:00:38. > :00:42.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:45.Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.
:00:46. > :00:50.He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back
:00:51. > :00:54.the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old
:00:55. > :00:57.Labour? If you go to work by public
:00:58. > :01:00.transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -
:01:01. > :01:04.again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's
:01:05. > :01:08.our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week
:01:09. > :01:12.across much of the UK, but what s the outlook according to this man?
:01:13. > :01:20.This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party veterans like
:01:21. > :01:24.Here in the east, what is a fair day's pay? Cancels campaign for a
:01:25. > :01:43.living wage. And with me - as always - the
:01:44. > :01:46.political panel so fresh-faced, entertaining and downright popular
:01:47. > :01:49.they make Justin Bieber look like a boring old has-been just desperate
:01:50. > :01:52.to get your attention. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and
:01:53. > :02:05.they'll be tweeting quicker than a yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami
:02:06. > :02:12.Beach. Being political nerds, they have no idea what I'm talking about.
:02:13. > :02:16.Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all yesterday. We kinda thought Labour
:02:17. > :02:20.would head for the election with a return to the 50p top rate of tax.
:02:21. > :02:23.But we didn't think he'd do it now. He did! The polls say it's popular,
:02:24. > :02:27.Labour activists now have a spring in their step. The Tories say it's a
:02:28. > :02:30.return to the bad old days of the '70s, and bosses now think Labour is
:02:31. > :02:32.anti-business. Here's the Shadow Chancellor speaking earlier this
:02:33. > :02:35.morning. I was part of a Government which did very many things to open
:02:36. > :02:37.up markets, to make the Bank of England independent, to work closely
:02:38. > :02:39.with business, but the reality is we are in very difficult circumstances
:02:40. > :02:41.and because if I'm honest you, George Osborne's failure in the last
:02:42. > :02:46.few years, those difficult circumstances will last into the
:02:47. > :02:56.next Parliament. Business people have said to me they want to get the
:02:57. > :03:02.deficit down, of course they do But to cut the top rate... It is foolish
:03:03. > :03:05.and feeds resentment I want to do the opposite and say look,
:03:06. > :03:10.pro-business, pro investment, pro market, but pro fairness. Let's get
:03:11. > :03:17.this deficit down in a fairway and make the reforms to make our economy
:03:18. > :03:23.work for the long term. What are the political implications of Labour now
:03:24. > :03:27.in favour of a 50%, in practise 352% top rate of tax? One of the
:03:28. > :03:31.political implications I don't think exist is that they'll win new
:03:32. > :03:35.voters. I'm not sure many people out there would think, I would love to
:03:36. > :03:42.vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not sure if he wants to tax rich people
:03:43. > :03:48.enough. It will con Dale their existing vote but I don't think it
:03:49. > :03:53.is the kind of, in the 1990s we talked about triangulation, moving
:03:54. > :03:56.beyond your core vote, I don't think it is a policy like that. If there
:03:57. > :04:00.has been a policy like that this year, this month, it has been the
:04:01. > :04:04.Tories' move on minimum wage. I thought Labour would come back with
:04:05. > :04:09.their own version, a centre-right policy, and instead they have done
:04:10. > :04:13.this. I think we talk about the 35% strategy that Labour supposed will
:04:14. > :04:19.have, I think it is a policy in that direction rather than the thing Tony
:04:20. > :04:27.Blair or Gordon Brown would have done. Where he was not clear is on
:04:28. > :04:33.how much it would raise. We know the sum in the grand scheme of things
:04:34. > :04:40.isn't much, the bedroom tax was about sending a message. What we are
:04:41. > :04:44.going to see is George Osborne and Ed Balls lock as they try to push
:04:45. > :04:52.the other one into saying things that are unpopular. The Tories,
:04:53. > :04:54.the other one into saying things ?150,000 a year, that's exactly
:04:55. > :04:58.the other one into saying things where Ed Balls want them to be. All
:04:59. > :05:01.the other one into saying things three main parties have roughly the
:05:02. > :05:05.same plan, to run a current budget surplus by the end of the next
:05:06. > :05:10.Parliament. George Osborne said ?12 billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said
:05:11. > :05:15.how he is going to do it. Ed Balls is giving an idea that he is going
:05:16. > :05:19.to restore this 50 persons rate The contribution of that will be
:05:20. > :05:24.deminimus. It is not much, but what does it say about your values.
:05:25. > :05:29.Because it is that package, it is cleverer than people think. Where
:05:30. > :05:32.the challenge is is the question that Peter Mandelson posed at the
:05:33. > :05:37.last election, which is can the Labour Party win a general election
:05:38. > :05:40.if it doesn't have business on its side? That's the big challenge and
:05:41. > :05:45.that's the question looking difficult for them this morning
:05:46. > :05:50.Does it matter if Labour has business on its side. I thought the
:05:51. > :05:54.most fascinating thing about this announcement is it came from the guy
:05:55. > :05:59.mindful of business support, Ed Balls. When in opposition and when a
:06:00. > :06:05.Minister and as a shadow as a result, he's been far more conscious
:06:06. > :06:10.than Ed Miliband about the need not to alienate the CB Bill. In the
:06:11. > :06:14.run-up of an election. This is a measure of Ed Miliband's strength in
:06:15. > :06:19.the Labour Party, that his view of things can prevail so easily over a
:06:20. > :06:25.guy who for the last 15 years has taken a different view. Eight out of
:06:26. > :06:30.ten businesses according to the CBI don't want us to leave business
:06:31. > :06:35.Business is in a bit of a cleft stick. Ed Miliband would like to see
:06:36. > :06:38.businesses squealing, and Ed Balls is clearly not so comfortable on
:06:39. > :06:43.that one. There's a difference on that. Mind you, they were squealing
:06:44. > :06:47.this morning from Davos. They probably had hangovers as well. The
:06:48. > :06:52.other thing they would say is this is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p
:06:53. > :06:57.is the optimal rate forever, it what go eventually. Isn't that what
:06:58. > :07:01.politicians said when income tax was introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour
:07:02. > :07:07.regarded 40 persons as the rate where it would stay.
:07:08. > :07:12.It's been a bad week for the Lib Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one
:07:13. > :07:15.of the worst weeks yet for Nick Clegg and his party in recent
:07:16. > :07:17.memory, as they've gone from talking confidently about their role in
:07:18. > :07:20.Government to facing a storm of criticism over claims of
:07:21. > :07:23.inappropriate sexual behaviour by a Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a
:07:24. > :07:27.Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's Giles with the story of the week. A
:07:28. > :07:33.challenge to Nick Clegg's authority as he face as growing row over the
:07:34. > :07:37.Liberal Democrat... I want everyone to be treated with respect by the
:07:38. > :07:43.Liberal Democrats. We are expecting him to show moral leadership on our
:07:44. > :07:49.behalf. A good man has been publicly destroyed by the media with the
:07:50. > :07:53.apparent support of Nick Clegg. I would like Nick Clegg to show
:07:54. > :08:00.leadership and say, this has got to stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on
:08:01. > :08:06.Monday morning he knew he was in trouble, staring down the barrel of
:08:07. > :08:11.a stand justify with Lord Rennard over allegations that the peer had
:08:12. > :08:16.inappropriately touched a number of women. Chris Rennard thought he was
:08:17. > :08:20.cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more I said if he doesn't apologise, he
:08:21. > :08:25.should withdraw from the House of Lords. If he does that today, what
:08:26. > :08:32.do you do then? I hope he doesn t. I think no apology, no whip. 2014 was
:08:33. > :08:37.starting badly for the Liberal Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to
:08:38. > :08:43.apologise, saying you can't say sorry for something you haven't
:08:44. > :08:46.done. The and he was leaning towards legal action. Butch us friends
:08:47. > :08:50.better defending Pym and publicly. This is a good, decent man, who has
:08:51. > :08:55.been punished by the party, with the leadership of the party that seems
:08:56. > :09:01.to be showing scant regard for due process. But his accusers felt very
:09:02. > :09:06.differently. It is untenable for the Lib Dems to have a credible voice on
:09:07. > :09:10.qualities and women's issues in the future if Lord Rennard was allowed
:09:11. > :09:14.to be back on the Lib Dem benches in the House of Lords. Therein lay the
:09:15. > :09:18.problem that exposed the weaknesses the House of Lords. Therein lay the
:09:19. > :09:20.of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's the House of Lords. Therein lay the
:09:21. > :09:27.internal structures have all the simplicity of a circuit diagram for
:09:28. > :09:32.a supercomputer, exposing the complexity of who runs the Liberal
:09:33. > :09:36.Democrats? The simple question that arose of that was can the leader of
:09:37. > :09:42.the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer? The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem
:09:43. > :09:48.whips in the Lords could do it but if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed,
:09:49. > :09:51.they could overrule it. Some long-stand ng friends of roar
:09:52. > :09:56.Rennard think he is either the innocent victim of a media
:09:57. > :10:00.witch-hunt or at the least due process has been ridden over rough
:10:01. > :10:05.shot by the leadership. Nobody ever did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't
:10:06. > :10:09.turn up to the Lords, will citing ill health. But issued a statement
:10:10. > :10:13.that ruled out an apology. He refused to do so and refused to
:10:14. > :10:17.comply with the outcome of that report, so there was no alternative
:10:18. > :10:21.but for the party to suspend his membership today. On Wednesday Nick
:10:22. > :10:25.Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a crunch decision, but to discuss the
:10:26. > :10:29.extraordinary prospect of legal action against the party by the man
:10:30. > :10:33.long credited with building its success. The situation was making
:10:34. > :10:37.the party look like a joke. One Tory MP said to one of my colleagues this
:10:38. > :10:40.morning, the funny thing about the Liberal Democrats, you managed to
:10:41. > :10:44.create a whole sex scandal without any sex. And we can laugh at
:10:45. > :10:50.ourselves but actually it is rather serious. And it got more serious,
:10:51. > :10:54.when an MP who had resigned the Lib Dem whip last year was expanded from
:10:55. > :10:58.the party over a report into allegations of serious and unwelcome
:10:59. > :11:03.sexual behaviour towards a constituent. All of this leaves the
:11:04. > :11:08.Lib Dems desperately wishing these sagas had been dealt with long ago
:11:09. > :11:13.and would now go away. Nick Clegg ended the week still party leader.
:11:14. > :11:20.Lord Rennard, once one of their most powerful players, ended the week,
:11:21. > :11:23.for now, no longer even in it. Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous
:11:24. > :11:29.week. Now, as you doubtless already know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will
:11:30. > :11:34.vote to choose a new deputy leader. You didn't know that? You do now.
:11:35. > :11:38.The job of Nick Clegg's number two is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem
:11:39. > :11:41.voice, untainted by the demands of coalition Government. At this point
:11:42. > :11:44.in the show we had expected to speak to all three candidates for the
:11:45. > :11:52.post, held in recent years by party veterans like Vince Cable and Simon
:11:53. > :11:55.Hughes. We thought it being quite a significant week for the party, they
:11:56. > :12:01.might have something to say. And here they are. Well that's their
:12:02. > :12:05.pictures. For various reasons, all three are now unavailable. Malcolm
:12:06. > :12:09.Bruce, he's reckoned to be the outsider. His office said he had a
:12:10. > :12:12."family commitment". Gordon Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was
:12:13. > :12:15.booked to appear but then told us, "I was at an event last night with
:12:16. > :12:21.Lorely Burt" - she's one of the candidates - "and she told me it was
:12:22. > :12:25.off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen by many as the red hot favourite,
:12:26. > :12:28.told us: "Because of the Rennard thing we don't want to put ourselves
:12:29. > :12:40.in a position where we have to answer difficult questions." How
:12:41. > :12:44.refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad politically is all this for the Lib
:12:45. > :12:47.Dems? What I think is the tragic irony of the Lib Dems is they've
:12:48. > :12:52.been revealed as being too democratic. In the same way that
:12:53. > :12:57.their party conference embarrassed Nick Clegg by voting sings that he
:12:58. > :13:03.signed up to, and now everything has to be run past various
:13:04. > :13:15.sub-committees first. Is it democratic or chaotic? It is
:13:16. > :13:21.Byzantine. Mike Hancock was voluntarily suspended, and this week
:13:22. > :13:26.he was properly suspended. It was new information into the public
:13:27. > :13:33.domain that forced that. I'm already hearing Labour and Conservative
:13:34. > :13:36.Party musing that if it is a long Parliament, we will form a minority
:13:37. > :13:40.Government. It is a disaster for them. Voters like parties that
:13:41. > :13:42.reflect and are interested this their concerns. Parties that are
:13:43. > :13:47.self obsessed turn them off. The their concerns. Parties that are
:13:48. > :13:50.third party, if they carry on like this, they'll be the fifth party in
:13:51. > :13:54.the European elections, so they have got to draw a line under this. They
:13:55. > :14:00.do that, if they do, through mediation. As I understand it, Chris
:14:01. > :14:03.Rennard,s who has go devoted his entire life to the Liberal
:14:04. > :14:07.Democrats, and previously the Liberal Party, is keen to draw a
:14:08. > :14:12.line under this. He is up for mediation but he needs to know that
:14:13. > :14:16.the women that he has clearly invaded their personal space, that
:14:17. > :14:19.there wouldn't be a possible legal a action from them. The it is very
:14:20. > :14:23.difficult to see how you could resolve that. Except he is
:14:24. > :14:28.threatening through his friends these famous friends, to spill all
:14:29. > :14:32.the beans about all the party's sex secrets. Isn't the danger for the
:14:33. > :14:35.Lib Dems, this haunts them through to the European elections, where
:14:36. > :14:40.they'll get thumped in the European elections? They'll get destroyed in
:14:41. > :14:44.the European elections, which keeps it salient as a story over the
:14:45. > :14:49.summer. And it has implications for Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a
:14:50. > :14:53.good job until now, perhaps better than David Cameron, of exercising
:14:54. > :14:56.authority over his party. He had a good conference in September.
:14:57. > :14:59.Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems have looked like a party without a
:15:00. > :15:04.leader or a leadership structure. Part of that is down to the chaotic
:15:05. > :15:09.or Byzantine organisational structure of the party. Part of it
:15:10. > :15:16.is Nick Clegg's failure to assert himself and impose himself over
:15:17. > :15:21.events. Is it Byzantine or Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You
:15:22. > :15:32.don't get these words on the Today programme. The cost of living has
:15:33. > :15:35.been back on the agenda this week as Labour and the Tories argue over
:15:36. > :15:39.whether the value of money in your pocket is going up or down. Well
:15:40. > :15:42.there's one cost which has been racing ahead of inflation and that's
:15:43. > :15:45.the amount you have to pay to travel by train, by bus and by air. Rail
:15:46. > :15:48.commuters have been hard hit over the last four years, with the cost
:15:49. > :15:54.of the average season ticket going up by 18% since January 2010, while
:15:55. > :16:01.wages have gone up by just 3.6% over the same period. It means some rail
:16:02. > :16:05.users are paying high prices with commuters from Kent shelling out
:16:06. > :16:09.more than ?5,000 per year from the beginning of this month just to get
:16:10. > :16:15.to work in London. It doesn't compare well with our European
:16:16. > :16:23.counterparts. In the UK the average rail user spends 14% of their
:16:24. > :16:29.average income on trains. It is just 1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like
:16:30. > :16:32.season tickets went up 3.1% at the beginning of this month, and with
:16:33. > :16:37.ministers keen to make passengers fought more of the bills, there are
:16:38. > :16:49.more fare rises coming down the track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins
:16:50. > :16:54.me now for the Sunday Interview Welcome. You claim to be in the
:16:55. > :16:59.party of hard-working people, so why is it that since you came to power
:17:00. > :17:06.rail commuters have seen the cost of their average season ticket going up
:17:07. > :17:13.in money terms by over 18% while their pay has gone up in money terms
:17:14. > :17:19.by less than four? I would point out that this is the first year in ten
:17:20. > :17:23.years that we have not had an above inflation increase on fares. The
:17:24. > :17:32.Government accepts we have got to do as much as we can to help the
:17:33. > :17:38.passengers. A big inflation increase since 2010. This is the first year
:17:39. > :17:44.in ten years that it has not been above RPI, but we are also investing
:17:45. > :17:48.huge amounts of money into the railways, building new trains for
:17:49. > :17:54.the East Coast Main Line and the great Western. We are spending 500
:17:55. > :18:00.million at Birmingham station, this is all increasing capacity, so we
:18:01. > :18:06.are seeing investments. Over the next five years Network Rail will
:18:07. > :18:14.invest over ?38 billion in the network structure. We also have an
:18:15. > :18:18.expensive railway and it is ordinary people paying for it. A season
:18:19. > :18:24.ticket from Woking in Surrey, commuter belt land in London, let's
:18:25. > :18:30.look at the figures. This is a distance of over 25 miles, it cost
:18:31. > :18:37.over ?3000 per year. We have picked similar distances to international
:18:38. > :18:52.cities. The British commuter is being ripped
:18:53. > :18:57.off. The British commuter is seeing record levels of investment in our
:18:58. > :19:01.railways. The investment has to be paid for. We are investing huge
:19:02. > :19:08.amounts of money and I don't know whether the figures you have got
:19:09. > :19:23.here... I'm sure they are likewise, as you have managed to do... White
:19:24. > :19:31.-- ten times more than the Italian equivalent. We have seen
:19:32. > :19:35.transformational changes in our railway services and we need to
:19:36. > :19:41.carry on investing. We were paying these prices even before you started
:19:42. > :19:50.investing. We have always paid a lot more to commute in this country than
:19:51. > :19:59.our European equivalents. I'm not quite sure I want to take on Italy
:20:00. > :20:04.is a great example. You would if you were a commuter. You
:20:05. > :20:06.is a great example. You would if you the other rates of taxation has to
:20:07. > :20:12.be paid as well. Isn't it the case they are making profits out of these
:20:13. > :20:18.figures and using them to subsidise cheaper fares back in their
:20:19. > :20:24.homeland? The overall profit margin train companies make is 3%, a
:20:25. > :20:26.reasonable amount, and we have seen a revolution as far as the railway
:20:27. > :20:32.industry is concerned. a revolution as far as the railway
:20:33. > :20:41.20 years we have seen passenger journeys going from 750 million to
:20:42. > :20:45.1.5 billion. That is a massive revolution in rail. Let me look
:20:46. > :20:46.1.5 billion. That is a massive spokesperson for the German
:20:47. > :21:00.government, the Ministry of transport.
:21:01. > :21:06.They are charging huge fares in Britain to take that money back to
:21:07. > :21:11.subsidise fares in Germany. What do you say to that? We are seeing
:21:12. > :21:17.British companies winning contracts in Germany. The National Express are
:21:18. > :21:21.winning contracts to the railways. What about the ordinary commuter?
:21:22. > :21:26.They are paying through the nose so German commuters can travel more
:21:27. > :21:32.cheaply. We are still subsidising the railways in this country, but
:21:33. > :21:37.overall we want to reduce the subsidy we are giving. We are still
:21:38. > :21:43.seeing growth in our railways and I want to see more people using them.
:21:44. > :21:50.Why do you increase rail fares at the higher RPI measure than the
:21:51. > :21:56.lower CPI measurement? That is what has always been done, and we have
:21:57. > :22:02.stopped. This is the first time in ten years that we have not raised
:22:03. > :22:09.the rail figures above RPI. You still link fares to RPI. You use the
:22:10. > :22:16.lower CPI figure when it suits you, to keep pension payments down for
:22:17. > :22:21.example, but the higher one when it comes to increasing rail fares. We
:22:22. > :22:24.are still putting a huge subsidy into the rail industry, there is
:22:25. > :22:30.still a huge amount of money going from the taxpayer to support the
:22:31. > :22:34.rail industry. I am not asking you about that, I am asking you
:22:35. > :22:41.rail industry. I am not asking you link the figures to the higher RPI
:22:42. > :22:47.vesture Mark if we are going to pay for the levels of investment, so all
:22:48. > :22:52.the new trains being built at Newton Aycliffe for the East Coast Main
:22:53. > :22:56.Line and the great Western, ?3. billion of investment, new rolling
:22:57. > :23:00.stock coming online, then yes, we have to pay for it, and it is a
:23:01. > :23:14.question of the taxpayer paying for it all the -- or the passenger.
:23:15. > :23:17.You have capped parking fines until the next election, rail commuters we
:23:18. > :23:27.have seen the cost of their ticket has gone up by nearly 20%, you are
:23:28. > :23:34.the party of the drivers, not the passengers, aren't you?
:23:35. > :23:48.We are trying to help everybody who has been struggling. I think we are
:23:49. > :23:53.setting out long-term plans for our railways, investing heavily in them
:23:54. > :23:58.and it is getting that balance right. But you have done more for
:23:59. > :24:05.the driver than you have for the user of public transport. I don t
:24:06. > :24:11.accept that. They are paying the same petrol prices as 2011. This is
:24:12. > :24:18.the first time in ten years that there has not been an RPI plus
:24:19. > :24:25.rise. We are investing record amounts. Bus fares are also rising,
:24:26. > :24:31.4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a time when real take-home pay has
:24:32. > :24:37.been falling. This hits commuters particularly workers who use buses
:24:38. > :24:41.on low incomes, another cost of living squeeze. I was with
:24:42. > :24:55.Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday, and I saw a bus company investing in
:24:56. > :25:01.new buses. Last week First ordered new buses. Part of your hard-working
:25:02. > :25:08.families you are always on about, they are the ones going to work
:25:09. > :25:11.early in the morning, and yet you are making them pay more for their
:25:12. > :25:18.buses in real terms than they did before. They would be happier if
:25:19. > :25:24.they could travel more cheaply. It is about getting investment in
:25:25. > :25:32.services, it has to be paid for Why not run the old buses for five more
:25:33. > :25:36.years? Because then there is more pollution in the atmosphere, modern
:25:37. > :25:40.buses have lower emissions, and we are still giving huge support
:25:41. > :25:44.overall to the bus industry and that is very important because I fully
:25:45. > :25:53.accept that the number of people, yes, use the train but a lot of
:25:54. > :25:59.people use buses as well. High-speed two, it has been delayed because 877
:26:00. > :26:06.pages of key evidence from your department were left on a computer
:26:07. > :26:09.memory stick, part of the submission to environmental consultation. Your
:26:10. > :26:17.department's economic case is now widely regarded as a joke, now you
:26:18. > :26:23.do this. Is your department fit for purpose? Yes, and as far as what
:26:24. > :26:26.happened with the memory stick, it is an acceptable and shouldn't have
:26:27. > :26:32.happened, and therefore we have extended the time. There has been an
:26:33. > :26:42.extension in the time for people to make representation, the bill for
:26:43. > :26:45.this goes through Parliament in a different way to a normal bill. It
:26:46. > :26:56.is vital HS2 provides what we want. different way to a normal bill. It
:26:57. > :27:00.What I am very pleased about is different way to a normal bill. It
:27:01. > :27:05.the paving bill was passed by Parliament just a few months ago,
:27:06. > :27:11.there was overwhelming support, and I kept reading there was going to be
:27:12. > :27:15.70 people voting against it, in the end 30 people voted against it and
:27:16. > :27:20.there was a good majority in the House of Commons. So can you give a
:27:21. > :27:28.guarantee that this legislation will get onto the statute books? I will
:27:29. > :27:32.do all I can. I cannot tell you the exact Parliamentary time scale. The
:27:33. > :27:40.bill will have started its progress through the House of Commons by
:27:41. > :27:46.2015, and it may well have concluded. The new chairman of HS2
:27:47. > :27:57.said he can bring the cost of the line substantially under the budget,
:27:58. > :28:03.do you agree with that? The figure is ?42 billion with a large
:28:04. > :28:07.contingency, and David Higgins, as chairman of HS2, is looking at the
:28:08. > :28:12.whole cast and seeing if there are ways in which it can be built
:28:13. > :28:17.faster. At the moment across London we are building Crossrail, ?14.
:28:18. > :28:24.billion investment. There was a report last week saying what an
:28:25. > :28:30.excellent job has been done. Crossrail started under Labour.
:28:31. > :28:38.Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in the 1990 party conference. You may
:28:39. > :28:44.get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay people so much, why is the
:28:45. > :28:54.nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on ?600,000? And the new chief
:28:55. > :28:57.executive on ?750,000. These are very big projects and we need to
:28:58. > :29:02.attract the best people become so we are going for the best engineers in
:29:03. > :29:05.the world to engineer this project. It is a large salary, there is no
:29:06. > :29:09.question about it, but I'm rather It is a large salary, there is no
:29:10. > :29:14.pleased that engineers rather than bankers can be seen to get big
:29:15. > :29:18.rewards for delivering what will be very important pieces of national
:29:19. > :29:25.infrastructure. I didn't have time to ask you about your passenger duty
:29:26. > :29:28.so perhaps another time. We are about to speak to Nigel Mills and
:29:29. > :29:32.all of these MPs on your side who are rebelling against the
:29:33. > :29:36.Government, how would you handle them? We have got to listen to what
:29:37. > :29:43.our colleagues are talking about and try to respond it. Would you take
:29:44. > :29:52.them for a long walk off a short pier? I'm sure I would have many
:29:53. > :30:01.conversations with them. An immigration bill to tack the
:30:02. > :30:07.immigration into the UK. When limits on migration from Bulgaria and
:30:08. > :30:11.Romania were lifted this year there were warnings of a large influx of
:30:12. > :30:17.migrant workerses from the two new European countries. So far it's been
:30:18. > :30:22.more of a dribble than a flood. Who can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz
:30:23. > :30:26.greeting a handful of arrivals at Luton Airport. But it is early days
:30:27. > :30:30.and it is one of the reasons the Government's introduced a new
:30:31. > :30:35.Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister is facing rebellion from
:30:36. > :30:41.backbenchers who want tougher action on immigration from abroad. Nigel
:30:42. > :30:52.Mills would reimpose restrictions on how many Romanians and Bulgarians
:30:53. > :30:56.can come here. Joining me is Nigel Mills, Conservative MP behind the
:30:57. > :31:04.amendment and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there
:31:05. > :31:08.hasn't been an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians. Why do you want to
:31:09. > :31:13.restore these, kick these transitional controls way forward to
:31:14. > :31:16.2019? I don't think any of us were expecting a rush on January 1st
:31:17. > :31:22.Andrew. I think we were talking about a range of 250,000 to 350 000
:31:23. > :31:28.people over five years. That's obviously a large amount of people,
:31:29. > :31:32.especially when you think net migration to the UK was well in
:31:33. > :31:37.excess of the Government's target of tens of thousands last year. The
:31:38. > :31:43.real concern is that it would be ever increasing our population,
:31:44. > :31:47.attracting lots of low-skilled, low-wage people, which keeps our
:31:48. > :31:52.people out of work and wages down. Did you accept that if you were to
:31:53. > :31:56.accept this, it would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome, the founding
:31:57. > :32:01.principle of the European Union We were trying to keep the restrictions
:32:02. > :32:05.that Bulgaria and Romania accepted for their first seven years of EU
:32:06. > :32:10.membership, on the basis that when we signed the treaty we weren't
:32:11. > :32:13.aware that we would have a huge and catastrophic recession we are still
:32:14. > :32:18.recovering from. But you would be in breach of the law, correct? The UK
:32:19. > :32:23.Parliament has a right to say we signed this deal before the terrible
:32:24. > :32:27.recession, and we need a bit longer in our national interest. It is
:32:28. > :32:36.worth noting that Bulgaria and Romania haven't met all their
:32:37. > :32:38.accession requirements. The Bulgarian requirement passed a
:32:39. > :32:43.law... So if they break the law it is alright for us to break the law?
:32:44. > :32:51.Is we should be focusing on trying to get 2. 4 million of our own in
:32:52. > :32:55.work, and 1 million people not in work... Let me bring in Diane
:32:56. > :33:00.Abbott. Will you vote for this amendment and why? It is in breach
:33:01. > :33:04.of the treaty. While I deplore MPs that try to cause trouble, these MPs
:33:05. > :33:09.have been particularly mindless because what they want to do
:33:10. > :33:14.wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say
:33:15. > :33:22.so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be
:33:23. > :33:26.going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.
:33:27. > :33:29.They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed
:33:30. > :33:35.to be debating before Christmas As we speak they've not cut a deal so
:33:36. > :33:41.it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I
:33:42. > :33:45.think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount
:33:46. > :33:50.of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to
:33:51. > :33:53.achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get
:33:54. > :33:58.free movement. I think the debate is moving in the right direction, but I
:33:59. > :34:01.think those people who are trapped out of work and desperately looking
:34:02. > :34:07.for work want something to be done now and not wait a few more years
:34:08. > :34:12.while we have more assessments Andrews. People are worried about
:34:13. > :34:17.the level of immigration. They I it is too high. That's the consensus in
:34:18. > :34:21.the country. We spoke to to migration centre in Hackney and they
:34:22. > :34:26.said they are struggling to cope with the number of people using
:34:27. > :34:30.their services. These are people with problems with the law. In the
:34:31. > :34:34.past years EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation than they
:34:35. > :34:40.take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement, which is agitating
:34:41. > :34:44.Nige em, that horse has bolted. We signed a treaty. There is nothing
:34:45. > :34:49.people like Nigel Mills can do, unless they want to rip their party
:34:50. > :34:54.apart, God forbid. Will you go as far as to rip your party apart,
:34:55. > :34:59.Nigel Mills? Are you going to take this all the way? Would you rather
:35:00. > :35:04.see this bill go down than your amendment not be accepted? This is a
:35:05. > :35:09.very important bill. I think we all want to see measures on the statute
:35:10. > :35:13.book, so the last thing we want to see is this bill go down. We do need
:35:14. > :35:17.to set out clearly that we have real concerns about the level of EU
:35:18. > :35:25.migration and something needs to be done. Would you rather have the bill
:35:26. > :35:30.without your amendment or no bill at all? I am hoping we can have the
:35:31. > :35:35.bill with the amendment. I know that, but if you can't? Is that will
:35:36. > :35:42.depend on what the Labour Party decide to do. They are talking
:35:43. > :35:46.tougher on immigration but will they take action on it? Your party has
:35:47. > :35:50.been talking tough on immigration but I will be surprised if an Ed
:35:51. > :35:55.Miliband Labour Party would vote for egg in direct cameravention of the
:35:56. > :36:02.Treaty of Rome. It would make no sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for
:36:03. > :36:06.the impossible. If I was a Tory I would be wringing high hands. He
:36:07. > :36:12.hasn't ruled out crashing the bill. That's incredible. Where will this
:36:13. > :36:17.end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a vote on Thursday. There's a lot of
:36:18. > :36:21.amendments people can use to show their concern about migration. We
:36:22. > :36:26.want limited and proportionate action, and that's what I am
:36:27. > :36:29.proposing. I want to see the bill on the statute book, I want the
:36:30. > :36:35.restrictions on people who shouldn't be here getting bank accounts and
:36:36. > :36:40.driving licences. I don't want to crash this bill but there's more
:36:41. > :36:47.measures we need in it. Nigel Mills thank you. You are going to be -
:36:48. > :36:53.popping up I think on the Sunday Politics East Midlands. Diane
:36:54. > :36:57.Abbott, thank you as well. We're in for more heavy rain and
:36:58. > :36:59.high winds across the UK today. You may remember that one UKIP
:37:00. > :37:02.councillor - he's since been suspended - caused controversy last
:37:03. > :37:05.weekend by blaming the recent flooding on the legalisation of gay
:37:06. > :37:08.marriage. Why didn't I think of that? So who better than this man to
:37:09. > :37:10.bring you the unofficial forecast. I'll be bringing you the late least
:37:11. > :37:20.UKIP weather from your area. You're watching Sunday Politics
:37:21. > :37:22.Also coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be looking at the week
:37:23. > :37:36.ahead with our political panel. Hello, and welcome to the part of
:37:37. > :37:40.the programme just for us here in the East. I'm Etholle George. Coming
:37:41. > :37:47.up: Fighting for his political life, South Suffolk MP Tim Yeo's struggle
:37:48. > :37:51.for re`selection. How much do you need to get by? The
:37:52. > :38:00.councils increasing wages for full time workers who aren't earning
:38:01. > :38:05.enough to live on. Some days I have to go to my dad's and have dinner at
:38:06. > :38:09.there. I can't afford heating sometimes, it is so expensive.
:38:10. > :38:12.And they were told they would get jobs when their Remploy factory
:38:13. > :38:19.closed. We see how the promises panned out. I spend my day looking
:38:20. > :38:23.in shop windows looking for jobs, going online and looking for jobs.
:38:24. > :38:26.But first, let's meet our guests, Iain Stewart, the Conservative MP
:38:27. > :38:30.for Milton Keynes South, and the Lib Dem Mayor of Bedford, Dave Hodgson.
:38:31. > :38:33.Let's start with the war of words that's broken out this week between
:38:34. > :38:37.Suffolk MP Tim Yeo and members of his local party. They have been
:38:38. > :38:47.explaining why they decided to drop him as their candidate for 2015. In
:38:48. > :38:52.the early stages when it was a new constituency, he was a good local
:38:53. > :38:56.connect it MP. There was the odd scandal which was glossed over and
:38:57. > :39:04.moved ahead with because generally he did a good job. Recently we have
:39:05. > :39:07.seen little of him in the village or elsewhere and the criticisms comes
:39:08. > :39:12.to me from other party members that they just don't see him, they don't
:39:13. > :39:18.see him connected with what is going on in the constituency. The MP, who
:39:19. > :39:24.has demanded a ballot of members, is fighting back. I look forward to the
:39:25. > :39:27.results eagerly. AM happy to be judged on my record of what I have
:39:28. > :39:32.done in Suffolk and Westminster for the Conservative Party and I am
:39:33. > :39:38.confident that if people look to my record they will reach the verdict I
:39:39. > :39:42.hope it will reach to reselect me. The ballot papers went out this
:39:43. > :39:51.week. Iain Stewart, it is not an ideal situation. Tim is a revalued
:39:52. > :39:54.and senior colleague. He brings a huge and mode of experience to
:39:55. > :40:00.Parliament, especially in the climate change is sector. That said,
:40:01. > :40:07.it makes the party look disunited, doesn't it? We have a democratic
:40:08. > :40:11.structure in the party. All MPs have to go through a reselection
:40:12. > :40:16.procedure and it is up to the Association to decide if they will
:40:17. > :40:21.be adopted as a member or not. I had to go through it. I cannot comment
:40:22. > :40:26.on what is happening in that constituency some distance from mind
:40:27. > :40:31.that we all have to do it. Is there a way around these rows? The same
:40:32. > :40:39.thing could happen in the Lib Dems, couldn't it? When I was reselected,
:40:40. > :40:45.it is a ballot of all members. Members if they cannot make it or
:40:46. > :40:49.offered a postal ballot, so that the party's position. Should the rules
:40:50. > :40:57.be changed to avoid this kind of confrontation? No, I think it is
:40:58. > :41:01.right. All MPs or candidates are adopted by their local association,
:41:02. > :41:06.so they can be adopted by them. We have a structure that a sitting
:41:07. > :41:12.member who wants to be re`. Did, first there is a vote of the
:41:13. > :41:18.executive of the local association to adopt or not, but then sitting
:41:19. > :41:26.members have a right of appeal. Who would you give the last word to? The
:41:27. > :41:30.party members, and I think it is right for them to have the say.
:41:31. > :41:34.Thank you for the moment. Now, how much is enough to live on?
:41:35. > :41:38.While George Osborne has now changed his tune to back an increase for the
:41:39. > :41:41.minimum wage next year, some of our councils are determined to pay the
:41:42. > :41:44.higher "living" wage to help their low`paid workers get by. For workers
:41:45. > :41:51.from Bedford Council, the change can't come soon enough. Deborah
:41:52. > :41:59.McGurran reports. I can't afford to get my teeth done. I can't get my
:42:00. > :42:04.eyes tested. I pay council tax and rolls up and that's why I have to do
:42:05. > :42:10.the Ares I can. Mike has been a car park attendant for two years. He
:42:11. > :42:15.earned ?7 55 and are for a 40 hour week. With a take`home pay at around
:42:16. > :42:21.?300, he doesn't consider it a living wage. Do you feel your living
:42:22. > :42:25.hand to mouth? Some days I have to go to my dad's and have dinner
:42:26. > :42:30.there. I cannot afford heating sometimes, I have to quilt covers
:42:31. > :42:39.over my bed to keep warm at night. It is very hard. Soon all this is
:42:40. > :42:43.set to change because his employer, Bedford Council, is to introduce a
:42:44. > :42:53.living wage. It will mean an extra ?40 a week, welcome news for Mike.
:42:54. > :42:56.42 quid a week, that would be nice. Here in Bedford Borough there are
:42:57. > :43:03.plans to introduce a living wage for all staff, more than 200 lower paid
:43:04. > :43:08.council workers will receive ?7 65 and are instead of the minimum wage
:43:09. > :43:14.of ?6 31. That means those on a minimum wage earning only ?12,000 a
:43:15. > :43:20.year would receive a boost of ?14,000, with the introduction of
:43:21. > :43:23.the living wage. The increase will help reduce the risk for working
:43:24. > :43:28.people to supplement their wages with benefits. A lot of people on
:43:29. > :43:33.minimum wage are getting working benefits, so when they go on to the
:43:34. > :43:41.living wage, they get more money in their pockets from working. I think
:43:42. > :43:45.that is very positive. Funding for the Council's 216 lowest paid staff
:43:46. > :43:52.will be met through back office and efficiency savings. When we did the
:43:53. > :44:01.sums in terms of what it would cost, we were pleasantly surprised that it
:44:02. > :44:06.could be much larger and it seemed like the right thing to do. When you
:44:07. > :44:11.look at the right `` the type of savings we are having to make, to
:44:12. > :44:20.give people the correct weight they can live on. The council hopes firms
:44:21. > :44:24.in Bedford will follow their lead. I think any businessman of any worth
:44:25. > :44:29.wants to pay his staff a good weight `` a good wage for a quality of
:44:30. > :44:35.life, and when many of the small businesses, in the retail sector
:44:36. > :44:41.particularly, when you consider the number of hours dear putting in,
:44:42. > :44:46.they are barely making minimum wage. A full`time job for a fair day's pay
:44:47. > :44:50.will mean a good deal for Mike, and for him and others like him, the
:44:51. > :44:54.April start date cannot come soon enough. Workers in Cambridgeshire
:44:55. > :45:02.are not so lucky, though. Joining us now is the Conservative leader of
:45:03. > :45:09.the County Council, Martin Curtis. It's not happening in Cambridge. Why
:45:10. > :45:13.not? First we respect the fact that local government is what it is,
:45:14. > :45:18.local, and different councils have to make decisions that are right for
:45:19. > :45:24.them. For us implementing the living wage would cost 800 thousand pounds
:45:25. > :45:28.a year, and if we did that well having to make ?38 million of
:45:29. > :45:32.savings it would increase the number of redundancies. The fact that
:45:33. > :45:36.figure is so large would seem to point out there are too many people
:45:37. > :45:42.working for you who are not being paid enough. We are a big
:45:43. > :45:47.organisation. A number of our employees are people working in the
:45:48. > :45:52.catering sector or cleaning sector, where traditionally they have been
:45:53. > :45:57.there were wage. Our drive as a County Council is to push forward on
:45:58. > :46:02.our economy. That will mean reducing inflation, sorry, reducing
:46:03. > :46:07.unemployment, and creating some of that demand for employment. We think
:46:08. > :46:11.wages overall will increase in Cambridgeshire, including reducing
:46:12. > :46:18.the number of people on minimum wage, so we would prefer to do what
:46:19. > :46:22.we're trying to do, to raise overall standards and overall wages in the
:46:23. > :46:28.county. FA council can't afford to pay a living wage, what hope is
:46:29. > :46:35.there for other employers? There is hope, but other organisations are
:46:36. > :46:38.not in that situation we are in. We have one of the biggest savings
:46:39. > :46:44.targets across the country over the next 45 years, and so we're in a
:46:45. > :46:49.situation where if we add another ?800,000 to the bill, it means less
:46:50. > :46:55.jobs. We prefer to drive the economy forward. What is different now,
:46:56. > :46:58.because the Conservatives are getting a better control on
:46:59. > :47:02.immigration, we don't have immigration being used as a tool to
:47:03. > :47:06.keep wages down which the Labour government did, so we will have less
:47:07. > :47:17.people in Cambridge paid the minimum wage. We saw in the film how hard it
:47:18. > :47:23.was poor people. Dave Hodgson can do it in Bedford, so why not in
:47:24. > :47:26.Cambridge? I suspect the implications for Bedford are much
:47:27. > :47:31.smaller than they are in Cambridgeshire, so that is one
:47:32. > :47:36.issue. One thing that is important is what the Conservatives are doing
:47:37. > :47:39.to drive up the minimum wage, putting representation to increase
:47:40. > :47:43.the minimum wage. I think that is the right thing to do. Let's find
:47:44. > :47:50.out how they are doing it in Bedford. There are just over 200
:47:51. > :47:55.people who would be entitled to delivering wage, and we thought
:47:56. > :48:00.76,000 was right. It depends how many people you have working for
:48:01. > :48:05.you. I do having to make cuts elsewhere? There would be an irony
:48:06. > :48:10.if you were making people redundant some work to give other people more
:48:11. > :48:15.money. We are having to make people redundant, we have doubled in my
:48:16. > :48:19.time on a much smaller council, but in terms of what they are delivering
:48:20. > :48:24.for us and the commitment they are making to Bedford Borough, it is
:48:25. > :48:29.important we recognise that. Overall this means a number of people would
:48:30. > :48:36.be claiming other benefits. Iain Stewart, Labour authorities are
:48:37. > :48:41.doing this as well, Ipswich, Harlow, Stevenage, Norwich, who are also
:48:42. > :48:45.paying the living wage. Why don't more Tory authorities do the same,
:48:46. > :48:50.because that could reduce the benefit Bill? Based on the
:48:51. > :48:59.discussion now, each local authority is laid different situation. In my
:49:00. > :49:03.own authority, Milton Keynes, the majority of employees are already
:49:04. > :49:09.above the minimum wage, so each area has to decide for itself. From a
:49:10. > :49:13.central government perspective, and this is what the coalition has
:49:14. > :49:17.delivered, by raising virginal allowance by a significant amount of
:49:18. > :49:22.money, you give the maximum benefit to people on the lowest wages. Those
:49:23. > :49:27.figures have come up just this week and the Tories say there is more
:49:28. > :49:35.take`home pay but people have now than previously, so perhaps you have
:49:36. > :49:40.jumped the gun. The number of staff in Milton Keynes and above the
:49:41. > :49:45.minimum wage, but we had a significant number of beanie that
:49:46. > :49:50.living wage and that is important to recognise they need to be able to
:49:51. > :49:55.afford to heat their homes. So you haven't jumped the gun because wages
:49:56. > :50:00.are on the up anyway? No. The figures we saw released last week do
:50:01. > :50:06.not take account of all things. There were figures until April 2013
:50:07. > :50:12.giving things improving but a people have not seen an increase. George
:50:13. > :50:17.Osborne says he is calling for a significant rise in the minimum
:50:18. > :50:21.wage, and I quote, to "make sure that we have a recovery for all and
:50:22. > :50:26.that work pays". So will you be pushing for a living wage in Milton
:50:27. > :50:30.Keynes? The most important thing is with the minimum wage, set by the
:50:31. > :50:37.low pay commission, to be set at a level where it is a sickly minimum
:50:38. > :50:43.wage but not such a high level that it starts costing jobs. What
:50:44. > :50:47.happened since 2008, the real terms value of the wage has slipped back.
:50:48. > :50:53.Now the recovery is starting to take hold, I think it is appropriate to
:50:54. > :50:58.look at an above inflation increase. I am sympathetic to that but if you
:50:59. > :51:02.want to go above the minimum wage that has to be in addition for each
:51:03. > :51:08.local area to take account of all the local circumstances. What might
:51:09. > :51:12.be appropriate in Bedford may not be as appropriate in Cambridge. Martin
:51:13. > :51:19.Curtis, are you persuaded by your cancer, a recovery for all?
:51:20. > :51:24.Absolutely. Our big drive in Cambridge is about an economic
:51:25. > :51:31.recovery and driving our economy forward `` Chancellor. Cambridge has
:51:32. > :51:35.already played a major part in leading the country out of recession
:51:36. > :51:40.and the city deal around the Cambridge area will benefit our
:51:41. > :51:45.whole time `` or whole county. We know it will increase demand for
:51:46. > :51:49.work and wages. Thank you for joining us.
:51:50. > :51:52.Now, you might remember that last summer, after years of uncertainty,
:51:53. > :51:55.the Remploy factory for disabled workers in Norwich closed for good.
:51:56. > :51:58.The government said that it was an opportunity to support Remploy
:51:59. > :52:01.factory employees into new work. Maria Veronese reports on whether
:52:02. > :52:11.that dream of new jobs has come true. Harvey has been searching for
:52:12. > :52:15.work since the factory closed in Norwich. He worked in the cardboard
:52:16. > :52:21.packaging factory as a forklift driver. Of the 26 disabled
:52:22. > :52:28.employees, who worked on the factory floor, only one has phoned part`time
:52:29. > :52:34.cleaning work. Just six of the 24 ad men and sales that have both jobs. I
:52:35. > :52:41.spent my day living in Chop windows for jobs, going online to find
:52:42. > :52:49.jobs. I e`mail firms but no one seems to be interested. Like Harvey,
:52:50. > :52:55.Susan is still jobless. She has autism and says employers aren't
:52:56. > :53:02.interested in taking her on. I do to think when I worked there that I
:53:03. > :53:07.would be there until I was retired, but when it was under threat in
:53:08. > :53:16.2011, I could see it happen and now it has happened. My worst fears are
:53:17. > :53:22.realised. They said they would get jobs for the disabled people. How we
:53:23. > :53:27.got jobs? No. What of those promises? This is what the
:53:28. > :53:31.government said in 2012. The important thing is for anyone
:53:32. > :53:37.affected by this little here is to make sure the budget we are using to
:53:38. > :53:44.support more disabled people is a chance to support more Remploy
:53:45. > :53:49.employees into new work. I have heard that the money provided to
:53:50. > :53:55.help support those workers into new jobs is in some cases being used to
:53:56. > :53:59.pay contracting companies and organisations to provide them with
:54:00. > :54:06.mentoring and skills support. It is not necessarily achieving anything
:54:07. > :54:10.in terms of new work. The Gideon representing Remploy's former
:54:11. > :54:17.employees believes money is the basis for the decision to close the
:54:18. > :54:22.site. We think Remploy is valued at ?54 million. If you reported that
:54:23. > :54:31.across factories have closed, it is in the significant money owned by
:54:32. > :54:38.DWP. Anyone hiring just want to take on the best. What do you think your
:54:39. > :54:41.chances are now? Unless there are employees `` employers who want to
:54:42. > :54:46.give disabled people a fair chance, they could do worse than give us a
:54:47. > :54:50.chance. We asked the Minister for Disabled
:54:51. > :54:53.People, Mike Penning, to speak to us about the government scheme to find
:54:54. > :54:56.former Remploy workers jobs. Unfortunately he wasn't available
:54:57. > :55:26.but we have this statement from the Department for Work and Pensions.
:55:27. > :55:30.The government was aiming for jobs for 70% of former Remploy workers.
:55:31. > :55:34.The government was aiming for jobs for Even the best figure for Norwich
:55:35. > :55:39.comes in at 14% which is nowhere near. The scheme is not working, is
:55:40. > :55:47.it? If you look at figures nationally, that target has been
:55:48. > :55:53.achieved. I understand the Norwich closure happened many `` later than
:55:54. > :55:57.many others and the package of support runs for 18 months, so it is
:55:58. > :56:01.premature to judge the success or failure of the scheme. One of the
:56:02. > :56:09.very particle schemes that have been put in place is called Access to
:56:10. > :56:13.work. If there is a small business that could take a disabled person on
:56:14. > :56:18.and they would have to make some adjustments to the work station or
:56:19. > :56:21.whatever it is, the small business would not have to meet the cost.
:56:22. > :56:28.That would be taken by the government. Dave Hodgson, is it
:56:29. > :56:33.realistic that these workers can get jobs in mainstream workplaces? We
:56:34. > :56:39.heard in the film they don't feel they can compete. In Bedford we
:56:40. > :56:45.don't have a Remploy factory. We want to get disabled people into
:56:46. > :56:49.work and are working with disability groups to try to help some disabled
:56:50. > :56:58.people get into employment, so we didn't have Remploy factories, and
:56:59. > :57:01.in terms of individuals in Norwich, every individual who doesn't have a
:57:02. > :57:04.job is a bad new story. We need to help them. They've effectively been
:57:05. > :57:11.thrown on the scrap heap, haven't they? If you will forgive me, my
:57:12. > :57:16.seat is not close to Norwich so I cannot comment on details there. We
:57:17. > :57:22.did not have an Remploy factory in Milton Keynes but I can point to
:57:23. > :57:26.some excellent organisations. There is a wonderful charity that takes on
:57:27. > :57:32.people with disabilities and they get contracts with local employers
:57:33. > :57:39.to make goods or various services and the people do that in a very
:57:40. > :57:45.modern supported environment, so there is a lot of support there for
:57:46. > :57:48.people with disabilities. Thank you. Eyes down for this week's political
:57:49. > :57:51.round`up, when the MP for Harlow played caller for the bingo
:57:52. > :58:01.industry. Here's Andrew Sinclair with 60Seconds.
:58:02. > :58:05.In the south`east Cambridgeshire Conservative Association, the row
:58:06. > :58:12.over the election won't go away. To members have not resigned. We have
:58:13. > :58:19.ten to need to compound that by trying to justify the decision which
:58:20. > :58:25.is not tenable. Harlow's Robert Halfon had do as Ingo calling but
:58:26. > :58:31.he'd used Prime Minister's questions to raise another issue. Energy
:58:32. > :58:36.companies are charging ?115 extra for people who don't pay by direct
:58:37. > :58:43.debit. But the Environment Agency warned it may not be worth repairing
:58:44. > :58:47.damaged sea defences. To reinstate those defences and then allow a
:58:48. > :58:56.freshwater habitat to re`establish, or do we allow a hide that a tidal
:58:57. > :59:02.habitat to re`establish? The new UK trade envoy, and they do look for
:59:03. > :59:08.Bedford means at last be getting rid of their ugly town Hall.
:59:09. > :59:16.Are you glad to see Bedford's town Hall go? Yes, we have a brand`new
:59:17. > :59:21.publics or their and the new development. It is good news, and
:59:22. > :59:29.the bus station is coming down on the same day. We understand much of
:59:30. > :59:34.the material is being recycled. Yes, there has already been about ?100 of
:59:35. > :59:37.stuff taken out to be recycled. Robert Halfon, apart from
:59:38. > :59:39.campaigning to reduce bingo tax, is also, as we heard, pressing for
:59:40. > :59:44.energy companies to stop penalising those who don't use direct debits.
:59:45. > :59:51.It's not a fairer system at the moment. It has raised an important
:59:52. > :59:55.issue. It is one thing for any company to offer people an incentive
:59:56. > :00:00.to pave complaints or pay by direct debit. My gas company, if I pay my
:00:01. > :00:05.bills straightaway I get a small discount from the next one. That is
:00:06. > :00:09.fine but a good number of them seem to be levying severe penalties for
:00:10. > :00:12.people who are not paying by direct debit and I think that is an
:00:13. > :00:17.important issue we need to look into. We have to leave it there.
:00:18. > :00:22.Iain Stewart and Dave Hodgson, thank you. That's all for now. You can
:00:23. > :00:26.keep in touch via our website, where you will also find links to Deborah
:00:27. > :00:28.McGurran's blog for all the latest political updates. We're back at the
:00:29. > :00:29.same time political updates. We're back at the
:00:30. > :00:43.constituency, very pleased. Andrew, back to you.
:00:44. > :00:46.UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never far away from controversy, but this
:00:47. > :00:49.week he's been outdoing himself He was hit over the head with a placard
:00:50. > :00:52.by a protester in Kent, provoked outrage by saying women with
:00:53. > :00:59.children are worth less to city firms, and said the ban on owning
:01:00. > :01:02.handguns was 'crackers'. He also seemed less than sure of his party's
:01:03. > :01:06.own policies when I interviewed him on the Daily Politics. And the story
:01:07. > :01:11.that got everyone talking was the suggestion by a UKIP councillor that
:01:12. > :01:15.flooding is linked to gay marriage. We'll talk about all of that in a
:01:16. > :01:23.moment, but first, over to Nigel with the weather. Weather for all
:01:24. > :01:27.areas of the British Isles but definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land."
:01:28. > :01:33.You may have heard about a storm in a tea cup developed when you kip
:01:34. > :01:39.councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the floods on the gay marriage Bill The
:01:40. > :01:44.old party is focusing on the view of UKIP members like him, even though
:01:45. > :01:51.he had said a sell yuj of things before when a Tory councillor. How
:01:52. > :01:59.quickly things change depending on when the blouse. There are
:02:00. > :02:04.occasional barmy views by people of all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour
:02:05. > :02:10.councillor claimed of fathered a child with an extra terrorist ral,
:02:11. > :02:18.and said his real mother was a foot green alien. And in Wales a
:02:19. > :02:26.councillor thinking about heading off for the
:02:27. > :02:35.slopes, there were flurries of embarrassment for the Tories after
:02:36. > :02:41.Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing party in a resort.
:02:42. > :02:46.Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps on the gravy train, watch out for
:02:47. > :02:51.hot air. In Britain temperatures are rising
:02:52. > :02:58.ahead of the European elections in May. It could get stormy, so advise
:02:59. > :03:02.light aircraft. Watch out for outbreaks of common sense, and no
:03:03. > :03:07.chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back to you, Andrew, with the rest of the
:03:08. > :03:12.Sunday Politics. Nick, if it was any other party that
:03:13. > :03:17.had bon through the past week it would be in meltdown. And maybe it
:03:18. > :03:22.is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't. What do you think? That just shows,
:03:23. > :03:28.that great weather forecast, Prince Charles now has a rival to be an
:03:29. > :03:34.excellent weather forecaster, as does the Duchess of Cornwall. It
:03:35. > :03:38.shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr candidate to the European elections.
:03:39. > :03:42.Our invitation to the British people to kick the establishment. The
:03:43. > :03:46.establishment have spent five years that the European Parliament is a
:03:47. > :03:53.waste of time, so who are you going to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of
:03:54. > :03:57.person. What was important about your eadviceration of Nigel Farage
:03:58. > :04:01.on Daily Politics is that when it came to the substance, they
:04:02. > :04:05.flounder. But the point about that party is they may have the thinnest
:04:06. > :04:11.set of policies, but people know what they stand for more than any
:04:12. > :04:17.other parties - get out of Europe, a grammar school in every town. If any
:04:18. > :04:22.other leading politician called for an end to the ban on handguns, at a
:04:23. > :04:26.time when we've seen these appalling gun deaths in the United States now
:04:27. > :04:28.almost one every week in some terrible siege in a school. It would
:04:29. > :04:38.be a crisis. It seems to wash terrible siege in a school. It would
:04:39. > :04:43.him. He's got congenital foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into
:04:44. > :04:49.another wild nothing to do with why people might vote UKIP. I don't
:04:50. > :04:53.think people are desperate to have handgun licences back in this
:04:54. > :04:59.country. It is such an unusual phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a
:05:00. > :05:05.Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying it, we've seen the damage done to
:05:06. > :05:09.the Lib Dems on a much more serious manner, we would say this is
:05:10. > :05:14.terminal. But maybe it adds to this image that we are not like the other
:05:15. > :05:20.parties. I think that is it. We keep waiting for these scandals and
:05:21. > :05:26.embarrassments to do damage to UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not
:05:27. > :05:30.working. It is ultimately because if you are an antiestablishment party,
:05:31. > :05:35.if you are an anti-system party the rules of the game which apply to the
:05:36. > :05:41.establishment parties don't apply to you. And the more ramshackle and
:05:42. > :05:47.embarrassing you are, the more authentic you seem. It what be take
:05:48. > :05:52.something for them not to finish second in May. Do they spend the
:05:53. > :05:56.following 12 months sinking in the poll snoos And George Osborne's
:05:57. > :05:59.strategy is fame everything as Labour versus the Conservatives The
:06:00. > :06:06.electorate will have their fun in May. Maybe the Tories will be beat
:06:07. > :06:10.into third place but in thejection is that -- but in the general
:06:11. > :06:19.election it is Labour versus the Tories. The Conservative Party will
:06:20. > :06:24.run around, 46 letters to Graham Brady, a leadership contest. That
:06:25. > :06:27.sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules well in the European elections,
:06:28. > :06:34.could cause big trouble for Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it?
:06:35. > :06:39.The big point about this, David Cameron said this is not a political
:06:40. > :06:44.party but a pressure group. This is the way to look at UKIP, and the way
:06:45. > :06:51.it is used by people in the right of the party, who say we have to do
:06:52. > :06:58.this. I like the policy of painting the trains in their old liveries. It
:06:59. > :07:08.would be like my old train set. I like the bigger passports.
:07:09. > :07:16.Pre-GNER... And London and Midland. I used to be a train spotter.
:07:17. > :07:22.Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the phone. Good to know you are watching
:07:23. > :07:27.but pity you are not here. He wanted to clarify he had constituency
:07:28. > :07:31.commitments to prevent him coming on the show to talk about becoming
:07:32. > :07:34.leader of the party, but he didn't dispute anything we said on the
:07:35. > :07:37.show. Yesterday, Ed Balls said that
:07:38. > :07:40.housing investment will be a central priority for the next Labour
:07:41. > :07:44.Government. It's a big issue, as the lack of new homes pushes up the the
:07:45. > :07:46.price of owning or renting. Well, tomorrow the Tories will announce
:07:47. > :07:53.what they say is the most ambitious programme of affordable
:07:54. > :07:56.housebuilding for 20 years. The Government sees housing as a really
:07:57. > :08:04.important part of the economy. That's why we are announcing a 23
:08:05. > :08:08.billion package for 165,000 new affordable homes. So individual
:08:09. > :08:13.builders, councils, housing associations can bid for that money.
:08:14. > :08:17.Phase one, which we are halfway through at the moment, we've built
:08:18. > :08:25.170,000 houses. 99,000 already coming out of the ground, so we ve
:08:26. > :08:30.made real progress on that. So, 165,000 new, affordable homes. It is
:08:31. > :08:34.a lot. Let me add three more words. Over three years. It is not such a
:08:35. > :08:38.lot. It is not, and Labour's commitment is 200,000 homes a year
:08:39. > :08:43.and even that isn't enough. The problem here is that the vest
:08:44. > :08:47.interest is with people who already have homes. They have a vote in the
:08:48. > :08:52.system through the planning regulations. In London there is a
:08:53. > :08:57.gap in the hedge through Richmond Park through which you should be
:08:58. > :09:00.able to see St Paul's Cathedral That's why you cannot build homes
:09:01. > :09:03.able to see St Paul's Cathedral where you want them. I don't think
:09:04. > :09:11.we want to build homes over Richmond Park. He wasn't saying that. That's
:09:12. > :09:15.dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine. You've got to deal with supply,
:09:16. > :09:21.which is why Labour is talking about 200,000 a year, and what George
:09:22. > :09:26.Osborne has done with supply is helping with demand. We know the
:09:27. > :09:32.Help to Buy Scheme is pretty dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen
:09:33. > :09:37.to put the break on that. If you are to deal with supply, you have to do
:09:38. > :09:41.radical things. Chris Huhne talked about on brownfield sites you can
:09:42. > :09:45.tax people who are holding the land as if the development has taken
:09:46. > :09:49.place. Then if you are really going to deal with it you have to talk
:09:50. > :09:53.about the greenfield sites, and you have to deal with the garden cities
:09:54. > :09:57.argument, which is too much for the Tories. All the parties seem to
:09:58. > :10:01.agree building new houses is a political winner. I hope that they
:10:02. > :10:07.are right. I'm not sure they are. The housing market is the example of
:10:08. > :10:12.what economists call the insider in-outsider problem. People who are
:10:13. > :10:18.already homeowners have no rational incentive to vote for more housing
:10:19. > :10:21.stock. Even if you leave aside the Conservative arable objections, if
:10:22. > :10:26.you are a homeowner there is an interest to stick with the planning
:10:27. > :10:30.promise that we have. So then we are stuck between a rock and a hard
:10:31. > :10:35.place. Not only are we growing at the moment but our population is
:10:36. > :10:39.growing. I've seen projects that in quite quickly we will overtake
:10:40. > :10:42.Germany and become the largest populated country in Europe. If
:10:43. > :10:48.that's the case we've got to build homes. We have. If you look at Tower
:10:49. > :10:53.Hamlets in London, the population is r ging higher than the number of
:10:54. > :10:58.dwelling. Classically the theory's been young people are most affected
:10:59. > :11:04.by this and they don't vote much. But when their parents have young
:11:05. > :11:09.Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's an electoral issue. That's why the
:11:10. > :11:13.garden cities project is interesting, because they finance
:11:14. > :11:18.themselves. You zone it for development, it is worth ?2 million
:11:19. > :11:24.an acre and then you can build on it. But who is going to want the
:11:25. > :11:30.greenfield sites gone. And how quickly can we build garden cities
:11:31. > :11:35.today? Some were started before the Town and Country Planning Act. I've
:11:36. > :11:39.read stats about the way Chinese and Japanese are building houses and
:11:40. > :11:43.they were slower than that. Here's a thought, sticking on the housing
:11:44. > :11:47.theme. Ed Miliband came up with the energy freeze, a populist
:11:48. > :11:53.interventionist move. Then the use it or lose it to land developers.
:11:54. > :11:58.Then breaking up the banks. Now the 50p tax rate. How much would you put
:11:59. > :12:03.on Labour coming up for rent controls? That's already a big
:12:04. > :12:07.split. They are split already on it. They have. In London it is a popular
:12:08. > :12:12.policy. It might not play well in the rest of the country. I would say
:12:13. > :12:16.50-50 on that. I think Labour supporting rent controls like the
:12:17. > :12:20.Tories having a go at welfare. The policy may be individually popular
:12:21. > :12:24.but it sends an impression about the party which might be less attract
:12:25. > :12:28.active. It confirms underlying suspicions that vote these guys into
:12:29. > :12:33.power and suddenly they are tampering with the private economy.
:12:34. > :12:37.The memories of the '70s when Governments tried and failed to do
:12:38. > :12:41.that. It is riskier than a superficial reading of the polls
:12:42. > :12:46.would suggest. One to watch? I think they are looking at it. That was the
:12:47. > :12:51.key message of the Ed Balls speech on housing, is looking at supply and
:12:52. > :12:55.how you get to that 200,000 figure a year, which is substantially more
:12:56. > :13:00.than what Kris Hopkins is talking about. What we didn't get to talk
:13:01. > :13:04.about, remember we had Michael Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of
:13:05. > :13:08.Schools. We all consumed was Mr Gove's man, the Education
:13:09. > :13:12.Secretary's man. Now according to the Sunday Times he is spitting
:13:13. > :13:16.blood about the way Mr Gove and his office are speaking about him behind
:13:17. > :13:18.the scenes. We've checked the quotes and he stands by them, so I think
:13:19. > :13:23.we'll have to have and he stands by them, so I think
:13:24. > :13:26.Ofsted back on the programme. If you are watching, we're here. All that
:13:27. > :13:30.to the Lib Dems who didn't come on today.
:13:31. > :13:33.That's all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is
:13:34. > :13:37.back on Monday at midday on BBC Two, and I'll be here again next week.
:13:38. > :14:15.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:16. > :14:23.Britain, with 120,000 soldiers is now at war with Germany
:14:24. > :14:31.This would be the first truly modern war.
:14:32. > :14:36.and resolve of entire populations against each other.
:14:37. > :14:41.A war that would turn the country upside down.