.government, expecting them to carry the burden of the Government. The
:58:27. > :58:32.Government is not cutting its own expenditure. It is asking local
:58:33. > :58:38.government today. There is a very important point... The Lehman
:58:39. > :58:44.Brothers responsible for the crisis in Greece. It is Gordon Brown's
:58:45. > :58:47.fault. The practical thing is to look to the back office costs. I was
:58:48. > :58:53.part of saving ?10 billion for the taxpayer. Norfolk County Council...
:58:54. > :58:58.How much have you saved? How much have you saved? We will
:58:59. > :59:06.discuss that with her. It is time for a summary. Mr Nobbs, you make
:59:07. > :59:16.the cut in our 62nd round up. `` 60 second round up.
:59:17. > :59:19.Last week, Norfolk County Council partnering with Southwark. This
:59:20. > :59:22.week, controversy over delays to Labour's plans for a move towards
:59:23. > :59:26.the committee system which shares more power. While the East of
:59:27. > :59:30.England Ambulance Service has admitted it still needs hundreds
:59:31. > :59:35.more paramedics before it can meet its targets for getting to emergency
:59:36. > :59:39.calls on time. I am not hiding the fact that the agreement is a
:59:40. > :59:42.problem. Add is not down to me not trying to grab people. MPs and
:59:43. > :59:47.business leaders lobbied the Transport Secretary, and David
:59:48. > :59:53.Cameron was forced to reiterate that he is looking at the planned toll
:59:54. > :59:57.for the A14 upgrade. I am well aware of the strong feelings in Suffolk
:59:58. > :00:01.about this issue. I have been approached by many members of
:00:02. > :00:04.public. Partnership has said it wants to
:00:05. > :00:10.create 65,000 jobs across Norfolk and Suffolk by 20 25. Here in the
:00:11. > :00:14.East of England, we have got unemployment is lower than the
:00:15. > :00:19.national average. That brings with it problems of needing to make sure
:00:20. > :00:23.that are not skilled people around. Briefly, let's talk about the A14.
:00:24. > :00:29.You are former Treasury minister. Any U`turns? I think the Prime
:00:30. > :00:36.Minister has been quite clear. He has been asked twice on this. I
:00:37. > :00:38.personally think that the Suffolk campaign is quite persuasive. It
:00:39. > :00:44.seems unfair to have only one road up for the tour. Mr Nobbs, why do
:00:45. > :00:48.you think there has been so much campaigning in Suffolk and not from
:00:49. > :00:52.Norfolk? That is not true. Suffolk and Norfolk are as one on this. Jim
:00:53. > :00:58.Rodger has also played its part. Norfolk County Council voted last
:00:59. > :01:05.Monday against any tools. `` Cambridgeshire has also played its
:01:06. > :01:09.part. Do you back that all? No. Others say, I think the campaign is
:01:10. > :01:15.quite persuasive. It seems unfair to have just one road. Thank you for
:01:16. > :01:21.joining us. That is all for now. You can keep in touch through our
:01:22. > :01:22.website. You will also find links, a blog and all the latest political
:01:23. > :01:24.updates. We blog and all the latest political
:01:25. > :01:28.picked out. People thought he was touching on eugenics and things like
:01:29. > :01:45.that. That is all we have time for. Thank you. What rabbit has George
:01:46. > :01:51.Osborne got up his sleeve? And what's David Cameron up to in China?
:01:52. > :01:58.All questions for The Week Ahead. To help the panel led, we are joined by
:01:59. > :02:03.Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Why has the
:02:04. > :02:08.government been unable to move the agenda and to the broad economic
:02:09. > :02:13.recovery, and allowed the agenda to stay on Labour's ground of energy
:02:14. > :02:18.prices and living standards? Energy has been a big issue over the last
:02:19. > :02:21.few months but the autumn state and will be a wonderful opportunity to
:02:22. > :02:26.readdress where we are fighting the ground, the good economic news that
:02:27. > :02:31.we delivered. If you look at where Labour were earlier this year,
:02:32. > :02:36.people were saying they would they 5 million people unemployed. They were
:02:37. > :02:44.saying that there should be a plan B. He is not in the Labour Party?
:02:45. > :02:49.Elements of the left were suggesting it. Peter Hain told me it would be
:02:50. > :02:55.up to 3 million people. Danny Blanchflower said it would be 5
:02:56. > :03:00.million people. So we have got to get the economy back to the centre
:03:01. > :03:05.of the debate? Yes, the game we were playing was about the economy. That
:03:06. > :03:10.was the central fighting ground of the political debate. We were
:03:11. > :03:14.winning that battle. Labour have cleverly shifted it onto the cost of
:03:15. > :03:19.living. It is essential that the government, that George, talks about
:03:20. > :03:28.the economy. That has been its great success. I do not think this has
:03:29. > :03:36.been a week of admitting that Labour was right, plain cigarettes
:03:37. > :03:39.packaging, other issues. If you look at the big picture, where we are
:03:40. > :03:45.with the economy, we have the fastest growing economy in the G-7.
:03:46. > :03:51.Despite Labour's predictions, none of this has happened, none of the
:03:52. > :03:54.triple dip has happened. The British economy is on a good fitting. That
:03:55. > :04:00.is a good story for the government to bat on. You say that people have
:04:01. > :04:03.stopped talking about the economic recovery, but it is worse than that,
:04:04. > :04:09.people have stopped talking about the deficit? As long as people were
:04:10. > :04:16.talking about the deficit, the Tories were trusted. But people have
:04:17. > :04:20.forgotten about it. This country still spends ?100 billion more than
:04:21. > :04:25.it raises. Yes, I am of the view that the deficit, the national
:04:26. > :04:31.debt, is the biggest question facing this generation of politicians. You
:04:32. > :04:37.are right to suggest that the Conservative Party was strong on
:04:38. > :04:42.this. That head, not deficit, is not going to come down in the
:04:43. > :04:46.foreseeable future? It is rising. This is a test that George Osborne
:04:47. > :04:51.is not going to pass. We know what is coming in the Autumn Statement,
:04:52. > :04:56.it is lots of giveaways, paying for free school meals, paying for fuel
:04:57. > :05:01.duty subsidies. We are still talking about the cost of living, not
:05:02. > :05:06.changing it actively wider economy. There might be extra money for
:05:07. > :05:13.growth but it is not clear what will happen to that. If it is time for
:05:14. > :05:19.giveaways, let's speak about Labour. I have never been a fan of
:05:20. > :05:25.giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what our watchword should be. Look at the
:05:26. > :05:31.headlines. Each time, the deficit figures, the debt figures, were
:05:32. > :05:37.always worse than predicted. This year it will be significantly
:05:38. > :05:41.better. I think that is significant. Any kind of recovery is probably
:05:42. > :05:47.better than no recovery at all. When you look at this recovery, it is
:05:48. > :05:52.basically a consumer spending boom. Consumer spending is up, business
:05:53. > :06:00.investment is way down compared with 2008, and exports, despite a 20
:06:01. > :06:04.devaluation, our flat. Let's get one thing straight, it is a recovery.
:06:05. > :06:11.Any recovery is better than no recovery. Now we can have a debate
:06:12. > :06:16.about, technical debate about the elements of the recovery. It is not
:06:17. > :06:21.technical, it is a fact. There is evidence that there is optimism in
:06:22. > :06:28.terms of what are thinking... Optimism? If I am optimistic about
:06:29. > :06:34.the economy, I am more likely to spend money and invest in business.
:06:35. > :06:39.So far you have not managed that? Exports have not done well either?
:06:40. > :06:44.Exports are not a big section of the British economy. But of course, they
:06:45. > :06:50.are important. But given where we were at the end of last year, no
:06:51. > :06:54.economist was saying that we would be in this robust position today.
:06:55. > :07:02.That is true, in terms of the overall recovery. Now the PM loves
:07:03. > :07:05.to "bang the drum abroad for British business" and he's off to China this
:07:06. > :07:07.evening with a plane-load of British business leaders. And it's not the
:07:08. > :08:01.first time. Take a look at this Well, you might not think exports
:08:02. > :08:06.unimportant, but clearly the Prime Minister and the Chancellor do. They
:08:07. > :08:11.are important, but they are not what is driving the growth at the moment.
:08:12. > :08:14.We used to talk about the need for export led recovery is, that is why
:08:15. > :08:21.the Prime Minister is going to China. Absolutely, and he's doing
:08:22. > :08:26.the right thing. Do we have any evidence that these tend of trips
:08:27. > :08:30.produce business? The main example so far is the right to trade the
:08:31. > :08:36.Chinese currency offshore. London has a kind of global primacy. London
:08:37. > :08:42.will be the offshore centre. Is that a good thing? I have no problem at
:08:43. > :08:45.all with this sort of policy. I do not think that Britain has been
:08:46. > :08:49.doing this enough compared with France and Germany in recent years.
:08:50. > :08:57.I am optimistic in the long term about this dish -- about British
:08:58. > :09:03.exports to China. China need machine tools and manufacturing products. In
:09:04. > :09:08.20 years time, China will be buying professional groups, educational
:09:09. > :09:12.services, the things we excel at. All we need to do is consolidate our
:09:13. > :09:17.strengths, stand still and we will move forward. The worst thing we can
:09:18. > :09:22.do is reengineer the economy towards those services and away from
:09:23. > :09:28.something else. We have a lot of ground to make up, Helen? At one
:09:29. > :09:32.stage, it is no longer true, but at one stage you could say that we
:09:33. > :09:38.exported more to Ireland, a country of 4 million people, than we did to
:09:39. > :09:47.Russia, China, India, Brazil, all combined. I believe we form 1% of
:09:48. > :09:53.Chinese imports now. The problem is what you have to give up in exchange
:09:54. > :09:56.for that. It is a big problem for David Cameron's credibility that he
:09:57. > :10:03.has had to row back on his meeting with the Dalai llama. This trip we
:10:04. > :10:09.have been in the deep freeze with China for a couple of years. This
:10:10. > :10:13.trip has come at a high cost. We have had to open up the City of
:10:14. > :10:16.London to Chinese banks without much scrutiny, we have had to move the
:10:17. > :10:22.date of the Autumn Statement, and there is no mention of human rights.
:10:23. > :10:26.It is awkward to deal with that all in the name of getting up to where
:10:27. > :10:33.we were a few years ago. A month after strong anchor -- one month
:10:34. > :10:40.after Sri Lanka, where he apologised three human rights abuses, this is
:10:41. > :10:44.difficult to take. Do we have any idea what the Prime Minister hopes
:10:45. > :10:47.to do in China this time? I am not sure there is anything specific but
:10:48. > :10:52.when you go to these countries, certainly in the Middle East China,
:10:53. > :10:59.they complain, why has the Prime Minister not come to see us? That is
:11:00. > :11:03.very important. High-level delegations from other countries go
:11:04. > :11:15.to these places because the addict -- because they are important export
:11:16. > :11:19.markets. You might look at the Prime Minister playing cricket over there,
:11:20. > :11:24.and wonder, what is that for? I do not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy
:11:25. > :11:30.cricket. This is a high visibility mission, chose that politicians in
:11:31. > :11:34.Britain care. You are part of the free enterprise group. It had all
:11:35. > :11:40.sorts of things on it like tax cuts for those on middle incomes or above
:11:41. > :11:48.the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16 billion. You will get none of that
:11:49. > :11:51.on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But he does have two budgets between now
:11:52. > :11:59.and the election and if the fiscal position is using a little bit, he
:12:00. > :12:02.may have more leeway than it looked like a couple of months ago. Yes,
:12:03. > :12:10.from a free enter prise point of view, we have looked at the tax cuts
:12:11. > :12:15.that should be looked at. The 4 p rate comes in at quite a low level
:12:16. > :12:19.for people who, in the south-east, do not feel particularly wealthy.
:12:20. > :12:26.They are spending a lot of money on commuting, energy bills. The
:12:27. > :12:30.Chancellor has been very open about championing this. He says that the
:12:31. > :12:35.40p rate will kick in at a slightly higher rate. Labour had a bad summer
:12:36. > :12:42.and the opinion polls seem to be narrowing. Then they had a good
:12:43. > :12:44.hearty conference season. The best. Has the Labour lead solidified or
:12:45. > :12:50.increased the little, maybe up to eight points? If it is a good Autumn
:12:51. > :12:57.Statement, or the Tories start to narrow that lead by the end of the
:12:58. > :13:02.year? If they go into 2014 trailing by single digits, they cannot
:13:03. > :13:07.complain too much. That gives them 18 months to chip away at Labour's
:13:08. > :13:11.lead. But do they do that chipping away by eight bidding Labour or do
:13:12. > :13:14.they let time take its course and let the economic recovery continue,
:13:15. > :13:20.maybe business investment joins consumer spending as a source of
:13:21. > :13:25.that recovery, and a year from now, household disposable income begins
:13:26. > :13:31.to rise? That is a better hope than engaging in a bidding war. Be
:13:32. > :13:34.assured, they will be highly political budgets. That's all for
:13:35. > :13:37.today. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at midday all this week, except
:13:38. > :13:40.on Thursday when we'll start at 10:45 to bring you live coverage and
:13:41. > :13:43.analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn Statement in a Daily Politics
:13:44. > :13:45.special for BBC Two and the BBC News Channel. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:46. > :13:48.it's the Sunday Politics.