:00:35. > :00:40.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:45. > :00:48.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:49. > :00:51.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:52. > :00:56.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:00:57. > :00:59.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:00. > :01:10.They could be Here in the east, claims th`t
:01:11. > :01:11.elderly people are losing ott when it
:01:12. > :01:16.In London, changes to the authority which runs the capital's Fire
:01:17. > :01:17.Service. The Mayor has a political move designed to silence his
:01:18. > :01:26.critics. And with me, as always, the most
:01:27. > :01:30.useless political panel in the business, who we're contractually
:01:31. > :01:34.obliged to insult on a weekly basis. But not today, because they are our
:01:35. > :01:42.chosen ones. They are the brightest and the best, we've even hired a
:01:43. > :01:48.plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be
:01:49. > :01:51.tweeting throughout the programme. Right, left and centre of the
:01:52. > :01:54.Westminster Establishment have been unanimous in saying there would be
:01:55. > :01:59.no chance of monetary union with the rest of the UK for an independent
:02:00. > :02:02.Scotland. Then an unnamed minister spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't
:02:03. > :02:07.necessarily so, and that made the Guardian's front page. The SNP were
:02:08. > :02:10.delighted and the anti-independence campaign rushed to limit the damage.
:02:11. > :02:14.The faux pas has come at a time when campaign rushed to limit the damage.
:02:15. > :02:19.the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were
:02:20. > :02:22.going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that
:02:23. > :02:24.campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in
:02:25. > :02:35.Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.
:02:36. > :02:41.Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no
:02:42. > :02:49.campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have
:02:50. > :02:54.got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have
:02:55. > :02:59.got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we
:03:00. > :03:04.are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the
:03:05. > :03:08.possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think
:03:09. > :03:11.that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it
:03:12. > :03:15.against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a
:03:16. > :03:19.detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England
:03:20. > :03:23.Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would
:03:24. > :03:27.not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the
:03:28. > :03:31.permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is
:03:32. > :03:35.such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with
:03:36. > :03:41.it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the
:03:42. > :03:45.force of argument is very much against those of us who want to
:03:46. > :03:49.remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the
:03:50. > :03:53.day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland a
:03:54. > :03:55.deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is
:03:56. > :04:01.nowhere else in the nuclear deterrent is, there is
:04:02. > :04:05.is, certainly not for the next 0 years, a deal would be done, the
:04:06. > :04:08.nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a
:04:09. > :04:13.monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible
:04:14. > :04:18.isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is
:04:19. > :04:22.more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear
:04:23. > :04:26.advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic
:04:27. > :04:30.best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland any
:04:31. > :04:38.more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put
:04:39. > :04:47.the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes
:04:48. > :04:53.I do not believe that will be a I do not believe that will be a
:04:54. > :04:57.Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish
:04:58. > :05:01.Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not
:05:02. > :05:05.sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from
:05:06. > :05:10.Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have
:05:11. > :05:14.not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the
:05:15. > :05:26.questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too
:05:27. > :05:28.negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found
:05:29. > :05:32.you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,
:05:33. > :05:36.isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the
:05:37. > :05:40.people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes
:05:41. > :05:45.there were a couple of polls part of the United Kingdom. Yes
:05:46. > :05:50.week that said the gap was narrowing a little. The most recent poll of
:05:51. > :05:56.all, the poll on Wednesday which actually polled people's voting
:05:57. > :05:59.intentions on the question come September showed that only 28% of
:06:00. > :06:04.people in Scotland were prepared to say they were voting yes, as opposed
:06:05. > :06:10.to the 42% who were on our side of the argument saying they wish to
:06:11. > :06:14.remain part of the UK. That poll said women were skewing towards a
:06:15. > :06:19.yes vote and it showed that the don't knows were beginning to skew
:06:20. > :06:23.towards a yes vote. That is why you yourself wrote this morning that if
:06:24. > :06:29.your campaign does not get its act together, you would be sleepwalking
:06:30. > :06:33.into a split to quote yourself. No, to quote myself I said it was not
:06:34. > :06:38.impossible that the Nationalists could win that. That is absolutely
:06:39. > :06:41.the case. The biggest danger for the United Kingdom camp in this whole
:06:42. > :06:46.argument is people will look at the polls. They show us with a healthy
:06:47. > :07:03.lead consistently. As a consequence, they think this will not happen It
:07:04. > :07:05.can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least
:07:06. > :07:08.because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the
:07:09. > :07:09.amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will
:07:10. > :07:13.be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social
:07:14. > :07:18.media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we
:07:19. > :07:25.have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as
:07:26. > :07:30.theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave
:07:31. > :07:37.you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think
:07:38. > :07:42.they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the
:07:43. > :07:46.agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if
:07:47. > :07:53.there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold
:07:54. > :07:57.of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds,
:07:58. > :08:01.when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there
:08:02. > :08:04.was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is
:08:05. > :08:10.still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after
:08:11. > :08:13.the 18th of September this year not just the next day but the next
:08:14. > :08:18.year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place,
:08:19. > :08:21.when there would be a lot of moving places on the table. You talked
:08:22. > :08:25.about Faslane, what would happen then and that is what I managed to
:08:26. > :08:30.get hold of, that there are thoughts about all those pieces that would be
:08:31. > :08:33.on the table. It is not surprising that some in Westminster think
:08:34. > :08:39.that. Let's take the Shadow Chancellor Danny Alexander at his
:08:40. > :08:43.word, they do not want a monetary union. But if they are faced with
:08:44. > :08:48.giving the Scots a monetary union in a post-independent Scotland, or
:08:49. > :08:52.having to remove the nuclear submarines from Faslane, where they
:08:53. > :08:57.have nowhere else to put them, probably except North America, there
:08:58. > :09:01.is a deal to be done. I think whatever minister gave Nick his
:09:02. > :09:05.story is probably onto something. If the Scots vote for independence of
:09:06. > :09:10.course a deal will be done about the currency because it is not in
:09:11. > :09:11.London's interests to have a rancorous relationship with
:09:12. > :09:20.Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not done, how does one country stop
:09:21. > :09:27.another country using its. That is different. All London can really do
:09:28. > :09:31.is prevent Scottish intervention on the monetary policy committee. The
:09:32. > :09:35.interest rate would be set without any regard to the Scottish interest.
:09:36. > :09:40.Even that is only a fatal problem if the Scottish economy becomes so out
:09:41. > :09:45.of sync with the UK economy. Except it is a problem for Scotland's
:09:46. > :09:49.financial system because if you go down that route there is no means of
:09:50. > :09:52.injecting liquidity into the financial system in the financial
:09:53. > :09:57.crisis. That is why they would rather have a monetary union. Is it
:09:58. > :09:59.not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the
:10:00. > :10:04.Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign
:10:05. > :10:07.which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the
:10:08. > :10:11.resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists
:10:12. > :10:17.having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in
:10:18. > :10:20.the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that
:10:21. > :10:26.he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a
:10:27. > :10:31.bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The
:10:32. > :10:39.polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going
:10:40. > :10:43.their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the
:10:44. > :10:50.gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The
:10:51. > :10:54.plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better
:10:55. > :10:57.Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they
:10:58. > :11:01.get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London
:11:02. > :11:04.Police say, give us a couple of million.
:11:05. > :11:07.Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when
:11:08. > :11:15.North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey
:11:16. > :11:23.has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have
:11:24. > :11:29.been top of his inbox. The big six energy companies account for 95 of
:11:30. > :11:33.the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit
:11:34. > :11:38.coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation
:11:39. > :11:41.by the competition and markets authorities which will look at
:11:42. > :11:45.whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave
:11:46. > :11:50.investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not
:11:51. > :11:54.spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home
:11:55. > :11:59.might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the
:12:00. > :12:04.generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's
:12:05. > :12:09.night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016
:12:10. > :12:14.according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to
:12:15. > :12:20.2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of
:12:21. > :12:23.candles. Now where is that light switch?
:12:24. > :12:31.Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light
:12:32. > :12:36.switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating
:12:37. > :12:43.capacity could possibly reach 2 next winter or the winter after We
:12:44. > :12:47.will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy
:12:48. > :12:52.investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal
:12:53. > :12:58.with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up
:12:59. > :13:03.massively. Investment has been billion a year. Last year was a
:13:04. > :13:09.record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing
:13:10. > :13:12.it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment
:13:13. > :13:17.massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights
:13:18. > :13:19.on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing
:13:20. > :13:25.anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we
:13:26. > :13:31.have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We
:13:32. > :13:34.have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will
:13:35. > :13:38.come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that
:13:39. > :13:47.we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have
:13:48. > :13:53.one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having
:13:54. > :13:58.major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The
:13:59. > :14:02.figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something.
:14:03. > :14:06.Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from
:14:07. > :14:11.interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are
:14:12. > :14:18.able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a
:14:19. > :14:24.mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on
:14:25. > :14:30.that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to
:14:31. > :14:36.under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our
:14:37. > :14:41.plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it
:14:42. > :14:47.would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply
:14:48. > :14:54.who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our
:14:55. > :14:58.plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to
:14:59. > :15:01.come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of
:15:02. > :15:04.power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.
:15:05. > :15:09.There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we
:15:10. > :15:13.are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.
:15:14. > :15:16.We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction
:15:17. > :15:33.for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned
:15:34. > :15:35.lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries
:15:36. > :15:38.so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I
:15:39. > :15:48.am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000
:15:49. > :15:54.megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost
:15:55. > :15:59.22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power
:16:00. > :16:02.supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those
:16:03. > :16:05.figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power
:16:06. > :16:10.plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants,
:16:11. > :16:14.nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment but
:16:15. > :16:20.we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to
:16:21. > :16:24.date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare
:16:25. > :16:28.capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour
:16:29. > :16:32.Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing
:16:33. > :16:36.significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also
:16:37. > :16:40.remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at
:16:41. > :16:47.15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average
:16:48. > :16:52.margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since
:16:53. > :16:56.privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high
:16:57. > :17:02.margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have
:17:03. > :17:05.historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so
:17:06. > :17:09.historically low margins. People sure the lights stay on, we have a
:17:10. > :17:13.short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a
:17:14. > :17:14.long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between
:17:15. > :17:38.nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between
:17:39. > :17:46.on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has
:17:47. > :17:54.increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the
:17:55. > :17:58.report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been
:17:59. > :18:03.working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we
:18:04. > :18:07.have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on
:18:08. > :18:13.if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but
:18:14. > :18:17.demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to
:18:18. > :18:21.off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,
:18:22. > :18:25.and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the
:18:26. > :18:29.Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks
:18:30. > :18:32.for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around
:18:33. > :18:38.for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to
:18:39. > :18:41.expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into
:18:42. > :18:49.haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,
:18:50. > :18:54.dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at
:18:55. > :19:04.the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range
:19:05. > :19:08.of power companies who are building a new power station and want to
:19:09. > :19:12.build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100
:19:13. > :19:16.billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore
:19:17. > :19:20.capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the
:19:21. > :19:25.Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to
:19:26. > :19:30.expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We
:19:31. > :19:35.have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is
:19:36. > :19:40.happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say
:19:41. > :19:44.it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we
:19:45. > :19:49.have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at
:19:50. > :19:53.independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to
:19:54. > :19:56.invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore
:19:57. > :19:59.wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only
:20:00. > :20:04.countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker
:20:05. > :20:09.picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an
:20:10. > :20:14.investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.
:20:15. > :20:19.Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,
:20:20. > :20:22.only one started under your watch for the others were done under
:20:23. > :20:27.Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled
:20:28. > :20:30.back from further investment including new offshore wind
:20:31. > :20:35.investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020
:20:36. > :20:39.anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about,
:20:40. > :20:43.the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I
:20:44. > :20:50.capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2 20,
:20:51. > :20:53.so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have
:20:54. > :20:58.no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers.
:20:59. > :21:03.Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones
:21:04. > :21:07.you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a
:21:08. > :21:12.short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan
:21:13. > :21:15.auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed
:21:16. > :21:21.plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long term
:21:22. > :21:25.plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be
:21:26. > :21:29.built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's
:21:30. > :21:34.a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more
:21:35. > :21:37.expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap
:21:38. > :21:43.energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices
:21:44. > :21:50.is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You
:21:51. > :22:01.have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices.
:22:02. > :22:10.All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low
:22:11. > :22:15.Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the
:22:16. > :22:18.last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys
:22:19. > :22:23.prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the
:22:24. > :22:26.Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the
:22:27. > :22:31.time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas
:22:32. > :22:34.could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by
:22:35. > :22:40.the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per
:22:41. > :22:49.megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently.
:22:50. > :22:52.Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast,
:22:53. > :22:56.Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is
:22:57. > :23:00.an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power
:23:01. > :23:05.plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices
:23:06. > :23:10.except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations
:23:11. > :23:13.paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper
:23:14. > :23:19.carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's
:23:20. > :23:23.very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the
:23:24. > :23:27.pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in
:23:28. > :23:32.May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast.
:23:33. > :23:38.You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure
:23:39. > :23:44.is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the
:23:45. > :23:51.first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.
:23:52. > :23:57.If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their
:23:58. > :24:03.partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about
:24:04. > :24:09.lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than
:24:10. > :24:14.the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are
:24:15. > :24:18.targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that
:24:19. > :24:23.that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say
:24:24. > :24:27.that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few
:24:28. > :24:32.years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a
:24:33. > :24:37.single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s
:24:38. > :24:42.what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in
:24:43. > :24:45.technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in
:24:46. > :24:54.mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were
:24:55. > :24:59.clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put
:25:00. > :25:03.the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on
:25:04. > :25:09.investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will
:25:10. > :25:13.guarantee them a return of 10% 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't
:25:14. > :25:18.that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two
:25:19. > :25:22.separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply
:25:23. > :25:27.retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale
:25:28. > :25:31.side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are
:25:32. > :25:37.comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to
:25:38. > :25:40.do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,
:25:41. > :25:48.there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we
:25:49. > :25:50.haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will.
:25:51. > :25:55.haven't got more time. Thank you. happened to the BNP? The far right
:25:56. > :25:59.party looked as if it was on the verge of a major breakthrough not so
:26:00. > :26:02.long ago. Now it seems to be going nowhere. In a moment we'll be
:26:03. > :26:04.speaking to the party's press officer, Simon Derby. But first
:26:05. > :26:08.here's Giles. His report contains some flash photography. For a moment
:26:09. > :26:11.in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had a spring in their step, smiling at
:26:12. > :26:14.their success of winning two seats in the European Parliament. They
:26:15. > :26:18.already were the second largest party in a London council and had a
:26:19. > :26:28.London Assembly seat. Despite concerns from mainstream parties
:26:29. > :26:33.their vote was up. Our vote increased up to 943,000. Savouring
:26:34. > :26:35.success was brief that morning as anti-far right protestors invaded
:26:36. > :26:40.and egged the press conference and forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty
:26:41. > :26:43.retreat. What is more significant is that, in the years since, that
:26:44. > :26:52.retreat has been matched internally, electorally and in the minds of
:26:53. > :26:56.those who had given them that vote. For a number of years they were
:26:57. > :26:59.performing better than the UK Independence Party and other smaller
:27:00. > :27:03.parties like the Greens and respect. The problem for the BNP if they
:27:04. > :27:07.didn't make any inroads into other groups, they didn't go into the
:27:08. > :27:11.middle class, the young, they didn't go into women and ethnic minorities
:27:12. > :27:16.for obvious reasons. So the party was quickly handicapped from the
:27:17. > :27:19.outset. Not that you would have known that at the outset. In 20 6 in
:27:20. > :27:23.Barking and Dagenham, the party won 12 council seats against a back drop
:27:24. > :27:25.of discontent with the ruling Labour council and Government and picking
:27:26. > :27:35.up on immigration and housing concerns in the borough. It's
:27:36. > :27:37.because of all the different nationality people moving in the
:27:38. > :27:42.area, they are taking over everything. My Nan and grandad lived
:27:43. > :27:49.there all their lives. I thought I would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah,
:27:50. > :27:54.they will get elected over here When I came to Barking, Dagenham and
:27:55. > :27:58.Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a second largest party in one of the
:27:59. > :28:02.local councils. You can even find non-white people who voted BNP. Now
:28:03. > :28:06.they have no counsellors, and even though can when you talk to people,
:28:07. > :28:11.you will find among the older white working-class population concerned
:28:12. > :28:16.that the BNP claim to represent everyone says they are nowhere. So
:28:17. > :28:22.what happened to that about? On behalf of all the people in Britain,
:28:23. > :28:27.we in Barking have not just beaten, that we have smashed the attempt of
:28:28. > :28:34.extremist outsiders. The local Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as
:28:35. > :28:38.she is now. I always knew if we could manage to ensure that wasn't a
:28:39. > :28:42.single BNP councillor left on the council and I won my seat, it would
:28:43. > :28:45.stop the process of disintegration. But what beat the BNP here in 2 10
:28:46. > :28:49.was a mobilisation of the Labour vote. And today it is not hard to
:28:50. > :28:57.find the same discontent over the same issues. It's just finding a new
:28:58. > :29:00.political home. A couple of years ago, I used to vote Labour.
:29:01. > :29:04.Obviously, they haven't done nothing around here as much now, with jobs
:29:05. > :29:09.and unemployment, and housing and stuff like that about, basically,
:29:10. > :29:14.BNP ain't around here no more. Now it's more about UKIP and I believe
:29:15. > :29:17.that these UKIP are saying are true. If I thought BNP would make the
:29:18. > :29:23.difference, I would vote but is not in the people behind them. They all
:29:24. > :29:28.get bandaged with the same brush. I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP
:29:29. > :29:32.didn't get anywhere. What they say in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they
:29:33. > :29:36.will get somewhere. It's not racist but it's just that our kids haven't
:29:37. > :29:40.got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of UKIP is mutual but his once fellow
:29:41. > :29:43.MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the party issued a statement to this
:29:44. > :29:51.programme saying BNP failure is closer to home post 2010. It was
:29:52. > :30:06.after that election discontent arose amongst sections of the membership.
:30:07. > :30:11.Those members who left or were thrown out by Nick Griffin had
:30:12. > :30:14.already felt let down by his appearance on Question Time.
:30:15. > :30:16.already felt let down by his a national platform for the BNP
:30:17. > :30:26.something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.
:30:27. > :30:32.This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John
:30:33. > :30:36.Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He
:30:37. > :30:39.went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some
:30:40. > :30:43.voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here
:30:44. > :30:51.has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins
:30:52. > :30:55.me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you
:30:56. > :31:01.had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on
:31:02. > :31:07.the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is
:31:08. > :31:11.very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The
:31:12. > :31:18.main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country
:31:19. > :31:23.faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European
:31:24. > :31:33.elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were
:31:34. > :31:38.denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take
:31:39. > :31:43.place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer
:31:44. > :31:51.movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL
:31:52. > :31:57.is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not
:31:58. > :32:01.a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took
:32:02. > :32:07.a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this
:32:08. > :32:12.stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless
:32:13. > :32:15.promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on
:32:16. > :32:21.this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.
:32:22. > :32:26.Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will
:32:27. > :32:31.probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across
:32:32. > :32:37.Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I
:32:38. > :32:55.reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and
:32:56. > :33:00.Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are
:33:01. > :33:04.on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I
:33:05. > :33:09.was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party
:33:10. > :33:13.did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and
:33:14. > :33:16.Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was
:33:17. > :33:22.true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader
:33:23. > :33:28.who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy
:33:29. > :33:34.No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is
:33:35. > :33:40.irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs
:33:41. > :33:44.and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the
:33:45. > :33:53.European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose
:33:54. > :33:59.seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far
:34:00. > :34:10.right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin
:34:11. > :34:15.appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is
:34:16. > :34:22.part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with
:34:23. > :34:26.them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am
:34:27. > :34:31.perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible
:34:32. > :34:35.reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when
:34:36. > :34:42.will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely
:34:43. > :34:49.for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and
:34:50. > :34:55.self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to
:34:56. > :35:01.Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in
:35:02. > :35:05.Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just
:35:06. > :35:11.an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is
:35:12. > :35:16.completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the
:35:17. > :35:21.polls, performance at elections the problem with your leadership is you
:35:22. > :35:25.are now going the way of the National front, heading for
:35:26. > :35:30.oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the
:35:31. > :35:35.problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years
:35:36. > :35:40.ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not
:35:41. > :35:44.around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a
:35:45. > :35:48.prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country.
:35:49. > :35:52.That will lead to huge problems Only the British National Party are
:35:53. > :35:57.prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing
:35:58. > :36:02.this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how
:36:03. > :36:07.irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New
:36:08. > :36:12.Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would
:36:13. > :36:16.turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they
:36:17. > :36:20.put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of
:36:21. > :36:23.bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.
:36:24. > :36:26.You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in
:36:27. > :36:37.Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here
:36:38. > :36:44.Hello and welcome to the programme for us in the East. Coming tp,
:36:45. > :36:49.school dinners. The Lib Dems may want free school meals for xoung
:36:50. > :36:57.children, but what will it lakes to make it happen. Jesus fed the 5 00,
:36:58. > :36:59.I don't we will be doing it. And how fair is held funding?
:37:00. > :37:03.Part of this region have more elderly people than anywherd else in
:37:04. > :37:08.the country, but it is clailed they are missing out. The formalhn
:37:09. > :37:13.continues to disseminate ag`inst elderly and discriminates against
:37:14. > :37:19.people rural areas. `` people in rural areas.
:37:20. > :37:21.First let's meet our guests ` Peter Bone, the Conservative MP for
:37:22. > :37:24.Wellingborough and Gavin Shtker Labour's MP for Luton South. And I'd
:37:25. > :37:29.like to start with this week's teachers' strike. 540 schools in the
:37:30. > :37:31.region were hit by strike action. Teachers walked out, protesting over
:37:32. > :37:43.pay, pensions and working conditions.
:37:44. > :37:48.There are three key aspects of the campaign. Initially it was `
:37:49. > :37:50.penchant issue but we also worried about workload and excessivd
:37:51. > :37:59.bureaucracy and the destruction of the pay bargaining system.
:38:00. > :38:02.Gavin Shuker, performance rdlated pay will change teachers bloop
:38:03. > :38:07.salaries, but why should thd bad be paid as much of the good? If you
:38:08. > :38:14.look at the evidence around the quality of teachers, we are working
:38:15. > :38:18.with teachers to improve thdir assessments in classroom. Mhchael
:38:19. > :38:21.Gove is approaching this because he wants to have a fight with the
:38:22. > :38:26.trades unions and individual teachers. It is usually distressing
:38:27. > :38:32.for people at school, but there is a line in the sand. The NUT s`ys that
:38:33. > :38:38.nobody wants to speak to thdm, that Michael Gove will not come to the
:38:39. > :38:42.table? This is going back through 70s, because the teachers jtst want
:38:43. > :38:47.to go on strike. It is a ridiculous thing to do. Most people recognise
:38:48. > :38:53.that Michael Gove's reforms are working. Do you think they come to
:38:54. > :38:58.the decision like that lightly? Yes, I think it is a throwback to union
:38:59. > :39:05.power. In a lot of teachers carried on anyway and a lot of schools were
:39:06. > :39:09.very unhappy about the strike. But individual pay bargaining whll
:39:10. > :39:20.reward success, it will incdntivise people. If you believe the dducation
:39:21. > :39:25.is a market, it will drive down .. Do you think the reforms help
:39:26. > :39:29.education? No, I think they take people who we asked to servd as our
:39:30. > :39:33.communities, and that is wrong. It may be a key Liberal Democrat
:39:34. > :39:36.policy that in six months' time all 4`, 5` and 6`year`olds will be
:39:37. > :39:39.entitled to free hot dinners at school, but can it be delivdred It
:39:40. > :39:41.seems not, unless substanti`l amounts of money are spent to
:39:42. > :39:44.upgrade our school kitchens. The problem is particularly acute in
:39:45. > :39:48.Essex, where the council is asking schools to come up with ?700,00 to
:39:49. > :39:51.fund improvements. Here's Tom Barton.
:39:52. > :39:56.It's lunchtime at Montgomerx Infant School in Colchester. About 70
:39:57. > :40:00.pupils here have a hot lunch every day. But from September all of these
:40:01. > :40:12.four`, five` and six`year`olds will be entitled to a free hot mdal. I
:40:13. > :40:20.have school dinners on Mond`ys, Wednesdays and Fridays. Got some
:40:21. > :40:29.burgers, chips and beans. Is it nice? It is very nice. It is all
:40:30. > :40:32.warmer and the packed lunchds, they are cold and you don't like to eat
:40:33. > :40:35.cold dinners. The number of hot dinners eaten by pupils herd is
:40:36. > :40:39.likely to more than triple from September. The school is gohng to
:40:40. > :40:42.build a new serving area to help it cope. But the head still dodsn't
:40:43. > :40:52.know quite where all of the children will sit. Because the dining room
:40:53. > :40:55.just isn't big enough. Do you sing the government spent enough time
:40:56. > :41:00.thinking about the difficulties that schools will face in implemdnting
:41:01. > :41:04.this? No, I don't think thex understood it at all. They needed to
:41:05. > :41:08.get out into schools and talk to headteachers about the impact it
:41:09. > :41:14.would have. It has not been thought out. The main cooking suite will be
:41:15. > :41:18.along beside. At the Wickford Infant School, a brand`new kitchen is being
:41:19. > :41:21.built. With support from thd County Council, which is helping hdads
:41:22. > :41:26.prepare for the changes. Thdy have got concerns with regard to
:41:27. > :41:29.timelines and achieving it. But because they are educators, they
:41:30. > :41:33.have not got the expertise themselves to understand wh`t is
:41:34. > :41:37.involved. We working with e`ch school individually and sayhng by
:41:38. > :41:41.the date, we will need to h`ve done this task and this task, so that we
:41:42. > :41:45.are on track to achieve what we need to achieve. The government has given
:41:46. > :41:49.Essex County Council ?3.1m to pay for upgrades to school kitchens But
:41:50. > :41:52.the work is going to cost ?3.8m The County Council is asking schools to
:41:53. > :42:03.make up the difference. In lost cases they will be paying 24% of the
:42:04. > :42:10.cost. The initiative is good but from our point of view as the local
:42:11. > :42:13.authority, there is always ` difficulty in making the cache fits
:42:14. > :42:18.the requirement. It would h`ve been nice to have some more monex but we
:42:19. > :42:23.are doing the best that we can with what we have got. Most schools in
:42:24. > :42:28.Essex, like this one, already provide hot dinners for somd of
:42:29. > :42:32.their pupils. They have a hdad start when it comes to getting re`dy for
:42:33. > :42:37.September. But there are a few schools which do not providd any
:42:38. > :42:41.sort of hot meal and for thdm, this is a much bigger job. At St Peter's
:42:42. > :42:43.Catholic Primary in Billericay, all of the children bring packed
:42:44. > :42:49.lunches. The kitchen here w`s closed down several years ago. And the head
:42:50. > :42:58.says replacing it would simply be too expensive. This is the only area
:42:59. > :43:03.that we can viably build a kitchen. It would cost us in the reghon of
:43:04. > :43:07.?500,000, which we have not got Even with a grant from the council,
:43:08. > :43:13.the school would be faced whth a bill of tens of thousands of pounds.
:43:14. > :43:16.So you are in this situation, where central government say you lust
:43:17. > :43:24.provide hot dinners to all of your infants but you don't have `
:43:25. > :43:32.kitchen? Yes. How do you resolve that conundrum? I don't know that we
:43:33. > :43:38.can. The only way that I can see, if we have to provide the meals, would
:43:39. > :43:43.be to build a kitchen, a separate kitchen. On this site, in otr
:43:44. > :43:50.circumstances, without afflhcting `` affecting detrimentally the
:43:51. > :43:55.curriculum, we would have to build a kitchen. And the funding is not
:43:56. > :43:59.there. From where you are now, there is no conceivable way that xou will
:44:00. > :44:06.be delivering hot dinners to your infant pupils in September, is
:44:07. > :44:10.there? Jesus fed the 5000, H don't think we would do that. We would
:44:11. > :44:13.need him to come and give us a hand. Earlier I spoke to the Liberal
:44:14. > :44:16.Democrats' Education Spokepdrson and Norwich MP, Simon Wright, and I
:44:17. > :44:20.asked him if his party knew how expensive this policy would be
:44:21. > :44:24.before Nick Clegg announced it. Well, this policy has been very
:44:25. > :44:30.clearly costed based on the experience that has come from the
:44:31. > :44:34.pilot schemes. This is not ` new initiative out of nowhere. There
:44:35. > :44:38.have been pilots running from 2 09 which has given the Departmdnt for
:44:39. > :44:47.Education a very clear understanding of what the needs for this policy.
:44:48. > :44:52.Is dashes will mean for pardnts that they will know that each chhld is
:44:53. > :44:58.eligible. But what about thd schools who say they do not have thd
:44:59. > :45:02.resources to build the kitchens Much of the independent evidence
:45:03. > :45:09.provided to the departments have not identified lack of funding `s being
:45:10. > :45:15.a significant issue. But thd basis of the pilot scheme has meant that
:45:16. > :45:18.the government has put up ?050 million for improvements for
:45:19. > :45:24.schools. Essex is getting ?3 million of that, one of the biggest
:45:25. > :45:28.recipients of funding. That is as maybe, but we heard schools they're
:45:29. > :45:31.saying that there would havd to put up 25% of the total cost and they
:45:32. > :45:39.have better things to their money on? Different schools and
:45:40. > :45:42.headteachers will come to dhfferent conclusions having disgusted with
:45:43. > :45:47.their local council. The government has put together an advice `nd
:45:48. > :45:51.support package for those schools was facing particular probldms. That
:45:52. > :45:56.has been funded to the tune ?10 million. So schools in Essex which
:45:57. > :46:01.feel they have a particular problem can go there for advice and on the
:46:02. > :46:06.basis of evidence collected from the Phailin schemes, perhaps agree a
:46:07. > :46:11.solution for their circumst`nces. Shouldn't you as a party made a
:46:12. > :46:17.better job `` have made a bdtter job of checking the circumstancds
:46:18. > :46:21.beforehand? The pilot startdd in 2009, so it has been tested on the
:46:22. > :46:27.ground. Liberal Democrats are happy that we are able to deliver those in
:46:28. > :46:31.government five years later. But how able are you to deliver it when they
:46:32. > :46:35.schools says they do not know how they will deliver it? The policy
:46:36. > :46:41.will be delivered because most headteachers are very posithve about
:46:42. > :46:44.the announcement, as our local councils. Essex County Council
:46:45. > :46:49.issued a press release in rdsponse to this policy, and said help
:46:50. > :46:53.welcome the ?3 million was because it would enable schools to deliver.
:46:54. > :46:57.I think it is important that families will see the benefhts of
:46:58. > :47:01.savings in their pockets, and children will be able to eat
:47:02. > :47:04.healthily and improve their attainment. Pilots have shown that
:47:05. > :47:13.children who are well fed in school do better in school. Will you not
:47:14. > :47:17.have to backpedal and go back to schools and say that they whll have
:47:18. > :47:26.to give children a sandwich instead of a meal? There is no question of
:47:27. > :47:29.backpedalling on this policx. It will start in September and we have
:47:30. > :47:34.written it into legislation so there is a clear expectation now for
:47:35. > :47:37.schools. This is a long`terl policy that they have confidence in
:47:38. > :47:42.investing in and supporting on the ground. I think it is welcole that
:47:43. > :47:45.heads will be able to work with local councils and the Department
:47:46. > :47:51.for Education to make sure that children benefit. This has `lready
:47:52. > :48:01.been labelled as some commentators as a problem policy. This could be
:48:02. > :48:09.the next tuition fees issue? I don't agree with that. One dashes some
:48:10. > :48:14.people have come out very critically, but they were already
:48:15. > :48:18.critics. Ministers set policy and they said their policy on the basis
:48:19. > :48:22.of the evidence. The pilot schemes that took place in 2009 provided
:48:23. > :48:30.ministers with the evidence they needed to give this policy the
:48:31. > :48:34.go`ahead. Thank you for joining us. Gavin Shuker, let's talk about the
:48:35. > :48:44.principle of this. A free hot meal, a good idea? Yes, it was a good
:48:45. > :48:47.idea. We put up a pilot when we were in power to see what the issues
:48:48. > :48:55.would be. One of the issues was if you don't have a kitchen, you can't
:48:56. > :49:03.deliver it. It is unworkabld? It sounds like in Nick Clegg cock up.
:49:04. > :49:15.But this is a coalition govdrnment problem, because you traded it off
:49:16. > :49:19.against marriage tax? We tr`ded it off because they wanted somdthing
:49:20. > :49:23.and we finish up with something that is a not thought out policy. What
:49:24. > :49:29.will happen now, will there be backpedalling? Well, it looks
:49:30. > :49:35.like... How can a school produce hot meals without a kitchen? Nick Clegg
:49:36. > :49:42.has got form on this. He has announced things which have no
:49:43. > :49:51.chance... David Cameron announces things that cannot be taken through.
:49:52. > :49:57.The pasty tax, selling the forest? Those policies could have h`ppened.
:49:58. > :50:03.You cannot deliver from a khtchen that does not exist. Simon Wright
:50:04. > :50:09.said that this is another coalition car crash. Michael Gove found out
:50:10. > :50:18.before it was announced that it was going to be announced. Nick Clegg
:50:19. > :50:23.did not calculated. He did not factor in building more provision.
:50:24. > :50:30.So if you were in power, yot would not go through with it? You said
:50:31. > :50:35.that the pilots happened in 200 . It is in legislation now, so if we are
:50:36. > :50:40.in government, sometime next year... You don't need to worry
:50:41. > :50:48.about that! Oh, thank you vdry much. What will you do `` what will
:50:49. > :50:52.they do? I think they will get a limited roll`out and there were
:50:53. > :50:58.presented as a triumph. But many kids will miss out. If it is a good
:50:59. > :51:03.idea, it will be rolled out. But clearly, there have to be
:51:04. > :51:08.exceptions. Is it good enough to give children a freak cold leal if
:51:09. > :51:12.they hot milk cannot be provided? The reality is that that is what
:51:13. > :51:18.will be divided. They cannot knock up a kitchen in seven months. Where
:51:19. > :51:22.my son goes to school, they have hot milk. Sometimes `` they havd hot
:51:23. > :51:28.meals. Sometimes he takes a sandwich because he does not like thd meal.
:51:29. > :51:32.Burgers and chips are not necessarily the most healthx food.
:51:33. > :51:36.And Apple might be better. We would ask what you have for breakfast
:51:37. > :51:39.Now, it may seem pretty obvhous that elderly people will need more health
:51:40. > :51:42.care, so you might expect that funding would be higher in places
:51:43. > :51:46.with more pensioners. But you'd be wrong. Suffolk MP Therese Coffey has
:51:47. > :51:50.criticised the funding formtla used to calculate the amount of loney
:51:51. > :51:59.given to GPs for patient care. She's claims that elderly people hn her
:52:00. > :52:04.constituency are missing out. When I think NHS England turned its back on
:52:05. > :52:08.the needs of elderly patients, when its targets head in the sand on the
:52:09. > :52:11.dawning impact of an ageing population, and when it crulbles to
:52:12. > :52:18.political pressure from the Labour Party, he was able `` an opportunity
:52:19. > :52:22.for the board of NHS England to put right the funding formula so that it
:52:23. > :52:25.will provide equally for people in terms of need and access to
:52:26. > :52:28.services, and frankly, I thhnk they bottled it. New line And it's not
:52:29. > :52:31.just in Suffolk ` this affects many parts of the region. Accordhng to
:52:32. > :52:34.NHS England, Norfolk has ond of the highest proportions of older people.
:52:35. > :52:41.27% of people in North Norfolk are over 65, yet the allocation per head
:52:42. > :52:47.is only ?1,260 a year. Whild in Knowsley, in Merseyside, whdre only
:52:48. > :52:57.15% of the population is elderly. They get ?1,539 per head, almost
:52:58. > :53:02.?300 more. Historically, rural counties were deemed to be healthier
:53:03. > :53:06.places. Therefore they were given less money. That has now
:53:07. > :53:11.fundamentally changed because in urban areas, you have as a rule a
:53:12. > :53:18.population profile that is xounger than Enron areas. That is why the
:53:19. > :53:22.funding formula has not caught up. At the end of that debate, there was
:53:23. > :53:27.no promise that the funding for Miller would change, do you think it
:53:28. > :53:34.should? I think to Reza is right to bring that up. In my county, we have
:53:35. > :53:40.had the most badly funded PCT in the country. The Formula one is changed
:53:41. > :53:48.to help things but because of a report, we never got what wd wanted.
:53:49. > :53:55.We have a series of local hdalth services funded at different rates,
:53:56. > :53:57.which is fundamentally wrong. We lose out in Northamptonshird. It is
:53:58. > :54:06.no good having another formtla if you don't change that for Mhller.
:54:07. > :54:13.You would have to take it away from areas that have got it. The
:54:14. > :54:16.allegation is that it was the Labour Party who would deprivation in urban
:54:17. > :54:25.areas ahead of the needs of elderly people in rural areas. Broadly
:54:26. > :54:28.correct. It is around the f`ct that health inequality blights lhves In
:54:29. > :54:37.my constituency today, you `re less likely to live in a `` to a ripe old
:54:38. > :54:43.age than in your constituency. 1035 of funding per elderly person where
:54:44. > :54:49.11.3% of the population are elderly. Is that enough? I will fight for as
:54:50. > :54:54.much as I can get for my constituency as Peter would do for
:54:55. > :55:00.his and as to raise coffee hs doing for hers. But you have to m`ke a
:55:01. > :55:05.judgement. There are more elderly people in the areas but thex are
:55:06. > :55:07.more healthy than people living in my constituency. They are stffering
:55:08. > :55:15.with long`term conditions lhke diabetes. Do we need a
:55:16. > :55:20.recalculation? We need a fahrer formula and a government with the
:55:21. > :55:25.courage to implement it. Thd problem is not that before Miller is wrong,
:55:26. > :55:29.it is that you don't get pahd what before Miller says. Other areas get
:55:30. > :55:32.over funded. We are committdd to spending more money on the house
:55:33. > :55:38.service but there is no point in doing that if it is not spent in the
:55:39. > :55:43.right area. I do agree with that. Bedfordshire Police have suffered
:55:44. > :55:47.because we were expecting to get more money because we are a growing
:55:48. > :55:54.county. But because other areas are getting smaller, they are gdtting
:55:55. > :55:59.more money. Should this isste rise above party policy? Absolutdly. We
:56:00. > :56:04.need to have a proper debatd as to where we should best and best you'll
:56:05. > :56:10.cash for the health service. It was reviewed back in December or
:56:11. > :56:15.November last year and that was what Dr Coffey was complaining about
:56:16. > :56:20.Don't look at before Miller, look at what they are being paid. `` don't
:56:21. > :56:23.look at the formula. Now it's time for the round`up of
:56:24. > :56:29.our political week with Deborah McGurran, all in 60 seconds.
:56:30. > :56:34.Monitor is to send a team into the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in King's
:56:35. > :56:40.Lynn ` which is millions of pounds in debt and and has met onlx one
:56:41. > :56:44.target in a 32`point action plan. And a huge blow for Corby this week
:56:45. > :56:48.as Solway Foods announced that the 400 jobs it had hoped to kedp will
:56:49. > :56:54.have to go after all, bringhng the total to 900 job losses when the the
:56:55. > :56:57.factory closes down this sulmer This is really disappointing but it
:56:58. > :57:00.is particularly bad news for the families which will be directly
:57:01. > :57:03.affected. The rail campaign for faster trains
:57:04. > :57:08.between Norwich and London held a summit in Essex. We want better
:57:09. > :57:11.quality of service, faster journey times in particular.
:57:12. > :57:14.And welcome news for the Wellingborough MP Peter Bond and his
:57:15. > :57:16.wife Jenny. They won't face benefit fraud charges after a dispute with
:57:17. > :57:26.Northamptonshire County Council over residential care for Mrs Bone's
:57:27. > :57:29.mother. The people will not believe the Chancellor when he says...
:57:30. > :57:32.While a slip of the tongue by Ipswich MP Ben Gummer lightdned the
:57:33. > :57:43.mood on the Tory benches during the welfare cap debate. That is as close
:57:44. > :57:49.as he will get! Peter Byrne, that must have been a
:57:50. > :57:53.huge relief. Relief is not the right word. There are certainly no
:57:54. > :58:01.elation. The problem that wd came across that we had 14 months left in
:58:02. > :58:08.limbo. The problem `` interdsting thing about those months is we found
:58:09. > :58:11.out about how many other people were left in limbo. So many of mx
:58:12. > :58:19.constituents were eventuallx told they had done nothing wrong. What
:58:20. > :58:22.about a possible civil action? I have never had a contractual
:58:23. > :58:29.relationship with the Countx Council. There was a nation`l
:58:30. > :58:34.newspaper article and what they said was wrong. Gavin Shuker, yot voted
:58:35. > :58:42.for the welfare cat, do you support it? Well, there was a polithcal bear
:58:43. > :58:46.trap set by the Chancellor `nd I have no intention wandering straight
:58:47. > :58:50.into it. We are talking abott capping the total sum, but not
:58:51. > :58:55.changing the total welfare. Jules Osborne would have had to come back
:58:56. > :59:00.to the `` George Osborne wotld have had to come back to the house to ask
:59:01. > :59:06.to extend it. Do you not fedl that as a Labour MP, you wore dilutive
:59:07. > :59:13.the brand? It is not what L`bour stand for? Well, what does Labour
:59:14. > :59:16.stand for? Nobody knows! Labour stands for being credible on the
:59:17. > :59:24.economy. For getting people back into work. We will have to leave it
:59:25. > :59:28.there. Thank you both very luch That's it. Keep in touch vi` our
:59:29. > :59:29.website where you will also find links to Deborah McGurran's blog
:59:30. > :59:33.with political updates. boundaries. Sorry, run out of time.
:59:34. > :59:41.Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you.
:59:42. > :59:51.Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP
:59:52. > :59:54.finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin
:59:55. > :59:57.with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London
:59:58. > :00:01.about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs
:00:02. > :00:02.about the fact that they won a few back in 1993. That was enough to
:00:03. > :00:05.cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think
:00:06. > :00:10.the big difference with the National front in France is that they are
:00:11. > :00:14.building on decades of successful that they finished second in the
:00:15. > :00:19.presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they
:00:20. > :00:23.were versions of their politics So they are building on a lot whereas
:00:24. > :00:32.the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country.
:00:33. > :00:37.It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of
:00:38. > :00:43.its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not
:00:44. > :00:47.as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in
:00:48. > :00:54.the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same
:00:55. > :01:00.about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is
:01:01. > :01:03.pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about
:01:04. > :01:06.immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to
:01:07. > :01:09.an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council
:01:10. > :01:14.houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive.
:01:15. > :01:19.We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As
:01:20. > :01:26.extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the
:01:27. > :01:33.comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left
:01:34. > :01:39.as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement
:01:40. > :01:50.that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest.
:01:51. > :01:53.Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its
:01:54. > :01:58.act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge
:01:59. > :02:04.and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist
:02:05. > :02:09.party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have
:02:10. > :02:15.voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and
:02:16. > :02:23.France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when
:02:24. > :02:29.they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because
:02:30. > :02:38.the next election was 2007. 200 they came second when Jean-Marie Le
:02:39. > :02:48.Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put
:02:49. > :02:53.them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much
:02:54. > :02:57.harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than
:02:58. > :03:11.there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If
:03:12. > :03:15.Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the
:03:16. > :03:19.centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the
:03:20. > :03:25.second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does
:03:26. > :03:28.and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's
:03:29. > :03:32.doing masterfully is election as well. I think what she's
:03:33. > :03:36.right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics.
:03:37. > :03:40.She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes
:03:41. > :03:46.from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who
:03:47. > :03:50.would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current
:03:51. > :03:54.president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties
:03:55. > :03:59.have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP
:04:00. > :04:03.are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at
:04:04. > :04:09.issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are
:04:10. > :04:14.quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes
:04:15. > :04:18.from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer
:04:19. > :04:21.for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are
:04:22. > :04:26.rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they
:04:27. > :04:31.become part of the system that people were voting against in the
:04:32. > :04:35.first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour
:04:36. > :04:39.Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday
:04:40. > :04:44.Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you
:04:45. > :04:49.are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the
:04:50. > :04:54.Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I
:04:55. > :04:58.have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record
:04:59. > :05:04.briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the
:05:05. > :05:11.mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been
:05:12. > :05:18.a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.
:05:19. > :05:25.There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and
:05:26. > :05:29.they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit
:05:30. > :05:32.still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the
:05:33. > :05:38.coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary
:05:39. > :05:41.changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.
:05:42. > :05:48.What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this
:05:49. > :05:52.has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a
:05:53. > :05:57.very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and
:05:58. > :06:02.then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The
:06:03. > :06:05.British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party
:06:06. > :06:11.political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people
:06:12. > :06:14.from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a
:06:15. > :06:20.bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being
:06:21. > :06:25.unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining
:06:26. > :06:29.characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a
:06:30. > :06:33.lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the
:06:34. > :06:36.budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the
:06:37. > :06:40.signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me.
:06:41. > :06:46.The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has
:06:47. > :06:52.the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price
:06:53. > :06:56.freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these
:06:57. > :07:00.energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for
:07:01. > :07:03.that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up
:07:04. > :07:10.with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student
:07:11. > :07:13.tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price
:07:14. > :07:17.freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the
:07:18. > :07:24.Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming
:07:25. > :07:32.the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick
:07:33. > :07:38.through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in
:07:39. > :07:43.2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what
:07:44. > :07:47.campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the
:07:48. > :07:52.scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be
:07:53. > :07:56.winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was
:07:57. > :08:02.because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87
:08:03. > :08:05.or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What
:08:06. > :08:09.they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government
:08:10. > :08:13.because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or
:08:14. > :08:17.February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of
:08:18. > :08:23.animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must
:08:24. > :08:27.be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological
:08:28. > :08:33.differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how
:08:34. > :08:38.little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have
:08:39. > :08:43.outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he
:08:44. > :08:48.is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There
:08:49. > :08:54.was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And
:08:55. > :09:02.Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions
:09:03. > :09:07.is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those
:09:08. > :09:10.two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not
:09:11. > :09:15.done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed
:09:16. > :09:20.Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with
:09:21. > :09:24.the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the
:09:25. > :09:29.debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.
:09:30. > :09:33.We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s
:09:34. > :09:41.remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate.
:09:42. > :09:49.I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe...
:09:50. > :09:56.Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with
:09:57. > :10:05.you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the
:10:06. > :10:11.drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We have 485 million people... It is
:10:12. > :10:17.simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I
:10:18. > :10:24.don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the
:10:25. > :10:30.facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better
:10:31. > :10:40.here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great
:10:41. > :10:45.not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two.
:10:46. > :10:51.Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this
:10:52. > :10:55.week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate
:10:56. > :11:02.for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the
:11:03. > :11:06.other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult
:11:07. > :11:10.argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he
:11:11. > :11:14.distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just
:11:15. > :11:18.closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU
:11:19. > :11:23.immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away
:11:24. > :11:28.from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us
:11:29. > :11:34.to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his
:11:35. > :11:38.reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.
:11:39. > :11:44.I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage
:11:45. > :11:48.would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public
:11:49. > :11:56.favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question
:11:57. > :12:03.is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to
:12:04. > :12:09.that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a
:12:10. > :12:13.binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on
:12:14. > :12:16.opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg
:12:17. > :12:21.needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very
:12:22. > :12:27.well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he
:12:28. > :12:32.said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to
:12:33. > :12:34.talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had
:12:35. > :12:40.made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do
:12:41. > :12:43.not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,
:12:44. > :12:47.it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or
:12:48. > :12:50.without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and
:12:51. > :12:56.also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an
:12:57. > :13:03.hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but
:13:04. > :13:07.Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal
:13:08. > :13:12.with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has
:13:13. > :13:16.honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.
:13:17. > :13:20.That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime
:13:21. > :13:24.every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1
:13:25. > :13:31.o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.